Suggestion: Dungeon proving grounds?

subtlezeroub17_ESO · August 2016

I see that a lot of people are upset about tanks not being tanks, healers not being healers and DPS...not being dps. Dungeon finder is the anathema to a lot of people I've talked to because of that fact. Even vet mode.

Maybe Zen should implement a "proving ground" type thing for both normal levels and vet levels that tests your build for each position before you can queue as one. If anyone has played FFXIV or WoW you'll know what I'm talking about.

It would be a mini arena type setting that levels you at CP160 like usual but tests your build to see if it's ready for dungeons as well as teaching you basic skills. This would help those who's builds aren't exactly...suitable for a role. Like those Templars who queue as healers without resto staffs and only use breath of life (which is worse if they're stamina templars) or those tanks who don't use a sword and shield or any kind of taunts/cc/defensives or even those DPS'ers who have builds all over the place.

So, when they realize they cannot tank with a bow and daggers with no taunt. Then maybe they'll try the DPS proving ground and do well there instead.

It would also teach newbies what the role actually entails so they aren't in dungeons frustrating everyone else. Now, it doesn't mean it would make all builds the same. I enjoy the way ESO allows you to create your own personalized build. But in group play, uniqueness is great but it should at least be tailored to a certain role(s).

What do you guys think?

subtlezeroub17_ESO · August 2016

I only bring this post up because there are people who really "don't" know what exactly it means to be a healer or a tank. They might be new to MMO's or the whole "build your own character" coin has left them with a build without a purpose.

In the end, it benefits all because people will have more successful random queues and newbies to mmo's in general will actually know how to play their role when they cannot pass a proving ground and therefore there will be less group wiping when 1 or more group members end up getting frustrated.

Now, that I've hit 50 and seen things, I've certainly noticed newbie tanks ,newbie healers and even newbie DPS who aren't exactly using proper tools and they usually get called out on (rudely) by the vets who know their build and know how to play and are trying to get through the dungeon quickly. That or the group simply ditches them because they're tired of dying.

subtlezeroub17_ESO · August 2016

bump

starkerealm · August 2016

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

What do you guys think?

I think that, in general, TSW was a terrible MMO. But it's gatekeeper did have the best AI approximation of DPSers I've ever seen in MMO. On the healer challenge, they'd stand in the red, and blame you when they died.

In relation to your comment, the problem isn't players thinking they can tank with a DW/Bow build. It's that they've realized if they select all three roles they'll get attached to a group faster than if they're honest. And lying about your role isn't punished at all.

subtlezeroub17_ESO · August 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

What do you guys think?

I think that, in general, TSW was a terrible MMO. But it's gatekeeper did have the best AI approximation of DPSers I've ever seen in MMO. On the healer challenge, they'd stand in the red, and blame you when they died.

In relation to your comment, the problem isn't players thinking they can tank with a DW/Bow build. It's that they've realized if they select all three roles they'll get attached to a group faster than if they're honest. And lying about your role isn't punished at all.

Which is illogical because lying about your role just to get a group will just land yoi without a group in the end when everyone leaves becausw the tank or healer arent actual tanks or healers.

Abeille · August 2016

I like this idea, and I would use this feature to test my own builds and practicing different roles.

starkerealm · August 2016

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

What do you guys think?

I think that, in general, TSW was a terrible MMO. But it's gatekeeper did have the best AI approximation of DPSers I've ever seen in MMO. On the healer challenge, they'd stand in the red, and blame you when they died.

In relation to your comment, the problem isn't players thinking they can tank with a DW/Bow build. It's that they've realized if they select all three roles they'll get attached to a group faster than if they're honest. And lying about your role isn't punished at all.

Which is illogical because lying about your role just to get a group will just land yoi without a group in the end when everyone leaves becausw the tank or healer arent actual tanks or healers.

Expecting logical behavior from PUG Randos? That way lies madness, my friend.

EDIT: It's distinctly possible that those same randoms that are queuing for all three roles are also 13 years old, and simply don't understand how the trinity works or why it's important in a dungeon. They just want to kill **** now.

subtlezeroub17_ESO · August 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

What do you guys think?

I think that, in general, TSW was a terrible MMO. But it's gatekeeper did have the best AI approximation of DPSers I've ever seen in MMO. On the healer challenge, they'd stand in the red, and blame you when they died.

In relation to your comment, the problem isn't players thinking they can tank with a DW/Bow build. It's that they've realized if they select all three roles they'll get attached to a group faster than if they're honest. And lying about your role isn't punished at all.

Which is illogical because lying about your role just to get a group will just land yoi without a group in the end when everyone leaves becausw the tank or healer arent actual tanks or healers.

Expecting logical behavior from PUG Randos? That way lies madness, my friend.

EDIT: It's distinctly possible that those same randoms that are queuing for all three roles are also 13 years old, and simply don't understand how the trinity works or why it's important in a dungeon. They just want to kill **** now.

See. Having a proving ground will weed them out so they do understand the trinity.

Like, the tank PG would be about using defensives properly, taunting properly and applying CC properly while trying to protect an AI party

The healer could be about awareness, applying debuffs/cleanses and generally keeping everyone alive in different circumstances.

DPS could be about situational awareness, adhering to mechanics and avoiding the red stuff as much as possible while being able to keep a steady DPS going within a time limit.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The general thought would be that if you cannot pass the proving ground, then your build isn't meant for randoms. You'd have to apply some effort into tailoring a build for a role just to have to queue as a tank/healer/dps which would then deter those who's builds aren't tailored to a role.

subtlezeroub17_ESO · August 2016

Abeille wrote: »

I like this idea, and I would use this feature to test my own builds and practicing different roles.

That could also be a really good benefit to those looking for a "DPS" test as well. Generally, I feel that the proving grounds would pretty much certify that you could pull off at least average DPS.

Heck, they could even create a leader board for it too and make it competitive if they really wanted it.

Lolssi · August 2016

How would this work? Everytime you group for a dungeon you have to go through some 5-10 minute trial?

subtlezeroub17_ESO · August 2016

Lolssi wrote: »

How would this work? Everytime you group for a dungeon you have to go through some 5-10 minute trial?

Just once for normal dungeons and another for Vet dungeons.

You'd be welcome to use the proving grounds again to test out builds but you'd only have to pass it once for that particular role. So if you wanted to only DPS for normals, you'd have to do the DPS proving ground once and pass to unlock it. Like wise for the other two roles. But if you passed the normal dungeon proving grounds and hit lvl50 CP 50 and wanted to do vet dungeons, you'd have to pass a vet level proving ground that would obviously be much more intense than normal level trials.

Mojmir · August 2016

My son learned the Trinity from skyforges tutorial,which although basic,worked.

ArchMikem · August 2016

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

bump

Real quick, bumping your own thread on the same day you create it is generally an internet forum no-no. Just saying, don't want you getting in trouble.

But I agree with you, it sounds like it would only be beneficial. Like a qualification of sorts. If you've passed the Proving Grounds then people looking for Dungeon groups will at least feel a little better about you being capable or not.

dennissomb16_ESO · August 2016

The proving ground in WoW was good and bad. Yes it does make you go through a decent test to see if you can handle a particular role from gear to skill set etc. Unfortunately it had two glaring holes in the concept. If you had a group that was mostly guild members but you needed 1 pug your entire group couldn't que if they had not "passed" the proving grounds. For me that is an issue because we preferred to take guild groups into dungeons and learn inside for fun and potential loot.

The biggest issue is proving grounds don't actually weed out the destructive puggers. The people who need to race through dungeons causing deaths or tanks who pull before people even recover from previous fight, healers who think they are dps machines etc. Essentially the a**hats which are the bane of pugs

Proving grounds are not a bad idea but in WoW for example they have removed them as a requirement because of the bad feedback

Solariken · August 2016

This is a really great suggestion. I love the idea. SOO simple to develop, yet really effective at educating players who need it which is better for the entire playerbase in the long run.

@ZOS_RichLambert this totally deserves a /lurk

CasNation · August 2016

Yes please. This should have been a part of the undaunted questline in the first place. The best way to do it, I think, is have the normal quest unlock at level 10. You then have the choice of test you want to take (or all 3). You could then try it out. If you fail (at tanking, for example), turuk could give you a sword and shield and some heavy armor (just basic stuff) so you actually had the tools to do the job on a basic level.

I agree that these should be repeatable in some way though. Maybe accessible through the group finder.

subtlezeroub17_ESO · August 2016

CasNation wrote: »

Yes please. This should have been a part of the undaunted questline in the first place. The best way to do it, I think, is have the normal quest unlock at level 10. You then have the choice of test you want to take (or all 3). You could then try it out. If you fail (at tanking, for example), turuk could give you a sword and shield and some heavy armor (just basic stuff) so you actually had the tools to do the job on a basic level.

I agree that these should be repeatable in some way though. Maybe accessible through the group finder.

Ah yes, that is certainly a good idea making it part of the undaunted quest line!

Ghost-Shot · August 2016

Yeah I actually thought that was a cool feature in WoW, before you can queue for heroics you have to complere Silver Proving Grounds.

QUEZ420 · August 2016

We definitely need some sort of learning curve tied to que as each role cuz most ppl in this game, especially console, jus don't understand grp mechanics of a standard mmo the holy trinity. Most but not all lol haven't even played anything other then a single player rpg til this. I've ran across many that say "I loved Skyrim, this is my first mmo." I agree 100% for a proving grounds plz!

Bouldercleave · August 2016

I love the idea of a practice / training grounds to learn the roles properly and what is really involved in group settings.

I hate the idea of a "test" ground so you can prove you're elite enough not to slow the group down. I would pass on that program.

subtlezeroub17_ESO · August 2016

Bouldercleave wrote: »

I love the idea of a practice / training grounds to learn the roles properly and what is really involved in group settings.

I hate the idea of a "test" ground so you can prove you're elite enough not to slow the group down. I would pass on that program.

Its not about being elite though. Its about having average skill in your role to be decent in groups.

The PG wouldnt be hard for the sake of being hard. It would be the same difficulty you would expect in a normal or veteran style dungeon.

SJD_Phoenix · August 2016

In general I like this idea. I have 2 concerns however:

1. Zenimax has a hard time making existing content consistently playable. This proving group would use up more man hours making sure it's not buggy or glitching and actually works as intended.

2. I have 9 characters. I really don't want to have to do this same content 9 times just to Que for a pug. Don't get me wrong I might use it as a dps test but for someone who can solo normal dungeons I'm not doing ANOTHER tutorial to prove to people that I can dps a 4 man dungeon. However they would have to be careful how you implement the skip process as just because someone can dps on a sorc doesn't mean they'll be success on a dk.

The only other problem is you'll still get people queuing for all 3. I could pass the tank, healer and dps test in my sorcerer so can I Que for all 3 then? Bearing in mind I'd have to change my cp around and gear. Point I'm making is people could qualify their character for all 3 and still Que for all 3 without having a character specced for all 3.

The way I see it you need to minimalise it down to only being able to select 2 roles. That way you may get a bit more honesty.

NBrookus · August 2016

Abeille wrote: »

I like this idea, and I would use this feature to test my own builds and practicing different roles.

A logical starting point would be test dummies for DPS, but tanks and healers could use some love here, too. A proving ground is a great idea. I always feel guilty if I am trying a new setup that I am unsure how will perform or how I should maximize it when I am with a random group.

I should be an optional thing, though, not a mandatory tutorial. Something like the intro to Cyrodiil -- you can skip it if you want.

QUEZ420 · August 2016

Nah it should be mandatory per account wide per role played so therefore I don't have to do it repeatedly on all my alts. If it wuz an "optional thing" noobs would still skip it n b ultra bad in dungeons still, so in the end it would b pointless lol. Mandatory per role qued as, 1 time per account per role.

idk · August 2016

The general idea OP presents would be good. Strong players would clear if without issue and if would be good experience for those that would be challenged.

I rarely use GF as I'm fortunate to be a member of a few great guilds. I do queue for fun sometimes to see what I get. Often I get decent groups though sometime I'm tank/dps/heals all in one so I understand what can happen.

elantaura · August 2016

Something is better than nothing and I am over Queing as a DPS to have to heal, I. waited as a DPS I should not have to heal well go out of my way too or just be let down.
Just don't forget, to teach ( reteach if you include wailing prison) interrupt and block. I sware they are the two most under utalizaed skills in pugs. It's like some people are not aware or their exsistance in all seriousness and sincerity.
if I see interrupts in particular, going on in a group I am 90% sure that we will complete.also make healers heal and maybe keep an npc alive, tanks tank and understand what a taunt is, and DPS actually kill things in a time that's not to say they need a gazillion damage just please make sure hypothetically meat suit the tank is not out dpsing them and stuff is actually dying.

Can we also suggest explaining things such as bringing soul gems to group dungeons as desirable, and that it's not a great idea to stand in any circles except the big ones your healer is casting. That quickest way out of some is dodge dodge, and maybe what dodge is on that note. Then with circles that you stand in the middle, of the double circle one - not on the life draining rim. And maybe that synergys so are your friend.

I have no issues with being tested once on each character in whichever role I apply for, if the cumulative time I spend doing it initially, saves me time by wiping less in the long run. So if it's implemented it must be effective at teaching if that's required. I.e do you want to take test with or without the tutorial? etc. would make it quick for those who know, and hopefully thorough for those that don't.

subtlezeroub17_ESO · August 2016

I'm glad there is an overall positive vibe about this suggestion!

UltimaJoe777 · August 2016

So the idea is to basically have everyone "prove" they are the role they signed up as am I right? Well I do believe this suggestion would not work out for that reason as it also punishes those that honestly ARE the role they sign up as and thus wastes their time. I shall propose an alternate suggestion because I, too, feel trolling through Group/Dungeon Finder ruins a lot of people's experience with the feature.

Zenimax stated Update 11 now displays what role each ability is better suited for. Well, what if this escalated to the player? Let's say someone slots 3 Tank skills, 1 Damage skill, and 2 Healing skills. Somewhere in the nameplates for this player it would say they are a Tank above all else because they have more Tank abilities slotted than anything. If they have 2 of each slotted they could be called a Freelancer or something. Now of course this is considerably vague and people COULD just activate more than 12 abilities and swap during the dungeon as they see fit but at the same time those looking to speed run said dungeon would know something was up and probably kick that person anyway. The initial entry is what people look at so something like this, depending on how well ability classification works in Update 11, should help weed out the imposters.

subtlezeroub17_ESO · August 2016

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

So the idea is to basically have everyone "prove" they are the role they signed up as am I right? Well I do believe this suggestion would not work out for that reason as it also punishes those that honestly ARE the role they sign up as and thus wastes their time. I shall propose an alternate suggestion because I, too, feel trolling through Group/Dungeon Finder ruins a lot of people's experience with the feature.

Zenimax stated Update 11 now displays what role each ability is better suited for. Well, what if this escalated to the player? Let's say someone slots 3 Tank skills, 1 Damage skill, and 2 Healing skills. Somewhere in the nameplates for this player it would say they are a Tank above all else because they have more Tank abilities slotted than anything. If they have 2 of each slotted they could be called a Freelancer or something. Now of course this is considerably vague and people COULD just activate more than 12 abilities and swap during the dungeon as they see fit but at the same time those looking to speed run said dungeon would know something was up and probably kick that person anyway. The initial entry is what people look at so something like this, depending on how well ability classification works in Update 11, should help weed out the imposters.

Its not just about proving though. For example there are honest tanks that dont have the mechanical know how and might not realize that you need cc or when to use defensives. The PG is there to remedy that.

That way you wont have groups with tanks that have no shred of clue on how to actually tank eventhough they are trying.

UltimaJoe777 · August 2016

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

So the idea is to basically have everyone "prove" they are the role they signed up as am I right? Well I do believe this suggestion would not work out for that reason as it also punishes those that honestly ARE the role they sign up as and thus wastes their time. I shall propose an alternate suggestion because I, too, feel trolling through Group/Dungeon Finder ruins a lot of people's experience with the feature.

Zenimax stated Update 11 now displays what role each ability is better suited for. Well, what if this escalated to the player? Let's say someone slots 3 Tank skills, 1 Damage skill, and 2 Healing skills. Somewhere in the nameplates for this player it would say they are a Tank above all else because they have more Tank abilities slotted than anything. If they have 2 of each slotted they could be called a Freelancer or something. Now of course this is considerably vague and people COULD just activate more than 12 abilities and swap during the dungeon as they see fit but at the same time those looking to speed run said dungeon would know something was up and probably kick that person anyway. The initial entry is what people look at so something like this, depending on how well ability classification works in Update 11, should help weed out the imposters.

Its not just about proving though. For example there are honest tanks that dont have the mechanical know how and might not realize that you need cc or when to use defensives. The PG is there to remedy that.

That way you wont have groups with tanks that have no shred of clue on how to actually tank eventhough they are trying.

To be fair I tank by Taunting and absorbing damage with no CC involved lol I just focus on pulling aggro. Then again, I honestly wonder if the definition of Tanking in this community is not skewed from the real one...

CasNation · August 2016

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

So the idea is to basically have everyone "prove" they are the role they signed up as am I right? Well I do believe this suggestion would not work out for that reason as it also punishes those that honestly ARE the role they sign up as and thus wastes their time. I shall propose an alternate suggestion because I, too, feel trolling through Group/Dungeon Finder ruins a lot of people's experience with the feature.

Zenimax stated Update 11 now displays what role each ability is better suited for. Well, what if this escalated to the player? Let's say someone slots 3 Tank skills, 1 Damage skill, and 2 Healing skills. Somewhere in the nameplates for this player it would say they are a Tank above all else because they have more Tank abilities slotted than anything. If they have 2 of each slotted they could be called a Freelancer or something. Now of course this is considerably vague and people COULD just activate more than 12 abilities and swap during the dungeon as they see fit but at the same time those looking to speed run said dungeon would know something was up and probably kick that person anyway. The initial entry is what people look at so something like this, depending on how well ability classification works in Update 11, should help weed out the imposters.

I disagree with this. There are just too many edge cases where this system could go wrong.

I also don't really think that requiring a test is "punishing" for experienced competent players. It is a one time qualification run that would take less than 10 minutes. So what? As mentioned already, it would serve to teach more than it would serve to exclude. The point is not that you keep out the people who are bad, the point is to teach the bad people how to play their role so there are more people to play with who are compentant.