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Why does this game have to be all about damage?
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LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lightninvash wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »The thing is, facerolling everything is what the community demands.
When Zos introduces some mechanic-based challenges, forums are full of people crying and demanding nerfs so they can just pew-pew through the dungeon without paying attention to anything.
And I'm against the softcaps. I remember the game when they were in place, and I dont want this again. At least now we have a lot of viable build options, not just full raids of mag dks and same gear for everyone.
used to play a game where you could face roll everything. The Devs didn't want the game being played that way where 1 person could solo any dungeon if they had the right setup. So they added mechanics to specifically stop the builds that were causing one person to beat anything. Like making 2 people stand on a point and etc.
The main reason people could do this is the high damage that could be done per second. People built for APS( attacks per second) combined with a life steal they would get more hp back than bosses could deal to them by face tanking(5 attacks per second was the highest you could achieve and kill bosses in under 15secs).
They added a buff to bosses that took reduced damage from normal attacks but regular damage from skills(not saying this would work for ESO but its the idea). Some mechanics they added if you reduced a boss hp too much too quickly it would be a wipe due to the mechanic. An example was boss spawns some sort of mini boss creature and if you took hp down too fast there would be several mini bosses and would effectively wipe you out.
Some bosses if you killed too quickly would stun you and deal a huge amount of damage to the group possibly taking out 1 or 2 people or so. Some things could be the boss goes impervious to damage at certain stages of the fight and you have to do x y and z to make the boss vulnerable again. Similar concepts could be made into ESO if the DEVS decided this is how they wanted the game to play.
I broke up my post to make it easier to read and feel less like a wall of text but for those who don't want to read it all; there are many ways to have some boss mechanics worked into the game that wouldn't prove to be difficult. It could just change how people think of the builds and start using less damage builds and more rounded builds for mechanics.
The problem is not the dps.
The problem is when Zos adds any kind of mechanic that requires teamwork (like in WGT and ICP), people start QQing about this content being too hard and keep crying until it gets nerfed. Which, of course, is not really helpful since even in the current state some mecahnics are unskippable. And pugs are still wiping at flesh sculptor and planar inhibitor.
There is one instance where team coordination is required and you cant beat it just by stacking and dpsing - vMoL. And only a small number of guilds managed to beat it. Many people are stuck on the second boss, not because of dps, but because it has unskippable mechanics and one person that isnt paying attention can wipe the whole group.
I did a lot of normal MoL pugs when farming certain items, and most of people jsut dont understand how mechanics work even after explanations. Just because they can still beat it, even if they kill half of group with wrong colors. And thats the problem with players mentality - they see any kind of challenging mechanics in a very negative way and if they see such mechanic, they demand nerfs so they can roflstomp everything again, without thinking and without teamwork.
Imo, a game msut encourage people to play by rules. This nerfing policy is just toxic for the game and for the community.
Just nerfing dps will just lead to more neft cries, nothing else.Edited by LadyNalcarya on July 21, 2016 3:24PMDro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU6 -
Milvan✭✭✭✭✭
✭I totally disagree with op. The game requires a perfect balance between damage/resourse pool/resourse recovery, especially in pvp.“Kings of the land and the sky we are; proud gryphons.” Stalker stands, the epitome of pride. Naked and muscular, his wings widen and his feet dig in as if he alone holds down the earth and supports the heavens, keeping the two ever separate.”
Gryphons guild - @Milvan,0 -
Mettaricana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Its all about dmg because no soft caps to help make players diversify it lets us focus to hard into one thing and that one thing becomes the bible we jave to follow or become outcasts... I'd welcome those caps back in a heartbeat...1 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mettaricana wrote: »Its all about dmg because no soft caps to help make players diversify it lets us focus to hard into one thing and that one thing becomes the bible we jave to follow or become outcasts... I'd welcome those caps back in a heartbeat...
Oh yeah, raids were so diverse back in the days... mag dks and mag dks with templar healers and maybe a sorc and a nb for utility.
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU2 -
CombatPrayer✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Because without damage, nobody and nothing dies, right ?
But look at pvp, tanks and tankiness are the current meta.
Correct, someone has to be doing damage.
It's a bit annoying, though, that the way the game currently plays, that it's overly important for everyone to do as much damage as possible, as fast as possible, to melt a boss. Such game mechanics don't really leave room for anything other than max or near-max, damage spec.
As for "tanks" in PVP, most have their attributes weighted in either stamina or magicka depending on their build - so they still do a lot of damage. I don't know or have seen many players who invest heavily in health - because it hurts to spread your attribute points around or make a hybrid.
I agree with this a lot. It's so hard core damage oriented that you see a ton of min max builds. As a healer who would like to do something more interesting than min max and be able to feel more viable on gold, this is less than ideal and has made me realize my time on this game is quite limited. Healing a group of min maxers can be insane. You look away from their bars for a second and they end up dead. If you're lucky they don't rant at you for it.
I played dragon's dogma for almost two years straight and I think that game was more challenging than this one except for all the restrictions imposed here to make it artificially more challenging. There, you could play any build and still do well at end game. You could be balanced and enjoy the heck out of it without having to deal with constant death from min maxing. Here, you could never do balanced and get through gold with a balanced group. Dragon's Dogma in their dark arisen release updated so all builds were viable. It was the smartest thing they did. What's the point of having a system that allows for infinite ways to build a character if in the end you are really only building it one way but through different avenues. Sure, you need damage to kill something, but when it's pretty much all min maxing and then going crazy with gears to compensate, that seems a little strange.
Even worse is that you have a glut of void crap on the market because even at 160 that's a pretty common drop. But to get 160 gear you need to have ten times as much. So you are bogged down under the weight of 140 crap while 160 drops even at 160 take ten times longer to build a pile to make your full armor. Now if you didn't have to min max, that would be fine. But when you really need to min max it's pretty screwy.1 -
DPG76✭✭✭true , the ideal is that it should be role based like healer , tank and dps
healer and tank don't do much damage but one heals and other taunts and takes damage while dps wrecks normally
in ESO all these roles are a bit minimalised to hybrid like roles in my opinion0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »Mettaricana wrote: »Its all about dmg because no soft caps to help make players diversify it lets us focus to hard into one thing and that one thing becomes the bible we jave to follow or become outcasts... I'd welcome those caps back in a heartbeat...
Oh yeah, raids were so diverse back in the days... mag dks and mag dks with templar healers and maybe a sorc and a nb for utility.
My lil' nightblade had great veil generation so I could join in with the cool kids! Yay so much fun only being there for veil....Edited by Shunravi on July 21, 2016 4:19PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
CombatPrayer✭✭✭✭DeepPlayGamer wrote: »true , the ideal is that it should be role based like healer , tank and dps
healer and tank don't do much damage but one heals and other taunts and takes damage while dps wrecks normally
in ESO all these roles are a bit minimalised to hybrid like roles in my opinion
I do far more damage after playing with my build. Now if I am not in a very high dps group my spear shards seems to be the one sure thing that wrecks mobs. I wouldn't think that would be the case, but when I test it and stop using it, damage will slow to a snails pace and I work twice as hard as a healer while the lower damage doing non min maxers struggle with them. And the true tank whacks with his sword or shield every now and again while holding himself as the taunting fortress that tanks generally are.
I don't see the point of even bothering with tanks anymore. They are hard as hell to find these days and I've been in a ton of groups that roll with 3 dps and either a tank/healer or just a healer. There are only a few enemies that it really matters with as long as someone can distract them and it's not a low damage group. Why? Because even the taunts in this game are on the lame side as most of us well know by now. What i wouldn't give for a really good taunt that you didn't have to spam like crazy to get the enemy's attention. Taunt is supposed to mean something, ya know?0 -
subtlezeroub17_ESO✭✭✭✭*One of the things they need to do to improve the PvE experience is to bring back the need for tanks and strategic pulls.
*And for gods sake, give them an AoE taunt already as well as additional threat tools and boost mitigation tools.
*I think Healers are in a good place actually. You can take any class and make it a healer with its own "spice" that makes them different. Maybe classes could be more fleshed out in relation to healing styles though.
Sorcerers remind me of the scholar class from FFXIV. Give them tools to interact with pets as far as healing goes.
Dragon knight healers remind me of a mitigation and shield healer. So they should be more into shields and buffs.
Templars are definitely a more resource restorative class with the way they help dps with stamina and magicka.
N blades sound more offensive and HoT based so play around that fact.
*Threat tables need to be readdressed
As for tanks, only sorc and NB need addressing.
Sorc tanks should definitely be a mobile tanks. They should really play on this hurricane and wind aspect they are giving to stamina builds in sorcery
Night blades should be reliant on active mitigation. Kinda like a dodge tanks. Almost vampiric in nature.
Until then, pve content will remain a zerg fest. I used to be a hard core WoW raider back in the day until recently when I quit after MoP and have now become more casual and strictly console gaming too.
I like the casual nature of this game but I do find the pve kinda unfocused. It has a lot of potential if they give it more attention.Edited by subtlezeroub17_ESO on July 21, 2016 4:33PM2 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DeepPlayGamer wrote: »true , the ideal is that it should be role based like healer , tank and dps
healer and tank don't do much damage but one heals and other taunts and takes damage while dps wrecks normally
in ESO all these roles are a bit minimalised to hybrid like roles in my opinion
Most part of the game consists of solo questing though. And full-time tanks and healers would be forced to progress much slower if swapping role wasnt that easy...Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU1 -
DPG76✭✭✭autumnsongbird ,
Yes i agree that in every game players will find a way to clear a dungeon or whatever grouped instance tru bypassing specific points and bosses just by dps rendering the other roles mostly thank useless .. it's a classic0 -
Blackleopardex✭✭✭✭Talking PVE here:
High dps/damage is making everything faster and people like fast, one reason. Also many people believe high dps is required to complete dungeons. However very little in this game requires high damage/dps...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TXghSpgcs4 6 NB: Tank, Healer, Mag/Stam PVE&PVP.
I don't read long signatures: https://www.youtube.com/user/Blackleopardex1 -
s7732425ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »Lightninvash wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »The thing is, facerolling everything is what the community demands.
When Zos introduces some mechanic-based challenges, forums are full of people crying and demanding nerfs so they can just pew-pew through the dungeon without paying attention to anything.
And I'm against the softcaps. I remember the game when they were in place, and I dont want this again. At least now we have a lot of viable build options, not just full raids of mag dks and same gear for everyone.
used to play a game where you could face roll everything. The Devs didn't want the game being played that way where 1 person could solo any dungeon if they had the right setup. So they added mechanics to specifically stop the builds that were causing one person to beat anything. Like making 2 people stand on a point and etc.
The main reason people could do this is the high damage that could be done per second. People built for APS( attacks per second) combined with a life steal they would get more hp back than bosses could deal to them by face tanking(5 attacks per second was the highest you could achieve and kill bosses in under 15secs).
They added a buff to bosses that took reduced damage from normal attacks but regular damage from skills(not saying this would work for ESO but its the idea). Some mechanics they added if you reduced a boss hp too much too quickly it would be a wipe due to the mechanic. An example was boss spawns some sort of mini boss creature and if you took hp down too fast there would be several mini bosses and would effectively wipe you out.
Some bosses if you killed too quickly would stun you and deal a huge amount of damage to the group possibly taking out 1 or 2 people or so. Some things could be the boss goes impervious to damage at certain stages of the fight and you have to do x y and z to make the boss vulnerable again. Similar concepts could be made into ESO if the DEVS decided this is how they wanted the game to play.
I broke up my post to make it easier to read and feel less like a wall of text but for those who don't want to read it all; there are many ways to have some boss mechanics worked into the game that wouldn't prove to be difficult. It could just change how people think of the builds and start using less damage builds and more rounded builds for mechanics.
The problem is not the dps.
The problem is when Zos adds any kind of mechanic that requires teamwork (like in WGT and ICP), people start QQing about this content being too hard and keep crying until it gets nerfed. Which, of course, is not really helpful since even in the current state some mecahnics are unskippable. And pugs are still wiping at flesh sculptor and planar inhibitor.
There is one instance where team coordination is required and you cant beat it just by stacking and dpsing - vMoL. And only a small number of guilds managed to beat it. Many people are stuck on the second boss, not because of dps, but because it has unskippable mechanics and one person that isnt paying attention can wipe the whole group.
I did a lot of normal MoL pugs when farming certain items, and most of people jsut dont understand how mechanics work even after explanations. Just because they can still beat it, even if they kill half of group with wrong colors. And thats the problem with players mentality - they see any kind of challenging mechanics in a very negative way and if they see such mechanic, they demand nerfs so they can roflstomp everything again, without thinking and without teamwork.
Imo, a game msut encourage people to play by rules. This nerfing policy is just toxic for the game and for the community.
Just nerfing dps will just lead to more neft cries, nothing else.
I have done a lot of pug nMoLs. It is shocking to see that 99% of raid leaders have no understanding at all of the 2nd boss. They overcomplicate the entire fight and repeatedly make wrong calls.
The second fight (nMoL) can be fully explained in three short sentences. But the amount of groups that spend 10 minutes going over strategies and whatnot is just mind boggling. This is why ZOS cannot make fights that require more coordination because people just don't take the time to learn the mechanics.2 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GreenhaloX wrote: »Maybe I'm missing a bit of concept of this thread, but damages are what fighting the enemies is about. You want highest damage traits as you can get, so to take out the boss and his minions as quickly as possible and move on.. not tinkering and toying with them.. right?
No, that's not what I want.
I would like to be able to make it a battle of attrition and endurance, and I would like to have to have the tank draw targets away so that a companion can get in a good snipe.
I'm lucky enough to play with a group who are in it for fun and willing to explore options.
That's it, I would like to have multiple options, not just "one best way".Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Blackleopardex wrote: »Talking PVE here:
High dps/damage is making everything faster and people like fast, one reason. Also many people believe high dps is required to complete dungeons. However very little in this game requires high damage/dps...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TXghSpgcs4
Yup. You can even complete most things without gear if your team knows their stuff.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I don't care how much damage I do or don't do, or what people think of me not doing enough damage, I will do as I damn well please against all odds (and evens
)! That said I have 2 pure DPS characters, a dedicated Healer, and a dedicated Tank and all of them are awesome in their own way (although I REALLY wish my Stamina DPS had a good damage shield to help him take hits like my Magicka DPS does...). The rest are not specialized. Edited by UltimaJoe777 on July 21, 2016 7:31PMGuildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Because a Nightblade failed to kill a tank in 1v1 once, and we've been paying for it ever since.
I kid, but only kind of. The DPS Race in this game seems to just keep getting worse. Passive mitigation is just awful, active mitigation costs are crazy-high with incoming damage and CCs being constant. Kill 'em before they kill you is the only choice.
This is the only MMO I've ever played where tank was not the hands-down easiest choice for solo play. That would be a good thing if it hadn't been replaced by a system where DPS is the best choice by a factor so big it's dumbfounding.Edited by MasterSpatula on July 21, 2016 7:53PM"A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle1 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »Mettaricana wrote: »Its all about dmg because no soft caps to help make players diversify it lets us focus to hard into one thing and that one thing becomes the bible we jave to follow or become outcasts... I'd welcome those caps back in a heartbeat...
Oh yeah, raids were so diverse back in the days... mag dks and mag dks with templar healers and maybe a sorc and a nb for utility.
That wasn't because of soft caps it was because of class balance was more infavorinfavor of magic builds but specificallyspecifically mDKs and Templars stam builds didn't really exist back then.
Templars used to have blinding flashes and mDKs had perma wings and could take on Zergs. Soft caps can be pit back in the game and we all would fine.
This insta gib dmg stacking Meta is cancerous right now everyone wears the exact same gear same skills CP allocation etc in PVP duels suck 1vXers fighting potatoes one shots people and roll behind rocks and Zergs just steam roll spamming AoE spellsPower Wealth And Influence.1 -
Lightninvash✭✭✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »Lightninvash wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »The thing is, facerolling everything is what the community demands.
When Zos introduces some mechanic-based challenges, forums are full of people crying and demanding nerfs so they can just pew-pew through the dungeon without paying attention to anything.
And I'm against the softcaps. I remember the game when they were in place, and I dont want this again. At least now we have a lot of viable build options, not just full raids of mag dks and same gear for everyone.
used to play a game where you could face roll everything. The Devs didn't want the game being played that way where 1 person could solo any dungeon if they had the right setup. So they added mechanics to specifically stop the builds that were causing one person to beat anything. Like making 2 people stand on a point and etc.
The main reason people could do this is the high damage that could be done per second. People built for APS( attacks per second) combined with a life steal they would get more hp back than bosses could deal to them by face tanking(5 attacks per second was the highest you could achieve and kill bosses in under 15secs).
They added a buff to bosses that took reduced damage from normal attacks but regular damage from skills(not saying this would work for ESO but its the idea). Some mechanics they added if you reduced a boss hp too much too quickly it would be a wipe due to the mechanic. An example was boss spawns some sort of mini boss creature and if you took hp down too fast there would be several mini bosses and would effectively wipe you out.
Some bosses if you killed too quickly would stun you and deal a huge amount of damage to the group possibly taking out 1 or 2 people or so. Some things could be the boss goes impervious to damage at certain stages of the fight and you have to do x y and z to make the boss vulnerable again. Similar concepts could be made into ESO if the DEVS decided this is how they wanted the game to play.
I broke up my post to make it easier to read and feel less like a wall of text but for those who don't want to read it all; there are many ways to have some boss mechanics worked into the game that wouldn't prove to be difficult. It could just change how people think of the builds and start using less damage builds and more rounded builds for mechanics.
The problem is not the dps.
The problem is when Zos adds any kind of mechanic that requires teamwork (like in WGT and ICP), people start QQing about this content being too hard and keep crying until it gets nerfed. Which, of course, is not really helpful since even in the current state some mecahnics are unskippable. And pugs are still wiping at flesh sculptor and planar inhibitor.
There is one instance where team coordination is required and you cant beat it just by stacking and dpsing - vMoL. And only a small number of guilds managed to beat it. Many people are stuck on the second boss, not because of dps, but because it has unskippable mechanics and one person that isnt paying attention can wipe the whole group.
I did a lot of normal MoL pugs when farming certain items, and most of people jsut dont understand how mechanics work even after explanations. Just because they can still beat it, even if they kill half of group with wrong colors. And thats the problem with players mentality - they see any kind of challenging mechanics in a very negative way and if they see such mechanic, they demand nerfs so they can roflstomp everything again, without thinking and without teamwork.
Imo, a game msut encourage people to play by rules. This nerfing policy is just toxic for the game and for the community.
Just nerfing dps will just lead to more neft cries, nothing else.
So basically it is a l2p issue and no one knows how to do that?
0 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Anti_Virus wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »Mettaricana wrote: »Its all about dmg because no soft caps to help make players diversify it lets us focus to hard into one thing and that one thing becomes the bible we jave to follow or become outcasts... I'd welcome those caps back in a heartbeat...
Oh yeah, raids were so diverse back in the days... mag dks and mag dks with templar healers and maybe a sorc and a nb for utility.
That wasn't because of soft caps it was because of class balance was more infavorinfavor of magic builds but specificallyspecifically mDKs and Templars stam builds didn't really exist back then.
Templars used to have blinding flashes and mDKs had perma wings and could take on Zergs. Soft caps can be pit back in the game and we all would fine.
This insta gib dmg stacking Meta is cancerous right now everyone wears the exact same gear same skills CP allocation etc in PVP duels suck 1vXers fighting potatoes one shots people and roll behind rocks and Zergs just steam roll spamming AoE spells
When softcaps were in place, yes, you were capped by your class' abilities. If they will implement softcaps again, what do you think will happen to mag sorcs that wont be able to stack 44k mana anymore? They're kinda behind stam classes already. And stam classes are that op because of some crazy gear combos and some skill adjustments in latest patches, its not about max stats. I dont wanna name those op stamina things cause I dont want to turn it into "nurf that" thread, but everyone who's interested in stam dps already knows what I'm talking about.
Also, dont forget, that when softcaps were in place, we had dynamic ulti regen to balance things a bit.Lightninvash wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »Lightninvash wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »The thing is, facerolling everything is what the community demands.
When Zos introduces some mechanic-based challenges, forums are full of people crying and demanding nerfs so they can just pew-pew through the dungeon without paying attention to anything.
And I'm against the softcaps. I remember the game when they were in place, and I dont want this again. At least now we have a lot of viable build options, not just full raids of mag dks and same gear for everyone.
used to play a game where you could face roll everything. The Devs didn't want the game being played that way where 1 person could solo any dungeon if they had the right setup. So they added mechanics to specifically stop the builds that were causing one person to beat anything. Like making 2 people stand on a point and etc.
The main reason people could do this is the high damage that could be done per second. People built for APS( attacks per second) combined with a life steal they would get more hp back than bosses could deal to them by face tanking(5 attacks per second was the highest you could achieve and kill bosses in under 15secs).
They added a buff to bosses that took reduced damage from normal attacks but regular damage from skills(not saying this would work for ESO but its the idea). Some mechanics they added if you reduced a boss hp too much too quickly it would be a wipe due to the mechanic. An example was boss spawns some sort of mini boss creature and if you took hp down too fast there would be several mini bosses and would effectively wipe you out.
Some bosses if you killed too quickly would stun you and deal a huge amount of damage to the group possibly taking out 1 or 2 people or so. Some things could be the boss goes impervious to damage at certain stages of the fight and you have to do x y and z to make the boss vulnerable again. Similar concepts could be made into ESO if the DEVS decided this is how they wanted the game to play.
I broke up my post to make it easier to read and feel less like a wall of text but for those who don't want to read it all; there are many ways to have some boss mechanics worked into the game that wouldn't prove to be difficult. It could just change how people think of the builds and start using less damage builds and more rounded builds for mechanics.
The problem is not the dps.
The problem is when Zos adds any kind of mechanic that requires teamwork (like in WGT and ICP), people start QQing about this content being too hard and keep crying until it gets nerfed. Which, of course, is not really helpful since even in the current state some mecahnics are unskippable. And pugs are still wiping at flesh sculptor and planar inhibitor.
There is one instance where team coordination is required and you cant beat it just by stacking and dpsing - vMoL. And only a small number of guilds managed to beat it. Many people are stuck on the second boss, not because of dps, but because it has unskippable mechanics and one person that isnt paying attention can wipe the whole group.
I did a lot of normal MoL pugs when farming certain items, and most of people jsut dont understand how mechanics work even after explanations. Just because they can still beat it, even if they kill half of group with wrong colors. And thats the problem with players mentality - they see any kind of challenging mechanics in a very negative way and if they see such mechanic, they demand nerfs so they can roflstomp everything again, without thinking and without teamwork.
Imo, a game msut encourage people to play by rules. This nerfing policy is just toxic for the game and for the community.
Just nerfing dps will just lead to more neft cries, nothing else.
So basically it is a l2p issue and no one knows how to do that?
LOL.
Youve completely missed my point. Its not that people dont know how to do vMoL or whatever - there are videos already, everyone is free to watch and to ask advice.
Its the game that encourages breaking its rules, which is quite ridiculous. From low levels it teaches players "ok, here's a red circle, but no worries, you can just stand in it", "look, you can interrupt that mob... but actually, why even bother?". So people are just taught to faceroll content and when suddenly it doesnt work, they become frustrated. Just look at forums: everything that is more difficult than just "dps it down" becomes hated. Like vet WGT/ICP... The only dps race here is around 12k (probably much less now), but people were QQing about those dungeons since release (and still do). And without mechanics, the only form of difficulty and competition between players is dps race. And there will be competition either way - even with softcaps, not everyone could pull top dps.
Hardcapping all damage, like some people suggest, is pointless for a game that has leaderboards, and frankly, they can aswell just add "WIN" button so everyone can skip the fights.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU0 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭newtinmpls wrote: »GreenhaloX wrote: »Maybe I'm missing a bit of concept of this thread, but damages are what fighting the enemies is about. You want highest damage traits as you can get, so to take out the boss and his minions as quickly as possible and move on.. not tinkering and toying with them.. right?
No, that's not what I want.
I would like to be able to make it a battle of attrition and endurance, and I would like to have to have the tank draw targets away so that a companion can get in a good snipe.
I'm lucky enough to play with a group who are in it for fun and willing to explore options.
That's it, I would like to have multiple options, not just "one best way".
there will always be a 'one best way'.
tbhf if I see you in a trials group spamming snipe, guess who's getting kicked out of the group?
you spend 5-7hrs EVERY week helping pkayers through this crap and see how patient tou feel toward people goofing off.
no matter how they orientate damage, anyrhing less than t=your best effort will be seen as disreapectful.1 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ep1kMalware wrote: »newtinmpls wrote: »GreenhaloX wrote: »Maybe I'm missing a bit of concept of this thread, but damages are what fighting the enemies is about. You want highest damage traits as you can get, so to take out the boss and his minions as quickly as possible and move on.. not tinkering and toying with them.. right?
No, that's not what I want.
I would like to be able to make it a battle of attrition and endurance, and I would like to have to have the tank draw targets away so that a companion can get in a good snipe.
I'm lucky enough to play with a group who are in it for fun and willing to explore options.
That's it, I would like to have multiple options, not just "one best way".
there will always be a 'one best way'.
tbhf if I see you in a trials group spamming snipe, guess who's getting kicked out of the group?
you spend 5-7hrs EVERY week helping pkayers through this crap and see how patient tou feel toward people goofing off.
no matter how they orientate damage, anyrhing less than t=your expected effort will be seen as disreapectful.
FTFY, and I honestly disagree with this. This is the kind of *** that throws wrenches into social participation. It's also why so many complain about Group Finder. It's not the GF, it's the playerbase. Elitism is out of control if this is how it is across the board.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ep1kMalware wrote: »newtinmpls wrote: »GreenhaloX wrote: »Maybe I'm missing a bit of concept of this thread, but damages are what fighting the enemies is about. You want highest damage traits as you can get, so to take out the boss and his minions as quickly as possible and move on.. not tinkering and toying with them.. right?
No, that's not what I want.
I would like to be able to make it a battle of attrition and endurance, and I would like to have to have the tank draw targets away so that a companion can get in a good snipe.
I'm lucky enough to play with a group who are in it for fun and willing to explore options.
That's it, I would like to have multiple options, not just "one best way".
there will always be a 'one best way'.
tbhf if I see you in a trials group spamming snipe, guess who's getting kicked out of the group?
you spend 5-7hrs EVERY week helping pkayers through this crap and see how patient tou feel toward people goofing off.
no matter how they orientate damage, anyrhing less than t=your best effort will be seen as disreapectful.
you know how much health last boss in maw has? 85,000,000hp
you have 2 dps i the back, adds that spawn, goofu *** animations, buge, bugd, *** BUGS. interface issues when rezzing/synergies, and general mayhem you encounter by following right mechanics that feel impossible due mainly to gameplay issues and you lot want to make this MORE difficult and spend MORE time in these *** holes?
gtfo0 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭also, until you 'get gud' and help other's 'get gud', it's easy to complain. You have to organize groups, this can be extremely hard with trials even with a trials guild. Take them to the trial, spend the day in the trial letting people feel out the mechanics. people rage, get bored, leave, this makes other's leave, then you got to call in replacements.
then, you have to put up with people going afk to do this amd that turning a 2-3hr learning run into a 6 or 7hr all day event. This. This just to get 4 people or so to stick it through and learn the place so they can run it more frequentlt and get better at it.
people who nonstop complain about 'elitests this, elitest that', too kuch deeps, too many people only wanting experienced players.
all those people you complain about actually spend most of thwir fkn time in game filtering through hordes of ingrates and giving them a shot at content just ro have people turn around and qq about it on the forums.
people like this need to do the community a favor amd pkay something else. If it's so bad and you hate it so much, why are you here?Edited by Ep1kMalware on July 22, 2016 4:03AM2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »There are some interesting armor sets and champion point selections available in ESO that could create strategic/fun builds, but because ESO is pretty much all about damage (in both PVE and PVP) I'm hurting my group whenever I stray from a max damage build.
When I equip the cool-looking Maw of the Infernal or spread around champion points, I'm hurting my group because I'm costing my team precious dps. I feel guilty when my group wipes in PVE or dies in PVP because I didn't have a max damage spec that would have helped defeat that boss sooner, or dropped that enemy player faster - because that's how ESO works, it's all about causing damage as fast as possible, or else you're hurting yourself and your team.
It would be fun to see some more unique gameplay elements (that aren't all about damage) get some love - like defiling an enemy. It would be fun to have a viable build where instead of doing any damage at all, we can put all of our points into skills that weaken/debuff an enemy - and have it be powerful enough to be just as worthy as having a max damage build on our team.
Why does this game have to be all about damage?
There are other game play elements. Tanking and healing are not all about damage. Healing is 4 man content is fabulous because one can do damage and heal at the same time. Many tank and heal at the same time also.
As far damage itself, it is an MMO. The goal, the entire premise of this game is to destroy eveil. Not sure what OP is actually looking for but it sounds like a completely different type of game.
As far as not doing damage at all, pretty much a full healer, though heavy attacks with a healing staff do damage. Also, Tanks do some damage with their taunt, but it is not their focus (though some can get some decent damage with 4 man content builds.Edited by idk on July 22, 2016 5:09AM0 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »There are some interesting armor sets and champion point selections available in ESO that could create strategic/fun builds, but because ESO is pretty much all about damage (in both PVE and PVP) I'm hurting my group whenever I stray from a max damage build.
When I equip the cool-looking Maw of the Infernal or spread around champion points, I'm hurting my group because I'm costing my team precious dps. I feel guilty when my group wipes in PVE or dies in PVP because I didn't have a max damage spec that would have helped defeat that boss sooner, or dropped that enemy player faster - because that's how ESO works, it's all about causing damage as fast as possible, or else you're hurting yourself and your team.
It would be fun to see some more unique gameplay elements (that aren't all about damage) get some love - like defiling an enemy. It would be fun to have a viable build where instead of doing any damage at all, we can put all of our points into skills that weaken/debuff an enemy - and have it be powerful enough to be just as worthy as having a max damage build on our team.
Why does this game have to be all about damage?
There are other game play elements. Tanking and healing are not all about damage. Healing is 4 man content is fabulous because one can do damage and heal at the same time. Many tank and heal at the same time also.
As far damage itself, it is an MMO. The goal, the entire premise of this game is to destroy eveil. Not sure what OP is actually looking for but it sounds like a completely different type of game.
As far as not doing damage at all, pretty much a full healer, though heavy attacks with a healing staff do damage. Also, Tanks do some damage with their taunt, but it is not their focus (though some can get some decent damage with 4 man content builds.
yeh, let's save up some coin and get op a [pteorder of thief2 so he can complaim elsewhere!
eso aint a dtealth game.
the storyline is all about finding the best dps buff in all of tamriel and using it to kill molag bal. amirite?0 -
altemriel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Nothing will ever change until damage caps are put in place. Funny because there are mitigation caps but not damage? That's called Wrobel Balance.
"Oh but Ego, people will moan about high TTK!" That's a good thing. Instagibbing is not skill, but prolonged, strategic fights where you have to think and plan your actions on the fly are. Zergs running around mowing down everyone in split second aren't either.
The situation we are now is thanks to glass cannon spamblade moans on the forums we had pre-1.6. Putting them on ignore and aside, fights used to be so much more enjoyable back then (minus the dynamic ulti-gen for AoE skills and Dot's).
the fights are awesome, learn to play!!1 -
jhharvest✭✭✭People are way too scared of nerfs. On the other hand Zos is way too lazy about rolling out patches. Nerfs only hurt because they break classes for months at a time. If bad balance decisions got fixed weekly (or better yet, if PTS testing actually mattered), having small balance adjustments to make sure damage doesn't get out of control would be fine.
Power creep is one contributing factor to elitism and the reason why bosses have millions of HP, leading to needing stronger sets and passives so average players can compete, so then the "good players" complain it's too easy etc. ad infinitum.0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »There are some interesting armor sets and champion point selections available in ESO that could create strategic/fun builds, but because ESO is pretty much all about damage (in both PVE and PVP) I'm hurting my group whenever I stray from a max damage build.
When I equip the cool-looking Maw of the Infernal or spread around champion points, I'm hurting my group because I'm costing my team precious dps. I feel guilty when my group wipes in PVE or dies in PVP because I didn't have a max damage spec that would have helped defeat that boss sooner, or dropped that enemy player faster - because that's how ESO works, it's all about causing damage as fast as possible, or else you're hurting yourself and your team.
It would be fun to see some more unique gameplay elements (that aren't all about damage) get some love - like defiling an enemy. It would be fun to have a viable build where instead of doing any damage at all, we can put all of our points into skills that weaken/debuff an enemy - and have it be powerful enough to be just as worthy as having a max damage build on our team.
Why does this game have to be all about damage?
There are other game play elements. Tanking and healing are not all about damage. Healing is 4 man content is fabulous because one can do damage and heal at the same time. Many tank and heal at the same time also.
As far damage itself, it is an MMO. The goal, the entire premise of this game is to destroy eveil. Not sure what OP is actually looking for but it sounds like a completely different type of game.
As far as not doing damage at all, pretty much a full healer, though heavy attacks with a healing staff do damage. Also, Tanks do some damage with their taunt, but it is not their focus (though some can get some decent damage with 4 man content builds.
What it pretty much boils down to is this... There are underused sets and champion skills in this game because max damage builds are - by far - the most effective way to play the game. Hybrid or tactical builds that aren't all about max damage severely hurt your team.
The game overly-promotes throwing everything you have into damage. Sure, you can tank or heal if you don't want to do damage, but we're severely missing out on a tactical approach play style.
Look at skills that maim, silence, debuff, and defile enemies. These are elements that are already in the game - yet don't get nearly as much love as a max damage build. A defiler build could be just as important in "destroying evil" as a damage dealer, if ZOS didn't make straight-damage-dealing so insanely needed.0 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »There are some interesting armor sets and champion point selections available in ESO that could create strategic/fun builds, but because ESO is pretty much all about damage (in both PVE and PVP) I'm hurting my group whenever I stray from a max damage build.
When I equip the cool-looking Maw of the Infernal or spread around champion points, I'm hurting my group because I'm costing my team precious dps. I feel guilty when my group wipes in PVE or dies in PVP because I didn't have a max damage spec that would have helped defeat that boss sooner, or dropped that enemy player faster - because that's how ESO works, it's all about causing damage as fast as possible, or else you're hurting yourself and your team.
It would be fun to see some more unique gameplay elements (that aren't all about damage) get some love - like defiling an enemy. It would be fun to have a viable build where instead of doing any damage at all, we can put all of our points into skills that weaken/debuff an enemy - and have it be powerful enough to be just as worthy as having a max damage build on our team.
Why does this game have to be all about damage?
There are other game play elements. Tanking and healing are not all about damage. Healing is 4 man content is fabulous because one can do damage and heal at the same time. Many tank and heal at the same time also.
As far damage itself, it is an MMO. The goal, the entire premise of this game is to destroy eveil. Not sure what OP is actually looking for but it sounds like a completely different type of game.
As far as not doing damage at all, pretty much a full healer, though heavy attacks with a healing staff do damage. Also, Tanks do some damage with their taunt, but it is not their focus (though some can get some decent damage with 4 man content builds.
What it pretty much boils down to is this... There are underused sets and champion skills in this game because max damage builds are - by far - the most effective way to play the game. Hybrid or tactical builds that aren't all about max damage severely hurt your team.
The game overly-promotes throwing everything you have into damage. Sure, you can tank or heal if you don't want to do damage, but we're severely missing out on a tactical approach play style.
Look at skills that maim, silence, debuff, and defile enemies. These are elements that are already in the game - yet don't get nearly as much love as a max damage build. A defiler build could be just as important in "destroying evil" as a damage dealer, if ZOS didn't make straight-damage-dealing so insanely needed.
that is fully because: 'target is immune'. on every frackin mob.2