Why does this game have to be all about damage?

GrumpyDuckling

There are some interesting armor sets and champion point selections available in ESO that could create strategic/fun builds, but because ESO is pretty much all about damage (in both PVE and PVP) I'm hurting my group whenever I stray from a max damage build.

When I equip the cool-looking Maw of the Infernal or spread around champion points, I'm hurting my group because I'm costing my team precious dps. I feel guilty when my group wipes in PVE or dies in PVP because I didn't have a max damage spec that would have helped defeat that boss sooner, or dropped that enemy player faster - because that's how ESO works, it's all about causing damage as fast as possible, or else you're hurting yourself and your team.

It would be fun to see some more unique gameplay elements (that aren't all about damage) get some love - like defiling an enemy. It would be fun to have a viable build where instead of doing any damage at all, we can put all of our points into skills that weaken/debuff an enemy - and have it be powerful enough to be just as worthy as having a max damage build on our team.

Why does this game have to be all about damage?

Dracane

Because without damage, nobody and nothing dies, right ?

But look at pvp, tanks and tankiness are the current meta.

GrumpyDuckling

Dracane wrote: »

Because without damage, nobody and nothing dies, right ?

But look at pvp, tanks and tankiness are the current meta.

Correct, someone has to be doing damage.

It's a bit annoying, though, that the way the game currently plays, that it's overly important for everyone to do as much damage as possible, as fast as possible, to melt a boss. Such game mechanics don't really leave room for anything other than max or near-max, damage spec.

As for "tanks" in PVP, most have their attributes weighted in either stamina or magicka depending on their build - so they still do a lot of damage. I don't know or have seen many players who invest heavily in health - because it hurts to spread your attribute points around or make a hybrid.

The Uninvited

Because they don't have soft-caps anymore. A lot of sets were still viable when we had soft-caps, hybrid builds too.

subtlezeroub17_ESO

Because debuffer and CC classes in mmo history are a pain to balance. Especially if that mmo has PvP.

Therefore those Archetypes are ignored.

ScottK1994

I wonder if zenimax ever watched the fights against the Lich King on WoW. That was the most epic rpg experience ive ever had and I never even completed it hahahah(well I did but not on the real way. It was the patch that prepares for the next expansion that I managed it)

ScottK1994

Paragon Vs Lich King 25 Hardmode World First: https://youtu.be/RSeVCw3hVgQ

The camera isn't the best it's quite zoomed out but it's an epic fight(which they somehow make look easy)

ScottK1994

Does ESO have world first achievements btw?

altemriel

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

There are some interesting armor sets and champion point selections available in ESO that could create strategic/fun builds, but because ESO is pretty much all about damage (in both PVE and PVP) I'm hurting my group whenever I stray from a max damage build.

When I equip the cool-looking Maw of the Infernal or spread around champion points, I'm hurting my group because I'm costing my team precious dps. I feel guilty when my group wipes in PVE or dies in PVP because I didn't have a max damage spec that would have helped defeat that boss sooner, or dropped that enemy player faster - because that's how ESO works, it's all about causing damage as fast as possible, or else you're hurting yourself and your team.

It would be fun to see some more unique gameplay elements (that aren't all about damage) get some love - like defiling an enemy. It would be fun to have a viable build where instead of doing any damage at all, we can put all of our points into skills that weaken/debuff an enemy - and have it be powerful enough to be just as worthy as having a max damage build on our team.

Why does this game have to be all about damage?

maybe you just have to find the right group who is willing to experiment with you

subtlezeroub17_ESO

ScottK1994 wrote: »

Paragon Vs Lich King 25 Hardmode World First: https://youtu.be/RSeVCw3hVgQ

The camera isn't the best it's quite zoomed out but it's an epic fight(which they somehow make look easy)

Meh, I prefer Algalon.

Anyway, its gonna take some time and smoothing out of the mechanics before Zeni comes close to making raids and PvE content at Blizzards level.

Junipus

Dracane wrote: »

Because without damage, nobody and nothing dies, right ?

But look at pvp, tanks and tankiness are the current meta.

But those tanks are still geared around max damage. Heavy armour might be the new meta in PvP but taking your tanking setup into Cyrodiil will make you only useful for donating AP

ScottK1994

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

ScottK1994 wrote: »

Paragon Vs Lich King 25 Hardmode World First: https://youtu.be/RSeVCw3hVgQ

The camera isn't the best it's quite zoomed out but it's an epic fight(which they somehow make look easy)

Meh, I prefer Algalon.

Anyway, its gonna take some time and smoothing out of the mechanics before Zeni comes close to making raids and PvE content at Blizzards level.

Haha yeah but that video was good because it showed a high damaging mechanic that was also interesting to fight against.

I agree but I also think it takes practice at attempts anyway. Blizzard got good because they were releasing raids every 5-6 months or so. They started off being way too difficult for the average player and then they managed to find a streamline of difficulty. Even if zenimax went into superhard mode and frustrated everyone it would probably work out for their best in their experience in making interesting stuff(and also make players better and stronger companions)

ScottK1994

This is off topic but Ulduar in 3.1 was hard as hell omg(glad and sad that I didn't take part in the old 40 man raid days. Looked awesome but I'd have underperformed for sure)

pecheckler

The min-max damage output meta should be replaced with a variety of utility abilities. Of course a final decision would need made about whether or not the game will be getting an alternate spec (CP/morphs/gear) options for super-fast build switching.

ScottK1994

pecheckler wrote: »

The min-max damage output meta should be replaced with a variety of utility abilities. Of course a final decision would need made about whether or not the game will be getting an alternate spec (CP/morphs/gear) options for super-fast build switching.

I agree with alternate gear that you can set and switch but this game seems to work with having to make a choice on your CP and morphs, allowing multiple choices makes it less unique and basically less eso. If it ever got to a point where there should be dual spec CP/morph systems it would be at a time when we had like 800max CP and it would have to cost a lot. On wow dual spec was cheap and while it was convenient I feel it slowly caused me to abstain from having a set build. I'd constantly change them, for no reason sometimes. It shouldn't be like that

Ep1kMalware

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

There are some interesting armor sets and champion point selections available in ESO that could create strategic/fun builds, but because ESO is pretty much all about damage (in both PVE and PVP) I'm hurting my group whenever I stray from a max damage build.

When I equip the cool-looking Maw of the Infernal or spread around champion points, I'm hurting my group because I'm costing my team precious dps. I feel guilty when my group wipes in PVE or dies in PVP because I didn't have a max damage spec that would have helped defeat that boss sooner, or dropped that enemy player faster - because that's how ESO works, it's all about causing damage as fast as possible, or else you're hurting yourself and your team.

It would be fun to see some more unique gameplay elements (that aren't all about damage) get some love - like defiling an enemy. It would be fun to have a viable build where instead of doing any damage at all, we can put all of our points into skills that weaken/debuff an enemy - and have it be powerful enough to be just as worthy as having a max damage build on our team.

Why does this game have to be all about damage?

they have sets like that already. Also ehat about.. no.l nvm.

susmitds

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

I don't know or have seen many players who invest heavily in health - because it hurts to spread your attribute points around or make a hybrid.

Look at the Blazing Shield Templars.

GreenhaloX

Maybe I'm missing a bit of concept of this thread, but damages are what fighting the enemies is about. You want highest damage traits as you can get, so to take out the boss and his minions as quickly as possible and move on.. not tinkering and toying with them.. right?

Egonieser

Nothing will ever change until damage caps are put in place. Funny because there are mitigation caps but not damage? That's called Wrobel Balance.
"Oh but Ego, people will moan about high TTK!" That's a good thing. Instagibbing is not skill, but prolonged, strategic fights where you have to think and plan your actions on the fly are. Zergs running around mowing down everyone in split second aren't either.
The situation we are now is thanks to glass cannon spamblade moans on the forums we had pre-1.6. Putting them on ignore and aside, fights used to be so much more enjoyable back then (minus the dynamic ulti-gen for AoE skills and Dot's).

Lysette

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing a bit of concept of this thread, but damages are what fighting the enemies is about. You want highest damage traits as you can get, so to take out the boss and his minions as quickly as possible and move on.. not tinkering and toying with them.. right?

There is some contradiction in this - a lot complain it is too easy - but at the same time, they try all, to make it that easy by going for even higher dps all the time. This is like saying "I hate mushrooms" while trying at the same time to eat them as quickly as possible.

Bashev

Dracane wrote: »

Because without damage, nobody and nothing dies, right ?

But look at pvp, tanks and tankiness are the current meta.

This meta that you call tanking meta is based on 2 sets that are bugged. Reactive and malubeth. When ZoS fix them, we will be back to the kill and run away meta.

Animal_Mother

susmitds wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

I don't know or have seen many players who invest heavily in health - because it hurts to spread your attribute points around or make a hybrid.

Look at the Blazing Shield Templars.

I would but I can't find any. Blazing Shield just tickles opponents in PVP, now; unlike 1.5 where it could hit like a truck.

nine9six

Kids like big numbers on screen.

Shunravi

It's how they balanced and designed stuff. Interesting mechanics are just too hard, and you get qq...

LadyNalcarya

The thing is, facerolling everything is what the community demands.
When Zos introduces some mechanic-based challenges, forums are full of people crying and demanding nerfs so they can just pew-pew through the dungeon without paying attention to anything.
And I'm against the softcaps. I remember the game when they were in place, and I dont want this again. At least now we have a lot of viable build options, not just full raids of mag dks and same gear for everyone.

Wifeaggro13

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

There are some interesting armor sets and champion point selections available in ESO that could create strategic/fun builds, but because ESO is pretty much all about damage (in both PVE and PVP) I'm hurting my group whenever I stray from a max damage build.

When I equip the cool-looking Maw of the Infernal or spread around champion points, I'm hurting my group because I'm costing my team precious dps. I feel guilty when my group wipes in PVE or dies in PVP because I didn't have a max damage spec that would have helped defeat that boss sooner, or dropped that enemy player faster - because that's how ESO works, it's all about causing damage as fast as possible, or else you're hurting yourself and your team.

It would be fun to see some more unique gameplay elements (that aren't all about damage) get some love - like defiling an enemy. It would be fun to have a viable build where instead of doing any damage at all, we can put all of our points into skills that weaken/debuff an enemy - and have it be powerful enough to be just as worthy as having a max damage build on our team.

Why does this game have to be all about damage?

Yep its called lazy development. No aggro table, no meaningful or required cc CC , no strategical pulls pull one pull the room, the whole game is based on ranged DPS for the most part. Group content is beeing dumbed down to appease this design and the magica stam balance is ridiculous. Heavy armor is not ever needed and all the group content is better done with four DPS.

Dracane

Junipus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Because without damage, nobody and nothing dies, right ?

But look at pvp, tanks and tankiness are the current meta.

But those tanks are still geared around max damage. Heavy armour might be the new meta in PvP but taking your tanking setup into Cyrodiil will make you only useful for donating AP

But this is because heavy armor is too good. You don't even loose sustain and damage anymore when you make use of the last 2 passives of heavy armor. I am aware that they still deal insane damage while being hard to kill.

I miss the era of squishy DDs.

Smasherx74

In PvE crits are much more effective than DMG at a certain point.

Stamplars hit a 2.0 crit multiplier with 3-4k wep damage.

In PvP crits are nerfed and it's also about survival, you want things that keep you alive. You can lag to 1fps and not be able to fight at all but if you're capable of self sustain and avoiding snares and stuff you can rely on others to take care of it for you.

If you can actually play PvP, self sustain is the only way you're going to 1vX unless you're using proxy and kill a group of low health/res people.

josefcifkaeb17_ESO

Stages in Maelstrom Arena that require you to find a mechanic to kill the boss or mobs are the most fun for me. I really enjoy tactics, wish more content in the game depended more on the knowledge and good execution of tactics instead of how much dps you can do. Zerg is one of the most boring things in mmo's if not accompanied by tactics.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Dracane wrote: »

Because without damage, nobody and nothing dies, right ?

But look at pvp, tanks and tankiness are the current meta.

No no no no no there is no tank meta period all those players who are calling them selves "tanks" are just using the malubeth cheese build thats the meta not tanking.

Lightninvash

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

The thing is, facerolling everything is what the community demands.
When Zos introduces some mechanic-based challenges, forums are full of people crying and demanding nerfs so they can just pew-pew through the dungeon without paying attention to anything.
And I'm against the softcaps. I remember the game when they were in place, and I dont want this again. At least now we have a lot of viable build options, not just full raids of mag dks and same gear for everyone.

used to play a game where you could face roll everything. The Devs didn't want the game being played that way where 1 person could solo any dungeon if they had the right setup. So they added mechanics to specifically stop the builds that were causing one person to beat anything. Like making 2 people stand on a point and etc.

The main reason people could do this is the high damage that could be done per second. People built for APS( attacks per second) combined with a life steal they would get more hp back than bosses could deal to them by face tanking(5 attacks per second was the highest you could achieve and kill bosses in under 15secs).

They added a buff to bosses that took reduced damage from normal attacks but regular damage from skills(not saying this would work for ESO but its the idea). Some mechanics they added if you reduced a boss hp too much too quickly it would be a wipe due to the mechanic. An example was boss spawns some sort of mini boss creature and if you took hp down too fast there would be several mini bosses and would effectively wipe you out.

Some bosses if you killed too quickly would stun you and deal a huge amount of damage to the group possibly taking out 1 or 2 people or so. Some things could be the boss goes impervious to damage at certain stages of the fight and you have to do x y and z to make the boss vulnerable again. Similar concepts could be made into ESO if the DEVS decided this is how they wanted the game to play.

I broke up my post to make it easier to read and feel less like a wall of text but for those who don't want to read it all; there are many ways to have some boss mechanics worked into the game that wouldn't prove to be difficult. It could just change how people think of the builds and start using less damage builds and more rounded builds for mechanics.