Guild trader bids out of control. Need a fix for it.

CombatPrayer · July 2016

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Mortehl wrote: »

Do you know what a license to sell hot dogs costs in Central Park in nyc? Starts at 250 -Thousand- per year. Give you one guess why...

its called competition isn't it? its how most economies work

current situation seems fine.... the richer trade guilds get the better spots. the members of those guilds got rich by having good stuff to sell. the fact that there are other rich guilds close by (thinking craglorn as a for instance) keeps the price on goods competitive. seems fine to me.

what was the question?.

edit to add:

the high price on some of the sites also serves to siphon of some of the gold in game.... helping to keep a cap of the economy.

Big flaw with this is that those guilds generally stay very hard to get into. I was lucky to get into one. But what about other people. I have people in my guild who have asked about merchants and we can't invite them because they are full. So what that means is the rich that were here a while get to stay where they are and sell in good locations while newer players hope to get a spot at some point when others are cleared out. Some of the rich guilds as best as I can tell don't clear out that many. So when I get asked about invites to them, I can't help someone newer to the game out because the guild is full to 500. That's a massive problem and one more reason why you need more traders.

Unsent.Soul · July 2016

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Mortehl wrote: »

Do you know what a license to sell hot dogs costs in Central Park in nyc? Starts at 250 -Thousand- per year. Give you one guess why...

its called competition isn't it? its how most economies work

current situation seems fine.... the richer trade guilds get the better spots. the members of those guilds got rich by having good stuff to sell. the fact that there are other rich guilds close by (thinking craglorn as a for instance) keeps the price on goods competitive. seems fine to me.

what was the question?.

I'm afraid its not as simple as you make it out to be.

Paying 5K in dues, and selling 4K weekly is wasted endeavor faced by many in this game.

Since most people lack a simple mechanism called "empathy", the system works just fine (for them), screw everyone else.

actually its even simpler than i made it out to be..... money goes to money. that's it.

if you are paying 5k to sell 4k then you are either in the wrong place or selling the wrong things - that is not the fault of the system.

and empathy dosn't come into it.

Your response is perfect. Thank you for validating.

"I make money with the current system, to hell with everyone else."

Did you stop to think that not everyone is selling gold tempers, or other high value materials/motifs? How many people just want to sell a couple recipes each week?

As far as empathy, look past yourself and look at the community as a whole.

If you want to sell a couple items a week being in a trading guild is worthless. If you don't care or don't have enough items to make a profit, how is that anyone's fault other than your own?

Trading guilds and selling items isn't meant for everyone.... Stop making it seem like it should.

Ah yes, so your saying the ability to make fair market gold isn't meant for everyone.

For most people not in a trade guild: How do they sell that extra glass motif? Do you feel 9 gold is a fair price at a Vendor?

Can you not do it yourself? Jesus do you want me to sell it for you in 1 out of 3 trade guilds I'm in?

Msg people, join area chat, go to large areas and barter with people. If your not willing to do any leg work yourself how can you expect any profit?

When glass motif fragments were just released, I found someone that bought every one I had. We kept this agreement going for a month and I made a lot of gold. Didn't have any traders at that time but I didn't let it stop me or just give up.

I'm speaking hypothetically. I'm in some trade guilds and do very, very well for myself.

I'm thinking of the majority of players that aren't in the 6-10 guilds that are well run and get good locations from week to week.

Your recommendations are noble and possible, it seems that a better system should be implemented.

I do agree with your last statement and don't take my words as demeaning at all. ZOS has been quiet with anything in regards to new stalls/more stalls or an overhaul that's becoming more of a necessity each day.

CombatPrayer · July 2016

On the gold siphoning issue.... more traders is still better.

10 traders costing 1 million each pulls 10 mill from game.

20 traders costing 750,000 which is far more affordable pulls 15 mill from the game. 15 mill actually keeps less money in the game. More people have more opportunity to make more money. Nobody is being sunk to make that money. There is more money being floated throughout the game through sales. Better markeplace because there are more places selling. Works well for all.

voreo · July 2016

How about we just add global traders where you can search for things. (in addition to adding more)

Instead of directly buying, it tells you where the trader is found. You can place an order for double the cost to hold it but you got to pick it up at the trader rather than it mailed to you.

jedtb16_ESO · July 2016

autumnsongbird wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Mortehl wrote: »

Do you know what a license to sell hot dogs costs in Central Park in nyc? Starts at 250 -Thousand- per year. Give you one guess why...

its called competition isn't it? its how most economies work

current situation seems fine.... the richer trade guilds get the better spots. the members of those guilds got rich by having good stuff to sell. the fact that there are other rich guilds close by (thinking craglorn as a for instance) keeps the price on goods competitive. seems fine to me.

what was the question?.

edit to add:

the high price on some of the sites also serves to siphon of some of the gold in game.... helping to keep a cap of the economy.

Big flaw with this is that those guilds generally stay very hard to get into. I was lucky to get into one. But what about other people. I have people in my guild who have asked about merchants and we can't invite them because they are full. So what that means is the rich that were here a while get to stay where they are and sell in good locations while newer players hope to get a spot at some point when others are cleared out. Some of the rich guilds as best as I can tell don't clear out that many. So when I get asked about invites to them, I can't help someone newer to the game out because the guild is full to 500. That's a massive problem and one more reason why you need more traders.

you just made a good argument for creating more guilds.... more competition.

ComboBreaker88 · July 2016

autumnsongbird wrote: »

Some are costing a million a week for Prime locations.

A million a week. Lmao. That's cute.

The problem with the trader system is that it encourages price gouging and allows players who have cheated and abused glitches to get money (I'm talking about the pig farm and the banker/writ glitch) to do whatever they want. Players who did thsee glitches should have had their entire inventorys wiped and anything they gave to other players/ guilds also wiped.

There also needs to be a guild rank up system that resets every few months like a season and the higher you guild ranking the higher perks you can get from that guild. One of them being a multiplier for guild trader bids. Like x4 the bid you place for max level. That would stop out all of the lare trader guilds and promote social interaction and longevity to the guilds and the game.

bedlom · July 2016

To have a guild trader is like pissing in the wind.

ArchMikem · July 2016

It's not just the seller's getting a Dwarven Rod rammed up where Magnus don't shine. Everything that's actually sought after is either not being sold, or being sold for amounts I can't dream of affording any time soon. There's no point to this economy if all it does is force you to go out and grind out the items yourself, hoping RNGesus is on your side.

SirAndy · July 2016

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

That won't help. The best locations are monopolized by the wealthiest guilds. Many control several kiosks at each location. They will just keep out-bidding everyone else on new spots on continue their monopoly. The only 'fix' for this is an auction house and that will never happen.

jedtb16_ESO · July 2016

SirAndy wrote: »

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

That won't help. The best locations are monopolized by the wealthiest guilds. Many control several kiosks at each location. They will just keep out-bidding everyone else on new spots on continue their monopoly. The only 'fix' for this is an auction house and that will never happen.

are you agreeing that there should be an auction house or that it will never happen?

Hempyre · July 2016

There needs to be less, crappy guilds bidding on traders, not more.

I'm sick of running around for an hour looking at stock just to find traders that have nothing but decon trash on them time and time again. And on top of that, when I finally find a decent vendor guild they're gone from that location in a week or two and replaced by a guild with no business bidding on anything. I dont even bother going to half the areas anymore as it's a waste of my time. This economic system is poorly implemented and a time sink.

The last thing this game needs is more traders with nothing to offer.

I hope prices go up for vendors.

Korah_Eaglecry · July 2016

Ive said it before they need to move over to a Auctioneer-Trade Guild Expo hybrid. More Trade Guilds could set up shop in one location and it would open up the opportunity for individuals to participate. It would still maintain the feel of shopping as it would be Zone Specific so if you couldnt find something in Mournhold you would still need to shop around in other areas.

BlackEar · July 2016

At least if we have to pay to win guild spots we have some sort of gold sink in the game.

The greater problem is that economy is stagnating while congregating at the wealthy guilds.

Glyntt · July 2016

Bids are not "out of control." It's supply & demand. If more folks are interested in selling via trade guilds then more demand = higher bids. We don't need more agents. Double the agents in Rawl and I'd shop there exclusively.

About the worst idea I've heard is the Auction House. Oh yes, it would make searching much simpler for Lazy Sue, but you would no longer be competing against the members of your guild or the guilds in your zone for customers. Any reputation built would be gone. You'd then be competing against every other player - all at once. There'd be no need for agents at all. Bankers could do it. And as the supply of items goes global, supply invariably increases, and value falls.

For the past 2 weeks, my trade guild lost bids. This week, we won. It happens to most guilds. Save your mats and sell them when you win. Encourage the members of your guild to shop in your own guild store when you lose. Organize raffles, contests, auctions, etc. to generate funds for a larger weekly bid. Set a quota, name dues. But most of all, sell items. If your 500 man trade guild isn't generating enough gold for its bid, it's not the result of a broken system.

SirAndy · July 2016

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

That won't help. The best locations are monopolized by the wealthiest guilds. Many control several kiosks at each location. They will just keep out-bidding everyone else on new spots on continue their monopoly. The only 'fix' for this is an auction house and that will never happen.

are you agreeing that there should be an auction house or that it will never happen?

Both ...

zyk · July 2016

I love the trader system. I like that there are exclusive locations for players to compete for. The guilds who are regularly in Rawl have to work very hard to be there -- both the leaders and members.

A prime location is not required to be profitable. There are several high traffic zones where it is possible to earn a good income.

The system does have flaws, but I do not believe the solution is to add traders.

Lieblingsjunge · July 2016

autumnsongbird wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Bids mainly sky-rocketed cus guild-leaders are whiny, QQ-y and bring everything to apersonal level "OH?!?!? YOU BID US IN RAWL'KHA? WELL. You and your members are blacklisted from our trading alliance(includes multiple guilds!)". "Oh shait mate, you overbid us. It's war!!"
^That's what's going on on PC/EU anyway. No wonders bid sky-rockets when people are fighting for the same traders. Mainly cus people, for some reason think they got 1st right on certain traders, and they just make a huge war out of it.

Guilds are making alliances - guilds are making wars. So yeah. Blame the GMs if you want to blame anyone.

Also. Bid-system is.... broken. As in, not good, but broken. You got no way of seeing what the other guild you fight against bid. THere's no auction going on. OH AND WAIT - it happens at 4.00 EU/CET in the middle of the night! GREAT.

Seriously. Blame the system, it's not few traders. Its competitive. Just the system sucks.

If anyone of you played Forsaken World - the GvG-bidding system there was amazing. And I honestly wish they would do the same for Guild Traders.

I don't know about any child like antics that might be going on, but it is simply an issue of supply and demand from my stance. Basic economics. We need MORE traders when there are multiple guilds filled with hundreds of sellers. Part of the issue is that you only get 30 slots. Part of the issue is that you only have limited number of traders in decent locations that get the foot traffic required. We need more traders. If there are so many bid wars then there are clearly prime spots that do not have enough there.

It's for the benefit of everyone to have more traders because then we have more options to buy stuff we want. I am in one guild that I think is very good. I like it a lot. They have lost bids in rawlka and then in elden root and now I don't even know where we are but it's a good guild as best as I can tell. People are leaving because they lost bids. I've sold around 10k in a week there without even really going crazy because it was my first week with them. But something is broken in the system when a good guild loses good spots but still sells quite a bit and holds raffles. More spots are needed.

No. If you give too many traders - it won't be competitive anymore. There will always be wealthier and less wealthier guilds. :> You can't demand that every guild should be equal. It's not like none of the Craglorn/PCEU trading guilds got everything for free. They're working hard for it. So they deserve it. The system is what's wrong - not the locations or anything.

Yeah, people are leaving cus they lost their trader weeks in a row. That's one of the sidesto owning a trading guild. And it'll happen. You can't expect equality for all guilds. And you can't blame people for leaving trading guilds without a trader either. Then you otta look at ways to secure a trader for the guild. Not sure which server,but main cities in Grahtwood/Greenshade(Marbruk) are pretty cheap. Evermore & ournhold too.

SirAndy · July 2016

Glyntt wrote: »

Bids are not "out of control." It's supply & demand.

It's not that simple. I'm the GM of a guild that had a trader for most weeks since PC launch.

I can tell you that the prices for a trader have risen a LOT in just the last few weeks. We're now paying 2x of what we were paying just 2 months ago, for the same trader in the same spot.
And that spot is not even in a prime area.

I'm also part of two other guilds that have long term traders and the trend there is the same.

Neither of those 3 guilds makes even remotely enough through taxes to cover the costs, they are all highly dependent on donations etc.

There is no way this is sustainable in the long term. All the traders in good locations will be bought up by a few large trading guilds and everyone else will scramble to outbid each other and bankrupt the smaller guilds in the process.

daemonios · July 2016

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Guild Traders are a means of selling wares without socializing. When text chat hits consoles then you can use it to sell things if you need to (of course PC has been able to do this already lol). As for the big trading guilds they have 100s of members and charge a fee of each member weekly. Those fees go toward paying for a Guild Trader. Some members even donate more than they need to for the cause! Do we need more Guild Traders? I say it couldn't hurt, but it does have its cons as well as its pros.

My trading guild has a trader in Belkarth, which in PC/EU is basically the top spot for traders (I don't know if Rawl'kha guilds sell more, but I rarely shop there because their prices are easily 50% higher on average). There are no mandatory fees, although you are expected to sell well. You can contribute voluntarily for additional privileges, but as I said, guild members don't have to pay fees.

daemonios · July 2016

Sporvan wrote: »

I think limited guild traders makes people go to more off-beat zones which is a good thing.

I don't agree. I believe some people might look in every single trader in the game, but most will check 3-4 locations at most, and that's if they can't find what they're looking for at reasonable prices right away. In my case, I usually check Belkarth, Rawl'kha and Wayrest (the latter simply because it's mostly smaller guilds with often good prices on crafting mats). If I'm looking for a very expensive item and I want the best possible deal without too much hassle, I might add Mournhold and Elden Root. That's it. I don't ever visit traders anywhere else. Ever.

Sporvan wrote: »

The problem doesn't lie with the guild traders, it's the search functionality that needs improvement because players are lazy to go repeat the same hunt in several locations.

Simply add a free text search on Guild Traders and it will be so much easier to hunt multiple locations.

This I can agree with. I can't imagine playing without Awesome Guild Store, but even that isn't perfect due to the game's limitations.

I honestly can't see how free text search could be a burden on the servers than what we have now, a system that makes you query the server as many times as there are pages of stuff in whatever category you're searching. For certain broad categories (e.g. "motifs" or "recipes") this can mean several dozen pages and therefore queries.

Glyntt · July 2016

SirAndy wrote: »

Neither of those 3 guilds makes even remotely enough through taxes to cover the costs, they are all highly dependent on donations etc.

Doesn't that seem like a wholly different issue? Taxes are low. It takes like 28k in sales to generate 1k in taxes. Which is what? 3.5%? So to generate a 1 million bid via taxes alone, you'd need 28 million in sales. Every week. And many bids are higher than 1 million gold.

This is why if folks want to talk about making the tax rate variable, or increasing the 30-item limit, or increasing the 500 player cap - to help generate higher bids - it would make more sense. But doubling the number of agents isn't going to accomplish much except more of the same with more agents.

To me, the key here is player fluidity. Once OT launches and level-sync is in play, more folks should be in zones currently less travelled. Hopefully when more of these under-utilized agents become "hot" commodities, the demand on the higher-traffic areas will diminish a bit.

Mortehl · July 2016

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Mortehl wrote: »

Do you know what a license to sell hot dogs costs in Central Park in nyc? Starts at 250 -Thousand- per year. Give you one guess why...

its called competition isn't it? its how most economies work

current situation seems fine.... the richer trade guilds get the better spots. the members of those guilds got rich by having good stuff to sell. the fact that there are other rich guilds close by (thinking craglorn as a for instance) keeps the price on goods competitive. seems fine to me.

what was the question?.

I'm afraid its not as simple as you make it out to be.

Paying 5K in dues, and selling 4K weekly is wasted endeavor faced by many in this game.

Since most people lack a simple mechanism called "empathy", the system works just fine (for them), screw everyone else.

Spare me the empathy nonsense. Paying 5k in dues when you only generate 4K in sales means you don't need a guild trader because you aren't farming enough resources. A fresh from the generator noob can farm 200 iron ore to sell for 7k in 45 minutes.

So you're either full of crap and aren't taking the time to generate fodder for sale, or are just looking for something to complain about.

Elsonso · July 2016

I don't think that the cost of a trader is an issue. It is somewhat self correcting in that the guild has to maintain gold income or it cannot hold the spot, and anyone trying to take it from that guild has the same problem. A guild that can generate enough gold to maintain a spot should be able to keep it.

It is definitely not a reason to add traders.

ScottK1994 · July 2016

It's pretty simple, anyone inside the Market is going to flood you with comments about how you're wrong because it's working for them just now.

It's wrong that casual players are locked out from being able to sell and sometimes even buy items

Unsent.Soul · July 2016

Hempyre wrote: »

There needs to be less, crappy guilds bidding on traders, not more.

I'm sick of running around for an hour looking at stock just to find traders that have nothing but decon trash on them time and time again. And on top of that, when I finally find a decent vendor guild they're gone from that location in a week or two and replaced by a guild with no business bidding on anything. I dont even bother going to half the areas anymore as it's a waste of my time. This economic system is poorly implemented and a time sink.

The last thing this game needs is more traders with nothing to offer.

I hope prices go up for vendors.

What you just described is what top trade guilds are doing to increase sales and revenue.

Buy out other stalls with crappy guilds with empty stalls so the 1 that is stocked, makes all the money.

That was pretty common on xbox, I assume it's on the other 2 as well.

Taleof2Cities · July 2016

autumnsongbird wrote: »

Big flaw with this is that those guilds generally stay very hard to get into. I was lucky to get into one. But what about other people. I have people in my guild who have asked about merchants and we can't invite them because they are full. So what that means is the rich that were here a while get to stay where they are and sell in good locations while newer players hope to get a spot at some point when others are cleared out. Some of the rich guilds as best as I can tell don't clear out that many. So when I get asked about invites to them, I can't help someone newer to the game out because the guild is full to 500. That's a massive problem and one more reason why you need more traders.

Just one player's perspective, of course, but I found my current trading guild through an advertisement in Craglorn zone chat.

So, I don't think large trading guilds are hard to get into.

Said trading guild does not have a "mandatory" guild fee or quota either.

In addition, the guild does have a way to let idle players go and make way for new players.

As others in the thread have mentioned, if a player is a casual seller then a casual trading guild is probably a better fit than a large trading guild.

disintegr8 · July 2016

Introducing a search function for guild stores would help even out the traders. If you know that single trader out in the middle of nowhere has the item/s you are after, you will happily make the trip. You are not likely to go out of your way to travel to a trader out on their own somewhere on the off chance that they have what you want.

A simple tool that lets you search for items and tells you which trader/s have them and where they are located would help even out the costs of the locations. It does not have to tell you how much the item is being sold for, you have to then make the effort to travel and find out. You would make the effort to go to the out of the way stalls knowing that they have what you want.

Most people will only go to where groups of traders are to search for a particular item because there is a greater chance of finding it, hence they get more visitors, more sales and cost more to own. The cheaper stalls out in the middle of nowhere only get passing trade, hence poor sales and are cheaper to bid for.

Verbalinkontinenz · July 2016

@autumnsongbird just say thank you to some terrorists.

your idea doesnt fix the problem, because its not about the amount of traders.

"OH?!?!? YOU BID US IN RAWL'KHA? WELL. You and your members are blacklisted from our trading alliance(includes multiple guilds!)". "Oh shait mate, you overbid us. It's war!!"

thats just half of the story.

there have been advertising-roundmails, threatening, hatemails and personal attacks from othere side before - and not we declared war, war has been declared to us. any gm who is clear in his brain would not let people in his guild, who send advertising mails for other guilds through others guild rosters.

ScottK1994 · July 2016

And that's why an auction house is needed. If a trade system is complicated then it won't work.
Zenimax fails at basic online game making. The world and quest is amazing but the dungeons, PvP and lack of auction house? I'm considering trying the other areas of the alliance zones and considering it a finished RPG because it lacks any end game substance.

ConeOfSilence · July 2016

Capitalism at it's finest.