This is Why Leaderboards Breed Pettiness

DenMoria · July 2016

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

I want to remind everyone that a case have always more then one sides.
I read your story. I am not saying I dont believe you but just want to say an example.

Our guild used to raid with a player who claimed he never did anything wrong, and if he was dead 5 times in a row and someone else died, it was like he forgot he died and claimed how good he was when he ressed others.
Also, communication is more importent the people think. If you get pulled from a totem, you can say where you are. Also, telling the group who you are ressing, helps alot, so others dont spend time looking around for the dead player they see in group.

When that is said, lets say your story are correct, I think if their behavior is to kick "outsiders" eventhough themselves are bad, they wont progress on anything in this game, and tbh, hardmode on vet sanctum is maybe easier then hardmode gonna be in vet AA and HelRa. You dodge world shaper, pick up some orbs, kill a mini manti and all in boss.

There might be mostly *** out there, but there is actually friendly guilds out there who are able to do such content in a grown up way and threat people with respect.

I want to add another thing why hardmode sanctum is the easiest one. There is no dps race, and you can at anytime recover. There will be alot of totems up at the end but we can handle that at some point.

AA have more axes and keep spawning attros.
Helra will keep spawning adds and gargoyles.
If half group dead and you spend minuites ressing, there will be a caos.

As a non-speaker, is it possible to follow directions and requests on a runthrough? It's not that I can't speak, it's just that, when I do, I inevitably *** people off because I am not nice and extremely acidic. I do take direction very well though.

There on your answer you already answered me.
Of all those fair points im trying to state, you are still stuck on the "Im right" part.
Not gonna continue discussing with those kind of people.

Sorry. That wasn't my intention. I realize that I am rarely right and I always try to perform to the best of my ability, but I find that, because I am not a talker, I seem to *** off some of the more random teammates. While I am happy to contribute to any party and do what is needed and listen to the other members. I'm not very competitive so I don't really get upset if I lose, or if other team members don't perform up to snuff.

I am sorry if you thought I was stuck on the "I'm right" thing, but, honestly, I didn't mean it in that way at all. I was just asking if players like me should even bother with the random groupings if we know we can contribute and possible assist our more competitive brethren or if we should just stick with our guildmates and friends and basically, not bother with the ultra-competitive dungeons at all. If we should just stay away, I can do that. I know that, many Pro players don't want to be interferred with.

s7732425ub17_ESO · July 2016

You are spreading crap on the forums that inexperienced players will see and will think is mainstream in this game.

It's not.

[PC NA] I've run Trials hundreds of times with many, many different guilds and pug groups, and this sort of toxic situation is very rare. Also, you were 2 hours in to a grueling Vet Sanctum run- people get frustrated, everyone gets sloppy, the group as a whole suffers, and people get angry. This is expected. Yea, it really sucks to be kicked and replaced, and you can blame that on a lousy raid leader. But this is not normal.

Rayya_Blackheart · July 2016

I completed vSO hard mode.... WORSHIP MEH!!!

In all seriousness, OP, sounds like you ended up with some folks who just wanted a body to carry them. Don't let it get you down or hold you back. :-) Not all of us leader board folks are like that.

Miszou · July 2016

It's far easier to kick someone that won't speak up in their own defense, than it is to kick someone who you have been bantering with on voice chat for the past 2 hours.

IMHO, it's not elitism - it's simply the fact that being "mean" to a faceless unknown entity is a lot easier on the conscience.

I'm not saying they were in any way right to do this. I'm just trying to put it in perspective.

It's not just your in-game performance, but also your personality. If you don't say anything, no-one can gauge who you are, so they don't feel bad when kicking you. That's all.

s7732425ub17_ESO · July 2016

DenMoria wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

I want to remind everyone that a case have always more then one sides.
I read your story. I am not saying I dont believe you but just want to say an example.

Our guild used to raid with a player who claimed he never did anything wrong, and if he was dead 5 times in a row and someone else died, it was like he forgot he died and claimed how good he was when he ressed others.
Also, communication is more importent the people think. If you get pulled from a totem, you can say where you are. Also, telling the group who you are ressing, helps alot, so others dont spend time looking around for the dead player they see in group.

When that is said, lets say your story are correct, I think if their behavior is to kick "outsiders" eventhough themselves are bad, they wont progress on anything in this game, and tbh, hardmode on vet sanctum is maybe easier then hardmode gonna be in vet AA and HelRa. You dodge world shaper, pick up some orbs, kill a mini manti and all in boss.

There might be mostly *** out there, but there is actually friendly guilds out there who are able to do such content in a grown up way and threat people with respect.

I want to add another thing why hardmode sanctum is the easiest one. There is no dps race, and you can at anytime recover. There will be alot of totems up at the end but we can handle that at some point.

AA have more axes and keep spawning attros.
Helra will keep spawning adds and gargoyles.
If half group dead and you spend minuites ressing, there will be a caos.

As a non-speaker, is it possible to follow directions and requests on a runthrough? It's not that I can't speak, it's just that, when I do, I inevitably *** people off because I am not nice and extremely acidic. I do take direction very well though.

Most Trial groups require Teamspeak or other voice chat so that you can hear the leader. Being able to speak is usually not required, unless you have a leadership role. As a raid leader, I have no problem taking someone into a Trial that doesn't speak, as long as they can listen to instructions and ask questions over chat when necessary.

DenMoria · July 2016

Miszou wrote: »

It's far easier to kick someone that won't speak up in their own defense, than it is to kick someone who you have been bantering with on voice chat for the past 2 hours.

IMHO, it's not elitism - it's simply the fact that being "mean" to a faceless unknown entity is a lot easier on the conscience.

I'm not saying they were in any way right to do this. I'm just trying to put it in perspective.

It's not just your in-game performance, but also your personality. If you don't say anything, no-one can gauge who you are, so they don't feel bad when kicking you. That's all.

Probably a good thing that I play nasty characters then (as opposed to nice), that way, when I do speak up, they get what they expect. Yes, I'm helpful, but I'm a real piece of work.

DenMoria · July 2016

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

I want to remind everyone that a case have always more then one sides.
I read your story. I am not saying I dont believe you but just want to say an example.

Our guild used to raid with a player who claimed he never did anything wrong, and if he was dead 5 times in a row and someone else died, it was like he forgot he died and claimed how good he was when he ressed others.
Also, communication is more importent the people think. If you get pulled from a totem, you can say where you are. Also, telling the group who you are ressing, helps alot, so others dont spend time looking around for the dead player they see in group.

When that is said, lets say your story are correct, I think if their behavior is to kick "outsiders" eventhough themselves are bad, they wont progress on anything in this game, and tbh, hardmode on vet sanctum is maybe easier then hardmode gonna be in vet AA and HelRa. You dodge world shaper, pick up some orbs, kill a mini manti and all in boss.

There might be mostly *** out there, but there is actually friendly guilds out there who are able to do such content in a grown up way and threat people with respect.

I want to add another thing why hardmode sanctum is the easiest one. There is no dps race, and you can at anytime recover. There will be alot of totems up at the end but we can handle that at some point.

AA have more axes and keep spawning attros.
Helra will keep spawning adds and gargoyles.
If half group dead and you spend minuites ressing, there will be a caos.

As a non-speaker, is it possible to follow directions and requests on a runthrough? It's not that I can't speak, it's just that, when I do, I inevitably *** people off because I am not nice and extremely acidic. I do take direction very well though.

Most Trial groups require Teamspeak or other voice chat so that you can hear the leader. Being able to speak is usually not required, unless you have a leadership role. As a raid leader, I have no problem taking someone into a Trial that doesn't speak, as long as they can listen to instructions and ask questions over chat when necessary.

Cool. Thank you.

Ch4mpTW · July 2016

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

You are spreading crap on the forums that inexperienced players will see and will think is mainstream in this game.

It's not.

[PC NA] I've run Trials hundreds of times with many, many different guilds and pug groups, and this sort of toxic situation is very rare. Also, you were 2 hours in to a grueling Vet Sanctum run- people get frustrated, everyone gets sloppy, the group as a whole suffers, and people get angry. This is expected. Yea, it really sucks to be kicked and replaced, and you can blame that on a lousy raid leader. But this is not normal.

Pardon...? Mind running that by me again??

KochDerDamonen · July 2016

DenMoria wrote: »

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

Not seeing the connection, think OP is blaming the mysterious 'competitive' force for a bad experience had with some real jokers. Suddenly at the end, recognition for achievment does these bad bad things? Honestly seems like folks with overly proud personalitys are giving you a bad impression of competitiveness, as there are the usual amount of humble people that also enjoy competing. Trust me, if these rude types didn't have a score or achievments, they would make them up themselves.

What if you're not competitive? I'm not. I could care less. I just play to have fun, not for bragging rights. I'm not 10.

If you're not competitive, then don't be? What does being 10 have to do with anything, there's no need for insults or seperating people into camps. Never did I say anything about competitiveness being a necessity.

I'm not competitive, I have completed all of the trials on normal and have been in all of them on veteran (can't recall which complete, if any). The difference is that I ran with a guild that was laidback, the quickest way to get booted from one of those hroups would be harassing someone about their performance or insisting they be kicked. If you're in a high strung guild that you don't have fun running with, leave it!

DenMoria · July 2016

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

Not seeing the connection, think OP is blaming the mysterious 'competitive' force for a bad experience had with some real jokers. Suddenly at the end, recognition for achievment does these bad bad things? Honestly seems like folks with overly proud personalitys are giving you a bad impression of competitiveness, as there are the usual amount of humble people that also enjoy competing. Trust me, if these rude types didn't have a score or achievments, they would make them up themselves.

What if you're not competitive? I'm not. I could care less. I just play to have fun, not for bragging rights. I'm not 10.

If you're not competitive, then don't be? What does being 10 have to do with anything, there's no need for insults or seperating people into camps. Never did I say anything about competitiveness being a necessity.

I'm not competitive, I have completed all of the trials on normal and have been in all of them on veteran (can't recall which complete, if any). The difference is that I ran with a guild that was laidback, the quickest way to get booted from one of those hroups would be harassing someone about their performance or insisting they be kicked. If you're in a high strung guild that you don't have fun running with, leave it!

Touche. Probably because the last time I was competitive is when I was 10. You are right that it is inappropriate to say something like that. My apologies.

Ghost-Shot · July 2016

Maybe high end raiding just isn't your thing? A lot of us actually like leader boards and I hate to break it to you but without the SO leader board in 1.6, this game would have died. The few guilds that made it through that time did so only due to leader board competition.

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2016

W0lf_z13 wrote: »

this is the main reason that i stick to pvp mainly now.... i know my damage isnt up to par with the "pros" so i dont even bother with that ... if anything i run pve stuff with friends that i play with constantly who dont care about the boards

All i ever do is pvp but i think pvp faces the same issues. Most players on the leaderboards in pvp are players who either play 24/7 or Resource Farm (I know not everyone does this but the Majority do).

I personally think Resource Farming is a huge issue in PvP at the moment. Something need's to be done to prevent it, like a flag on the inside of the Resource. This would mean you would have to tear down the Resource instead of feeding these types of players. This is'nt really an issue with small numbers but organized guilds are abusing this and racking up tons of AP. They do eventually get pushed out but i think it shouldn't even be possible to begin with.

Siegeing Resources should be a thing in pvp. They have hardly any hitpoints and can be taken down within minutes.

Ch4mpTW · July 2016

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

W0lf_z13 wrote: »

this is the main reason that i stick to pvp mainly now.... i know my damage isnt up to par with the "pros" so i dont even bother with that ... if anything i run pve stuff with friends that i play with constantly who dont care about the boards

All i ever do is pvp but i think pvp faces the same issues. Most players on the leaderboards in pvp are players who either play 24/7 or Resource Farm (I know not everyone does this but the Majority do).

I personally think Resource Farming is a huge issue in PvP at the moment. Something need's to be done to prevent it, like a flag on the inside of the Resource. This would mean you would have to tear down the Resource instead of feeding these types of players. This is'nt really an issue with small numbers but organized guilds are abusing this and racking up tons of AP. They do eventually get pushed out but i think it shouldn't even be possible to begin with.

Siegeing Resources should be a thing in pvp. They have hardly any hitpoints and can be taken down within minutes.

This is very true in PVP. And it's another reason as to why I quit taking PVP so seriously, along with other things.

xblackroxe · July 2016

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

W0lf_z13 wrote: »

this is the main reason that i stick to pvp mainly now.... i know my damage isnt up to par with the "pros" so i dont even bother with that ... if anything i run pve stuff with friends that i play with constantly who dont care about the boards

All i ever do is pvp but i think pvp faces the same issues. Most players on the leaderboards in pvp are players who either play 24/7 or Resource Farm (I know not everyone does this but the Majority do).

I personally think Resource Farming is a huge issue in PvP at the moment. Something need's to be done to prevent it, like a flag on the inside of the Resource. This would mean you would have to tear down the Resource instead of feeding these types of players. This is'nt really an issue with small numbers but organized guilds are abusing this and racking up tons of AP. They do eventually get pushed out but i think it shouldn't even be possible to begin with.

Siegeing Resources should be a thing in pvp. They have hardly any hitpoints and can be taken down within minutes.

There is an easy way to prevent this kind of farming. Dont take the flag and instead siege the tower. People dont have to get into the ressource too. Its not like its the fault of the group idiots keep running in one by one to be easy AP.

Alcast · July 2016

Bad people always gonna blame the person that nobody knows, easiest dude to get rid of even tho he was playing decent. Too many dumbnuts around that QQ although its their own fault. But as you had no "right" because you were a "guest" well RIP.

Ch4mpTW · July 2016

Alcast wrote: »

Bad people always gonna blame the person that nobody knows, easiest dude to get rid of even tho he was playing decent. Too many dumbnuts around that QQ although its their own fault. But as you had no "right" because you were a "guest" well RIP.

Very true, @Alcast... Very true...

And salute to you for having solid builds, and being kind enough to post them for others to see and use. You're the real MVP for that.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · July 2016

@Ch4mpTW : I've had similar (though not quite as bad) experiences even using the mic, so don't worry about that. (In my case, it was 'raid leader kept telling everyone to stack inside the red in Hel Ra Hard Mode and then complaining when everyone died repeatedly'. And not bothering to switch up tactics when it became clear that wasn't working.) As was previously mentioned, a decent group can manage with most of the group just listening. The best advice I can give is find a laid-back guild that only does Trials casually, because they tend to fuss less and are more likely to just give up instead of bad mouthing everyone else if it goes poorly.

magnusthorek · July 2016

This pisses me off sometimes too.

In my case because although I can read and write very well in english, my listening skills aren't so great (but it's enough for basic directions) and I don't speak at all

nordsavage · July 2016

Ha ha, he talks about pettiness but blaming other players is petty 101. "It was the tank" he says.

Waseem · July 2016

Play to finish content and enjoy it. Its how you have fun
To be number one or 500 on the leaderboards are the same. They both yeild 0 help for your own well-being

Kalante · July 2016

lol leaderboards.

Ch4mpTW · July 2016

Waseem wrote: »

Play to finish content and enjoy it. Its how you have fun
To be number one or 500 on the leaderboards are the same. They both yeild 0 help for your own well-being

You know... You may have blown my mind with that one. That's deep... And I mean real deep. Makes a ton of sense too, if you think on it.

Shadesofkin · July 2016

Wollust wrote: »

I like leaderboards and titles

Yep.

I was in a group and we all ended up with the yips. I mean seasoned players who were wiping like mad on the Serpent, it was rough. A run that usually takes an hour took us two and a half before I realized it was late and I had to leave.

Even with that, I still prefer to run with my leaderboard team and get those titles and skins.

Mark my words I will be on that list of VMaw peeps. It'll happen..

ScooberSteve · July 2016

Whats "hard mode"?

L2Pissue · July 2016

ScooberSteve wrote: »

Whats "hard mode"?

veteran trials, as veteran dungeons have a "hard mode" , as in veteran dungeon you have to read/burn something, so in veteran trials u have to read/burn/eat/destroy w.e something to make the last boss a hard mode boss..

STEVIL · July 2016

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

And that is exactly why I tend to solo, and only will do things with groups of people I know who don't believe they are above everyone else. I get asked all the time to join raid guilds and "pro guilds", and always decline. Because pettiness like this happens far too much, and I don't have the patience to tolerate it. And it's also why I hate the fact leaderboards exist and titles exist. Because it always breeds toxic behavior in people, and makes them feel superior to everyone.

if people stuck with the bolded behavior, the problem wouldn't exist... or be in sufficient numbers to matter.

but being occasionally unwise helps remind us why its wise in the first place.

Ch4mpTW · July 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

And that is exactly why I tend to solo, and only will do things with groups of people I know who don't believe they are above everyone else. I get asked all the time to join raid guilds and "pro guilds", and always decline. Because pettiness like this happens far too much, and I don't have the patience to tolerate it. And it's also why I hate the fact leaderboards exist and titles exist. Because it always breeds toxic behavior in people, and makes them feel superior to everyone.

if people stuck with the bolded behavior, the problem wouldn't exist... or be in sufficient numbers to matter.

but being occasionally unwise helps remind us why its wise in the first place.

Very true. Lol.

GaldorP · July 2016

Unfortunately, there's always people in online games who treat everyone who's not in their guild (or an allied guild) like ***. I never understood that concept. It's not that hard to show some decency and treat other players (even if they aren't in the same guild as you) like you would like to be treated - you know, like a human being. If you having no mic was a problem, why wasn't it for the first three bosses? The no mic thing sounds like it was just an excuse and they may have had someone in their guild who wanted/"needed" your spot so they kicked you (rather than one of their guild members who did worse at the first three bosses). But I wasn't there so this is just a guess of what may have happened, based on your story.

Ep1kMalware · July 2016

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

So last night/this morning, I get invited by someone to tag along in a Veteran CP160 run of Sanctum Ophidia. Being as I love the trial, I agree to tag along as a damage dealer. Keep in mind I barely know 3 of the people in the group of 12, but still. It's not an issue. And I'm welcomed.

On the first boss, we wipe once and people quickly get their act together and straighten up. Okay cool. We get it done. Second boss comes along? We get it done, and on the first try. Third boss comes along, and we wipe constantly due to tank shoddy positioning and the raid leader acting erratic. But! We eventually somehow cheese it, and complete it after 5-7 wipes.

Now I want you to keep in mind, my headset isn't at home with me. And I haven't said a single word this whole time to anyone. And this is fine up until the last boss. Same with another person, and 1 of the people I slightly know. M'kay? So all the while in the group of 12, 2 people haven't spoken at all. And 1 person is barely speaking due to them dealing with health issues. Actually, the other person who hasn't spoken at all alongside me had a throat medical issue. Which is why they hadn't talked at all either. But anyway, it's all cool until this point.

So we get to the Serpent, and everyone is cocky and says to do it on "hard mode". People are cocky. And the raid leader agrees. Then the steady wipes start occurring right and left. Back after back. People getting sloppy, and people not following mechanics. After a while, people start saying they're going to bed and leaving. This is because it was really late in the morning, and I suppose people had to go. But then, "it" happened.

I notice those of us who barely talked slowly getting removed out of nowhere, and being told how they supposedly had to go to bed. I then get a message from the person who invited me that the raid group wants me to leave, because I haven't been using my mic. Even though I've been carrying my own weight, and the slack of a few people. I have died less than the supposed "pros" and leaderboard "masters", but that is irrelevant. A huge deal is made that I am quiet. Then as more members from a guild of "leaderboard pros and masters" start taking the spots of those who left, my silence is made an even bigger deal of. And this group wants me gone badly, according to the person who invited me. Me not talking is a huge issue.

After a while, the person who invited me claimed he got people to lay off my case but no. I didn't stay, and choose to leave. It was petty how they behaved, and I honestly felt used and miserable. I say there and used my pots, carried the slack of others, and went above and beyond what was asked of me. But because I didn't talk, and some "leaderboard pros" show up suddenly I have to go on the final boss? Really? I do all that hard work and repair kits and lots used mean nothing? Soul gems I used to resurrect some of these "pros", who didn't even come prepared with soul gems. And now they dare open their mouths and try and chump me like that? When we are on the last boss, and after I've done so much? My work means nothing, and was just a build-up to show-off to the so-called "pros" who are gonna take my spot? Even though most of them didn't: Come prepared, follow mechanics, and died tons of times more than I did? It felt horrible, and still does waking up this morning.

And that is exactly why I tend to solo, and only will do things with groups of people I know who don't believe they are above everyone else. I get asked all the time to join raid guilds and "pro guilds", and always decline. Because pettiness like this happens far too much, and I don't have the patience to tolerate it. And it's also why I hate the fact leaderboards exist and titles exist. Because it always breeds toxic behavior in people, and makes them feel superior to everyone.

I do not agree with the way ZOS designed this system. Its worse in trials the whole thing is tied to how fast you run through the Trial. it has nothing to do with how clean the run went. This whole game is designed around DPS it was a poor choice . in all honesty the game design is worse then games that were released 10 to 15 years ago in this respect. You nailed the core problem the game does not require you build friendships and develop team work to accomplish a common interest goal. all 12 players try to get the highest DPS, and post how much better they are then the other. No on has to play a class , just DPS the highest and run to the next boss.

clearly you learned nothing about mechanics. group positioning is more important in these fights than dps.

Ep1kMalware · July 2016

Pomaikai wrote: »

Because people think that this !______________! is 8 inches.

it is on a big enougj screen.