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The Magicka / Stamina Divide
Ishammael
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I am writing this thread because Sypher recently launched a thread about damage in PvP, which I really appreciated. His analysis and suggestions are spot-on, and something I have been thinking about since 1.6.
When the game was released, all classes were designed with 3 skill lines of 6 skills each. Every class skill line utilized Magicka as its resource. However, some skills scaled off of weapon damage and some scaled off of spell damage. Adding to further confusion for inexperience players (me included), those same skills may have used spell crit or weapon crit (but not consistently). Only trial and error enabled players to figure this out. Damage equations were obfuscated intentionally - a source of much player/tester frustration during Beta.
In conjunction with class skill, the weapon skill lines were available to all classes. All weapon skills scaled with WEAPON damage (indeed, pre-1.6 the Ravager set weapon damage bonus increased the damage of Impulse). Some weapon skill lines utilized Stamina (2H, DW, etc.) as a resource pool, others utilized Magicka (Destro / Resto).
All defensive mechanics in the game were designed to utilize Stamina -- blocking, dodging, break free. From the point of view that all class skills used Magicka, this made internal game sense. The weapon skill lines were intended to complement the class skills. Soft caps on all stats made this viable. Indeed, by patch 1.5 players had figured out and were playing a huge range of "hybrid" builds. Good examples include:
1. The 2H/Restro Sorc (e.g. King Richard or Skaffa) or the Sw/Sh + Resto Sorc (e.g. Ezareth)
2. The DW/Resto NB (the first true "burst" spec, devised by Araxleon) or the Sw/Sh NB (Ninja-San)
3. The 2H/resto DK
4. The absolutely amazing Blinding Flashes / Blazing Shield templar, the hardest counter to mDK (RIP) ever
Bottom line -- there was no Magicka / Stamina divide. Smart players utilized both efficiently.
There were some inequities / disadvantages:
1. You could Hard-cap Armor wearing Light and apply one Armor (Voltaile, etc) buff.
2. True "one-shot" builds existed by stacking +% dmg buffs (Recall "the Yogurt Slinger")
3. All damage calculation were extremely inconsistent and obfuscated (e.g. destro scaling with weapon damage).
4. Defensive mechanics all utilized Stamina, not Magicka. Therefore it made more sense to defend using your stam pool and attack using magicka -- blocking was thus favored, except in the case of Sorcs which had a shield.
5. The distinction between good and bad players was much more obvious because so many calculations and mechanics were not explained or made obvious.
Advantages during this patch:
1. WAY more viable sets.
2. Hybrid specs were viable.
3. The difference between max damage and min damage was much smaller (soft caps). A max damage spec truly sacrificed EVERYTHING.
4. Each class had a more distinct "personality", the homogenization of "stamina" builds had not happened yet.
5. The distinction between good and bad players was much more obvious because so many calculations and mechanics were not explained or made obvious.
Note that (5) and (5) are the same in advantages and disadvantages.
However, there was a vocal set of players that wanted to play a "Stamina" spec, i.e. to make their character built entirely focused on weapon skills. They cited a huge range of reasons, including Lore, balance, imbalance, fun, etc. At the same time, players made many suggestions on how to balance -- in the current game environment -- stam skills. Suggestions included making weapon attacks scale with max stam or weapon damage, removing casting while blocking, etc.
ZOS made a fateful decision during the 1.6 patch to do the following: all skills will scale according to the following equation COEF * (MAX_STAT + 10.46*DMG). The max stat would either be Stam or Magicka and DMG would either be weapon or spell damage, depending on whether the skill used Stamina or Magicka to cast. At the same time, they removed soft caps. During PTS, Savvy players immediately recognized that this "balance" choice polarized the game into "stam builds" and "magicka builds." If you didn't stack into weapon damage + stam or spell damage + magicka you would never be viable. This has held true to today. In my opinion, It was also the biggest balance mistake made ever made by ZOS.
Here is why:
1. Stam builds were immediately homogenized. There simply weren't enough class skills to provide a distinct identity. Stam is defined by Vigor / Shuffle / Roll Dodge. They all use the EXACT SAME weapon skills and the EXACT SAME item sets, plus/minus a couple.
2. Mobility and burst became king overnight -- because now both my offense AND my defense scaled when I stacked dmg and resource. All other RPG games ever made have balance characters according to a choice of offense or defense, i.e. you don't get both at the same time.
3. 90% of armor sets were obsolete overnight.
Anyway, here is what I am suggesting:
1. Entirely rethink the equation COEF * (MAX_STAT + 10.46*DMG). Make trading offense with defense be a part of character building. I think if this equation is rebuilt, soft caps and Battle Spirit become non-issues.
2. Carefully consider "stamina" builds and their lack of unique identity. This is a huge can of worms and I am open to discussion.
3. Add more class skill lines!
Please provide thoughts and discussion. Of course I am leaving out huge parts of this balance progress, but I don't have all day to type. Please fill in the blanks.
Edited by Ishammael on July 14, 2016 2:00PM When the game was released, all classes were designed with 3 skill lines of 6 skills each. Every class skill line utilized Magicka as its resource. However, some skills scaled off of weapon damage and some scaled off of spell damage. Adding to further confusion for inexperience players (me included), those same skills may have used spell crit or weapon crit (but not consistently). Only trial and error enabled players to figure this out. Damage equations were obfuscated intentionally - a source of much player/tester frustration during Beta.
In conjunction with class skill, the weapon skill lines were available to all classes. All weapon skills scaled with WEAPON damage (indeed, pre-1.6 the Ravager set weapon damage bonus increased the damage of Impulse). Some weapon skill lines utilized Stamina (2H, DW, etc.) as a resource pool, others utilized Magicka (Destro / Resto).
All defensive mechanics in the game were designed to utilize Stamina -- blocking, dodging, break free. From the point of view that all class skills used Magicka, this made internal game sense. The weapon skill lines were intended to complement the class skills. Soft caps on all stats made this viable. Indeed, by patch 1.5 players had figured out and were playing a huge range of "hybrid" builds. Good examples include:
1. The 2H/Restro Sorc (e.g. King Richard or Skaffa) or the Sw/Sh + Resto Sorc (e.g. Ezareth)
2. The DW/Resto NB (the first true "burst" spec, devised by Araxleon) or the Sw/Sh NB (Ninja-San)
3. The 2H/resto DK
4. The absolutely amazing Blinding Flashes / Blazing Shield templar, the hardest counter to mDK (RIP) ever
Bottom line -- there was no Magicka / Stamina divide. Smart players utilized both efficiently.
There were some inequities / disadvantages:
1. You could Hard-cap Armor wearing Light and apply one Armor (Voltaile, etc) buff.
2. True "one-shot" builds existed by stacking +% dmg buffs (Recall "the Yogurt Slinger")
3. All damage calculation were extremely inconsistent and obfuscated (e.g. destro scaling with weapon damage).
4. Defensive mechanics all utilized Stamina, not Magicka. Therefore it made more sense to defend using your stam pool and attack using magicka -- blocking was thus favored, except in the case of Sorcs which had a shield.
5. The distinction between good and bad players was much more obvious because so many calculations and mechanics were not explained or made obvious.
Advantages during this patch:
1. WAY more viable sets.
2. Hybrid specs were viable.
3. The difference between max damage and min damage was much smaller (soft caps). A max damage spec truly sacrificed EVERYTHING.
4. Each class had a more distinct "personality", the homogenization of "stamina" builds had not happened yet.
5. The distinction between good and bad players was much more obvious because so many calculations and mechanics were not explained or made obvious.
Note that (5) and (5) are the same in advantages and disadvantages.
However, there was a vocal set of players that wanted to play a "Stamina" spec, i.e. to make their character built entirely focused on weapon skills. They cited a huge range of reasons, including Lore, balance, imbalance, fun, etc. At the same time, players made many suggestions on how to balance -- in the current game environment -- stam skills. Suggestions included making weapon attacks scale with max stam or weapon damage, removing casting while blocking, etc.
ZOS made a fateful decision during the 1.6 patch to do the following: all skills will scale according to the following equation COEF * (MAX_STAT + 10.46*DMG). The max stat would either be Stam or Magicka and DMG would either be weapon or spell damage, depending on whether the skill used Stamina or Magicka to cast. At the same time, they removed soft caps. During PTS, Savvy players immediately recognized that this "balance" choice polarized the game into "stam builds" and "magicka builds." If you didn't stack into weapon damage + stam or spell damage + magicka you would never be viable. This has held true to today. In my opinion, It was also the biggest balance mistake made ever made by ZOS.
Here is why:
1. Stam builds were immediately homogenized. There simply weren't enough class skills to provide a distinct identity. Stam is defined by Vigor / Shuffle / Roll Dodge. They all use the EXACT SAME weapon skills and the EXACT SAME item sets, plus/minus a couple.
2. Mobility and burst became king overnight -- because now both my offense AND my defense scaled when I stacked dmg and resource. All other RPG games ever made have balance characters according to a choice of offense or defense, i.e. you don't get both at the same time.
3. 90% of armor sets were obsolete overnight.
Anyway, here is what I am suggesting:
1. Entirely rethink the equation COEF * (MAX_STAT + 10.46*DMG). Make trading offense with defense be a part of character building. I think if this equation is rebuilt, soft caps and Battle Spirit become non-issues.
2. Carefully consider "stamina" builds and their lack of unique identity. This is a huge can of worms and I am open to discussion.
3. Add more class skill lines!
Please provide thoughts and discussion. Of course I am leaving out huge parts of this balance progress, but I don't have all day to type. Please fill in the blanks.
32
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Samuel_Bantien✭✭✭Agree completely, except you forgot to mention was that playing stamina build "is" viable in update 1.5. Stamina builds were lacking some things such as a heal (2H was bad and momentum only worked with your 2h bar which made it unviable. Therefore they added Vigor to compliment Stamina builds. Another thing they were lacking was because of the low Soft/Hard Cap of Weapon Damage (which would've been fixed if 2H Momentum increased damage of your other weapon bar. 1 Shot-Willy stam builds still existed back then with 5 Hawk Eye and 5 Morag Tong with a Vet DSA bow + Camo Hunter.
The 1.6 PTS-1.7 Live was still all about sustain-Magicka Reduction Jewelry was still a viable choice. You had some players such as Ezkill and Pixystiks that would stack max damage, and majority players stacking magicka regen (Ezareth).
The biggest problem now is that the Champion Point system made damage easier to stack (25% more Physical/Magic+Elemental/ Critical Strike Damage) on top of that we are now (1.6 and beyond) able to critically strike players out of stealth. The meta changed from Sustain to Burst (or glass cannon sustain) within 1 update because we are now able burst players down to 0 within seconds. If we reverted Impen and Battle Spirit back to the state of 1.5 people would now have to choose between Full Damage (which would mean they are full glass) or they can choose to balance stats now (points into health to counter full damage builds!).
Now on a whim, Stamina Builds clearly did not generate as much Ultimate as Magicka builds but did a dooky ton more single target damage, this brought several checks and balances. Magicka builds had to rely on Ultimates for kills whereas Stamina only had to rely on their Weapon Skills therefore Dynamic Ultimate Generation should be implemented back in. Another food for thought would be to consider what new and improved skills we have such as; Radiant Destruction, Grim Focus, Vigor, and Proximity Detonation along with new armor sets and the Champion System.
Tl;dr
Read my post :^)
Bring back Dynamic Ult Gen
Make Impen work like update 1.5
Consider checks and balances with new skills and passives over the year.Zaxon
PC NA
Ebonheart:
Magicka Dragonknight: Suedoú
Magicka Nightblade: Suedou
Magicka Sorcerer: Suedoe1 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IMO the Health attribute needs to have utility. There needs to be a reason beyond a slightly longer red bar to invest in health. Whether it's additional mitigation, dodge chance, shorter DoT duration or reduced DoT damage, CC break cost/duration, even reduced siege damage taken(and possibly increased siege damage done) .
Magicka and Stamina builds shouldn't have their defense tied to the same pool they use for offense. Pure builds would be purely offensive and as such prone to be easily burned down by balanced builds who've invested in both offense (mag or stam) and defense (health). Damage builds would have to invest in health for these mitigations and overall damage would come down. Tanks would invest heavily in health for mitigation and as such they would be dealing much lower damage.
Mitigating skills, shields, cleanse, shuffle should scale with health, not magicka or stamina. In this way, players will have to balance damage and mitigation by balancing attribute investments, armor choices in a way that gives them enough of both rather than piling everything into one resource and remaining effective.5 -
Ffastyl✭✭✭✭✭The issue with scaling mitigation of any kind with Health is it becomes easily achievable to be "unkillable." Having abilities scale with Health is a suggestion from long ago that would make the same balance - defensive skills are either static (Major Ward/Resolve) or scale with Health (Sun Shield)."A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."
PC NA
Daggerfall Covenant
Ffastyl - Level 50 Templar
Arturus Amitis - Level 50 Nightblade
Sulac the Wanderer - Level 50 Dragonknight
Arcturus Leland - Level 50 Sorcerer
Azrog rus-Oliphet - Level 50 Templar
Tienc - Level 50 Warden
Aldmeri Dominion
Ashen Willow Knight - Level 50 Templar
Champion Rank 938
Check out:
Old vs New Intro Cinematics
"My strength is that I have no weaknesses. My weakness is that I have no strengths."
Member since May 4th, 2014.0 -
Dreyloch✭✭✭✭✭There's some good ideas here. Hopefully I'm adding one or 2 as well. Sandman mentioned using health as a more viable or useful resource. Here's my 2 cents on that. If ZoS reduced the health we get per level, while leaving the current damage meta in place, we'd HAVE to shift points into health to survive. This in turn works into Sypher's idea about taking max damage builds down a notch or two. The flip side is... this will increase TTK as all damage will be slightly reduced in order to keep a maintainable health pool. This will also cause more lag as less players are dying in a timely manner in large scale conflicts.
One solution I can see is adding a 4th resource. Something that only works when your in Cyro. Something that can not be adjusted with stam, magicka, weapon or spell damage/crit. Call it fortitude, call it w/e the heck ya want. We can then adjust all the pools in a way that forces us to make a choice of more stam/magicka pools and needing to add into health.
Another viable solution is making PvP only gear. 5th trait armor sets that only effect PvP like vicious death. Sets that can still be used in PvE if you like, but the 5th trait is useless there, and are purchased with AP only.My last suggestion (which I've been saying since launch) is to make all skills work differently in PvP vs. PvE. Be it less damage, less healing w/e. Go thru each skill, and reduce or enhance it accordingly. The blanket battle spirit reduction thing is just plain lazy development. A band aid that needs to be ripped away from PvP.Edited by Dreyloch on July 14, 2016 6:02PM"The fear of Death, is often worse than death itself"0 -
KenaPKK✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yeeeeeessssss I need to learn a chronological and comprehensive history of these changes. You saw mah plea.
gold star thread.
Does this mean you're reaching limits of your frustration and losing interest in the game?
I hope not. 0 -
Ffastyl✭✭✭✭✭Does this mean you're reaching limits of your frustration and losing interest in the game? I hope not.
I did 4 months back. Took 2 months to play Dark Souls 3 and came back refreshed for the casual scene. The competitive scene still grates me as a human being.There's some good ideas here. Hopefully I'm adding one or 2 as well. Sandman mentioned using health as a more viable or useful resource. Here's my 2 cents on that. If ZoS reduced the health we get per level, while leaving the current damage meta in place, we'd HAVE to shift points into health to survive. This in turn works into Sypher's idea about taking max damage builds down a notch or two. The flip side is... this will increase TTK as all damage will be slightly reduced in order to keep a maintainable health pool. This will also cause more lag as less players are dying in a timely manner in large scale conflicts.
The original TTK for ESO was long. With the aid of Forward Camps, one battle lasted for 9 hours. But in a more general setting, each fight was 10 or 15 minutes. TTK going up or down is subjective and ultimately decided by the developer. There is a sweetspot for every game and imo ESO had it in 1.5.
Ish's 5th point is what really made ESO's PvP shine the brightest: in every game, numbers trump all, but in ESO skill trumps all. The Magicka Vampire Dragonknights that could hold a gate against 2 raids single-handedly? Can be fell in single combat. 1v4 was never hopeless to a competent player. But this dynamic is attributed to more than soft caps.Edited by Ffastyl on July 14, 2016 6:19PM"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."
PC NA
Daggerfall Covenant
Ffastyl - Level 50 Templar
Arturus Amitis - Level 50 Nightblade
Sulac the Wanderer - Level 50 Dragonknight
Arcturus Leland - Level 50 Sorcerer
Azrog rus-Oliphet - Level 50 Templar
Tienc - Level 50 Warden
Aldmeri Dominion
Ashen Willow Knight - Level 50 Templar
Champion Rank 938
Check out:
Old vs New Intro Cinematics
"My strength is that I have no weaknesses. My weakness is that I have no strengths."
Member since May 4th, 2014.3 -
Poxheart✭✭✭✭✭Agree with the OP. One of the main reasons why I've stopped playing this game.Unsubbed and no longer playing, but still checking the Alliance War forum for the lulz.
Pox Dragon Knight
Poxheart Nightblade
The Murder Hobo Dragon Knight - Blackwater Blade
Knights of the WhiteWolf0 -
Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭10/10, would +agree againAgree with the OP. One of the main reasons why I've stopped playing this game.
Thanks!
@Draxys You played a lot more than me during 1.3-1.4. Any comments on balance from then applied to now?Does this mean you're reaching limits of your frustration and losing interest in the game? I hope not.
I think I have played 2 hrs in the last week. Interest is waning fast. We'll see what happens in the new patch.
Edited by Ishammael on July 15, 2016 12:42PM0 -
Lord_Eomer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I like the idea of stamina only for block, dodge roll, cc break, sprint and sneak.
But devlopers went to far and created stamina based damage which fully distinguished with magicka, this has fuled a competition b/w magicka builds and stamina.
Now everything seems either for stamina or magicka.
There is no way to rollback except create balance and maintain it.1 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think we need more stats, one for offence, one for defence and one for healing, But this is not lore friendly and ppl will hate it.Because I can!0 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
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This wont be enough. Ppl then will stack weapon or spell damage and regen. If they have descent pool of 20k plus super high regen and high damage we will have the same problem.Because I can!0 -
OdinForge✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Throughout this games history, the poor design that led to magicka dominance is evident, both pre stam and post stam emergence. Magicka builds were soloing tough (at the time) Craglorn world bosses, magicka builds were soloing parts of / group speed running VDSA and vet dungeons. Magicka builds were soloing district or sweeper bosses, soloing Molag Bal.
At this point they'd have to completely redesign the game, but that isn't going to happen and we all know it. I'm spoiled by Overwatch at the moment, devs are currently playing the game with streamers and communicating with their user-base. I don't even hate this patch, I just can't stand the bugs and IC is pretty empty again. Just zerg groups camping district flags in stealth waiting for singles to come around.The Age of Wrobel.2 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The issue with scaling mitigation of any kind with Health is it becomes easily achievable to be "unkillable." Having abilities scale with Health is a suggestion from long ago that would make the same balance - defensive skills are either static (Major Ward/Resolve) or scale with Health (Sun Shield).
There are damned near unkillable builds running around right now. They can't do anything but not die, but they're out there. No damage ability should scale with max health, and as you said the static defenses that don't depend on any resource currently should remain that way, but I think bringing some utility to the Health attribute and making it not only attractive but necessary for survivability in PvP is part of the solution to bring diversity back to builds, reduce out of control damage and out of control healing.0 -
KenaPKK✭✭✭✭✭
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I partially blame myself for this since I've been offline with my comp troubles...0 -
Verdwhisper✭✭✭I really want to keep this thread constructive, but I kinda feel that this game is on the wrong path for serious gamers. I dropped the game at 1.6, the stamina builds needed some love, but the skill overhaul was not needed. Plus, the cp system totally ruined it for me, I have better things to do than grinding cp.0
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themdogesbite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just add a 1.5 campaign already with softcaps, dynamic ultimate and old values and no cp. I bet the other campaigns would be a wasteland.:]3 -
Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭themdogesbite wrote: »Just add a 1.5 campaign already with softcaps, dynamic ultimate and old values and no cp. I bet the other campaigns would be a wasteland.
I would not take that bet.
Old players would return in droves, too.0 -
Xeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you compare the top stam sets to the top magicka sets, stam wins. If you compare the cost of stam abilities to the cost of magicka abilities, stam wins. If you compare the damage of stam abilities to the damage of magicka abilities, stam wins. If you compare the mobility of stam builds to the mobility of magicka builds, stam wins yet again.
The idea that magic has range so melee needs to be stronger is a fallacy, in this game at least. Most magicka builds are melee ranged anyway (magiblades/magiplars/magidks), and with the extremely powerful and wide variety of gap closers, all stam builds have no problems whatsoever remaining permanently glued to your face. The traditional advantages that ranged abilities have given in other games are greatly diminished under the combat mechanics of ESO.
That said I think stamina is generally in a good place, and magicka could use a slight buff across the board. I think Sypher said it best in his recent video. The gap between top end PvP damage and low end PvP damage is quite large. I think bringing the lower end of the damage spectrum up without nerfing the high end would go a long way towards balancing magicka vs stamina.
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Mako1132✭✭✭✭✭10/10, would +agree againAgree with the OP. One of the main reasons why I've stopped playing this game.
Thanks!
@Draxys You played a lot more than me during 1.3-1.4. Any comments on balance from then applied to now?Does this mean you're reaching limits of your frustration and losing interest in the game? I hope not.
I think I have played 2 hrs in the last week. Interest is waning fast. We'll see what happens in the new patch.
As far as balance between magicka/stam you pretty much nailed most of it. The main issue with stam was that it was impractical in group pvp. You would die if you didn't block, and as stam if you blocked you would be out of resources unable to do damage, break free, or heal. Magicka sets were also better than stam sets. Lack of strong AOE in weapon trees. ST and bombard did not hit hard, but being fair neither did Impulse. The difference was Elemental Ring and the bonus chance to proc status effects (burning) through destro staff. Just with one Elemental Ring you had the chance to get 3 ult gen procs from each target you hit. One from the base hit, one from the dot, one if you procced burning status. Since back then even efficient purge had a steep cost due to soft caps so DoTs were very effective.
Overall it just did not synergize well with how combat worked back then.
Edit: Medium Armor passives were also garbage back then.Edited by Mako1132 on July 15, 2016 6:39PM1 -
Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭10/10, would +agree againAgree with the OP. One of the main reasons why I've stopped playing this game.
Thanks!
@Draxys You played a lot more than me during 1.3-1.4. Any comments on balance from then applied to now?Does this mean you're reaching limits of your frustration and losing interest in the game? I hope not.
I think I have played 2 hrs in the last week. Interest is waning fast. We'll see what happens in the new patch.
As far as balance between magicka/stam you pretty much nailed most of it. The main issue with stam was that it was impractical in group pvp. You would die if you didn't block, and as stam if you blocked you would be out of resources unable to do damage, break free, or heal. Magicka sets were also better than stam sets. Lack of strong AOE in weapon trees. ST and bombard did not hit hard, but being fair neither did Impulse. The difference was Elemental Ring and the bonus chance to proc status effects (burning) through destro staff. Just with one Elemental Ring you had the chance to get 3 ult gen procs from each target you hit. One from the base hit, one from the dot, one if you procced burning status. Since back then even efficient purge had a steep cost due to soft caps so DoTs were very effective.
Overall it just did not synergize well with how combat worked back then.
Edit: Medium Armor passives were also garbage back then.
Yeah I forgot to include the intricacies of elemental ring and other skills. Steel tornado was always good though. Just hard to run for the reasons you articulate.
Anyway, I am pretty sure the original design of the game never even considered "Stamina" builds. That is, Stamina and weapon skills were purely meant to be supplements to the class -- never the main course. The entire idea of "Stamina" builds was player driven.1 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭10/10, would +agree againAgree with the OP. One of the main reasons why I've stopped playing this game.
Thanks!
@Draxys You played a lot more than me during 1.3-1.4. Any comments on balance from then applied to now?Does this mean you're reaching limits of your frustration and losing interest in the game? I hope not.
I think I have played 2 hrs in the last week. Interest is waning fast. We'll see what happens in the new patch.
As far as balance between magicka/stam you pretty much nailed most of it. The main issue with stam was that it was impractical in group pvp. You would die if you didn't block, and as stam if you blocked you would be out of resources unable to do damage, break free, or heal. Magicka sets were also better than stam sets. Lack of strong AOE in weapon trees. ST and bombard did not hit hard, but being fair neither did Impulse. The difference was Elemental Ring and the bonus chance to proc status effects (burning) through destro staff. Just with one Elemental Ring you had the chance to get 3 ult gen procs from each target you hit. One from the base hit, one from the dot, one if you procced burning status. Since back then even efficient purge had a steep cost due to soft caps so DoTs were very effective.
Overall it just did not synergize well with how combat worked back then.
Edit: Medium Armor passives were also garbage back then.
Yeah I forgot to include the intricacies of elemental ring and other skills. Steel tornado was always good though. Just hard to run for the reasons you articulate.
Anyway, I am pretty sure the original design of the game never even considered "Stamina" builds. That is, Stamina and weapon skills were purely meant to be supplements to the class -- never the main course. The entire idea of "Stamina" builds was player driven.
Steel tornado was very bad because it was one of the few AoE skills that were blockable.
I just remember what was my first discussion that I created here in the forums. It was just the opposite, I was complaining about stamina being really underpowered --> https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/105709/zos-please-let-the-dev-team-who-designed-the-magicka-builds-now-to-design-the-stamina-builds-too/p1Because I can!1 -
Mako1132✭✭✭✭✭10/10, would +agree againAgree with the OP. One of the main reasons why I've stopped playing this game.
Thanks!
@Draxys You played a lot more than me during 1.3-1.4. Any comments on balance from then applied to now?Does this mean you're reaching limits of your frustration and losing interest in the game? I hope not.
I think I have played 2 hrs in the last week. Interest is waning fast. We'll see what happens in the new patch.
As far as balance between magicka/stam you pretty much nailed most of it. The main issue with stam was that it was impractical in group pvp. You would die if you didn't block, and as stam if you blocked you would be out of resources unable to do damage, break free, or heal. Magicka sets were also better than stam sets. Lack of strong AOE in weapon trees. ST and bombard did not hit hard, but being fair neither did Impulse. The difference was Elemental Ring and the bonus chance to proc status effects (burning) through destro staff. Just with one Elemental Ring you had the chance to get 3 ult gen procs from each target you hit. One from the base hit, one from the dot, one if you procced burning status. Since back then even efficient purge had a steep cost due to soft caps so DoTs were very effective.
Overall it just did not synergize well with how combat worked back then.
Edit: Medium Armor passives were also garbage back then.
Yeah I forgot to include the intricacies of elemental ring and other skills. Steel tornado was always good though. Just hard to run for the reasons you articulate.
Anyway, I am pretty sure the original design of the game never even considered "Stamina" builds. That is, Stamina and weapon skills were purely meant to be supplements to the class -- never the main course. The entire idea of "Stamina" builds was player driven.
Steel tornado was very bad because it was one of the few AoE skills that were blockable.
I just remember what was my first discussion that I created here in the forums. It was just the opposite, I was complaining about stamina being really underpowered --> https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/105709/zos-please-let-the-dev-team-who-designed-the-magicka-builds-now-to-design-the-stamina-builds-too/p1
This is true, and even though it's changed you can still dodge roll ST, but not magicka AOE's.10/10, would +agree againAgree with the OP. One of the main reasons why I've stopped playing this game.
Thanks!
@Draxys You played a lot more than me during 1.3-1.4. Any comments on balance from then applied to now?Does this mean you're reaching limits of your frustration and losing interest in the game? I hope not.
I think I have played 2 hrs in the last week. Interest is waning fast. We'll see what happens in the new patch.
As far as balance between magicka/stam you pretty much nailed most of it. The main issue with stam was that it was impractical in group pvp. You would die if you didn't block, and as stam if you blocked you would be out of resources unable to do damage, break free, or heal. Magicka sets were also better than stam sets. Lack of strong AOE in weapon trees. ST and bombard did not hit hard, but being fair neither did Impulse. The difference was Elemental Ring and the bonus chance to proc status effects (burning) through destro staff. Just with one Elemental Ring you had the chance to get 3 ult gen procs from each target you hit. One from the base hit, one from the dot, one if you procced burning status. Since back then even efficient purge had a steep cost due to soft caps so DoTs were very effective.
Overall it just did not synergize well with how combat worked back then.
Edit: Medium Armor passives were also garbage back then.
Yeah I forgot to include the intricacies of elemental ring and other skills. Steel tornado was always good though. Just hard to run for the reasons you articulate.
Anyway, I am pretty sure the original design of the game never even considered "Stamina" builds. That is, Stamina and weapon skills were purely meant to be supplements to the class -- never the main course. The entire idea of "Stamina" builds was player driven.
I agree. It should have stayed that way honestly looking back. ZOS took too extreme of a stance on their "play the way you want" motto. Just because your spec wasn't the most OP spec didn't mean you couldn't play it. It just meant it wasn't the best choice to be competitive. They destroyed their game trying to cater to everyone. If I made a build video of a full magicka spec trying to kill things with the dagger throw ability you all would call me ***, but probably someone at ZOS would say "well he's not able to play the way he wants to play". Now it's all just a huge mess, and the best way to go forward is to go backward though that will never happen.3 -
PainfulFAFA✭✭✭✭✭
✭Totally agree. Back in the days everything regarding damage calculations and abilities were calculated weird and certain abilties scaled off of weapon damage and vice versa.
This obfuscated and confusing time of the game actually made PvPing fun because like OP sai, only players who had tested how things were working would come up with the craziest awesome builds like the ones he mentioned. I remember Braidas sap tanking raids and totally made me make one and i tried to figure out his build on my own until i came up with my own version. Good times. I still remember playing magicka DK 1vXing using Turn Undead and Invasion lol. Nowadays that would be suicide. Class Ultimates scaled off of spell damage (if i remember correctly) and weapons skills (like impulse, healing wards) scaled off of weapon damage and those things were what made hybrid builds possible and build diversity in PvP.
Burst builds, like the ones we have today, were hard to pull off (unless you were NB) because of how class abilities and weapon abilties scaled. Nowadays stamina scales with stamina/wpn dmg and magicka with magicka/spell dmg its easier to come up with burst.
Stamina players did not have vigor, theyre only heals was rally but they could survive in other ways like a stam dk with dragonblood, speccing into roll dodge (no 33% cost BS), speccing into Evasion (shuffle+specrtes eye), etc. Nowadays theyre all the same and any seasoned player can figure out builds within one fight.
Unforunately, i dont think zos will change anything. As a buisness, they have dumbed the game down to cater to new potatoes coming in. The game was very fun but too complex, youd have to sit down for a couple hours and test things to see what skills/abilities did more damage and why. Now the game NO fun but very easy and laggy.themdogesbite wrote: »Just add a 1.5 campaign already with softcaps, dynamic ultimate and old values and no cp. I bet the other campaigns would be a wasteland.
Never going to happen Wheeler has said this before... If they need to change core things about campaigns, theyd have to do it for all campaigns.
Edited by PainfulFAFA on July 15, 2016 9:20PM1 -
Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭10/10, would +agree againAgree with the OP. One of the main reasons why I've stopped playing this game.
Thanks!
@Draxys You played a lot more than me during 1.3-1.4. Any comments on balance from then applied to now?Does this mean you're reaching limits of your frustration and losing interest in the game? I hope not.
I think I have played 2 hrs in the last week. Interest is waning fast. We'll see what happens in the new patch.
As far as balance between magicka/stam you pretty much nailed most of it. The main issue with stam was that it was impractical in group pvp. You would die if you didn't block, and as stam if you blocked you would be out of resources unable to do damage, break free, or heal. Magicka sets were also better than stam sets. Lack of strong AOE in weapon trees. ST and bombard did not hit hard, but being fair neither did Impulse. The difference was Elemental Ring and the bonus chance to proc status effects (burning) through destro staff. Just with one Elemental Ring you had the chance to get 3 ult gen procs from each target you hit. One from the base hit, one from the dot, one if you procced burning status. Since back then even efficient purge had a steep cost due to soft caps so DoTs were very effective.
Overall it just did not synergize well with how combat worked back then.
Edit: Medium Armor passives were also garbage back then.
Yeah I forgot to include the intricacies of elemental ring and other skills. Steel tornado was always good though. Just hard to run for the reasons you articulate.
Anyway, I am pretty sure the original design of the game never even considered "Stamina" builds. That is, Stamina and weapon skills were purely meant to be supplements to the class -- never the main course. The entire idea of "Stamina" builds was player driven.
Steel tornado was very bad because it was one of the few AoE skills that were blockable.
I just remember what was my first discussion that I created here in the forums. It was just the opposite, I was complaining about stamina being really underpowered --> https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/105709/zos-please-let-the-dev-team-who-designed-the-magicka-builds-now-to-design-the-stamina-builds-too/p1
This is true, and even though it's changed you can still dodge roll ST, but not magicka AOE's.10/10, would +agree againAgree with the OP. One of the main reasons why I've stopped playing this game.
Thanks!
@Draxys You played a lot more than me during 1.3-1.4. Any comments on balance from then applied to now?Does this mean you're reaching limits of your frustration and losing interest in the game? I hope not.
I think I have played 2 hrs in the last week. Interest is waning fast. We'll see what happens in the new patch.
As far as balance between magicka/stam you pretty much nailed most of it. The main issue with stam was that it was impractical in group pvp. You would die if you didn't block, and as stam if you blocked you would be out of resources unable to do damage, break free, or heal. Magicka sets were also better than stam sets. Lack of strong AOE in weapon trees. ST and bombard did not hit hard, but being fair neither did Impulse. The difference was Elemental Ring and the bonus chance to proc status effects (burning) through destro staff. Just with one Elemental Ring you had the chance to get 3 ult gen procs from each target you hit. One from the base hit, one from the dot, one if you procced burning status. Since back then even efficient purge had a steep cost due to soft caps so DoTs were very effective.
Overall it just did not synergize well with how combat worked back then.
Edit: Medium Armor passives were also garbage back then.
Yeah I forgot to include the intricacies of elemental ring and other skills. Steel tornado was always good though. Just hard to run for the reasons you articulate.
Anyway, I am pretty sure the original design of the game never even considered "Stamina" builds. That is, Stamina and weapon skills were purely meant to be supplements to the class -- never the main course. The entire idea of "Stamina" builds was player driven.
I agree. It should have stayed that way honestly looking back. ZOS took too extreme of a stance on their "play the way you want" motto. Just because your spec wasn't the most OP spec didn't mean you couldn't play it. It just meant it wasn't the best choice to be competitive. They destroyed their game trying to cater to everyone. If I made a build video of a full magicka spec trying to kill things with the dagger throw ability you all would call me ***, but probably someone at ZOS would say "well he's not able to play the way he wants to play". Now it's all just a huge mess, and the best way to go forward is to go backward though that will never happen.
It is absolutely a huge mess. Combat makes not sense and is so imbalanced it's hard to even begin. Hence my thread and Sypher's thread.
Some more food for thought: imagine if, rather than reinventing the combat system, ZoS had continually tweaked it to achieve balance within the original paradigm. Then, the time and effort saved could have been used to add content and added stuff to cyrodiil.3 -
arkansas_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭IC is pretty empty again. Just zerg groups camping district flags in stealth waiting for singles to come around.
IT'S SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BAD
I miss the days where you can run around the sewers chasing down groups coming to and from center. Good stones and good PVP. Now it's just 12+ man groups stealthed on district flags plucking off any random solo players that wander by.
ＦＯＲＵＭＰＬＡＲ
Grand Overlord 25/8/171 -
kevlarto_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree with what most of the OP has to say, I sure we had those caps back, and few other things.1 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I need to step away but I was just going to suggest one thought. They knew some class skills were desired to be more 'warrior' oriented. They really should have created hybrid skills that required from both resources, and had elements draw from each. The game wasn't perfect back then, and there's been elements of each patch that I liked and disliked. One thing I currently dislike is the way health has become more or less a dump stat, except for a rare few niche tank builds. From a logical standpoint I did think it made sense that destruction skills should scale off of magic, but I always liked that weapon/spell were important for all builds. I've more thoughts on the matter but I need to head out. I definitely think what you have to say is insightful @Ishammael and worth saying. I don't think they'll go back to the way things were, but recognizing the general balance of the game as it was originally designed might help in resolving balance problems based on the game's new framework.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>0 -
Samuel_Bantien wrote: »Agree completely, except you forgot to mention was that playing stamina build "is" viable in update 1.5. Stamina builds were lacking some things such as a heal (2H was bad and momentum only worked with your 2h bar which made it unviable. Therefore they added Vigor to compliment Stamina builds. Another thing they were lacking was because of the low Soft/Hard Cap of Weapon Damage (which would've been fixed if 2H Momentum increased damage of your other weapon bar. 1 Shot-Willy stam builds still existed back then with 5 Hawk Eye and 5 Morag Tong with a Vet DSA bow + Camo Hunter.
The 1.6 PTS-1.7 Live was still all about sustain-Magicka Reduction Jewelry was still a viable choice. You had some players such as Ezkill and Pixystiks that would stack max damage, and majority players stacking magicka regen (Ezareth).
The biggest problem now is that the Champion Point system made damage easier to stack (25% more Physical/Magic+Elemental/ Critical Strike Damage) on top of that we are now (1.6 and beyond) able to critically strike players out of stealth. The meta changed from Sustain to Burst (or glass cannon sustain) within 1 update because we are now able burst players down to 0 within seconds. If we reverted Impen and Battle Spirit back to the state of 1.5 people would now have to choose between Full Damage (which would mean they are full glass) or they can choose to balance stats now (points into health to counter full damage builds!).
Now on a whim, Stamina Builds clearly did not generate as much Ultimate as Magicka builds but did a dooky ton more single target damage, this brought several checks and balances. Magicka builds had to rely on Ultimates for kills whereas Stamina only had to rely on their Weapon Skills therefore Dynamic Ultimate Generation should be implemented back in. Another food for thought would be to consider what new and improved skills we have such as; Radiant Destruction, Grim Focus, Vigor, and Proximity Detonation along with new armor sets and the Champion System.
Tl;dr
Read my post :^)
Bring back Dynamic Ult Gen
Make Impen work like update 1.5
Consider checks and balances with new skills and passives over the year.
THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ImrIzpOA9Q