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Racial passives update- argonians
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Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oblivion is really great when it comes to shaping races to your liking - they had their characteristics, but you could influence it pretty well with a custom class instead one of the presets.0 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭arkansas_ESO wrote: »Lord_Dexter wrote: »Why do not we have classification or style under each crace and passives are relevant to style I.e.
A. Argonian Healer
B. Argonian Shadowacale
ZOS would be better off entirely uncoupling racial passives from races, and instead making racial passives "identities" and making choosing a race purely aesthetic. This way, you could be an Argonian with khajiit or bosmer racial passives, and play an assassin-focused Argonian without penalty.
Would've been the best option imo.
Or leave "flavour" passives as is and allow players to choose max stats, regens and such.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »ShadowStarKing wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »I'm disappointed tbh.
This change was only made to cater to people who dont understand how those +exp passives work, and it would be much more lore-friendly to add more "shadowscale" flavour to the race.
What do we know about argonians? They can survive in Black March which is not exactly a friendly environment. They're known for their guerilla warfare. If you look at their passives in previous games, they had nightblade-ish set of bonuses.
And yes, they had +to intelligence and some magic schools, but it was never comparable to insane 150% magicka boost that altmers used to have (in Morrowind).
Yeah, I was hoping for more shadow scale friendly passives, since that's how their lore plus imoI thing argonians look cooler in leather than wearing rags or plate
Yeah, they surely needed a buff.
But the thing is, this buff makes them less versatile then they are supposed to be.
I've read a lot of ingame books and dialogues, but I've never seen any mentions that argonians are superior at healing others. Though I've read that during Oblivion crisis Hist took control on all Black March's argonians and they've counter attacked dremoras so furiously that they had to close Oblivion gates. Surely they didnt heal dremoras to death or something.
Also, Black March is always described as a very unfriendly land. So it would make sense for its inhabitants to be more endurant.
In Oblivion it depended on gender - whilst males were the typical rogue/shadowscale type, their females were just average in this but had an affinity to magic - so this magical thing is not taken out of thin air - but it was just applied to females before.
In Morrowind too, female and male chars had different stats.
Yes, but "magicka" races still had stronger affinity to magic. For example, altmers in morrowind had 150% extra magicka for example. And argonian magicka bonuses werent related to healing (except +5 bonus in Skyrim), and they were mixed with sneak etc.
Yes, but when you look at the starting attributes, argonian females had 50 intelligence and 40 willpower - whilst willpower is average, 50 intelligence is exceptional and governed magicka - whereas the males had 40 intelligence and 30 willpower, what made them pretty vulnerable to magic, but they had 50 speed and 50 agility, whereas the females had just average 40 in those.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races
I played argonian females in Oblivion born under the atronach birthsign - that made for quite cool mages with a large magicka pool, which is refilled in the later game pretty much constantly by magicka-based opponents. And unlike Altmer they do not have a disadvantage when it comes to magic used on them.
Yes, but the disadvantages are meant to balance OP things, like altmer fortify magicka passive or same effect from atronach mundus.
And in addition to that passive, altmers of both genders had 50 intelligence, so I wouldnt say that magicka pool is comparable.
Altmer were basically god-like after a while, when you had chosen atronach birthsign as well - all their disadvantages can easily be removed by enchantments and if they use daggers with absorption magic, they can be really nasty in melee as well. I did not play a lot of altmers therefore - around level 25 they were so powerful that it was no fun to play anymore.Edited by Lysette on July 11, 2016 12:41AM0 -
RAGUNAnoOne✭✭✭✭✭
✭Males are assassins females are mages neither are tanks based on lore.PS4 NA
Argonian Master Race
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Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »Males are assassins females are mages neither are tanks based on lore.
yes, you can see this with the low endurance value of argonians in Oblivion - endurance governed the health points you gain when you level up - in unmodded Oblivion, if you did not care for endurance first, you were weak in the end.0 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »Shadesofkin wrote: »ShadowStarKing wrote: »So I finished watching the latest ESO live stream and it was great.
But when @Wrobel starting talking about argonians he only considered the tank and healer types of argonians.
But not all argonians are tanks and healers, I choose to play an argonian as a "shadow scale" stam NB and yet the passive are geared to be more magic based.
Even though Wrobel said he wanted passives to match the lore the argonian ones don't seems to match up as much compared to other ES games.
Argonians are gurella warfare fighters/ scouts/ and assassins(accoring to lore and past ES games) yet they have max magica passives and healing ones.
One change that I personally and maybe others would like to see is some max stamina passive maybe 3% max stam in addtion to 3% max magic could be a good start. I know its not easy to please everyone but this change could be an excellent start for the third type of argonian players out there.
Right now khajiits are the superior Rouge/stealth/assassin/thief race of the beast races in this game compared to past ES.
Opinions? Thoughts? Questions?
That's forward from Morrowind, prior to that the Arena and Daggerfall Argonians were known for their intelligence and magickal aptitude as well.
This is 2nd Era, consider them more akin to their Arena and Daggerfall selves.
Taken from UESP.net for Argonians in Arena: "They are known for their intelligence, agility, and speed."
Upon selection of the argonian race in Arena you get the following prompt:
Know ye this also:
Thy race is born of the swamps, thou hast stayed thyself from the open fields, for thou art hunters of a different sort, those who stalk thy prey in the still black waters...
Seems to me, it's just like many others have been saying. They are a hybrid race. Not just intelligence...
And in daggerfall they had:
Argonian Males
+10 Agility
+10 Speed
-10 Endurance
Argonian Females
+10 Strength
-10 Endurance
Argonians best attribute from EVERY(minus skyrim) game has been their speed. The only way you can really say they are even hybrids is if you look at the difference between the male and female attributes, but speed and athleticism has always been strong between the sexes. Some how zos thinks these racials match lore....... I think what makes me the most angry about this is how orcs get a speed bonus though, it is legitimately the biggest slap in the face racial issue in this game by far. I honestly don't think lore was taken into account at all giving the slowest *** race a speed boost and giving the lowest hp race a health bonus. Its kinda scary really, having a team making your game that chooses to completely ignore the previous 5 games worth of examples on how to make racials. Got to wonder how else could they arrive at the INSANE leap in logic to make the slowest race into the fastest one. They must have totally ignored all 5 previous games, it is honestly the only way. Either that or they did it on purpose to make people upset.
No op they may say they wanted racials to match the lore better, but in reality they just wanted a healer race. If they really would have looked at lore, then imperials would have been given the healing bonus(+10 restoration in skyrim, the most up to date game) and they would have gotten their healer race. They obviously do not care about lore and throw the word around as an attempt to fool blind people that have never even looked at racials in previous games. Argonian race changes are going to sell like mad with all the healers that want to be meta, it has nothing to do with lore.
Sadly this is true, *sigh* and here I thought argonians would finally be something better than a heal bot.Edited by Anti_Virus on July 11, 2016 12:49AMPower Wealth And Influence.2 -
AtmaDarkwolf✭✭✭i personally think that passives should be only a way to reach 'soft caps' and that ANY race of ANY class can reach any amount, but (with examples) a nord warrior would get his 'full bonus' from stam related stuff much quicker, and could put a few extra into magicka or health.
Point is, this whole idea at the start was fine(when we DID have softcaps) but now its just forcing people to play as either : A roleplayer, OR as a race he/she would prefer NOT to just to reach the values needed for some job.
Because yes, some of the races are more adept at becoming warriors or mages, but there is NO evidence that a huge, overwhelming ratio of the population are 'of that type' (IE there are tons and tons of mages and rouges who are nords, just that they would have to work a little harder to do such, but in the end would not be behind a breton for the most part)0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And not just that - in Skyrim they gave Orc a bonus for enchantments - what is absolutely weird - they should be good with blacksmithing, but enchanting is not really their speciality - so Bethesda themselves broke lore with it already.1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bretons were downgraded several times - in Oblivion they had 50% magic resistance, in Skyrim just 25% left and in ESO this ability is gone. It made for incredibly powerful mages in Oblivion paired with the atronach birthsign in the later game. Well, it was already good from the very start like this - 50% of all magic against them is resisted and from the rest 50% is absorbed - that is a 75% shield against magic attacks basically. Bretons did not have to fear magic attacks against them, they could embrace them as atronachs - it refilled their magicka pool.Edited by Lysette on July 11, 2016 1:01AM0 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bretons were downgraded several times - in Oblivion they had 50% magic resistance, in Skyrim just 25% left and in ESO this ability is gone. It made for incredibly powerful mages in Oblivion paired with the atronach birthsign in the later game. Well, it was already good from the very start like this - 50% of all magic against them is resisted and from the rest 50% is absorbed - that is a 75% shield against magic attacks basically. Bretons did not have to fear magic attacks against them, they could embrace them as atronachs - it refilled their magicka pool.
Well they're pretty decent in this game, Wrobel saud that bretons are the "sustained" magica race in the game.
I think bretons are suppose to be the sorcerer in heavy armor you know a "mage knight"Power Wealth And Influence.1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ShadowStarKing wrote: »Bretons were downgraded several times - in Oblivion they had 50% magic resistance, in Skyrim just 25% left and in ESO this ability is gone. It made for incredibly powerful mages in Oblivion paired with the atronach birthsign in the later game. Well, it was already good from the very start like this - 50% of all magic against them is resisted and from the rest 50% is absorbed - that is a 75% shield against magic attacks basically. Bretons did not have to fear magic attacks against them, they could embrace them as atronachs - it refilled their magicka pool.
Well they're pretty decent in this game, Wrobel saud that bretons are the "sustained" magica race in the game.
I think bretons are suppose to be the sorcerer in heavy armor you know a "mage knight"
This is the next thing, what bothers me with ESO - that armor classes do not have any effect on magic abilities. I mean negative ones - in other TES games wearing armor made your magical abilities weaker and slowed you down accordingly to the armor class.
"Magic knights" are called Spellswords
Edited by Lysette on July 11, 2016 1:10AM0 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShadowStarKing wrote: »Bretons were downgraded several times - in Oblivion they had 50% magic resistance, in Skyrim just 25% left and in ESO this ability is gone. It made for incredibly powerful mages in Oblivion paired with the atronach birthsign in the later game. Well, it was already good from the very start like this - 50% of all magic against them is resisted and from the rest 50% is absorbed - that is a 75% shield against magic attacks basically. Bretons did not have to fear magic attacks against them, they could embrace them as atronachs - it refilled their magicka pool.
Well they're pretty decent in this game, Wrobel saud that bretons are the "sustained" magica race in the game.
I think bretons are suppose to be the sorcerer in heavy armor you know a "mage knight"
This is the next thing, what bothers me with ESO - that armor classes do not have any effect on magic abilities. I mean negative ones - in other TES games wearing armor made your magical abilities weaker and slowed you down accordingly to the armor class.
Yeah, well I think you mean armor choice shouldn't effect attributes right?Power Wealth And Influence.1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ShadowStarKing wrote: »ShadowStarKing wrote: »Bretons were downgraded several times - in Oblivion they had 50% magic resistance, in Skyrim just 25% left and in ESO this ability is gone. It made for incredibly powerful mages in Oblivion paired with the atronach birthsign in the later game. Well, it was already good from the very start like this - 50% of all magic against them is resisted and from the rest 50% is absorbed - that is a 75% shield against magic attacks basically. Bretons did not have to fear magic attacks against them, they could embrace them as atronachs - it refilled their magicka pool.
Well they're pretty decent in this game, Wrobel saud that bretons are the "sustained" magica race in the game.
I think bretons are suppose to be the sorcerer in heavy armor you know a "mage knight"
This is the next thing, what bothers me with ESO - that armor classes do not have any effect on magic abilities. I mean negative ones - in other TES games wearing armor made your magical abilities weaker and slowed you down accordingly to the armor class.
Yeah, well I think you mean armor choice shouldn't effect attributes right?
No, in former TES games your efficiency with magicka was negatively effected by armor you were wearing - as well as your movement speed - light armor had just slight negative effects but heavy armor had significant effects - I miss that. In Skyrim there were perks to nullify these negative effects - dependent on the armor class acquirable in the earlier game with light armor and in the later game with heavy armor. And it had an effect on sneak as well - heavy armor was very noisy for example - easier to be detected. In Oblivion just the weight of boots mattered, in Skyrim the whole weight of the armor.
Bethesda had this principle in pretty much every game I played from them - in Fallout for example, I often sneak with no armor at all, practically naked, to get near to my target and assassinate it - with full sneak bonus.Edited by Lysette on July 11, 2016 1:39AM0 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShadowStarKing wrote: »ShadowStarKing wrote: »Bretons were downgraded several times - in Oblivion they had 50% magic resistance, in Skyrim just 25% left and in ESO this ability is gone. It made for incredibly powerful mages in Oblivion paired with the atronach birthsign in the later game. Well, it was already good from the very start like this - 50% of all magic against them is resisted and from the rest 50% is absorbed - that is a 75% shield against magic attacks basically. Bretons did not have to fear magic attacks against them, they could embrace them as atronachs - it refilled their magicka pool.
Well they're pretty decent in this game, Wrobel saud that bretons are the "sustained" magica race in the game.
I think bretons are suppose to be the sorcerer in heavy armor you know a "mage knight"
This is the next thing, what bothers me with ESO - that armor classes do not have any effect on magic abilities. I mean negative ones - in other TES games wearing armor made your magical abilities weaker and slowed you down accordingly to the armor class.
Yeah, well I think you mean armor choice shouldn't effect attributes right?
No, in former TES games your efficiency with magicka was negatively effected by armor you were wearing - as well as your movement speed - light armor had just slight negative effects but heavy armor had significant effects - I miss that. In Skyrim there were perks to nullify these negative effects - dependent on the armor class acquirable in the earlier game with light armor and in the later game with heavy armor. And it had an effect on sneak as well - heavy armor was very noisy for example - easier to be detected. In Oblivion just the weight of boots mattered, in Skyrim the whole weight of the armor.
Bethesda had this principle in pretty much every game I played from them - in Fallout for example, I often sneak with no armor at all, practically naked, to get near to my target and assassinate it - with full sneak bonus.
That sounds awesome I wish armor had those properties in ESO.Power Wealth And Influence.2 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »ShadowStarKing wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »I'm disappointed tbh.
This change was only made to cater to people who dont understand how those +exp passives work, and it would be much more lore-friendly to add more "shadowscale" flavour to the race.
What do we know about argonians? They can survive in Black March which is not exactly a friendly environment. They're known for their guerilla warfare. If you look at their passives in previous games, they had nightblade-ish set of bonuses.
And yes, they had +to intelligence and some magic schools, but it was never comparable to insane 150% magicka boost that altmers used to have (in Morrowind).
Yeah, I was hoping for more shadow scale friendly passives, since that's how their lore plus imoI thing argonians look cooler in leather than wearing rags or plate
Yeah, they surely needed a buff.
But the thing is, this buff makes them less versatile then they are supposed to be.
I've read a lot of ingame books and dialogues, but I've never seen any mentions that argonians are superior at healing others. Though I've read that during Oblivion crisis Hist took control on all Black March's argonians and they've counter attacked dremoras so furiously that they had to close Oblivion gates. Surely they didnt heal dremoras to death or something.
Also, Black March is always described as a very unfriendly land. So it would make sense for its inhabitants to be more endurant.
In Oblivion it depended on gender - whilst males were the typical rogue/shadowscale type, their females were just average in this but had an affinity to magic - so this magical thing is not taken out of thin air - but it was just applied to females before.
In Morrowind too, female and male chars had different stats.
Yes, but "magicka" races still had stronger affinity to magic. For example, altmers in morrowind had 150% extra magicka for example. And argonian magicka bonuses werent related to healing (except +5 bonus in Skyrim), and they were mixed with sneak etc.
Yes, but when you look at the starting attributes, argonian females had 50 intelligence and 40 willpower - whilst willpower is average, 50 intelligence is exceptional and governed magicka - whereas the males had 40 intelligence and 30 willpower, what made them pretty vulnerable to magic, but they had 50 speed and 50 agility, whereas the females had just average 40 in those.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races
I played argonian females in Oblivion born under the atronach birthsign - that made for quite cool mages with a large magicka pool, which is refilled in the later game pretty much constantly by magicka-based opponents. And unlike Altmer they do not have a disadvantage when it comes to magic used on them.
Yes, but the disadvantages are meant to balance OP things, like altmer fortify magicka passive or same effect from atronach mundus.
And in addition to that passive, altmers of both genders had 50 intelligence, so I wouldnt say that magicka pool is comparable.
Altmer were basically god-like after a while, when you had chosen atronach birthsign as well - all their disadvantages can easily be removed by enchantments and if they use daggers with absorption magic, they can be really nasty in melee as well. I did not play a lot of altmers therefore - around level 25 they were so powerful that it was no fun to play anymore.
I agree.
But it just proves that altmers are stronger mages in general than argonians. Argonians on the other hand, are much more sturdy and versatile, and will survive where almost any altmer would die a horrible death. So imo that healing focus pigeonholes them too much.Edited by LadyNalcarya on July 11, 2016 6:21PMDro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU0 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ShadowStarKing wrote: »ShadowStarKing wrote: »Bretons were downgraded several times - in Oblivion they had 50% magic resistance, in Skyrim just 25% left and in ESO this ability is gone. It made for incredibly powerful mages in Oblivion paired with the atronach birthsign in the later game. Well, it was already good from the very start like this - 50% of all magic against them is resisted and from the rest 50% is absorbed - that is a 75% shield against magic attacks basically. Bretons did not have to fear magic attacks against them, they could embrace them as atronachs - it refilled their magicka pool.
Well they're pretty decent in this game, Wrobel saud that bretons are the "sustained" magica race in the game.
I think bretons are suppose to be the sorcerer in heavy armor you know a "mage knight"
This is the next thing, what bothers me with ESO - that armor classes do not have any effect on magic abilities. I mean negative ones - in other TES games wearing armor made your magical abilities weaker and slowed you down accordingly to the armor class.
Yeah, well I think you mean armor choice shouldn't effect attributes right?
No, in former TES games your efficiency with magicka was negatively effected by armor you were wearing - as well as your movement speed - light armor had just slight negative effects but heavy armor had significant effects - I miss that. In Skyrim there were perks to nullify these negative effects - dependent on the armor class acquirable in the earlier game with light armor and in the later game with heavy armor. And it had an effect on sneak as well - heavy armor was very noisy for example - easier to be detected. In Oblivion just the weight of boots mattered, in Skyrim the whole weight of the armor.
Bethesda had this principle in pretty much every game I played from them - in Fallout for example, I often sneak with no armor at all, practically naked, to get near to my target and assassinate it - with full sneak bonus.
Agreed, having both negative and positive effects would be much more fun. Character building would've been more balanced and complicated, and it would slow down the power creep a bit.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »ShadowStarKing wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »I'm disappointed tbh.
This change was only made to cater to people who dont understand how those +exp passives work, and it would be much more lore-friendly to add more "shadowscale" flavour to the race.
What do we know about argonians? They can survive in Black March which is not exactly a friendly environment. They're known for their guerilla warfare. If you look at their passives in previous games, they had nightblade-ish set of bonuses.
And yes, they had +to intelligence and some magic schools, but it was never comparable to insane 150% magicka boost that altmers used to have (in Morrowind).
Yeah, I was hoping for more shadow scale friendly passives, since that's how their lore plus imoI thing argonians look cooler in leather than wearing rags or plate
Yeah, they surely needed a buff.
But the thing is, this buff makes them less versatile then they are supposed to be.
I've read a lot of ingame books and dialogues, but I've never seen any mentions that argonians are superior at healing others. Though I've read that during Oblivion crisis Hist took control on all Black March's argonians and they've counter attacked dremoras so furiously that they had to close Oblivion gates. Surely they didnt heal dremoras to death or something.
Also, Black March is always described as a very unfriendly land. So it would make sense for its inhabitants to be more endurant.
In Oblivion it depended on gender - whilst males were the typical rogue/shadowscale type, their females were just average in this but had an affinity to magic - so this magical thing is not taken out of thin air - but it was just applied to females before.
In Morrowind too, female and male chars had different stats.
Yes, but "magicka" races still had stronger affinity to magic. For example, altmers in morrowind had 150% extra magicka for example. And argonian magicka bonuses werent related to healing (except +5 bonus in Skyrim), and they were mixed with sneak etc.
Yes, but when you look at the starting attributes, argonian females had 50 intelligence and 40 willpower - whilst willpower is average, 50 intelligence is exceptional and governed magicka - whereas the males had 40 intelligence and 30 willpower, what made them pretty vulnerable to magic, but they had 50 speed and 50 agility, whereas the females had just average 40 in those.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races
I played argonian females in Oblivion born under the atronach birthsign - that made for quite cool mages with a large magicka pool, which is refilled in the later game pretty much constantly by magicka-based opponents. And unlike Altmer they do not have a disadvantage when it comes to magic used on them.
Yes, but the disadvantages are meant to balance OP things, like altmer fortify magicka passive or same effect from atronach mundus.
And in addition to that passive, altmers of both genders had 50 intelligence, so I wouldnt say that magicka pool is comparable.
Altmer were basically god-like after a while, when you had chosen atronach birthsign as well - all their disadvantages can easily be removed by enchantments and if they use daggers with absorption magic, they can be really nasty in melee as well. I did not play a lot of altmers therefore - around level 25 they were so powerful that it was no fun to play anymore.
I agree.
But it just proves that altmers are stronger mages in general than argonians. Argonians on the other hand, are much more sturdy and versatile, and will survive where almost any altmer would die a horrible death. So imo that healing focus pigeonholes them too much.
not really in Oblivion - Argonians had resistances against poison and diseases, which were awesome - but they had just 30 endurance, and endurance governed the health points and how many you gain with every level. In unmodded Oblivion you had to focus early on on endurance or you were weak in the later game - and Argonians had to care for this even more. Breath submerged was a huge advantage IMO, with all the many waterways in Cyrrodil (with mainly no slaughter fish in them in Oblivion) this was a great way to get around. I would have loved a feature like his in ESO for Argonians - being undetectable while swimming or something like that.Edited by Lysette on July 11, 2016 6:31PM0 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »ShadowStarKing wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »I'm disappointed tbh.
This change was only made to cater to people who dont understand how those +exp passives work, and it would be much more lore-friendly to add more "shadowscale" flavour to the race.
What do we know about argonians? They can survive in Black March which is not exactly a friendly environment. They're known for their guerilla warfare. If you look at their passives in previous games, they had nightblade-ish set of bonuses.
And yes, they had +to intelligence and some magic schools, but it was never comparable to insane 150% magicka boost that altmers used to have (in Morrowind).
Yeah, I was hoping for more shadow scale friendly passives, since that's how their lore plus imoI thing argonians look cooler in leather than wearing rags or plate
Yeah, they surely needed a buff.
But the thing is, this buff makes them less versatile then they are supposed to be.
I've read a lot of ingame books and dialogues, but I've never seen any mentions that argonians are superior at healing others. Though I've read that during Oblivion crisis Hist took control on all Black March's argonians and they've counter attacked dremoras so furiously that they had to close Oblivion gates. Surely they didnt heal dremoras to death or something.
Also, Black March is always described as a very unfriendly land. So it would make sense for its inhabitants to be more endurant.
In Oblivion it depended on gender - whilst males were the typical rogue/shadowscale type, their females were just average in this but had an affinity to magic - so this magical thing is not taken out of thin air - but it was just applied to females before.
In Morrowind too, female and male chars had different stats.
Yes, but "magicka" races still had stronger affinity to magic. For example, altmers in morrowind had 150% extra magicka for example. And argonian magicka bonuses werent related to healing (except +5 bonus in Skyrim), and they were mixed with sneak etc.
Yes, but when you look at the starting attributes, argonian females had 50 intelligence and 40 willpower - whilst willpower is average, 50 intelligence is exceptional and governed magicka - whereas the males had 40 intelligence and 30 willpower, what made them pretty vulnerable to magic, but they had 50 speed and 50 agility, whereas the females had just average 40 in those.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races
I played argonian females in Oblivion born under the atronach birthsign - that made for quite cool mages with a large magicka pool, which is refilled in the later game pretty much constantly by magicka-based opponents. And unlike Altmer they do not have a disadvantage when it comes to magic used on them.
Yes, but the disadvantages are meant to balance OP things, like altmer fortify magicka passive or same effect from atronach mundus.
And in addition to that passive, altmers of both genders had 50 intelligence, so I wouldnt say that magicka pool is comparable.
Altmer were basically god-like after a while, when you had chosen atronach birthsign as well - all their disadvantages can easily be removed by enchantments and if they use daggers with absorption magic, they can be really nasty in melee as well. I did not play a lot of altmers therefore - around level 25 they were so powerful that it was no fun to play anymore.
I agree.
But it just proves that altmers are stronger mages in general than argonians. Argonians on the other hand, are much more sturdy and versatile, and will survive where almost any altmer would die a horrible death. So imo that healing focus pigeonholes them too much.
not really in Oblivion - Argonians had resistances against poison and diseases, which were awesome - but they had just 30 endurance, and endurance governed the health points and how many you gain with every level. In unmodded Oblivion you had to focus early on on endurance or you were weak in the later game - and Argonians had to care for this even more. Breath submerged was a huge advantage IMO, with all the many waterways in Cyrrodil (with mainly no slaughter fish in them in Oblivion) this was a great way to get around. I would have loved a feature like his in ESO for Argonians - being undetectable while swimming or something like that.
Yeah, but I mean, full resist to poisons and 75% resist to diseases is extremely helpful in Black March.
As for endurance points, I think it was possible to level up skills that boost it and get a few +5 bonuses on low level to balance things a bit...
And yeah, that would've been an interesting feature. I think some kind of sneak passives (like khajiit's or bosmer's) would've been nice too.
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »ShadowStarKing wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »I'm disappointed tbh.
This change was only made to cater to people who dont understand how those +exp passives work, and it would be much more lore-friendly to add more "shadowscale" flavour to the race.
What do we know about argonians? They can survive in Black March which is not exactly a friendly environment. They're known for their guerilla warfare. If you look at their passives in previous games, they had nightblade-ish set of bonuses.
And yes, they had +to intelligence and some magic schools, but it was never comparable to insane 150% magicka boost that altmers used to have (in Morrowind).
Yeah, I was hoping for more shadow scale friendly passives, since that's how their lore plus imoI thing argonians look cooler in leather than wearing rags or plate
Yeah, they surely needed a buff.
But the thing is, this buff makes them less versatile then they are supposed to be.
I've read a lot of ingame books and dialogues, but I've never seen any mentions that argonians are superior at healing others. Though I've read that during Oblivion crisis Hist took control on all Black March's argonians and they've counter attacked dremoras so furiously that they had to close Oblivion gates. Surely they didnt heal dremoras to death or something.
Also, Black March is always described as a very unfriendly land. So it would make sense for its inhabitants to be more endurant.
In Oblivion it depended on gender - whilst males were the typical rogue/shadowscale type, their females were just average in this but had an affinity to magic - so this magical thing is not taken out of thin air - but it was just applied to females before.
In Morrowind too, female and male chars had different stats.
Yes, but "magicka" races still had stronger affinity to magic. For example, altmers in morrowind had 150% extra magicka for example. And argonian magicka bonuses werent related to healing (except +5 bonus in Skyrim), and they were mixed with sneak etc.
Yes, but when you look at the starting attributes, argonian females had 50 intelligence and 40 willpower - whilst willpower is average, 50 intelligence is exceptional and governed magicka - whereas the males had 40 intelligence and 30 willpower, what made them pretty vulnerable to magic, but they had 50 speed and 50 agility, whereas the females had just average 40 in those.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races
I played argonian females in Oblivion born under the atronach birthsign - that made for quite cool mages with a large magicka pool, which is refilled in the later game pretty much constantly by magicka-based opponents. And unlike Altmer they do not have a disadvantage when it comes to magic used on them.
Yes, but the disadvantages are meant to balance OP things, like altmer fortify magicka passive or same effect from atronach mundus.
And in addition to that passive, altmers of both genders had 50 intelligence, so I wouldnt say that magicka pool is comparable.
Altmer were basically god-like after a while, when you had chosen atronach birthsign as well - all their disadvantages can easily be removed by enchantments and if they use daggers with absorption magic, they can be really nasty in melee as well. I did not play a lot of altmers therefore - around level 25 they were so powerful that it was no fun to play anymore.
I agree.
But it just proves that altmers are stronger mages in general than argonians. Argonians on the other hand, are much more sturdy and versatile, and will survive where almost any altmer would die a horrible death. So imo that healing focus pigeonholes them too much.
not really in Oblivion - Argonians had resistances against poison and diseases, which were awesome - but they had just 30 endurance, and endurance governed the health points and how many you gain with every level. In unmodded Oblivion you had to focus early on on endurance or you were weak in the later game - and Argonians had to care for this even more. Breath submerged was a huge advantage IMO, with all the many waterways in Cyrrodil (with mainly no slaughter fish in them in Oblivion) this was a great way to get around. I would have loved a feature like his in ESO for Argonians - being undetectable while swimming or something like that.
Yeah, but I mean, full resist to poisons and 75% resist to diseases is extremely helpful in Black March.
As for endurance points, I think it was possible to level up skills that boost it and get a few +5 bonuses on low level to balance things a bit...
And yeah, that would've been an interesting feature. I think some kind of sneak passives (like khajiit's or bosmer's) would've been nice too.
Yeah or the rather classic boni to pickpocketing and lockpicking - for Bosmer and Argonians - would have been nice. Overall it is sad, that Mr. Wrobel comes up with passives, which are not really reflecting the nature of the races, but are just seen from the perspective of having somewhat a balance - if you want balance, why have races at all?- balance and roleplay contradict each other IMO.Edited by Lysette on July 11, 2016 10:06PM1 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »ShadowStarKing wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »I'm disappointed tbh.
This change was only made to cater to people who dont understand how those +exp passives work, and it would be much more lore-friendly to add more "shadowscale" flavour to the race.
What do we know about argonians? They can survive in Black March which is not exactly a friendly environment. They're known for their guerilla warfare. If you look at their passives in previous games, they had nightblade-ish set of bonuses.
And yes, they had +to intelligence and some magic schools, but it was never comparable to insane 150% magicka boost that altmers used to have (in Morrowind).
Yeah, I was hoping for more shadow scale friendly passives, since that's how their lore plus imoI thing argonians look cooler in leather than wearing rags or plate
Yeah, they surely needed a buff.
But the thing is, this buff makes them less versatile then they are supposed to be.
I've read a lot of ingame books and dialogues, but I've never seen any mentions that argonians are superior at healing others. Though I've read that during Oblivion crisis Hist took control on all Black March's argonians and they've counter attacked dremoras so furiously that they had to close Oblivion gates. Surely they didnt heal dremoras to death or something.
Also, Black March is always described as a very unfriendly land. So it would make sense for its inhabitants to be more endurant.
In Oblivion it depended on gender - whilst males were the typical rogue/shadowscale type, their females were just average in this but had an affinity to magic - so this magical thing is not taken out of thin air - but it was just applied to females before.
In Morrowind too, female and male chars had different stats.
Yes, but "magicka" races still had stronger affinity to magic. For example, altmers in morrowind had 150% extra magicka for example. And argonian magicka bonuses werent related to healing (except +5 bonus in Skyrim), and they were mixed with sneak etc.
Yes, but when you look at the starting attributes, argonian females had 50 intelligence and 40 willpower - whilst willpower is average, 50 intelligence is exceptional and governed magicka - whereas the males had 40 intelligence and 30 willpower, what made them pretty vulnerable to magic, but they had 50 speed and 50 agility, whereas the females had just average 40 in those.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races
I played argonian females in Oblivion born under the atronach birthsign - that made for quite cool mages with a large magicka pool, which is refilled in the later game pretty much constantly by magicka-based opponents. And unlike Altmer they do not have a disadvantage when it comes to magic used on them.
Yes, but the disadvantages are meant to balance OP things, like altmer fortify magicka passive or same effect from atronach mundus.
And in addition to that passive, altmers of both genders had 50 intelligence, so I wouldnt say that magicka pool is comparable.
Altmer were basically god-like after a while, when you had chosen atronach birthsign as well - all their disadvantages can easily be removed by enchantments and if they use daggers with absorption magic, they can be really nasty in melee as well. I did not play a lot of altmers therefore - around level 25 they were so powerful that it was no fun to play anymore.
I agree.
But it just proves that altmers are stronger mages in general than argonians. Argonians on the other hand, are much more sturdy and versatile, and will survive where almost any altmer would die a horrible death. So imo that healing focus pigeonholes them too much.
not really in Oblivion - Argonians had resistances against poison and diseases, which were awesome - but they had just 30 endurance, and endurance governed the health points and how many you gain with every level. In unmodded Oblivion you had to focus early on on endurance or you were weak in the later game - and Argonians had to care for this even more. Breath submerged was a huge advantage IMO, with all the many waterways in Cyrrodil (with mainly no slaughter fish in them in Oblivion) this was a great way to get around. I would have loved a feature like his in ESO for Argonians - being undetectable while swimming or something like that.
Yeah, but I mean, full resist to poisons and 75% resist to diseases is extremely helpful in Black March.
As for endurance points, I think it was possible to level up skills that boost it and get a few +5 bonuses on low level to balance things a bit...
And yeah, that would've been an interesting feature. I think some kind of sneak passives (like khajiit's or bosmer's) would've been nice too.
Yeah or the rather classic boni to pickpocketing and lockpicking - for Bosmer and Argonians - would have been nice. Overall it is sad, that Mr. Wrobel comes up with passives, which are not really reflecting the nature of the races, but are just seen from the perspective of having somewhat a balance - if you want balance, why have races at all?- balance and roleplay contradict each other IMO.
What would you propose for lore matching argonian changes in ESO?Power Wealth And Influence.0 -
PlagueMonk✭✭✭✭✭As many have point out.....MANY of the abilities that Argonians have in other ES games don't apply in ESO; Underwater breathing, dragging opponents into the water and drowned them, unarmed combat (teeth and formidable tail), spear use, etc......
WHILE many things could be adapted but aren't; Scaly hide, quick regeneration, stealthy fighter, quick an nimble, etc.
BUT then there's the complete misrepresentation; Higher health (even though they had low endurance/HPs), masters at healing (both themselves and now other apparently), potion masters, etc.
Zenimax / Worbel have been fairly faithful to most of the races but when it comes the Argonians they basically threw all that lore out the window and just did whatever in the hell they wanted. Very frustrating when people who have played previous ES games expect the ESO races to represent a certain play style but are greeted with........HEALERS! ><
Now here is your ES history lesson (taken directly from previous Elder Scroll game descriptions):
"Enigmatic and intelligent, the Argonians are experts of guerrilla tactics, and their natural abilities suit their swampy homeland. They have developed immunities to diseases that have plagued many would-be explorers in the region, and they are capable of easily exploring underwater locations due to their ability to breathe water. Argonians also have some resistance to poison."
"The Argonians' stealth and lockpicking make them brilliant assassins, thieves, scouts, and ambushers. Their lack of combat bonuses in archery and one-handed weapons can be overcome by natural skill leveling and play. Argonians can be used fairly well as spellswords, but conjuration training may be necessary. They can also be useful mage-thieves due to their skills in both magic and stealth, though one may want some illusion training."
"They are known as the foremost experts in guerrilla warfare throughout the Starry Heart, a reputation brought upon them by defending their borders from enemies for countless centuries. Argonians have a lifespan similar to that of humans. According to the First Era Scholar Brendan the Persistent “the Argonian people have, throughout Tamrielic history, been perhaps the most misunderstood, vilified, and reviled of all the sentient races. Yet, those who have taken the time to experience Argonian culture have gained a greater appreciation for this noble and beautiful people". However, it should be noted that he himself went missing in his final expedition into the deeper swamps of their homeland."
"The Shadowscales are an order of Argonian assassins originating in Black Marsh. Argonians born under the sign of the Shadow are taken at birth and offered to the Dark Brotherhood where they are trained in the arts of stealth and assassination. Any Shadowscale who lives to come of age is accepted into the Dark Brotherhood as a full member of the family. They may also leave the Brotherhood and return to Black Marsh to serve the Argonian people. They act with impunity there, and some serve as personal assassins to the King of Black Marsh."
Argonians males can however make the finest nightblades and excel as scouts and witchhunters, with males being more adept at thievery. Females being more adept casters more suitably go out of the lines of stealth. Going all-out mage, sorcerer or pilgrim with females will work too, but necessitates a birthsign that increases magicka, and males can make decent thieves, rogues and assassins.
Argonians are best suited to the role of a close quarters Assassin. This is because Illusion, Alchemy, Mysticism, and Security are all valued skills for an Assassin. Many players enjoy roleplaying as a Shadowscale. An Argonian's natural availability of immunities and resist effect can be further augmented by selecting The Atronach birthsign. The single drawback to having this birthsign can easily be negated by having a single Welkynd Stone and at least two identical scrolls weighing 0.1 pounds in the inventory at all times. Whenever magicka gets too low, simply scroll duplicate the Welkynd Stone and use one of the two (or more) that will result.
Argonians possess tails, the only race besides the Khajiit to do so. When swimming they use their tails to propel themselves as they glide through the water like a fish (this does not however equate into an actual speed bonus in-game when swimming as an Argonian, the Speed attribute still determines that). An Argonian's tail is also used for balance giving them an extra advantage in certain situations. This is one of the many reasons Argonians are effective as thieves and assassins.
and the Pièce De Résistance directly from the ESO website!
"Well-versed in the use of magic, stealth, and subtle blades, the Argonians of Black Marsh are mysterious and hard to read. Experts at guerilla warfare, they often serve as scouts and skirmishers. Only they truly know the reason they’ve joined forces with the Dark Elves, their ex-slavers."
I mean if I was reading all of that and applying it to ESO I would think they would make THE primo magicka Nightblade and at least good mages (not the best tank OR HEALER or stamina playstyle)
I see the same damn things over and over and over but none of that really matters to Zenimax it would seem.Edited by PlagueMonk on July 12, 2016 4:20AM3 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ShadowStarKing wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »ShadowStarKing wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »I'm disappointed tbh.
This change was only made to cater to people who dont understand how those +exp passives work, and it would be much more lore-friendly to add more "shadowscale" flavour to the race.
What do we know about argonians? They can survive in Black March which is not exactly a friendly environment. They're known for their guerilla warfare. If you look at their passives in previous games, they had nightblade-ish set of bonuses.
And yes, they had +to intelligence and some magic schools, but it was never comparable to insane 150% magicka boost that altmers used to have (in Morrowind).
Yeah, I was hoping for more shadow scale friendly passives, since that's how their lore plus imoI thing argonians look cooler in leather than wearing rags or plate
Yeah, they surely needed a buff.
But the thing is, this buff makes them less versatile then they are supposed to be.
I've read a lot of ingame books and dialogues, but I've never seen any mentions that argonians are superior at healing others. Though I've read that during Oblivion crisis Hist took control on all Black March's argonians and they've counter attacked dremoras so furiously that they had to close Oblivion gates. Surely they didnt heal dremoras to death or something.
Also, Black March is always described as a very unfriendly land. So it would make sense for its inhabitants to be more endurant.
In Oblivion it depended on gender - whilst males were the typical rogue/shadowscale type, their females were just average in this but had an affinity to magic - so this magical thing is not taken out of thin air - but it was just applied to females before.
In Morrowind too, female and male chars had different stats.
Yes, but "magicka" races still had stronger affinity to magic. For example, altmers in morrowind had 150% extra magicka for example. And argonian magicka bonuses werent related to healing (except +5 bonus in Skyrim), and they were mixed with sneak etc.
Yes, but when you look at the starting attributes, argonian females had 50 intelligence and 40 willpower - whilst willpower is average, 50 intelligence is exceptional and governed magicka - whereas the males had 40 intelligence and 30 willpower, what made them pretty vulnerable to magic, but they had 50 speed and 50 agility, whereas the females had just average 40 in those.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races
I played argonian females in Oblivion born under the atronach birthsign - that made for quite cool mages with a large magicka pool, which is refilled in the later game pretty much constantly by magicka-based opponents. And unlike Altmer they do not have a disadvantage when it comes to magic used on them.
Yes, but the disadvantages are meant to balance OP things, like altmer fortify magicka passive or same effect from atronach mundus.
And in addition to that passive, altmers of both genders had 50 intelligence, so I wouldnt say that magicka pool is comparable.
Altmer were basically god-like after a while, when you had chosen atronach birthsign as well - all their disadvantages can easily be removed by enchantments and if they use daggers with absorption magic, they can be really nasty in melee as well. I did not play a lot of altmers therefore - around level 25 they were so powerful that it was no fun to play anymore.
I agree.
But it just proves that altmers are stronger mages in general than argonians. Argonians on the other hand, are much more sturdy and versatile, and will survive where almost any altmer would die a horrible death. So imo that healing focus pigeonholes them too much.
not really in Oblivion - Argonians had resistances against poison and diseases, which were awesome - but they had just 30 endurance, and endurance governed the health points and how many you gain with every level. In unmodded Oblivion you had to focus early on on endurance or you were weak in the later game - and Argonians had to care for this even more. Breath submerged was a huge advantage IMO, with all the many waterways in Cyrrodil (with mainly no slaughter fish in them in Oblivion) this was a great way to get around. I would have loved a feature like his in ESO for Argonians - being undetectable while swimming or something like that.
Yeah, but I mean, full resist to poisons and 75% resist to diseases is extremely helpful in Black March.
As for endurance points, I think it was possible to level up skills that boost it and get a few +5 bonuses on low level to balance things a bit...
And yeah, that would've been an interesting feature. I think some kind of sneak passives (like khajiit's or bosmer's) would've been nice too.
Yeah or the rather classic boni to pickpocketing and lockpicking - for Bosmer and Argonians - would have been nice. Overall it is sad, that Mr. Wrobel comes up with passives, which are not really reflecting the nature of the races, but are just seen from the perspective of having somewhat a balance - if you want balance, why have races at all?- balance and roleplay contradict each other IMO.
What would you propose for lore matching argonian changes in ESO?
Well, I would give Argonians for example a 35% reduction of stamina costs while sprinting and crouching - because in Oblivion Argonians and Redguard were the only races which had +10 Athletics as race bonus. And eventually a speed bonus - speed and agility were both major attributes for male Argonians in Oblivion and nothing reflects that in ESO at all.
Furthermore it would make sense to me, that a water-loving reptilian race is nearly undetectable in water - think of crocodiles for example, who ambush land animals from the water being nearly undetectable until they are near enough for the jump attack. So I would suggest a massive reduction of detection range while swimming in armor, and undetectable when naked.
Furthermore a lockpicking and pickpocketing bonus - Argonians had +10 security in Oblivion, this is immensely capable with picking locks and pockets.
Argonians had +5 in illusion magic in Oblivion, so I would give them a better stealth ability for a short amount of time - different to that of Bosmer and Khajiit as I would make it a delay before an NPC is capable to detect them - like 2-3 seconds, where an Argonian would not be detected after entering the detection range. This would be unique and unlike the stealth capability of other races. Basically an ability to blend in and deceive the mind of an observer for long enough to escape - just like Octopus do that with their camouflage abilities. They use illusion even it is not illusion magic, but we have this in nature in many ways - camouflage by blending into the scenery and become "invisible". So this would make sense to me for a race which is capable to deceive by illusion.Edited by Lysette on July 12, 2016 1:59AM1 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭PlagueMonk wrote: »As many have point out.....MANY of the abilities that Argonians have in other ES games don't apply in ESO; Underwater breathing, dragging opponents into the water and drowned them, unarmed combat (teeth and formidable tail), spear use, etc......
WHILE many things could be adapted but aren't; Scaly hide, quick regeneration, stealthy fighter, quick an nimble, etc.
BUT then there's the complete misrepresentation; Higher health (even though they had low endurance/HPs), masters at healing (both themselves and now other apparently), potion masters, etc.
Zenimax / Worbel have been fairly faithful to most of the races but when it comes the Argonians they basically threw all that lore out the window and just did whatever in the hell they wanted. Very frustrating when people who have played previous ES games expect the ESO races to represent a certain play style but are greeted with........HEALERS! ><
Now here is your ES history lesson:
"Enigmatic and intelligent, the Argonians are experts of guerrilla tactics, and their natural abilities suit their swampy homeland. They have developed immunities to diseases that have plagued many would-be explorers in the region, and they are capable of easily exploring underwater locations due to their ability to breathe water. Argonians also have some resistance to poison."
"The Argonians' stealth and lockpicking make them brilliant assassins, thieves, scouts, and ambushers. Their lack of combat bonuses in archery and one-handed weapons can be overcome by natural skill leveling and play. Argonians can be used fairly well as spellswords, but conjuration training may be necessary. They can also be useful mage-thieves due to their skills in both magic and stealth, though one may want some illusion training."
"They are known as the foremost experts in guerrilla warfare throughout the Starry Heart, a reputation brought upon them by defending their borders from enemies for countless centuries. Argonians have a lifespan similar to that of humans. According to the First Era Scholar Brendan the Persistent “the Argonian people have, throughout Tamrielic history, been perhaps the most misunderstood, vilified, and reviled of all the sentient races. Yet, those who have taken the time to experience Argonian culture have gained a greater appreciation for this noble and beautiful people". However, it should be noted that he himself went missing in his final expedition into the deeper swamps of their homeland."
"The Shadowscales are an order of Argonian assassins originating in Black Marsh. Argonians born under the sign of the Shadow are taken at birth and offered to the Dark Brotherhood where they are trained in the arts of stealth and assassination. Any Shadowscale who lives to come of age is accepted into the Dark Brotherhood as a full member of the family. They may also leave the Brotherhood and return to Black Marsh to serve the Argonian people. They act with impunity there, and some serve as personal assassins to the King of Black Marsh."
Argonians males can however make the finest nightblades and excel as scouts and witchhunters, with males being more adept at thievery. Females being more adept casters more suitably go out of the lines of stealth. Going all-out mage, sorcerer or pilgrim with females will work too, but necessitates a birthsign that increases magicka, and males can make decent thieves, rogues and assassins.
Argonians are best suited to the role of a close quarters Assassin. This is because Illusion, Alchemy, Mysticism, and Security are all valued skills for an Assassin. Many players enjoy roleplaying as a Shadowscale. An Argonian's natural availability of immunities and resist effect can be further augmented by selecting The Atronach birthsign. The single drawback to having this birthsign can easily be negated by having a single Welkynd Stone and at least two identical scrolls weighing 0.1 pounds in the inventory at all times. Whenever magicka gets too low, simply scroll duplicate the Welkynd Stone and use one of the two (or more) that will result.
Argonians possess tails, the only race besides the Khajiit to do so. When swimming they use their tails to propel themselves as they glide through the water like a fish (this does not however equate into an actual speed bonus in-game when swimming as an Argonian, the Speed attribute still determines that). An Argonian's tail is also used for balance giving them an extra advantage in certain situations. This is one of the many reasons Argonians are effective as thieves and assassins.
and the Pièce De Résistance directly from the ESO website!
"Well-versed in the use of magic, stealth, and subtle blades, the Argonians of Black Marsh are mysterious and hard to read. Experts at guerilla warfare, they often serve as scouts and skirmishers. Only they truly know the reason they’ve joined forces with the Dark Elves, their ex-slavers."
I mean if I was reading all of that and applying it to ESO I would think they would make THE primo magicka Nightblade and at least good mages (not the best tank OR HEALER or stamina playstyle)
I see the same damn things over and over and over but none of that really matters to Zenimax it would seem.
I solute you sir for all the effort of typing.
I don't know why Wrobel and his team decided to throw out the lore for argonians but everything here definitely suites an Argonian.
Power Wealth And Influence.1 -
Junkogen✭✭✭✭✭PlagueMonk wrote: »As many have point out.....MANY of the abilities that Argonians have in other ES games don't apply in ESO; Underwater breathing, dragging opponents into the water and drowned them, unarmed combat (teeth and formidable tail), spear use, etc......
WHILE many things could be adapted but aren't; Scaly hide, quick regeneration, stealthy fighter, quick an nimble, etc.
BUT then there's the complete misrepresentation; Higher health (even though they had low endurance/HPs), masters at healing (both themselves and now other apparently), potion masters, etc.
Zenimax / Worbel have been fairly faithful to most of the races but when it comes the Argonians they basically threw all that lore out the window and just did whatever in the hell they wanted. Very frustrating when people who have played previous ES games expect the ESO races to represent a certain play style but are greeted with........HEALERS! ><
Now here is your ES history lesson (taken directly from previous Elder Scroll game descriptions):
"Enigmatic and intelligent, the Argonians are experts of guerrilla tactics, and their natural abilities suit their swampy homeland. They have developed immunities to diseases that have plagued many would-be explorers in the region, and they are capable of easily exploring underwater locations due to their ability to breathe water. Argonians also have some resistance to poison."
"The Argonians' stealth and lockpicking make them brilliant assassins, thieves, scouts, and ambushers. Their lack of combat bonuses in archery and one-handed weapons can be overcome by natural skill leveling and play. Argonians can be used fairly well as spellswords, but conjuration training may be necessary. They can also be useful mage-thieves due to their skills in both magic and stealth, though one may want some illusion training."
"They are known as the foremost experts in guerrilla warfare throughout the Starry Heart, a reputation brought upon them by defending their borders from enemies for countless centuries. Argonians have a lifespan similar to that of humans. According to the First Era Scholar Brendan the Persistent “the Argonian people have, throughout Tamrielic history, been perhaps the most misunderstood, vilified, and reviled of all the sentient races. Yet, those who have taken the time to experience Argonian culture have gained a greater appreciation for this noble and beautiful people". However, it should be noted that he himself went missing in his final expedition into the deeper swamps of their homeland."
"The Shadowscales are an order of Argonian assassins originating in Black Marsh. Argonians born under the sign of the Shadow are taken at birth and offered to the Dark Brotherhood where they are trained in the arts of stealth and assassination. Any Shadowscale who lives to come of age is accepted into the Dark Brotherhood as a full member of the family. They may also leave the Brotherhood and return to Black Marsh to serve the Argonian people. They act with impunity there, and some serve as personal assassins to the King of Black Marsh."
Argonians males can however make the finest nightblades and excel as scouts and witchhunters, with males being more adept at thievery. Females being more adept casters more suitably go out of the lines of stealth. Going all-out mage, sorcerer or pilgrim with females will work too, but necessitates a birthsign that increases magicka, and males can make decent thieves, rogues and assassins.
Argonians are best suited to the role of a close quarters Assassin. This is because Illusion, Alchemy, Mysticism, and Security are all valued skills for an Assassin. Many players enjoy roleplaying as a Shadowscale. An Argonian's natural availability of immunities and resist effect can be further augmented by selecting The Atronach birthsign. The single drawback to having this birthsign can easily be negated by having a single Welkynd Stone and at least two identical scrolls weighing 0.1 pounds in the inventory at all times. Whenever magicka gets too low, simply scroll duplicate the Welkynd Stone and use one of the two (or more) that will result.
Argonians possess tails, the only race besides the Khajiit to do so. When swimming they use their tails to propel themselves as they glide through the water like a fish (this does not however equate into an actual speed bonus in-game when swimming as an Argonian, the Speed attribute still determines that). An Argonian's tail is also used for balance giving them an extra advantage in certain situations. This is one of the many reasons Argonians are effective as thieves and assassins.
and the Pièce De Résistance directly from the ESO website!
"Well-versed in the use of magic, stealth, and subtle blades, the Argonians of Black Marsh are mysterious and hard to read. Experts at guerilla warfare, they often serve as scouts and skirmishers. Only they truly know the reason they’ve joined forces with the Dark Elves, their ex-slavers."
I mean if I was reading all of that and applying it to ESO I would think they would make THE primo magicka Nightblade and at least good mages (not the best tank OR HEALER or stamina playstyle)
I see the same damn things over and over and over but none of that really matters to Zenimax it would seem.
That last bit from their own web site is a killer. One just has to shake their head. None of their passives lend themselves to that description. They are not well-versed in magic, stealth, or subtle blades. WTF? I just don't get it. Let's not forget how much they exploit the Shadowscales for advertising, quests, and now DLC. It's the most bizarre thing. No other race has such a huge disconnect between what is advertised and what actually is.2 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShadowStarKing wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »ShadowStarKing wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »I'm disappointed tbh.
This change was only made to cater to people who dont understand how those +exp passives work, and it would be much more lore-friendly to add more "shadowscale" flavour to the race.
What do we know about argonians? They can survive in Black March which is not exactly a friendly environment. They're known for their guerilla warfare. If you look at their passives in previous games, they had nightblade-ish set of bonuses.
And yes, they had +to intelligence and some magic schools, but it was never comparable to insane 150% magicka boost that altmers used to have (in Morrowind).
Yeah, I was hoping for more shadow scale friendly passives, since that's how their lore plus imoI thing argonians look cooler in leather than wearing rags or plate
Yeah, they surely needed a buff.
But the thing is, this buff makes them less versatile then they are supposed to be.
I've read a lot of ingame books and dialogues, but I've never seen any mentions that argonians are superior at healing others. Though I've read that during Oblivion crisis Hist took control on all Black March's argonians and they've counter attacked dremoras so furiously that they had to close Oblivion gates. Surely they didnt heal dremoras to death or something.
Also, Black March is always described as a very unfriendly land. So it would make sense for its inhabitants to be more endurant.
In Oblivion it depended on gender - whilst males were the typical rogue/shadowscale type, their females were just average in this but had an affinity to magic - so this magical thing is not taken out of thin air - but it was just applied to females before.
In Morrowind too, female and male chars had different stats.
Yes, but "magicka" races still had stronger affinity to magic. For example, altmers in morrowind had 150% extra magicka for example. And argonian magicka bonuses werent related to healing (except +5 bonus in Skyrim), and they were mixed with sneak etc.
Yes, but when you look at the starting attributes, argonian females had 50 intelligence and 40 willpower - whilst willpower is average, 50 intelligence is exceptional and governed magicka - whereas the males had 40 intelligence and 30 willpower, what made them pretty vulnerable to magic, but they had 50 speed and 50 agility, whereas the females had just average 40 in those.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races
I played argonian females in Oblivion born under the atronach birthsign - that made for quite cool mages with a large magicka pool, which is refilled in the later game pretty much constantly by magicka-based opponents. And unlike Altmer they do not have a disadvantage when it comes to magic used on them.
Yes, but the disadvantages are meant to balance OP things, like altmer fortify magicka passive or same effect from atronach mundus.
And in addition to that passive, altmers of both genders had 50 intelligence, so I wouldnt say that magicka pool is comparable.
Altmer were basically god-like after a while, when you had chosen atronach birthsign as well - all their disadvantages can easily be removed by enchantments and if they use daggers with absorption magic, they can be really nasty in melee as well. I did not play a lot of altmers therefore - around level 25 they were so powerful that it was no fun to play anymore.
I agree.
But it just proves that altmers are stronger mages in general than argonians. Argonians on the other hand, are much more sturdy and versatile, and will survive where almost any altmer would die a horrible death. So imo that healing focus pigeonholes them too much.
not really in Oblivion - Argonians had resistances against poison and diseases, which were awesome - but they had just 30 endurance, and endurance governed the health points and how many you gain with every level. In unmodded Oblivion you had to focus early on on endurance or you were weak in the later game - and Argonians had to care for this even more. Breath submerged was a huge advantage IMO, with all the many waterways in Cyrrodil (with mainly no slaughter fish in them in Oblivion) this was a great way to get around. I would have loved a feature like his in ESO for Argonians - being undetectable while swimming or something like that.
Yeah, but I mean, full resist to poisons and 75% resist to diseases is extremely helpful in Black March.
As for endurance points, I think it was possible to level up skills that boost it and get a few +5 bonuses on low level to balance things a bit...
And yeah, that would've been an interesting feature. I think some kind of sneak passives (like khajiit's or bosmer's) would've been nice too.
Yeah or the rather classic boni to pickpocketing and lockpicking - for Bosmer and Argonians - would have been nice. Overall it is sad, that Mr. Wrobel comes up with passives, which are not really reflecting the nature of the races, but are just seen from the perspective of having somewhat a balance - if you want balance, why have races at all?- balance and roleplay contradict each other IMO.
What would you propose for lore matching argonian changes in ESO?
Well, I would give Argonians for example a 35% reduction of stamina costs while sprinting and crouching - because in Oblivion Argonians and Redguard were the only races which had +10 Athletics as race bonus. And eventually a speed bonus - speed and agility were both major attributes for male Argonians in Oblivion and nothing reflects that in ESO at all.
Furthermore it would make sense to me, that a water-loving reptilian race is nearly undetectable in water - think of crocodiles for example, who ambush land animals from the water being nearly undetectable until they are near enough for the jump attack. So I would suggest a massive reduction of detection range while swimming in armor, and undetectable when naked.
Furthermore a lockpicking and pickpocketing bonus - Argonians had +10 security in Oblivion, this is immensely capable with picking locks and pockets.
Argonians had +5 in illusion magic in Oblivion, so I would give them a better stealth ability for a short amount of time - different to that of Bosmer and Khajiit as I would make it a delay before an NPC is capable to detect them - like 2-3 seconds, where an Argonian would not be detected after entering the detection range. This would be unique and unlike the stealth capability of other races. Basically an ability to blend in and deceive the mind of an observer for long enough to escape - just like Octopus do that with their camouflage abilities. They use illusion even it is not illusion magic, but we have this in nature in many ways - camouflage by blending into the scenery and become "invisible". So this would make sense to me for a race which is capable to deceive by illusion.
Nice ideas but if we apply Eso passives I think it would be more like this:
Dual weild affinity- increase exp gained with Dual wield skill line by 15%
Hist skin: adds 3000 poison and disease resistance.
Increases healing received by 5% and healing done by 5%.
Amphibious: increase swimming speed by 50% and adds 3% max magic and stam.
Laundering : increase max stam by 3% and increase the chance of force picking locks by 5%Power Wealth And Influence.0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ShadowStarKing wrote: »ShadowStarKing wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »ShadowStarKing wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »I'm disappointed tbh.
This change was only made to cater to people who dont understand how those +exp passives work, and it would be much more lore-friendly to add more "shadowscale" flavour to the race.
What do we know about argonians? They can survive in Black March which is not exactly a friendly environment. They're known for their guerilla warfare. If you look at their passives in previous games, they had nightblade-ish set of bonuses.
And yes, they had +to intelligence and some magic schools, but it was never comparable to insane 150% magicka boost that altmers used to have (in Morrowind).
Yeah, I was hoping for more shadow scale friendly passives, since that's how their lore plus imoI thing argonians look cooler in leather than wearing rags or plate
Yeah, they surely needed a buff.
But the thing is, this buff makes them less versatile then they are supposed to be.
I've read a lot of ingame books and dialogues, but I've never seen any mentions that argonians are superior at healing others. Though I've read that during Oblivion crisis Hist took control on all Black March's argonians and they've counter attacked dremoras so furiously that they had to close Oblivion gates. Surely they didnt heal dremoras to death or something.
Also, Black March is always described as a very unfriendly land. So it would make sense for its inhabitants to be more endurant.
In Oblivion it depended on gender - whilst males were the typical rogue/shadowscale type, their females were just average in this but had an affinity to magic - so this magical thing is not taken out of thin air - but it was just applied to females before.
In Morrowind too, female and male chars had different stats.
Yes, but "magicka" races still had stronger affinity to magic. For example, altmers in morrowind had 150% extra magicka for example. And argonian magicka bonuses werent related to healing (except +5 bonus in Skyrim), and they were mixed with sneak etc.
Yes, but when you look at the starting attributes, argonian females had 50 intelligence and 40 willpower - whilst willpower is average, 50 intelligence is exceptional and governed magicka - whereas the males had 40 intelligence and 30 willpower, what made them pretty vulnerable to magic, but they had 50 speed and 50 agility, whereas the females had just average 40 in those.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races
I played argonian females in Oblivion born under the atronach birthsign - that made for quite cool mages with a large magicka pool, which is refilled in the later game pretty much constantly by magicka-based opponents. And unlike Altmer they do not have a disadvantage when it comes to magic used on them.
Yes, but the disadvantages are meant to balance OP things, like altmer fortify magicka passive or same effect from atronach mundus.
And in addition to that passive, altmers of both genders had 50 intelligence, so I wouldnt say that magicka pool is comparable.
Altmer were basically god-like after a while, when you had chosen atronach birthsign as well - all their disadvantages can easily be removed by enchantments and if they use daggers with absorption magic, they can be really nasty in melee as well. I did not play a lot of altmers therefore - around level 25 they were so powerful that it was no fun to play anymore.
I agree.
But it just proves that altmers are stronger mages in general than argonians. Argonians on the other hand, are much more sturdy and versatile, and will survive where almost any altmer would die a horrible death. So imo that healing focus pigeonholes them too much.
not really in Oblivion - Argonians had resistances against poison and diseases, which were awesome - but they had just 30 endurance, and endurance governed the health points and how many you gain with every level. In unmodded Oblivion you had to focus early on on endurance or you were weak in the later game - and Argonians had to care for this even more. Breath submerged was a huge advantage IMO, with all the many waterways in Cyrrodil (with mainly no slaughter fish in them in Oblivion) this was a great way to get around. I would have loved a feature like his in ESO for Argonians - being undetectable while swimming or something like that.
Yeah, but I mean, full resist to poisons and 75% resist to diseases is extremely helpful in Black March.
As for endurance points, I think it was possible to level up skills that boost it and get a few +5 bonuses on low level to balance things a bit...
And yeah, that would've been an interesting feature. I think some kind of sneak passives (like khajiit's or bosmer's) would've been nice too.
Yeah or the rather classic boni to pickpocketing and lockpicking - for Bosmer and Argonians - would have been nice. Overall it is sad, that Mr. Wrobel comes up with passives, which are not really reflecting the nature of the races, but are just seen from the perspective of having somewhat a balance - if you want balance, why have races at all?- balance and roleplay contradict each other IMO.
What would you propose for lore matching argonian changes in ESO?
Well, I would give Argonians for example a 35% reduction of stamina costs while sprinting and crouching - because in Oblivion Argonians and Redguard were the only races which had +10 Athletics as race bonus. And eventually a speed bonus - speed and agility were both major attributes for male Argonians in Oblivion and nothing reflects that in ESO at all.
Furthermore it would make sense to me, that a water-loving reptilian race is nearly undetectable in water - think of crocodiles for example, who ambush land animals from the water being nearly undetectable until they are near enough for the jump attack. So I would suggest a massive reduction of detection range while swimming in armor, and undetectable when naked.
Furthermore a lockpicking and pickpocketing bonus - Argonians had +10 security in Oblivion, this is immensely capable with picking locks and pockets.
Argonians had +5 in illusion magic in Oblivion, so I would give them a better stealth ability for a short amount of time - different to that of Bosmer and Khajiit as I would make it a delay before an NPC is capable to detect them - like 2-3 seconds, where an Argonian would not be detected after entering the detection range. This would be unique and unlike the stealth capability of other races. Basically an ability to blend in and deceive the mind of an observer for long enough to escape - just like Octopus do that with their camouflage abilities. They use illusion even it is not illusion magic, but we have this in nature in many ways - camouflage by blending into the scenery and become "invisible". So this would make sense to me for a race which is capable to deceive by illusion.
Nice ideas but if we apply Eso passives I think it would be more like this:
Dual weild affinity- increase exp gained with Dual wield skill line by 15%
Hist skin: adds 3000 poison and disease resistance.
Increases healing received by 5% and healing done by 5%.
Amphibious: increase swimming speed by 50% and adds 3% max magic and stam.
Laundering : increase max stam by 3% and increase the chance of force picking locks by 5%
See, the laundering bonus is crap - why would a skilled Argonian want to force a lock, if he/she can just skillfully open it? To force a lock is for those who are not skilled enough to open it by other means.Edited by Lysette on July 12, 2016 5:32AM0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ShadowStarKing wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »You need to understand that in this game there needs to be a group of "niche races" that exist beyond the generic stam or magicka race identity. Yes, the shadowscale idea is great, but you can take advantage of the healing passives by using siphoning abilities to top off your health easier. NB "Saptanks", for example, benefit highly from this change - Funnel Health is more effective with the Argonian passive!
Using cloak and siphoning abilities is much more in line with what a NB is aiming for. Running around out of stealth with a giant 2H is NOT an assassin....
But the problem is every other race has a magic or stam identity.
Argonians are just there. With 3% max magic which is cool but doesn't match their lore in terms of racial passives.
FWIW i hate "identity" justifications. mainly because "identity" is little more than a buzz word for "a notion i cobble together to make a point."
Seems to me IF one believes that using cloak and siphon to get survival health and cloak for stealth and sneak which match the lore... then a small magica boost does help meet that "identity".
Also, the argument that argonians are different from the other races, that they are unique, is not on its surface an element in support of a change to make them more like the others by getting rid of that difference?
"every other race has x and so..." is not a supporting element for any argument except arguments for "races should be the same and so..."
Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bretons were downgraded several times - in Oblivion they had 50% magic resistance, in Skyrim just 25% left and in ESO this ability is gone. It made for incredibly powerful mages in Oblivion paired with the atronach birthsign in the later game. Well, it was already good from the very start like this - 50% of all magic against them is resisted and from the rest 50% is absorbed - that is a 75% shield against magic attacks basically. Bretons did not have to fear magic attacks against them, they could embrace them as atronachs - it refilled their magicka pool.
Bretons were not the only race that was downgraded. Orcs had no really interesting passives in Skyrim, but they did have 25% magic resistance in Morrowind. Nords were immune to frost damage and 50% resistance to shock in Morrowind. That obviously changed to 50% frost and 0% to shock by Skyrim. Argonians were immune to poison/disease, as were Bosmer. Redguards were likely highly resistance to poisons. Altmer were weak to all forms of magic, but likewise had a huge 1.5x bonus of magic added on top. The numbers have certainly changed, but the general theme hasn't. In the case of Argonians I do believe theme is being forgotten a bit with the numbers. I think more importantly is the fact that soft cap removal made racial percentage perform too well or too poorly depending on build. These numbers should always have been static, on everything. This would make the races more useful in a diverse number of ways. That's my suggestion and I have a feeling they will eventually go with it. It just makes sense.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »Bretons were downgraded several times - in Oblivion they had 50% magic resistance, in Skyrim just 25% left and in ESO this ability is gone. It made for incredibly powerful mages in Oblivion paired with the atronach birthsign in the later game. Well, it was already good from the very start like this - 50% of all magic against them is resisted and from the rest 50% is absorbed - that is a 75% shield against magic attacks basically. Bretons did not have to fear magic attacks against them, they could embrace them as atronachs - it refilled their magicka pool.
Bretons were not the only race that was downgraded. Orcs had no really interesting passives in Skyrim, but they did have 25% magic resistance in Morrowind. Nords were immune to frost damage and 50% resistance to shock in Morrowind. That obviously changed to 50% frost and 0% to shock by Skyrim. Argonians were immune to poison/disease, as were Bosmer. Redguards were likely highly resistance to poisons. Altmer were weak to all forms of magic, but likewise had a huge 1.5x bonus of magic added on top. The numbers have certainly changed, but the general theme hasn't. In the case of Argonians I do believe theme is being forgotten a bit with the numbers. I think more importantly is the fact that soft cap removal made racial percentage perform too well or too poorly depending on build. These numbers should always have been static, on everything. This would make the races more useful in a diverse number of ways. That's my suggestion and I have a feeling they will eventually go with it. It just makes sense.
Orcs had this 25% magic resistance as well still in Oblivion - and in Skyrim they suddenly lost it and gained enchantment abilities instead. The only 2 races with magic resistance by nature were Breton and Orcs in Oblivion, which makes this passive quite special - to just let go on this is in ESO a bit weird.0 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShadowStarKing wrote: »ShadowStarKing wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »ShadowStarKing wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »I'm disappointed tbh.
This change was only made to cater to people who dont understand how those +exp passives work, and it would be much more lore-friendly to add more "shadowscale" flavour to the race.
What do we know about argonians? They can survive in Black March which is not exactly a friendly environment. They're known for their guerilla warfare. If you look at their passives in previous games, they had nightblade-ish set of bonuses.
And yes, they had +to intelligence and some magic schools, but it was never comparable to insane 150% magicka boost that altmers used to have (in Morrowind).
Yeah, I was hoping for more shadow scale friendly passives, since that's how their lore plus imoI thing argonians look cooler in leather than wearing rags or plate
Yeah, they surely needed a buff.
But the thing is, this buff makes them less versatile then they are supposed to be.
I've read a lot of ingame books and dialogues, but I've never seen any mentions that argonians are superior at healing others. Though I've read that during Oblivion crisis Hist took control on all Black March's argonians and they've counter attacked dremoras so furiously that they had to close Oblivion gates. Surely they didnt heal dremoras to death or something.
Also, Black March is always described as a very unfriendly land. So it would make sense for its inhabitants to be more endurant.
In Oblivion it depended on gender - whilst males were the typical rogue/shadowscale type, their females were just average in this but had an affinity to magic - so this magical thing is not taken out of thin air - but it was just applied to females before.
In Morrowind too, female and male chars had different stats.
Yes, but "magicka" races still had stronger affinity to magic. For example, altmers in morrowind had 150% extra magicka for example. And argonian magicka bonuses werent related to healing (except +5 bonus in Skyrim), and they were mixed with sneak etc.
Yes, but when you look at the starting attributes, argonian females had 50 intelligence and 40 willpower - whilst willpower is average, 50 intelligence is exceptional and governed magicka - whereas the males had 40 intelligence and 30 willpower, what made them pretty vulnerable to magic, but they had 50 speed and 50 agility, whereas the females had just average 40 in those.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races
I played argonian females in Oblivion born under the atronach birthsign - that made for quite cool mages with a large magicka pool, which is refilled in the later game pretty much constantly by magicka-based opponents. And unlike Altmer they do not have a disadvantage when it comes to magic used on them.
Yes, but the disadvantages are meant to balance OP things, like altmer fortify magicka passive or same effect from atronach mundus.
And in addition to that passive, altmers of both genders had 50 intelligence, so I wouldnt say that magicka pool is comparable.
Altmer were basically god-like after a while, when you had chosen atronach birthsign as well - all their disadvantages can easily be removed by enchantments and if they use daggers with absorption magic, they can be really nasty in melee as well. I did not play a lot of altmers therefore - around level 25 they were so powerful that it was no fun to play anymore.
I agree.
But it just proves that altmers are stronger mages in general than argonians. Argonians on the other hand, are much more sturdy and versatile, and will survive where almost any altmer would die a horrible death. So imo that healing focus pigeonholes them too much.
not really in Oblivion - Argonians had resistances against poison and diseases, which were awesome - but they had just 30 endurance, and endurance governed the health points and how many you gain with every level. In unmodded Oblivion you had to focus early on on endurance or you were weak in the later game - and Argonians had to care for this even more. Breath submerged was a huge advantage IMO, with all the many waterways in Cyrrodil (with mainly no slaughter fish in them in Oblivion) this was a great way to get around. I would have loved a feature like his in ESO for Argonians - being undetectable while swimming or something like that.
Yeah, but I mean, full resist to poisons and 75% resist to diseases is extremely helpful in Black March.
As for endurance points, I think it was possible to level up skills that boost it and get a few +5 bonuses on low level to balance things a bit...
And yeah, that would've been an interesting feature. I think some kind of sneak passives (like khajiit's or bosmer's) would've been nice too.
Yeah or the rather classic boni to pickpocketing and lockpicking - for Bosmer and Argonians - would have been nice. Overall it is sad, that Mr. Wrobel comes up with passives, which are not really reflecting the nature of the races, but are just seen from the perspective of having somewhat a balance - if you want balance, why have races at all?- balance and roleplay contradict each other IMO.
What would you propose for lore matching argonian changes in ESO?
Well, I would give Argonians for example a 35% reduction of stamina costs while sprinting and crouching - because in Oblivion Argonians and Redguard were the only races which had +10 Athletics as race bonus. And eventually a speed bonus - speed and agility were both major attributes for male Argonians in Oblivion and nothing reflects that in ESO at all.
Furthermore it would make sense to me, that a water-loving reptilian race is nearly undetectable in water - think of crocodiles for example, who ambush land animals from the water being nearly undetectable until they are near enough for the jump attack. So I would suggest a massive reduction of detection range while swimming in armor, and undetectable when naked.
Furthermore a lockpicking and pickpocketing bonus - Argonians had +10 security in Oblivion, this is immensely capable with picking locks and pockets.
Argonians had +5 in illusion magic in Oblivion, so I would give them a better stealth ability for a short amount of time - different to that of Bosmer and Khajiit as I would make it a delay before an NPC is capable to detect them - like 2-3 seconds, where an Argonian would not be detected after entering the detection range. This would be unique and unlike the stealth capability of other races. Basically an ability to blend in and deceive the mind of an observer for long enough to escape - just like Octopus do that with their camouflage abilities. They use illusion even it is not illusion magic, but we have this in nature in many ways - camouflage by blending into the scenery and become "invisible". So this would make sense to me for a race which is capable to deceive by illusion.
Nice ideas but if we apply Eso passives I think it would be more like this:
Dual weild affinity- increase exp gained with Dual wield skill line by 15%
Hist skin: adds 3000 poison and disease resistance.
Increases healing received by 5% and healing done by 5%.
Amphibious: increase swimming speed by 50% and adds 3% max magic and stam.
Laundering : increase max stam by 3% and increase the chance of force picking locks by 5%
See, the laundering bonus is crap - why would a skilled Argonian want to force a lock, if he/she can just skillfully open it? To force a lock is for those who are not skilled enough to open it by other means.
True, proposed change:
Acrobatics: increase movement speed by 5%
I know it looks like a copy and paste of the orcs "swift warrior" passive but I think it suits the argonians more than the orcs.
In past ES games orcs were berserkers they had passives that increased their dmg when they get hit. So I think their passives in ESO should mirror that.Power Wealth And Influence.0