Lets Balance Radiant Destruction

Nifty2g · July 2016

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

*Sigh* So I see we went from "let's fix toxic behavior" back to "Nerf RD, it's too powerful".

There's really no having a discussion with you, is there OP? If I recall correctly, you even said you weren't calling for a nerf to the skill and you recognized it's shortcomings, which made it fair play.

But hey, keep farming those easy likes.

Where have I said nerf the damage? I haven't said that once. I said in it's current form how it is behaving, it is clearly over powered, and knowing ZOS, they don't know how to handle things and will give it a damage nerf if the community doesn't agree upon something soon.
Giving it a damage nerf I believe will make the class have less damage than it already does. I'm suggesting a cooldown to reduce the amount of beams on a target at once to give them some breathing room and some time to actually counter it. With doing this I think it is the best way to deal with it, I do like the idea of reduced range too, will stop people from sitting in the back doing nothing but beams.

A cool down will do nothing to stop multiple beams, which is your problem. It will stop beam spam from one person...barely. not to mention ZOS has clearly said they do not want cooldowns, and we can see this by the fact that 90% of in game abilities are instantly cast.

And a cool down will ruin PvE DPS, which you claim you don't want to do.

So no, I don't think you are tackling this situation in a way that fixes something you see as wrong.

Radiant channel time is 2.9 seconds, having a cooldown will largely reduce how much damage you are taking by it at one time, unless there are Templars in group specifically timing their beams at the same time. Think about it more logically.

You shouldn't really be spamming radiant in PvE in any scenario, you should be keeping your DoTs up and weaving in between, so it wont hurt PvE at all

I'm not reapplying sun fire, entropy, shards etc every 3 seconds, and FENGRUSH is right (oh gods I said it), Cooldowns are not ZOS's MO. And if multiple beamers are hitting you, easy solution. L.O.S.

You know, the way you normally deal with range when already fighting.

Lets not turn this into a PvE rotation, but no you don't reapply shards or entropy, you should be using potions. You reapply vampires bane and wall of elements, proc the spell damage enchantment on your swords. If you're not doing that then you're not doing it right.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS will never implement cooldowns on skills. Best you can hope for in that respect is penalty on recast, which does nothing here.

Take away initial insta tick - scale damage on backend as beam holds to equalize the total DPS (doesnt impact PVE). Lets do it wrobel.

I do like this idea too

I just think it's hilarious that people are coming in here defending how it works currently like nothing is bad about it, why not also offer solutions to balance it without not having to reduce the damage it does as a whole.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS will never implement cooldowns on skills. Best you can hope for in that respect is penalty on recast, which does nothing here.

Take away initial insta tick - scale damage on backend as beam holds to equalize the total DPS (doesnt impact PVE). Lets do it wrobel.

I also like this idea.

I think more people need to actually come up with solutions on balancing it out without having to nerf it's damage as a whole

I was more making a point that you have a 6 or 8 or even 12 second cooldown on dots, I don't do templar MDPS. And you made this a PvE discussion by asking for a change to a move. Unless whatever change you apply is only in the battle spirit buff, every change will impact PvE.

And I like Fengrush's idea as well, but if you get 3 beams latched onto you, you're still going to take 3 beams worth of damage all at once, and if you dipped into execute range when any of them was destined to tick, it is still game over.

That said, if you're interested in balancing the move, consider the wide scale applications of a change to any ability in all aspects of the game. I don't dislike you and I don't want you to feel this is personal, but I am defending a move I have literally zero issues with because I learned how to deal with it with my particular build.

I mainly do PvE, believe me, this doesn't impact PvE at all
But no, this is mainly about PvP counters to the skill etc, its largely over performing in there at the moment, and what not. I also like Feng's idea.

PeggymoeXD · July 2016

Just lower the range. Too many people spamming that crap from a football field away when I'm at 100%

Van_0S · July 2016

Once, ZOS decides to nerf RD to the ground! Then you guys will make QQ thread about Dark flare.
Surprisingly, Dark flare can be bashed from range?(like as if, its a channel ability) o.O'

Zheg · July 2016

PeggymoeXD wrote: »

Just lower the range. Too many people spamming that crap from a football field away when I'm at 100%

First, all you people thinking that the range is going to turn the tides for some reason ... it's beyond me. You complain about it when you're outnumbered, you think it's going to matter if the templar is 23m away from you instead of 28m? I feel like I'm talking to the same crowd that thought losing barrier and adding VD would make every ball group instantly fall-roll easy to kill. I argued with them (some of this very same crowd actually) for weeks over that until they gave up and realized it wasn't happening.

Second, if jesus beam is meant to be the counter to stam builds, when they can dodge roll and sprint away in seconds, how exactly does the templar (meant to counter them if we buy that theory) keep up? Gap closers are garbage (particularly toppling charge), and in many cases a stam build can sprint outside the range of a gap closer. Mist form is lulz for keeping up with a sprinter. Here's a thought to the armchair balancers, maybe the range is meant to ensure that stam builds have a hard time escaping from their counter. Almost all of the changes I've seen suggested do NOTHING to address the outnumbered situations people complain about but greatly impact the 1v1 and small scale encounters where the skill is highly counterable.

caeliusstarbreaker · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

PeggymoeXD wrote: »

Just lower the range. Too many people spamming that crap from a football field away when I'm at 100%

First, all you people thinking that the range is going to turn the tides for some reason ... it's beyond me. You complain about it when you're outnumbered, you think it's going to matter if the templar is 23m away from you instead of 28m? I feel like I'm talking to the same crowd that thought losing barrier and adding VD would make every ball group instantly fall-roll easy to kill. I argued with them (some of this very same crowd actually) for weeks over that until they gave up and realized it wasn't happening.

Second, if jesus beam is meant to be the counter to stam builds, when they can dodge roll and sprint away in seconds, how exactly does the templar (meant to counter them if we buy that theory) keep up? Gap closers are garbage, and in many cases a stam build can spring outside the range of a gap closer. Mist form is lulz for keeping up with a sprinter. Here's a thought to the armchair balancers, maybe the range is meant to ensure that stam builds have a hard time escaping from their counter. Almost all of the changes I've seen suggested do NOTHING to address the outnumbered situations people complain about but greatly impact the 1v1 and small scale encounters where the skill is highly counterable.

Where is it stated that this skill is meant to be the counter to stam builds?.... By that logic where is the counter to magicka builds?

The difference between 23 and 28 meters is not negligible, however the distance between the actual 23 and 40 are two totally different and paramount discussion.

In respect to different playstyles, Zheg, your particular play style leads Jesus beam to be "highly counterable" where as others it is not. Especially when it's from 40 meters, especially with gap closers being trash atm and especially with how easy it is when interrupted to CC break and recast.

Specifically regarding RD, in this and any meta, and regardless of the numerous other things that need to be fixed, RD should have it's range reduced a bit. It is the longest, undodgeable, highest damage scaling threshold dps/execute ability in the game. It's uniqueness is what leads to it being in need of a slight balancing. It would still every bit as deadly at 23-28 m max... It just shouldn't come with the 40m impunity it does now, large scale small scale or solo.

Zheg · July 2016

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

PeggymoeXD wrote: »

Just lower the range. Too many people spamming that crap from a football field away when I'm at 100%

First, all you people thinking that the range is going to turn the tides for some reason ... it's beyond me. You complain about it when you're outnumbered, you think it's going to matter if the templar is 23m away from you instead of 28m? I feel like I'm talking to the same crowd that thought losing barrier and adding VD would make every ball group instantly fall-roll easy to kill. I argued with them (some of this very same crowd actually) for weeks over that until they gave up and realized it wasn't happening.

Second, if jesus beam is meant to be the counter to stam builds, when they can dodge roll and sprint away in seconds, how exactly does the templar (meant to counter them if we buy that theory) keep up? Gap closers are garbage, and in many cases a stam build can spring outside the range of a gap closer. Mist form is lulz for keeping up with a sprinter. Here's a thought to the armchair balancers, maybe the range is meant to ensure that stam builds have a hard time escaping from their counter. Almost all of the changes I've seen suggested do NOTHING to address the outnumbered situations people complain about but greatly impact the 1v1 and small scale encounters where the skill is highly counterable.

Where is it stated that this skill is meant to be the counter to stam builds?.... By that logic where is the counter to magicka builds?

The difference between 23 and 28 meters is not negligible, however the distance between the actual 23 and 40 are two totally different and paramount discussion.

In respect to different playstyles, Zheg, your particular play style leads Jesus beam to be "highly counterable" where as others it is not. Especially when it's from 40 meters, especially with gap closers being trash atm and especially with how easy it is when interrupted to CC break and recast.

Specifically regarding RD, in this and any meta, and regardless of the numerous other things that need to be fixed, RD should have it's range reduced a bit. It is the longest, undodgeable, highest damage scaling threshold dps/execute ability in the game. It's uniqueness is what leads to it being in need of a slight balancing. It would still every bit as deadly at 23-28 m max... It just shouldn't come with the 40m impunity it does now, large scale small scale or solo.

It's the only skill that goes through dodge roll other than vamp drain. It's pretty obvious. If you don't see that, and you don't see the majority of stam builds complaining about the skill, it's going to be very hard to argue this point with you. The counter to magicka builds is physical damage and CC, their stam pool is far lower, their stam regen far lower, and their physical defense far lower.

Again, you're welcome to think the range drop makes a difference, but you're not actually providing solid reasons why when you're heavily outnumbered you'll be able to suddenly live because one of the templars is slightly closer to you. They're still going to jesus beam you, you'll still die. What the range drop does do is impede the 1v1 and small scale fights because you target and address the templar as the need arises, and in those situations the skill (including the range) is very much balanced. Heck, even the people asking for nerfs have mostly agreed that the skill is only over-performing in their eyes when they're heavily outnumbered.

Can you actually make a solid argument for why your survival chances noticeably go up when you're outnumbered and the templar is slightly closer to you? No one here has been able to do it yet. I'm sorry, but when I'm heavily outnumbered the last thing I focus on is random templars trying to jesus beam me in the hopes I can gap close to them. No, I focus on surviving, keeping up a burst rotation and focusing on whoever is lowest health so I can weed out the number advantage. It's a silly argument because I know everyone here plays the same way in those situations, it just seems no one is willing to admit it.

caeliusstarbreaker · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

PeggymoeXD wrote: »

Just lower the range. Too many people spamming that crap from a football field away when I'm at 100%

First, all you people thinking that the range is going to turn the tides for some reason ... it's beyond me. You complain about it when you're outnumbered, you think it's going to matter if the templar is 23m away from you instead of 28m? I feel like I'm talking to the same crowd that thought losing barrier and adding VD would make every ball group instantly fall-roll easy to kill. I argued with them (some of this very same crowd actually) for weeks over that until they gave up and realized it wasn't happening.

Second, if jesus beam is meant to be the counter to stam builds, when they can dodge roll and sprint away in seconds, how exactly does the templar (meant to counter them if we buy that theory) keep up? Gap closers are garbage, and in many cases a stam build can spring outside the range of a gap closer. Mist form is lulz for keeping up with a sprinter. Here's a thought to the armchair balancers, maybe the range is meant to ensure that stam builds have a hard time escaping from their counter. Almost all of the changes I've seen suggested do NOTHING to address the outnumbered situations people complain about but greatly impact the 1v1 and small scale encounters where the skill is highly counterable.

Where is it stated that this skill is meant to be the counter to stam builds?.... By that logic where is the counter to magicka builds?

The difference between 23 and 28 meters is not negligible, however the distance between the actual 23 and 40 are two totally different and paramount discussion.

In respect to different playstyles, Zheg, your particular play style leads Jesus beam to be "highly counterable" where as others it is not. Especially when it's from 40 meters, especially with gap closers being trash atm and especially with how easy it is when interrupted to CC break and recast.

Specifically regarding RD, in this and any meta, and regardless of the numerous other things that need to be fixed, RD should have it's range reduced a bit. It is the longest, undodgeable, highest damage scaling threshold dps/execute ability in the game. It's uniqueness is what leads to it being in need of a slight balancing. It would still every bit as deadly at 23-28 m max... It just shouldn't come with the 40m impunity it does now, large scale small scale or solo.

It's the only skill that goes through dodge roll other than vamp drain. It's pretty obvious. If you don't see that, and you don't see the majority of stam builds complaining about the skill, it's going to be very hard to argue this point with you. The counter to magicka builds is physical damage and CC, their stam pool is far lower, their stam regen far lower, and their physical defense far lower.

Again, you're welcome to think the range drop makes a difference, but you're not actually providing solid reasons why when you're heavily outnumbered you'll be able to suddenly live because one of the templars is slightly closer to you. They're still going to jesus beam you, you'll still die. What the range drop does do is impede the 1v1 and small scale fights because you target and address the templar as the need arises, and in those situations the skill (including the range) is very much balanced. Heck, even the people asking for nerfs have mostly agreed that the skill is only over-performing in their eyes when they're heavily outnumbered.

Can you actually make a solid argument for why your survival chances noticeably go up when you're outnumbered and the templar is slightly closer to you? No one here has been able to do it yet. I'm sorry, but when I'm heavily outnumbered the last thing I focus on is random templars trying to jesus beam me in the hopes I can gap close to them. No, I focus on surviving, keeping up a burst rotation and focusing on whoever is lowest health so I can weed out the number advantage. It's a silly argument because I know everyone here plays the same way in those situations, it just seems no one is willing to admit it.

You'll have a higher survivability rate... Magicka or stamina player.. Because it will cause a person to have to close at least some measure of distance to you, before they can hit you with an all but guaranteed execute damage attack, it will also allow you, magicka or stam user, to at least have a chance to manage any form of distance before an undodgeable channel is applied, relegating half of your health bar moot. I'm not talking about 1v1, I'm talking about pvp as it actually happens where there are a variable number of players at any given time. The skill will be every bit as potent within it's distance for sure, but seeing it would lack it's all but total impunity it has now for users, cause sure it has it's counters, but applied, they have varying degrees of practicality to pull off.

Yes there are ranged interrupts... But now if we expect every stam user to use bow for it, the shoddy targeting system aside, now every stam user is going to continue to exacerbate the Jesus beam spam... Since primarily, the dodge and mobility, is what "we" are countering by using Jesus beam. And in the same tune, if we are asking stam users to push all their builds to bow, we should in theory be asking all magicka users to bump their stam and stam regen, since dmg and CC, as stated, is the "counter" to magicka.

caeliusstarbreaker · July 2016

If we take Jesus beam, as is and look at in the real world of cyrodiil.... We have a 40m non ulti dps/execute skill that is not dodgeable, that has an almost immediate dmg tick, that starts ramping up in damage at 50% health.

There is no other skill in the game that functions in this manner. There is no other skill that you can cast with, if you're a smart player, complete impunity with a guaranteed hit on target, that is a non ulti. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with keeping all those mechanics except making those who wield that power to have to come a little bit closer so other classes can come say hello, or run to the hills.

Added: Templars desperately need a CC that goes through dodgeroll/block like every other class, that isn't a ground target aoe. But trying to keep this RD oriented.

KenaPKK · July 2016

"Only skill that goes through dodge roll other than vamp drain" lol

Are we playing the same game?

Zheg · July 2016

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

If we take Jesus beam, as is and look at in the real world of cyrodiil.... We have a 40m non ulti dps/execute skill that is not dodgeable, that has an almost immediate dmg tick, that starts ramping up in damage at 50% health.

There is no other skill in the game that functions in this manner. There is no other skill that you can cast with, if you're a smart player, complete impunity with a guaranteed hit on target, that is a non ulti. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with keeping all those mechanics except making those who wield that power to have to come a little bit closer so other classes can come say hello, or run to the hills.

Added: Templars desperately need a CC that goes through dodgeroll/block like every other class, that isn't a ground target aoe. But trying to keep this RD oriented.

Wrong. Invigorating drain is also an undodgeable channel that is guaranteed to hit. It also gives 15 ulti, heals a good amount, and does dmg.

To your previous post, when you repeat the same false line that RD makes half your health bar meaningless, its difficult to take you seriously. Furthermore, the fotm stam build is bow on back bar for heals and utility so you can dodge and get major expedition. The other kinds of stam builds go bow so they can spam bombard. Though templars can get by, almost every magicka build is forced to go resto staff back bar for heals, so why is it such a stretch to slot poison arrow on a weapon most stam already use to counter ONE skill. Sounds like a choice to me - go full melee and excel at that, or vary your build to have counters but be less efficient. Its almost like ... balance.

Im sorry, but in the middle of a field when you have 10+ people aggrod on you, the templars will be in range to jesus beam you. In fact very few templars will jesus beam at max range because they get snared and their opponent can very easily move out of range. It may seem like every templar is behind a giant zerg at max range spamming only at 100%, but now we're into fantasy.

I agree on the stun. Id circle back to my earlier point of templars lacking tools at range that make it a better choice than jesus beam. They dont have to mobility to keep up, dark flare is made useless by the long cast + flight time + lag, even moreso if theres a single dodgeroll in there, and reflects. People jesus beam for lack of better options at range.

Minno · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

PeggymoeXD wrote: »

Just lower the range. Too many people spamming that crap from a football field away when I'm at 100%

First, all you people thinking that the range is going to turn the tides for some reason ... it's beyond me. You complain about it when you're outnumbered, you think it's going to matter if the templar is 23m away from you instead of 28m? I feel like I'm talking to the same crowd that thought losing barrier and adding VD would make every ball group instantly fall-roll easy to kill. I argued with them (some of this very same crowd actually) for weeks over that until they gave up and realized it wasn't happening.

Second, if jesus beam is meant to be the counter to stam builds, when they can dodge roll and sprint away in seconds, how exactly does the templar (meant to counter them if we buy that theory) keep up? Gap closers are garbage (particularly toppling charge), and in many cases a stam build can sprint outside the range of a gap closer. Mist form is lulz for keeping up with a sprinter. Here's a thought to the armchair balancers, maybe the range is meant to ensure that stam builds have a hard time escaping from their counter. Almost all of the changes I've seen suggested do NOTHING to address the outnumbered situations people complain about but greatly impact the 1v1 and small scale encounters where the skill is highly counterable.

I've said it before, is an issue of fighting outnumbered not the skill itself. Until they can find a way to pull large numbers of players in different directions, the balance will always appear to be skewed.

Though I do think they should review the spell costs of counters versus spamable skills. If purge and block/bash are the preferred easy counters, then its shouldn't be hard nor easy to defend against RD.

Other then that, players will always zerg you down. Therefore it's on the map/developers to come up with a way to balance the game from a general pvp stance and not cherry pick spells for balance adjustment.

Lokey0024 · July 2016

The stupidity of saying this ability is fair and balanced right now is undeniable. The frequency of inital tick and 2nd being within a second of each other when scaling begins at 50% is ***.

Imagine if you used executioner and if their health dropped below 25% within a second a bleed tick hits for full dmg × 330% damage. You have to be in melee range so thats the trade off. Now it scales at 50% so the chance is good you will be below 25% after being hit with the initial execute.

Wont even get into the range.

Now what if they made interrupts independant of cc immunity, like a silence effect. You get bashed, crushing shocked you cant cast anything for 5 seconds. Would make more sense then telling zos to flail around blindly with the nerf bat, as per the norm.

https://youtu.be/LLpIMRowndg

Zheg · July 2016

Lokey0024 wrote: »

The stupidity of saying this ability is fair and balanced right now is undeniable. The frequency of inital tick and 2nd being within a second of each other when scaling begins at 50% is ***.

Imagine if you used executioner and if their health dropped below 25% within a second a bleed tick hits for full dmg × 330% damage. You have to be in melee range so thats the trade off. Now it scales at 50% so the chance is good you will be below 25% after being hit with the initial execute.

Wont even get into the range.

Now what if they made interrupts independant of cc immunity, like a silence effect. You get bashed, crushing shocked you cant cast anything for 5 seconds. Would make more sense then telling zos to flail around blindly with the nerf bat, as per the norm.

https://youtu.be/LLpIMRowndg

I feel the same way about people that struggle with the skill so much. Mind blown every time.

blabafat · July 2016

Cool down / cast time on a channeled ability ? O.o

Joy_Division · July 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

When other "toxic" and "unthoughtful" and"terrible game design" aspects such as fear, shuffle, bombard, cold harbor siege, insta-stealth, 100% damage avoidance, automatic/unpurgable snares, etc., are also addressed, then I'll be up for a conversation about RD.

Note that we've all agreed that Bombard is a high priority issue as well as RD, and that many of us don't like 100% damage avoidance passive dodge in a game with active dodge. That is an entirely different conversation, though. Also the only unpurgeable snares that I'm aware of are Winterborne and Bahraha's Curse procs. Are you arguing that they are more problematic than RD? We need more snare immunity options for magicka, but that argument isn't related to RD either. "Automatic" snares are....um I'm pretty sure any ability should be automatic is you push the button. Aaaand the rest of your list is constructive to the game aside from some bugs, like failed cc breaks, but that's unrelated too.

All gap closers put an unavoidable and unpurgable snare on you. I hate that much more than RD. I dont care about Winterborne or Bahaha's since they are far less common. Also, I think 100% dodge avoidance needs to be in the same conversation as RD since these two ESO mechanics are so intertwined.

Not true. Fighting against 5 dudes all hitting you in melee range is much easier than fighting a couple dudes in melee range with others sitting 30m away beaming you. And Nifty PvPs quite a bit more than you give him credit for. That said, he's an intelligent and accomplished templar player who knows the class well and understands game balance. He's plenty qualified to come in here and comment, and more qualified templar PvPers than he have chimed in support. Did you notice where blab chimed in with exactly the points I said he'd made in my last big "nerf RD" thread, the one where you called me a liar and had your little fit with Zheg?

Not for a magicka templar. I hit purify all those RDs go away. No class is as capable of dealing with RD than a magicka templar and there is no skill I'd rather my opponent use against me than RD when I am playing a templar. A magicka templar should not stuggle with RD.

I know Nifty is a good player and who knows the class. If the aim is an actual productive discussion, then less ego, more intellectual flexibility, and less less calling others toxic, and unthoughtful players would go a long way. I lost track of your nerf RD threads. I do remember you did lie in that one. Being truthful also helps with productive conversation.

Pointing out one overperforming skill is not looking to gut a class or neglect other overperforming skills. None of us want to make templar underpowered compared to other classes. Please keep the conversation on track and stop exaggerating.

That's deliciously ironic that you told me to stop exaggerating since exaggeration has been your MO when it comes to RD. You have no problem saying stuff like RD means "automatic death at 40% health" and people are "helpless" when faced with RD as an legitimate truths, but people who don't agree with you are biased templar forumtrolls who derail conversations and exaggerate. OK, enjoy your double standards.

caeliusstarbreaker · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

If we take Jesus beam, as is and look at in the real world of cyrodiil.... We have a 40m non ulti dps/execute skill that is not dodgeable, that has an almost immediate dmg tick, that starts ramping up in damage at 50% health.

There is no other skill in the game that functions in this manner. There is no other skill that you can cast with, if you're a smart player, complete impunity with a guaranteed hit on target, that is a non ulti. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with keeping all those mechanics except making those who wield that power to have to come a little bit closer so other classes can come say hello, or run to the hills.

Added: Templars desperately need a CC that goes through dodgeroll/block like every other class, that isn't a ground target aoe. But trying to keep this RD oriented.

Wrong. Invigorating drain is also an undodgeable channel that is guaranteed to hit. It also gives 15 ulti, heals a good amount, and does dmg.

To your previous post, when you repeat the same false line that RD makes half your health bar meaningless, its difficult to take you seriously. Furthermore, the fotm stam build is bow on back bar for heals and utility so you can dodge and get major expedition. The other kinds of stam builds go bow so they can spam bombard. Though templars can get by, almost every magicka build is forced to go resto staff back bar for heals, so why is it such a stretch to slot poison arrow on a weapon most stam already use to counter ONE skill. Sounds like a choice to me - go full melee and excel at that, or vary your build to have counters but be less efficient. Its almost like ... balance.

Im sorry, but in the middle of a field when you have 10+ people aggrod on you, the templars will be in range to jesus beam you. In fact very few templars will jesus beam at max range because they get snared and their opponent can very easily move out of range. It may seem like every templar is behind a giant zerg at max range spamming only at 100%, but now we're into fantasy.

I agree on the stun. Id circle back to my earlier point of templars lacking tools at range that make it a better choice than jesus beam. They dont have to mobility to keep up, dark flare is made useless by the long cast + flight time + lag, even moreso if theres a single dodgeroll in there, and reflects. People jesus beam for lack of better options at range.

No Zheg.. You're wrong. Invig drain doesn't hit all the categories I mentioned about RD. By your rationale I should be able to argue that Eclipse should hit as hard as surprise attack because they both have vowels in it. I tried to have a amicable and polite conversation with you about the skill....

I even offered you an explanation as to why I believe the change in range would increase survivability overall. Because you don't agree with the notion doesn't mean it's wrong.

But honestly, there was zero reason to continue on to inject your condescending statement of "difficult to take you seriously."

Nevermind the fact that mDK are surviving more, with better heals, running double sword and board. Never mind the fact that Templars can exist just fine without a resto, the only 2 classes that need to run a resto are sorc and nb, which isn't for heals but for the shield. Maybe in VE school they taught you that every magicka class that wants a heal has to run a resto, but that's not the case.

The vast majority of your arguments are convoluted, logically invalid and not even close to sound.

But... Yea keep your crusade going. All the best.

Van_0S · July 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

*Sigh* So I see we went from "let's fix toxic behavior" back to "Nerf RD, it's too powerful".

There's really no having a discussion with you, is there OP? If I recall correctly, you even said you weren't calling for a nerf to the skill and you recognized it's shortcomings, which made it fair play.

But hey, keep farming those easy likes.

Where have I said nerf the damage? I haven't said that once. I said in it's current form how it is behaving, it is clearly over powered, and knowing ZOS, they don't know how to handle things and will give it a damage nerf if the community doesn't agree upon something soon.
Giving it a damage nerf I believe will make the class have less damage than it already does. I'm suggesting a cooldown to reduce the amount of beams on a target at once to give them some breathing room and some time to actually counter it. With doing this I think it is the best way to deal with it, I do like the idea of reduced range too, will stop people from sitting in the back doing nothing but beams.

A cool down will do nothing to stop multiple beams, which is your problem. It will stop beam spam from one person...barely. not to mention ZOS has clearly said they do not want cooldowns, and we can see this by the fact that 90% of in game abilities are instantly cast.

And a cool down will ruin PvE DPS, which you claim you don't want to do.

So no, I don't think you are tackling this situation in a way that fixes something you see as wrong.

Radiant channel time is 2.9 seconds, having a cooldown will largely reduce how much damage you are taking by it at one time, unless there are Templars in group specifically timing their beams at the same time. Think about it more logically.

You shouldn't really be spamming radiant in PvE in any scenario, you should be keeping your DoTs up and weaving in between, so it wont hurt PvE at all

I'm not reapplying sun fire, entropy, shards etc every 3 seconds, and FENGRUSH is right (oh gods I said it), Cooldowns are not ZOS's MO. And if multiple beamers are hitting you, easy solution. L.O.S.

You know, the way you normally deal with range when already fighting.

Lets not turn this into a PvE rotation, but no you don't reapply shards or entropy, you should be using potions. You reapply vampires bane and wall of elements, proc the spell damage enchantment on your swords. If you're not doing that then you're not doing it right.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS will never implement cooldowns on skills. Best you can hope for in that respect is penalty on recast, which does nothing here.

Take away initial insta tick - scale damage on backend as beam holds to equalize the total DPS (doesnt impact PVE). Lets do it wrobel.

I do like this idea too

I just think it's hilarious that people are coming in here defending how it works currently like nothing is bad about it, why not also offer solutions to balance it without not having to reduce the damage it does as a whole.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS will never implement cooldowns on skills. Best you can hope for in that respect is penalty on recast, which does nothing here.

Take away initial insta tick - scale damage on backend as beam holds to equalize the total DPS (doesnt impact PVE). Lets do it wrobel.

I also like this idea.

I think more people need to actually come up with solutions on balancing it out without having to nerf it's damage as a whole

I was more making a point that you have a 6 or 8 or even 12 second cooldown on dots, I don't do templar MDPS. And you made this a PvE discussion by asking for a change to a move. Unless whatever change you apply is only in the battle spirit buff, every change will impact PvE.

And I like Fengrush's idea as well, but if you get 3 beams latched onto you, you're still going to take 3 beams worth of damage all at once, and if you dipped into execute range when any of them was destined to tick, it is still game over.

That said, if you're interested in balancing the move, consider the wide scale applications of a change to any ability in all aspects of the game. I don't dislike you and I don't want you to feel this is personal, but I am defending a move I have literally zero issues with because I learned how to deal with it with my particular build.

I mainly do PvE, believe me, this doesn't impact PvE at all
But no, this is mainly about PvP counters to the skill etc, its largely over performing in there at the moment, and what not. I also like Feng's idea.

Feng's as no idea of a magplar!
Don't agree with his post about templar because he doesn't have a character that's a magplar. If you want to agree with some one post then be certain that player as a magplar character in PvP.( that as earned the title captain, at least)

Edit:
No offence!
If your a PvE player then stay out of PvP, and dont make threads about nerfs to a class(in PvP) that you have no idea off.

KenaPKK · July 2016

Books books books.

@Joy_Division yay it wouldn't be a nerf RD thread without you and Zheg.

Nifty said he didn't have an issue playing against RD personally. His problem was with how he and other Templars can use the skill. Pay attention please.

He also came in here plenty civilly. It was actually Zheg who degraded the conversation to personal insults and drama, as usual.

Please point out where I lied, ever. Good luck with that one. Amusing how that is the default accusation sore losers fall back on. ^.^ You'll just go the way of the others.

And observe where blab came in here supporting a reduction in range, as I proposed in my series of threads ages ago.

We've almost all settled on that being all the skill needs. There are only two reasons to resist this conversation at this point -- either you want to beam people from forever away with impunity, or you just don't want Templar nerfs on principle regardless of individual skill balance. In the first case, you'd be a scrub. In the latter, you'd be biased and against balancing the game. Either way, you're a part of the problem.

I am still curious about removing the initial tick and having damage scale toward the end of the channel, but I don't like changing multiple things at once.

Anyway, take a better look around and check yourself before you speak up. You're embarrassing yourself clinging to this sinking ship.

Van_0S · July 2016

@KenaPKK
For the love of akatosh!
Please make a templar character and then post nerfs to this and that.....

KenaPKK · July 2016

Van_0S wrote: »

@KenaPKK
For the love of akatosh!
Please make a templar character and then post nerfs to this and that.....

Go research logical fallacy.

juhasman · July 2016

Van_0S wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

*Sigh* So I see we went from "let's fix toxic behavior" back to "Nerf RD, it's too powerful".

There's really no having a discussion with you, is there OP? If I recall correctly, you even said you weren't calling for a nerf to the skill and you recognized it's shortcomings, which made it fair play.

But hey, keep farming those easy likes.

Where have I said nerf the damage? I haven't said that once. I said in it's current form how it is behaving, it is clearly over powered, and knowing ZOS, they don't know how to handle things and will give it a damage nerf if the community doesn't agree upon something soon.
Giving it a damage nerf I believe will make the class have less damage than it already does. I'm suggesting a cooldown to reduce the amount of beams on a target at once to give them some breathing room and some time to actually counter it. With doing this I think it is the best way to deal with it, I do like the idea of reduced range too, will stop people from sitting in the back doing nothing but beams.

A cool down will do nothing to stop multiple beams, which is your problem. It will stop beam spam from one person...barely. not to mention ZOS has clearly said they do not want cooldowns, and we can see this by the fact that 90% of in game abilities are instantly cast.

And a cool down will ruin PvE DPS, which you claim you don't want to do.

So no, I don't think you are tackling this situation in a way that fixes something you see as wrong.

Radiant channel time is 2.9 seconds, having a cooldown will largely reduce how much damage you are taking by it at one time, unless there are Templars in group specifically timing their beams at the same time. Think about it more logically.

You shouldn't really be spamming radiant in PvE in any scenario, you should be keeping your DoTs up and weaving in between, so it wont hurt PvE at all

I'm not reapplying sun fire, entropy, shards etc every 3 seconds, and FENGRUSH is right (oh gods I said it), Cooldowns are not ZOS's MO. And if multiple beamers are hitting you, easy solution. L.O.S.

You know, the way you normally deal with range when already fighting.

Lets not turn this into a PvE rotation, but no you don't reapply shards or entropy, you should be using potions. You reapply vampires bane and wall of elements, proc the spell damage enchantment on your swords. If you're not doing that then you're not doing it right.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS will never implement cooldowns on skills. Best you can hope for in that respect is penalty on recast, which does nothing here.

Take away initial insta tick - scale damage on backend as beam holds to equalize the total DPS (doesnt impact PVE). Lets do it wrobel.

I do like this idea too

I just think it's hilarious that people are coming in here defending how it works currently like nothing is bad about it, why not also offer solutions to balance it without not having to reduce the damage it does as a whole.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS will never implement cooldowns on skills. Best you can hope for in that respect is penalty on recast, which does nothing here.

Take away initial insta tick - scale damage on backend as beam holds to equalize the total DPS (doesnt impact PVE). Lets do it wrobel.

I also like this idea.

I think more people need to actually come up with solutions on balancing it out without having to nerf it's damage as a whole

I was more making a point that you have a 6 or 8 or even 12 second cooldown on dots, I don't do templar MDPS. And you made this a PvE discussion by asking for a change to a move. Unless whatever change you apply is only in the battle spirit buff, every change will impact PvE.

And I like Fengrush's idea as well, but if you get 3 beams latched onto you, you're still going to take 3 beams worth of damage all at once, and if you dipped into execute range when any of them was destined to tick, it is still game over.

That said, if you're interested in balancing the move, consider the wide scale applications of a change to any ability in all aspects of the game. I don't dislike you and I don't want you to feel this is personal, but I am defending a move I have literally zero issues with because I learned how to deal with it with my particular build.

I mainly do PvE, believe me, this doesn't impact PvE at all
But no, this is mainly about PvP counters to the skill etc, its largely over performing in there at the moment, and what not. I also like Feng's idea.

Feng's as no idea of a magplar!
Don't agree with his post about templar because he doesn't have a character that's a magplar. If you want to agree with some one post then be certain that player as a magplar character in PvP.( that as earned the title captain, at least)

Edit:
No offence!
If your a PvE player then stay out of PvP, and dont make threads about nerfs to a class(in PvP) that you have no idea off.

Yeah also make sure he was emperor atleast 10 times , killed emeprors 1v1 atleast 50 times, he never played with group,he dont spam RD and BoL, he's dont know how even malubeth looks like , and there is no single person on PvP playing longer then 1 week he didnt defeated. Then You can think this person is worth of commenting.
WTF man even 100k+ hours of playing 1 build and having grand overlord is not the factor making You the only expert able to express Your opinion. All depends do You have braincells and eyes.

Zheg · July 2016

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

If we take Jesus beam, as is and look at in the real world of cyrodiil.... We have a 40m non ulti dps/execute skill that is not dodgeable, that has an almost immediate dmg tick, that starts ramping up in damage at 50% health.

There is no other skill in the game that functions in this manner. There is no other skill that you can cast with, if you're a smart player, complete impunity with a guaranteed hit on target, that is a non ulti. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with keeping all those mechanics except making those who wield that power to have to come a little bit closer so other classes can come say hello, or run to the hills.

Added: Templars desperately need a CC that goes through dodgeroll/block like every other class, that isn't a ground target aoe. But trying to keep this RD oriented.

Wrong. Invigorating drain is also an undodgeable channel that is guaranteed to hit. It also gives 15 ulti, heals a good amount, and does dmg.

To your previous post, when you repeat the same false line that RD makes half your health bar meaningless, its difficult to take you seriously. Furthermore, the fotm stam build is bow on back bar for heals and utility so you can dodge and get major expedition. The other kinds of stam builds go bow so they can spam bombard. Though templars can get by, almost every magicka build is forced to go resto staff back bar for heals, so why is it such a stretch to slot poison arrow on a weapon most stam already use to counter ONE skill. Sounds like a choice to me - go full melee and excel at that, or vary your build to have counters but be less efficient. Its almost like ... balance.

Im sorry, but in the middle of a field when you have 10+ people aggrod on you, the templars will be in range to jesus beam you. In fact very few templars will jesus beam at max range because they get snared and their opponent can very easily move out of range. It may seem like every templar is behind a giant zerg at max range spamming only at 100%, but now we're into fantasy.

I agree on the stun. Id circle back to my earlier point of templars lacking tools at range that make it a better choice than jesus beam. They dont have to mobility to keep up, dark flare is made useless by the long cast + flight time + lag, even moreso if theres a single dodgeroll in there, and reflects. People jesus beam for lack of better options at range.

No Zheg.. You're wrong. Invig drain doesn't hit all the categories I mentioned about RD. By your rationale I should be able to argue that Eclipse should hit as hard as surprise attack because they both have vowels in it. I tried to have a amicable and polite conversation with you about the skill....

I even offered you an explanation as to why I believe the change in range would increase survivability overall. Because you don't agree with the notion doesn't mean it's wrong.

But honestly, there was zero reason to continue on to inject your condescending statement of "difficult to take you seriously."

Nevermind the fact that mDK are surviving more, with better heals, running double sword and board. Never mind the fact that Templars can exist just fine without a resto, the only 2 classes that need to run a resto are sorc and nb, which isn't for heals but for the shield. Maybe in VE school they taught you that every magicka class that wants a heal has to run a resto, but that's not the case.

The vast majority of your arguments are convoluted, logically invalid and not even close to sound.

But... Yea keep your crusade going. All the best.

As you said: "There is no other skill that you can cast with, if you're a smart player, complete impunity with a guaranteed hit on target, that is a non ulti" and that was wrong, invigorating drain meets that criteria. If you meant your above description where you laid out every feature of RD, well, of course, no other skill is like that, and that should make sense since no two skills in the game are exactly the same so that point is moot.

Doesn't really matter who is saying it, anyone that says jesus beam makes half your health bar moot is not fit for any kind of reasonable discussion on the skill when they're in that mindset. It's utter exaggeration and yes, hard to take you seriously when you say things like that.

VE school? mmk.

@KenaPKK I'm pretty sure the past dozens of threads where you, jules, and the other usual suspects pretend like you should be taken seriously because you call the ones disagreeing with you 'forumplars' (seriously, how moronic) degrade the conversation to personal insults and drama, as usual. You don't like it when people point how you're wrong and back it up, I get it.

FFS why is blab's name dropped in every single RD thread. I could give a flying F about it. It's the opinion of a single experienced templar, that's it. The word of blab is not gospel, the word of blab has at times been wrong. If you need to cling to it as desperately as you've done in all of these threads, maybe it means you're not starting from a strong position in your arguments.

Burning_Talons · July 2016

Just reduce the range. No PvErs get hurt

Hempyre · July 2016

@KenaPKK

I should have clarified in my original post when I tagged you in it that only the initial part about templars being subjected to "in combat" mechanics was directed at you. the rest of my remarks were not, so If you took some offense to my words it was unintended. However I will address some of your point for point rebuttal.

I won't quote any of it as to avoid writing a novella. It's all there for any that care to read it.

1. Yes, all classes can heal. Templars are more prone to the "in combat" mechanic based on more class specific skills, specifically area buffs and heals. While you may run a support oriented NB, (or whatever class) and be subject to the mechanics with a similar frequency, I think the majority of players are not. Or have I missed the NB version of Restoring Aura and Cleansing Ritual and/or morphs? My personal experience with my other characters does not lend to your version.

2. Actually, prior to your response three people have directly suggested making the range of Beam to be 15-20 meters which given the current 2H stam meta puts it specifically inside the range of charge, which I add is a guaranteed crit that the templar version of charge does not have. However you yourself on the two separate occasions within this thread where you called for a "range nerf" did not in fact detail a specific distance, so in that aspect you are correct if unclear.

So no, I did not exaggerate. I do understand the concept of "Risk vs reward but thank you for explaining it further for those who were unclear on the subject. However, Your examples are a bit self serving. There is ample risk vs reward with beam as it stands in it being a channeled skill that returns very little reward by itself when utilized prematurely, It's easy enough to step out of range, or heal through, when used at a distance. As to your choice of examples, I do each and every one of those things to avoid being killed and I have sufficient hit points and damage mitigation to try and ensure sufficient survivability while utilizing said examples, as per my statement on build choices.

3. Bow projectiles are dodge-able when you know they are coming, this is true. However Heavy attack>Snipe>whatever from stealth while technically "dodge-able" is not practically so as it's usually from stealth.

In regard to this "41m" range fallacy, lets be sure to include all the facts, not just the self serving ones. Beam tooltips at 28m, while Snipe tooltips at 35m. I mentioned from stealth right? add the bonus from range passive damage of 6% to those attacks as well. Beam will continue to function if it was cast originally within the required range, just like bow skills, with the difference being Bow can have several skills "in transit" that still hit when I've moved out of range vs one solitary beam.
My point here is by comparison there are other skills that perform better with equal to increased range. to suggest they are in some way inferior to beam due to some "technical mechanic" is misleading.

4. Really? Name calling? I'm disappointed... Addressing the point anyway, I didn't call Radiant Destruction a spammable, I said it was like a spammable in its function prior to it's execute phase. in that as a channeled ability it ticks damage per second. while I know this isn't technically accurate as a spammable requires a key press per cast and beam does not, however the damage it does pre 50% is similar. Are you being purposefully obtuse to be demeaning, or did you really not understand my point? I think you understood.

As to being misleading, while execute at 50% is a high threshold, it does not ramp up into high execute damage until well closer to the 25%-20% margin, just like every other execute. to say different is the exaggeration.

5. Well what to say to this, to quote The Dude, "Well, that's like, your opinion man..." And your Malubeth example is only "optimal" in a relative setting dependent on the goals of the player, so this bit is just fluff. There is currently only the opinion of an imbalanced setting in regard to beam and it doesn't take much of a search to see that opinion for each and every character/skillset in the game.

6. I am unclear as to what is different in your statement vs what I said, if not so eloquently. It amounts to the same thing regardless. the majority of players that call for nerfs are not running an optimal build for the situation they choose to be in. Which negates the argument of balance. At no time can I run around naked and beam 30 people down without consequence. Even the OP's original issue is being hit with 4 or more beams simultaneously. Ever been hit with 4+ wrecking blows? no you haven't, because you wouldn't live long enough for 4+ people to get on you with them.

7. I lol'd too, at of all things an NB complaining about how OP/spamming anything else is with what's in your toolbox friend.

If I had a dollar for how many times all i see is WB, WB, WB or Surprise Attack, Surprise Attack, Surprise Attack running down my recap window, and from one player not 4.

I use beam, my kill log shows that. I beam every single player I see within range at less than half health. does that make it OP? does that make me a "beamtard"? or does that equate more to bad players not knowing when to pull out of the fight and heal? All I know is once I chose to play a build with better survivability -read more HP and better resistances and gear that works with my passives- I started to live a lot longer, which gets me out of jams that used to get me killed. Does it work with 4+ anything on me? nope... I don't run a troll build, but hey, that's your option too, and I won't call you names for it or try to get your resistances or anything else nerfed.

There are easy and sufficient means to deal with JB, there is sufficient risk vs reward in it's use. it is a strong skill , but no more than a dozen others I can name and honestly if you're being hit with 4-5 of anything and you don't get vaporized then maybe it's your toon that's a little OP, ya?

maxjapank · July 2016

So....we can see from this continuing discussion...that even though people are saying to just nerf the range, they really aren't satisfied with that. As I said before, what they really want is it to be dodgeable. They want to win in an outnumbered fight and they can't. Give an inch, take a mile.

Cinnamon_Spider · July 2016

You guys are making me agree with Kenapkk and I hate you for that

Nifty may primarily be a PVE player, but he's also a very good PVP player IMO. He's speaking from the experiences he's had recently in Cyrodiil and he knows Templar inside and out.

I've been making a point lately of using RD to beam people down from full health to dead and it is ridiculously easy and it can be done from a safe distance. Something needs to change.

DisgracefulMind · July 2016

maxjapank wrote: »

So....we can see from this continuing discussion...that even though people are saying to just nerf the range, they really aren't satisfied with that. As I said before, what they really want is it to be dodgeable. They want to win in an outnumbered fight and they can't. Give an inch, take a mile.

Yeah, dodgeable beam shouldn't happen. Channels shouldn't be dodgeable.

Idk why no one thinks shortening the range will help lol. It would take away the battle spirit range buff and put it in line with gap closer range. Don't see an issue with that, and I love to use beam xD 6m off of beam would make the world of difference. But meh, this thread has gone off the deep end :'(

maxjapank · July 2016

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

He's speaking from the experiences he's had recently in Cyrodiil and he knows Templar inside and out.

I have much more experience playing pvp as a Magicka Templar. So wouldn't mine, or Joy's, or Zheg's, or Bee's opinion count for more?

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

I've been making a point lately of using RD to beam people down from full health to dead and it is ridiculously easy and it can be done from a safe distance. Something needs to change.

You cannot beam a player down from full health with just one Radiant. You just can't unless the player is afk and/or wearing terrible gear. The only thing I would be willing to settle on is a slight reduction in range...and that's it. And honestly, most of my kills come from a closer range than everyone is making it out to be.

maxjapank · July 2016

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

So....we can see from this continuing discussion...that even though people are saying to just nerf the range, they really aren't satisfied with that. As I said before, what they really want is it to be dodgeable. They want to win in an outnumbered fight and they can't. Give an inch, take a mile.

Yeah, dodgeable beam shouldn't happen. Channels shouldn't be dodgeable.

Idk why no one thinks shortening the range will help lol. It would take away the battle spirit range buff and put it in line with gap closer range. Don't see an with that, and I love to use beam xD 6m off of beam would make the world of difference. But meh, this thread has gone off the deep end :'(

PeggymoeXD · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

PeggymoeXD wrote: »

Just lower the range. Too many people spamming that crap from a football field away when I'm at 100%

First, all you people thinking that the range is going to turn the tides for some reason ... it's beyond me. You complain about it when you're outnumbered, you think it's going to matter if the templar is 23m away from you instead of 28m? I feel like I'm talking to the same crowd that thought losing barrier and adding VD would make every ball group instantly fall-roll easy to kill. I argued with them (some of this very same crowd actually) for weeks over that until they gave up and realized it wasn't happening.

Second, if jesus beam is meant to be the counter to stam builds, when they can dodge roll and sprint away in seconds, how exactly does the templar (meant to counter them if we buy that theory) keep up? Gap closers are garbage (particularly toppling charge), and in many cases a stam build can sprint outside the range of a gap closer. Mist form is lulz for keeping up with a sprinter. Here's a thought to the armchair balancers, maybe the range is meant to ensure that stam builds have a hard time escaping from their counter. Almost all of the changes I've seen suggested do NOTHING to address the outnumbered situations people complain about but greatly impact the 1v1 and small scale encounters where the skill is highly counterable.

28 meters is crazy far for a channel that cannot be dodged, blocked, or broken. I'm not saying it shouldn't be those things, but it shouldn't be as difficult for little ole me (you know, being ONE person) to escape 3+ people spamming it on me. As someone who is hit with it extremely often, I'm certain that it will still be effective with a shorter distance, hell, I wouldn't even mind if RD hit harder. I just want the people using it to have to be in the fight. Not standing 28 meters up a hill.