The PvP Justice System Concept, now with opt-out

Neirymn · July 2016

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

It's not about the level of gear or the level of player. It's the simple fact that PvP being enabled by dialogue is extremely flimsy at best. People don't like it. ZoS already said they weren't putting the PvP side of the justice system in. Some of the ideas are good, but PvP enabled dialogue? Especially when the justice system itself is buggy and flimsy already? What's so hard to understand about that? It's a whole lotta nope. And before people call me a PvP Carebare, I frequently PvP. Which PvP is obviously broken too. If I wanted to PvP, I want choose if I want to or not. A dialogue option is not a choice in regards to accidents. Having it added in the idea to 'prevent' accidental theft is not helping in that choice either.

You can choose not to PvP by not getting caught while stealing or murdering.

I'm not a PvP guy, I can get very angry when being killed by other players so I'd rather avoid that. I don't like the PvP gameplay either, that's why I'm not going to Cyrodiil... for now at least. Never say never. But I feel like there is something missing in the justice system, it is too easy and a lot of players don't even try to be subtile about it, I'm a bit tired of seeing all the murders and all those thieves going unpunished. It's like Tamriel is such a dangerous place to live and no one is afraid of the consequences of their actions.

When I first trespassed in a house and heard the NPC's yelling at me and threatening me, I left because I thought a guard would come and arrest me but not at all... I re-entered the house and tried to steal some stuff without being seen, I was doing great until I saw another player just running around and stealing everything in plain sight. So what's the point? lol

In every Elder Scrolls games I played it was never that easy and when I hear about "immortal guards should be made killable", I'm laughing because if they do that there will be really no challenge left being an outlaw and that's not fun. Outlaws are supposed to act in the shadows, not in plain sight imo.

If adding PvP to the justice system can make players more careful when stealing and murdering, I'd be ok with it but it's not going to happen if ZOS keep their word. If the justice system stays the way it is, I don't really mind either, I'm still enjoying it, but I would love some improvement to it for sure.

FleetwoodSmack · July 2016

senhavran wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

It's not about the level of gear or the level of player. It's the simple fact that PvP being enabled by dialogue is extremely flimsy at best. People don't like it. ZoS already said they weren't putting the PvP side of the justice system in. Some of the ideas are good, but PvP enabled dialogue? Especially when the justice system itself is buggy and flimsy already? What's so hard to understand about that? It's a whole lotta nope. And before people call me a PvP Carebare, I frequently PvP. Which PvP is obviously broken too. If I wanted to PvP, I want choose if I want to or not. A dialogue option is not a choice in regards to accidents. Having it added in the idea to 'prevent' accidental theft is not helping in that choice either.

You can choose not to PvP by not getting caught while stealing or murdering.

Then that's taking out roughly two DLCs. That doesn't work.The same logic can be applied to your following statement by not going into towns;

I'm a bit tired of seeing all the murders and all those thieves going unpunished.

If there was either a PvP Flee option along with the original, I'd be fine with it. Or better yet, a toggle with a cooldown system in place like with swapping campaigns. However the OP probably isn't willing to explore those options because that level of choice doesn't probably fit with their ideas. It shouldn't be a forced system. He may disagree with me on that, and I respect his disagreement with it. However, it's not my cup of tea.

I do agree with you that there's a lot to be done with the justice system. However, as it stands that along with the current bugs need to be addressed first, fixed, and addressed again. NPCs are too easy to kill, even at low levels. There's no depth to the stealth based DLCs, the heists are rather boring and the sacraments tend to be the same, just with spamming the Blade of Woe. Thieves Troves are just 'there'. There's no incentives to really go out of your way to get them aside from maybe chalk fragments, lockpicks, or the potions that pop out (which you could make potions way better than what drops out of those). I'm no longer seeing some of the purple items that made someone WANT to go stealing.

You also have to take into consideration the vast amount of problems in PvP. A lot of mechanics are utterly broken. Just because it's not in Cyrodiil doesn't make them any less broken. In all honesty, a lot would have to change in order for it to be fitting for a PvP Justice System. Why do you think we're not getting arenas anytime this year aside from development? They plan on discussing them more -next- year. All of that should tell you something about the state of PvP, and possibly taking a good gander at the current outcries with the problems in Cyrodiil. Why would this system be any different from that standpoint?

Dubhliam · July 2016

@STEVIL
As I said, I don't tend to generalize, and segregate people into these and those (namely PvE and PvP), therefore I don't have a "target" audience in mind when designing an idea.
I understand there are extreme examples of player that would probably dislike the idea completely, but I find those to be in the minuscule numbers.

Next, I have thought about your proposal, but I have an issue with it:
Say an Outlaw gets a bounty, the Enforcers is notified, goes into pursuit and catches the Outlaw. The Outlaw is then presented with both the PvP and regular Flee option, of which he chooses the regular, PvE option.
What happens then?
There is no Guard in the vicinity to start chasing him, since it is the Enforcer that caught him, not the Guard.

I think this discontent with the inability to Flee without getting tagged is blown out of proportion.
You are given many other ways of countering your bounty, but choose to wrap your head around not being to safely choose one of them.
Like when people came on the PTS subforum to complain that poisons raising casting costs by 30% for infected players seems extreme only to have a dev come any say 30% is a mistake, and it would be changed to 60%.
Remember the outcry?
People were announcing the doomsday and threatening to leave the game in mass numbers if it got implemented.
Have a look at the PTS subforum now. People complain that poisons are too weak.

If you really think there should be an PvE Flee option, how would you implement it?

FleetwoodSmack · July 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

@STEVIL
As I said, I don't tend to generalize, and segregate people into these and those (namely PvE and PvP), therefore I don't have a "target" audience in mind when designing an idea.
I understand there are extreme examples of player that would probably dislike the idea completely, but I find those to be in the minuscule numbers.

Next, I have thought about your proposal, but I have an issue with it:
Say an Outlaw gets a bounty, the Enforcers is notified, goes into pursuit and catches the Outlaw. The Outlaw is then presented with both the PvP and regular Flee option, of which he chooses the regular, PvE option.
What happens then?
There is no Guard in the vicinity to start chasing him, since it is the Enforcer that caught him, not the Guard.

I think this discontent with the inability to Flee without getting tagged is blown out of proportion.
You are given many other ways of countering your bounty, but choose to wrap your head around not being to safely choose one of them.
Like when people came on the PTS subforum to complain that poisons raising casting costs by 30% for infected players seems extreme only to have a dev come any say 30% is a mistake, and it would be changed to 60%.
Remember the outcry?
People were announcing the doomsday and threatening to leave the game in mass numbers if it got implemented.
Have a look at the PTS subforum now. People complain that poisons are too weak.

If you really think there should be an PvE Flee option, how would you implement it?

As for an option? I'd say when you try to flee (and I think they should do this anyways cause it's seriously easy to get away from them), some kind of debuff. Whether it be a decrease to movement speed, or an increase of costs (for running and abilities) to prevent the player from running away too quickly. Heck, both could be used in that sense. After you hit flee, they just automatically cast it on the hostile target. It was seriously easy to abuse it with cloak, invisibility pots, and streak. Heck, it still IS. That and there needs to be something better than their current roots. If you're max level, it's nothing to break out of them. Seriously, antagonizing guards is my favorite pastime (30k bounties+ when I'm sleep deprived). Now them casting Scorching Flare's nice and all, but it's still easy to escape and cloak/stealth from them. Guards in general need an AI overhaul. I don't think we can get near the level that we did in mods with the single player games, but it could be pretty darn close if there's enough elements involved to that effect. Most of this is just examples, I could try and tinker on the single player games to get more ideas. But they seriously need an overhaul regardless of your original idea or not.

I don't think it's being blown out of proportion. I think it's just you're at the position that ZoS was at; trying to appease both sides to have the most enjoyable experience while remaining balanced for all parties that play the game. If it's too much on one side of the community and not the other, that's when people begin to raise concerns. And that's something that one has to acknowledge with something like this, else it falls apart, it becomes a heated debate and the idea just derails. I'm trying -not- to do that, so I appreciate that you're baring with me so far.

The other factor is balancing the current issues with skills and passives in PvP that are currently broken. That's the main thing that I'm seeing a problem with in terms of arenas. It's one thing for large scale PvP, but it's a completely different monster to maintain on small scale. For your idea battle leveling would help some though I don't think it'd fix all of the problems that go hand in hand with the mechanics, which would plague both sides. Which is possibly another indication as of why they just totally scrapped it. Since you're proposing these new passives/abilities, how do you plan on keeping that in balance with the rest of what's going on in the spectrum of PvP with fugitives? Especially with some of the sets we've got currently. Along with fugitive damage reduction (and I get that these aren't hard numbers, it's an idea), I probably wouldn't stay and fight an Enforcer. I'd just stun them and cloak off like I do with the current system. So to me, there needs to be a little more incentive to actually FIGHT an enforcer. Else it's the same system, just with players instead of AI. I mean no disrespect of course, it's just how I'm seeing it.

Regardless, I'm sure you also understand that even with ideas like this that's all fleshed out that they probably won't revisit the PvP Justice System due to the controversies surrounding it. Fun to theorize about and make concepts, but it's another to code, maintain, and police with everything else that's happening at the moment. Gives me some ideas to revisit when Skyrim SE comes out though.

STEVIL · July 2016

senhavran wrote: »

You can choose not to PvP by not getting caught while stealing or murdering.

I'm not a PvP guy, I can get very angry when being killed by other players so I'd rather avoid that. I don't like the PvP gameplay either, that's why I'm not going to Cyrodiil... for now at least. Never say never. But I feel like there is something missing in the justice system, it is too easy and a lot of players don't even try to be subtile about it, I'm a bit tired of seeing all the murders and all those thieves going unpunished. It's like Tamriel is such a dangerous place to live and no one is afraid of the consequences of their actions.

When I first trespassed in a house and heard the NPC's yelling at me and threatening me, I left because I thought a guard would come and arrest me but not at all... I re-entered the house and tried to steal some stuff without being seen, I was doing great until I saw another player just running around and stealing everything in plain sight. So what's the point? lol

In every Elder Scrolls games I played it was never that easy and when I hear about "immortal guards should be made killable", I'm laughing because if they do that there will be really no challenge left being an outlaw and that's not fun. Outlaws are supposed to act in the shadows, not in plain sight imo.

If adding PvP to the justice system can make players more careful when stealing and murdering, I'd be ok with it but it's not going to happen if ZOS keep their word. If the justice system stays the way it is, I don't really mind either, I'm still enjoying it, but I would love some improvement to it for sure.

First, i SHOULD be able to avoid PVP by sticking to PVE events. Swiping existing PVE events and moving them into PVP is not a good idea in general. There is no need to take away PVE options like this current proposal does.

As for how easy stealing and looting is, compared to what? IMX stealing is NOT more productive in terms of profit or XP over time than farming, grinding or even delving. All of those offer more bang for the buck NET after paying for repairs. So WHY should we single out this side for PVPintrusion when its not the most profitable of the activities, when it is not paying the higher rewards? From any risk/reward concept of balance makes ZERO sense.

if its because you want to apply some human 2016 morality to the activity - well how well recieved is the slaughter of lions, tigers and bears for their hides (grinding)? Should we also add in the conservationist PVP element to grinding? Oh and what about those quests where we have to sneak in and steal or kill? Did those quest bosses get due process?

Do Bosmer agree with the "kill on sight" for thieving?

So, OK its not morality either.

Not profit, not morality... then what makes thieving the part of the game that SHOULD be the invasion point for PVP into PVE?

Finally, on your house breaking example, nothing in this current proposal does ANYTHING to your housebreaking. Inside the house, no guards. This proposal is limited to only allowing any chance of PVP change to AFTER STOPPED BY GUARDS. So, if you can just do your business and wait in the house, log out and go play another char or even walk out and evade guards... you are unaffected by this proposal.

So, whatever the reasons are, it looks like your stated examples aren't necessarily addresed here for the most part.

STEVIL · July 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

@STEVIL
As I said, I don't tend to generalize, and segregate people into these and those (namely PvE and PvP), therefore I don't have a "target" audience in mind when designing an idea.
I understand there are extreme examples of player that would probably dislike the idea completely, but I find those to be in the minuscule numbers.

Next, I have thought about your proposal, but I have an issue with it:
Say an Outlaw gets a bounty, the Enforcers is notified, goes into pursuit and catches the Outlaw. The Outlaw is then presented with both the PvP and regular Flee option, of which he chooses the regular, PvE option.
What happens then?
There is no Guard in the vicinity to start chasing him, since it is the Enforcer that caught him, not the Guard.

I think this discontent with the inability to Flee without getting tagged is blown out of proportion.
You are given many other ways of countering your bounty, but choose to wrap your head around not being to safely choose one of them.
Like when people came on the PTS subforum to complain that poisons raising casting costs by 30% for infected players seems extreme only to have a dev come any say 30% is a mistake, and it would be changed to 60%.
Remember the outcry?
People were announcing the doomsday and threatening to leave the game in mass numbers if it got implemented.
Have a look at the PTS subforum now. People complain that poisons are too weak.

If you really think there should be an PvE Flee option, how would you implement it?

If you dont take into account how something affects players with different preferences then how in the world can you make assertions about the numbers who will like or not like or find it exciting or whatever?

And i did not talk extremes - i used whether or not they prefered PVP over PVE-only-Justice as an activity.

As for the bolded part... i have a serious "hold the horses" question here. it has been stated repeatedly in this thread that in order to avoid PVP Justice you just have to give up the FLEE option? Its also been stated that only NPCs can spot crimes, can trigger the justice entirely. This leads one to believe these are true.

But are you saying that this is WRONG?

Are you saying explicitly that even if i do not choose FLEE an enforcer can still come after me and engage me so that commiting a crime or certain crimes and getting spotted may be in and of itself opening me up for PVP?

If so then your PVP takeover is not limited to the theft of the FLEE option from PVE players but also now any potential criminal activity that makes you an outlaw without ever getting a FLEE option.

Now, of course, if i chose a FLEE PVP from a guard and then an enforcer came into play, No PVE FLEE option... because i already made the choice to go into PVE

Ok so let me be very clear about your latest attempt to dismiss objections as just not serious enough.

Currently, all players have a PVE FLEE OPTION. Currently the have a PVE ONLY Justice system and no way for it to cause them to be thrown unwillingly into PVP.

In spite of the numerous comments on the forum about "only if you FLEE" you apparently want to not only take away that option but to also add some other ways for parts of that system to force PVP on players for PVE events.

THAT is the ket thing. For a PVE player, they are just losing... losing FLEE WITHOUT PVP or losing whatever the other TAKEAWAY conditions you also seem to be trying to slip in (or have you been correcting all the people saying "just dont flee" and telling them to GO READ THE POST like you have others?)

As for how i would... it was as stated above in the posts.
Make the only change to PVE Justice be when faced with the guard dialog you get a FLEE PVE and FLEE PVP option alongside the others that already exist. So if you are one of those who find a PVP chase "exciting and dynamic" you got your itch scratched. But, if you dont find that addition to be more enjoyable than the PVE version, choose one of the other options and stay in PVE mode. possibly have a confirm as well for entering PVP mode to prevent click errors. It takes more than one click to exit PVE for PVP now so lets not make it this easy.
No other under the rug lets not contradict all the "dont choose flee" posters ways to get PVPed for PVE events.
None of the above should be read to indicate i am against expanding the "justice content" with even a DLC devoted to law and order with guilds, quests, skill lines etc. (Not necessarily endorsing yours but there is rich potential in this as i have been saying ever since TG came out.)

While you might not want to consider who gains and who loses when you design things, the above actually has nobody lose outside of those who mis-click twice and hit the wrong thing and then confirm it. those who want PVP in their chase can have it and everyone else can stay pat.

But, a serious question... is it fair to say that you consider taking away something from the existing PVE system a necessary element of an improvement? Are you opposed to having it be that regardless of your PVE actions, you can only get forced into PVP by a deliberate choice to engage in PVP but otherwise you always have the PVE options?

Of course, this all assumes we expect a flawless roll out and dont expect some bug at release which opens PVE players to unwanted PVP... with the obvious consequences. Wonder if we should consider that like any other exploit and subject to penalties by PVPers who "abuse" it while a fix is worked on? Three day ban maybe?

STEVIL · July 2016

Questions for those supporting the notion that PVE-Justice needs to be harder and penalties for PVE crimes should be tougher and PVP intrusion is the way to do this - Is it because:

1 The crime pays ratio of risk/reward profit vs expense overtime makes the thieving better overall than grinding lions tiger and bears or mudcrabs, question, farming crafting for advancing the character in terms of loot, skills, gold, gear and so it need to be brought in line with these others in terms of difficulty vs reward for time spent performing?

2 The excitement of the hunt and chase in PVE justice isn't as exciting as the excitement of grinding lions tiger and bears or mudcrabs, questing, delving farming and the other normal PVE means of advancement and gain so you want more people involved in stealing and murdering by making it more fun for those who prefer the other types of activities currently?

3 Stealing stuff from crates and barrels is morally wrong and should be punished more severely than slaughtering lions and tigers and bear for their skins even for Bosmer? Its wrong... unlike say killing werewolves and vampires on sight which is OK in most cases.

See, for me, if i took any one of the above to heart, if i saw them as things needing to be corrected by making it harder and consider adding PVP, (risk reward, excitment morality) in not one of them would i say "and the stealing justice part is the most egregious and needs fixing first" either in terms of "numbers doing it", "frequency of it being done" or "gains per time performing the activity."

helediron · July 2016

OP, would you consider this implemented only in Cyrodiil? Then outside Cyro justice system stays pvp-free. In fact you don't need pageslong rules there. You are the enforcer when you own the town or district. Change containers from lootable to stealable. Figure out rest.

Do not try to bring PvP into PvE justice system, when you can easily bring justice system into PvP.

In PvE I am routinely fleeing from guards, and i don't want any enforcer interrupting me, loot must not be tied to PvP, chests and targets will surely be camped, and so on. Dead horse and bad suggestion, as if i care.

Dubhliam · July 2016

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

@STEVIL
As I said, I don't tend to generalize, and segregate people into these and those (namely PvE and PvP), therefore I don't have a "target" audience in mind when designing an idea.
I understand there are extreme examples of player that would probably dislike the idea completely, but I find those to be in the minuscule numbers.

Next, I have thought about your proposal, but I have an issue with it:
Say an Outlaw gets a bounty, the Enforcers is notified, goes into pursuit and catches the Outlaw. The Outlaw is then presented with both the PvP and regular Flee option, of which he chooses the regular, PvE option.
What happens then?
There is no Guard in the vicinity to start chasing him, since it is the Enforcer that caught him, not the Guard.

I think this discontent with the inability to Flee without getting tagged is blown out of proportion.
You are given many other ways of countering your bounty, but choose to wrap your head around not being to safely choose one of them.
Like when people came on the PTS subforum to complain that poisons raising casting costs by 30% for infected players seems extreme only to have a dev come any say 30% is a mistake, and it would be changed to 60%.
Remember the outcry?
People were announcing the doomsday and threatening to leave the game in mass numbers if it got implemented.
Have a look at the PTS subforum now. People complain that poisons are too weak.

If you really think there should be an PvE Flee option, how would you implement it?

As for an option? I'd say when you try to flee (and I think they should do this anyways cause it's seriously easy to get away from them), some kind of debuff. Whether it be a decrease to movement speed, or an increase of costs (for running and abilities) to prevent the player from running away too quickly. Heck, both could be used in that sense. After you hit flee, they just automatically cast it on the hostile target. It was seriously easy to abuse it with cloak, invisibility pots, and streak. Heck, it still IS. That and there needs to be something better than their current roots. If you're max level, it's nothing to break out of them. Seriously, antagonizing guards is my favorite pastime (30k bounties+ when I'm sleep deprived). Now them casting Scorching Flare's nice and all, but it's still easy to escape and cloak/stealth from them. Guards in general need an AI overhaul. I don't think we can get near the level that we did in mods with the single player games, but it could be pretty darn close if there's enough elements involved to that effect. Most of this is just examples, I could try and tinker on the single player games to get more ideas. But they seriously need an overhaul regardless of your original idea or not.

I don't think it's being blown out of proportion. I think it's just you're at the position that ZoS was at; trying to appease both sides to have the most enjoyable experience while remaining balanced for all parties that play the game. If it's too much on one side of the community and not the other, that's when people begin to raise concerns. And that's something that one has to acknowledge with something like this, else it falls apart, it becomes a heated debate and the idea just derails. I'm trying -not- to do that, so I appreciate that you're baring with me so far.

The other factor is balancing the current issues with skills and passives in PvP that are currently broken. That's the main thing that I'm seeing a problem with in terms of arenas. It's one thing for large scale PvP, but it's a completely different monster to maintain on small scale. For your idea battle leveling would help some though I don't think it'd fix all of the problems that go hand in hand with the mechanics, which would plague both sides. Which is possibly another indication as of why they just totally scrapped it. Since you're proposing these new passives/abilities, how do you plan on keeping that in balance with the rest of what's going on in the spectrum of PvP with fugitives? Especially with some of the sets we've got currently. Along with fugitive damage reduction (and I get that these aren't hard numbers, it's an idea), I probably wouldn't stay and fight an Enforcer. I'd just stun them and cloak off like I do with the current system. So to me, there needs to be a little more incentive to actually FIGHT an enforcer. Else it's the same system, just with players instead of AI. I mean no disrespect of course, it's just how I'm seeing it.

Regardless, I'm sure you also understand that even with ideas like this that's all fleshed out that they probably won't revisit the PvP Justice System due to the controversies surrounding it. Fun to theorize about and make concepts, but it's another to code, maintain, and police with everything else that's happening at the moment. Gives me some ideas to revisit when Skyrim SE comes out though.

@IndyWendieGo , thanks for this extensive and constructive post, it is awesome.
The main reason I did not include more incentives for Outlaws fighting Enforcers (which is clearly seen by giving Enforcer certain passives that correspond to the Battle Spirit buff) is because it opens up some serious griefing possibilities.
Also, getting in combat against an Enforcer is not something Outlaws should strive to, it is a penalty for not being a succesful criminal, much as Outlaws today do not want to deliberately engage in fights against immortal guards.
Balance issues will always be present, and it is an ongoing process, but it fighting is actually not encouraged, then balance does not come to light as if it would when both Enforcers and Outlaws would stand on equal ground.
They are both given certain strengths instead - the strength to pursue and the strength to escape.

@STEVIL
Yes, I you are correct. I don't think the current Justice System could be improved with simple AI improvements. There is no AI that would breathe life into a system as much as living breathing players would.
I am talking about Enforcers having the ability to actively pursue and collect on an Outlaw's bounty.

As for incentives: since the updated system would now include more risk for criminal activities, there are also updated incentives - fencing for more gold, and obtaining legendary gear and jewelry from dailies or Prison.
This will, I believe, be far more rewarding than simply grinding lions or wolves, and it would be a highly profitable part of the game for successful criminals, even more that is currently is.
As far as Outlaws being safe in houses without guards - since the Outlaw would have to get out eventually to fence his items, he would want to get out, right? He may use the Fence Assistant, obtained from TG for less profit though. And since the most valuable Justice rewards are tied to dailies, the items inside houses do not provide the best incentive for criminals to profit on. IMO, they are free to loot anything in Houses, and be safe from any Guard or Enforcer.
The only thing I would maybe change about breaking into houses is that now all those areas are marked as Trespassing.
In fact, that is what i will add to my concept, based on your input:

All the locked houses are now marked as Trespassing areas.

BenLocoDete · July 2016

@IndyWendieGo quoting

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

BenLocoDete wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Previous quotes

BenLocoDete wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Previous Quotes

Divinius wrote: »

stevenbennett_ESO wrote: »

I'm one of those people who would absolutely hate to have the PvP Justice system implemented. I wouldn't quit ESO, but I'd be highly frustrated that a segment of the game I'm finding highly enjoyable right now thanks to the recent DLCs would be seriously nerfed by my need to avoid the PvP griefers who would be lurking around in towns to kill anyone who happens to trigger the PvP flag. I don't do PvP -- I'm absolutely terrible at it, and would stand no chance. (And I "Flee" all the time -- it's a matter of honor that I should never pay a bounty to a Guard...)

What you're suggesting ONLY has benefit to the PvP players -- it has NO benefit to PvE players AT ALL. It's just a meaningless hurdle for PvE players, and not a very fun one. ("If I flee from the guards, maybe I can get away," a potentially exciting chase scene, becomes a boring "If I flee from the guards, I'll just be ganked by a dozen annoying PvPers, so why do I even bother playing?")

If you *really* want to have PvP Justice, the only real way to do it is to have a completely separate and isolated instance of the servers for people who want to do PvP Justice. If you want to do PvP Justice, you'd have to be in that instance. Heck - you could then have PvP anywhere in Tamriel, and those of us who don't want to deal with the PvP stuff don't have to see it or know it's happening. SWTOR recently changed how they handle PvP to follow this scheme - every server there now has PvP and PvE instances, and you select which one you want. It's made PvE in that game a LOT more fun, because we no longer have to worry about the annoying PvPers bothering us anymore.

Which is, IMHO, the most likely reason PvP players are into this idea -- the idea of being able to gank PvE players must make them feel like a kid in a candy store. I wonder how many PvPers would still be as strongly supportive of a PvP Justice system if they knew NONE the PvE players wouldn't be involved... And I wonder how many of the people who support PvP Justice identify as PvE players -- I'm guessing it's a tiny percentage if any all all.

I wish I could give you both an Agree and an Awesome...

Used one of mine. They pretty much nailed it. Not to mention the fact that choosing flee for an accidental bounty, and then being flagged for PvP when you're no where near ready to PvP is just completely ridiculous. The reasons why I think it's ridiculous are blatantly obvious in this thread.

By the Aedra you instantly respawn what's the matter? And it would actually be funny like accidentally stealing a cuirass from the market, and suddenly 15 instant gap closers and ambushes obliterating your character from life. You won't accidentally steal ever again, will you?

Just kidding, but yes instant atomic wars in the market are somewhat expected, the good thing would be having some allies fighting alongside you, why everyone committing crimes feel like they will be ganked alone? Outlaws are the majority of players, I doubt anyone would enforce anything without having to suddenly pick a fight with a whole gang. Just imagine a market revolt where one enforcer approaches a young burglar, and then everybody around with some bounty on their head jumps in to resist the law, some guards join the fight and in the midst of hell broke loose an opportunist empties the caches silently.

All of this sounds incredibly funny to me.

Even if you had people fighting along side you, accidentally stealing and then getting PvP'ed out of nowhere when you're not even out of green gear is absolutely disastrous. Funny, but disastrous. I shouldn't have to have a group to buy things from a certain guild trader in Craglorn because they put bags and other miscellaneous clutter around that I accidentally steal because they're too close to the vendor. That's a whole lotta nope right there.

Why do you assume every opponent will be golden geared, running around the hundreds CPs and will make it impossible to run away? What if, One Tamriel battling level manage to put everyone in pretty much the same boat - once you're at lower levels you'll get attribute points to balance the lack of skills, gear and such, so whereas you're at the market, despite of your level you are somewhat in par with everyone around you.

No it is not 100% safe but why is that so many PvE'er put themselves so low in the PvP instance? How can you be just absolutely sure you'll never ever come to enjoy it? Don't you think like every PvPer was or is an assiduous PvE'er at some point?

Is it about losing?

Story mode
I was to Cyrodiil once this year. Just hit level 10 so I really carefully took a scout quest and sneaked from the Ebonheart base to some farm north of Chorrol. Had all quest markers disabled so it took me 1 hour and a half to finally get the information I needed and then before returning the quest I decided to scout a bit the surroundings. There were people riding horses now and then and I noticed also a nightblade coming out of an old fort, but hardly anybody...

... until I finally saw someone, an Aldmeri Dominion mage level 10 close to another farm... I observed that mage for a couple seconds and soon noticed she was checking the journal. I managed to quickly get close enough to hit with veiled strike but I MISSED IT! Still tried to flank and hit with something else, maybe veiled again but at this time the mage was back and started moving around and attacking back. I tried shadow cloak and ambush a couple times I sincerely thought I was going to finally kill someone in Cyrodiil, but another aldmeri agent appeared out of nowhere and started throwing heal spells. At this point I tried another couple attacks on them, but finally realized it was impossible. So I vanished as fast as I could and got to a nearby hill, in the shadows to look around and try another ambush.

A couple minutes later I noticed another group around a farm, maybe ten, all aldmeri dominion, one was a bit distracted and seem to check his journal often. I stayed in the shadows of some wooden structure waiting to see if someone was staying to guard the pole. But suddenly I was attacked and apparently they could see me because they came straight at me, 5~7 aldmeri with mages, one nightblade at least and maybe a vampire. I tried to flee but was already out of stamina... still, surrounded the hill but they got me finally. I haven't been to Cyrodiil after that but that's because I try to keep my characters to a roleplaying story, but in any case, losing was funny, I deserved that for being a cheap scout!

It's not about the level of gear or the level of player. It's the simple fact that PvP being enabled by dialogue is extremely flimsy at best. People don't like it. ZoS already said they weren't putting the PvP side of the justice system in. Some of the ideas are good, but PvP enabled dialogue? Especially when the justice system itself is buggy and flimsy already? What's so hard to understand about that? It's a whole lotta nope. And before people call me a PvP Carebare, I frequently PvP. Which PvP is obviously broken too. If I wanted to PvP, I want choose if I want to or not. A dialogue option is not a choice in regards to accidents. Having it added in the idea to 'prevent' accidental theft is not helping in that choice either.

You should address this one to @Dubhliam he is the one advocating the PvP through dialogue, I didn't like that idea myself.

@AmberLaTerra (quote)

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

450 forum users, in all games it has been repeatedly proven that online 1-5% of players actually ever even bother to use the forums, so 450 out of 1-5% of players in the game is your argument?

That 450 forum users likely represents less then 1% of the games population, yes having things run but less then 1% just works out well for everyone doesn't it?

You want proof that the forums polls are worthless for getting data on what the player base really wants? Look at runescape several years ago, poll after poll on the forums from the PVP groups wanting certian updates were 75-80% support of those updates. When the game finally did a log in poll on content played those PVPer represented 7% of the player base, so those big polls in favor of things were in reality only 5% of the players wanting it and 95% having no interest at all in it.

You will not get valid numbers without ZOS doing a login poll on this and I am willing to bet if they did a very low percentage would want PVP in PVE areas.

I agree with you about the forums polls and the log in polls but still a big part of feedback made in forums are getting into the game because it gives the issue visibility. I wouldn't go so far as to dismiss all those requests and complaints made in the forums based in my opinion, although, I couldn't care less to a hundred of them and they are often addressed in ESO lives and game patching.
You make a lot of generalizations that may be correct but are purely assumptions.

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

450 forum users, in all games it has been repeatedly proven that online 1-5% of players actually ever even bother to use the forums, so 450 out of 1-5% of players in the game is your argument?
(...)
You will not get valid numbers without ZOS doing a login poll on this and I am willing to bet if they did a very low percentage would want PVP in PVE areas.

Now you'll need data to back up your claims, but let's assume you're correct, beyond the scope of a forum representation, how about:

How many people are PvPer and approve this system
How many disapprove
How many are PvEer and approve or disapprove the justice system+
How many hours you must play PvE to be a PvEer and etc...
How many people lie or troll in polls...
how many people play the game mostly for TES theme and couldn't care less if it is good or bad as it fills a gap in the franchise anyway...
Or maybe let's talk about how many people that doesn't care about playing ESO right now due to its design policy might feel that the game is changing and are willing to give it a go or come back...
We can even assume that many players will join due to ZOS offering a more believable world and if ESO can really be a sandbox RPG, maybe one day we can think about it transcending to VR and how millions of people will be able to experience and enjoy it for the freedom they have, not only for being the vestige, but for being a merchant, a jarl or a guard, a daedra worshipper, the leader of a Mephala cult, or any other role they decide to play and the game offers them this opportunity.

(Yes I believe there are people that would log in to stay countless hours behind a market stand dealing with goods if they took the role of a merchant in game. In a good RP guild it would be a lot of fun actually.)

Now think about people interacting with each other in a complex sandbox VR TES game with a believable world where consequences matter, and your character will not only go to prison if they assault someone or murder, but will stay there locked because it is a believable world and not like "steal, murder, get killed, respawns immediately to mindless do it again".

But of course you can always come up with:
"You will not get valid numbers without ZOS doing a login poll on this (...)"
Well, neither will you!

Neirymn · July 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

senhavran wrote: »

You can choose not to PvP by not getting caught while stealing or murdering.

I'm not a PvP guy, I can get very angry when being killed by other players so I'd rather avoid that. I don't like the PvP gameplay either, that's why I'm not going to Cyrodiil... for now at least. Never say never. But I feel like there is something missing in the justice system, it is too easy and a lot of players don't even try to be subtile about it, I'm a bit tired of seeing all the murders and all those thieves going unpunished. It's like Tamriel is such a dangerous place to live and no one is afraid of the consequences of their actions.

When I first trespassed in a house and heard the NPC's yelling at me and threatening me, I left because I thought a guard would come and arrest me but not at all... I re-entered the house and tried to steal some stuff without being seen, I was doing great until I saw another player just running around and stealing everything in plain sight. So what's the point? lol

In every Elder Scrolls games I played it was never that easy and when I hear about "immortal guards should be made killable", I'm laughing because if they do that there will be really no challenge left being an outlaw and that's not fun. Outlaws are supposed to act in the shadows, not in plain sight imo.

If adding PvP to the justice system can make players more careful when stealing and murdering, I'd be ok with it but it's not going to happen if ZOS keep their word. If the justice system stays the way it is, I don't really mind either, I'm still enjoying it, but I would love some improvement to it for sure.

First, i SHOULD be able to avoid PVP by sticking to PVE events. Swiping existing PVE events and moving them into PVP is not a good idea in general. There is no need to take away PVE options like this current proposal does.

As for how easy stealing and looting is, compared to what? IMX stealing is NOT more productive in terms of profit or XP over time than farming, grinding or even delving. All of those offer more bang for the buck NET after paying for repairs. So WHY should we single out this side for PVPintrusion when its not the most profitable of the activities, when it is not paying the higher rewards? From any risk/reward concept of balance makes ZERO sense.

if its because you want to apply some human 2016 morality to the activity - well how well recieved is the slaughter of lions, tigers and bears for their hides (grinding)? Should we also add in the conservationist PVP element to grinding? Oh and what about those quests where we have to sneak in and steal or kill? Did those quest bosses get due process?

Do Bosmer agree with the "kill on sight" for thieving?

So, OK its not morality either.

Not profit, not morality... then what makes thieving the part of the game that SHOULD be the invasion point for PVP into PVE?

Finally, on your house breaking example, nothing in this current proposal does ANYTHING to your housebreaking. Inside the house, no guards. This proposal is limited to only allowing any chance of PVP change to AFTER STOPPED BY GUARDS. So, if you can just do your business and wait in the house, log out and go play another char or even walk out and evade guards... you are unaffected by this proposal.

So, whatever the reasons are, it looks like your stated examples aren't necessarily addresed here for the most part.

Wow, you guys are taking this very seriously. Please understand that it is not easy for me to explain myself as English is not my native language.

Note that my first sentence was kind of a joke, I'm not being serious, I was teasing that's why I added this:

. Also I understand your concern, @STEVIL but I was not talking about morality or something like that, it was just some thoughts that crossed my mind while I was playing and had nothing to do with what Dubhliam is proposing.

I wasn't trying to argue either, I just wanted to share my thoughts and personal experience. That's just my point of view and it is therefore subjective just like yours, you can disagree with me but there is no point in trying to negate what I said, it's an opinion, it's like saying this dude is wrong to find that girl beautiful because it doesn't suit your tastes.

I don't want to be forced into PvP either, as I said, I am NOT (using caps like you :P ) a PVP guy. ZOS clearly said they were not adding the previously discussed PvP component of the justice system, it'd be very bad for their credibility if they ever take it back imo.

That being said, I wouldn't mind if they did add PvP if it was implemented in the right way, but they clearly won't. So I was pointing out some aspects of the justice system that I'd like to be improved because I'd like it to be a little more challenging and immersive for me but wouldn't mind if it stays the way it is because I can't force other players to think like I do and play like I do. We have to deal with how other players are playing in a MMO even if we'd like it to be different.

@IndyWendieGo I've read your comment and apreciated how you responded to me. But I think that you guys are taking this more seriously than I do. Because PvP in the justice system won't happen, it's not a big deal to me, thus I didn't put in it a lot of thoughts. I just think it was harder in the previous Elder Scrolls games and I liked it, but then again this is not a single player game so I guess that makes the difference.

Have fun in Tamriel!

BenLocoDete · July 2016

@senhavran full quoting

senhavran wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

It's not about the level of gear or the level of player. It's the simple fact that PvP being enabled by dialogue is extremely flimsy at best. People don't like it. ZoS already said they weren't putting the PvP side of the justice system in. Some of the ideas are good, but PvP enabled dialogue? Especially when the justice system itself is buggy and flimsy already? What's so hard to understand about that? It's a whole lotta nope. And before people call me a PvP Carebare, I frequently PvP. Which PvP is obviously broken too. If I wanted to PvP, I want choose if I want to or not. A dialogue option is not a choice in regards to accidents. Having it added in the idea to 'prevent' accidental theft is not helping in that choice either.

You can choose not to PvP by not getting caught while stealing or murdering.

I'm not a PvP guy, I can get very angry when being killed by other players so I'd rather avoid that. I don't like the PvP gameplay either, that's why I'm not going to Cyrodiil... for now at least. Never say never. But I feel like there is something missing in the justice system, it is too easy and a lot of players don't even try to be subtile about it, I'm a bit tired of seeing all the murders and all those thieves going unpunished. It's like Tamriel is such a dangerous place to live and no one is afraid of the consequences of their actions.

When I first trespassed in a house and heard the NPC's yelling at me and threatening me, I left because I thought a guard would come and arrest me but not at all... I re-entered the house and tried to steal some stuff without being seen, I was doing great until I saw another player just running around and stealing everything in plain sight. So what's the point? lol

In every Elder Scrolls games I played it was never that easy and when I hear about "immortal guards should be made killable", I'm laughing because if they do that there will be really no challenge left being an outlaw and that's not fun. Outlaws are supposed to act in the shadows, not in plain sight imo.

If adding PvP to the justice system can make players more careful when stealing and murdering, I'd be ok with it but it's not going to happen if ZOS keep their word. If the justice system stays the way it is, I don't really mind either, I'm still enjoying it, but I would love some improvement to it for sure.

senhavran wrote: »

When I first trespassed in a house and heard the NPC's yelling at me and threatening me, I left because I thought a guard would come and arrest me but not at all... I re-entered the house and tried to steal some stuff without being seen, I was doing great until I saw another player just running around and stealing everything in plain sight. So what's the point? lol

Exactly, criminal activity is trivialized and thus do more harm than good right now, even for those trying to play a criminal role. This is probably the most annoying issue in the game and this being addressed would probably get me out of PvP justice system threads.

senhavran wrote: »

If adding PvP to the justice system can make players more careful when stealing and murdering, I'd be ok with it but it's not going to happen if ZOS keep their word

They've backtracked their plans more than once and they can do it again, maybe this is what scares the most people posting solely "stop beating this dead horse" in threads where constructive criticism is being offered.

By the way, not only Paul Sage, who took his time to present the justice system in the Quakecon left the company later in that same year, but Nick Klonke too left, and he was responsible for the spellcrafting, another advertised feature delayed without further information on why or until when.

So if not safe it is at least acceptable that the reasons behind the removal of both features lie beyond the "potential to cause more problems than good".

Neirymn · July 2016

BenLocoDete wrote: »

@senhavran full quoting

senhavran wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

It's not about the level of gear or the level of player. It's the simple fact that PvP being enabled by dialogue is extremely flimsy at best. People don't like it. ZoS already said they weren't putting the PvP side of the justice system in. Some of the ideas are good, but PvP enabled dialogue? Especially when the justice system itself is buggy and flimsy already? What's so hard to understand about that? It's a whole lotta nope. And before people call me a PvP Carebare, I frequently PvP. Which PvP is obviously broken too. If I wanted to PvP, I want choose if I want to or not. A dialogue option is not a choice in regards to accidents. Having it added in the idea to 'prevent' accidental theft is not helping in that choice either.

You can choose not to PvP by not getting caught while stealing or murdering.

I'm not a PvP guy, I can get very angry when being killed by other players so I'd rather avoid that. I don't like the PvP gameplay either, that's why I'm not going to Cyrodiil... for now at least. Never say never. But I feel like there is something missing in the justice system, it is too easy and a lot of players don't even try to be subtile about it, I'm a bit tired of seeing all the murders and all those thieves going unpunished. It's like Tamriel is such a dangerous place to live and no one is afraid of the consequences of their actions.

When I first trespassed in a house and heard the NPC's yelling at me and threatening me, I left because I thought a guard would come and arrest me but not at all... I re-entered the house and tried to steal some stuff without being seen, I was doing great until I saw another player just running around and stealing everything in plain sight. So what's the point? lol

In every Elder Scrolls games I played it was never that easy and when I hear about "immortal guards should be made killable", I'm laughing because if they do that there will be really no challenge left being an outlaw and that's not fun. Outlaws are supposed to act in the shadows, not in plain sight imo.

If adding PvP to the justice system can make players more careful when stealing and murdering, I'd be ok with it but it's not going to happen if ZOS keep their word. If the justice system stays the way it is, I don't really mind either, I'm still enjoying it, but I would love some improvement to it for sure.

senhavran wrote: »

When I first trespassed in a house and heard the NPC's yelling at me and threatening me, I left because I thought a guard would come and arrest me but not at all... I re-entered the house and tried to steal some stuff without being seen, I was doing great until I saw another player just running around and stealing everything in plain sight. So what's the point? lol

Exactly, criminal activity is trivialized and thus do more harm than good right now, even for those trying to play a criminal role. This is probably the most annoying issue in the game and this being addressed would probably get me out of PvP justice system threads.

senhavran wrote: »

If adding PvP to the justice system can make players more careful when stealing and murdering, I'd be ok with it but it's not going to happen if ZOS keep their word

They've backtracked their plans more than once and they can do it again, maybe this is what scares the most people posting solely "stop beating this dead horse" in threads where constructive criticism is being offered.

By the way, not only Paul Sage, who took his time to present the justice system in the Quakecon left the company later in that same year, but Nick Klonke too left, and he was responsible for the spellcrafting, another advertised feature delayed without further information on why or until when.

So if not safe it is at least acceptable that the reasons behind the removal of both features lie beyond the "potential to cause more problems than good".

Trivialized! That's the word. ^^

I think PvP could have been a way to make things a little more challenging so that people actually want to avoid getting a bounty. But as a PvE person, I don't really want some PvP in safe zones, it's a more "immersive" justice system that I want. For example, when I'm trepassing in a house and I get caught, I'd like that when the owner of that house threatens to call the guards, he actually does. I'd like that when trespassing, I get a bounty if I am seen. Something like that.

Not sure ZOS will make criminal activities harder because it might upset a lot of players who'd like it to stay the same or even easier. It might also drive new players away out of frustration.

BenLocoDete · July 2016

senhavran wrote: »

BenLocoDete wrote: »

@senhavran full quoting

senhavran wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

It's not about the level of gear or the level of player. It's the simple fact that PvP being enabled by dialogue is extremely flimsy at best. People don't like it. ZoS already said they weren't putting the PvP side of the justice system in. Some of the ideas are good, but PvP enabled dialogue? Especially when the justice system itself is buggy and flimsy already? What's so hard to understand about that? It's a whole lotta nope. And before people call me a PvP Carebare, I frequently PvP. Which PvP is obviously broken too. If I wanted to PvP, I want choose if I want to or not. A dialogue option is not a choice in regards to accidents. Having it added in the idea to 'prevent' accidental theft is not helping in that choice either.

You can choose not to PvP by not getting caught while stealing or murdering.

I'm not a PvP guy, I can get very angry when being killed by other players so I'd rather avoid that. I don't like the PvP gameplay either, that's why I'm not going to Cyrodiil... for now at least. Never say never. But I feel like there is something missing in the justice system, it is too easy and a lot of players don't even try to be subtile about it, I'm a bit tired of seeing all the murders and all those thieves going unpunished. It's like Tamriel is such a dangerous place to live and no one is afraid of the consequences of their actions.

When I first trespassed in a house and heard the NPC's yelling at me and threatening me, I left because I thought a guard would come and arrest me but not at all... I re-entered the house and tried to steal some stuff without being seen, I was doing great until I saw another player just running around and stealing everything in plain sight. So what's the point? lol

In every Elder Scrolls games I played it was never that easy and when I hear about "immortal guards should be made killable", I'm laughing because if they do that there will be really no challenge left being an outlaw and that's not fun. Outlaws are supposed to act in the shadows, not in plain sight imo.

If adding PvP to the justice system can make players more careful when stealing and murdering, I'd be ok with it but it's not going to happen if ZOS keep their word. If the justice system stays the way it is, I don't really mind either, I'm still enjoying it, but I would love some improvement to it for sure.

senhavran wrote: »

When I first trespassed in a house and heard the NPC's yelling at me and threatening me, I left because I thought a guard would come and arrest me but not at all... I re-entered the house and tried to steal some stuff without being seen, I was doing great until I saw another player just running around and stealing everything in plain sight. So what's the point? lol

Exactly, criminal activity is trivialized and thus do more harm than good right now, even for those trying to play a criminal role. This is probably the most annoying issue in the game and this being addressed would probably get me out of PvP justice system threads.

senhavran wrote: »

If adding PvP to the justice system can make players more careful when stealing and murdering, I'd be ok with it but it's not going to happen if ZOS keep their word

They've backtracked their plans more than once and they can do it again, maybe this is what scares the most people posting solely "stop beating this dead horse" in threads where constructive criticism is being offered.

By the way, not only Paul Sage, who took his time to present the justice system in the Quakecon left the company later in that same year, but Nick Klonke too left, and he was responsible for the spellcrafting, another advertised feature delayed without further information on why or until when.

So if not safe it is at least acceptable that the reasons behind the removal of both features lie beyond the "potential to cause more problems than good".

Trivialized! That's the word. ^^

I think PvP could have been a way to make things a little more challenging so that people actually want to avoid getting a bounty. But as a PvE person, I don't really want some PvP in safe zones, it's a more "immersive" justice system that I want. For example, when I'm trepassing in a house and I get caught, I'd like that when the owner of that house threatens to call the guards, he actually does. I'd like that when trespassing, I get a bounty if I am seen. Something like that.

Not sure ZOS will make criminal activities harder because it might upset a lot of players who'd like it to stay the same or even easier. It might also drive new players away out of frustration.

No worries they are perfectly fine with that... actually, they do it all the time!

Dubhliam · July 2016

senhavran wrote: »

BenLocoDete wrote: »

@senhavran full quoting

senhavran wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

It's not about the level of gear or the level of player. It's the simple fact that PvP being enabled by dialogue is extremely flimsy at best. People don't like it. ZoS already said they weren't putting the PvP side of the justice system in. Some of the ideas are good, but PvP enabled dialogue? Especially when the justice system itself is buggy and flimsy already? What's so hard to understand about that? It's a whole lotta nope. And before people call me a PvP Carebare, I frequently PvP. Which PvP is obviously broken too. If I wanted to PvP, I want choose if I want to or not. A dialogue option is not a choice in regards to accidents. Having it added in the idea to 'prevent' accidental theft is not helping in that choice either.

You can choose not to PvP by not getting caught while stealing or murdering.

I'm not a PvP guy, I can get very angry when being killed by other players so I'd rather avoid that. I don't like the PvP gameplay either, that's why I'm not going to Cyrodiil... for now at least. Never say never. But I feel like there is something missing in the justice system, it is too easy and a lot of players don't even try to be subtile about it, I'm a bit tired of seeing all the murders and all those thieves going unpunished. It's like Tamriel is such a dangerous place to live and no one is afraid of the consequences of their actions.

When I first trespassed in a house and heard the NPC's yelling at me and threatening me, I left because I thought a guard would come and arrest me but not at all... I re-entered the house and tried to steal some stuff without being seen, I was doing great until I saw another player just running around and stealing everything in plain sight. So what's the point? lol

In every Elder Scrolls games I played it was never that easy and when I hear about "immortal guards should be made killable", I'm laughing because if they do that there will be really no challenge left being an outlaw and that's not fun. Outlaws are supposed to act in the shadows, not in plain sight imo.

If adding PvP to the justice system can make players more careful when stealing and murdering, I'd be ok with it but it's not going to happen if ZOS keep their word. If the justice system stays the way it is, I don't really mind either, I'm still enjoying it, but I would love some improvement to it for sure.

senhavran wrote: »

When I first trespassed in a house and heard the NPC's yelling at me and threatening me, I left because I thought a guard would come and arrest me but not at all... I re-entered the house and tried to steal some stuff without being seen, I was doing great until I saw another player just running around and stealing everything in plain sight. So what's the point? lol

Exactly, criminal activity is trivialized and thus do more harm than good right now, even for those trying to play a criminal role. This is probably the most annoying issue in the game and this being addressed would probably get me out of PvP justice system threads.

senhavran wrote: »

If adding PvP to the justice system can make players more careful when stealing and murdering, I'd be ok with it but it's not going to happen if ZOS keep their word

They've backtracked their plans more than once and they can do it again, maybe this is what scares the most people posting solely "stop beating this dead horse" in threads where constructive criticism is being offered.

By the way, not only Paul Sage, who took his time to present the justice system in the Quakecon left the company later in that same year, but Nick Klonke too left, and he was responsible for the spellcrafting, another advertised feature delayed without further information on why or until when.

So if not safe it is at least acceptable that the reasons behind the removal of both features lie beyond the "potential to cause more problems than good".

Trivialized! That's the word. ^^

I think PvP could have been a way to make things a little more challenging so that people actually want to avoid getting a bounty. But as a PvE person, I don't really want some PvP in safe zones, it's a more "immersive" justice system that I want. For example, when I'm trepassing in a house and I get caught, I'd like that when the owner of that house threatens to call the guards, he actually does. I'd like that when trespassing, I get a bounty if I am seen. Something like that.

Not sure ZOS will make criminal activities harder because it might upset a lot of players who'd like it to stay the same or even easier. It might also drive new players away out of frustration.

This is one of the things @STEVIL addressed also, and it made me add this idea into the concept:

All the locked houses are now marked as Trespassing areas.

While this allows the Outlaws to be safe from persecution while inside houses, they will at least get a bounty if seen inside that house by an NPC.

As for all those comments about how they said that they were scrapping PvP Justice, here is a transcript of a question raised at PAX:

Q11: One of the things that I really wanted to see in ESO was the PvP Justice System and I was wondering if there was anything specific that you discovered during your balancing that makes it entirely impossible forever doing this or is it maybe there might be some way to figure out how to do it at some point?

RL: So, nothing's impossible. Right with the justice system the PvP portion of it specifically there are a lot of edge cases. We have a lot of really creative players who run around in Cyrodiil and when you see what they're doing and how there doing it and y'know we have to be very careful that we don't break what we've got already. PvE portion of the justice system is really popular and everyone loves it and changing that, well, I've heard a lot of suggestions like just let players opt-in well as soon as you do that the less scrupulous players start to play with that and find some loopholes and so we decided that rather than go down that road we'd focus our efforts elsewhere. But nothing's impossible.

While this post is not promising, it gave me much hope after the gloom and doom from their initial announcement that they were scrapping it completely.
Honestly, I wouldn't have made this concept if I hadn't seen this transcript.

FleetwoodSmack · July 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

@STEVIL
As I said, I don't tend to generalize, and segregate people into these and those (namely PvE and PvP), therefore I don't have a "target" audience in mind when designing an idea.
I understand there are extreme examples of player that would probably dislike the idea completely, but I find those to be in the minuscule numbers.

Next, I have thought about your proposal, but I have an issue with it:
Say an Outlaw gets a bounty, the Enforcers is notified, goes into pursuit and catches the Outlaw. The Outlaw is then presented with both the PvP and regular Flee option, of which he chooses the regular, PvE option.
What happens then?
There is no Guard in the vicinity to start chasing him, since it is the Enforcer that caught him, not the Guard.

I think this discontent with the inability to Flee without getting tagged is blown out of proportion.
You are given many other ways of countering your bounty, but choose to wrap your head around not being to safely choose one of them.
Like when people came on the PTS subforum to complain that poisons raising casting costs by 30% for infected players seems extreme only to have a dev come any say 30% is a mistake, and it would be changed to 60%.
Remember the outcry?
People were announcing the doomsday and threatening to leave the game in mass numbers if it got implemented.
Have a look at the PTS subforum now. People complain that poisons are too weak.

If you really think there should be an PvE Flee option, how would you implement it?

As for an option? I'd say when you try to flee (and I think they should do this anyways cause it's seriously easy to get away from them), some kind of debuff. Whether it be a decrease to movement speed, or an increase of costs (for running and abilities) to prevent the player from running away too quickly. Heck, both could be used in that sense. After you hit flee, they just automatically cast it on the hostile target. It was seriously easy to abuse it with cloak, invisibility pots, and streak. Heck, it still IS. That and there needs to be something better than their current roots. If you're max level, it's nothing to break out of them. Seriously, antagonizing guards is my favorite pastime (30k bounties+ when I'm sleep deprived). Now them casting Scorching Flare's nice and all, but it's still easy to escape and cloak/stealth from them. Guards in general need an AI overhaul. I don't think we can get near the level that we did in mods with the single player games, but it could be pretty darn close if there's enough elements involved to that effect. Most of this is just examples, I could try and tinker on the single player games to get more ideas. But they seriously need an overhaul regardless of your original idea or not.

I don't think it's being blown out of proportion. I think it's just you're at the position that ZoS was at; trying to appease both sides to have the most enjoyable experience while remaining balanced for all parties that play the game. If it's too much on one side of the community and not the other, that's when people begin to raise concerns. And that's something that one has to acknowledge with something like this, else it falls apart, it becomes a heated debate and the idea just derails. I'm trying -not- to do that, so I appreciate that you're baring with me so far.

The other factor is balancing the current issues with skills and passives in PvP that are currently broken. That's the main thing that I'm seeing a problem with in terms of arenas. It's one thing for large scale PvP, but it's a completely different monster to maintain on small scale. For your idea battle leveling would help some though I don't think it'd fix all of the problems that go hand in hand with the mechanics, which would plague both sides. Which is possibly another indication as of why they just totally scrapped it. Since you're proposing these new passives/abilities, how do you plan on keeping that in balance with the rest of what's going on in the spectrum of PvP with fugitives? Especially with some of the sets we've got currently. Along with fugitive damage reduction (and I get that these aren't hard numbers, it's an idea), I probably wouldn't stay and fight an Enforcer. I'd just stun them and cloak off like I do with the current system. So to me, there needs to be a little more incentive to actually FIGHT an enforcer. Else it's the same system, just with players instead of AI. I mean no disrespect of course, it's just how I'm seeing it.

Regardless, I'm sure you also understand that even with ideas like this that's all fleshed out that they probably won't revisit the PvP Justice System due to the controversies surrounding it. Fun to theorize about and make concepts, but it's another to code, maintain, and police with everything else that's happening at the moment. Gives me some ideas to revisit when Skyrim SE comes out though.

@IndyWendieGo , thanks for this extensive and constructive post, it is awesome.
The main reason I did not include more incentives for Outlaws fighting Enforcers (which is clearly seen by giving Enforcer certain passives that correspond to the Battle Spirit buff) is because it opens up some serious griefing possibilities.
Also, getting in combat against an Enforcer is not something Outlaws should strive to, it is a penalty for not being a succesful criminal, much as Outlaws today do not want to deliberately engage in fights against immortal guards.
Balance issues will always be present, and it is an ongoing process, but it fighting is actually not encouraged, then balance does not come to light as if it would when both Enforcers and Outlaws would stand on equal ground.
They are both given certain strengths instead - the strength to pursue and the strength to escape.

With PvP, though, you have to expect Outlaws wanting to fight Enforcers. While people like myself aren't all that apparent, there's a lot of us that purposely go out of our way to attack the immortal guards and creating mindless mayhem. That and since they removed the DPS NPC glitch (for testing) they make perfect candidates since they don't die (and it's hilarious when I get one shotted after antagonizing them enough, it seriously never gets old). What I'm saying is that you may want to try to create an incentive to fight them, else it's the same system with just players and an added prison (in other words, if I was to be forced into PvP, maybe adding things from the DLCs would be a start; hiding barrels and various other mechanics found over in there). Giving us options to stalk said Enforcers to keep them on edge. I dunno. I might be one of those rare players that if this system was in place, I'd strive to murder as many enforcers as I could. :P 30k bounties is nothin' to me!

Maybe a new type of set based on Enforcers killed (doesn't have to have advantages against enforcers) or surveys to Thieves Troves that yield greens and blues mostly with the rare purple? Those are other incentives. Maybe even some achievements based on the kills of PvP enforcers. Or a score system of Enforcers vs Fugitives? Which could be another answer for an opting in option. Though more systems like that could also clutter things up a bit. But those are possible ideas you could consider, I'm sure I'll have more. If this were to come to light, I think making it more cat and mouse like would make it something to contend with.

As for fighting in general, there's always a need for balance. Even when you're not intending for people to prolong fights or fight in general. I think the reason why there's so many nerf/buff threads is because the majority of them don't know what they're doing and things that DO actually need a nerf/buff go unheard for a long period of time because of that. I shudder at the thought of the reports in the PTS. Going through that has to be a nightmare. Regardless though, taking into consideration those flaws within PvP, the main goal should be appeasing all the parties involved. For instance battle leveling is wonky imo. There's NO way my level 25 should be doing the damage she's doing scaled to CP 160 and against a CP 160 player it's ridiculous. Add set stacking into that and it's kinda crazy. Both sides I feel could suffer from this. Then there's the vampirism passive for stealth speed. In combination with other passives, I feel like Enforcers would have a hard time trying to find them due to that speed/stealth radius. In that case I think the first guard encountered to use the PvP Flee option would have to be fixed in a method mentioned below, or something to at least indicate which direction said fugitive might have fled (like a tracking system).

Also another idea for the Non-PvP version of Flee, I think that along with the decrease to movement speed and increase costs to Magicka and Stamina are a must along with keeping the player from entering stealth for at least three seconds. Heck, that needs to be in there now. I might try to pick on guards again today to see if I can come up with anything else this time. I'm on DC, so there might be people that are willing to get into some trouble with me. But if enough people can get on board with me about trying to suggest more AI into the guards, we'll need a lot of player perspectives. I don't know how relevant that would be to this topic, though so I'll try to not talk about it so much unless you feel it's needed.

Regardless, though, even with them set to a killable status I might be able to provide input based on findings from that.

Though I SHOULD probably go through the Construction Set/CreationKit and see what AI I can come up with that'd work for ESO. I'm still rusty with Papyrus, but I'm sure I could whip up some examples. One thing that comes to mind with guards though, is that their patrol routes in ESO isn't all that covering. I don't know which alliance you're on, but specifically in Daggerfall and Stormhaven, there's loops that I can just spam the Blade of Woe on NPCs and never get caught, because the guards are far away enough. With the current AI, all I could think of doing for that issue is having another guard patrolling in the opposite route of them, but that's a band-aid fix. The guards are just not realistic enough. =/ I'll tinker though! I can't promise perfect results, however since both systems are vastly different. I can at least try to though.

Anyways! My ideas might have been already covered somewhere in the thread (some possibly slightly elaborated on within your current system), but fleshing out the ideas more might point me in the right direction on where to test things and pop back in and post.

waterfairy · July 2016

FleetwoodSmack · July 2016

senhavran wrote: »

@IndyWendieGo I've read your comment and apreciated how you responded to me. But I think that you guys are taking this more seriously than I do. Because PvP in the justice system won't happen, it's not a big deal to me, thus I didn't put in it a lot of thoughts. I just think it was harder in the previous Elder Scrolls games and I liked it, but then again this is not a single player game so I guess that makes the difference.

Have fun in Tamriel!

I have been!

And I had a feeling it was a joke, but I wanted to make it clear about where my mindset was. If there was an opting in function that couldn't be spam reversed at a whim, I think it'd be a good indication on how well the community can come together and build more on an idea. And yeah, I definitely agree that the single player games are completely different monsters. Can you believe I haven't even finished Skyrim? I spent all of my time modding it to a point where I was happy with the AI, however I still keep going back to that AI system to tweak it because I constantly find issues with it. NPCs in general with ESO just seem like they're just 'there'. The renown system is nearly non-existent. Especially when you compare it to something like Fable (been playing a lot of Anniversary and Fable III lately). While a completely different mindset in terms of games, based on your renown and alignment, they'll either cheer you on or run away screaming (and sometimes yell at the children to get away, which is always funny). The AI in those games were refreshing despite how old they are. It may be too much to expect something like that from an MMO, but it'd be a start in terms of how the Justice System FEELS. I'd love it if something like that was to be implemented. Skyrim had it slightly, but it was definitely lacking and I didn't have the voice actors to finish that part of the AI I was working on.

For me mainly, it's that there's a lot of opportunities when the players have a choice that I can see. Making people WANT to do the PvP side, but not feel so forced into it. Cyrodiil was a perfect example for how it currently works. And then addressing the other issues, like PvP glitches, bugs, and exploits (though I don't think that people will be jumping keep walls in the PvP Justice, but there are other exploits that definitely need to be closed even for arena/battleground PvP). Which the bugs, glitches, and exploits is one thing I'm also concerned about with PvP arenas. It's not just this concept. I'm hoping that since they're taking their time with arenas, that these things will be fixed in the meantime. Sounds reasonable, but we can't speculate for sure based on how long some of these exploits have been happening. That and I just try to be extremely thorough with what I see.

As for ESO not being a single player game, like I said, they may be two different monsters... However there's a lot we can learn from those single player games. So don't count your opinion on them vs MMOs out just yet!

There's a loooooooot of things that you can put into a multiplayer game. It just takes a lot of testing and then seeing if it's possible with the multiplayer game. Since I can't look under the hood of this hummer, all I can do is theorize based on what I make. For instance I'm very unhappy with how Crafting Bags were handled (being able to pull out materials and KEEP them pulled out after you log out along with better sorting of the bags in general), but the ones I made in Skyrim were pretty spiffy. That's for a different topic, though. You're definitely right. The AI in the guards NEED to be increased in such a way where it's more cat and mouse like. Regardless of PvP Justice or not. I think that's something that all of us in here can agree on. They may be unkillable, but it's easy to escape. Ridiculously easy.

I keep digressing though! I'll go in, make more tests with the guards and see what other ideas I can come up with. I keep lingering in the thread.

STEVIL · July 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

This is one of the things @STEVIL addressed also, and it made me add this idea into the concept:
All the locked houses are now marked as Trespassing areas.

While this allows the Outlaws to be safe from persecution while inside houses, they will at least get a bounty if seen inside that house by an NPC.

just to be clear, you have now taken away or at least altered (in the name of serving the PVP wanting PVE targets crowd) at least one quest i know of within the normal series of quests that are either part of the main quest line or peripheral to it. this quest requires entry into three houses with the picked lock doors.

So, yet more PVE stuff sacrificed to appease this hunt for targets by PVPers.

Guess getting the PVE justice system hijacked for PVP isn't enough. Now you want the PVE quests too?

Sigh...

BenLocoDete · July 2016

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Previous quotes

senhavran wrote: »

@IndyWendieGo I've read your comment and apreciated how you responded to me. But I think that you guys are taking this more seriously than I do. Because PvP in the justice system won't happen, it's not a big deal to me, thus I didn't put in it a lot of thoughts. I just think it was harder in the previous Elder Scrolls games and I liked it, but then again this is not a single player game so I guess that makes the difference.

Have fun in Tamriel!

I have been! And I had a feeling it was a joke, but I wanted to make it clear about where my mindset was. If there was an opting in function that couldn't be spam reversed at a whim, I think it'd be a good indication on how well the community can come together and build more on an idea. And yeah, I definitely agree that the single player games are completely different monsters. Can you believe I haven't even finished Skyrim? I spent all of my time modding it to a point where I was happy with the AI, however I still keep going back to that AI system to tweak it because I constantly find issues with it. NPCs in general with ESO just seem like they're just 'there'.
The renown system is nearly non-existent. Especially when you compare it to something like Fable (been playing a lot of Anniversary and Fable III lately). While a completely different mindset in terms of games, based on your renown and alignment, they'll either cheer you on or run away screaming (and sometimes yell at the children to get away, which is always funny). The AI in those games were refreshing despite how old they are. It may be too much to expect something like that from an MMO, but it'd be a start in terms of how the Justice System FEELS. I'd love it if something like that was to be implemented.
Skyrim had it slightly, but it was definitely lacking and I didn't have the voice actors to finish that part of the AI I was working on.

For me mainly, it's that there's a lot of opportunities when the players have a choice that I can see. Making people WANT to do the PvP side, but not feel so forced into it. Cyrodiil was a perfect example for how it currently works. And then addressing the other issues, like PvP glitches, bugs, and exploits (though I don't think that people will be jumping keep walls in the PvP Justice, but there are other exploits that definitely need to be closed even for arena/battleground PvP). Which the bugs, glitches, and exploits is one thing I'm also concerned about with PvP arenas. It's not just this concept. I'm hoping that since they're taking their time with arenas, that these things will be fixed in the meantime. Sounds reasonable, but we can't speculate for sure based on how long some of these exploits have been happening. That and I just try to be extremely thorough with what I see.

As for ESO not being a single player game, like I said, they may be two different monsters... However there's a lot we can learn from those single player games. So don't count your opinion on them vs MMOs out just yet! There's a loooooooot of things that you can put into a multiplayer game. It just takes a lot of testing and then seeing if it's possible with the multiplayer game. Since I can't look under the hood of this hummer, all I can do is theorize based on what I make. For instance I'm very unhappy with how Crafting Bags were handled (being able to pull out materials and KEEP them pulled out after you log out along with better sorting of the bags in general), but the ones I made in Skyrim were pretty spiffy. That's for a different topic, though. You're definitely right. The AI in the guards NEED to be increased in such a way where it's more cat and mouse like. Regardless of PvP Justice or not. I think that's something that all of us in here can agree on. They may be unkillable, but it's easy to escape. Ridiculously easy.

I keep digressing though! I'll go in, make more tests with the guards and see what other ideas I can come up with. I keep lingering in the thread.

Choices and consequences are a big part of RPGs and should be taken seriously. There are several changes coming to character customization and to make them meaningful(respawn your skill/attribute points, change your gender/race/class or alignment) there should be a quest or commitment the character must undertake to really deserve that change. Regarding the justice system, in order to change classes and redeem crimes, a reputation system could lay the groundwork for a burdensome pilgrimage in the seek of redemption or the fall of a respected character into the abyss of corruption and crime.

Having your developing team stuck in the love/nerf balance +content hamster wheel that is the doom of MMORPGs, leaves a huge gap in the storytelling and roleplaying aspect of the game. Mega overpowered weapons, er... ok there are people who feel excited about them, but having a story to tell...

... about a village blacksmith who forged a simple sword contracted by the town keep, and just before finishing the hilt, is visited by an umbral figure who offers something she cannot reject. At that day's night, the blacksmith came to regret the decision but it was too late, as a blight fell upon the village.
...the next morning was gloomy, as were several mornings following that, and, to this blacksmith surprise, the sword was finished yet she did not, in fact, could not have done it so magnificently as the hilt was presented. A week later the young blacksmith died of a very sudden illness and her weapons were given as payment for debts with the town principal. A great shadow was felt to leave the village following the convoy carrying the dead blacksmith weapons, including a distinct sword with an engraved obsidian hilt.

... fills those in-between needed for a cohesive campaign, offering alone, replayability and variation of gameplay.

People advocate against the PvP aspect of this system because in their assumptions ZOS would be spending time developing something that isn't meant to benefit them.

I doubt they would be so against a completely optional system if there was some guarantee that an extensive PvE content would be included to improve overall gameplay as well.

There is no interest on implementing a system that can be used to cause grief, but to address an issue with the lack of consequence to criminal activity and general disruptive behavior.

In both cases, to hurry up some urgent changes and make gameplay less annoying I'd be totally sold if ZOS:

increase the bounties and NPCs attributes,
randomize the appearance of the respawning NPC,
make respawn times longer or shrine-exclusive for criminals killed,
or even better, town keeps and jail exits(GTA-like) where the criminals would respawn, far away from city plazas and marketplaces.

FleetwoodSmack · July 2016

BenLocoDete wrote: »

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

Previous quotes

senhavran wrote: »

@IndyWendieGo I've read your comment and apreciated how you responded to me. But I think that you guys are taking this more seriously than I do. Because PvP in the justice system won't happen, it's not a big deal to me, thus I didn't put in it a lot of thoughts. I just think it was harder in the previous Elder Scrolls games and I liked it, but then again this is not a single player game so I guess that makes the difference.

Have fun in Tamriel!

I have been! And I had a feeling it was a joke, but I wanted to make it clear about where my mindset was. If there was an opting in function that couldn't be spam reversed at a whim, I think it'd be a good indication on how well the community can come together and build more on an idea. And yeah, I definitely agree that the single player games are completely different monsters. Can you believe I haven't even finished Skyrim? I spent all of my time modding it to a point where I was happy with the AI, however I still keep going back to that AI system to tweak it because I constantly find issues with it. NPCs in general with ESO just seem like they're just 'there'.
The renown system is nearly non-existent. Especially when you compare it to something like Fable (been playing a lot of Anniversary and Fable III lately). While a completely different mindset in terms of games, based on your renown and alignment, they'll either cheer you on or run away screaming (and sometimes yell at the children to get away, which is always funny). The AI in those games were refreshing despite how old they are. It may be too much to expect something like that from an MMO, but it'd be a start in terms of how the Justice System FEELS. I'd love it if something like that was to be implemented.
Skyrim had it slightly, but it was definitely lacking and I didn't have the voice actors to finish that part of the AI I was working on.

For me mainly, it's that there's a lot of opportunities when the players have a choice that I can see. Making people WANT to do the PvP side, but not feel so forced into it. Cyrodiil was a perfect example for how it currently works. And then addressing the other issues, like PvP glitches, bugs, and exploits (though I don't think that people will be jumping keep walls in the PvP Justice, but there are other exploits that definitely need to be closed even for arena/battleground PvP). Which the bugs, glitches, and exploits is one thing I'm also concerned about with PvP arenas. It's not just this concept. I'm hoping that since they're taking their time with arenas, that these things will be fixed in the meantime. Sounds reasonable, but we can't speculate for sure based on how long some of these exploits have been happening. That and I just try to be extremely thorough with what I see.

As for ESO not being a single player game, like I said, they may be two different monsters... However there's a lot we can learn from those single player games. So don't count your opinion on them vs MMOs out just yet! There's a loooooooot of things that you can put into a multiplayer game. It just takes a lot of testing and then seeing if it's possible with the multiplayer game. Since I can't look under the hood of this hummer, all I can do is theorize based on what I make. For instance I'm very unhappy with how Crafting Bags were handled (being able to pull out materials and KEEP them pulled out after you log out along with better sorting of the bags in general), but the ones I made in Skyrim were pretty spiffy. That's for a different topic, though. You're definitely right. The AI in the guards NEED to be increased in such a way where it's more cat and mouse like. Regardless of PvP Justice or not. I think that's something that all of us in here can agree on. They may be unkillable, but it's easy to escape. Ridiculously easy.

I keep digressing though! I'll go in, make more tests with the guards and see what other ideas I can come up with. I keep lingering in the thread.

Choices and consequences are a big part of RPGs and should be taken seriously. There are several changes coming to character customization and to make them meaningful(respawn your skill/attribute points, change your gender/race/class or alignment) there should be a quest or commitment the character must undertake to really deserve that change. Regarding the justice system, in order to change classes and redeem crimes, a reputation system could lay the groundwork for a burdensome pilgrimage in the seek of redemption or the fall of a respected character into the abyss of corruption and crime.

Having your developing team stuck in the love/nerf balance +content hamster wheel that is the doom of MMORPGs, leaves a huge gap in the storytelling and roleplaying aspect of the game. Mega overpowered weapons, er... ok there are people who feel excited about them, but having a story to tell...
... about a village blacksmith who forged a simple sword contracted by the town keep, and just before finishing the hilt, is visited by an umbral figure who offers something she cannot reject. At that day's night, the blacksmith came to regret the decision but it was too late, as a blight fell upon the village.
...the next morning was gloomy, as were several mornings following that, and, to this blacksmith surprise, the sword was finished yet she did not, in fact, could not have done it so magnificently as the hilt was presented. A week later the young blacksmith died of a very sudden illness and her weapons were given as payment for debts with the town principal. A great shadow was felt to leave the village following the convoy carrying the dead blacksmith weapons, including a distinct sword with an engraved obsidian hilt.
... fills those in-between needed for a cohesive campaign, offering alone, replayability and variation of gameplay.

People advocate against the PvP aspect of this system because in their assumptions ZOS would be spending time developing something that isn't meant to benefit them.

I doubt they would be so against a completely optional system if there was some guarantee that an extensive PvE content would be included to improve overall gameplay as well.

There is no interest on implementing a system that can be used to cause grief, but to address an issue with the lack of consequence to criminal activity and general disruptive behavior.

In both cases, to hurry up some urgent changes and make gameplay less annoying I'd be totally sold if ZOS:
increase the bounties and NPCs attributes,

randomize the appearance of the respawning NPC,

make respawn times longer or shrine-exclusive for criminals killed,

or even better, town keeps and jail exits(GTA-like) where the criminals would respawn, far away from city plazas and marketplaces.

Even then, though, we're still lacking a few things in regards to how guards react. I just did some heavy testing on a level 29 character. No streak, no cloak. I was able to dodge roll away fast enough from a guard before they forgot about me. So to help the option of non-PvP, these guards need to be beefed up in their AI for sure. I almost want to say for the bounty increase, have something like Tel Var modifiers. Based on how much criminal activity you do/get caught for, it goes up based on that modifier rather than at a fixed rate. It takes me a while to get to 30k. It makes me sad sometimes.

As for this part here;

People advocate against the PvP aspect of this system because in their assumptions ZOS would be spending time developing something that isn't meant to benefit them.

I doubt they would be so against a completely optional system if there was some guarantee that an extensive PvE content would be included to improve overall gameplay as well.

My main stance against the PvP Flee is that there's no option for the non-PvP choice. It's not based on the content that may or may not benefit me. If the guards were overhauled in such a way that if you chose this option that they were invulnerable AND have a beefed up AI, I think it could work. But that AI has to be spot on. Like I mentioned, I just recently got out of the game from getting a 7k-ish bounty and easily escaped through dodge rolls and blocking. Got up on the Daggerfall fountain and then they couldn't even touch me unless they chained me, which happened once after 12 or so times of purposely firing a bow at them or other NPCs to get their attention. I think for situations like that, they may have to add some kind of DoT up there. If I stealthed, they'd throw a Scorching Flare, but imo that's not enough. Caltrops MIGHT make things interesting, however after you're up there for a certain time, they still forget about you and continue on their pre-determined path. So with all that in mind, they still need to be more aggressive. Craglorn Wasps give me more of a headache than the guards do. So I can get where the OP's coming from with asking people on how they'd implement it. That's what I'm trying to do. Keyword, trying. AI's finicky. And on occasion funny, but mostly finicky and predictable.

As far as the respawn system goes, I think people outside of their party shouldn't be able to raise them. That's also another issue with it that I can slightly foresee (unless that was covered in the original idea, I don't know if respawns work that way or not within that setting), and if we respawned away from guards I could see that working pretty well (for those that have loading screen issues). For those in the party, possibly a small cooldown timer from when they're able to be raised through a soul gem could also be added. Cause even I have to take breaks from my sprees. Maybe spawn near a 'Bail Bondsman' to withdraw gold and pay off your bounty while you're there if you just want to go on your happy way, too.

And then for the choices tidbit. I definitely agree with you there. I reeeeeeally wasn't interested in racial changes, I can see why people would want them (especially with racial passives seemingly changing or breaking at random times), however I've always stuck with the original race I made my characters. Some I chose to have specific weaknesses so I can build around it and possibly turn them into strengths. In any RPG game, I've always done that. In what I mentioned about Fable's renown system, it was based on your alignment modifier along with your renown. I don't think it could be entirely burdensome, though it'd allow our choices in dialogue to also actually mean something. For instance if you let Valaste stay with Uncle Sheo with the pretty beautiful butterflies! It never comes up again. You just get skill points based on your decision and she's swept under the rug like you've done nothing wrong. That's why I say, it's probably a lot to ask for in an MMO. I've tried making a renown system in custom servers for old games that allowed you to create player worlds and have people play along with you and it's not all that easy. Ended up having NPC wars instead of what I actually intended. Granted, that was a looooong time ago, (2003-2004ish) so it may be simpler to do nowdays, but I don't know if people would do that or not. They barely even recognize that a player has vampirism. It's kind of bland in that regard.

I'll see what else I can trudge up in terms of ideas based on things I can take a look at/abuse to gather more ideas from. It might make some leeway somewhere.

Dubhliam · July 2016

@IndyWendieGo wow, thanks for the extensive posts.
I can't wait to see what your testing will come up with.
EDIT: The bounty modifier is a great idea, I've added this into the concept:

Heat levels now apply a bounty modifier similar to Tel Var modifier

I'll probably be revamping the whole concept soon to rework it making the original heat levels PvP free, while adding a fourth heat for PvP.

STEVIL wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

This is one of the things @STEVIL addressed also, and it made me add this idea into the concept:
All the locked houses are now marked as Trespassing areas.

While this allows the Outlaws to be safe from persecution while inside houses, they will at least get a bounty if seen inside that house by an NPC.

just to be clear, you have now taken away or at least altered (in the name of serving the PVP wanting PVE targets crowd) at least one quest i know of within the normal series of quests that are either part of the main quest line or peripheral to it. this quest requires entry into three houses with the picked lock doors.

So, yet more PVE stuff sacrificed to appease this hunt for targets by PVPers.

Guess getting the PVE justice system hijacked for PVP isn't enough. Now you want the PVE quests too?

Sigh...

This is obviously not my intent.
Now that you mention it, I do remember people complaining that they are forced into breaking the law while role-playing good characters.
This quest should obviously be altered to include a non-Justice solution to it.

petraeus1 · July 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

This is one of the things @STEVIL addressed also, and it made me add this idea into the concept:
All the locked houses are now marked as Trespassing areas.

While this allows the Outlaws to be safe from persecution while inside houses, they will at least get a bounty if seen inside that house by an NPC.

just to be clear, you have now taken away or at least altered (in the name of serving the PVP wanting PVE targets crowd) at least one quest i know of within the normal series of quests that are either part of the main quest line or peripheral to it. this quest requires entry into three houses with the picked lock doors.

So, yet more PVE stuff sacrificed to appease this hunt for targets by PVPers.

Guess getting the PVE justice system hijacked for PVP isn't enough. Now you want the PVE quests too?

Sigh...

One could argue it was the other way around, since from the announcement of Justice back in 2014 it seemed very clear that PvP was part of the intrinsic design. That it didn't come with the first part of the Justice patch in 2015 (described as such: first half), doesn't mean that part of it disappeared.

Either way, it's no use to start fighting over PvE vs. PvP. Justice has a lot of potential for players of both preferences. Shouldn't we be endeavour to find a way both can enjoy the system without ruining the experience for the other? No need to claim Justice for PvE, as if any implementation of Justice PvP would certainly destroy all the PvE fun the system has to offer. There have been plenty of suggestions made in this thread and others to make sure these two content types don't bite each other.

People in favour of Justice PvP (myself included) don't have the intention of ruining people's fun, who are enjoying Justice as it is now. We want to enjoy it more ourselves, we had some great concepts from ZOS and we're trying to figure out how it can be done so everyone can be happy about it. At least grant us that bit of fun, to theorycraft, even if it is 'beating a dead horse'. That's not a crime. If it was, we'd arrest ourselves I assure you

Tandor · July 2016

petraeus1 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

This is one of the things @STEVIL addressed also, and it made me add this idea into the concept:
All the locked houses are now marked as Trespassing areas.

While this allows the Outlaws to be safe from persecution while inside houses, they will at least get a bounty if seen inside that house by an NPC.

just to be clear, you have now taken away or at least altered (in the name of serving the PVP wanting PVE targets crowd) at least one quest i know of within the normal series of quests that are either part of the main quest line or peripheral to it. this quest requires entry into three houses with the picked lock doors.

So, yet more PVE stuff sacrificed to appease this hunt for targets by PVPers.

Guess getting the PVE justice system hijacked for PVP isn't enough. Now you want the PVE quests too?

Sigh...

One could argue it was the other way around, since from the announcement of Justice back in 2014 it seemed very clear that PvP was part of the intrinsic design. That it didn't come with the first part of the Justice patch in 2015 (described as such: first half), doesn't mean that part of it disappeared.

Either way, it's no use to start fighting over PvE vs. PvP. Justice has a lot of potential for players of both preferences. Shouldn't we be endeavour to find a way both can enjoy the system without ruining the experience for the other? No need to claim Justice for PvE, as if any implementation of Justice PvP would certainly destroy all the PvE fun the system has to offer. There have been plenty of suggestions made in this thread and others to make sure these two content types don't bite each other.

People in favour of Justice PvP (myself included) don't have the intention of ruining people's fun, who are enjoying Justice as it is now. We want to enjoy it more ourselves, we had some great concepts from ZOS and we're trying to figure out how it can be done so everyone can be happy about it. At least grant us that bit of fun, to theorycraft, even if it is 'beating a dead horse'. That's not a crime. If it was, we'd arrest ourselves I assure you

So support the principle of an absolute and unconditional opt-out mechanism for those people. There's no reason why there shouldn't be such an opt-out in the game settings rather than tying any opt-out into a player's PvE choices - other than the obvious one which is that PvPers don't want to lose their soft targets among the PvEers and be forced into fighting other PvPers. I'm sure that for most PvPers that isn't the case, which is why I simply don't understand the failure to include an absolute and unconditional opt-out mechanism in all the proposals that get put forward on the addition of PvP to PvE content in PvE areas.

petraeus1 · July 2016

Tandor wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

This is one of the things @STEVIL addressed also, and it made me add this idea into the concept:
All the locked houses are now marked as Trespassing areas.

While this allows the Outlaws to be safe from persecution while inside houses, they will at least get a bounty if seen inside that house by an NPC.

just to be clear, you have now taken away or at least altered (in the name of serving the PVP wanting PVE targets crowd) at least one quest i know of within the normal series of quests that are either part of the main quest line or peripheral to it. this quest requires entry into three houses with the picked lock doors.

So, yet more PVE stuff sacrificed to appease this hunt for targets by PVPers.

Guess getting the PVE justice system hijacked for PVP isn't enough. Now you want the PVE quests too?

Sigh...

One could argue it was the other way around, since from the announcement of Justice back in 2014 it seemed very clear that PvP was part of the intrinsic design. That it didn't come with the first part of the Justice patch in 2015 (described as such: first half), doesn't mean that part of it disappeared.

Either way, it's no use to start fighting over PvE vs. PvP. Justice has a lot of potential for players of both preferences. Shouldn't we be endeavour to find a way both can enjoy the system without ruining the experience for the other? No need to claim Justice for PvE, as if any implementation of Justice PvP would certainly destroy all the PvE fun the system has to offer. There have been plenty of suggestions made in this thread and others to make sure these two content types don't bite each other.

People in favour of Justice PvP (myself included) don't have the intention of ruining people's fun, who are enjoying Justice as it is now. We want to enjoy it more ourselves, we had some great concepts from ZOS and we're trying to figure out how it can be done so everyone can be happy about it. At least grant us that bit of fun, to theorycraft, even if it is 'beating a dead horse'. That's not a crime. If it was, we'd arrest ourselves I assure you

So support the principle of an absolute and unconditional opt-out mechanism for those people. There's no reason why there shouldn't be such an opt-out in the game settings rather than tying any opt-out into a player's PvE choices - other than the obvious one which is that PvPers don't want to lose their soft targets among the PvEers and be forced into fighting other PvPers. I'm sure that for most PvPers that isn't the case, which is why I simply don't understand the failure to include an absolute and unconditional opt-out mechanism in all the proposals that get put forward on the addition of PvP to PvE content in PvE areas.

I'd vastly prefer Justice PvP be limited to a (new) single map, basically another PvP area. That would condense the action, rather than have people in favour of Justice PvP run around seeing whether or not people have opted in. PvE'ers can simply avoid (crime in) that map, just as they avoid Cyrodiil. It could make sense lore-wise, a new map can be balanced a lot better to avoid camping situations, it can offer a new reward scheme similar to Tel Var stones so there are no farming exploits, a proper score system based on thefts vs. arrests etc.

I already imagine people's (not necessarily yours, Tandor) objections: a new map with no opt-out mechanism? We want to PvE there too, we wanna PvE in Cyrodiil and in Imperial City! That would still limit our choices! Sure, but that's rather selfish: there's plenty of PvE options to go around, no one is taking anything away from you. If the rules are known beforehand, i.e. crime in that zone equals PvP, what's the matter: you'd rather have another normal PvE zone? Similarly PvP'ers might want to PvP in every zone, but they can't either.

A new zone would not take away anything from PvE players, it would offer something to people who'd like Justice PvP. That's the most important thing, that it doesn't take away anything. That it may not add anything for PvE players, well, I'm not particularly interested in the two dungeons coming up, so I simply won't buy the pack.

Edit: against hard opt-outs, is that it can be abused and be used to troll people, switching it on and off, baiting etc. It's also not very immersive, though that is of minor importance, since there is also a setting to avoid hitting NPCs. There's probably work arounds, but wouldn't a new map (the size of Hew's Bane or the Gold Coast would be perfect) given the advantages I mentioned above, be preferable?

Edit edit: @Tandor, I'm sure you agree that at least the PvE part of the Justice System (with bandit dens etc.) would be a great and harmless addition still to the base game?

Tandor · July 2016

petraeus1 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

This is one of the things @STEVIL addressed also, and it made me add this idea into the concept:
All the locked houses are now marked as Trespassing areas.

While this allows the Outlaws to be safe from persecution while inside houses, they will at least get a bounty if seen inside that house by an NPC.

just to be clear, you have now taken away or at least altered (in the name of serving the PVP wanting PVE targets crowd) at least one quest i know of within the normal series of quests that are either part of the main quest line or peripheral to it. this quest requires entry into three houses with the picked lock doors.

So, yet more PVE stuff sacrificed to appease this hunt for targets by PVPers.

Guess getting the PVE justice system hijacked for PVP isn't enough. Now you want the PVE quests too?

Sigh...

One could argue it was the other way around, since from the announcement of Justice back in 2014 it seemed very clear that PvP was part of the intrinsic design. That it didn't come with the first part of the Justice patch in 2015 (described as such: first half), doesn't mean that part of it disappeared.

Either way, it's no use to start fighting over PvE vs. PvP. Justice has a lot of potential for players of both preferences. Shouldn't we be endeavour to find a way both can enjoy the system without ruining the experience for the other? No need to claim Justice for PvE, as if any implementation of Justice PvP would certainly destroy all the PvE fun the system has to offer. There have been plenty of suggestions made in this thread and others to make sure these two content types don't bite each other.

People in favour of Justice PvP (myself included) don't have the intention of ruining people's fun, who are enjoying Justice as it is now. We want to enjoy it more ourselves, we had some great concepts from ZOS and we're trying to figure out how it can be done so everyone can be happy about it. At least grant us that bit of fun, to theorycraft, even if it is 'beating a dead horse'. That's not a crime. If it was, we'd arrest ourselves I assure you

So support the principle of an absolute and unconditional opt-out mechanism for those people. There's no reason why there shouldn't be such an opt-out in the game settings rather than tying any opt-out into a player's PvE choices - other than the obvious one which is that PvPers don't want to lose their soft targets among the PvEers and be forced into fighting other PvPers. I'm sure that for most PvPers that isn't the case, which is why I simply don't understand the failure to include an absolute and unconditional opt-out mechanism in all the proposals that get put forward on the addition of PvP to PvE content in PvE areas.

I'd vastly prefer Justice PvP be limited to a (new) single map, basically another PvP area. That would condense the action, rather than have people in favour of Justice PvP run around seeing whether or not people have opted in. PvE'ers can simply avoid (crime in) that map, just as they avoid Cyrodiil. It could make sense lore-wise, a new map can be balanced a lot better to avoid camping situations, it can offer a new reward scheme similar to Tel Var stones so there are no farming exploits, a proper score system based on thefts vs. arrests etc.

I already imagine people's (not necessarily yours, Tandor) objections: a new map with no opt-out mechanism? We want to PvE there too, we wanna PvE in Cyrodiil and in Imperial City! That would still limit our choices! Sure, but that's rather selfish: there's plenty of PvE options to go around, no one is taking anything away from you. If the rules are known beforehand, i.e. crime in that zone equals PvP, what's the matter: you'd rather have another normal PvE zone? Similarly PvP'ers might want to PvP in every zone, but they can't either.

A new zone would not take away anything from PvE players, it would offer something to people who'd like Justice PvP. That's the most important thing, that it doesn't take away anything. That it may not add anything for PvE players, well, I'm not particularly interested in the two dungeons coming up, so I simply won't buy the pack.

Edit: against hard opt-outs, is that it can be abused and be used to troll people, switching it on and off, baiting etc. It's also not very immersive, though that is of minor importance, since there is also a setting to avoid hitting NPCs. There's probably work arounds, but wouldn't a new map (the size of Hew's Bane or the Gold Coast would be perfect) given the advantages I mentioned above, be preferable?

That's fine by me, I only want an absolute and unconditional opt--out if PvP is exported from PvP zones into PvE ones, although like you (and ZOS) I'd far rather keep the two playstyles entirely separate. I have no issue with new PvP zones being added, although I don't want another IC with significant PvE content in those zones locked behind PvP.

STEVIL · July 2016

petraeus1 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

This is one of the things @STEVIL addressed also, and it made me add this idea into the concept:
All the locked houses are now marked as Trespassing areas.

While this allows the Outlaws to be safe from persecution while inside houses, they will at least get a bounty if seen inside that house by an NPC.

just to be clear, you have now taken away or at least altered (in the name of serving the PVP wanting PVE targets crowd) at least one quest i know of within the normal series of quests that are either part of the main quest line or peripheral to it. this quest requires entry into three houses with the picked lock doors.

So, yet more PVE stuff sacrificed to appease this hunt for targets by PVPers.

Guess getting the PVE justice system hijacked for PVP isn't enough. Now you want the PVE quests too?

Sigh...

One could argue it was the other way around, since from the announcement of Justice back in 2014 it seemed very clear that PvP was part of the intrinsic design. That it didn't come with the first part of the Justice patch in 2015 (described as such: first half), doesn't mean that part of it disappeared.

Either way, it's no use to start fighting over PvE vs. PvP. Justice has a lot of potential for players of both preferences. Shouldn't we be endeavor to find a way both can enjoy the system without ruining the experience for the other? No need to claim Justice for PvE, as if any implementation of Justice PvP would certainly destroy all the PvE fun the system has to offer. There have been plenty of suggestions made in this thread and others to make sure these two content types don't bite each other.

People in favor of Justice PvP (myself included) don't have the intention of ruining people's fun, who are enjoying Justice as it is now. We want to enjoy it more ourselves, we had some great concepts from ZOS and we're trying to figure out how it can be done so everyone can be happy about it. At least grant us that bit of fun, to theorycraft, even if it is 'beating a dead horse'. That's not a crime. If it was, we'd arrest ourselves I assure you

One day maybe some people will learn the difference between plans and execution and that sometimes plans dont turn out to be the best options. Fortunately, ZOS did. Also, PVP justicedidn't disappear because it never existed. However, the plan to implement it did vanish with ZOS announcements, regardless of how many people want to refuse to recognize what "nothing's impossible" means in a public setting discussion. It really means "NO but shut up about it" just put nicer. When you contrast it with the stringer announcement about NO, NO, No... its baffling that someone can honestly think "hey its still on the table."

Justice has lots of potential. i fully endorse a law and order DLC and expanding the PVE content to include dailies and escort missions all over tamriel. I even endorse a PVP-ONLy justice option if that is something PVP players prefer zos to spend their PVP effort making. But since practically EVERY PVP-Justice idea seems to be forced to include PVP taking stuff from PVE and then drawing PVE players in as targets for PVPers even though they take PVE actions... I cant find a PVP-swipes-PVE systems i can at all endorse. Even you backed off the idea of having the transition to PVP be a side-by-side with confirm PVE or PVP option instead of removing the PVE FLEE option.

As for what PVPers or Justice PVPers don't want... arent there more than a few posts here, and in other threads, that justify the objectives based on (paraphrasing) "i see other players committing crimes stealing and killing and it bothers me they get away with it and PVP would let me at them"? That sounds an awful lot like players who see other player doing stuff the other players find enjoyable and want to stop that or at least interfere in it.

I haven't discussed you not being allowed to theorycraft all you want.

The only issue i would have in that regard is the notion that a theorycraft about a PVP required plan should IMO be put in one of the PVP forums, but that doesn't happen normally and isn't enforced by the mods so... no big deal.

My biggest complaints with these threads is the slieght of hand" where clear declarative statements like only getting drawn in if you flee masque "well and this other way too..." end-arounds seemingly added to snare more unsuspecting PVE players if the mistaken "safety" helped convince others to put it forward.

Dubhliam · July 2016

petraeus1 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

This is one of the things @STEVIL addressed also, and it made me add this idea into the concept:
All the locked houses are now marked as Trespassing areas.

While this allows the Outlaws to be safe from persecution while inside houses, they will at least get a bounty if seen inside that house by an NPC.

just to be clear, you have now taken away or at least altered (in the name of serving the PVP wanting PVE targets crowd) at least one quest i know of within the normal series of quests that are either part of the main quest line or peripheral to it. this quest requires entry into three houses with the picked lock doors.

So, yet more PVE stuff sacrificed to appease this hunt for targets by PVPers.

Guess getting the PVE justice system hijacked for PVP isn't enough. Now you want the PVE quests too?

Sigh...

One could argue it was the other way around, since from the announcement of Justice back in 2014 it seemed very clear that PvP was part of the intrinsic design. That it didn't come with the first part of the Justice patch in 2015 (described as such: first half), doesn't mean that part of it disappeared.

Either way, it's no use to start fighting over PvE vs. PvP. Justice has a lot of potential for players of both preferences. Shouldn't we be endeavour to find a way both can enjoy the system without ruining the experience for the other? No need to claim Justice for PvE, as if any implementation of Justice PvP would certainly destroy all the PvE fun the system has to offer. There have been plenty of suggestions made in this thread and others to make sure these two content types don't bite each other.

People in favour of Justice PvP (myself included) don't have the intention of ruining people's fun, who are enjoying Justice as it is now. We want to enjoy it more ourselves, we had some great concepts from ZOS and we're trying to figure out how it can be done so everyone can be happy about it. At least grant us that bit of fun, to theorycraft, even if it is 'beating a dead horse'. That's not a crime. If it was, we'd arrest ourselves I assure you

So support the principle of an absolute and unconditional opt-out mechanism for those people. There's no reason why there shouldn't be such an opt-out in the game settings rather than tying any opt-out into a player's PvE choices - other than the obvious one which is that PvPers don't want to lose their soft targets among the PvEers and be forced into fighting other PvPers. I'm sure that for most PvPers that isn't the case, which is why I simply don't understand the failure to include an absolute and unconditional opt-out mechanism in all the proposals that get put forward on the addition of PvP to PvE content in PvE areas.

I'd vastly prefer Justice PvP be limited to a (new) single map, basically another PvP area. That would condense the action, rather than have people in favour of Justice PvP run around seeing whether or not people have opted in. PvE'ers can simply avoid (crime in) that map, just as they avoid Cyrodiil. It could make sense lore-wise, a new map can be balanced a lot better to avoid camping situations, it can offer a new reward scheme similar to Tel Var stones so there are no farming exploits, a proper score system based on thefts vs. arrests etc.

I already imagine people's (not necessarily yours, Tandor) objections: a new map with no opt-out mechanism? We want to PvE there too, we wanna PvE in Cyrodiil and in Imperial City! That would still limit our choices! Sure, but that's rather selfish: there's plenty of PvE options to go around, no one is taking anything away from you. If the rules are known beforehand, i.e. crime in that zone equals PvP, what's the matter: you'd rather have another normal PvE zone? Similarly PvP'ers might want to PvP in every zone, but they can't either.

A new zone would not take away anything from PvE players, it would offer something to people who'd like Justice PvP. That's the most important thing, that it doesn't take away anything. That it may not add anything for PvE players, well, I'm not particularly interested in the two dungeons coming up, so I simply won't buy the pack.

Edit: against hard opt-outs, is that it can be abused and be used to troll people, switching it on and off, baiting etc. It's also not very immersive, though that is of minor importance, since there is also a setting to avoid hitting NPCs. There's probably work arounds, but wouldn't a new map (the size of Hew's Bane or the Gold Coast would be perfect) given the advantages I mentioned above, be preferable?

Edit edit: @Tandor, I'm sure you agree that at least the PvE part of the Justice System (with bandit dens etc.) would be a great and harmless addition still to the base game?

This is exactly my concern when trying to include an opt-out system, yet people don't seem to be willing to accept such reasoning.

@Tandor & @STEVIL :
Give me an example of an opt-out system you think would work, and I will instantly find a way to grief in it.

AmberLaTerra · July 2016

Give me an example of a no opt out system that has no way to grief in it.

You cannot do so, there is no way to prevent griefing in one form or another and that is why this will never happen. You are just too stubborn to see the truth of the matter.

Jaronking · July 2016

stevenbennett_ESO wrote: »

I'm one of those people who would absolutely hate to have the PvP Justice system implemented. I wouldn't quit ESO, but I'd be highly frustrated that a segment of the game I'm finding highly enjoyable right now thanks to the recent DLCs would be seriously nerfed by my need to avoid the PvP griefers who would be lurking around in towns to kill anyone who happens to trigger the PvP flag. I don't do PvP -- I'm absolutely terrible at it, and would stand no chance. (And I "Flee" all the time -- it's a matter of honor that I should never pay a bounty to a Guard...)

What you're suggesting ONLY has benefit to the PvP players -- it has NO benefit to PvE players AT ALL. It's just a meaningless hurdle for PvE players, and not a very fun one. ("If I flee from the guards, maybe I can get away," a potentially exciting chase scene, becomes a boring "If I flee from the guards, I'll just be ganked by a dozen annoying PvPers, so why do I even bother playing?")

If you *really* want to have PvP Justice, the only real way to do it is to have a completely separate and isolated instance of the servers for people who want to do PvP Justice. If you want to do PvP Justice, you'd have to be in that instance. Heck - you could then have PvP anywhere in Tamriel, and those of us who don't want to deal with the PvP stuff don't have to see it or know it's happening. SWTOR recently changed how they handle PvP to follow this scheme - every server there now has PvP and PvE instances, and you select which one you want. It's made PvE in that game a LOT more fun, because we no longer have to worry about the annoying PvPers bothering us anymore.

Which is, IMHO, the most likely reason PvP players are into this idea -- the idea of being able to gank PvE players must make them feel like a kid in a candy store. I wonder how many PvPers would still be as strongly supportive of a PvP Justice system if they knew NONE the PvE players wouldn't be involved... And I wonder how many of the people who support PvP Justice identify as PvE players -- I'm guessing it's a tiny percentage if any all all.

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

So this dead horse whipping is still on page one?

The simple fact is the only PVP players who support PVP justice are the ones who need to zerg or only know how to gank and nothing else in PVP.

The good PVPer's are happy with the PVP they have and are not looking for easy kills because they get their kills just fine in Cyro and Imperial city. It is the bad ones who rarely get kills and end up always killed who want this so they can target un-scaled noobs for easy kills.

Let's face facts 90% of these PVP justice supports want to be able to camp quest area's, or starter cities to kill. They would never go after someone in decent gear at their own level, they would go after the low levels that are new and could not defend themselves.

It would destroy thieving as a way for new players to make some money for their horse, first couple bank and bag upgrades and so on, and just lead to those new players quitting in frustration. The only way a MMO survives is by new players coming to the game as older players move on, you cut off that flow of new players by allowing the ones who cannot handle real PVP to constantly grief them you kill the game.

You want PVP go to the PVP zones like I do when I am in the mood for PVP, do not look for ways to slaughter noobs for easy free kills because you cannot handle the real PVPer's.

You really don't know about PVP at all it would seem.Lol most of the best PVPers are tired of Cryo because of how laggy it is.So obviously you don't know what you talking about and just a only PVE Player who want to PVP got ganked and no think all PVPers are like that.Your to bias for your opinion to really mean anything in this doubt unlike @Tandor who at least try to be opened minded.