Is the Champion Point System Really Better than Veteran Ranks?

Kalifas · July 2016

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Meh.

I rather preferred the VR system, at least then I had the illusion of progressing further at end-game. Now, when I get a new CP... it just doesn't feel like anything has changed.

Before the trolls jump all over this; I'm at CP459, have a full stable of eight (8) characters, and had them all at various levels of Vet Ranks before the change that accompanied the Dark Brotherhood release.

I'm a PvE only player, and I really did not mind at all at working each character through the Vet Ranks. It has long been my opinion that the change from the vertical progression of VR, to the horizontal progression of the CP-only system was simply to placate impatient PvP kids.

While I've heard plenty of people who both steadfastly agree with me, and those who vehemently disagree with me (and I'll hear more from both sides, guaranteed), the fact that it's here... it is what it is.

It's really just the VR wrapped in a different skin, made account wide, and throwing a halt on forward progression in favor of horizontal progression.

But nothing better is even hinted at being in the works, even though many other MMORPG's utilize much better end-game level progression methods, there's nothing in the works.

So; I'm simply "Meh" about it and I just play the game. But the CP-only system is no better than the VR system. Just a different name tacked on to placate the very vocal minority.

I would not call the champion system horizontal progression. It more of a vertical progression that allows more customization. The actual Vet system is just a small stat increase that later on added attribute points that gave people the false appearance of a level that only locked people out of content. While the champion system gives a attribute stat increase with the option to put points into stuff that you never had control of before. There is more vertical progression in the champion system than ever was in the vet system. Plus the Vet system been stuck at Vet 16 for so long that there was no progression anyway.

The Champion Point system is thru and thru horizontal.

All the main attributes of leveling are learn new skills, more powerful gear, morph skills, gain max health, stamina, and magicka. These are your ceilings by going vertical.

Champion Points don't increase max anything or raise the ceiling in those categories which would be called vertical, meaning it goes up and not sideways. Champion points do go up but cannot raise the ceiling on the main attributes of leveling hence they are horizontal.

You can see this very clearly with the overcharge effect. Once you hit the vertical ceiling of the 1-50 game, your horizontal things lose power and force you to go sideways or try to make you overcome that with food or gear.

But this isn't a horizontal vs vertical thread but more a debate about account wide vs character bound and vr grind vs champion grind.

Uriel_Nocturne · July 2016

Humatiel wrote: »

Why on earth would anyone enjoy grinding? My account has ~260M experience on it from the forced grind of different characters and it was a miserable process. This allows me to get into the game I want (pve/pvp) and not deal with the ten million quests that involve "run to point A, kill X, run back to start...hoozah"

Socratic Method:

Why would anyone enjoy having a system in place where you can have a full stable of 8-12 characters all at max end-game rank in the blink of an eye, but with nowhere left to progress said character?

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Meh.

I rather preferred the VR system, at least then I had the illusion of progressing further at end-game. Now, when I get a new CP... it just doesn't feel like anything has changed.

Before the trolls jump all over this; I'm at CP459, have a full stable of eight (8) characters, and had them all at various levels of Vet Ranks before the change that accompanied the Dark Brotherhood release.

I'm a PvE only player, and I really did not mind at all at working each character through the Vet Ranks. It has long been my opinion that the change from the vertical progression of VR, to the horizontal progression of the CP-only system was simply to placate impatient PvP kids.

While I've heard plenty of people who both steadfastly agree with me, and those who vehemently disagree with me (and I'll hear more from both sides, guaranteed), the fact that it's here... it is what it is.

It's really just the VR wrapped in a different skin, made account wide, and throwing a halt on forward progression in favor of horizontal progression.

But nothing better is even hinted at being in the works, even though many other MMORPG's utilize much better end-game level progression methods, there's nothing in the works.

So; I'm simply "Meh" about it and I just play the game. But the CP-only system is no better than the VR system. Just a different name tacked on to placate the very vocal minority.

I would not call the champion system horizontal progression. It more of a vertical progression that allows more customization. The actual Vet system is just a small stat increase that later on added attribute points that gave people the false appearance of a level that only locked people out of content. While the champion system gives a attribute stat increase with the option to put points into stuff that you never had control of before. There is more vertical progression in the champion system than ever was in the vet system. Plus the Vet system been stuck at Vet 16 for so long that there was no progression anyway.

But that's exactly where the CP system is a horizontal progression rather than upward leveling system.

While I agree that the VR system was more illusion than anything, it gave the player something to strive for. A new level (along with the CP's earned along the way), attribute points, further Skill points, etc. With the CP system, once you max out your first character, you get your Alt's to max level in the blink of an eye, then there's nothing to do aside form hunt any missing Skyshards.

The fractional percentage increases allowed for by CP allocation are nominal in their effects, hence my statement that you gain a new CP level, and it seems as though nothing changes.

As far as upward vertical progression, that's true... on your fist character. After that, it's all vertical as all of your characters have the exact same amount of CP's, therefore there's no "earning and moving forward". Simply allocating the points differently to accommodate for different builds is in no way "vertical progression". That is however, the very definition of horizontal movement, as those CP's were already earned.

Finally; the reason the the VR system had been stagnant for two years was because of lack of updates/changes due to ZOS trying to rework the game for this (IMO) disastrous CP-only system. Had they never decided to remove the VR system, there would have been VR increase and changes to allow it to evolve alongside the rest of the game as each DLC came and went. This is the same method that works very well in... most every other MMORPG. There's end-game leveling, the cap is set for a certain time, then gets bumped up every so often with certain updates to the game, allowing for vertical progression to continue.

This is, after all, an RPG. Horizontal stagnation like the CP system brings in is antithetical to the continued growth of a character, especially Alts since they aren't "earning" any CP's that your Main/first character didn't already earn.

Amsel_McKay · July 2016

I left ESO because of Vet levels... I came back the day they removed them I had CP74 after the conversion, I since finished Silver and Gold on one of my Chars and have CP 311... Now my alts all have CP311 (which is nice as I created 1 of every class to level 50 before I quit) now I can play around with each of them and not have to do gold and silver again...

The only issue I see I am having now is my skill points are low on alts, and I dont want to get achievements on my alts I always do them on my main, because I cant be bothered to do them twice or more times (the problem with VR leveling)

Humatiel · July 2016

vyrusb23 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

Why on earth would anyone enjoy grinding? My account has ~260M experience on it from the forced grind of different characters and it was a miserable process. This allows me to get into the game I want (pve/pvp) and not deal with the ten million quests that involve "run to point A, kill X, run back to start...hoozah"

Almost every MMO in the history of MMOs has or has had a "grind" to them. Questing is a traditional part of most MMOs. I've always hated the word "grinding". I don't consider playing the game grinding. Even when it's content that I've done before.

Why on earth would anyone play a video game if they are miserable doing it?

I'm aware, Runescape to Eve to this over 13 years or so. That doesn't make grinding any more fun though lol. I do enjoy a large portion of the game, I just dislike the overworld portion of it. As far as my playstyle is concerned ESO can be a grey box with one portal for pvp and one portal leading to all pve instances and I would be perfectly happy.

vyrusb23 · July 2016

Humatiel wrote: »

I'm aware, Runescape to Eve to this over 13 years or so.

More like almost 20 years. I was playing Ultima Online back in 1997.

Humatiel wrote: »

That doesn't make grinding any more fun though lol. I do enjoy a large portion of the game, I just dislike the overworld portion of it.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. What do you mean when you say the "overworld portion?" The quests?

Humatiel wrote: »

As far as my playstyle is concerned ESO can be a grey box with one portal for pvp and one portal leading to all pve instances and I would be perfectly happy.

I'm also not exactly sure what you mean by this statement. I think I might agree with you? I'm definitely not a PvP'r, and would be ecstatic if they completely seperated the two with different servers (or completely removed PvP altogether .. though I know it's a pipe dream).

nimander99 · July 2016

I love the idea of the CP System, personally, it's never ending character progress which is a big part of what helps me choose an MMO... The other big part is if that MMO takes place in Tamriel

Humatiel · July 2016

vyrusb23 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

I'm aware, Runescape to Eve to this over 13 years or so.

More like almost 20 years. I was playing Ultima Online back in 1997.

Humatiel wrote: »

That doesn't make grinding any more fun though lol. I do enjoy a large portion of the game, I just dislike the overworld portion of it.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. What do you mean when you say the "overworld portion?" The quests?

Humatiel wrote: »

As far as my playstyle is concerned ESO can be a grey box with one portal for pvp and one portal leading to all pve instances and I would be perfectly happy.

I'm also not exactly sure what you mean by this statement. I think I might agree with you? I'm definitely not a PvP'r, and would be ecstatic if they completely seperated the two with different servers (or completely removed PvP altogether .. though I know it's a pipe dream).

Overworld mobs have been nerfed to the point I can put 1 dot down and afk and they die, quests make me want to go to work, and I'm not particularly prone to scenery. So in short I avoid the vast majority of eso outside of pve instances and cyrodil. I was making the point that if I logged into eso and it was a grey room and on one side of it was a portal to cyrodil and one side was a portal to pve instances and that was the entire game I would be more content to play it.

vyrusb23 · July 2016

Humatiel wrote: »

vyrusb23 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

I'm aware, Runescape to Eve to this over 13 years or so.

More like almost 20 years. I was playing Ultima Online back in 1997.

Humatiel wrote: »

That doesn't make grinding any more fun though lol. I do enjoy a large portion of the game, I just dislike the overworld portion of it.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. What do you mean when you say the "overworld portion?" The quests?

Humatiel wrote: »

As far as my playstyle is concerned ESO can be a grey box with one portal for pvp and one portal leading to all pve instances and I would be perfectly happy.

I'm also not exactly sure what you mean by this statement. I think I might agree with you? I'm definitely not a PvP'r, and would be ecstatic if they completely seperated the two with different servers (or completely removed PvP altogether .. though I know it's a pipe dream).

Overworld mobs have been nerfed to the point I can put 1 dot down and afk and they die, quests make me want to go to work, and I'm not particularly prone to scenery. So in short I avoid the vast majority of eso outside of pve instances and cyrodil. I was making the point that if I logged into eso and it was a grey room and on one side of it was a portal to cyrodil and one side was a portal to pve instances and that was the entire game I would be more content to play it.

Ok. Just gotta get this straight here ...

You don't like quests.
You don't like exploring.
You don't like the scenery.
You only like PvE instances (which there are almost none of ... relatively speaking).
You like PvP in Cyrodil.

Seeing as how almost everybody complains about PvP, and there are very few PvE instances, what in gods name are you doing here?

Asherons_Call · July 2016

There is no difference. The name of things is different but the numbers are the same. Much ado about nothing over the past several months

vyrusb23 · July 2016

Asherons_Call wrote: »

There is no difference. The name of things is different but the numbers are the same. Much ado about nothing over the past several months

It's definitely different. CP applys to all of your characters. Veteran levels did not. That is a fundamental difference. Also, you don't get character points and skill points with CP. You did with veteran levels.

Humatiel · July 2016

vyrusb23 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

vyrusb23 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

I'm aware, Runescape to Eve to this over 13 years or so.

More like almost 20 years. I was playing Ultima Online back in 1997.

Humatiel wrote: »

That doesn't make grinding any more fun though lol. I do enjoy a large portion of the game, I just dislike the overworld portion of it.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. What do you mean when you say the "overworld portion?" The quests?

Humatiel wrote: »

As far as my playstyle is concerned ESO can be a grey box with one portal for pvp and one portal leading to all pve instances and I would be perfectly happy.

I'm also not exactly sure what you mean by this statement. I think I might agree with you? I'm definitely not a PvP'r, and would be ecstatic if they completely seperated the two with different servers (or completely removed PvP altogether .. though I know it's a pipe dream).

Overworld mobs have been nerfed to the point I can put 1 dot down and afk and they die, quests make me want to go to work, and I'm not particularly prone to scenery. So in short I avoid the vast majority of eso outside of pve instances and cyrodil. I was making the point that if I logged into eso and it was a grey room and on one side of it was a portal to cyrodil and one side was a portal to pve instances and that was the entire game I would be more content to play it.

Ok. Just gotta get this straight here ...

You don't like quests.
You don't like exploring.
You don't like the scenery.
You only like PvE instances (which there are almost none of ... relatively speaking).
You like PvP in Cyrodil.

Seeing as how almost everybody complains about PvP, and there are very few PvE instances, what in gods name are you doing here?

I don't complain about pvp, I find it quite fun. I also enjoy pve (beyond the completion factor) and between the two it keeps me reasonably occupied.

DHale · July 2016

It's wasn't supposed to be better... Something about horizontal progression system vs vertical progression system or some such nonsense that doesn't mean anything to anyone anywhere at any time... Ever.

Tandor · July 2016

As a form of the advanced skill trees that many MMOs have these days, I don't have a problem with champion points. However, I do wish they weren't account-wide as I dislike anything that trivialises the raising of any of a player's characters. I don't consider that I have one main and a number of alts, they are all equal characters in my book, and I would much prefer to develop them individually. I don't regard any aspect of that development process as grinding, I regard it all as playing the game.

Vaoh · July 2016

Ahem....

..... yeah, it is.

AFrostWolf · July 2016

No, it wasn't.

Draxys · July 2016

Having 50 be the level cap is nice, but CP has ruined this game's pvp for me. There used to be checks and balances. There used to limits so that no one could be unkillable and simultaneously have great damage and sustain. Yea, I know there is Azura's Star for that, but it seems to be mostly just lame groups that think nightcapping a map and complaining about veteran players is what pvp is all about.

Crowzer · July 2016

Vet ranks were not so good but al least, no need to grind as hell to get CP. I left the game when CP system hit and need to grind to cath up because I did everything in the past.

Unfortunatly, it's truly a vertical progression.

Draxys wrote: »

Having 50 be the level cap is nice, but CP has ruined this game's pvp for me. ...

Same for me. And my main reason to play ESO is PvP so....

AmberLaTerra · July 2016

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

But that's exactly where the CP system is a horizontal progression rather than upward leveling system.

While I agree that the VR system was more illusion than anything, it gave the player something to strive for. A new level (along with the CP's earned along the way), attribute points, further Skill points, etc. With the CP system, once you max out your first character, you get your Alt's to max level in the blink of an eye, then there's nothing to do aside form hunt any missing Skyshards.

The fractional percentage increases allowed for by CP allocation are nominal in their effects, hence my statement that you gain a new CP level, and it seems as though nothing changes.

As far as upward vertical progression, that's true... on your fist character. After that, it's all vertical as all of your characters have the exact same amount of CP's, therefore there's no "earning and moving forward". Simply allocating the points differently to accommodate for different builds is in no way "vertical progression". That is however, the very definition of horizontal movement, as those CP's were already earned.

Finally; the reason the the VR system had been stagnant for two years was because of lack of updates/changes due to ZOS trying to rework the game for this (IMO) disastrous CP-only system. Had they never decided to remove the VR system, there would have been VR increase and changes to allow it to evolve alongside the rest of the game as each DLC came and went. This is the same method that works very well in... most every other MMORPG. There's end-game leveling, the cap is set for a certain time, then gets bumped up every so often with certain updates to the game, allowing for vertical progression to continue.

This is, after all, an RPG. Horizontal stagnation like the CP system brings in is antithetical to the continued growth of a character, especially Alts since they aren't "earning" any CP's that your Main/first character didn't already earn.

This, so much this. I have not played since the beginning of the game, I myself have only played about 6 months due to being out of work with a back injury and not being able to afford the game until all the bills from that were paid off once back to work so delayed in buying it.

I was vet5 at the time of the change with 190cp, and jumped right into top end gear and end game content at the change over. It has lead to me already leveling one other character to 50, and working on a 3rd now without even bothering with Caldwell's silver or gold as it just feels there is little point in doing them while I want to get my DPS and pvp characters finished out in the gear I would prefer them in and have been funding that with getting master angler's and dungeons on my old main who is a tank or my subpar first build DPS.

I want to do silver and gold at some point, but without the need to do them thanks to the CP system doing the actual story of the game has become secondary and meaningless to actual progress which should not be the case in a game. While I love being able to jump right into end game content I do feel it kind of cheats the purpose of there even being Caldwell's quests.

Grant it I am still only at 261 cp, I have had many tell me I am an excellent tank and one they prefer to run with because I know how to play the role properly which a the end of the day is more important then raw CP because a tank who tries to DPS, or does not maintain argo is pretty useless even at the cap since they are not tanking.

newtinmpls · July 2016

vyrusb23 wrote: »

Why on earth would anyone play a video game if they are miserable doing it?

Something I have never understood, myself.

STEVIL · July 2016

To my thinking there are FIVE definable differences:
ACCOUNT-WIDE: Players with less time can still get multiple characters to top tier if they can get the onte there or even several half-way. So in a way this helps "less time" players get multiple competitive options more than having to run each all the way up did. high end high time players already had lots of high end characters.
DIMINISHING RETURNS: With VR the gains were baiscally the same... higher equal better and usually by similar amounts. With Cp, the trees all have diminishing returns. So even thougn Cp can be raised the gains get smaller and smaller. if they raised VR to 18, the diff between 49 and VR18 would be greater than the diff between 49 and CP531 due to the diminishing returns. (especially since VR meant extra attributes and skills not just some passive bonus from Cp.)
The FIVE AND DIME: characters at 49 and then 50 already have most or all the skill points and attributes gained from the old VR1-16 run. This raises their base starting point. However, the high ene characters are still basically the same as before. This again tightens the gap somewhat - esp skills IMO.
STUFF STILL SUCKS: In the Vr days, raising VR by 2 meant also two more gear levels available for crafted sets. Since gear plays a HUGE role... this is a HUGE upper for the high end VR guys. In the CP system, raising CAP does not mean raising GEAr at all so... not anywhere near as big a jump.
STORING OVER CAP: This one IMO changes the balance in the reverse way. Right after a cap raise, the highest of the high end folks will JUMP immediately by 30cp. In the Vr days... they would have to play to level up all 8-12 characters and so the gains would take a while to materialize. This will however be short lived.

So reading the original question and focusing on the perspective of VR vs Cp system for power gap between top and bottom my viewpoint is the Cp system is much friendlier for the bottom end than the old VR levels were.

and so... it is better within that context.

Bromburak · July 2016

Is the Champion Point System Really Better than Veteran Ranks?

Actually it killed PvE because thats what makes you raid naked.
Why? Because in ESO you can ...

With all that maximum extra damage, the healing done and healing received in Cyrodiil is still completely outrageous

Not in Cyrodiil, in CP campaigns ...
At least we have a choice today, it took a while.

ADarklore · July 2016

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

This, so much this. I have not played since the beginning of the game, I myself have only played about 6 months due to being out of work with a back injury and not being able to afford the game until all the bills from that were paid off once back to work so delayed in buying it.

I was vet5 at the time of the change with 190cp, and jumped right into top end gear and end game content at the change over. It has lead to me already leveling one other character to 50, and working on a 3rd now without even bothering with Caldwell's silver or gold as it just feels there is little point in doing them while I want to get my DPS and pvp characters finished out in the gear I would prefer them in and have been funding that with getting master angler's and dungeons on my old main who is a tank or my subpar first build DPS.

I want to do silver and gold at some point, but without the need to do them thanks to the CP system doing the actual story of the game has become secondary and meaningless to actual progress which should not be the case in a game. While I love being able to jump right into end game content I do feel it kind of cheats the purpose of there even being Caldwell's quests.

Grant it I am still only at 261 cp, I have had many tell me I am an excellent tank and one they prefer to run with because I know how to play the role properly which a the end of the day is more important then raw CP because a tank who tries to DPS, or does not maintain argo is pretty useless even at the cap since they are not tanking.

But all of this is YOUR choice... you aren't forced to 'rush to get end game gear'... this is YOU choosing to do it. Whatever happened to people taking responsibility for their actions instead of blaming everything else for their choices?!?

I make alts, I grind to level 50, I equip the top gear, and then I proceed to go back and finish main alliance quests and continue on to Cadwell's. I don't feel any type of 'meaninglessness' to the quests because I always go back and finish them. Sorry, but I don't consider 'end game gear' to be the END of the game... and thanks to CP, there is always something we're gaining along the way which helps ALL our characters. ESO is awesome compared to other MMOs which FORCE you to constant gear grind in order to meet the 'minimum requirements' placed on content; with ESO, soon all players will be able to play any content at any time at any level.

starkerealm · July 2016

Kalifas wrote: »

The Champion Point system is thru and thru horizontal.

All the main attributes of leveling are learn new skills, more powerful gear, morph skills, gain max health, stamina, and magicka. These are your ceilings by going vertical.

Champion Points don't increase max anything or raise the ceiling in those categories which would be called vertical, meaning it goes up and not sideways. Champion points do go up but cannot raise the ceiling on the main attributes of leveling hence they are horizontal.

You can see this very clearly with the overcharge effect. Once you hit the vertical ceiling of the 1-50 game, your horizontal things lose power and force you to go sideways or try to make you overcome that with food or gear.

But this isn't a horizontal vs vertical thread but more a debate about account wide vs character bound and vr grind vs champion grind.

Uh... Champion points do, in fact, increase your attributes. Each point spent on warrior star increases health by a small percentage. Each point spent on a thief star increases stamina. Each point spent on a mage star increases magicka. Also, these are not insignificant gains. If I roll up a new character, as a CR295, my base stats will be roughly 1k higher, each, after assigning my CP.

Kalifas · July 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

Kalifas wrote: »

The Champion Point system is thru and thru horizontal.

All the main attributes of leveling are learn new skills, more powerful gear, morph skills, gain max health, stamina, and magicka. These are your ceilings by going vertical.

Champion Points don't increase max anything or raise the ceiling in those categories which would be called vertical, meaning it goes up and not sideways. Champion points do go up but cannot raise the ceiling on the main attributes of leveling hence they are horizontal.

You can see this very clearly with the overcharge effect. Once you hit the vertical ceiling of the 1-50 game, your horizontal things lose power and force you to go sideways or try to make you overcome that with food or gear.

But this isn't a horizontal vs vertical thread but more a debate about account wide vs character bound and vr grind vs champion grind.

Uh... Champion points do, in fact, increase your attributes. Each point spent on warrior star increases health by a small percentage. Each point spent on a thief star increases stamina. Each point spent on a mage star increases magicka. Also, these are not insignificant gains. If I roll up a new character, as a CR295, my base stats will be roughly 1k higher, each, after assigning my CP.

I did actually know that. But it seems to have slipped my train of thought. Well then this is why a newer player is at a complete disadvantage to a persistent elder player. The CP system is like a vertical and horizontal child. If you allow players to go up and sideways with a system that allows so many parameters to be raised in addition to the ceiling, it would be hard to balance game difficulty for casuals and hardcore to co-exist in the setting.

They need to remove the health, magicka, and stamina increases from the system since they raise the ceiling on survival and damage. Then it is only sideways progression.

AmberLaTerra · July 2016

ADarklore wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

This, so much this. I have not played since the beginning of the game, I myself have only played about 6 months due to being out of work with a back injury and not being able to afford the game until all the bills from that were paid off once back to work so delayed in buying it.

I was vet5 at the time of the change with 190cp, and jumped right into top end gear and end game content at the change over. It has lead to me already leveling one other character to 50, and working on a 3rd now without even bothering with Caldwell's silver or gold as it just feels there is little point in doing them while I want to get my DPS and pvp characters finished out in the gear I would prefer them in and have been funding that with getting master angler's and dungeons on my old main who is a tank or my subpar first build DPS.

I want to do silver and gold at some point, but without the need to do them thanks to the CP system doing the actual story of the game has become secondary and meaningless to actual progress which should not be the case in a game. While I love being able to jump right into end game content I do feel it kind of cheats the purpose of there even being Caldwell's quests.

Grant it I am still only at 261 cp, I have had many tell me I am an excellent tank and one they prefer to run with because I know how to play the role properly which a the end of the day is more important then raw CP because a tank who tries to DPS, or does not maintain argo is pretty useless even at the cap since they are not tanking.

But all of this is YOUR choice... you aren't forced to 'rush to get end game gear'... this is YOU choosing to do it. Whatever happened to people taking responsibility for their actions instead of blaming everything else for their choices?!?

I make alts, I grind to level 50, I equip the top gear, and then I proceed to go back and finish main alliance quests and continue on to Cadwell's. I don't feel any type of 'meaninglessness' to the quests because I always go back and finish them. Sorry, but I don't consider 'end game gear' to be the END of the game... and thanks to CP, there is always something we're gaining along the way which helps ALL our characters. ESO is awesome compared to other MMOs which FORCE you to constant gear grind in order to meet the 'minimum requirements' placed on content; with ESO, soon all players will be able to play any content at any time at any level.

But is it really a choice? I can enjoy play time with my guild mates and play a social aspect of the game getting good rewards for doing so and making more friends within my guilds, or I can solo grind through caldwell's getting minimal reward and being anti-social.

Maybe if doing the caldwell's quests had decent incentives to do it you could claim it is a choice, but as it stands now it is just a handicap that can be dealt with during free time when not enjoying playing with my guildmates and earning worth while rewards that caldwell's in no way offers.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · July 2016

to me the vet ranks where better the cp points are passives, u felt like you achieved something when you got a character to end level. There is no sense of that feeling now, as it can only take 8 hours to get to end game, well i say end game its far from it just because you get a character to level 50 and then gain the cp you have for it, does not make it end game you still have to level up skills