Is the Champion Point System Really Better than Veteran Ranks?

dwtdwtdwt

I have been playing this game off-and-on since NA launch. I pre-ordered and played religiously for the first 5-months, or so. I took a little break, then came back and leveled to v10. When they extended the level cap to v12, I rushed and got that done. During this time I leveled my horse's stats to fully capped, researched my crafting in all 8/9 traits of everything, earned 10,000 achievement points, and competed well in pvp.

Enter Update 6 in early 2015. At this period, real life only allotted me the time to log on and play 1-2 hours per day. This update included the Champion Point System and the Justice System, all in one. Because I didn't have much time to play the game, I spent my time online perfecting my Justice System techniques (currently 800,000+ gold towards my Black Market Mogul), which unfortunately doesn't do much towards the CP system; not much XP for stealing and fencing goods. I was already v14 at the time, and had completed the majority of quests in the game. I did not have the chance to increase my CP by leveling like others who were lower-level than me did.

By the time Update 7 (v2.1) came out at this time last year, I hurried to v16 but remained well below the curve in CP, noticing a significant disadvantage in Cyrodiil. Still not able to invest the time to grind for points, I was simply left in the dust after dedicating the time it took to level in this game.

Fast-forward to version 2.4 and the removal of Vet Ranks. At that time I had been was level v16 for a good 10-months, but with only 330ish CPs. A friend of mine who I play with was v9 with well over 400CP because he was able to level during the CP system implementation (something I was not able to do). When this patch had launched, he was instantly thrust to a higher "level" than I was, eventhough I had gained a significant amount more XP than him throughout my time playing the game.

This woe-is-me story aside, with the way the CP system is currently, I can only vision calamity when the cap is raised. Not only will it widen the gap of those who have more from those who are just now making it to 160CP, but it will worsen the problems pvp is already facing. Currently, the majority of players add their Champion Points into passives to do more damage, maxing out those CP trees that do so. With all that maximum extra damage, the healing done and healing received in Cyrodiil is still completely outrageous. Plus, with all the points maxed in damage already, the only option when the cap is raised is to add points into even more healing and healing received, likely making it impossible to cause enough damage to a healing class.

Maybe it is just me, but I did not see a problem with the Vet Ranks, but I certainly see a problem with the current CP system.

Unsent.Soul

I don't see any issue with the CP system, I look at it like diablo 3's paragon point system. Leveling 1 toon to v16 waant bad, 4 or 5 toons to v16 and I hate everything to do with the game. I spent too much time grinding to vet 16 instead of enjoying the game.

Ffastyl

Competitive games require a minimum power gap between players to allow skill as the defining factor. ESO has a progressively increasing power gap, exacerbated by Champion Points, that worsens competitive play. Try Azura's Star. The lack of Champion Points makes a marked difference, one that can ruin builds in Trueflame and Haderus.

The cap is being raised by 30 in Update 11. The power creep is being slowed by Developers deliberating maintaining the cap, but something has to be done about the power gap -- something has to be nerfed.

dwtdwtdwt

Ffastyl wrote: »

Try Azura's Star. The lack of Champion Points makes a marked difference, one that can ruin builds in Trueflame and Haderus.

I do and I love it. I find AZ to be highly competitive, and I do well in that campaign. But the low population is unsettling.

JakelDK

yes. yes it is

LorDrek

Is the same system with other name.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

LorDrek wrote: »

Is the same system with other name.

Pretty much this. Oh it also has bigger numbers and is account wide.

DPG76

Hi , I don't think there's a significant change with the old system (veteran) basicly it's just a number displayed on your character but nothing really changed in that . At level 50 you get to earn CP like before its only the vet rank isn't displayed anymore . Only BIG CHANGE is that you receive the additional attribute points and skill points you would earn to get to veteran 16 in your run from level 1 to 50 .
So at lvl 50 you 'll have 65 attribute points and the skillpoints you'd earn at level veteran 16

For pvp it does matter but there's a non CP campaign

I can be wrong on this , but for me there's not so big difference or changes .

NewBlacksmurf

Technically you're still playing the VR system so the only change really was making it account based.

If you don't like it now, you didn't like it previously (unless it's the account progress that you dislike)

AlnilamE

YMMV, really.

I think the biggest thing about the champion system is that it's easier to level alts. All you need is get them to 50 and then get enough skill points for what they need and voilà!

dwtdwtdwt wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

Try Azura's Star. The lack of Champion Points makes a marked difference, one that can ruin builds in Trueflame and Haderus.

I do and I love it. I find AZ to be highly competitive, and I do well in that campaign. But the low population is unsettling.

The Master Gatherer passive doesn't work in Azura's, and that's the main reason I don't go there. :-P

dwtdwtdwt

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Technically you're still playing the VR system so the only change really was making it account based.

If you don't like it now, you didn't like it previously (unless it's the account progress that you dislike)

It is true that I am opposed to the account-wide progress. It is just my opinion that in an RPG, a player should get immersed into a single character as opposed to a half dozen alts who are instantly equal in level. But that is not the point I was trying to make in this post.

DeepPlayGamer wrote: »

At level 50 you get to earn CP like before its only the vet rank isn't displayed anymore . Only BIG CHANGE is that you receive the additional attribute points and skill points you would earn to get to veteran 16 in your run from level 1 to 50 .
So at lvl 50 you 'll have 65 attribute points and the skillpoints you'd earn at level veteran 16

Not sure if you read my post, but i was already v14 when the CP system was implemented. I did not have the chance to level from 50 through the veteran ranks earning CP. But thanks for your input.

NewBlacksmurf

dwtdwtdwt wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Technically you're still playing the VR system so the only change really was making it account based.

If you don't like it now, you didn't like it previously (unless it's the account progress that you dislike)

It is true that I am opposed to the account-wide progress. It is just my opinion that in an RPG, a player should get immersed into a single character as opposed to a half dozen alts who are instantly equal in level. But that is not the point I was trying to make in this post.

DeepPlayGamer wrote: »

At level 50 you get to earn CP like before its only the vet rank isn't displayed anymore . Only BIG CHANGE is that you receive the additional attribute points and skill points you would earn to get to veteran 16 in your run from level 1 to 50 .
So at lvl 50 you 'll have 65 attribute points and the skillpoints you'd earn at level veteran 16

Not sure if you read my post, but i was already v14 when the CP system was implemented. I did not have the chance to level from 50 through the veteran ranks earning CP. But thanks for your input.

@dwtdwtdwt

Hmmm I think you're going to be disappointed then because the RPG game is set on a MMO server type therefore the intent is not to be solo and exclusive for progress.
Perhaps if there was no VR or CP this would better work for you.....I personally don't like either because ZOS is trying to make CP a level when it's not and cannot be by design

Maybe one day they'll go back to character levels only and leave CP as nothing more than Passives as they were intended to be

josefcifkaeb17_ESO

Leveling up Veteran ranks was a drag... I finished all alliance map quests/bosses/anchors/delves, I finished every available DLC soloable content + group bosses and public dungeons and was still only Vet 13. Since I refuse to grind, reaching Vet 16 was almost impossible for me. The CP system is much more rewarding and goes much better with the content leveling curve.

newtinmpls

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Technically you're still playing the VR system so the only change really was making it account based.

Huge difference.

Before, each and every one of my characters had to go through every level.

Now, if any character has lvl 50 & 160 CP, any "next" character who gets to lvl 50 is instantly "vet 16".

I miss the actual progression

Shadesofkin

Personally I believe it's better, even if it's not quite what I envisioned.

NewBlacksmurf

newtinmpls wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Technically you're still playing the VR system so the only change really was making it account based.

Huge difference.

Before, each and every one of my characters had to go through every level.

Now, if any character has lvl 50 & 160 CP, any "next" character who gets to lvl 50 is instantly "vet 16".

I miss the actual progression

@newtinmpls
It's a minor difference, it's definately not huge.
Consider the only ones who feel there is a huge difference are those who want to have multiple characters above 50 who don't do skill point quests and only use the gear and base stat and skill points.

Consider that less than 5% (estimated guess) of all players on all platforms have actually done all the content on all their alts, it's silly.

Point being this....getting to wear CP160 stuff after level 49 matters not if you still have to play the rest of the content over and over again.

A huge difference would be if the silver, gold, and DLC didn't have to be repeated and had an option to skip on any alt to obtain the skill points from that content.


That's not the case so it's not as huge as you make it out

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

YES. maybe not so for a first character. but for anyone interested in multiple endgame builds on different toons its MUCH MUCH better. million% better

as a person with three early vet alts that i gave up on at different times, which all became instantly max level endgame toons shaving off months of grinding content ive already tired out. best thing ever.

they rolled it out poorly, but with the catch up mechanic I dont see any problems. i take breaks for months at a time and still reached the cp cap. + once your around 350+ you have a slight disadvantage but not so much that you auto loose, good players will be fine there.

now if you were to ask if the the specific content in the cp tree is a good implementation thats another discussion.Also they should have introduced a cap right form the start so they could control progression.

Elsonso

LorDrek wrote: »

Is the same system with other name.

Pretty much. The Champion System allows customization of benefits, is account wide, and can be used by low level characters on the account, but in all the really important ways, it is the same. Gear and difficulty are still tied to a Rank.

Uriel_Nocturne

Meh.

I rather preferred the VR system, at least then I had the illusion of progressing further at end-game. Now, when I get a new CP... it just doesn't feel like anything has changed.

Before the trolls jump all over this; I'm at CP459, have a full stable of eight (8) characters, and had them all at various levels of Vet Ranks before the change that accompanied the Dark Brotherhood release.

I'm a PvE only player, and I really did not mind at all at working each character through the Vet Ranks. It has long been my opinion that the change from the vertical progression of VR, to the horizontal progression of the CP-only system was simply to placate impatient PvP kids.

While I've heard plenty of people who both steadfastly agree with me, and those who vehemently disagree with me (and I'll hear more from both sides, guaranteed), the fact that it's here... it is what it is.

It's really just the VR wrapped in a different skin, made account wide, and throwing a halt on forward progression in favor of horizontal progression.

But nothing better is even hinted at being in the works, even though many other MMORPG's utilize much better end-game level progression methods, there's nothing in the works.

So; I'm simply "Meh" about it and I just play the game. But the CP-only system is no better than the VR system. Just a different name tacked on to placate the very vocal minority.

Eteson24

Soooooo much better. Especially for those that were bewteen VR2 - VR10.

I basically couldn't play half of the game because I didn't want to grind. To anyone who had multiple characters at V16....you the real MVP.

Also, to whoever thought of the idea to remove Vet ranks....you also the real MVP.

Kalifas

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

YES. maybe not so for a first character. but for anyone interested in multiple endgame builds on different toons its MUCH MUCH better. million% better

as a person with three early vet alts that i gave up on at different times, which all became instantly max level endgame toons shaving off months of grinding content ive already tired out. best thing ever.

they rolled it out poorly, but with the catch up mechanic I dont see any problems. i take breaks for months at a time and still reached the cp cap. + once your around 350+ you have a slight disadvantage but not so much that you auto loose, good players will be fine there.

now if you were to ask if the the specific content in the cp tree is a good implementation thats another discussion.Also they should have introduced a cap right form the start so they could control progression.

Yes and no.

Yes because there is not enough unique content per character to justify leveling alternate characters, passives and flavor does not cut it. And since champion points are global attributes and not class/character specific an account wide system makes sense.

No because champion points they are being treated like levels. A system built for trying multiple builds would be a class/character specific champion system where you can switch classes on the fly on one character outside combat, with saved champion point sets for altering builds, 3 saved gear sets per class during that change, as well as all slotted skills changing according to the class you are currently on. The Champion Points would go into skill specific morphs like changing the effect completely or altering the % of an effect a skill does.

zyk

Ugh. Another person who made the decision to play a progression based game and then complains about progression elements.

If you don't have time for an RPG, please do not play one.

newtinmpls

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

That's not the case so it's not as huge as you make it out

To me it's huge.... all the various items/drops/weapons/sets that happened between Vet 1 and vet 15 - all gone for me now. I loved the necropotence set, sorc is my favorite class, and unless and until they create CP 160 versions of it - nothing.

Now there is no sense of progression on any "next CP character" once you have leveled the first one to CP max [tm]. They just magically jump to max.

I really really really dislike this, and it's a huge difference in that now vet levels 1 to "less than max" don't really exist any more.

dwtdwtdwt

zyk wrote: »

Ugh. Another person who made the decision to play a progression based game and then complains about progression elements.

If you don't have time for an RPG, please do not play one.

Ugh. Another no-lifer who has an elitist attitude about the game he plays.

The Vet Ranks was the progression-based game I decided to play, and was for the first two years. It is only recently that the CP system fully took over, therefore making the progress elements a relative discussion. I have no issues with a progression-based game; I said so in my post. CP "progression", with caps, gaps, and the way it was developed and rolled out just isn't what the Vet Ranks were. It's my opinion, as well as the opinion of others, which is why it is posted in this type of forum.

NewBlacksmurf

newtinmpls wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

That's not the case so it's not as huge as you make it out

To me it's huge.... all the various items/drops/weapons/sets that happened between Vet 1 and vet 15 - all gone for me now. I loved the necropotence set, sorc is my favorite class, and unless and until they create CP 160 versions of it - nothing.

Now there is no sense of progression on any "next CP character" once you have leveled the first one to CP max [tm]. They just magically jump to max.

I really really really dislike this, and it's a huge difference in that now vet levels 1 to "less than max" don't really exist any more.

@newtinmpls
And all that stuff will be right back in a month to 3 months.
Some is on PTS now

SickDuck

I believe the correct question is 'Is Champion system alone better than CP+veteran ranks?'.

Yes it is!

vyrusb23

My opinon:

I hate the champion point system. I like the traditional mmo leveling system. I would have much rather seen veteran ranks increased (and thus character point and skill point increases). I don't mind leveling characters. I also don't have 8 different characters. I prefer having one or two characters that I have a lot of time invested in as opposed to 10 characters that I have leveled ultra fast.

zyk

dwtdwtdwt wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Ugh. Another person who made the decision to play a progression based game and then complains about progression elements.

If you don't have time for an RPG, please do not play one.

Ugh. Another no-lifer who has an elitist attitude about the game he plays.

The Vet Ranks was the progression-based game I decided to play, and was for the first two years. It is only recently that the CP system fully took over, therefore making the progress elements a relative discussion. I have no issues with a progression-based game; I said so in my post. CP "progression", with caps, gaps, and the way it was developed and rolled out just isn't what the Vet Ranks were. It's my opinion, as well as the opinion of others, which is why it is posted in this type of forum.

The only reason you prefer the VR system is because it had been stagnant since 2.1 because of the transition to the CP system. Your issues would be exactly the same had the CP system not been introduced and the VR cap had been increased during this same period.

The expectation in an MMORPG should be that if you stop playing for long periods of time, you may temporarily fall behind. Lucky for you. ESO features catch-up mechanisms that make this easy to do.

Those who are not at the cap already only have themselves to blame for how they decide to spend their time. An ultra casual player with only a few hours to play per week can realistically be at CP cap by now.

Darkonflare15

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Meh.

I rather preferred the VR system, at least then I had the illusion of progressing further at end-game. Now, when I get a new CP... it just doesn't feel like anything has changed.

Before the trolls jump all over this; I'm at CP459, have a full stable of eight (8) characters, and had them all at various levels of Vet Ranks before the change that accompanied the Dark Brotherhood release.

I'm a PvE only player, and I really did not mind at all at working each character through the Vet Ranks. It has long been my opinion that the change from the vertical progression of VR, to the horizontal progression of the CP-only system was simply to placate impatient PvP kids.

While I've heard plenty of people who both steadfastly agree with me, and those who vehemently disagree with me (and I'll hear more from both sides, guaranteed), the fact that it's here... it is what it is.

It's really just the VR wrapped in a different skin, made account wide, and throwing a halt on forward progression in favor of horizontal progression.

But nothing better is even hinted at being in the works, even though many other MMORPG's utilize much better end-game level progression methods, there's nothing in the works.

So; I'm simply "Meh" about it and I just play the game. But the CP-only system is no better than the VR system. Just a different name tacked on to placate the very vocal minority.

I would not call the champion system horizontal progression. It more of a vertical progression that allows more customization. The actual Vet system is just a small stat increase that later on added attribute points that gave people the false appearance of a level that only locked people out of content. While the champion system gives a attribute stat increase with the option to put points into stuff that you never had control of before. There is more vertical progression in the champion system than ever was in the vet system. Plus the Vet system been stuck at Vet 16 for so long that there was no progression anyway.

Humatiel

Why on earth would anyone enjoy grinding? My account has ~260M experience on it from the forced grind of different characters and it was a miserable process. This allows me to get into the game I want (pve/pvp) and not deal with the ten million quests that involve "run to point A, kill X, run back to start...hoozah"

vyrusb23

Humatiel wrote: »

Why on earth would anyone enjoy grinding? My account has ~260M experience on it from the forced grind of different characters and it was a miserable process. This allows me to get into the game I want (pve/pvp) and not deal with the ten million quests that involve "run to point A, kill X, run back to start...hoozah"

Almost every MMO in the history of MMOs has or has had a "grind" to them. Questing is a traditional part of most MMOs. I've always hated the word "grinding". I don't consider playing the game grinding. Even when it's content that I've done before.

Why on earth would anyone play a video game if they are miserable doing it?