Free the Gap Closers from their Ban...

danno8 · July 2016

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

SolarCat02 wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

***. Does this mean ill get banned for trying to use the Dungeon Finder?

Only if you use a gap closer to jump ahead in the queue line.

a.k.a. Of course not. It's against the rules of the game to use bugs/features/exploits to circumvent game mechanics. Especially if it impacts the gameplay of others, such as PvP or leaderboards or the game economy.

Well it is a known issue that people in groups get dungeons faster then those solo. So i always group up first. I would think anyone like me doing the same, is taking advantage of a known bug to abuse game mechanics. And it certainly affects others since they have to wait longer, since my 2 dps group will get matched before all those solo dpsers.

If you are going to make an analogy to another game mechanic, at least use one that is an actual bug and not a valid game system doing what it is suppose to. Your attempt to set up the dungeon finder as a strawman for the gap closer problem is something my 3-year old can see through.

Molag_Crow · July 2016

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Molag_Crow wrote: »

I doubt more than 2 people were banned for using gap-closers to get up on keep walls.

Hello Crow

Jessica or Gina said to report all those that were seen using it. Maybe it's just them trying to look like they're taking action but we know that enough reports on someone directly lead to a ban without any investigation.

Hello!

I saw something about that but then I also thought that maybe they're saying that to scare players from trying it, but the problem is, anyone can do it, even by mistake.

If a player (even a level 10) stands at the ground level of a keep's front gate and looks up, aims their cursor at an NPC standing on the wall then presses Ambush, it'll put them up on the wall, no shady exploit-like deal going on, just purely pressing an ability.

I'm totally against it as anyone can tell from my topic here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/276921/gap-closers-up-walls-gg#latest

But perma-banning players for doing it is extreme in my opinion.

Sallington · July 2016

Vipstaakki wrote: »

How can you blame ZOS for your own actions? They have made it known gap closers are not alright. But YOU choose to use them nonetheless.

How would anyone that doesn't use the forums regularly know that gap closing into keeps is banned? It's not like they have to circumvent any game mechanics to achieve this, it's extremely easy to do. So easy that I've done it by accident. Banning people because they couldn't fix what was brought up to them numerous times on the PTS is f'ing ridiculous.

SolarCat02 · July 2016

Molag_Crow wrote: »

But perma-banning players for doing it is extreme in my opinion.

I highly doubt they're permanent, probably just three day suspensions again.

Cuyler · July 2016

Who was banned?

Was it some noob who didn't know an ambush from a dragon leap? or was it a member of an emp group who knowingly exploited a bug to gain an advantage well knowing the practice was deemed an exploit AND boasted about it on the forums?

RIP faith in the ESO community

Heishi · July 2016

As a person who hasn't really kept up on forum news lately, let me just say this one strike your banned thing if true is bs. I actually had no idea this was even an issue since I don't do pvp. I did notice in ww form I could pounce mobs up on rocks.

However considering they change how mechanics work every other month I assumed hey it's a ww and jumps high now. I've used a number of other gap closers (on mobs), but never really with any significant height difference, so it all seemed normal to me.

Those who have been here a while may remember that a lot of the gap closers used to work this way to begin with as long the height was within the attack range. Why would anyone think they didn't maybe decide to go back to this for some reason to balance out something else?

This would be like if they screwed up AoE and you could suddenly hit unlimited numbers of enemies. Would you really be expected to stop using every AoE in the game or be subject to ban because they screwed up?

Every time they "rebalance" classes it's because something was over or under powered meaning it wasn't working how it should, are these all bannable as exploits? All the early DK/Vamp/Emperor catastrophes?

Also people quoting and pulling out the TOS is as weak of a defense as the TOS itself. I've read the TOS and EULA. They basically just say you are volunteering to play the game, you have no rights in regards to playing the game because like the game master in coldharbour, they can change the rules as they see fit.

It states how nothing is their fault, if they put out a bug that blew up everyone's processors, not their responsibility. Basically it's a very long document to say "We can do what we want, if you don't like it remember you are not obligated to play"

Edit: As a side note, I think what should happen is if someone is caught using it in a way to "cheat" they should be warned the first time in case they didn't know it was a exploit. After that, sure.

Mureel · July 2016

Orchish wrote: »

Disgusting that players can be banned for simply using their gap closers. If this was not intended then you should not release it like this when it was reported on the PTS.

Also do you really think that every single ESO player reads these forums? How on earth are those that do not come here supposed to know that they can actually be banned for gap closing onto a wall? This is a mess.

lol ZOSLogic.

Judas Helviaryn · July 2016

Alright lets get one thing clear, ZOS does not discuss disciplinary actions with anyone but the one being disciplined. That means we're only getting this information from the people who were banned, and ZOS cannot confirm or deny, due to contract.

I don't believe anyone would be outright banned for just gap closing, and I'm not about to trust the word of someone who ZOS has deemed worthy of one.

Would you?

Sunburnt_Penguin · July 2016

Molag_Crow wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Molag_Crow wrote: »

I doubt more than 2 people were banned for using gap-closers to get up on keep walls.

Hello Crow

Jessica or Gina said to report all those that were seen using it. Maybe it's just them trying to look like they're taking action but we know that enough reports on someone directly lead to a ban without any investigation.

Hello! I saw something about that but then I also thought that maybe they're saying that to scare players from trying it, but the problem is, anyone can do it, even by mistake.

If a player (even a level 10) stands at the ground level of a keep's front gate and looks up, aims their cursor at an NPC standing on the wall then presses Ambush, it'll put them up on the wall, no shady exploit-like deal going on, just purely pressing an ability.

I'm totally against it as anyone can tell from my topic here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/276921/gap-closers-up-walls-gg#latest

But perma-banning players for doing it is extreme in my opinion.

Ah yeah, I remember you saying that the other night.

ZOS should just remove their ability to shuffle for a week tbh.

Mureel · July 2016

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

Alright lets get one thing clear, ZOS does not discuss disciplinary actions with anyone but the one being disciplined. That means we're only getting this information from the people who were banned, and ZOS cannot confirm or deny, due to contract.

I don't believe anyone would be outright banned for just gap closing, and I'm not about to trust the word of someone who ZOS has deemed worthy of one.

Would you?

Yes 100%! They haven't lied right to my face yet whereas ZOS has a history of being sneaky.

Sharee · July 2016

Mureel wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

Alright lets get one thing clear, ZOS does not discuss disciplinary actions with anyone but the one being disciplined. That means we're only getting this information from the people who were banned, and ZOS cannot confirm or deny, due to contract.

I don't believe anyone would be outright banned for just gap closing, and I'm not about to trust the word of someone who ZOS has deemed worthy of one.

Would you?

Yes 100%! They haven't lied right to my face yet whereas ZOS has a history of being sneaky.

They just cheated right to your face. I guess that makes them more trustworthy.

Judas Helviaryn · July 2016

Mureel wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

Alright lets get one thing clear, ZOS does not discuss disciplinary actions with anyone but the one being disciplined. That means we're only getting this information from the people who were banned, and ZOS cannot confirm or deny, due to contract.

I don't believe anyone would be outright banned for just gap closing, and I'm not about to trust the word of someone who ZOS has deemed worthy of one.

Would you?

Yes 100%! They haven't lied right to my face yet whereas ZOS has a history of being sneaky.

If these are permanent bans like people say, ZOS is taking a chance at that player just giving up and moving to another game, rather than buying a new account.

ZOS is potentially losing revenue by banning these people. Think about that for a second

Money grubbing ZO$.
Master of the cash shop.

If you don't trust their morals, trust their hunger for profit. These people did more than "just" exploit into a keep.

Haquor · July 2016

Orchish wrote: »

Disgusting that players can be banned for simply using their gap closers. If this was not intended then you should not release it like this when it was reported on the PTS.

Also do you really think that every single ESO player reads these forums? How on earth are those that do not come here supposed to know that they can actually be banned for gap closing onto a wall? This is a mess.

Are you kidding me?!

If by 'simply using thier gap closers' you are refering to deliberatley positioning themselves at the base of a wall or keep, targeting someone above them with the intent of bypassing the intended game mechanic of sieging by entering an intact keep and then executing the gap closer.... then just stop. Just...stop.

Yes the fact you can gap close into keeps is broken. Im sure if they knew how to fix it they would (turns out they are useless). But it has been stated it is an exploit. Clealry. It is not indended.

Dont for a second try and justify it by saying that people partaking in this crap were oblivious to the fact that itwas an exploit of a acknowledged broken/bugged mechanic. They knew what they were doing and a break from game is getting off easy as far as im concerned.

Vercingetorix · July 2016

Orchish wrote: »

Disgusting that players can be banned for simply using their gap closers. If this was not intended then you should not release it like this when it was reported on the PTS.

Also do you really think that every single ESO player reads these forums? How on earth are those that do not come here supposed to know that they can actually be banned for gap closing onto a wall? This is a mess.

I suppose you are one of those people that also needs a sign at every red light telling you it is illegal to cross it, then argue to the officer that a lack of a sign there means you can ignore the red light...ffs. Some things are implied by design, folks.

Jaronking · July 2016

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

Alright lets get one thing clear, ZOS does not discuss disciplinary actions with anyone but the one being disciplined. That means we're only getting this information from the people who were banned, and ZOS cannot confirm or deny, due to contract.

I don't believe anyone would be outright banned for just gap closing, and I'm not about to trust the word of someone who ZOS has deemed worthy of one.

Would you?

I would trust them because ZOS has a history of banning people unjustifiable and later on admitting it was their mistake.Something was wrong with their scanning system.So I usually don't take ZOS word on things.

SteveCampsOut · July 2016

SolarCat02 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

SolarCat02 wrote: »

I am happy to hear there are bans for this.
Yes, ZOS should have fixed it before it went live, but the people using the bug to glitch into keeps also knew it's wrong without anyone telling them. Just like the people who used the survey glitch knew. It's not that nobody knew it was wrong, just that they didn't think they would be punished for it, given past history. I am glad Zenimax is taking baby steps to change that impression.

Let me share a real life allegory of my thinking on this. Yes, this is a true, ongoing story.

My work recently added a clear glass window to the ladies room where I work. It's in a high traffic hallway area, and from the doorway exiting the stairwell it offers a perfect view of the spot women stand to adjust things in the full length mirror before leaving the bathroom.

Should management have thoroughly investigated the implications before adding the window? Yes.
You will still get fired for staring.

Someone at your company is losing a job.

Just... like wow, glass windows to a rest room... That's dumb before you even check if shows something it shouldn't.

It's a poorly-enacted "safety initiative" and anything taped over the window gets pulled down. I have started walking to the building next door instead.

The men's room doesn't have one, by the way. It's also more out-of-the-way, and has about three times as much traffic.

It's a harassment lawsuit waiting to happen.

I really want to put up a sign - "In recognition of your efforts, companyname has instituted a new employee benefit. FREE PEEP SHOW!!!"
But I would rather keep my job. I don't think they would appreciate my artistic expression.

Screw Harassment! I'd say every single employee there has grounds for a law suit against the company for creating a hostile work environment for both the men and the women! We're talking Class Action!

Turelus · July 2016

Molag_Crow wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Molag_Crow wrote: »

I doubt more than 2 people were banned for using gap-closers to get up on keep walls.

Hello Crow

Jessica or Gina said to report all those that were seen using it. Maybe it's just them trying to look like they're taking action but we know that enough reports on someone directly lead to a ban without any investigation.

Hello! I saw something about that but then I also thought that maybe they're saying that to scare players from trying it, but the problem is, anyone can do it, even by mistake.

If a player (even a level 10) stands at the ground level of a keep's front gate and looks up, aims their cursor at an NPC standing on the wall then presses Ambush, it'll put them up on the wall, no shady exploit-like deal going on, just purely pressing an ability.

I'm totally against it as anyone can tell from my topic here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/276921/gap-closers-up-walls-gg#latest

But perma-banning players for doing it is extreme in my opinion.

If you have done it by mistake, jump off the keep to the outside again and make a show you're not abusing it. Capturing the keep or running around killing everyone after using it isn't going to make it look accidental.

Also I agree people using other exploits and 3rd party programs should be banned and ZOS should work on that, but for the first time in a long time they're making efforts to stamp out unfair play in Cyrodiil. This is a good thing for the game and they need to keep it up.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · July 2016

danno8 wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

SolarCat02 wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

***. Does this mean ill get banned for trying to use the Dungeon Finder?

Only if you use a gap closer to jump ahead in the queue line.

a.k.a. Of course not. It's against the rules of the game to use bugs/features/exploits to circumvent game mechanics. Especially if it impacts the gameplay of others, such as PvP or leaderboards or the game economy.

Well it is a known issue that people in groups get dungeons faster then those solo. So i always group up first. I would think anyone like me doing the same, is taking advantage of a known bug to abuse game mechanics. And it certainly affects others since they have to wait longer, since my 2 dps group will get matched before all those solo dpsers.

If you are going to make an analogy to another game mechanic, at least use one that is an actual bug and not a valid game system doing what it is suppose to. Your attempt to set up the dungeon finder as a strawman for the gap closer problem is something my 3-year old can see through.

So it is valid that if i queue in a group as 2 dps i should get in before the 2 solo dps in the queue before me?

Is it a valid game mechanic doing what it is suppose to do? Just to point out so is the gap closer. It is a valid game mechanic doing what it suppose to do. Close a gap.

Judas Helviaryn · July 2016

Jaronking wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

Alright lets get one thing clear, ZOS does not discuss disciplinary actions with anyone but the one being disciplined. That means we're only getting this information from the people who were banned, and ZOS cannot confirm or deny, due to contract.

I don't believe anyone would be outright banned for just gap closing, and I'm not about to trust the word of someone who ZOS has deemed worthy of one.

Would you?

I would trust them because ZOS has a history of banning people unjustifiable and later on admitting it was their mistake.Something was wrong with their scanning system.So I usually don't take ZOS word on things.

This is something I am unaware of. Would you do us a favor and cite your source? It would help greatly with the discussion.

Judas Helviaryn · July 2016

Turelus wrote: »

Molag_Crow wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Molag_Crow wrote: »

I doubt more than 2 people were banned for using gap-closers to get up on keep walls.

Hello Crow

Jessica or Gina said to report all those that were seen using it. Maybe it's just them trying to look like they're taking action but we know that enough reports on someone directly lead to a ban without any investigation.

Hello! I saw something about that but then I also thought that maybe they're saying that to scare players from trying it, but the problem is, anyone can do it, even by mistake.

If a player (even a level 10) stands at the ground level of a keep's front gate and looks up, aims their cursor at an NPC standing on the wall then presses Ambush, it'll put them up on the wall, no shady exploit-like deal going on, just purely pressing an ability.

I'm totally against it as anyone can tell from my topic here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/276921/gap-closers-up-walls-gg#latest

But perma-banning players for doing it is extreme in my opinion.

If you have done it by mistake, jump off the keep to the outside again and make a show you're not abusing it. Capturing the keep or running around killing everyone after using it isn't going to make it look accidental.

Also I agree people using other exploits and 3rd party programs should be banned and ZOS should work on that, but for the first time in a long time they're making efforts to stamp out unfair play in Cyrodiil. This is a good thing for the game and they need to keep it up.

Fixed that for you

Turelus · July 2016

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Molag_Crow wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Molag_Crow wrote: »

I doubt more than 2 people were banned for using gap-closers to get up on keep walls.

Hello Crow

Jessica or Gina said to report all those that were seen using it. Maybe it's just them trying to look like they're taking action but we know that enough reports on someone directly lead to a ban without any investigation.

Hello! I saw something about that but then I also thought that maybe they're saying that to scare players from trying it, but the problem is, anyone can do it, even by mistake.

If a player (even a level 10) stands at the ground level of a keep's front gate and looks up, aims their cursor at an NPC standing on the wall then presses Ambush, it'll put them up on the wall, no shady exploit-like deal going on, just purely pressing an ability.

I'm totally against it as anyone can tell from my topic here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/276921/gap-closers-up-walls-gg#latest

But perma-banning players for doing it is extreme in my opinion.

If you have done it by mistake, jump off the keep to the outside again and make a show you're not abusing it. Capturing the keep or running around killing everyone after using it isn't going to make it look accidental.

Also I agree people using other exploits and 3rd party programs should be banned and ZOS should work on that, but for the first time in a long time they're making efforts to stamp out unfair play in Cyrodiil. This is a good thing for the game and they need to keep it up.

Fixed that for you

hahaha yeah I went back and edited when I realised what I did. I am really bad for thinking ahead of my ability to type and as such using either the wrong words or missing words. The number of posts I need to go back and edit because I look like I have no idea how to actually read/write English.

SolarCat02 · July 2016

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

SolarCat02 wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

***. Does this mean ill get banned for trying to use the Dungeon Finder?

Only if you use a gap closer to jump ahead in the queue line.

a.k.a. Of course not. It's against the rules of the game to use bugs/features/exploits to circumvent game mechanics. Especially if it impacts the gameplay of others, such as PvP or leaderboards or the game economy.

Well it is a known issue that people in groups get dungeons faster then those solo. So i always group up first. I would think anyone like me doing the same, is taking advantage of a known bug to abuse game mechanics. And it certainly affects others since they have to wait longer, since my 2 dps group will get matched before all those solo dpsers.

If you are going to make an analogy to another game mechanic, at least use one that is an actual bug and not a valid game system doing what it is suppose to. Your attempt to set up the dungeon finder as a strawman for the gap closer problem is something my 3-year old can see through.

So it is valid that if i queue in a group as 2 dps i should get in before the 2 solo dps in the queue before me?

Is it a valid game mechanic doing what it is suppose to do? Just to point out so is the gap closer. It is a valid game mechanic doing what it suppose to do. Close a gap.

Dungeon Finder is to find a group to run a dungeon.

Gap closers are for closing gaps. It's not the using a gap closer and ending on top of the keep wall that is the bannable offense. That's a bug.
It's proceeding to use it to capture a keep from the inside out, without siege equipment, which doesn't set off the alert on the map for the other faction to defend.

Just like how falling through the map (when that was a thing) was a bug, but using that bug to easily harvest resource nodes was an exploit.

It's what you do with it after that determines your intentions.
With Dungeon Finder, you run a dungeon afterwards, and it's not a bannable offense because that is what it is for.
If you got a group of three friends to use Dungeon Finder so you could keep vote-kicking every poor DPS who waited their turn for an hour in queue just for kicks to troll, that would be an abuse of the system, because that's not what it's for.

Turelus · July 2016

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

SolarCat02 wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

***. Does this mean ill get banned for trying to use the Dungeon Finder?

Only if you use a gap closer to jump ahead in the queue line.

a.k.a. Of course not. It's against the rules of the game to use bugs/features/exploits to circumvent game mechanics. Especially if it impacts the gameplay of others, such as PvP or leaderboards or the game economy.

Well it is a known issue that people in groups get dungeons faster then those solo. So i always group up first. I would think anyone like me doing the same, is taking advantage of a known bug to abuse game mechanics. And it certainly affects others since they have to wait longer, since my 2 dps group will get matched before all those solo dpsers.

If you are going to make an analogy to another game mechanic, at least use one that is an actual bug and not a valid game system doing what it is suppose to. Your attempt to set up the dungeon finder as a strawman for the gap closer problem is something my 3-year old can see through.

So it is valid that if i queue in a group as 2 dps i should get in before the 2 solo dps in the queue before me?

Is it a valid game mechanic doing what it is suppose to do? Just to point out so is the gap closer. It is a valid game mechanic doing what it suppose to do. Close a gap.

I think that's not something you can avoid abusing because it's just you grouping with someone.

If it was something like having a specific item on, or having two skills slotted which moved you to the front of the queue every time then you changed these skills/items out once you were inside the dungeon that would be more of an exploit they could call people out for.

Jaronking · July 2016

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

Alright lets get one thing clear, ZOS does not discuss disciplinary actions with anyone but the one being disciplined. That means we're only getting this information from the people who were banned, and ZOS cannot confirm or deny, due to contract.

I don't believe anyone would be outright banned for just gap closing, and I'm not about to trust the word of someone who ZOS has deemed worthy of one.

Would you?

I would trust them because ZOS has a history of banning people unjustifiable and later on admitting it was their mistake.Something was wrong with their scanning system.So I usually don't take ZOS word on things.

This is something I am unaware of. Would you do us a favor and cite your source? It would help greatly with the discussion.

How many do you want I can post the login issue thread where players weren't able to login in with no information for why.A EU player @Andy22 made a whole thread about it.Well give me a bit I'll dig some up.

Robbmrp · July 2016

I would say lift the ban if the player meets the below conditions.

1- They did not use the exploit to gain an unfair advantage over other players and for gathering AP points. For example, an Emp dragon leaping up to keep walls and outposts knows full well that skill isn't intended to do that. So once is an accident, just like people find out about the "Ambush" through doors. Anything after that is DELIBERATE and should receive a ban no if's and or buts.

2- Researching this by Zenimax shows that the player doesn't continually use this so give them a temporary ban with a warning that any future reporting of this behavior will be enforced with a permanent ban.

Players who get banned for using exploits only have themselves to blame. They know what their skills are supposed to do, period. Just saying "It's ZOS fault for it being there" and taking no personal responsibility shouldn't be enough to remove a ban. It's time for people to take accountability for their actions.

Everyone wants their game play to be free from cheaters and exploiters. There's no room to cheat in this game. If players cannot play this game without cheating, then they deserve no mercy from Zenimax and players reporting them.

There are tons of people playing this game NOT using these exploits, why should we experience a toxic environment from people who want to exploit to win.....

Play the game as it's intended to be played or not at all.
<mic drop>

PurifedBladez · July 2016

Vipstaakki wrote: »

How can you blame ZOS for your own actions? They have made it known gap closers are not alright. But YOU choose to use them nonetheless.

Pvp without a gap closer? No.

Rohamad_Ali · July 2016

I haven't heard of anyone being banned ingame yet . Just the forums .

Thevorpal1 · July 2016

It's about time people had to suffer the consequences of their actions. The fact that they have handed out bans is a great deterent to keep people honest.

ZOS_PeterT · July 2016

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