State of the game: RNG and the BOP system

MrTarkanian48 · July 2016

I have played this game on PS4 exclusively since console launch. It obviously has some flaws, but I have looked past most if not all of them simply because of how much I enjoy the game. This was the first week, however, where a higher degree of disappointment is setting in.

It centers around a combination of RNG and the BOP system.

I have 6 CP 160 characters. 4 are Undaunted rank 9. They all have different roles between PVP builds, and various PVE tank/dps builds. 2-3 of which I would say are geared out to where I am happy with them. Most of these are made up of a combination of crafted sets, BOE PVP gear, a few BOP PVE gear pieces(Maelstrom weapons and Monster sets)

The rest of the stuff that I am looking for is all BOP PVE 5 set pieces including jewelry.

First one is Vicious Ophidian. I have run nSO 10 times this week and have zero VO drops. I'd say in all those runs I have acquired one piece of gear that I may or may not use, which is a Skirmisher Divines Belt. I also have 2 pieces of elegant (1 ring), not useful for me, but I may be able to make some gold off of it. At least 50% of drops that I have had are training or prosperous. Considering after 10 runs, with very few drops, and zero ideal drops, the thought of actually completing this 5 piece seems almost impossible, especially since when I actually do get a drop, the chances of it being an undesirable trait are so high. With VO being bind on Pickup, and not being able to justify running the trial hundreds of times, I will most likely abandon this option.

I also wanted to give Briarheart a shot. Considering it is BOP, and the epic jewelry only drops from Wrothgar dailies, I started running these on all 6 characters. After two days, I had zero Briarheart jewelry. These were also time consuming, as the quests involved killing world bosses which required a group. On several occasions, I would receive a blue non-set piece from these after waiting 20-30 minutes for enough people to take down the boss. After two days of this, I decided that CP 160 Briarheart is also almost unattainable.

I've also turned in countless numbers of undaunted keys. I can't even guess at how many Lord Warden, Bogdon, and Maw shoulders I have broken down. But in all these runs I have 2 bloodspawn shoulders, none in good traits. I have 3 kena shoulders, with only 1 in impen trait, zero divines.

I've also placed on the weekly trials leaderboards on many occasions, just to be rewarded with a highly anticipated Gold Defending Resto Staff of Alksosh, or Battle Axe of Twilights Remedy.

In everything I have done in this game, I would say the only BOP sets that I have been successfully able to complete and are in desired trait are a 2 pc. Nerien'eth combo, and I have been fortunate to get 3 out of 4 desired Maelstrom weapons in the ideal trait. I have never been able to complete a 5 pc. set.

The RNG in this game is getting unbearable. It was rough before, but now with the addition of Prosperous and Training trait it is gut-wrenching. Also I support the addition of weapon options on many of these sets, but it also waters down the RNG pool exponentially.

TLDR: @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Please consider improving the ability for people to get the gear they seek. At least make it so that it feels like and achievable goal. This could be done by implementing some or all of the following:

1) Eliminate Prosperous and Training trait from End-Game loot drops, and in combination bring back Impenetrable. (Perhaps leave Impen off the trials gear, like Viscious Ophidian, and Twilights, but bring it back for Monster sets, and things like Vipers, Skirmisher etc.)

2) Implement some logic into what weapons drop with certain sets. Stamina Based (Eliminate Staves), Magicka Based (Eliminate all but Staves, and 1H Swords)

3) Implement a token system which allows people to choose the item and trait of a set

4) Eliminate the BOP system on PVE items. What is the intended purpose of BOP, other than promoting insanity? All PVP gear is BOE, why is PVE gear BOP? High performing PVP players are able to obtain Gold PVP Jewelry and sell it at a premium. Shouldn't PVE players be able to make some gold off the drops they receive?

You guys really did some great things for this game with the DB patch. Improving RNG in these ways would be another huge step in the right direction.

DDuke · July 2016

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

1) Eliminate Prosperous and Training trait from End-Game loot drops, and in combination bring back Impenetrable. (Perhaps leave Impen off the trials gear, like Viscious Ophidian, and Twilights, but bring it back for Monster sets, and things like Vipers, Skirmisher etc.)

I dont see why impen shouldn't exist on trials gear, particularly when it's useful for PvP as well (e.g. Vicious Ophidian & Infallible Aether). Otherwise I agree.

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

2) Implement some logic into what weapons drop with certain sets. Stamina Based (Eliminate Staves), Magicka Based (Eliminate all but Staves, and 1H Swords)

Agreed.

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

3) Implement a token system which allows people to choose the item and trait of a set

Yup, agreed. Though it shouldn't apply to everything - some amount of RNG is still good, especially considering they're allowing trading between group members.

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

4) Eliminate the BOP system on PVE items. What is the intended purpose of BOP, other than promoting insanity? All PVP gear is BOE, why is PVE gear BOP? High performing PVP players are able to obtain Gold PVP Jewelry and sell it at a premium. Shouldn't PVE players be able to make some gold off the drops they receive?

You guys really did some great things for this game with the DB patch. Improving RNG in these ways would be another huge step in the right direction.

Hell no.

The purpose of BOP is to keep certain things exclusive, such as the Vicious Ophidian set. If you want it, go run veteran Sanctum Ophidia (not the easymode normal version). It's much faster to grind there - especially after they allow trading between group members next patch.

I don't want to buy/sell exclusive gear, I want to feel proud I was good & dedicated enough to attain that said gear.

Besides, there's already plenty of PvE sets to sell for PvErs (making 100k~/run in vSO by selling the golden jewelry) - things are in balance.

dpencil · July 2016

@MrTarkanian48 While I share your frustration, I believe the dev team has firmly made up their mind that RNG is here to stay. I made several posts and polls on this topic a while back and although the community response was almost unanimous in agreeing thay something should change, the devs have never directly responded.

What we have seen them do is things like add The Golden vendor in Cyrodil, make Undaunted chests drop shoulders more consistently, and work on vMA and Trials to guarantee desirable items from getting in the leaderboards. They also tried to make other traits more desirable, although why Prosperous and Training are in the loot table is just ZOS trolling us.

The latest addition of BoP trading in group is another move toward ZOS giving a small relief from RNG without fundamentally altering the system. I think whatever they do in the future will continue to follow this pattern.

Morimizo · July 2016

The BOP system is one of my least favorite aspects of this game, and something that has to be "put up with" rather than enjoyed; I suspect the only reason it is in place is to keep items within the confines of the DLC they are available, but I can't count how many times I've received items from the Wrothgar dailies that I don't want but I know I could sell to those who do. Heck, I'd be happy to just GIVE them away to guild members, ffs.

The poor traits can be solved by allowing master crafters to change traits, as detailed in many other threads. Hope this happens. That said, I do like the idea of a token system to allow players to choose the traits and/or weapon/armor types, especially for the grueling challenges like Maelstrom.

MrTarkanian48 · July 2016

@DDuke

Regarding Impenetrable trait on Trials gear. My only thought was that with the addition of the traits that are only applied during boss monster fights (Like Minor Slayer), many trials gear sets would probably be sub-optimal in PVP unless that wasted bonus is still outweighed by the 5pc set bonus advantage. That being said, I would rather them allow everything to drop in Impenetrable then allow nothing to drop in Impenetrable.

Regarding a token system. I am not sure which areas you would like to be excluded from a token system, so my agreement would depend on that. I agree that there needs to be some element of RNG, but the current system is broken. I wish I would have recorded how many times I have run WGT, and I have 3 pieces of SPC. One in Infused and two in Well-Fitted. I have also farmed ICP to lesser extent, for scathing mage, and I have 2 pieces, none optimal trait. Some of these sets are BiS sets IF they drop in the right trait. The odds of you getting 5 pieces with these traits is almost astronomical. There is no point in running a scathing mage build, if more than 1 piece is not divines. This is the kind of thing that leads me to just abandon this content eventually. I just can't justify running something over and over hundreds of times just to be disappointed. Even if they gave you 1 token per run, and 20 tokens allowed you to hand pick an item, it could take 100 runs to get a 5 piece. I don't think people are undeserving of said gear if they run the content 100 times, and at least it would seem like there was a light at the end of the tunnel. As you said though, the trading within groups may alleviate some of these things. Though I doubt many people will be willing to just hand over a divines piece of gear, especially since many people are farming the same sets.

I still stand by my opinion on BOP vs. BOE. I think that all items you pick up should be yours to sell if you wish. Yes this would mean that some less skilled players would have access to some high powered gear (if they could afford it), but they still wouldn't have all the titles and bragging rights. If eliminating BOP is an absolute non-option, at least limit it to only the most elite and newest gear, like trial sets and maelstrom weapons, and then lift the BOP once the next best thing comes out. But why is Briarheart still BOP from two DLC's ago. If some guy is farming Trinimac from daily quests, and gets a Briarheart Ring, let him put the thing on Guild Traders.

I guess I would agree with you on "earning" it, if that is the way the game was set up. A token system to me is "earning" it. The current system is just all luck of the draw.

I was fortunate and have 3 sharpened Maelstrom 2H's. I place on the leaderboards every time, but I am by no means the high score. I would estimate I have 40-50 vMA runs in.

I have seen streamers on twitch that have documented 100+ runs. All they want is a Sharpened 2H, but they still don't have it. Many of them have higher scores then I do.

Did I "earn" it anymore than they did?

This problem is exponentially worse when you are trying to assemble a 5pc set of perfect traits, vs. 1 piece Maelstrom weapon with perfect trait.

MrTarkanian48 · July 2016

dpencil wrote: »

@MrTarkanian48 While I share your frustration, I believe the dev team has firmly made up their mind that RNG is here to stay. I made several posts and polls on this topic a while back and although the community response was almost unanimous in agreeing thay something should change, the devs have never directly responded.

What we have seen them do is things like add The Golden vendor in Cyrodil, make Undaunted chests drop shoulders more consistently, and work on vMA and Trials to guarantee desirable items from getting in the leaderboards. They also tried to make other traits more desirable, although why Prosperous and Training are in the loot table is just ZOS trolling us.

The latest addition of BoP trading in group is another move toward ZOS giving a small relief from RNG without fundamentally altering the system. I think whatever they do in the future will continue to follow this pattern.

@dpencil

Thanks for your efforts in the past. I highly doubt my post will have any additional impact. I had never directly posted about this issue in the past, but lately its just really been changing my opinion of the game from a long term perspective.

I was equally excited when they seemed to be taking a step in the right direction with the change to Undaunted Chests. But to me it seems like its a 50% chance of getting Training and Prosperous. Maybe it is the troll factor that has me more frustrated than before. I think I preferred just not getting a drop, than opening up a prosperous/training item.

DDuke · July 2016

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

@DDuke

Regarding Impenetrable trait on Trials gear. My only thought was that with the addition of the traits that are only applied during boss monster fights (Like Minor Slayer), many trials gear sets would probably be sub-optimal in PVP unless that wasted bonus is still outweighed by the 5pc set bonus advantage. That being said, I would rather them allow everything to drop in Impenetrable then allow nothing to drop in Impenetrable.

Regarding a token system. I am not sure which areas you would like to be excluded from a token system, so my agreement would depend on that. I agree that there needs to be some element of RNG, but the current system is broken. I wish I would have recorded how many times I have run WGT, and I have 3 pieces of SPC. One in Infused and two in Well-Fitted. I have also farmed ICP to lesser extent, for scathing mage, and I have 2 pieces, none optimal trait. Some of these sets are BiS sets IF they drop in the right trait. The odds of you getting 5 pieces with these traits is almost astronomical. There is no point in running a scathing mage build, if more than 1 piece is not divines. This is the kind of thing that leads me to just abandon this content eventually. I just can't justify running something over and over hundreds of times just to be disappointed. Even if they gave you 1 token per run, and 20 tokens allowed you to hand pick an item, it could take 100 runs to get a 5 piece. I don't think people are undeserving of said gear if they run the content 100 times, and at least it would seem like there was a light at the end of the tunnel. As you said though, the trading within groups may alleviate some of these things. Though I doubt many people will be willing to just hand over a divines piece of gear, especially since many people are farming the same sets.

I still stand by my opinion on BOP vs. BOE. I think that all items you pick up should be yours to sell if you wish. Yes this would mean that some less skilled players would have access to some high powered gear (if they could afford it), but they still wouldn't have all the titles and bragging rights. If eliminating BOP is an absolute non-option, at least limit it to only the most elite and newest gear, like trial sets and maelstrom weapons, and then lift the BOP once the next best thing comes out. But why is Briarheart still BOP from two DLC's ago. If some guy is farming Trinimac from daily quests, and gets a Briarheart Ring, let him put the thing on Guild Traders.

I guess I would agree with you on "earning" it, if that is the way the game was set up. A token system to me is "earning" it. The current system is just all luck of the draw.

I was fortunate and have 3 sharpened Maelstrom 2H's. I place on the leaderboards every time, but I am by no means the high score. I would estimate I have 40-50 vMA runs in.

I have seen streamers on twitch that have documented 100+ runs. All they want is a Sharpened 2H, but they still don't have it. Many of them have higher scores then I do.

Did I "earn" it anymore than they did?

This problem is exponentially worse when you are trying to assemble a 5pc set of perfect traits, vs. 1 piece Maelstrom weapon with perfect trait.

vMSA is a perfect example where token system would fit right in, as long as the amount of tokens required to get certain piece of gear in certain trait is adequate. That is to say, it should still require some effort (or alternatively RNG).

Group content should be much more... tolerable next patch when it comes to RNG, as you'll be able to trade with group members. In 4-man content, this most of the time means 4x less RNG (4x is a lot) - in 12-man trials it means 12x less RNG. Still, I wouldn't say no to a token system atleast for some of the sets, (e.g. Briarheart etc in Wrothgar).

Morimizo · July 2016

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

@DDuke

I still stand by my opinion on BOP vs. BOE. I think that all items you pick up should be yours to sell if you wish. Yes this would mean that some less skilled players would have access to some high powered gear (if they could afford it), but they still wouldn't have all the titles and bragging rights. If eliminating BOP is an absolute non-option, at least limit it to only the most elite and newest gear, like trial sets and maelstrom weapons, and then lift the BOP once the next best thing comes out. But why is Briarheart still BOP from two DLC's ago. If some guy is farming Trinimac from daily quests, and gets a Briarheart Ring, let him put the thing on Guild Traders.

I guess I would agree with you on "earning" it, if that is the way the game was set up. A token system to me is "earning" it. The current system is just all luck of the draw.

I was fortunate and have 3 sharpened Maelstrom 2H's. I place on the leaderboards every time, but I am by no means the high score. I would estimate I have 40-50 vMA runs in.

I have seen streamers on twitch that have documented 100+ runs. All they want is a Sharpened 2H, but they still don't have it. Many of them have higher scores then I do.

Did I "earn" it anymore than they did?

I wish the devs would read this quoted section; it is spot-on analysis of the problem.

Also, my earlier supposition that they are "locking" certain items behind dlc is not true for TG and DB (where for instance the Sithis gear is BOE), so all I can surmise is that maybe they ARE in the process of eliminating at least some of the BOP model, but Wrothgar (and the aforementioned Trinimac's Valor, Pariah, and Briarheart sets) has not been brought up to the new standard yet.

Progress?

Reorx_Holybeard · July 2016

I couldn't agree more. I posted a detailed statistic analysis a while back on the effect of BoP and rare loot chance. Long story short...with ESO's population it is not unreasonable to find some people having to do 150-200 runs to get *one* item with a 5% loot chance.

In another loot related post someone mentioned that the current BoP is perfectly fair. In some ways they are right...everyone has a X% chance to loot that item. But in other ways it is perfectly *unfair*...one person might get their desired item in 1 run where another might take 20, and yet another 100, etc....

I think there is no problem with rare loot with BoE and it is actually good for the game. When I get a BoE item I don't need I can sell/trade it for another BoE item I do. BoP items are a little more complex as they usually represent a high-end item you are supposed to earn. Switching a rare BoP loot for a token system is the obvious solution here.

And the thing is the game *already* has several token systems which seem to work just fine: Alliance Points, Tel Var stones, and the various IC trophies. Tokens would also solve the trait issue...make all traits available, sell them at relevant prices (Divines is worth more than Training) and people can purchase what they want/need. Some sort of token system seem to be a win-win-win situation and I'm not why the game isn't moving towards them.

GreatWhite000 · July 2016

I am tired of getting rings in the last maelstrom chest. I shouldn't have to spend an hour in an arena and only have a sliver of a chance of getting a WEAPON with a good trait on it. I want a maelstrom 2h with sharpened and I just keep getting staffs with horrible traits.

Sounomi · July 2016

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

Regarding Impenetrable trait on Trials gear. My only thought was that with the addition of the traits that are only applied during boss monster fights (Like Minor Slayer), many trials gear sets would probably be sub-optimal in PVP unless that wasted bonus is still outweighed by the 5pc set bonus advantage.

A good number of the guards at enemy keeps may be considered bosses by the game, for what that's worth.

Elyu · July 2016

/signed

Rex-Umbra · July 2016

Really can't believe Wrothgar sets are still bop i really wantva set from the zone but not going to rng farm it endlessly especially when gear cap raise is not too far off.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · July 2016

I totally agree. at this point I feel like is pointless to even try gearing up, it will take way to log to get what you need and by then there will be more updates with more things you want but dont want to grind out.

its like they are afraid the only reason people play is a gear timesink. its not.
personally i play for pvp, and want to gear out to pvp. not grind content for 200 hrs and then have a bunch more sets i want released before i even finish.

people want to play and be competitive not mindlessly grind. at the very least we should be able to feel reasonable assured we can gear out before the next update, so we can play the newest expansion with previous expansions sets. wouldnt that be some common *** sense.

im really interested in the amberplasm. but if i have to do the dungeon 200 *** times whats the point. thats not fun. playing it a few times is fun, mastering it is fun, beating your best run can be fun. feeling like they are forcing you to grind it because they are scared you will leave as soon as you get that carrot is NOT FUN

good thing my mageplar is perfectly happy with 5kag 4magnus 3 willpower. gear you can reasonably acquire.

the only thing I disagree with is

"4) Eliminate the BOP system on PVE items. What is the intended purpose of BOP, other than promoting insanity? All PVP gear is BOE, why is PVE gear BOP? High performing PVP players are able to obtain Gold PVP Jewelry and sell it at a premium. Shouldn't PVE players be able to make some gold off the drops they receive?"

you have to play a tone for a whole month and be a good player to get the expensive gold drops and even then its still rng and you might get squat. thats not some easy thing pvp players just get + pve does have ( or at least used to) good boe gear that sells well. just depends on the timing. lots of us got rich doing raids and selling warlock/healer/footman etc all from endgame pve content.

over all they need to improve drop rates and make some common sense changes to weapon tables, having every stamina set in all three staffs etcetra constantly drop is the dumbest thing ive ever seen in a game. people quit when they are frustrated and annoyed not when they are happy they are acquiring what they want.
even if they made it really easy to gear out MANY people would still be grinding because they have 3 and even some up to 8 toons that they also want to gear

if it wasnt for the pvp i would have quit after 3 months because of this terrible fun draining system
just like i quit crafting after 8 traits because 9 is a huge pve walled timesink

rant\

redspecter23 · July 2016

You think RNG is bad now. The devs have already said they plan on raising the gear cap in the future, so get prepared to do it all again. I highly doubt I'll even finish my SPC set before I'm tasked with dumping that and refarming from scratch when the gear cap increases. I don't understand how a gear cap increase has any support among those that actively farm end game gear. Gear cap goes up. Dungeon cap goes up and you refarm the gear not to get better, but to hopefully break even with where you were before.

SanTii.92 · July 2016

redspecter23 wrote: »

You think RNG is bad now. The devs have already said they plan on raising the gear cap in the future, so get prepared to do it all again. I highly doubt I'll even finish my SPC set before I'm tasked with dumping that and refarming from scratch when the gear cap increases. I don't understand how a gear cap increase has any support among those that actively farm end game gear. Gear cap goes up. Dungeon cap goes up and you refarm the gear not to get better, but to hopefully break even with where you were before.

You known, if you are going to quote do it properly. Not some 'devs already said' bs.

bebynnag · July 2016

it took my 6 months but i got a full set of briarheart purple jewelry (2 robust, 1 healthy) from doing the delve a day on 3 characters.... i how (3 months later) have 2 full jewelry sets! (1 set of robust 1 healthy so i can switch as needed) i also have many many spares that i cany bring myself to sell ... ya know just in case!

redspecter23 · July 2016

sAnn92 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

You think RNG is bad now. The devs have already said they plan on raising the gear cap in the future, so get prepared to do it all again. I highly doubt I'll even finish my SPC set before I'm tasked with dumping that and refarming from scratch when the gear cap increases. I don't understand how a gear cap increase has any support among those that actively farm end game gear. Gear cap goes up. Dungeon cap goes up and you refarm the gear not to get better, but to hopefully break even with where you were before.

You known, if you are going to quote do it properly. Not some 'devs already said' bs.

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2016/05/10/dark-brotherhood-deep-dive-what-veteran-rank-removal-means-for-your-character

There you go, since you asked so nicely.

The part I'm referring to is clearly stated in the answer to question #2 of the FAQ near the bottom.