ESO Future for hardcore players
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Lucious90✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
False. Hardcore gamers still generate more profits for companies than casual gamers despite the changing demographics of gamers. I don't know where you got this information from, but its false.
My history in sales tells me one thing..... Repeat customers will ALWAYS buy more if you provide a good service.... New customers are great and can expand that, but always iffy on a product or company, but your repeat customers are your honeyhole
Internet works differently than a local shop - there are plenty of new customers out there, you have to cater for their first experience with you and a few follow ups - rest is not important - you will get enough new ones.
Not entirely, Consumer behavior is still generally the same be it Entertainment, Online, F2F sales.... Provide a good quality product, make the effort to provide great support after the Honeymoon phase, be proactive... You retain customers for longer... In ZOS case, introduce great costumes and other things within the crown store that I can spend a bit of cash in, I will feel more inclined to either subscribe or buy from the crown store. But introducing broken DLC after broken DLC with shallow content, and no way to keep me playing once I finish the content, isnt going to bring you any major customer satisfaction or profits because you need to keep spewing DLC just to keep them content...
This is something Wow did great in their xpac model. 1 pack every 1-2 years, loaded with content, and just hotfixed things that came up....
But see, that you experience TG and DB as shallow, is just how you see it - I and a lot of fans of those guilds think that those are amazing DLCs which delivered exactly what we expected from these guilds - a whole lot of fun doing this kind of stuff.
And no, internet is unlike a local shop - a local shop has a limited amount of potential customers and has to keep them - internet has practically an unlimited amount of customers and just has to push them through the profitable first experience phase, sell them a whole lot of convenience stuff and that's it - just keep them coming, not having to keep them - a principle like with a continuous flow water heater.
A few things....
I never said the content was bad, I actually very much enjoyed TG and DB.... But even others will say this as well, they where short.
You are correct about the potential in customers between a Brick and mortar store and Online..... Difference in potential customers is a big difference. BUT the theory to customer service is exactly the same which is where I was going with that.... Believe it or not, you need the long term customers their cash flow keeps your business afloat.... New customers add to it, but focusing on the new customers does nothing for you in terms of keeping competition, Wow developed a great loyal customer base because they put out a great product that hit the needs of a lot of people Pvp pve, causal hardcore and RP. And there is a reason why they lasted this long where almost any other game doesnt make it 5 years with their growth. There needs to be a balance in long term and new customersXbox/NA
Naturegoat - Stam Warden
Healgoat- Mag temp
Staticgoat- Stam Sorc2 -
Defilted✭✭✭✭✭
✭Would there be to much calls for Nerfs if there was a hardcore Dungeon settings that had improved gear?
So we would have
Normal
Hard (vet)
HarcoreXBOX NA
XBOX Series X
#NightmareBear0 -
Callous2208✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
False. Hardcore gamers still generate more profits for companies than casual gamers despite the changing demographics of gamers. I don't know where you got this information from, but its false.
My history in sales tells me one thing..... Repeat customers will ALWAYS buy more if you provide a good service.... New customers are great and can expand that, but always iffy on a product or company, but your repeat customers are your honeyhole
my point was only to highlight that hardcore competitive gamers are more profitable for companies than casual gamers. Casual gamers spend less time and money compared to hardcore competitive gamers. This is not my opinion its a gaming industry fact.
False. It is a fact that the majority of the overall gaming population is casual by definition. Hardcore is nothing but a niche demographic In modern gaming. This is why the market has moved to accommodate and please this massive number of customers. Give them something fun that they won't burn out on too fast or get frustrated and ragequit. Offer cosmetic items and quality of life updates to keep them satisfied and interested while new content is created. Release new content just when it seems they are losing interest and rope them back in. A billion casuals buying your product and all that comes along with it beats a handful of "hardcore" folks screaming at you for more content every week, and likely to jump ship at any moment regardless. That's not an opinion, that's a gaming industry fact.
Edit: The games that have tried to go the hardcore route in recent history, have one thing in common. They have failed spectacularly.Edited by Callous2208 on June 30, 2016 4:02PM0 -
Lucious90✭✭✭Would there be to much calls for Nerfs if there was a hardcore Dungeon settings that had improved gear?
So we would have
Normal
Hard (vet)
Harcore
If its done right and challenging no reason to nerf especially if its worth running for better gearXbox/NA
Naturegoat - Stam Warden
Healgoat- Mag temp
Staticgoat- Stam Sorc0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Would there be to much calls for Nerfs if there was a hardcore Dungeon settings that had improved gear?
So we would have
Normal
Hard (vet)
Harcore
the development for that is about equal - but there are a lot less people who would do this content - so such a DLC would have to be much more expensive, and I think, you guys would not want to pay what it would cost.0 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Oh Cadwells Silver and Gold.... Just allows me quest in other zones.... Where is the big end game raid that allows me to stop Daedric Legions from engulfing the world? Or a Dark Elf wizard necromancer trying to rule the world.. You get bits and peices of it through out the story line, but what after that? grinding profession and undaunted? They have the foundation for great end game content, but no execution
Yeah, see, that's what I thought the various Trials were. ESOs answer to the end-game raid. Twelve-man delves that also carried an air of competition about them. Bigger plots, tougher bosses, better gear... you know, end game stuff. All of which are being updated in the next DLC.
Perhaps I was mistaken, but the section I quoted seems to imply that you've forgotten they exist.
"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
False. Hardcore gamers still generate more profits for companies than casual gamers despite the changing demographics of gamers. I don't know where you got this information from, but its false.
My history in sales tells me one thing..... Repeat customers will ALWAYS buy more if you provide a good service.... New customers are great and can expand that, but always iffy on a product or company, but your repeat customers are your honeyhole
Internet works differently than a local shop - there are plenty of new customers out there, you have to cater for their first experience with you and a few follow ups - rest is not important - you will get enough new ones.
Not entirely, Consumer behavior is still generally the same be it Entertainment, Online, F2F sales.... Provide a good quality product, make the effort to provide great support after the Honeymoon phase, be proactive... You retain customers for longer... In ZOS case, introduce great costumes and other things within the crown store that I can spend a bit of cash in, I will feel more inclined to either subscribe or buy from the crown store. But introducing broken DLC after broken DLC with shallow content, and no way to keep me playing once I finish the content, isnt going to bring you any major customer satisfaction or profits because you need to keep spewing DLC just to keep them content...
This is something Wow did great in their xpac model. 1 pack every 1-2 years, loaded with content, and just hotfixed things that came up....
But see, that you experience TG and DB as shallow, is just how you see it - I and a lot of fans of those guilds think that those are amazing DLCs which delivered exactly what we expected from these guilds - a whole lot of fun doing this kind of stuff.
And no, internet is unlike a local shop - a local shop has a limited amount of potential customers and has to keep them - internet has practically an unlimited amount of customers and just has to push them through the profitable first experience phase, sell them a whole lot of convenience stuff and that's it - just keep them coming, not having to keep them - a principle like with a continuous flow water heater.
A few things....
I never said the content was bad, I actually very much enjoyed TG and DB.... But even others will say this as well, they where short.
You are correct about the potential in customers between a Brick and mortar store and Online..... Difference in potential customers is a big difference. BUT the theory to customer service is exactly the same which is where I was going with that.... Believe it or not, you need the long term customers their cash flow keeps your business afloat.... New customers add to it, but focusing on the new customers does nothing for you in terms of keeping competition, Wow developed a great loyal customer base because they put out a great product that hit the needs of a lot of people Pvp pve, causal hardcore and RP. And there is a reason why they lasted this long where almost any other game doesnt make it 5 years with their growth. There needs to be a balance in long term and new customers
In all games the long-term customers will die off over time - regardless how good the game is, at some point in time they will just swap over to other interests, because new things are more exciting than something you know and have done all of it already. They cannot be the focus - med-term customers are those, where the focus should be, with an emphasis on first experience and quick follow up sales - plus positive enthusiastic reviews from them as long as they are in the infatuation phase. This sells more and costs less - what equals to profit.0 -
Gothren✭✭✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
False. Hardcore gamers still generate more profits for companies than casual gamers despite the changing demographics of gamers. I don't know where you got this information from, but its false.
My history in sales tells me one thing..... Repeat customers will ALWAYS buy more if you provide a good service.... New customers are great and can expand that, but always iffy on a product or company, but your repeat customers are your honeyhole
my point was only to highlight that hardcore competitive gamers are more profitable for companies than casual gamers. Casual gamers spend less time and money compared to hardcore competitive gamers. This is not my opinion its a gaming industry fact.
no it isn't - I would like to see statistics about it.
Spending less time is a good thing, not a bad one - less drain on the servers.
And what about MMOs which do not have competitive players at all - like Second Life. They are highly profitable, spending about a million US$ every day in player interaction - real US dollars.
Im talking about the gaming industry as a whole. That includes everything from console games, pc gaming tablets, smartphones,etc. MMO's do have a competitive player base. Look at the market leader for consoles Sony PlayStation. Sony is number one in worldwide sales for its console. Its market position is dedicated to hardcore competitive gamers. Why? Because they generate the most profits compared to casual gamers. Nintendo capitalized on the growing trend in casual gamers around 2009, but has since lost market share to other platforms such as tablets, smartphones,etc that cater to the casual gamer segment. Sony's competitor, Microsoft, is also dedicated more to hardcore gamers and is right behind Sony when it comes to console sales.
Different companies cater to different segments within the gaming industry. This is why market leaders, such as Sony, specifically target hardcore competitive gamers more. They generate more sales. This is not say that there is not a market for casual gamers because there are. Companies like nintendo target casual gamers and build their brand image around that.0 -
Callous2208✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
lol, if you need a month to finish Thieves guild etc I don't know what you're doing, crawling at a snail pace or something? Seriously, that dlc took me 10 hours or so combined over a few days to complete playing very casually with my friend there. I might understand it if you logged in once a week or so, but that's it. And the game is super easy now, I can light attack my way through all the non-dlc open world content with only white/green trash items. Even my friend that doesn't like dungeons etc think that it's way too easy now. If you can't finish that easily then it's something wrong with you, not the game and you shouldn't be catered to just because you whine about how you need to think a tiny bit.
You assume a great deal here and misconstrue what I said. I beat the dlc's pretty quickly as well. I mean, when you're in Bis gear including Maelstrom weapons, everything comes pretty easy accept trials. Here's the thing though. I chose to finish the content quickly, and had a few days off to do so. My choice. Didn't come here to *** about it afterwards. Now I do the dailies for motif drops because I want to, complete the trials, and pvp. When the next content patch drops, I'll do it again. I don't expect them to cater to me, but I also am not angry that they've made most of the game accessible to people who aren't as skilled or have less time to play, like you and your friend.0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
False. Hardcore gamers still generate more profits for companies than casual gamers despite the changing demographics of gamers. I don't know where you got this information from, but its false.
My history in sales tells me one thing..... Repeat customers will ALWAYS buy more if you provide a good service.... New customers are great and can expand that, but always iffy on a product or company, but your repeat customers are your honeyhole
my point was only to highlight that hardcore competitive gamers are more profitable for companies than casual gamers. Casual gamers spend less time and money compared to hardcore competitive gamers. This is not my opinion its a gaming industry fact.
no it isn't - I would like to see statistics about it.
Spending less time is a good thing, not a bad one - less drain on the servers.
And what about MMOs which do not have competitive players at all - like Second Life. They are highly profitable, spending about a million US$ every day in player interaction - real US dollars.
Im talking about the gaming industry as a whole. That includes everything from console games, pc gaming tablets, smartphones,etc. MMO's do have a competitive player base. Look at the market leader for consoles Sony PlayStation. Sony is number one in worldwide sales for its console. Its market position is dedicated to hardcore competitive gamers. Why? Because they generate the most profits compared to casual gamers. Nintendo capitalized on the growing trend in casual gamers around 2009, but has since lost market share to other platforms such as tablets, smartphones,etc that cater to the casual gamer segment. Sony's competitor, Microsoft, is also dedicated more to hardcore gamers and is right behind Sony when it comes to console sales.
Different companies cater to different segments within the gaming industry. This is why market leaders, such as Sony, specifically target hardcore competitive gamers more. They generate more sales. This is not say that there is not a market for casual gamers because there are. Companies like nintendo target casual gamers and build their brand image around that.
and then there is second life - which is just a player-driven and player-created world, for people to create their alternative 2nd life - there is no competitive gameplay at all, there is not even a goal other to enjoy yourself and socialize and have fun interacting with other people. This does not even need new content - just a working sandbox, where people can create and live their dreams. You said that competiitve gamers are most profitable - I say, no, there is a lot of potential in those, who are not even gamers, but normal people with a life, who might not even have a lot of time to get involved with a virtual world - which does not necessarily have to be a game at all - second life is for example not a game - it is a virtual world.Edited by Lysette on June 30, 2016 4:18PM0 -
Lucious90✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
False. Hardcore gamers still generate more profits for companies than casual gamers despite the changing demographics of gamers. I don't know where you got this information from, but its false.
My history in sales tells me one thing..... Repeat customers will ALWAYS buy more if you provide a good service.... New customers are great and can expand that, but always iffy on a product or company, but your repeat customers are your honeyhole
Internet works differently than a local shop - there are plenty of new customers out there, you have to cater for their first experience with you and a few follow ups - rest is not important - you will get enough new ones. Just make new customers who are satisfied to write a review and the stream of new customers will never run dry - there is no need to cater for long-term customers, who are demanding - new ones take it like it is, far easier to deal with.
Thats the lazy way of doing customer service, if you have a revolving door on a long standing product, it never grows the new customers may "take it as it is" just becomes an excuse to put out shallow broken content.
If you focus on keeping long term customers, who actually care about the life of the game and the content, bringing good and albiet bad ideas to the table, but thats why you have alpha and beta phases. Those long term customer will bring their friends over, and they become long term players, grows the company and you dont need to keep reinvesting in short ROI cycles but can show a slower growth that will be more and more consistant with less cost involoved... Again what happens when they blow through all of the content? they stop activly playing until you put out another shallow DLC
Once they have bought all the content, why would I even want to keep them - nothing to gain from them, good when they leave. You can see it here in the forums - all they do, when you keep them, is toxicate the community - so better, they leave.
The toxicity comes from a very small minority that do eventually leave, though some stay for some reason or another.... If in my line of work (I do a lot of big business online) If I just said, oh you bought my product good, now scram, I wouldnt be in my position or business very long, repeat customers buy more everytime anyone in any kind of sales/retail customer service will tell ya.... I forgot the actual number but each sale with a repeat customer can generate 2-4% (ill have to look for the exact figure) more profit than just a typical new customer (outside the occasional laydown). Need to have a balanceXbox/NA
Naturegoat - Stam Warden
Healgoat- Mag temp
Staticgoat- Stam Sorc1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
False. Hardcore gamers still generate more profits for companies than casual gamers despite the changing demographics of gamers. I don't know where you got this information from, but its false.
My history in sales tells me one thing..... Repeat customers will ALWAYS buy more if you provide a good service.... New customers are great and can expand that, but always iffy on a product or company, but your repeat customers are your honeyhole
my point was only to highlight that hardcore competitive gamers are more profitable for companies than casual gamers. Casual gamers spend less time and money compared to hardcore competitive gamers. This is not my opinion its a gaming industry fact.
no it isn't - I would like to see statistics about it.
Spending less time is a good thing, not a bad one - less drain on the servers.
And what about MMOs which do not have competitive players at all - like Second Life. They are highly profitable, spending about a million US$ every day in player interaction - real US dollars.
Im talking about the gaming industry as a whole. That includes everything from console games, pc gaming tablets, smartphones,etc. MMO's do have a competitive player base. Look at the market leader for consoles Sony PlayStation. Sony is number one in worldwide sales for its console. Its market position is dedicated to hardcore competitive gamers. Why? Because they generate the most profits compared to casual gamers. Nintendo capitalized on the growing trend in casual gamers around 2009, but has since lost market share to other platforms such as tablets, smartphones,etc that cater to the casual gamer segment. Sony's competitor, Microsoft, is also dedicated more to hardcore gamers and is right behind Sony when it comes to console sales.
Different companies cater to different segments within the gaming industry. This is why market leaders, such as Sony, specifically target hardcore competitive gamers more. They generate more sales. This is not say that there is not a market for casual gamers because there are. Companies like nintendo target casual gamers and build their brand image around that.
and then there is second life - which is just a player-driven and player-created world, for people to create their alternative 2nd life - there is no competitive gameplay at all, there is not even a goal other to enjoy yourself and socialize and have fun interacting with other people. This does not even need new content - just a working sandbox, where people can create and live their dreams. You said that competiitve gamers are most profitable - I say, no, there is a lot of potential in those, who are not even gamers, but normal people with a life, who might not even have a lot of time to get involved with a virtual world - which does not necessarily have to be a game at all - second life is for example not a game - it is a virtual world.
Did you ever look at what kind of money Zynga makes with casual online games - MMO revenues are bleak against that. they have about a quarter billion players, which spend quite some amount of money on pretty simple games - there is where the money is.Edited by Lysette on June 30, 2016 4:22PM0 -
Lucious90✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
False. Hardcore gamers still generate more profits for companies than casual gamers despite the changing demographics of gamers. I don't know where you got this information from, but its false.
My history in sales tells me one thing..... Repeat customers will ALWAYS buy more if you provide a good service.... New customers are great and can expand that, but always iffy on a product or company, but your repeat customers are your honeyhole
my point was only to highlight that hardcore competitive gamers are more profitable for companies than casual gamers. Casual gamers spend less time and money compared to hardcore competitive gamers. This is not my opinion its a gaming industry fact.
no it isn't - I would like to see statistics about it.
Spending less time is a good thing, not a bad one - less drain on the servers.
And what about MMOs which do not have competitive players at all - like Second Life. They are highly profitable, spending about a million US$ every day in player interaction - real US dollars.
Im talking about the gaming industry as a whole. That includes everything from console games, pc gaming tablets, smartphones,etc. MMO's do have a competitive player base. Look at the market leader for consoles Sony PlayStation. Sony is number one in worldwide sales for its console. Its market position is dedicated to hardcore competitive gamers. Why? Because they generate the most profits compared to casual gamers. Nintendo capitalized on the growing trend in casual gamers around 2009, but has since lost market share to other platforms such as tablets, smartphones,etc that cater to the casual gamer segment. Sony's competitor, Microsoft, is also dedicated more to hardcore gamers and is right behind Sony when it comes to console sales.
Different companies cater to different segments within the gaming industry. This is why market leaders, such as Sony, specifically target hardcore competitive gamers more. They generate more sales. This is not say that there is not a market for casual gamers because there are. Companies like nintendo target casual gamers and build their brand image around that.
and then there is second life - which is just a player-driven and player-created world, for people to create their alternative 2nd life - there is no competitive gameplay at all, there is not even a goal other to enjoy yourself and socialize and have fun interacting with other people. This does not even need new content - just a working sandbox, where people can create and live their dreams. You said that competiitve gamers are most profitable - I say, no, there is a lot of potential in those, who are not even gamers, but normal people with a life, who might not even have a lot of time to get involved with a virtual world - which does not necessarily have to be a game at all - second life is for example not a game - it is a virtual world.
Did you ever look at what kind of money Zynga makes with casual online games - MMO revenues are bleak against that. they have about a quarter billion players, which spend quite some amount of money on pretty simple games - there is where the money is.
They also cater to a specific demographic within the gaming comunity, and I can probably guess they have an established wait for it......LONG TERM customer base.
Also realize MMOs are a completely different monster than games like SkyrimXbox/NA
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Staticgoat- Stam Sorc1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
False. Hardcore gamers still generate more profits for companies than casual gamers despite the changing demographics of gamers. I don't know where you got this information from, but its false.
My history in sales tells me one thing..... Repeat customers will ALWAYS buy more if you provide a good service.... New customers are great and can expand that, but always iffy on a product or company, but your repeat customers are your honeyhole
Internet works differently than a local shop - there are plenty of new customers out there, you have to cater for their first experience with you and a few follow ups - rest is not important - you will get enough new ones. Just make new customers who are satisfied to write a review and the stream of new customers will never run dry - there is no need to cater for long-term customers, who are demanding - new ones take it like it is, far easier to deal with.
Thats the lazy way of doing customer service, if you have a revolving door on a long standing product, it never grows the new customers may "take it as it is" just becomes an excuse to put out shallow broken content.
If you focus on keeping long term customers, who actually care about the life of the game and the content, bringing good and albiet bad ideas to the table, but thats why you have alpha and beta phases. Those long term customer will bring their friends over, and they become long term players, grows the company and you dont need to keep reinvesting in short ROI cycles but can show a slower growth that will be more and more consistant with less cost involoved... Again what happens when they blow through all of the content? they stop activly playing until you put out another shallow DLC
Once they have bought all the content, why would I even want to keep them - nothing to gain from them, good when they leave. You can see it here in the forums - all they do, when you keep them, is toxicate the community - so better, they leave.
The toxicity comes from a very small minority that do eventually leave, though some stay for some reason or another.... If in my line of work (I do a lot of big business online) If I just said, oh you bought my product good, now scram, I wouldnt be in my position or business very long, repeat customers buy more everytime anyone in any kind of sales/retail customer service will tell ya.... I forgot the actual number but each sale with a repeat customer can generate 2-4% (ill have to look for the exact figure) more profit than just a typical new customer (outside the occasional laydown). Need to have a balance
If i would have to do a business like that, I would go for the push through method - create an amazing first experience with some follow up and then let it run out - something what is effectively consumable and has an end to it - but where I can pump through a whole lot of people, and milk them off in the hot phase - with an amazing first experience and followup only.0 -
Gothren✭✭✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
False. Hardcore gamers still generate more profits for companies than casual gamers despite the changing demographics of gamers. I don't know where you got this information from, but its false.
My history in sales tells me one thing..... Repeat customers will ALWAYS buy more if you provide a good service.... New customers are great and can expand that, but always iffy on a product or company, but your repeat customers are your honeyhole
my point was only to highlight that hardcore competitive gamers are more profitable for companies than casual gamers. Casual gamers spend less time and money compared to hardcore competitive gamers. This is not my opinion its a gaming industry fact.
no it isn't - I would like to see statistics about it.
Spending less time is a good thing, not a bad one - less drain on the servers.
And what about MMOs which do not have competitive players at all - like Second Life. They are highly profitable, spending about a million US$ every day in player interaction - real US dollars.
Im talking about the gaming industry as a whole. That includes everything from console games, pc gaming tablets, smartphones,etc. MMO's do have a competitive player base. Look at the market leader for consoles Sony PlayStation. Sony is number one in worldwide sales for its console. Its market position is dedicated to hardcore competitive gamers. Why? Because they generate the most profits compared to casual gamers. Nintendo capitalized on the growing trend in casual gamers around 2009, but has since lost market share to other platforms such as tablets, smartphones,etc that cater to the casual gamer segment. Sony's competitor, Microsoft, is also dedicated more to hardcore gamers and is right behind Sony when it comes to console sales.
Different companies cater to different segments within the gaming industry. This is why market leaders, such as Sony, specifically target hardcore competitive gamers more. They generate more sales. This is not say that there is not a market for casual gamers because there are. Companies like nintendo target casual gamers and build their brand image around that.
and then there is second life - which is just a player-driven and player-created world, for people to create their alternative 2nd life - there is no competitive gameplay at all, there is not even a goal other to enjoy yourself and socialize and have fun interacting with other people. This does not even need new content - just a working sandbox, where people can create and live their dreams. You said that competiitve gamers are most profitable - I say, no, there is a lot of potential in those, who are not even gamers, but normal people with a life, who might not even have a lot of time to get involved with a virtual world - which does not necessarily have to be a game at all - second life is for example not a game - it is a virtual world.
Im sorry but you have no argument what so ever. You keep bringing up ONE game when im talking about the entire gaming industry. start making some valid points or your not worth my time to debate with.1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
False. Hardcore gamers still generate more profits for companies than casual gamers despite the changing demographics of gamers. I don't know where you got this information from, but its false.
My history in sales tells me one thing..... Repeat customers will ALWAYS buy more if you provide a good service.... New customers are great and can expand that, but always iffy on a product or company, but your repeat customers are your honeyhole
Internet works differently than a local shop - there are plenty of new customers out there, you have to cater for their first experience with you and a few follow ups - rest is not important - you will get enough new ones. Just make new customers who are satisfied to write a review and the stream of new customers will never run dry - there is no need to cater for long-term customers, who are demanding - new ones take it like it is, far easier to deal with.
Thats the lazy way of doing customer service, if you have a revolving door on a long standing product, it never grows the new customers may "take it as it is" just becomes an excuse to put out shallow broken content.
If you focus on keeping long term customers, who actually care about the life of the game and the content, bringing good and albiet bad ideas to the table, but thats why you have alpha and beta phases. Those long term customer will bring their friends over, and they become long term players, grows the company and you dont need to keep reinvesting in short ROI cycles but can show a slower growth that will be more and more consistant with less cost involoved... Again what happens when they blow through all of the content? they stop activly playing until you put out another shallow DLC
Once they have bought all the content, why would I even want to keep them - nothing to gain from them, good when they leave. You can see it here in the forums - all they do, when you keep them, is toxicate the community - so better, they leave.
The toxicity comes from a very small minority that do eventually leave, though some stay for some reason or another.... If in my line of work (I do a lot of big business online) If I just said, oh you bought my product good, now scram, I wouldnt be in my position or business very long, repeat customers buy more everytime anyone in any kind of sales/retail customer service will tell ya.... I forgot the actual number but each sale with a repeat customer can generate 2-4% (ill have to look for the exact figure) more profit than just a typical new customer (outside the occasional laydown). Need to have a balance
If i would have to do a business like that, I would go for the push through method - create an amazing first experience with some follow up and then let it run out - something what is effectively consumable and has an end to it - but where I can pump through a whole lot of people, and milk them off in the hot phase - with an amazing first experience and followup only.
Basically like a movie - that is the same principle - a hot phase to pump a lot of people through and cash in - and a follow up on DVD and that's it. That is not a bad business model, it works perfectly for them.
It is as well the model for single player games, if you see it like that - cash in on the game, and do follow up DLCs - and then stop.Edited by Lysette on June 30, 2016 4:30PM0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
False. Hardcore gamers still generate more profits for companies than casual gamers despite the changing demographics of gamers. I don't know where you got this information from, but its false.
My history in sales tells me one thing..... Repeat customers will ALWAYS buy more if you provide a good service.... New customers are great and can expand that, but always iffy on a product or company, but your repeat customers are your honeyhole
my point was only to highlight that hardcore competitive gamers are more profitable for companies than casual gamers. Casual gamers spend less time and money compared to hardcore competitive gamers. This is not my opinion its a gaming industry fact.
no it isn't - I would like to see statistics about it.
Spending less time is a good thing, not a bad one - less drain on the servers.
And what about MMOs which do not have competitive players at all - like Second Life. They are highly profitable, spending about a million US$ every day in player interaction - real US dollars.
Im talking about the gaming industry as a whole. That includes everything from console games, pc gaming tablets, smartphones,etc. MMO's do have a competitive player base. Look at the market leader for consoles Sony PlayStation. Sony is number one in worldwide sales for its console. Its market position is dedicated to hardcore competitive gamers. Why? Because they generate the most profits compared to casual gamers. Nintendo capitalized on the growing trend in casual gamers around 2009, but has since lost market share to other platforms such as tablets, smartphones,etc that cater to the casual gamer segment. Sony's competitor, Microsoft, is also dedicated more to hardcore gamers and is right behind Sony when it comes to console sales.
Different companies cater to different segments within the gaming industry. This is why market leaders, such as Sony, specifically target hardcore competitive gamers more. They generate more sales. This is not say that there is not a market for casual gamers because there are. Companies like nintendo target casual gamers and build their brand image around that.
and then there is second life - which is just a player-driven and player-created world, for people to create their alternative 2nd life - there is no competitive gameplay at all, there is not even a goal other to enjoy yourself and socialize and have fun interacting with other people. This does not even need new content - just a working sandbox, where people can create and live their dreams. You said that competiitve gamers are most profitable - I say, no, there is a lot of potential in those, who are not even gamers, but normal people with a life, who might not even have a lot of time to get involved with a virtual world - which does not necessarily have to be a game at all - second life is for example not a game - it is a virtual world.
Did you ever look at what kind of money Zynga makes with casual online games - MMO revenues are bleak against that. they have about a quarter billion players, which spend quite some amount of money on pretty simple games - there is where the money is.
They also cater to a specific demographic within the gaming comunity, and I can probably guess they have an established wait for it......LONG TERM customer base.
Also realize MMOs are a completely different monster than games like Skyrim
But they don't have to be - and when you have a look at asian MMOs, they have more my kind of model - a hype phase where they cash in and a follow up where they cater to the whales - and then they let it die - and do the next one.0 -
Lucious90✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
False. Hardcore gamers still generate more profits for companies than casual gamers despite the changing demographics of gamers. I don't know where you got this information from, but its false.
My history in sales tells me one thing..... Repeat customers will ALWAYS buy more if you provide a good service.... New customers are great and can expand that, but always iffy on a product or company, but your repeat customers are your honeyhole
Internet works differently than a local shop - there are plenty of new customers out there, you have to cater for their first experience with you and a few follow ups - rest is not important - you will get enough new ones. Just make new customers who are satisfied to write a review and the stream of new customers will never run dry - there is no need to cater for long-term customers, who are demanding - new ones take it like it is, far easier to deal with.
Thats the lazy way of doing customer service, if you have a revolving door on a long standing product, it never grows the new customers may "take it as it is" just becomes an excuse to put out shallow broken content.
If you focus on keeping long term customers, who actually care about the life of the game and the content, bringing good and albiet bad ideas to the table, but thats why you have alpha and beta phases. Those long term customer will bring their friends over, and they become long term players, grows the company and you dont need to keep reinvesting in short ROI cycles but can show a slower growth that will be more and more consistant with less cost involoved... Again what happens when they blow through all of the content? they stop activly playing until you put out another shallow DLC
Once they have bought all the content, why would I even want to keep them - nothing to gain from them, good when they leave. You can see it here in the forums - all they do, when you keep them, is toxicate the community - so better, they leave.
The toxicity comes from a very small minority that do eventually leave, though some stay for some reason or another.... If in my line of work (I do a lot of big business online) If I just said, oh you bought my product good, now scram, I wouldnt be in my position or business very long, repeat customers buy more everytime anyone in any kind of sales/retail customer service will tell ya.... I forgot the actual number but each sale with a repeat customer can generate 2-4% (ill have to look for the exact figure) more profit than just a typical new customer (outside the occasional laydown). Need to have a balance
If i would have to do a business like that, I would go for the push through method - create an amazing first experience with some follow up and then let it run out - something what is effectively consumable and has an end to it - but where I can pump through a whole lot of people, and milk them off in the hot phase - with an amazing first experience and followup only.
Thats fine and dandy, but where does your longevity come from? Bringing in more customers? What about service if something goes wrong? Going to push them through with that as well? Once they buy your product you're done with them? So they all burn through your short conent now what? Make another one? they come back, guess what you just created a LONG TERM REPEAT CUSTOMER. If you are working on just quick games to get them by, thats what Skyrim did and does. Would work for a single player game or other consumable, but something with staying power wont last too long, name one game that is an MMO that has lasted more than 5 years with a good stable game, and good customer base that isnt Second life as we are talking MMOs not Sims OnlineEdited by Lucious90 on June 30, 2016 4:34PMXbox/NA
Naturegoat - Stam Warden
Healgoat- Mag temp
Staticgoat- Stam Sorc0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
False. Hardcore gamers still generate more profits for companies than casual gamers despite the changing demographics of gamers. I don't know where you got this information from, but its false.
My history in sales tells me one thing..... Repeat customers will ALWAYS buy more if you provide a good service.... New customers are great and can expand that, but always iffy on a product or company, but your repeat customers are your honeyhole
my point was only to highlight that hardcore competitive gamers are more profitable for companies than casual gamers. Casual gamers spend less time and money compared to hardcore competitive gamers. This is not my opinion its a gaming industry fact.
no it isn't - I would like to see statistics about it.
Spending less time is a good thing, not a bad one - less drain on the servers.
And what about MMOs which do not have competitive players at all - like Second Life. They are highly profitable, spending about a million US$ every day in player interaction - real US dollars.
Im talking about the gaming industry as a whole. That includes everything from console games, pc gaming tablets, smartphones,etc. MMO's do have a competitive player base. Look at the market leader for consoles Sony PlayStation. Sony is number one in worldwide sales for its console. Its market position is dedicated to hardcore competitive gamers. Why? Because they generate the most profits compared to casual gamers. Nintendo capitalized on the growing trend in casual gamers around 2009, but has since lost market share to other platforms such as tablets, smartphones,etc that cater to the casual gamer segment. Sony's competitor, Microsoft, is also dedicated more to hardcore gamers and is right behind Sony when it comes to console sales.
Different companies cater to different segments within the gaming industry. This is why market leaders, such as Sony, specifically target hardcore competitive gamers more. They generate more sales. This is not say that there is not a market for casual gamers because there are. Companies like nintendo target casual gamers and build their brand image around that.
and then there is second life - which is just a player-driven and player-created world, for people to create their alternative 2nd life - there is no competitive gameplay at all, there is not even a goal other to enjoy yourself and socialize and have fun interacting with other people. This does not even need new content - just a working sandbox, where people can create and live their dreams. You said that competiitve gamers are most profitable - I say, no, there is a lot of potential in those, who are not even gamers, but normal people with a life, who might not even have a lot of time to get involved with a virtual world - which does not necessarily have to be a game at all - second life is for example not a game - it is a virtual world.
Im sorry but you have no argument what so ever. You keep bringing up ONE game when im talking about the entire gaming industry. start making some valid points or your not worth my time to debate with.
Well, I made a couple of valid points - movie industry, single player games, online casual games, asian MMO - if that is not convincing, then we better stop arguing.0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
False. Hardcore gamers still generate more profits for companies than casual gamers despite the changing demographics of gamers. I don't know where you got this information from, but its false.
My history in sales tells me one thing..... Repeat customers will ALWAYS buy more if you provide a good service.... New customers are great and can expand that, but always iffy on a product or company, but your repeat customers are your honeyhole
Internet works differently than a local shop - there are plenty of new customers out there, you have to cater for their first experience with you and a few follow ups - rest is not important - you will get enough new ones. Just make new customers who are satisfied to write a review and the stream of new customers will never run dry - there is no need to cater for long-term customers, who are demanding - new ones take it like it is, far easier to deal with.
Thats the lazy way of doing customer service, if you have a revolving door on a long standing product, it never grows the new customers may "take it as it is" just becomes an excuse to put out shallow broken content.
If you focus on keeping long term customers, who actually care about the life of the game and the content, bringing good and albiet bad ideas to the table, but thats why you have alpha and beta phases. Those long term customer will bring their friends over, and they become long term players, grows the company and you dont need to keep reinvesting in short ROI cycles but can show a slower growth that will be more and more consistant with less cost involoved... Again what happens when they blow through all of the content? they stop activly playing until you put out another shallow DLC
Once they have bought all the content, why would I even want to keep them - nothing to gain from them, good when they leave. You can see it here in the forums - all they do, when you keep them, is toxicate the community - so better, they leave.
The toxicity comes from a very small minority that do eventually leave, though some stay for some reason or another.... If in my line of work (I do a lot of big business online) If I just said, oh you bought my product good, now scram, I wouldnt be in my position or business very long, repeat customers buy more everytime anyone in any kind of sales/retail customer service will tell ya.... I forgot the actual number but each sale with a repeat customer can generate 2-4% (ill have to look for the exact figure) more profit than just a typical new customer (outside the occasional laydown). Need to have a balance
If i would have to do a business like that, I would go for the push through method - create an amazing first experience with some follow up and then let it run out - something what is effectively consumable and has an end to it - but where I can pump through a whole lot of people, and milk them off in the hot phase - with an amazing first experience and followup only.
Thats fine and dandy, but where does your longevity come from? Bringing in more customers? What about service if something goes wrong? Going to push them through with that as well? Once they buy your product you're done with them? So they all burn through your short conent now what? Make another one? they come back, guess what you just created a LONG TERM REPEAT CUSTOMER. If you are working on just quick games to get them by, thats what Skyrim did and does. Would work for a single player game or other consumable, but something with staying power wont last too long, name one game that is an MMO that has lasted more than 5 years with a good stable game, and good customer base that isnt Second life as we are talking MMOs not Sims Online
What longevity - the asian market shows how this is done - med-term products only - which expire - and then run the next one - there is no need to focus on just one product, you do multiple in parallel or in sequence or both.
No you said it is a fact in the gaming industry - now do not limit it to MMOs - you are changing the condition and I am not following you there. You said gaming industry, and I nail you to this, you have to stick to it when you argue, not change the subject.Edited by Lysette on June 30, 2016 4:40PM0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hardcore is not dead, look at VMOL. Problem is that ZOS spent a year driving Hardcore players away from the game, so getting a group that has a shot at completing this place is near impossible. Haha.1 -
Clerics1985✭✭✭Is ZOS a U.S Developer? If so then there is a Painfully obvious Reason for the "shift" of Games Getting Easier.
It's called the "No child left behind" clause
1 -
Callous2208✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
False. Hardcore gamers still generate more profits for companies than casual gamers despite the changing demographics of gamers. I don't know where you got this information from, but its false.
My history in sales tells me one thing..... Repeat customers will ALWAYS buy more if you provide a good service.... New customers are great and can expand that, but always iffy on a product or company, but your repeat customers are your honeyhole
my point was only to highlight that hardcore competitive gamers are more profitable for companies than casual gamers. Casual gamers spend less time and money compared to hardcore competitive gamers. This is not my opinion its a gaming industry fact.
no it isn't - I would like to see statistics about it.
Spending less time is a good thing, not a bad one - less drain on the servers.
And what about MMOs which do not have competitive players at all - like Second Life. They are highly profitable, spending about a million US$ every day in player interaction - real US dollars.
Im talking about the gaming industry as a whole. That includes everything from console games, pc gaming tablets, smartphones,etc. MMO's do have a competitive player base. Look at the market leader for consoles Sony PlayStation. Sony is number one in worldwide sales for its console. Its market position is dedicated to hardcore competitive gamers. Why? Because they generate the most profits compared to casual gamers. Nintendo capitalized on the growing trend in casual gamers around 2009, but has since lost market share to other platforms such as tablets, smartphones,etc that cater to the casual gamer segment. Sony's competitor, Microsoft, is also dedicated more to hardcore gamers and is right behind Sony when it comes to console sales.
Different companies cater to different segments within the gaming industry. This is why market leaders, such as Sony, specifically target hardcore competitive gamers more. They generate more sales. This is not say that there is not a market for casual gamers because there are. Companies like nintendo target casual gamers and build their brand image around that.
and then there is second life - which is just a player-driven and player-created world, for people to create their alternative 2nd life - there is no competitive gameplay at all, there is not even a goal other to enjoy yourself and socialize and have fun interacting with other people. This does not even need new content - just a working sandbox, where people can create and live their dreams. You said that competiitve gamers are most profitable - I say, no, there is a lot of potential in those, who are not even gamers, but normal people with a life, who might not even have a lot of time to get involved with a virtual world - which does not necessarily have to be a game at all - second life is for example not a game - it is a virtual world.
Im sorry but you have no argument what so ever. You keep bringing up ONE game when im talking about the entire gaming industry. start making some valid points or your not worth my time to debate with.
And yet you used a graphic showing console sales numbers to prove that hardcore gamers make up the majority of profits. Really man?Come on. There are large numbers of people who are using their consoles as streaming devices only. Look at the library of games from Sony and Xbox. Primarily hardcore focused? Not a chance. I can only assume they get their biggest sales numbers from titles like CoD, BF, and sports games. Hardcore oriented? Or is every child in America playing those after school for a few hours before bed, and moving on to the next one that will inevitably drop in a month or so? Find me a list of MMO's in the eastern hemisphere that are taking a strict hardcore only philosophy. There aren't many, and the ones that exist aren't doing so hot.0 -
Gothren✭✭✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
False. Hardcore gamers still generate more profits for companies than casual gamers despite the changing demographics of gamers. I don't know where you got this information from, but its false.
My history in sales tells me one thing..... Repeat customers will ALWAYS buy more if you provide a good service.... New customers are great and can expand that, but always iffy on a product or company, but your repeat customers are your honeyhole
my point was only to highlight that hardcore competitive gamers are more profitable for companies than casual gamers. Casual gamers spend less time and money compared to hardcore competitive gamers. This is not my opinion its a gaming industry fact.
no it isn't - I would like to see statistics about it.
Spending less time is a good thing, not a bad one - less drain on the servers.
And what about MMOs which do not have competitive players at all - like Second Life. They are highly profitable, spending about a million US$ every day in player interaction - real US dollars.
Im talking about the gaming industry as a whole. That includes everything from console games, pc gaming tablets, smartphones,etc. MMO's do have a competitive player base. Look at the market leader for consoles Sony PlayStation. Sony is number one in worldwide sales for its console. Its market position is dedicated to hardcore competitive gamers. Why? Because they generate the most profits compared to casual gamers. Nintendo capitalized on the growing trend in casual gamers around 2009, but has since lost market share to other platforms such as tablets, smartphones,etc that cater to the casual gamer segment. Sony's competitor, Microsoft, is also dedicated more to hardcore gamers and is right behind Sony when it comes to console sales.
Different companies cater to different segments within the gaming industry. This is why market leaders, such as Sony, specifically target hardcore competitive gamers more. They generate more sales. This is not say that there is not a market for casual gamers because there are. Companies like nintendo target casual gamers and build their brand image around that.
and then there is second life - which is just a player-driven and player-created world, for people to create their alternative 2nd life - there is no competitive gameplay at all, there is not even a goal other to enjoy yourself and socialize and have fun interacting with other people. This does not even need new content - just a working sandbox, where people can create and live their dreams. You said that competiitve gamers are most profitable - I say, no, there is a lot of potential in those, who are not even gamers, but normal people with a life, who might not even have a lot of time to get involved with a virtual world - which does not necessarily have to be a game at all - second life is for example not a game - it is a virtual world.
Im sorry but you have no argument what so ever. You keep bringing up ONE game when im talking about the entire gaming industry. start making some valid points or your not worth my time to debate with.
Well, I made a couple of valid points - movie industry, single player games, online casual games, asian MMO - if that is not convincing, then we better stop arguing.
you did NOT present anything at all. Not even any research or graphs to help your position. your argument is nonexistent. come back when you have one or at least a counter argument.0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Clerics1985 wrote: »Is ZOS a U.S Developer? If so then there is a Painfully obvious Reason for the "shift" of Games Getting Easier.
It's called the "No child left behind" clause
Haha, that is what really has going on my nerves in Bleakrock island - once you start the quest with Captain Rana there, the other officer at it's town square always says "make sure that everyone is accounted for - no one is left behind" - then I think about that, what you just said.Edited by Lysette on June 30, 2016 4:46PM2 -
Gothren✭✭✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
False. Hardcore gamers still generate more profits for companies than casual gamers despite the changing demographics of gamers. I don't know where you got this information from, but its false.
My history in sales tells me one thing..... Repeat customers will ALWAYS buy more if you provide a good service.... New customers are great and can expand that, but always iffy on a product or company, but your repeat customers are your honeyhole
my point was only to highlight that hardcore competitive gamers are more profitable for companies than casual gamers. Casual gamers spend less time and money compared to hardcore competitive gamers. This is not my opinion its a gaming industry fact.
no it isn't - I would like to see statistics about it.
Spending less time is a good thing, not a bad one - less drain on the servers.
And what about MMOs which do not have competitive players at all - like Second Life. They are highly profitable, spending about a million US$ every day in player interaction - real US dollars.
Im talking about the gaming industry as a whole. That includes everything from console games, pc gaming tablets, smartphones,etc. MMO's do have a competitive player base. Look at the market leader for consoles Sony PlayStation. Sony is number one in worldwide sales for its console. Its market position is dedicated to hardcore competitive gamers. Why? Because they generate the most profits compared to casual gamers. Nintendo capitalized on the growing trend in casual gamers around 2009, but has since lost market share to other platforms such as tablets, smartphones,etc that cater to the casual gamer segment. Sony's competitor, Microsoft, is also dedicated more to hardcore gamers and is right behind Sony when it comes to console sales.
Different companies cater to different segments within the gaming industry. This is why market leaders, such as Sony, specifically target hardcore competitive gamers more. They generate more sales. This is not say that there is not a market for casual gamers because there are. Companies like nintendo target casual gamers and build their brand image around that.
and then there is second life - which is just a player-driven and player-created world, for people to create their alternative 2nd life - there is no competitive gameplay at all, there is not even a goal other to enjoy yourself and socialize and have fun interacting with other people. This does not even need new content - just a working sandbox, where people can create and live their dreams. You said that competiitve gamers are most profitable - I say, no, there is a lot of potential in those, who are not even gamers, but normal people with a life, who might not even have a lot of time to get involved with a virtual world - which does not necessarily have to be a game at all - second life is for example not a game - it is a virtual world.
Im sorry but you have no argument what so ever. You keep bringing up ONE game when im talking about the entire gaming industry. start making some valid points or your not worth my time to debate with.
Well, I made a couple of valid points - movie industry, single player games, online casual games, asian MMO - if that is not convincing, then we better stop arguing.
you did NOT present anything at all. Not even any research or graphs to help your position. your argument is nonexistent. come back when you have one or at least a counter argument.
ill check back with you later AFTER you have done your research.0 -
Callous2208✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
False. Hardcore gamers still generate more profits for companies than casual gamers despite the changing demographics of gamers. I don't know where you got this information from, but its false.
My history in sales tells me one thing..... Repeat customers will ALWAYS buy more if you provide a good service.... New customers are great and can expand that, but always iffy on a product or company, but your repeat customers are your honeyhole
my point was only to highlight that hardcore competitive gamers are more profitable for companies than casual gamers. Casual gamers spend less time and money compared to hardcore competitive gamers. This is not my opinion its a gaming industry fact.
no it isn't - I would like to see statistics about it.
Spending less time is a good thing, not a bad one - less drain on the servers.
And what about MMOs which do not have competitive players at all - like Second Life. They are highly profitable, spending about a million US$ every day in player interaction - real US dollars.
Im talking about the gaming industry as a whole. That includes everything from console games, pc gaming tablets, smartphones,etc. MMO's do have a competitive player base. Look at the market leader for consoles Sony PlayStation. Sony is number one in worldwide sales for its console. Its market position is dedicated to hardcore competitive gamers. Why? Because they generate the most profits compared to casual gamers. Nintendo capitalized on the growing trend in casual gamers around 2009, but has since lost market share to other platforms such as tablets, smartphones,etc that cater to the casual gamer segment. Sony's competitor, Microsoft, is also dedicated more to hardcore gamers and is right behind Sony when it comes to console sales.
Different companies cater to different segments within the gaming industry. This is why market leaders, such as Sony, specifically target hardcore competitive gamers more. They generate more sales. This is not say that there is not a market for casual gamers because there are. Companies like nintendo target casual gamers and build their brand image around that.
and then there is second life - which is just a player-driven and player-created world, for people to create their alternative 2nd life - there is no competitive gameplay at all, there is not even a goal other to enjoy yourself and socialize and have fun interacting with other people. This does not even need new content - just a working sandbox, where people can create and live their dreams. You said that competiitve gamers are most profitable - I say, no, there is a lot of potential in those, who are not even gamers, but normal people with a life, who might not even have a lot of time to get involved with a virtual world - which does not necessarily have to be a game at all - second life is for example not a game - it is a virtual world.
Im sorry but you have no argument what so ever. You keep bringing up ONE game when im talking about the entire gaming industry. start making some valid points or your not worth my time to debate with.
Well, I made a couple of valid points - movie industry, single player games, online casual games, asian MMO - if that is not convincing, then we better stop arguing.
you did NOT present anything at all. Not even any research or graphs to help your position. your argument is nonexistent. come back when you have one or at least a counter argument.
Again, the info in your graph had nothing to support your own argument. So perhaps you should come back when you have something worthwhile to present as well.0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
False. Hardcore gamers still generate more profits for companies than casual gamers despite the changing demographics of gamers. I don't know where you got this information from, but its false.
My history in sales tells me one thing..... Repeat customers will ALWAYS buy more if you provide a good service.... New customers are great and can expand that, but always iffy on a product or company, but your repeat customers are your honeyhole
my point was only to highlight that hardcore competitive gamers are more profitable for companies than casual gamers. Casual gamers spend less time and money compared to hardcore competitive gamers. This is not my opinion its a gaming industry fact.
no it isn't - I would like to see statistics about it.
Spending less time is a good thing, not a bad one - less drain on the servers.
And what about MMOs which do not have competitive players at all - like Second Life. They are highly profitable, spending about a million US$ every day in player interaction - real US dollars.
Im talking about the gaming industry as a whole. That includes everything from console games, pc gaming tablets, smartphones,etc. MMO's do have a competitive player base. Look at the market leader for consoles Sony PlayStation. Sony is number one in worldwide sales for its console. Its market position is dedicated to hardcore competitive gamers. Why? Because they generate the most profits compared to casual gamers. Nintendo capitalized on the growing trend in casual gamers around 2009, but has since lost market share to other platforms such as tablets, smartphones,etc that cater to the casual gamer segment. Sony's competitor, Microsoft, is also dedicated more to hardcore gamers and is right behind Sony when it comes to console sales.
Different companies cater to different segments within the gaming industry. This is why market leaders, such as Sony, specifically target hardcore competitive gamers more. They generate more sales. This is not say that there is not a market for casual gamers because there are. Companies like nintendo target casual gamers and build their brand image around that.
and then there is second life - which is just a player-driven and player-created world, for people to create their alternative 2nd life - there is no competitive gameplay at all, there is not even a goal other to enjoy yourself and socialize and have fun interacting with other people. This does not even need new content - just a working sandbox, where people can create and live their dreams. You said that competiitve gamers are most profitable - I say, no, there is a lot of potential in those, who are not even gamers, but normal people with a life, who might not even have a lot of time to get involved with a virtual world - which does not necessarily have to be a game at all - second life is for example not a game - it is a virtual world.
Im sorry but you have no argument what so ever. You keep bringing up ONE game when im talking about the entire gaming industry. start making some valid points or your not worth my time to debate with.
Well, I made a couple of valid points - movie industry, single player games, online casual games, asian MMO - if that is not convincing, then we better stop arguing.
you did NOT present anything at all. Not even any research or graphs to help your position. your argument is nonexistent. come back when you have one or at least a counter argument.
Well, I guess you are perfectly capable to google for the revenue of Zynga for example - I do not have to do that for you. There is as well a lot of information on the web about the revenue of movies, single player games and so on - I gave the idea, you can verify it yourself, the information is there, I do not have to work for you. If you want to know, google yourself.0 -
Lucious90✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »
The casual crybaby whiners needs to have everything handed to them without any effort though, it's not ok for a few games to be challenging so that they need to use that mush they call brains a bit.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The crying generally comes from the so called "hardcore" after spending weeks glued to their tv/monitors. They can't understand why all the gaming companies are moving away from catering to this slowly dieing out, minority demographic. They consume a months worth of content in 2 days by playing more than any healthy or sane person should and then scream that it wasn't enough. Flocking online to bash the game before moving on to the next. Inevitably, this cycle will continue, as no title will be able to keep up with their demands.
And on a side note, no-life grinding in a video game does not equate to you being skilled, or more deserving of reward than a casual to moderate player.
False. Hardcore gamers still generate more profits for companies than casual gamers despite the changing demographics of gamers. I don't know where you got this information from, but its false.
My history in sales tells me one thing..... Repeat customers will ALWAYS buy more if you provide a good service.... New customers are great and can expand that, but always iffy on a product or company, but your repeat customers are your honeyhole
Internet works differently than a local shop - there are plenty of new customers out there, you have to cater for their first experience with you and a few follow ups - rest is not important - you will get enough new ones. Just make new customers who are satisfied to write a review and the stream of new customers will never run dry - there is no need to cater for long-term customers, who are demanding - new ones take it like it is, far easier to deal with.
Thats the lazy way of doing customer service, if you have a revolving door on a long standing product, it never grows the new customers may "take it as it is" just becomes an excuse to put out shallow broken content.
If you focus on keeping long term customers, who actually care about the life of the game and the content, bringing good and albiet bad ideas to the table, but thats why you have alpha and beta phases. Those long term customer will bring their friends over, and they become long term players, grows the company and you dont need to keep reinvesting in short ROI cycles but can show a slower growth that will be more and more consistant with less cost involoved... Again what happens when they blow through all of the content? they stop activly playing until you put out another shallow DLC
Once they have bought all the content, why would I even want to keep them - nothing to gain from them, good when they leave. You can see it here in the forums - all they do, when you keep them, is toxicate the community - so better, they leave.
The toxicity comes from a very small minority that do eventually leave, though some stay for some reason or another.... If in my line of work (I do a lot of big business online) If I just said, oh you bought my product good, now scram, I wouldnt be in my position or business very long, repeat customers buy more everytime anyone in any kind of sales/retail customer service will tell ya.... I forgot the actual number but each sale with a repeat customer can generate 2-4% (ill have to look for the exact figure) more profit than just a typical new customer (outside the occasional laydown). Need to have a balance
If i would have to do a business like that, I would go for the push through method - create an amazing first experience with some follow up and then let it run out - something what is effectively consumable and has an end to it - but where I can pump through a whole lot of people, and milk them off in the hot phase - with an amazing first experience and followup only.
Thats fine and dandy, but where does your longevity come from? Bringing in more customers? What about service if something goes wrong? Going to push them through with that as well? Once they buy your product you're done with them? So they all burn through your short conent now what? Make another one? they come back, guess what you just created a LONG TERM REPEAT CUSTOMER. If you are working on just quick games to get them by, thats what Skyrim did and does. Would work for a single player game or other consumable, but something with staying power wont last too long, name one game that is an MMO that has lasted more than 5 years with a good stable game, and good customer base that isnt Second life as we are talking MMOs not Sims Online
What longevity - the asian market shows how this is done - med-term products only - which expire - and then run the next one - there is no need to focus on just one product, you do multiple in parallel or in sequence or both.
Asian markets are different from like the US market... In Asian markets they thrive on more of the Mobile quick games and PC games. Take China as an example, up until recently consoles where banned, so they either where smuggled in or they moved to PC games or mobile games, which brought up a strange market in the gaming community there, with short hyper games, ever wonder why asians are always so good at games like SC2? Where as in the States, we have both PC and consoles, now throwing in mobile gaming.... We have a more diverse market for games, where we do both long standing MMOs.... WoW and quickly consumed and forgotten games *insert any single player game*
Now this means that there is more competition outside of the style of gaming, PC game developers have to worry about Consoles and tablet/mobile devices pulling away from the customer baseXbox/NA
Naturegoat - Stam Warden
Healgoat- Mag temp
Staticgoat- Stam Sorc0 -
Lucious90✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Hardcore is not dead, look at VMOL. Problem is that ZOS spent a year driving Hardcore players away from the game, so getting a group that has a shot at completing this place is near impossible. Haha.
I couldnt agree more, between lack of content and not scaling up Trials, they are leavingXbox/NA
Naturegoat - Stam Warden
Healgoat- Mag temp
Staticgoat- Stam Sorc0