Cody wrote: »

The point? The ability at one point, sucked; and now it is a decent ability, and I would like for it to remain so. I am however, aware of how ridiculous damage can get. My snipes can get close to 10K if I enable certain buffs. But this is not snipe's fault. This is the fault of the inner game mechanics.

Lack of softcaps being one major reason. Without softcaps people can get damage and sustain to however high their imagination(and gear) allow. Snipe "does too high damage for too low a cost" because players are able to reach gigantic weapon damage values. Do I agree with how much damage snipe can do? No. If CC break did not exist I would be 3 shotting people; the damage is much too high; but instead of making snipe worthless again, I think we should try a more general approach, and said approach starts with the return of softcaps, as well as other ideas I am sure I have yet to see or come up with; not nerfing X ability or class. /end rant

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Natas013 wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

The point? The ability at one point, sucked; and now it is a decent ability, and I would like for it to remain so. I am however, aware of how ridiculous damage can get. My snipes can get close to 10K if I enable certain buffs. But this is not snipe's fault. This is the fault of the inner game mechanics.

Lack of softcaps being one major reason. Without softcaps people can get damage and sustain to however high their imagination(and gear) allow. Snipe "does too high damage for too low a cost" because players are able to reach gigantic weapon damage values. Do I agree with how much damage snipe can do? No. If CC break did not exist I would be 3 shotting people; the damage is much too high; but instead of making snipe worthless again, I think we should try a more general approach, and said approach starts with the return of softcaps, as well as other ideas I am sure I have yet to see or come up with; not nerfing X ability or class. /end rant

As a console player I never experienced softcaps. Being as I'm ignorant to this dynamic I'm not sure I entirely agree. The way I understand it, reintroduction of soft caps would break CP. as such I suggest an alternate solution to the issue that'll not require rebalancing PvE in the process.

I've posted this before elsewhere, but I'll post it again.

Recomended battle spirit change: Restore damage, shields, and healing to normal levels. Increase damage mitigation cap to 75%. Double armors resistance. Keep the buff to health, possibly increase it slightly.

It's not the most elegant fix, but I feel it's a step in a better direction than the current one taken. As someone that enjoys both PvE and PvP, I'm tired of one side getting the shaft because something's broken on the other. As someone that mains a mag Sorc, I've got a laundry list of things to point at…

WTF? You don't want people to ever die in pvp? That's an insane buff to survivability.

yodased wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

People standing at the back of groups spamming one of the following have the strangest idea of fun:

Snipe
Radiant Destruction
Overload
Bombard

Seriously, nobody likes you. Not even your own faction.

I like them, I actually will be the guy sitting with them spamming meatbag on you and laughing all the way to the AP bank.

Don't like it? Come kill me

Xsorus wrote: »

Well since you're a templar; Explain how Snipe is any different from Dark Flare.

Right now you can basically pull the same thing as a Magicka Templar; Darkflare/Spear/Radiant...dead target..

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I'm all for functionally changing Snipe to have a shorter flight time and slightly less damage. This would make it a more competitive ability for bow users. Some of the inherent issues are caused because of lag combined with the long flight time, but bow users can tell you that is the same reason they cant kill people or be competitive more than half the time. If it doesn't lag you dodge roll them all and they just wasted their time.

If 3 players are coordinated enough to spam snipe on you, you are dead unless you have wings, shield, or enough stamina to dodge roll/block your way to a LOS point. This is no different than if 3 NB's were to sequentially SA you, or 3 players surrounded you and started to Dizzying Swing you to death.

Bow builds currently have the functionality problem:

Poison Injection is a great DOT but does not hit hard enough up front to be a good filler. You apply it and that's great but you need it to tick to get its best bonus' so there's no reason in reapplying before ticks.

Arrow Volley does not do direct damage and your targets have to stand inside of damage circle.

Bombard has excellent root capabilities but is not cheap has only a 20m range, does not fire based on your target reticle but where your character is facing, does not do enough direct damage to single targets.

Scatter Shot has horrible range(10m) and does not do enough direct damage to be a primary filler.

Snipe does more than enough damage but has a 1s interruptable cast time that snares you while casting. Has almost a 3s flight time and telegraphs its attack with audio sound.

Also all attacks are counted as projectiles so they become useless versus a Magicka DK or S&B build. While being greatly diminished against Shuffle/dodgeroll spammers and stamina DK's, long flight time on all skills means with any higher latency you will not be able to hit a Shuffle/dodgeroll spammer.

I and many other bow users would love for that to be changed, I would like a more responsive flight time on both snipe and my heavy attacks. Most people animation cancel but what most don't realize is that a fully charged heavy attack from the bow travels so much slower that if you animation cancel it with Poison Injection/Silver Shards or many other skills against someone riding on a horse, often they get hit by the skill but then dismount and dodgeroll/reflect the heavy attack.

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

@Vythri

Don't worry when Zos implements dueling/battle grounds all the bow nay-sayers will realize how irrelevant it is outside of ganking.

Vythri wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Don't worry when Zos implements dueling/battle grounds all the bow nay-sayers will realize how irrelevant it is outside of ganking.

Bow is very good for the speed boost after rolling. It's useful for positioning during duels as well. Further the Master's Bow which is being updated to CR160 in the next update increases weapon damage on a target effected by Poison Injection, and this does not drop on weapon swap. It was widely considered the best bow to use before VR16 out-dated it. PI's base damage was buffed, and it now scales with Mighty, it's very strong in PVP current. Little reason to think that will not continue.

If you want to change things about bow, you will not get anywhere by misrepresenting the truth of how it is used. Its a solid seconadary weapon ganking or not, pretending that's not true is highly unlikely to get ZOS to rework bow into a primary weapon.

I think the goal is to not have it be a secondary weapon, but a primary weapon. All of your points prove that fact.

dday3six wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

@Vythri

Don't worry when Zos implements dueling/battle grounds all the bow nay-sayers will realize how irrelevant it is outside of ganking.

Bow is very good for the speed boost after rolling. It's useful for positioning during duels as well. Further the Master's Bow which is being updated to CR160 in the next update increases weapon damage on a target effected by Poison Injection, and this does not drop on weapon swap. It was widely considered the best bow to use before VR16 out-dated it. PI's base damage was buffed, and it now scales with Mighty, it's very strong in PVP current. Little reason to think that will not continue.

If you want to change things about bow, you will not get anywhere by misrepresenting the truth of how it is used. Its a solid seconadary weapon ganking or not, pretending that's not true is highly unlikely to get ZOS to rework bow into a primary weapon.

Birdovic wrote: »

Azor_Ahaii wrote: »

Snipe is the easiest skill do dodge in a game. Even if then person who use snipe fires from health, you can hear the arrow and you can easily dodge roll. If you try using snipe against good players, the snipe will not even land once (unless the enemy is using a magicka build), they always will easily dodge it.

If game lags you hear the Snipe, but no damage is hitting you, then after some seconds you're hit by 3-5 of that, and you only know that because you instantly drop dead.
Its nothing you can do against if the lag is acting up again.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Arrow Barrage and Poison Injection could be easily fixed with somewhat of the same solution:

Arrow Barrage: Either up the damage and make it channeled so that you have to stay on bow bar. Or add a modifier that requires you to have a bow slotted as your active weapon in order to do damage with this skill. It simply does not make sense to be raining arrows down on someone while you are stabbing them with a sword.

Poison Injection: Change the additional execute damage modifier to only work while a bow is actively slotted. Swapping bars would keep the Dot on the target but you would lose the execute effect.

dday3six wrote: »

If you want to remove that might as well drop us down to one weapon since swapping would be punished by such negatives.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Arrow Barrage and Poison Injection could be easily fixed with somewhat of the same solution:

Arrow Barrage: Either up the damage and make it channeled so that you have to stay on bow bar. Or add a modifier that requires you to have a bow slotted as your active weapon in order to do damage with this skill. It simply does not make sense to be raining arrows down on someone while you are stabbing them with a sword.

Poison Injection: Change the additional execute damage modifier to only work while a bow is actively slotted. Swapping bars would keep the Dot on the target but you would lose the execute effect.

a fantasy game, none of it makes sense when looked into deep enough, and it's not suppose to.

Those skills don't need to be fixed, they're fine. It's A synergy exist between weapon swaps. Buffs remain active between weapons. This allows kits to feel like that have a sense of cohension. If you want to remove that might as well drop us down to one weapon since swapping would be punished by such negatives.

I know right it would be awful if other weapons suffered the same functionality loss that bow does when you swap to use your bow...Synergy exists? You mean a synergy for melee exists between weapon swaps, I think that's what you were trying to say.

What cohesion does DW offer to bow? A pathetic Dot that you have to be in melee range to apply and doesn't compare to anything bow has? A ranged slow that bow already has? Any passives to take advantage of by swapping to DW at range?

2hander has the only real cohesion and that is because of the massively overpowered Rally buff/heal that ZOS has not figured out how to balance around. 2H offers nothing in the way of passive bonus' comparable to bow's dodge roll as you actually have to be in range of the target to use any of 2H's passives effectively. Crit charge works wonderfully if you are melee and want to open with a bow and then gap close but it works counter to the bows entire tool kit from a bow perspective.

No the bow offers massive synergy for melee, melee does not offer even close to the same utility and synergy back to the bow. The Bow's execute in Poison Injection is ridiculously overpowered and works to benefit melee builds more than it benefits ranged, due to the fact that it can be used in concert with melee executes.

This is exactly what I want to highlight, melee builds get all of the primary benefits of the bow in its current function without having to run around shooting a bow. They just put it on their back bar and do quick weapon swaps for "buffs".

Bow's cant be equal citizens because they would be "too strong" but they cannot get some exclusivity because the elite upper class weapons would lose the huge bonus they are getting by using a bow on the back bar.

In the current design most if not all of the melee weapon skills are designed to offer little benefit if slotted as a back bar buff. They offer great power when used on the primary bar but little benefit when used to buff before swapping. While the bow skill line offers huge benefit as a back bar buff, dodge roll speed increase, two massive Dots, including a passive execute buff.

Any and all suggestions for balance are going to be met with staunch resistance not from the magicka side but from the melee stamina builds that do not want to lose their incredibly beneficial back bar buff weapon.