The Toxic Root Meta in Alliance War / PvP

Navitas · June 2016

So as I'm sure we've all read there was a ton of pvp changes going on in this new release, glad to see honor guards were the target of the nerf hammer this time because they've solo wiped my group so much before. On a more serious note, I feel like the main thing that has to be addressed right now is the current state of group vs group pvp which has turned into "who can spam more roots on the other group inside of negates." Normally this causes no issue but with the way that purge is working right now I feel some things need addressing, first of all Purge:

Needs to be able to hit more than the first 6 members of your group, makes half of your group completely screwed and in cases of pact militia about 7/8th of your group screwed.
With the introduction of poisons adding so many new debuffs to you and status effects, it's become near impossible to purge any roots/snares off of you without spamming the ability 4 or 5 times and by then they've already been reapplied.
Possible fixes: give immunity to the same form of cc being applied to you for x amount of seconds? Or just purge more than a base of 2 negative effects off of you which is near usless when my half my screen is covered in debuffs (thanks for making poisons apply on bombard btw that really helps out trying to cleanse it off of you) from the stam zergs literally rolling around out there. Another idea would be to make purge prioritize roots and other disabling effects.

Now then, moving onto what I feel like are the main offender of this root situation: bombard (and encase but I feel that bombard is a much larger problem since everyone has acces to it). This is where I feel like it may be tricky to do some balancing. I would like to see some form of root immunity put into the game possibly where if the same root is applied to you over and over you start to see some diminishing returns on the duration of the cc until eventually it doesn't work at all on you. One issue I could possibly see arise would be with DK talons, god knows mDK doesn't need anymore nerfs, however I still feel that this swing towards just completly immobilizing a small group and overwhelming them with numbers is a very aggravating thing for players who are trying to fight groups two or three times their size. Not to mention with all the insane stam buffs going on this kind of gameplay only buffs those groups more since they can easily sustain roll dodging out of these roots, however the magicka classes with 13k stamina and a purge that rarely ever works are just completely screwed.

So now we have WTB purge buff and WTB root immunities out of the way we can get to a main reason why this is a big issue in PvP which is negates. On their own I feel like the negate change was very healthy for sorcs (who still need spammable class dps abilities but that's a post for another time). Rooting people inside of negates makes sense, it's a good idea tactically so why wouldn't you do it? Again the issue is with having no inherent diminishing returns on spammed abillities or root immunity. While purge works once in a blue moon to cleanse any roots off of you obviously it's useless when you can't cast it inside a negate. I mainly play a mSorc in group PvP, I realize how important negates are to a group dynamic and in a fight, however I'm also a firm believer in the idea of everything needing some kind of counterplay, obviously you can counter negate which I do a lot in order to help the group out when they're trapped in situations where nobody can move inside of negates. Regardless, group pvp battles should not be decided by who has the larger amount of people spamming bombard and negates and anyone who says "Oh, you're outnumbered so you should lose" can go ahead and leave.

My point is: small groups rely on mobility and kiting in order to break apart groups multiple times their size. Fighting guilds where they have 10 people just spamming bombard completely shuts that down and our only counter play is to use a near broken skill (aka Purge), pop rapids and then not do any damage or healing (that's a sure fire way to kill a bunch of people), or just reroll all stamina classes to roll around? I am certain that anyone who runs a smaller sized group of solid players against zergs will say the same things I've repeated here, it's frustrating to deal with in lag especially when everyone who only has to spam one button to lock down a group is completely fine but when you're trying to bar swap every 3 seconds to throw off heals or shield yourself, reapply proxies, buff up, apply your own debuffs to enemy groups and still manage to do damage in the middle of 700 ping, it just makes for an all around salt filled night where you just say *** it and go sit in a tower somewhere to farm. Thank you for taking the time to read this post from a salty (and depressed after not seeing any changes to this in the new update) magicka PvP'er, hopefully some things I've said resonate with people out there who have had these same thoughts in PvP lately.

Zheg · June 2016

We've warned and complained about the root meta since we first saw those TG patch notes on PTS. 3-4 months later we got mist form and a buff to forward momentum. The new PTS patch notes are out and nadda. This will continue to be the meta for another 4-5 months. Yay.

Navitas · June 2016

Zheg wrote: »

We've warned and complained about the root meta since we first saw those TG patch notes on PTS. 3-4 months later we got mist form and a buff to forward momentum. The new PTS patch notes are out and nadda. This will continue to be the meta for another 4-5 months. Yay.

It's terrible and I feel dirty ever slotting encase on my sorc but there's no reason not to do so in places like keep defenses or anywhere with a choke point.

Ghost-Shot · June 2016

Navitas wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

We've warned and complained about the root meta since we first saw those TG patch notes on PTS. 3-4 months later we got mist form and a buff to forward momentum. The new PTS patch notes are out and nadda. This will continue to be the meta for another 4-5 months. Yay.

It's terrible and I feel dirty ever slotting encase on my sorc but there's no reason not to do so in places like keep defenses or anywhere with a choke point.

The only acceptable aoe roots IMO are the ones that require you to be in the middle of a group, its what has made talons amazing for so long. But why bother with one of my iconic class abilities when one can simply put on a bow and safely sit back away from the line of fire and apply a stacking root. Great game play @Wrobel, really nice job. I survived the lighting patch, I survived the slideshow that was 1.6, I survived my favorite class being neutered in 2.1, but you have finally made me not want to log in.

Navitas · June 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Navitas wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

We've warned and complained about the root meta since we first saw those TG patch notes on PTS. 3-4 months later we got mist form and a buff to forward momentum. The new PTS patch notes are out and nadda. This will continue to be the meta for another 4-5 months. Yay.

It's terrible and I feel dirty ever slotting encase on my sorc but there's no reason not to do so in places like keep defenses or anywhere with a choke point.

The only acceptable aoe roots IMO are the ones that require you to be in the middle of a group, its what has made talons amazing for so long. But why bother with one of my iconic class abilities when one can simply put on a bow and safely sit back away from the line of fire and apply a stacking root. Great game play @Wrobel, really nice job. I survived the lighting patch, I survived the slideshow that was 1.6, I survived my favorite class being neutered in 2.1, but you have finally made me not want to log in.

Completely agree with that, talons sets itself apart by requiring an effort from the user. Things like being able to stand 20 meters away and do the same thing with a relatively no risk (except once the group shouts "kill the bowtard spamming bombard" and everyone focuses you) and all reward factor just lends itself to this easy one button pressing gameplay that this meta has devolved into.

Telel · June 2016

Other than Telel's usual 'leave mah bombard alone' spiel they'd just like to point out that every build khajiit seems to try becomes 'the cheese meta' six to eight months later.

Which is why this one is now making a double 2hder build incorporating brawler, reverse slice, Morihaus, and ....oh let's say shades.

Also, nerf prox det blobs.

Navitas · June 2016

Telel wrote: »

Other than Telel's usual 'leave mah bombard alone' spiel they'd just like to point out that every build khajiit seems to try becomes 'the cheese meta' six to eight months later.

Which is why this one is now making a double 2hder build incorporating brawler, reverse slice, Morihaus, and ....oh let's say shades.

Also, nerf prox det blobs.

Prox det has already been nerfed a lot this patch, please dear god leave it alone Q_Q

Telel · June 2016

Navitas wrote: »

Telel wrote: »

Other than Telel's usual 'leave mah bombard alone' spiel they'd just like to point out that every build khajiit seems to try becomes 'the cheese meta' six to eight months later.

Which is why this one is now making a double 2hder build incorporating brawler, reverse slice, Morihaus, and ....oh let's say shades.

Also, nerf prox det blobs.

Prox det has already been nerfed a lot this patch, please dear god leave it alone Q_Q

Never! it plus stun and rapids spam are still Khajiit's number three cause of death.

The first being three templars with newb beam. The second being people exploiting the malfunctioning nature of the cloak skill.

Ironically Bombard is rather low on the list...

Navitas · June 2016

Telel wrote: »

Navitas wrote: »

Telel wrote: »

Other than Telel's usual 'leave mah bombard alone' spiel they'd just like to point out that every build khajiit seems to try becomes 'the cheese meta' six to eight months later.

Which is why this one is now making a double 2hder build incorporating brawler, reverse slice, Morihaus, and ....oh let's say shades.

Also, nerf prox det blobs.

Prox det has already been nerfed a lot this patch, please dear god leave it alone Q_Q

Never! it plus stun and rapids spam are still Khajiit's number three cause of death.

The first being three templars with newb beam. The second being people exploiting the malfunctioning nature of the cloak skill.

Ironically Bombard is rather low on the list...

The root of the problem (heh) to me lies in purge needing a buff of some kind which would probably be the easiest fix to this anyways. It's just a broken skill right now that hardly ever works which is pretty frustrating.

Telel · June 2016

This one began using forward momentum two months ago. Many people told Khajiit they were 'bad' for doing this.

Who's bad now as this one dances around shooting arrows, and using Khajiit's moo armor to bowl you over!?!

Also, in a group situation Telel or one of the pups with good stamina regen, has been given the task of 'dedicated maneuvers monkey'. Their job is to pop Retreating Maneuvers every few seconds, especially during breach assaults, to keep everyone up and moving until we're in a good spot.

So far this has seemed to work well enough in most situations.

However this one could see a short 2 second root immunity being added. To be honest this one could have sworn that was already a thing as Telel personally can't seem to route the same person over and over for whatever reason.

Though that immunity needs to remain separate from any other CC immunity.

SneaK · June 2016

If the lag causing ball groups are stacked so tightly on each other to be hit by encase/bombard and a negate then they deserve to be wiped.

Cody · June 2016

Forward momentum would actually be a good ability to use now, what with the constant snares and what not.

Ghost-Shot · June 2016

SneaK wrote: »

If the lag causing ball groups are stacked so tightly on each other to be hit by encase/bombard and a negate then they deserve to be wiped.

How exactly do you plan to handle the mega zergs when the last of the ball groups call it quits?

Zheg · June 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

If the lag causing ball groups are stacked so tightly on each other to be hit by encase/bombard and a negate then they deserve to be wiped.

How exactly to plan to handle the mega zergs when the last of the ball groups call it quits?

Clearly we're supposed to form a mega zerg of equal or greater numbers. And then we blame the lag on ball groups that left the game. Their lag was so great that the remnants of their one button spam (if that! most of those zerglings couldnt even handle 1 button!) will cause the servers performance issues for years to come. Afterall, those 12 players working together are the problem, and 50 people spread out spamming bombard is the solution.

hammayolettuce · June 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Navitas wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

We've warned and complained about the root meta since we first saw those TG patch notes on PTS. 3-4 months later we got mist form and a buff to forward momentum. The new PTS patch notes are out and nadda. This will continue to be the meta for another 4-5 months. Yay.

It's terrible and I feel dirty ever slotting encase on my sorc but there's no reason not to do so in places like keep defenses or anywhere with a choke point.

The only acceptable aoe roots IMO are the ones that require you to be in the middle of a group, its what has made talons amazing for so long. But why bother with one of my iconic class abilities when one can simply put on a bow and safely sit back away from the line of fire and apply a stacking root. Great game play @Wrobel, really nice job. I survived the lighting patch, I survived the slideshow that was 1.6, I survived my favorite class being neutered in 2.1, but you have finally made me not want to log in.

Okay but also, bombard is the only root I have available to my stamplar and I almost always use it at melee range. I usually duo on my stamplar and sometimes play in slightly larger groups (like 5 people). We can't nerf bombard in a way that will make small scale even less effective. Usually we've only got one negate so it's essential to be able to get that root off in a choke point, negate and ulti dump a larger group. I would be more than happy if ZOS introduced a melee aoe root for stam builds and got rid of bombard altogether, but until then, we have to really think about how the changes proposed are going to affect smaller groups. Right now, bombard is an essential skill.

SneaK · June 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

If the lag causing ball groups are stacked so tightly on each other to be hit by encase/bombard and a negate then they deserve to be wiped.

How exactly to plan to handle the mega zergs when the last of the ball groups call it quits?

Clearly we're supposed to form a mega zerg of equal or greater numbers. And then we blame the lag on ball groups that left the game. Their lag was so great that the remnants of their one button spam (if that! most of those zerglings couldnt even handle 1 button!) will cause the servers performance issues for years to come. Afterall, those 12 players working together are the problem, and 50 people spread out spamming bombard is the solution.

A Mega'er Zerg. Ha, that's a frightening thought. Truthfully I hate the snares and roots probably as much as the OP. But at the same time I hate the stack on crown spam AOE groups too (when I'm not in it). Ball groups need to have a counter, aside from just outnumbering and overwhelming them. Rooting and snaring a ball group that depends on mobility seems like fair counter to be honest.

Ghost-Shot · June 2016

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Navitas wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

We've warned and complained about the root meta since we first saw those TG patch notes on PTS. 3-4 months later we got mist form and a buff to forward momentum. The new PTS patch notes are out and nadda. This will continue to be the meta for another 4-5 months. Yay.

It's terrible and I feel dirty ever slotting encase on my sorc but there's no reason not to do so in places like keep defenses or anywhere with a choke point.

The only acceptable aoe roots IMO are the ones that require you to be in the middle of a group, its what has made talons amazing for so long. But why bother with one of my iconic class abilities when one can simply put on a bow and safely sit back away from the line of fire and apply a stacking root. Great game play @Wrobel, really nice job. I survived the lighting patch, I survived the slideshow that was 1.6, I survived my favorite class being neutered in 2.1, but you have finally made me not want to log in.

Okay but also, bombard is the only root I have available to my stamplar and I almost always use it at melee range. I usually duo on my stamplar and sometimes play in slightly larger groups (like 5 people). We can't nerf bombard in a way that will make small scale even less effective. Usually we've only got one negate so it's essential to be able to get that root off in a choke point, negate and ulti dump a larger group. I would be more than happy if ZOS introduced a melee aoe root for stam builds and got rid of bombard altogether, but until then, we have to really think about how the changes proposed are going to affect smaller groups. Right now, bombard is an essential skill.

I think the main issue with bombard is that the root stacks and most people don't use it from melee range but rather stand back safely out of the line of fire. Maybe a root could be added to cleave and removed from bombard, that way it requires you to be in melee range to root people.

Ghost-Shot · June 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

If the lag causing ball groups are stacked so tightly on each other to be hit by encase/bombard and a negate then they deserve to be wiped.

How exactly to plan to handle the mega zergs when the last of the ball groups call it quits?

Clearly we're supposed to form a mega zerg of equal or greater numbers. And then we blame the lag on ball groups that left the game. Their lag was so great that the remnants of their one button spam (if that! most of those zerglings couldnt even handle 1 button!) will cause the servers performance issues for years to come. Afterall, those 12 players working together are the problem, and 50 people spread out spamming bombard is the solution.

Can confirm the RHM lag switch is still engaged

booksmcread · June 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Navitas wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

We've warned and complained about the root meta since we first saw those TG patch notes on PTS. 3-4 months later we got mist form and a buff to forward momentum. The new PTS patch notes are out and nadda. This will continue to be the meta for another 4-5 months. Yay.

It's terrible and I feel dirty ever slotting encase on my sorc but there's no reason not to do so in places like keep defenses or anywhere with a choke point.

The only acceptable aoe roots IMO are the ones that require you to be in the middle of a group, its what has made talons amazing for so long. But why bother with one of my iconic class abilities when one can simply put on a bow and safely sit back away from the line of fire and apply a stacking root. Great game play @Wrobel, really nice job. I survived the lighting patch, I survived the slideshow that was 1.6, I survived my favorite class being neutered in 2.1, but you have finally made me not want to log in.

Okay but also, bombard is the only root I have available to my stamplar and I almost always use it at melee range. I usually duo on my stamplar and sometimes play in slightly larger groups (like 5 people). We can't nerf bombard in a way that will make small scale even less effective. Usually we've only got one negate so it's essential to be able to get that root off in a choke point, negate and ulti dump a larger group. I would be more than happy if ZOS introduced a melee aoe root for stam builds and got rid of bombard altogether, but until then, we have to really think about how the changes proposed are going to affect smaller groups. Right now, bombard is an essential skill.

I think the main issue with bombard is that the root stacks and most people don't use it from melee range but rather stand back safely out of the line of fire. Maybe a root could be added to cleave and removed from bombard, that way it requires you to be in melee range to root people.

Could put a 10m range on Bombard. That might help a bit. It's not a cure-all, but it would be an improvement.

PosternHouse · June 2016

1. Remove the snare from both morphs of Arrow Spray
2. Let Acid Spray keep its DoT
3. Remove the root from Bombard
4. Compensate by giving it a wider conal area
5. ????
6. Profit

OR

1. Undo the nerf to Rapid Maneuvers, so that groups can buff and heal without breaking the immunity
2. FIX BLOODY PURGE FOR TALOS' SAKE

Armitas · June 2016

I think if they make bombard break on any damage then it will remain useful solo while also fixing itself when 40 people are spamming it on location. Just make whatever coding considers it a break from damage to linger a half second so that the spam just tells it break break and never root until the spam stops.

hammayolettuce · June 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Navitas wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

We've warned and complained about the root meta since we first saw those TG patch notes on PTS. 3-4 months later we got mist form and a buff to forward momentum. The new PTS patch notes are out and nadda. This will continue to be the meta for another 4-5 months. Yay.

It's terrible and I feel dirty ever slotting encase on my sorc but there's no reason not to do so in places like keep defenses or anywhere with a choke point.

The only acceptable aoe roots IMO are the ones that require you to be in the middle of a group, its what has made talons amazing for so long. But why bother with one of my iconic class abilities when one can simply put on a bow and safely sit back away from the line of fire and apply a stacking root. Great game play @Wrobel, really nice job. I survived the lighting patch, I survived the slideshow that was 1.6, I survived my favorite class being neutered in 2.1, but you have finally made me not want to log in.

Okay but also, bombard is the only root I have available to my stamplar and I almost always use it at melee range. I usually duo on my stamplar and sometimes play in slightly larger groups (like 5 people). We can't nerf bombard in a way that will make small scale even less effective. Usually we've only got one negate so it's essential to be able to get that root off in a choke point, negate and ulti dump a larger group. I would be more than happy if ZOS introduced a melee aoe root for stam builds and got rid of bombard altogether, but until then, we have to really think about how the changes proposed are going to affect smaller groups. Right now, bombard is an essential skill.

I think the main issue with bombard is that the root stacks and most people don't use it from melee range but rather stand back safely out of the line of fire. Maybe a root could be added to cleave and removed from bombard, that way it requires you to be in melee range to root people.

I get what the issue is, but the problem is that removing the root as a proposed solution defeats the entire point of the skill. Get rid of the snare? Fine. Get rid of the damage? Fine. Give it the streak treatment? Ok by me. I agree that the root shouldn't be able to stack- I'm even fine with adding a root immunity, so long as it's not just added on with the same immunity on hard CCs. I would totally use cleave if it had a root.

PosternHouse wrote: »

OR

1. Undo the nerf to Rapid Maneuvers, so that groups can buff and heal without breaking the immunity
2. FIX BLOODY PURGE FOR TALOS' SAKE

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

Sanct16 · June 2016

What do you mean with "the root stacks" ?

Navitas · June 2016

The issue with bombard right now is more just that you can't remove the effect off of yourself reliably aka please dear god buff / fix purge & rapids. I'd be totally fine with it if I could counter it but as it is now as soon as you get one bombard on you with 3 different poisons debuffs and then all the other debuffs from the zerg it's impossible to purge.

We can't nerf bombard in a way that will make small scale even less effective. Usually we've only got one negate so it's essential to be able to get that root off in a choke point, negate and ulti dump a larger group.

I agree snu, I'm not calling for a total rip bombard to shreds and make it utterly useless, I just want a better counter to it.

Ghost-Shot · June 2016

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Navitas wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

We've warned and complained about the root meta since we first saw those TG patch notes on PTS. 3-4 months later we got mist form and a buff to forward momentum. The new PTS patch notes are out and nadda. This will continue to be the meta for another 4-5 months. Yay.

It's terrible and I feel dirty ever slotting encase on my sorc but there's no reason not to do so in places like keep defenses or anywhere with a choke point.

The only acceptable aoe roots IMO are the ones that require you to be in the middle of a group, its what has made talons amazing for so long. But why bother with one of my iconic class abilities when one can simply put on a bow and safely sit back away from the line of fire and apply a stacking root. Great game play @Wrobel, really nice job. I survived the lighting patch, I survived the slideshow that was 1.6, I survived my favorite class being neutered in 2.1, but you have finally made me not want to log in.

Okay but also, bombard is the only root I have available to my stamplar and I almost always use it at melee range. I usually duo on my stamplar and sometimes play in slightly larger groups (like 5 people). We can't nerf bombard in a way that will make small scale even less effective. Usually we've only got one negate so it's essential to be able to get that root off in a choke point, negate and ulti dump a larger group. I would be more than happy if ZOS introduced a melee aoe root for stam builds and got rid of bombard altogether, but until then, we have to really think about how the changes proposed are going to affect smaller groups. Right now, bombard is an essential skill.

I think the main issue with bombard is that the root stacks and most people don't use it from melee range but rather stand back safely out of the line of fire. Maybe a root could be added to cleave and removed from bombard, that way it requires you to be in melee range to root people.

I get what the issue is, but the problem is that removing the root as a proposed solution defeats the entire point of the skill. Get rid of the snare? Fine. Get rid of the damage? Fine. Give it the streak treatment? Ok by me. I agree that the root shouldn't be able to stack- I'm even fine with adding a root immunity, so long as it's not just added on with the same immunity on hard CCs. I would totally use cleave if it had a root.

PosternHouse wrote: »

OR

1. Undo the nerf to Rapid Maneuvers, so that groups can buff and heal without breaking the immunity
2. FIX BLOODY PURGE FOR TALOS' SAKE

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

I would absolutely support reverting the changes to rapids but I think we all know that its the type of change that they don't go back on.

HoloYoitsu · June 2016

Bombard's persisting existance in the state it is in is an example of Wrobel's incompetence as a game designer, that's all there is to it.

Bombard has always had the root, but it was fine and balanced by the fact that Rapids was not group bound, and only broke on using dmg abilities. This meant that as much as you could spam bombard, your opponents could spam (the more costly Rapids) and counter you from perma CCing them. Check-and-balance.

Nerfing Rapids and Purge was one thing, but it should have never been done without considering the consequences that removing those checks would have on other skills. This is classic Wrobel. His core approach to "game balance" here has been no different from when he removed soft caps in 1.6 and I could suddenly blink 42 times in a row. Or the infinite dodge rolling.

So if past history is anything to judge by, you can expect that either Bombard will be "balanced" by being completely destroyed, or it will be made more OP by additional changes to the game that simply exacerbate it's strengths as Wrobel continues in his self proclaimed crusade on the count of "we don't want ball groups running around".

Of course the obvious solution would be to remove the root and snare from bombard completely, and give that type of CC to a S/B skill line ability that could function similar to Talons - by which I mean, actually require you to be next to the people you are CCing.

FearlessOne_2014 · June 2016

Reading this forum tread I just have to say No No NO NO! Leave bombard alone. Actually give players more tools to deal with people who just mindlessly zerg to achieve a objective. As for me I've been on all sides of the fence in this case. While running as a zergling. I just feel like if wasn't for the tactical gameplay smaller groups use luring zergs into choke point to root plus negate plus Ulti dump equal RIP. Zergs would just be unstoppable unless you threw more numbers at them if ZOS got rid of this.

As a solo to small group member (4 to 6) players I find there is little that can be done about the zerglings. Other then just stalling them till you own zerg appears. Zerg balling has become the "be all and end", and rightfully so as there is no cons to zerg balling other then lag. Zergs are a problem because of all of the nerfs to anti-zergling abilities. In a zerg vs a few players what is likely the case because, zerging only requires skill and command and control from it's leader, the rest of the zerg can be potatoes that just face roll their keyboard against smaller numbers.

I would be fine with them getting rid of ranged roots only if ZOS.....
1.) Completely Remove AOE Caps(If this was to happen nothing would really change for the zerglings. However the solo and small group players can now somewhat with superior tactics, gear, and awareness can deal with or even just harass a zerg.)
2.) Make forward Camps cost 50k - 100k AP so zerglings just can't spam it.(This alone would help out small groups, as I find that a zerg of potatoes make much much much less AP then a coordinated group of 4 to 6 players.)
3.) Gave solo players and small groups more tools to deal with zerg-balls. (Out zerging the enemy should not be the only tactic on the battlefield.)

At the end of the day I'm pretty sure that ZOS are happy with the current status of zergs being damn near close "The be all and end all" to all battles in Cyrodiil. I'm also ok with this but, damn it ZOS, stop nerfing what little tools we have as solo to small group players to tickle or even annoy the current zerg balls.

FYI ZOS, of course in this matter more players are going to co-sign on "get rid of anti-zerg tools." As most of the players in this game are to put it simply, are just follow the leader and faceroll keyboard against force of inferior numbers" type players. They are happy with that and that's perfectly fine. There just needs to be a big enoth counter to zergs that will put coordinated smaller groups at the same or even close to combat efficiency as the 40 plus man blobs steam rolling the maps these days.

RinaldoGandolphi · June 2016

Everyone knows how i feel about Bombard(The root and needs to be removed and replaced with Minor Fracture and Minor Breech making it a solid group skill and increases DPS of whole group, can probably leave the snare i guess....i'd prefer they remove the snare too and add some damage but whatever)

Point is Talons and Encase require the user to be in melee range and with that comes serious risks and a nose dive in survivability, especially in the case of Light Armor MDK and to an extent Sorcs.

Bombard users can sit comfortably some 20+ meters away and spam a giant AOE Cone attack and perma-root people...this needs to change.

Zheg · June 2016

@FearlessOne_2014 In no way does bombard benefit the small group more than the zerg when both are using it. Small groups can still bomb in chokes just fine. We've killed plenty of blue and red zergs without bombard. If anything, mobility is what smaller groups always relied on to take out the zerg and that was gutted with the rapid maneuvers nerf in TG. Bombard spam always benefits the side with obscene numbers, even moreso when they just spread out and start twanging nonstop. Wrobel at least realizes this meta is a problem because otherwise he wouldnt have done the mist form and forward momentum changes. Unfortunately he either thinks its good enough now or doesnt know what else to do because theyre so adamantly anti-group that theyd rather promote the mega zerg than give groups back a functional rapid maneuvers. Either way we're stuck with this garbage meta for probably at least another 4.5 months - the patch notes on pts have almost zero combat/balance changes.

hammayolettuce · June 2016

Zheg wrote: »

@FearlessOne_2014 In no way does bombard benefit the small group more than the zerg when both are using it. Small groups can still bomb in chokes just fine. We've killed plenty of blue and red zergs without bombard. If anything, mobility is what smaller groups always relied on to take out the zerg and that was gutted with the rapid maneuvers nerf in TG. Bombard spam always benefits the side with obscene numbers, even moreso when they just spread out and start twanging nonstop. Wrobel at least realizes this meta is a problem because otherwise he wouldnt have done the mist form and forward momentum changes. Unfortunately he either thinks its good enough now or doesnt know what else to do because theyre so adamantly anti-group that theyd rather promote the mega zerg than give groups back a functional rapid maneuvers. Either way we're stuck with this garbage meta for probably at least another 4.5 months - the patch notes on pts have almost zero combat/balance changes.

Then how come the small group players are the only ones that want to keep the root on bombard? I'm sorry, but VE doesn't count as a small group and you can't say that bombard doesn't help small groups defeat zergs because, speaking from personal experience, yes it does.

Zheg · June 2016

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

@FearlessOne_2014 In no way does bombard benefit the small group more than the zerg when both are using it. Small groups can still bomb in chokes just fine. We've killed plenty of blue and red zergs without bombard. If anything, mobility is what smaller groups always relied on to take out the zerg and that was gutted with the rapid maneuvers nerf in TG. Bombard spam always benefits the side with obscene numbers, even moreso when they just spread out and start twanging nonstop. Wrobel at least realizes this meta is a problem because otherwise he wouldnt have done the mist form and forward momentum changes. Unfortunately he either thinks its good enough now or doesnt know what else to do because theyre so adamantly anti-group that theyd rather promote the mega zerg than give groups back a functional rapid maneuvers. Either way we're stuck with this garbage meta for probably at least another 4.5 months - the patch notes on pts have almost zero combat/balance changes.

Then how come the small group players are the only ones that want to keep the root on bombard? I'm sorry, but VE doesn't count as a small group and you can't say that bombard doesn't help small groups defeat zergs because, speaking from personal experience, yes it does.

Are you serious? Go listen to a pact militia stream or watch any fight in TF and then try telling me that again. You're a knowledgeable player, but all I can do is go "wtf" at that comment. You may use it effectively and likely how it's supposed to be used, but every single mega zerg that's been created since TG spreads out and spams it nonstop. They want it to stay in game far more than your 2-4 man.

Also, many of our groups have been 8-12 in size this month, fighting sometimes 40+ blue and red. You're not as up to speed as you'd like to think. And I never said it doesn't help kill zergs, I said that when both are using bombard (which they always are) it always benefits zergs more than a small man. You really have no leg to stand on arguing against that, I'm sorry.