As opposed to the people that just outright slaughter the NPCs in open combat on characters that are apparently going for the high score on the bounty board? Probably once a day I'll be in town and someone will just be doing open combat with every NPC they can get their hands on.

It's an MMO, and this sort of thing is bound to happen. I'm more glad that it's possible than I am upset at seeing the results of there being 100 main characters per square mile of Tamriel. It's also an Elder Scrolls game...this sort of thing is bound to happen.

BenLocoDete wrote: »

thisisScoMan wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

thisisScoMan wrote: »

Just getting locked up on purpose, sitting in a cell singing "Nobody knows the trouble I've seen, nobody knows my sorrow"

A new emote????

Maybe they could add the harmonica as a playable instrument. That would work too.

Maybe after you spend X amount of time locked up you get a personality...

I like the idea of personalities being based on doing set tasks first.

Lysette wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Kenthros wrote: »

Really I would like to see a system for the crimes put in that kinda works like The Division. Agents that attacked other players became rogue and showed up on the map, giving incentives to other players to hunt them down. While on the flip side giving incentives for the rogue or rogues to stay alive and escape. I think a system like that would be awesome to help combat the crimes that we witness but can do nothing about. This is just a rough idea and tweaks would have to be made I think, but all and all if something like that was put in i think that would be pretty fun.

Put them in jail for some time - as long as they are imprisoned, they cannot murder - simple as that - it does not take pvp activity,which just would add misery.

If you put them in jail they can just switch to one of their other characters and keep doing it.Also who would arrest them and put them in jail the guards?If its the guards the jail cells will be as empty as a hollow tree no one with be their because the guards as so easily to get away from.Players should be the one to arrest you and put you into prison so you can't escape.

There will be no pvp justice system, when do you get this?- it would make the issue just worse.

Edit. and it is absolutely no problem to implement that - guards get a new spell and you are in prison, simple as that.

No it wouldn't it would actually fixed the issue because right now its nothing stopping people from breaking the law.Also this would be PVP in the sense that the other player has to knock you unconscious to arrest you.be it by a ability only player guards have or through battle.It also allow criminal a chance to escape.

Then players will complain about not being able to escape from the immortals guards.This will just cause ZOS to revert the change since it be unbalanced.

ZOS will not be that stupid to go against the majority of players - and those are not into PvP at all - they do not want to see or interfere with pvp activity. ZOS would shoot into their own foot, if they would alienate the majority of their player base.

How can you claim you know what majority of the game want?Or how do you know the majority of players would be against this?Every poll we had the wide majority of players voted for PVP justice system.Your assuming it would alienate only you and your friends you have nothing to back up your information while every poll we had on the forums on the subject proved you wrong.

Well, this is in every MMO about the same, even in EVE, where all is pvp - 80% of characters are not taking part in the alliance wars in null-sec. It is simply a fact, that the majority is not into open pvp - EVE is all pvp, but there are rules to it in high security space, where the majority of players is and rarely leaves it. Open pvp is not what the majority wants.

Edit. a forum poll means basically nothing, it is not representative for the community in a whole.

I am not against pvp at all - I am just against pvp polluting the atmosphere in PvE zones, it would just kill the character of the game. PvP is best ghettoed in Cyrrodil, that was a splendid idea, to wall them in and not let them spread out their toxic behavior to the rest of the world. With One Tamriel the game goes clearly into cooperative gameplay - and Cyrrodil stays like it is - for now, but this could change as well.

PVP justice/Enforcer system ISN'T open PVP. You have to do something voluntarily to participate. You have to join the enforcer guild to hunt down criminals and you have to get a really high bounty to become wanted by the enforcers.

It's supposed to account for the fact that someone with that high of a bounty obviously doesn't see the PVE guards as much of a deterrent for crime. Crime is supposed to have risk involved in it and if the PVE guards aren't enough risk, then more risk needs to be added. Crime isn't supposed to be just free money.

VodkaVixen1979 wrote: »

disintegr8 wrote: »

I had not put 2 and 2 together - I have been noticing more dead bodies than usual around towns but it did not even occur to me that if was for DB (on console here).

I am sure it will settle down to a 'normal' level once the initial rush is over. Maybe I should start on TG while everyone is busy on DB and then when I get to DB it won't be as crazy as it probably is now.

@disintegr8

That is actually a great idea to do TG before DB. Not only will it die down, but the TG skill line is REALLY helpful when doing DB, especially the quickly forgotten skill which lowers your bounty faster. Also you get leniency edits which reduce your bounty by a certain dollar amount. I have the one from the TG that forgives $100,000 bounty, but I can't imagine what I could do to incur such a bounty... killing everyone in Wayrest? Happy playing...

I built a character up from a very low level (out of coldharbor) to his 20's by doing the Dark Brotherhood questline, and had no difficulty doing so. In fact, the character still has most of the questline to complete because I focused on doing contracts and sacraments (I wanted to have all the cool DB passives during the storyline). While the thieves guild passives most certainly make the job EASIER it isn't a need really. By the way this character also is not a bosmer or khajiit. While there are many choices (Sets, races, medium armor, potions, etc) that you can make that can make the job easier, its possible to do everything without it. The only area where I really see it impossible to score top notch with regularity is with sacraments - if you're not a nightblade you really do need potions and there are some confining factors here, a large reason why I really feel there needs to be an out of class cloak available to all, particularly now that they've more or less given nightblade the full toolkit (by the way not something I'm averse to). If I had it my way though the entire class system as it exists would merely be the beginning of a game that opens us up to all skill lines (like the last major Elder Scrolls games that came before it).

Lysette wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

BenLocoDete wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

Players should be able to "witness" a crime, if a murder goes off within line of sight of them within a range comparable to NPC vision, a prompt should pop up to "report crime to the guard" or "turn a blind eye"

Awesome!!!! I want this in the Justice System!!

.

This would also be abused by players, making them just as bad or worse. Could lead to people stalking people and blackmailing them, aka griefing.

There are plenty of griefing in Cyrodiil, don't really get why it should be left outside the game 'per se'.
Also, this is what makes Cyrodiil challenging and exciting and not absurdly boring as looting weak and dumb NPCs.

You don't know what griefing is do you? Allow me to enlighten you:

Griefing: MMO term for causing grief to other players by means of inappropriate behavior such as stalking, blackmailing, or being generally disruptive and finding ways that prevent someone from enjoying or even progressing in the game.

And just to add this, actual griefing is not part of the game, but forbidden by the terms of service.

I meant leave the report crime system out of the game because of possible griefing. No MMO is grief free, and as far as I know, and just like @Lysette mentioned, it goes against the TOS, so it can and should be reported.

Now you are telling me people will report other players for "griefing" and put in the reason box: "because I want to steal from the market and kill civilians and X player is calling the guards?"

This argument is unacceptable.

Let me put an example of how completely unreasonable this seems to me:
There is a really awful atmosphere breaking any story the game intends to tell because the criminal system was roughly dumped into a peaceful ambiance. It is just not finished, and it is right in our faces! It is horrible, it only inspires me to actually break the game, because I'm rewarded for doing that.

So my question to you is why is anything presented to inhibit this behavior called "bad it can cause grief".

Lysette wrote: »

BenLocoDete wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

BenLocoDete wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

Players should be able to "witness" a crime, if a murder goes off within line of sight of them within a range comparable to NPC vision, a prompt should pop up to "report crime to the guard" or "turn a blind eye"

Awesome!!!! I want this in the Justice System!!

.

This would also be abused by players, making them just as bad or worse. Could lead to people stalking people and blackmailing them, aka griefing.

There are plenty of griefing in Cyrodiil, don't really get why it should be left outside the game 'per se'.
Also, this is what makes Cyrodiil challenging and exciting and not absurdly boring as looting weak and dumb NPCs.

You don't know what griefing is do you? Allow me to enlighten you:

Griefing: MMO term for causing grief to other players by means of inappropriate behavior such as stalking, blackmailing, or being generally disruptive and finding ways that prevent someone from enjoying or even progressing in the game.

And just to add this, actual griefing is not part of the game, but forbidden by the terms of service.

I meant leave the report crime system out of the game because of possible griefing. No MMO is grief free, and as far as I know, and just like @Lysette mentioned, it goes against the TOS, so it can and should be reported.

Now you are telling me people will report other players for "griefing" and put in the reason box: "because I want to steal from the market and kill civilians and X player is calling the guards?"

This argument is unacceptable.

Let me put an example of how completely unreasonable this seems to me:

- I'm investigating a vanishing, where a certain character suddenly disappeared from town and none knows why or what happened to him. But everyone just keep to their business until the player character finds his body, then the people who knew him starts to feel uneasy.

This is a setup scenario for an intriguing plot surrounding a deep conspiracy. It grows in interested as you speak to the people who knew the victim and it increases the ambiance of the quest.

But now let me put it in a way that is more coherent with my current gameplay:

- I was approached by a dog, barking at me running over a dead body, and there is another dead body in the plaza, and a guard walking around, Oh, I see a guard fighting a killer, he's down... his ghost wanders 10 feet and resurrects and, and the dog is still at me barking and seems to be trying to get my att- oops there is that killer again just murdered the same farmer from 20 seconds ago and the dog doesn't seem to let me off and there comes the guard, and the killer escapes and I can hear some far away screaming "Why are you doing that?" oh and there is just about corpses in the plaza, several clones they all look the same and, dog is barking - and there is that killer again, murdered another citizen. Guards all around... WHY CAN'T I JUST KILL THIS DOG!?!?! Meanwhile a lady sweeps the entrance of her house...

I understand this is a fair afternoon at the Glenumbra's plaza but my point is, why should I care if there is a body laying around when there seem to be hundreds about everywhere? And none gives a damn about it, and the guards can't get rid of the criminals, meanwhile everyone is about to die.

I'm griefing right now, I find this behavior abusive and is the reason I can't keep logged for more than 5 minutes trying to get into the "storytelling" the game advertises upon, is because all I see is "Trolltelling", people exploiting a flawed game mechanic.

There is a really awful atmosphere breaking any story the game intends to tell because the criminal system was roughly dumped into a peaceful ambiance. It is just not finished, and it is right in our faces! It is horrible, it only inspires me to actually break the game, because I'm rewarded for doing that.

So my question to you is why is anything presented to inhibit this behavior called "bad it can cause grief".

It is more about that the majority in pretty much any MMO - even when it is a pvp MMO - is not fond of this aspect of the game and this goes even more for ESO - the pvp crowd is for certain not the majority, because it requires to be competitive and there is no scaling possible to it, which would allow someone with lesser skills to compete in any way - so this is elite only basically and elite would not be elite, if those would be the majority - so most do not want to see pvp and want that out of their sight. A justice system like suggested would have this back right into their very face and they would simply hate it.

Edit. the IC DLC was a test to see if that can be mixed - and you see how this turned out.

I don't know I've never been to IC and hardly to Cyrodiil so PvP is not what I'm advocating for, but for a smooth experience where I don't need to fake that what is happening is not happening or spend more time finding a reasonable and lore-wise response to why is this happening when it is clearly not even remotely possible to happen in any credible environment.

Give me another fix to address the trolls exploiting a flawed game mechanics and I'm probably sold. Anything that is lore-wise and reasonably possible in a credible environment where I try to immerse myself on, because I believe this is what the game is trying to present or advertising itself as of.

Lysette wrote: »

BenLocoDete wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

BenLocoDete wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

BenLocoDete wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

Players should be able to "witness" a crime, if a murder goes off within line of sight of them within a range comparable to NPC vision, a prompt should pop up to "report crime to the guard" or "turn a blind eye"

Awesome!!!! I want this in the Justice System!!

.

This would also be abused by players, making them just as bad or worse. Could lead to people stalking people and blackmailing them, aka griefing.

There are plenty of griefing in Cyrodiil, don't really get why it should be left outside the game 'per se'.
Also, this is what makes Cyrodiil challenging and exciting and not absurdly boring as looting weak and dumb NPCs.

You don't know what griefing is do you? Allow me to enlighten you:

Griefing: MMO term for causing grief to other players by means of inappropriate behavior such as stalking, blackmailing, or being generally disruptive and finding ways that prevent someone from enjoying or even progressing in the game.

And just to add this, actual griefing is not part of the game, but forbidden by the terms of service.

I meant leave the report crime system out of the game because of possible griefing. No MMO is grief free, and as far as I know, and just like @Lysette mentioned, it goes against the TOS, so it can and should be reported.

Now you are telling me people will report other players for "griefing" and put in the reason box: "because I want to steal from the market and kill civilians and X player is calling the guards?"

This argument is unacceptable.

Let me put an example of how completely unreasonable this seems to me:

- I'm investigating a vanishing, where a certain character suddenly disappeared from town and none knows why or what happened to him. But everyone just keep to their business until the player character finds his body, then the people who knew him starts to feel uneasy.

This is a setup scenario for an intriguing plot surrounding a deep conspiracy. It grows in interested as you speak to the people who knew the victim and it increases the ambiance of the quest.

But now let me put it in a way that is more coherent with my current gameplay:

- I was approached by a dog, barking at me running over a dead body, and there is another dead body in the plaza, and a guard walking around, Oh, I see a guard fighting a killer, he's down... his ghost wanders 10 feet and resurrects and, and the dog is still at me barking and seems to be trying to get my att- oops there is that killer again just murdered the same farmer from 20 seconds ago and the dog doesn't seem to let me off and there comes the guard, and the killer escapes and I can hear some far away screaming "Why are you doing that?" oh and there is just about corpses in the plaza, several clones they all look the same and, dog is barking - and there is that killer again, murdered another citizen. Guards all around... WHY CAN'T I JUST KILL THIS DOG!?!?! Meanwhile a lady sweeps the entrance of her house...

I understand this is a fair afternoon at the Glenumbra's plaza but my point is, why should I care if there is a body laying around when there seem to be hundreds about everywhere? And none gives a damn about it, and the guards can't get rid of the criminals, meanwhile everyone is about to die.

I'm griefing right now, I find this behavior abusive and is the reason I can't keep logged for more than 5 minutes trying to get into the "storytelling" the game advertises upon, is because all I see is "Trolltelling", people exploiting a flawed game mechanic.

There is a really awful atmosphere breaking any story the game intends to tell because the criminal system was roughly dumped into a peaceful ambiance. It is just not finished, and it is right in our faces! It is horrible, it only inspires me to actually break the game, because I'm rewarded for doing that.

So my question to you is why is anything presented to inhibit this behavior called "bad it can cause grief".

It is more about that the majority in pretty much any MMO - even when it is a pvp MMO - is not fond of this aspect of the game and this goes even more for ESO - the pvp crowd is for certain not the majority, because it requires to be competitive and there is no scaling possible to it, which would allow someone with lesser skills to compete in any way - so this is elite only basically and elite would not be elite, if those would be the majority - so most do not want to see pvp and want that out of their sight. A justice system like suggested would have this back right into their very face and they would simply hate it.

Edit. the IC DLC was a test to see if that can be mixed - and you see how this turned out.

I don't know I've never been to IC and hardly to Cyrodiil so PvP is not what I'm advocating for, but for a smooth experience where I don't need to fake that what is happening is not happening or spend more time finding a reasonable and lore-wise response to why is this happening when it is clearly not even remotely possible to happen in any credible environment.

Give me another fix to address the trolls exploiting a flawed game mechanics and I'm probably sold. Anything that is lore-wise and reasonably possible in a credible environment where I try to immerse myself on, because I believe this is what the game is trying to present or advertising itself as of.

I gave the solution already - jail time - maybe even with the feature like it was in other TES games - you got one lock pick only and a quite hard lock - you are not allowed to break the lock - you have to pick it - if you fail, you have to serve your time - and if you succeed you have to retrieve your gear from a box somewhere in the prison - and your bounty will get even higher then.

Now make jail time short - maybe just an hour - but the player has to stay online during serving his time. He will have to experience what the consequences are - but it is as well not that short, that it would make him ignore the fact, that he got jail time.

Totally agree, the whole justice system is awesome if we think that more features can be added to it.
And regarding its implementation, an ideal approach would be:

1. You make stealing and murdering and just about any other criminal activity so hard and unforgiving that it just isn't worth.
2. Then you start to make it rewarding.

But the problem with the actual system is that it seems to be implemented backwards, this is what caused a massive unbalance since it is really easy due to the awful AI, and that DB started to greatly reward you for taking advantage on that.

If we think that whole new features and campaigns can be created out of the Justice System i.e.:
- classic TES breaking out of prison,
- a new personality if you've spent enough time locked in,
Or DLCs to further expand TG and DB:
- rescue a fellow thief* from the jail,
- silence a prisoner*(good old Oblivion tribute),
- perform the Black Sacrament for people with huge bounties and have the DB send an assassin* after them,
- have bounty hunters* paid to track down famous criminals,
*Note that none of these would require PvP, just plain simple send a strong NPC to track down bandits living with a low profile in the wilderness.

All these suggestions are made in this thread, and in others trying to address very much the same: players with issues about the way the Justice System is presented right now. We must really support the ideas coming out of threads like this.

Now please don't say these can be abused - people stealing and killing will love to live and deal with the notoriety of their crimes, the most interesting part of the justice system is the excitement of really being a criminal. There is no abuse in having more ways to prove we're indeed to be feared.

An it is abhorrent to look at the justice system as it is without a clear sign that it requires further improvements and/or a revamp.

Lysette wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Kenthros wrote: »

Really I would like to see a system for the crimes put in that kinda works like The Division. Agents that attacked other players became rogue and showed up on the map, giving incentives to other players to hunt them down. While on the flip side giving incentives for the rogue or rogues to stay alive and escape. I think a system like that would be awesome to help combat the crimes that we witness but can do nothing about. This is just a rough idea and tweaks would have to be made I think, but all and all if something like that was put in i think that would be pretty fun.

Put them in jail for some time - as long as they are imprisoned, they cannot murder - simple as that - it does not take pvp activity,which just would add misery.

If you put them in jail they can just switch to one of their other characters and keep doing it.Also who would arrest them and put them in jail the guards?If its the guards the jail cells will be as empty as a hollow tree no one with be their because the guards as so easily to get away from.Players should be the one to arrest you and put you into prison so you can't escape.

There will be no pvp justice system, when do you get this?- it would make the issue just worse.

Edit. and it is absolutely no problem to implement that - guards get a new spell and you are in prison, simple as that.

No it wouldn't it would actually fixed the issue because right now its nothing stopping people from breaking the law.Also this would be PVP in the sense that the other player has to knock you unconscious to arrest you.be it by a ability only player guards have or through battle.It also allow criminal a chance to escape.

Then players will complain about not being able to escape from the immortals guards.This will just cause ZOS to revert the change since it be unbalanced.

ZOS will not be that stupid to go against the majority of players - and those are not into PvP at all - they do not want to see or interfere with pvp activity. ZOS would shoot into their own foot, if they would alienate the majority of their player base.

How can you claim you know what majority of the game want?Or how do you know the majority of players would be against this?Every poll we had the wide majority of players voted for PVP justice system.Your assuming it would alienate only you and your friends you have nothing to back up your information while every poll we had on the forums on the subject proved you wrong.

Well, this is in every MMO about the same, even in EVE, where all is pvp - 80% of characters are not taking part in the alliance wars in null-sec. It is simply a fact, that the majority is not into open pvp - EVE is all pvp, but there are rules to it in high security space, where the majority of players is and rarely leaves it. Open pvp is not what the majority wants.

Edit. a forum poll means basically nothing, it is not representative for the community in a whole.

I am not against pvp at all - I am just against pvp polluting the atmosphere in PvE zones, it would just kill the character of the game. PvP is best ghettoed in Cyrrodil, that was a splendid idea, to wall them in and not let them spread out their toxic behavior to the rest of the world. With One Tamriel the game goes clearly into cooperative gameplay - and Cyrrodil stays like it is - for now, but this could change as well.

PVP justice/Enforcer system ISN'T open PVP. You have to do something voluntarily to participate. You have to join the enforcer guild to hunt down criminals and you have to get a really high bounty to become wanted by the enforcers.

It's supposed to account for the fact that someone with that high of a bounty obviously doesn't see the PVE guards as much of a deterrent for crime. Crime is supposed to have risk involved in it and if the PVE guards aren't enough risk, then more risk needs to be added. Crime isn't supposed to be just free money.

It would kill my enjoyment of the game and that of many others, like this thread is clearly showing - we do not want that in the game and neither does ZOS. So all is fine, you can just stop thinking about the justice system, it is not any likely to happen.

Edit. and like I said before, if you want more risk, add a jailtime experience to it - but not pvp action. Jail time with consequences like loosing skills if you fail to break out, was part of pretty much any TES game, there would even be a reason to add jail time to the game. And this time around it could not be cheated by reloading - this would be a considerable experience to enhance this kind of game play.

It'd only kill your enjoyment of the game if you were really really really bad at the gameplay you profess you want to do, and don't pay off your bounty. I mean you'd have to be the worst possible player ever to get busted by PVP players "on accident"

Really the PVP side would make people be more careful about witnesses and not murder in the middle of a crowd of players is all.