Why the Hardcore Gamer Should Not Be Forgotten

Ethromelb14_ESO · June 2016

Hypothetically speaking - It is my belief that if, Zen, were to have separate servers ... one identified for casual players and newbs, and the other for hardcore players, and constants. There would be a clear distinction between the profit from each server. This is my opinion, and nothing more. There are no sites/links referenced. Just a long time player with a lot of experience.

Disclaimer: This thread is not to criticize why people are casuals or hardcore. It's for the purpose of making the advantages and disadvantages to ESO's survival painfully obvious. No one has to cop a plea about how they have a life and better things to do than play ESO all day, otherwise you're just making my point - you are a casual, and not much money can be made off of you. People don't normally invest heavily in to something their not going to do regularly - not to say that there are not casuals that see the occasional vanity item and grab it up immediately, but it's not common.

Casual Server: Would consist of npc damage being low and handicaps being minor for pc; and the server would be less populated. There would be a greater failure rate for clearing dungeons and trials. Purchases from the crown store would be low in numbers, because most of the casuals barely know how to use the store, regardless of its simplicity. There would also be less arguing, and less egos involved.

Among my casual playing friends, I find that they play on the average of 1 to two hours, slowly, and not everyday. I am able to get very little done with these types of players, and to be honest, it's annoying. That would be the casual server. There would be threads of casual players that are posting, complaining that the casual server is dead, and so they decided to make a new character on the hardcore server, but now they feel overwhelmed by the increased threats - can someone help them?

The Hardcore server: Would be filled with experienced players, high difficulty, high damage, heavy pvp, a greater success rate for clearing dungeons and trials, more purchases from the Crown Store, a larger server population that's not huge, but would be more filled and bustling. There would be more conflicts among clashing player personalities. Perhaps egos making some player's experience unpleasant. Nevertheless, these can be gotten around. There would still be more beneficial outlooks that the hardcore server would offer. Such an atmosphere is what keeps players coming back for more.

So why are casuals being catered to, instead? Is this not a conflict of interest? Even if the casual players outnumber the hardcore ones, the earning from such players couldn't possibly be more lucrative. The Hardcore are the ones keeping the game alive. The extremely easy combat system is not sating the Hardcore's desire for a challenge.

I'm sure, Zen, is aware of how lop-sided and devastating dividing these two player-style types would be to ESO, and so here we are sharing the Tamriel world. I just think, Zen, should be careful just how far they go with their nerfing of this non-challenging world.

Voxicity · June 2016

If you want to play ''hardcore'', wear basic gear without enchants and don't spend any CP.

Splitting the player base in such an extreme way would do nothing good for the game.

UltimaJoe777 · June 2016

This thread just screams stereotype. Not all casual gamers are skillless noobs... It would also discriminate further against the players to make seperate servers like this. In fact, a simpler and less offensive way to suggest this is to request different servers of different difficulty, but I know it won't happen.

Elsonso · June 2016

No. One community is better than lots of little communities that cater to special interests.

Divinius · June 2016

There's so many reasons why the split-server idea would never actually pan out the way you are expecting, but I'll just mention the main one:

All the PvE casuals would want to play on the hardcore server to get carried, and all the PvP hardcore players would want to play on the casual server to grief and gank easy kills. It would be a mess.

As for why casuals are being catered to? They DO grossly outnumber the hardcore ones, and your view of which spends more money on crowns is likely completely backwards.

Ethromelb14_ESO · June 2016

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

This thread just screams stereotype. Not all casual gamers are skillless noobs... It would also discriminate further against the players to make seperate servers like this. In fact, a simpler and less offensive way to suggest this is to request different servers of different difficulty, but I know it won't happen.

You're already taking my words out of context. I never said every casual is a newb. I'm speaking of the majority. Sorry if that includes you, but it stands true. Deal with it. Suggesting something that won't happen is futile, and it is therefore the reason why I didn't do that. I'm addressing where and how the game remains successful, and it is not with casual players.

I'm also not saying that being casual has anything to entirely do with skill, but rather preference of play style, pace, difficulty, and time. That is not where the money is.

Darkonflare15 · June 2016

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

It is my belief that if, Zen, were to have separate servers ... one identified for casual players and newbs, and the other for hardcore players, and constants.

Disclaimer: This thread is not to criticize why people are casuals or hardcore. It's for the purpose of making the advantages and disadvantages to ESO's survival painfully obvious. No one has to cop a plea about how they have a life and better things to do than play ESO all day, otherwise you're just making my point - you are a casual, and not much money can be made off of you. People don't normally invest heavily in to something their not going to do regularly - not to say that there are not casuals that see the occasional vanity item and grab it up immediately, but it's not common.

Casual Server: Would consist of npc damage being low and handicaps being minor for pc; and the server would be less populated. There would be a greater failure rate for clearing dungeons and trials. Purchases from the crown store would be low in numbers, because most of the casuals barely know how to use the store, regardless of its simplicity. There would also be less arguing, and less egos involved.

Among my casual playing friends, I find that they play on the average of 1 to two hours, slowly, and not everyday. I am able to get very little done with these types of players, and to be honest, it's annoying. That would be the casual server. There would be threads of casual players that are posting, complaining that the casual server is dead, and so they decided to make a new character on the hardcore server, but now they feel overwhelmed by the increased threats - can someone help them?

The Hardcore server: Would be filled with experienced players, high difficulty, high damage, heavy pvp, a greater success rate for clearing dungeons and trials, more purchases from the Crown Store, a larger server population that's not huge, but would be more filled and bustling. There would be more conflicts among clashing player personalities. Perhaps egos making some player's experience unpleasant. Nevertheless, these can be gotten around. There would still be more beneficial outlooks that the hardcore server would offer. Such an atmosphere is what keeps players coming back for more.

So why are casuals being catered to, instead? Is this not a conflict of interest? Even if the casual players outnumber the hardcore ones, the earning from such players couldn't possibly be more lucrative. The Hardcore are the ones keeping the game alive. The extremely easy combat system is not sating the Hardcore's desire for a challenge.

I'm sure, Zen, is aware of how lop-sided and devastating dividing these two player-style types would be to ESO, and so here we are sharing the Tamriel world. I just think, Zen, should be careful just how far they go with their nerfing of this non-challenging world.

I doubt that any type of player is considered more valuable than another. No matter who Zos caters to they will lose money. No point in making distinctions when you do not have the metics of the game.

Voxicity · June 2016

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

This thread just screams stereotype. Not all casual gamers are skillless noobs... It would also discriminate further against the players to make seperate servers like this. In fact, a simpler and less offensive way to suggest this is to request different servers of different difficulty, but I know it won't happen.

You're already taking my words out of context. I never said every casual is a newb. I'm speaking of the majority. Sorry if that includes you, but it stands true. Deal with it. Suggesting something that won't happen is futile, and it is therefore the reason why I didn't do that. I'm addressing where and how the game remains successful, and it is not with casual players.

I highly disagree. This game is extremely successful amongst casual players.

Ethromelb14_ESO · June 2016

Vox wrote: »

If you want to play ''hardcore'', wear basic gear without enchants and don't spend any CP.

Splitting the player base in such an extreme way would do nothing good for the game.

That's a stupid suggestion and should never be repeated again if you're interested in not giving the wrong impression. Such a suggestion makes the creation of armor and the cool appearances a player wants to have a pointless endeavor, removing a percentage of the joy in the game.

Slurg · June 2016

When I play during peak times, I see lots and lots of characters in the paid DLC zones, wearing crown store costumes and riding crown store mounts, being followed by crown store pets. Most of them have less than 501 CPs on their name tags.

This is anecdotal, I know. But where is your proof that hardcore players (who surely have more than 501 CP by now) as a group spend more money on this game than casuals?

Ethromelb14_ESO · June 2016

Vox wrote: »

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

This thread just screams stereotype. Not all casual gamers are skillless noobs... It would also discriminate further against the players to make seperate servers like this. In fact, a simpler and less offensive way to suggest this is to request different servers of different difficulty, but I know it won't happen.

You're already taking my words out of context. I never said every casual is a newb. I'm speaking of the majority. Sorry if that includes you, but it stands true. Deal with it. Suggesting something that won't happen is futile, and it is therefore the reason why I didn't do that. I'm addressing where and how the game remains successful, and it is not with casual players.

I highly disagree. This game is extremely successful amongst casual players.

Based on what?

wayfarerx · June 2016

I really think people are reading far too much into Matt Firor's comments in the E3 article. No where did he say "Hardcore players are teh lame, casuals are awesome!!!1!1" Case in point, what are we getting in the next patch?

Two new dungeons that, if the IC dungeons are any indicator, will have very difficult veteran modes, at least to start (for the hardcore folks).
Scaling up of all the remaining underleveled endgame activities (for the hardcore folks again).
NO overland, one-shot, OMG faceroll carebear zone or quests (sorry casuals!).
Character customization / race change (really everyone wants this, but the race change is for hardcore min-maxers).

Update 11 is the closest thing we've had to a hardcore-centric update since Craglorn, or maybe IC. Yet there is almost no end to the "Oh noes ZOS doesn't love me because I play every day!" rhetoric. *sigh*

Phinix1 · June 2016

First of all, I think labeling people "hardcore" and "casual noobs" is offensive, does nothing to further your argument, and tends to put people off bothering to read what else you have to say.

With regard to separate servers, there is really no need. If you want to compete on a higher level simply run trials and veteran dungeons with premades that you know are skilled.

Trying to force segregation of the community only creates burnout in the group that rushes through everything, and encourages the abandonment of new players which is not good for the long term health of the game.

It doesn't kill you to help "noobs" to learn mechanics in order to build your raiding roster. If they just don't "get it" after several tries, then don't put them in your core, simple as that. Same as any other game with raiding.

The attempt to over-complicate things by seperating the "elite" from the "noobs" comes off as little more than thinly veiled elitism and generally insulting to the community at large.

My 2 septims.

FloppyFrank · June 2016

Because ZOS only cares about $$$. They don't give a *** about hardcore and long term players. They just wanna sell copies and dlc for the money. If they ain't making money what's the point?

Ethromelb14_ESO · June 2016

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

It is my belief that if, Zen, were to have separate servers ... one identified for casual players and newbs, and the other for hardcore players, and constants.

Disclaimer: This thread is not to criticize why people are casuals or hardcore. It's for the purpose of making the advantages and disadvantages to ESO's survival painfully obvious. No one has to cop a plea about how they have a life and better things to do than play ESO all day, otherwise you're just making my point - you are a casual, and not much money can be made off of you. People don't normally invest heavily in to something their not going to do regularly - not to say that there are not casuals that see the occasional vanity item and grab it up immediately, but it's not common.

Casual Server: Would consist of npc damage being low and handicaps being minor for pc; and the server would be less populated. There would be a greater failure rate for clearing dungeons and trials. Purchases from the crown store would be low in numbers, because most of the casuals barely know how to use the store, regardless of its simplicity. There would also be less arguing, and less egos involved.

Among my casual playing friends, I find that they play on the average of 1 to two hours, slowly, and not everyday. I am able to get very little done with these types of players, and to be honest, it's annoying. That would be the casual server. There would be threads of casual players that are posting, complaining that the casual server is dead, and so they decided to make a new character on the hardcore server, but now they feel overwhelmed by the increased threats - can someone help them?

The Hardcore server: Would be filled with experienced players, high difficulty, high damage, heavy pvp, a greater success rate for clearing dungeons and trials, more purchases from the Crown Store, a larger server population that's not huge, but would be more filled and bustling. There would be more conflicts among clashing player personalities. Perhaps egos making some player's experience unpleasant. Nevertheless, these can be gotten around. There would still be more beneficial outlooks that the hardcore server would offer. Such an atmosphere is what keeps players coming back for more.

So why are casuals being catered to, instead? Is this not a conflict of interest? Even if the casual players outnumber the hardcore ones, the earning from such players couldn't possibly be more lucrative. The Hardcore are the ones keeping the game alive. The extremely easy combat system is not sating the Hardcore's desire for a challenge.

I'm sure, Zen, is aware of how lop-sided and devastating dividing these two player-style types would be to ESO, and so here we are sharing the Tamriel world. I just think, Zen, should be careful just how far they go with their nerfing of this non-challenging world.

I doubt that any type of player is considered more valuable than another. No matter who Zos caters to they will lose money. No point in making distinctions when you do not have the metics of the game.

You're making my point. And don't be fooled by what the devs and such tell us. The game is not as successful as you think. There is a such thing as keeping up morale, even in a game. And the players have to be reassured that the game is doing well and will not die anytime soon, otherwise players will start jumping ship. And obviously, Zen, doesn't want that.

Why do you think that they're coming out with this whole "One Tamriel" gimmick? Trust me, it's not out of the kindness of their heart. Players are assets, and they need to consolidate those assets before they get spread too thin.

Clerics1985 · June 2016

I would add that you are "assuming" the hardcore server would be "more" bustling but the Hardcore PVE players are going to be on a Casual server because they aren't going to want to *** with PVP much if at All

Please toss your attention to SWTOR and their PVE/PVP servers.

Both servers where Bustling there for a while AND THEN the hardcore players started moving to all the PVE servers because "there's better que's more chance to get in a fight etc."

Imo PVE personalities are more than likely going to be Casual and therefore (again I would like to state IMO) wind up in that server, Role playing and running trials etc.

Ethromelb14_ESO · June 2016

FloppyFrank wrote: »

Because ZOS only cares about $$$. They don't give a *** about hardcore and long term players. They just wanna sell copies and dlc for the money. If they ain't making money what's the point?

Well that's obvious. It's the whole premise behind the thread. Like I stated before, the large portion of the money is not really coming from the casual players. How can that be possible?

UltimaJoe777 · June 2016

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

This thread just screams stereotype. Not all casual gamers are skillless noobs... It would also discriminate further against the players to make seperate servers like this. In fact, a simpler and less offensive way to suggest this is to request different servers of different difficulty, but I know it won't happen.

You're already taking my words out of context. I never said every casual is a newb. I'm speaking of the majority. Sorry if that includes you, but it stands true. Deal with it. Suggesting something that won't happen is futile, and it is therefore the reason why I didn't do that. I'm addressing where and how the game remains successful, and it is not with casual players.

I'm also not saying that being casual has anything to entirely do with skill, but rather preference of play style, pace, difficulty, and time. That is not where the money is.

Last I looked this game was called Elder Scrolls Online, not Elder Elitists Online. Casual gamers exist, deal with it. Yes I am a casual gamer but I also have skills. I could easily be elitist if I wanted, but I don't.

Phinix1 · June 2016

The one legit concern you seem to have, ZOS making money and the long term health of the game, has already been solved by requiring DLC purchase or sub to access DLC content.

The casuals WILL pay for that. Most players are casuals. Most casuals will want to be able to keep the DLC for future use. So, they will either sub for 2 months to get enough crowns to buy it, or sub to try then buy enough crowns.

Either way if they release content every 3 months or so, it is about the same as if they were still on a sub model.

Plus you have all the cosmetic, mount, utility sales on TOP of that.

ZOS should be doing just fine as a business without the need to force-segregate people.

SirAndy · June 2016

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Last I looked this game was called Elder Scrolls Online, not Elder Elitists Online. Casual gamers exist, deal with it. Yes I am a casual gamer but I also have skills. I could easily be elitist if I wanted, but I don't.

Unsent.Soul · June 2016

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

No one has to cop a plea about how they have a life and better things to do than play ESO all day, otherwise you're just making my point - you are a casual, and not much money can be made off of you.

So why are casuals being catered to, instead? Is this not a conflict of interest? Even if the casual players outnumber the hardcore ones, the earning from such players couldn't possibly be more lucrative. The Hardcore are the ones keeping the game alive. The extremely easy combat system is not sating the Hardcore's desire for a challenge.

Just quoting your completely opinionated statements you assume are facts...

Get real champ, if you think casuals aren't paying for this game to stay alive your completely wrong.

Azoryl · June 2016

LOL AT THE OP...

Casuals outnumber the "hardcore" ... most likely at a ratio of 9 to 1...

Casuals are the ones that spend MORE money... because they want to look a certain way, have a certain pet, can't log in everyday to train their horse....

The OP has no clue how it really is...

Ethromelb14_ESO · June 2016

Phinix1 wrote: »

First of all, I think labeling people "hardcore" and "casual noobs" is offensive, does nothing to further your argument, and tends to put people off bothering to read what else you have to say.

With regard to separate servers, there is really no need. If you want to compete on a higher level simply run trials and veteran dungeons with premades that you know are skilled.

Trying to force segregation of the community only creates burnout in the group that rushes through everything, and encourages the abandonment of new players which is not good for the long term health of the game.

It doesn't kill you to help "noobs" to learn mechanics in order to build your raiding roster. If they just don't "get it" after several tries, then don't put them in your core, simple as that. Same as any other game with raiding.

The attempt to over-complicate things by seperating the "elite" from the "noobs" comes off as little more than thinly veiled elitism and generally insulting to the community at large.

My 2 septims.

Ok ... I'm not sure if you read the thread upside-down, or what? But NOWHERE did I ever suggest that players be separated by servers. It's called a hypothetical you - whatever.

As far as the terms being offensive - it's your problem if you're that sensitive. I didn't make the terms up, and there is nothing offensive about either word. They are not derogatory in any way. So stop the BS!

Perhaps if you read slooooower you might come to a greater understanding to the point I'm trying to make.

I clearly typed "AMONG MY NEWB FRIENDS". So why are you telling me "It doesn't hurt to help newbs"? I never stated there was anything wrong with it.

The success rate for casual players is not that great regardless of how large a person allows their roster to get. Besides, I'm a quality over quantity type of person.

Accusing me of being an "Elite", is to admit you're inferior, and never were those my words. How would you like me to tell you, your words read like you suffer from low self-esteem? The moment someone suggests something that doesn't scream pseudo-equality, here you are with "You're an Elite". If you don't accuse I won't either. Continue to contribute to the discussion and not criticize me.

I have criticized no one in my OP, and would appreciate the same in return.

Rohamad_Ali · June 2016

You don't reward hard core players by segregation . You reward them with communication and respect for their time , experience and financial contributions . You base new content around people that stay around even when things get rough .

ShedsHisTail · June 2016

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

The Hardcore server: Would be filled with experienced players....

No it wouldn't.
So many of the self-proclaimed "hardcore" players would go to the Casual server to flex their e-peens, the Hardcore server would be basically deserted.

Ethromelb14_ESO · June 2016

Azoryl wrote: »

LOL AT THE OP...

Casuals outnumber the "hardcore" ... most likely at a ratio of 9 to 1...

Casuals are the ones that spend MORE money... because they want to look a certain way, have a certain pet, can't log in everyday to train their horse....

The OP has no clue how it really is...

Perspective, and opinion. So according to your words, you would have to be every bit as clueless as you believe me to be.

Ethromelb14_ESO · June 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

No. One community is better than lots of little communities that cater to special interests.

I'm not suggesting a separation of communities. So why is that part of of the OP even being replied to?

Ethromelb14_ESO · June 2016

wayfarerx wrote: »

I really think people are reading far too much into Matt Firor's comments in the E3 article. No where did he say "Hardcore players are teh lame, casuals are awesome!!!1!1" Case in point, what are we getting in the next patch?
Two new dungeons that, if the IC dungeons are any indicator, will have very difficult veteran modes, at least to start (for the hardcore folks).

Scaling up of all the remaining underleveled endgame activities (for the hardcore folks again).

NO overland, one-shot, OMG faceroll carebear zone or quests (sorry casuals!).

Character customization / race change (really everyone wants this, but the race change is for hardcore min-maxers).

Update 11 is the closest thing we've had to a hardcore-centric update since Craglorn, or maybe IC. Yet there is almost no end to the "Oh noes ZOS doesn't love me because I play every day!" rhetoric. *sigh*

What makes you think I even read the article you just mentioned? I have no idea what you're speaking of.

Divinius · June 2016

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

Like I stated before, the large portion of the money is not really coming from the casual players. How can that be possible?

You keep saying that, and I'm pretty sure it's still completely wrong.

Because crown store items are mostly cosmetic crap that provides no functional advantage, I would bet a month's salary that the vast majority of the crown store sales come from the players you would call casuals. They are the ones more likely to go nuts over a new mount or pet, and toss money at "convenience" items like the banker and stuff that gives them more out of their limited playtime.

Also, just for fun, since you seem to like arguments based on stereotypes, I can even make one for this (please note, this is for illustrative purposes only, and is not meant to be taken seriously, or to reflect my actual views):

Hardcore gamers are mostly kids and people with no jobs that live in basements and have plenty of time to play ESO all day long. Casuals are mostly adults and people with real-life responsibilities that have less time to play. Obviously, the casuals are the ones who have jobs and access to disposable income, and therefore have far more money to spend in the crown store than the kids who live in their moms' basements.

Seriously though, there's one main reason why game developers don't like to try to cater to the "hardcore" players: They are typically impossible to please.

Look at things like VMA. There's an example of content that probably less than 10% of the playerbase can even complete. Yet how many times do you see posts where someone is complaining (about VMA) that "Oh, it's such a grind. It's not even a challenge anymore. We need something new." Or if not that, things like, "The challenge is all just stupid mechanics. It's not REAL challenge, it's just lazy." Constant complaining about how "easy" something that most of the players of this game will likely never complete.

Yet look at how many people get excited when the release a cool-looking new mount? You know who the vast majority of those people are? Casuals.

Given all this, who would YOU cater to, if you wanted to make money?

wayfarerx · June 2016

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

I really think people are reading far too much into Matt Firor's comments in the E3 article. No where did he say "Hardcore players are teh lame, casuals are awesome!!!1!1" Case in point, what are we getting in the next patch?
Two new dungeons that, if the IC dungeons are any indicator, will have very difficult veteran modes, at least to start (for the hardcore folks).

Scaling up of all the remaining underleveled endgame activities (for the hardcore folks again).

NO overland, one-shot, OMG faceroll carebear zone or quests (sorry casuals!).

Character customization / race change (really everyone wants this, but the race change is for hardcore min-maxers).

Update 11 is the closest thing we've had to a hardcore-centric update since Craglorn, or maybe IC. Yet there is almost no end to the "Oh noes ZOS doesn't love me because I play every day!" rhetoric. *sigh*

What makes you think I even read the article you just mentioned? I have no idea what you're speaking of.

Okay, enlighten us. Why are you salty about the whole causal vs hardcore thing? Were you aware that the next update is mostly hardcore-friendly? What exactly is your problem?

Voxicity · June 2016

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

Vox wrote: »

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

This thread just screams stereotype. Not all casual gamers are skillless noobs... It would also discriminate further against the players to make seperate servers like this. In fact, a simpler and less offensive way to suggest this is to request different servers of different difficulty, but I know it won't happen.

You're already taking my words out of context. I never said every casual is a newb. I'm speaking of the majority. Sorry if that includes you, but it stands true. Deal with it. Suggesting something that won't happen is futile, and it is therefore the reason why I didn't do that. I'm addressing where and how the game remains successful, and it is not with casual players.

I highly disagree. This game is extremely successful amongst casual players.

Based on what?

Based on the fact that hundreds of thousands of casual players play this game?