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When will we hear ANYTHING from the combat team on upcoming changes?
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Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.
Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.
It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.
However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.
I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.
I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.
Retreating spam doesn't do anything to bombard spam because the effect is removed with practically every skill you use. It doesn't help that bombard is ALSO applying poisons and the magic counter to this (purge) is broken as ffffff.
It's not just a counter to magica, it's a hard counter. With purge broken it's just about the most frustrating play I've ever engaged in lol. I mean yeah, we adjusted after a few horrible days of it, but it remains a form of gameplay that makes me want to break my keyboard. Watching 40 people spread out around me twanging endless bombards as they backpedal.... It brings tears to this Nord Princess' eyes.
One of the defining characteristics of a DK was the ability to aoe root. Bombard does it better, safer, and as steve mentioned - can apply poisons with ever cast. Why would you ever use talons or encase over bombard?
Why would you reward the bowtard way in the back more than the DK that needs to be in melee range and take risks? Why would you let the bowtard have the capacity to root such a large area compared to a DK that can only do it in 6m radius? It makes no sense, none. People can defend the root meta, theyre entitled to their opinions. No one can defend bombard being leagues above a DKs capacity to root.
The increased range in cryo probably shouldn't be applied to bombard. It is though... so the cone is far better than anything else.
Bombard spamming... eh. Bombard drains a lot of stamina. When I slot it I only use it situationally, and by that I mean when I see a whole group of clothies with proxy up... damn straight I'm gonna spam em with it. Nothing funnier than an entire bomb group standing in place with their proxy dets going off with no one near them.
The problem isn't just you doing it though, it encourages the zergs of 60+ to all do it. I think it was an ales fight where after dying my jaw dropped as I counted at least 14 bombard spammers (yes, one at a time, I actually counted them) off to the sides with people on siege and a ball group bombing. We probably had 16-18. That's the meta. That's what I tried to address as the problem. Should everybody just run that many and do the same thing? That sounds toxic, and it sounds like wrobel needs to take action on a problem he introduced over FIVE months ago.
Bombard drains no more stamina than other skills, I'm sorry, it's a non issue. It also does pretty good damage, so pretending like a group can charge in with retreating and not heal the good aoe damage being dumped on them is unrealistic. Retreating is useless except when out of combat now, I challenge any sane group to argue otherwise.
All weapon skill have a 20% chance to apply poisons. Couple this with the range AND the damage and of course bombard outclasses DK and sorcs. It's dumb, and we've played in the root meta long enough. Contrary to what you said, it's the antithesis of fun. On a yellow alt I did bombard spam for 3 days and saw firsthand how easy, safe, stupid, and effective it is. I took no pleasure in watching people from dying to something so toxic.
I don't have an issue with roots being changed, it's more an issue of how do you change it without making it totally trivial for stamina specs?
Because with all the bombard spamming right now, it's not really an issue for stamina specs that run shuffle and can roll dodge without issues.
The other thing is it's the only aoe that isn't a bad ground targeted ability or lackluster aoe for stamina builds.
Acid spray does pretty darn good aoe dmg, particularly when coupled with the sets we have available as of DB. Steel tornado still does its thing, and carve has been wrobel'd since launch, but the argument that there aren't alternatives is a bad one. Even silver shards is half decent aoe. 5m range too small? Tell that to a DK.
The ability to stop the megazerg without bringing one yourself needs to be reintroduced to the game. The rapids change in OP would help counter without returning rapids to what it was. I've suggested to wrobel previously that we get a ~3 sec immunity after performing a dodge roll as well. The big problem in DB is the combo of negate and bombard spam, but if only one fix was to go in, I'd rather it be bombard spam.
Yes, no one likes it, we've complained for half a year, but Ive also given a comparison to talons and encase to demonstrate how lopsided the power scale is when you compare bombard to similar skills. I want to say I can't believe it's been left like this for so long, but we play ESO.1 -
umagon✭✭✭✭✭There are two sets that can help counter a lot of aoe damage; bastion of the heartland and leki's focus. Using one or both can reduce the amount of damage a group can take and allow more time for singling out targets in an opposing group. While roots in general need diminishing returns and immunies; countering bombard is done by modifying group tactics. It's only effective against groups whom ball up and rely on close range aoe to defeat other groups. If you want to counter it spread out and change to ranged tactics. People trying to use it would be dead before they can do so. Bastion and/or Leki's helps to counter the opposition who make it to close range and try to aoe bomb. Unfortunately there isn't a light armor variant; well one that I know of. And yes both sets stack along with the duel wield blade cloak.
Again, there are plenty of adjustments groups can make but single target always favors the bigger group because of the basic mechanics around single target and aoe. A larger group relying on AoE (like bombard) isn't going to lose vs a single target train. It's about effective Zerg counters, which Wrobel has been systemically removing since 1.1 culminating in this toxic sludge.
You don't make a train of single target users you incorporate few into the group and pick key targets. The damage based large group counters the devs added only multiplied large group effectiveness. When it comes to dealing with groups crowd control is really the only other option. It may need adjustment but every damage based option did not work out.
To combat a larger force with a smaller one; one can't always win with a fire fight. At times one must reduce their numbers down systematically. The larger force can and tends to have more dps, breaks, cc, etc. Expecting to always win by just by taking them head on is not realistic.0 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭There are two sets that can help counter a lot of aoe damage; bastion of the heartland and leki's focus. Using one or both can reduce the amount of damage a group can take and allow more time for singling out targets in an opposing group. While roots in general need diminishing returns and immunies; countering bombard is done by modifying group tactics. It's only effective against groups whom ball up and rely on close range aoe to defeat other groups. If you want to counter it spread out and change to ranged tactics. People trying to use it would be dead before they can do so. Bastion and/or Leki's helps to counter the opposition who make it to close range and try to aoe bomb. Unfortunately there isn't a light armor variant; well one that I know of. And yes both sets stack along with the duel wield blade cloak.
Again, there are plenty of adjustments groups can make but single target always favors the bigger group because of the basic mechanics around single target and aoe. A larger group relying on AoE (like bombard) isn't going to lose vs a single target train. It's about effective Zerg counters, which Wrobel has been systemically removing since 1.1 culminating in this toxic sludge.
You don't make a train of single target users you incorporate few into the group and pick key targets. The damage based large group counters the devs added only multiplied large group effectiveness. When it comes to dealing with groups crowd control is really the only other option. It may need adjustment but every damage based option did not work out.
To combat a larger force with a smaller one; one can't always win with a fire fight. At times one must reduce their numbers down systematically. The larger force can and tends to have more dps, breaks, cc, etc. Expecting to always win by just by taking them head on is not realistic.
Counterpoint: camps and fast rezzing
Too many outs for a Zerg. When they're outplayed and lose too many, put up a camp. Most groups that engage us preemptively camp lol. If all else fail, spread out, die in a large enough area that we simply can't cover it all and then zombie horde it.
I don't mean to sound like a stuck up elitist, but I'm not new at this. I've been raid leading with one of the best PvP guilds in ESO for two years. I've watched the tools a group has to fight a bigger one get systemically dismantled in that time. It just keeps getting worse.Edited by Satiar on June 21, 2016 9:29PMVehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost3 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.
Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.
It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.
However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.
I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.
I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.
Interesting perspective. Next time I get, err, bombarded by stamina based players complaining that Jesus Beam is undodgable and uncounterable, I'll remember this logic.
Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.4 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.
Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.
It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.
However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.
I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.
I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.
Retreating spam doesn't do anything to bombard spam because the effect is removed with practically every skill you use. It doesn't help that bombard is ALSO applying poisons and the magic counter to this (purge) is broken as ffffff.
It's not just a counter to magica, it's a hard counter. With purge broken it's just about the most frustrating play I've ever engaged in lol. I mean yeah, we adjusted after a few horrible days of it, but it remains a form of gameplay that makes me want to break my keyboard. Watching 40 people spread out around me twanging endless bombards as they backpedal.... It brings tears to this Nord Princess' eyes.
One of the defining characteristics of a DK was the ability to aoe root. Bombard does it better, safer, and as steve mentioned - can apply poisons with ever cast. Why would you ever use talons or encase over bombard?
Why would you reward the bowtard way in the back more than the DK that needs to be in melee range and take risks? Why would you let the bowtard have the capacity to root such a large area compared to a DK that can only do it in 6m radius? It makes no sense, none. People can defend the root meta, theyre entitled to their opinions. No one can defend bombard being leagues above a DKs capacity to root.
The increased range in cryo probably shouldn't be applied to bombard. It is though... so the cone is far better than anything else.
Bombard spamming... eh. Bombard drains a lot of stamina. When I slot it I only use it situationally, and by that I mean when I see a whole group of clothies with proxy up... damn straight I'm gonna spam em with it. Nothing funnier than an entire bomb group standing in place with their proxy dets going off with no one near them.
The problem isn't just you doing it though, it encourages the zergs of 60+ to all do it. I think it was an ales fight where after dying my jaw dropped as I counted at least 14 bombard spammers (yes, one at a time, I actually counted them) off to the sides with people on siege and a ball group bombing. We probably had 16-18. That's the meta. That's what I tried to address as the problem. Should everybody just run that many and do the same thing? That sounds toxic, and it sounds like wrobel needs to take action on a problem he introduced over FIVE months ago.
Bombard drains no more stamina than other skills, I'm sorry, it's a non issue. It also does pretty good damage, so pretending like a group can charge in with retreating and not heal the good aoe damage being dumped on them is unrealistic. Retreating is useless except when out of combat now, I challenge any sane group to argue otherwise.
All weapon skill have a 20% chance to apply poisons. Couple this with the range AND the damage and of course bombard outclasses DK and sorcs. It's dumb, and we've played in the root meta long enough. Contrary to what you said, it's the antithesis of fun. On a yellow alt I did bombard spam for 3 days and saw firsthand how easy, safe, stupid, and effective it is. I took no pleasure in watching people from dying to something so toxic.
I don't have an issue with roots being changed, it's more an issue of how do you change it without making it totally trivial for stamina specs?
Because with all the bombard spamming right now, it's not really an issue for stamina specs that run shuffle and can roll dodge without issues.
The other thing is it's the only aoe that isn't a bad ground targeted ability or lackluster aoe for stamina builds.
Root spam, or CC spam of any kind, is bad for gameplay. Run speed already got Nerfed, you walk layered in caltrops, the main method of getting movement back was removed (retreating maneuvers), and it's root spam on top of it.
I'm going to say it again for clarity: CC lock is poor game design. No PvP meta should EVER (ever) revolve around spammable CC. It's a frustrating mode of play that is completely unnecessary.
As a final note, if your solution is "roll Stam" then there is a large problem. Just as there was with Impulse and Steel tornado metas, but at least with those you had control of your freaking character.
I guess the solution would be to grant immunity to particular types of roots, not all of them at once.
Oddly enough the primary reason I use bombard is it's the only snare I realistically have access to.
They could add immunity to the same exact root (ie the bombard root, the dk dark talons roots, the sorc encase line) for x duration after being affected by it.
The solution of "roll stam" isn't what I'm implying at all. But the solution of make it so bomb groups can't be countered isn't a solution either.
I'd be fine with a change, but just targeting bombard is silly. It's not like it suddenly became OP due to a change to it... it became OP because so many people started bombing and it's the most reasonable defense against it. The ability has existed as it currently is forever... the fact that with TG so many went magicka bomb builds made it powerful.0 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.
Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.
It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.
However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.
I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.
I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.
Retreating spam doesn't do anything to bombard spam because the effect is removed with practically every skill you use. It doesn't help that bombard is ALSO applying poisons and the magic counter to this (purge) is broken as ffffff.
It's not just a counter to magica, it's a hard counter. With purge broken it's just about the most frustrating play I've ever engaged in lol. I mean yeah, we adjusted after a few horrible days of it, but it remains a form of gameplay that makes me want to break my keyboard. Watching 40 people spread out around me twanging endless bombards as they backpedal.... It brings tears to this Nord Princess' eyes.
One of the defining characteristics of a DK was the ability to aoe root. Bombard does it better, safer, and as steve mentioned - can apply poisons with ever cast. Why would you ever use talons or encase over bombard?
Why would you reward the bowtard way in the back more than the DK that needs to be in melee range and take risks? Why would you let the bowtard have the capacity to root such a large area compared to a DK that can only do it in 6m radius? It makes no sense, none. People can defend the root meta, theyre entitled to their opinions. No one can defend bombard being leagues above a DKs capacity to root.
The increased range in cryo probably shouldn't be applied to bombard. It is though... so the cone is far better than anything else.
Bombard spamming... eh. Bombard drains a lot of stamina. When I slot it I only use it situationally, and by that I mean when I see a whole group of clothies with proxy up... damn straight I'm gonna spam em with it. Nothing funnier than an entire bomb group standing in place with their proxy dets going off with no one near them.
The problem isn't just you doing it though, it encourages the zergs of 60+ to all do it. I think it was an ales fight where after dying my jaw dropped as I counted at least 14 bombard spammers (yes, one at a time, I actually counted them) off to the sides with people on siege and a ball group bombing. We probably had 16-18. That's the meta. That's what I tried to address as the problem. Should everybody just run that many and do the same thing? That sounds toxic, and it sounds like wrobel needs to take action on a problem he introduced over FIVE months ago.
Bombard drains no more stamina than other skills, I'm sorry, it's a non issue. It also does pretty good damage, so pretending like a group can charge in with retreating and not heal the good aoe damage being dumped on them is unrealistic. Retreating is useless except when out of combat now, I challenge any sane group to argue otherwise.
All weapon skill have a 20% chance to apply poisons. Couple this with the range AND the damage and of course bombard outclasses DK and sorcs. It's dumb, and we've played in the root meta long enough. Contrary to what you said, it's the antithesis of fun. On a yellow alt I did bombard spam for 3 days and saw firsthand how easy, safe, stupid, and effective it is. I took no pleasure in watching people from dying to something so toxic.
I don't have an issue with roots being changed, it's more an issue of how do you change it without making it totally trivial for stamina specs?
Because with all the bombard spamming right now, it's not really an issue for stamina specs that run shuffle and can roll dodge without issues.
The other thing is it's the only aoe that isn't a bad ground targeted ability or lackluster aoe for stamina builds.
Root spam, or CC spam of any kind, is bad for gameplay. Run speed already got Nerfed, you walk layered in caltrops, the main method of getting movement back was removed (retreating maneuvers), and it's root spam on top of it.
I'm going to say it again for clarity: CC lock is poor game design. No PvP meta should EVER (ever) revolve around spammable CC. It's a frustrating mode of play that is completely unnecessary.
As a final note, if your solution is "roll Stam" then there is a large problem. Just as there was with Impulse and Steel tornado metas, but at least with those you had control of your freaking character.
I guess the solution would be to grant immunity to particular types of roots, not all of them at once.
Oddly enough the primary reason I use bombard is it's the only snare I realistically have access to.
They could add immunity to the same exact root (ie the bombard root, the dk dark talons roots, the sorc encase line) for x duration after being affected by it.
The solution of "roll stam" isn't what I'm implying at all. But the solution of make it so bomb groups can't be countered isn't a solution either.
I'd be fine with a change, but just targeting bombard is silly. It's not like it suddenly became OP due to a change to it... it became OP because so many people started bombing and it's the most reasonable defense against it. The ability has existed as it currently is forever... the fact that with TG so many went magicka bomb builds made it powerful.
People have bomb groups because you need AoE to fight zergs 3-4 times your size. To effectively do this you need sustain and mobility, and ZoS removed both by nerfing purge, barrier and Rapids and breaking purge. So what we have now is a meta where the only counter to giant zergs is another giant Zerg. Preferably all spamming bombard.Edited by Satiar on June 21, 2016 9:52PMVehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost1 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.
Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.
It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.
However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.
I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.
I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.
Retreating spam doesn't do anything to bombard spam because the effect is removed with practically every skill you use. It doesn't help that bombard is ALSO applying poisons and the magic counter to this (purge) is broken as ffffff.
It's not just a counter to magica, it's a hard counter. With purge broken it's just about the most frustrating play I've ever engaged in lol. I mean yeah, we adjusted after a few horrible days of it, but it remains a form of gameplay that makes me want to break my keyboard. Watching 40 people spread out around me twanging endless bombards as they backpedal.... It brings tears to this Nord Princess' eyes.
One of the defining characteristics of a DK was the ability to aoe root. Bombard does it better, safer, and as steve mentioned - can apply poisons with ever cast. Why would you ever use talons or encase over bombard?
Why would you reward the bowtard way in the back more than the DK that needs to be in melee range and take risks? Why would you let the bowtard have the capacity to root such a large area compared to a DK that can only do it in 6m radius? It makes no sense, none. People can defend the root meta, theyre entitled to their opinions. No one can defend bombard being leagues above a DKs capacity to root.
The increased range in cryo probably shouldn't be applied to bombard. It is though... so the cone is far better than anything else.
Bombard spamming... eh. Bombard drains a lot of stamina. When I slot it I only use it situationally, and by that I mean when I see a whole group of clothies with proxy up... damn straight I'm gonna spam em with it. Nothing funnier than an entire bomb group standing in place with their proxy dets going off with no one near them.
The problem isn't just you doing it though, it encourages the zergs of 60+ to all do it. I think it was an ales fight where after dying my jaw dropped as I counted at least 14 bombard spammers (yes, one at a time, I actually counted them) off to the sides with people on siege and a ball group bombing. We probably had 16-18. That's the meta. That's what I tried to address as the problem. Should everybody just run that many and do the same thing? That sounds toxic, and it sounds like wrobel needs to take action on a problem he introduced over FIVE months ago.
Bombard drains no more stamina than other skills, I'm sorry, it's a non issue. It also does pretty good damage, so pretending like a group can charge in with retreating and not heal the good aoe damage being dumped on them is unrealistic. Retreating is useless except when out of combat now, I challenge any sane group to argue otherwise.
All weapon skill have a 20% chance to apply poisons. Couple this with the range AND the damage and of course bombard outclasses DK and sorcs. It's dumb, and we've played in the root meta long enough. Contrary to what you said, it's the antithesis of fun. On a yellow alt I did bombard spam for 3 days and saw firsthand how easy, safe, stupid, and effective it is. I took no pleasure in watching people from dying to something so toxic.
I don't have an issue with roots being changed, it's more an issue of how do you change it without making it totally trivial for stamina specs?
Because with all the bombard spamming right now, it's not really an issue for stamina specs that run shuffle and can roll dodge without issues.
The other thing is it's the only aoe that isn't a bad ground targeted ability or lackluster aoe for stamina builds.
Root spam, or CC spam of any kind, is bad for gameplay. Run speed already got Nerfed, you walk layered in caltrops, the main method of getting movement back was removed (retreating maneuvers), and it's root spam on top of it.
I'm going to say it again for clarity: CC lock is poor game design. No PvP meta should EVER (ever) revolve around spammable CC. It's a frustrating mode of play that is completely unnecessary.
As a final note, if your solution is "roll Stam" then there is a large problem. Just as there was with Impulse and Steel tornado metas, but at least with those you had control of your freaking character.
I guess the solution would be to grant immunity to particular types of roots, not all of them at once.
Oddly enough the primary reason I use bombard is it's the only snare I realistically have access to.
They could add immunity to the same exact root (ie the bombard root, the dk dark talons roots, the sorc encase line) for x duration after being affected by it.
The solution of "roll stam" isn't what I'm implying at all. But the solution of make it so bomb groups can't be countered isn't a solution either.
I'd be fine with a change, but just targeting bombard is silly. It's not like it suddenly became OP due to a change to it... it became OP because so many people started bombing and it's the most reasonable defense against it. The ability has existed as it currently is forever... the fact that with TG so many went magicka bomb builds made it powerful.
You're way off man. It became meta in TG because wrobel nerfed rapid maneuvers. It became even stronger in DB because of the bow based sets you can combine with the reintroduction of hawks eye, and the fact that it's the only air root capable of proccing poisons.
The mag bomb had nothing to do with bombard, it was the rapids nerf.
As an aside, silver shard will snare for you, and you have caltrops ...0 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.
Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.
It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.
However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.
I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.
I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.
Retreating spam doesn't do anything to bombard spam because the effect is removed with practically every skill you use. It doesn't help that bombard is ALSO applying poisons and the magic counter to this (purge) is broken as ffffff.
It's not just a counter to magica, it's a hard counter. With purge broken it's just about the most frustrating play I've ever engaged in lol. I mean yeah, we adjusted after a few horrible days of it, but it remains a form of gameplay that makes me want to break my keyboard. Watching 40 people spread out around me twanging endless bombards as they backpedal.... It brings tears to this Nord Princess' eyes.
One of the defining characteristics of a DK was the ability to aoe root. Bombard does it better, safer, and as steve mentioned - can apply poisons with ever cast. Why would you ever use talons or encase over bombard?
Why would you reward the bowtard way in the back more than the DK that needs to be in melee range and take risks? Why would you let the bowtard have the capacity to root such a large area compared to a DK that can only do it in 6m radius? It makes no sense, none. People can defend the root meta, theyre entitled to their opinions. No one can defend bombard being leagues above a DKs capacity to root.
The increased range in cryo probably shouldn't be applied to bombard. It is though... so the cone is far better than anything else.
Bombard spamming... eh. Bombard drains a lot of stamina. When I slot it I only use it situationally, and by that I mean when I see a whole group of clothies with proxy up... damn straight I'm gonna spam em with it. Nothing funnier than an entire bomb group standing in place with their proxy dets going off with no one near them.
The problem isn't just you doing it though, it encourages the zergs of 60+ to all do it. I think it was an ales fight where after dying my jaw dropped as I counted at least 14 bombard spammers (yes, one at a time, I actually counted them) off to the sides with people on siege and a ball group bombing. We probably had 16-18. That's the meta. That's what I tried to address as the problem. Should everybody just run that many and do the same thing? That sounds toxic, and it sounds like wrobel needs to take action on a problem he introduced over FIVE months ago.
Bombard drains no more stamina than other skills, I'm sorry, it's a non issue. It also does pretty good damage, so pretending like a group can charge in with retreating and not heal the good aoe damage being dumped on them is unrealistic. Retreating is useless except when out of combat now, I challenge any sane group to argue otherwise.
All weapon skill have a 20% chance to apply poisons. Couple this with the range AND the damage and of course bombard outclasses DK and sorcs. It's dumb, and we've played in the root meta long enough. Contrary to what you said, it's the antithesis of fun. On a yellow alt I did bombard spam for 3 days and saw firsthand how easy, safe, stupid, and effective it is. I took no pleasure in watching people from dying to something so toxic.
I don't have an issue with roots being changed, it's more an issue of how do you change it without making it totally trivial for stamina specs?
Because with all the bombard spamming right now, it's not really an issue for stamina specs that run shuffle and can roll dodge without issues.
The other thing is it's the only aoe that isn't a bad ground targeted ability or lackluster aoe for stamina builds.
Root spam, or CC spam of any kind, is bad for gameplay. Run speed already got Nerfed, you walk layered in caltrops, the main method of getting movement back was removed (retreating maneuvers), and it's root spam on top of it.
I'm going to say it again for clarity: CC lock is poor game design. No PvP meta should EVER (ever) revolve around spammable CC. It's a frustrating mode of play that is completely unnecessary.
As a final note, if your solution is "roll Stam" then there is a large problem. Just as there was with Impulse and Steel tornado metas, but at least with those you had control of your freaking character.
I guess the solution would be to grant immunity to particular types of roots, not all of them at once.
Oddly enough the primary reason I use bombard is it's the only snare I realistically have access to.
They could add immunity to the same exact root (ie the bombard root, the dk dark talons roots, the sorc encase line) for x duration after being affected by it.
The solution of "roll stam" isn't what I'm implying at all. But the solution of make it so bomb groups can't be countered isn't a solution either.
I'd be fine with a change, but just targeting bombard is silly. It's not like it suddenly became OP due to a change to it... it became OP because so many people started bombing and it's the most reasonable defense against it. The ability has existed as it currently is forever... the fact that with TG so many went magicka bomb builds made it powerful.
You're way off man. It became meta in TG because wrobel nerfed rapid maneuvers. It became even stronger in DB because of the bow based sets you can combine with the reintroduction of hawks eye, and the fact that it's the only air root capable of proccing poisons.
The mag bomb had nothing to do with bombard, it was the rapids nerf.
As an aside, silver shard will snare for you, and you have caltrops ...
Hehe if you play a nightblade you learn that if you ever want to ever get back into stealth you don't use caltrops. Silver shard is single target snare... not quite the same.
I don't go around blaming developers, it's silly and childish. The alliance war skills needed to be nerfed. Affecting a full raid was stupid OP.
But one thing to note is that good organized groups aren't wiped by bombard spam.
I get that low stamina and no stamina regen builds get testy over bombard. It sounds to me like all they want is bombard gone and neutered... without discussion.
0 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I've tested every last possible way to combat bombard spam . It's like trying to build a tower of wet noodles ! I might discover a universal energy source before I find a anti-root ability that works .1 -
frozywozy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think that the main problem is not the new balance choices and mechanics. It's mostly the fact that most large EP / AD guilds finally got to the next level and they are not only counting on numbers anymore. They optimized their build, asked their sorc to slot negate and assigned a specific rotation for all useful ultimates in the game.
I have been playing on my magicka templar for 3weeks now and with elusive mist and ritual, I have no problems at all with snares. Yes they are annoying, yes I wish less abilities would apply snares but I can deal with them absolutely fine, even on a magicka templar. I can also tank wrecking blow spam like a boss and I can also kill any average dodge roll spammer with one hand with radiant destruction without any point in elemental expert or thaumaturge. But that is another story.Edited by frozywozy on June 21, 2016 10:58PMFrozn - Stamdk - AR50
Frosted - Magplar - AR50
Frodn - Magden - AR50
Warmed - Magblade - AR50
Mmfrozy - Magsorc - AR44
Necrozn - Magcro - AR32
Twitch.TV/FrozyTV
PvP Group Builds
“Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events, and great minds discuss ideas.” -Eleanor Roosevelt- Fix Volendrung (spawn location - weapon white on the map causing the wielder to keep it forever - usable with emperorship)
- Remove / Change CPs System, remove current CP/noCP campaigns and introduce one 30days with lock, one with no locks
- Fix crashes when approaching a keep under attack because of bad / wrong rendering prioritization system
- Change emperorship to value faction score points and not alliance points - see this and this
- Fix long loading screens (mostly caused by players joining group out of rendering range)
- Add 2 more quickslots to the wheel or add a different wheel for sieges weaponry only
- Fix Balista Bolts not dealing damage on walls or doors if deployed at a certain place
- Release bigger battlegrounds with 8 to 16 players per team and only two teams
- Fix the permanent block animation - see examples : link1 link2 link3 link4 link5
- Gives players 10 minutes to get back into Cyrodiil after relogging / crashing
- Add a function to ignore the Claiming system of useless rewards
- Improve the Mailing System / Rewards of the Worthy stacking
- Assign specific group sizes to specific campaigns (24-16-8)
- Make forward camps impossible to place near objectives
- Make snares only available from ground effects abilities
- Change emperorship to last minimum 24hours
- Fix body sliding after cc breaking too quickly
- Remove Block Casting through Battle Spirit
- Fix the speed drop while jumping - see video
- Fix loading screens when keeps upgrade
- Fix Rams going crazy (spinning around)
- Bring back dynamic ulti regeneration
- Fix speed bug (abilities locked)
- Introduce dynamic population
- Lower population cap by 20%
- Add Snare Immunity potions
- Bring resurrection sickness
- Fix character desync
- Fix cc breaking bug
- Fix gap closer bug
- Fix health desync
- Fix combat bug
- Fix streak bug
- Fix server lag
0 -
umagon✭✭✭✭✭There are two sets that can help counter a lot of aoe damage; bastion of the heartland and leki's focus. Using one or both can reduce the amount of damage a group can take and allow more time for singling out targets in an opposing group. While roots in general need diminishing returns and immunies; countering bombard is done by modifying group tactics. It's only effective against groups whom ball up and rely on close range aoe to defeat other groups. If you want to counter it spread out and change to ranged tactics. People trying to use it would be dead before they can do so. Bastion and/or Leki's helps to counter the opposition who make it to close range and try to aoe bomb. Unfortunately there isn't a light armor variant; well one that I know of. And yes both sets stack along with the duel wield blade cloak.
Again, there are plenty of adjustments groups can make but single target always favors the bigger group because of the basic mechanics around single target and aoe. A larger group relying on AoE (like bombard) isn't going to lose vs a single target train. It's about effective Zerg counters, which Wrobel has been systemically removing since 1.1 culminating in this toxic sludge.
You don't make a train of single target users you incorporate few into the group and pick key targets. The damage based large group counters the devs added only multiplied large group effectiveness. When it comes to dealing with groups crowd control is really the only other option. It may need adjustment but every damage based option did not work out.
To combat a larger force with a smaller one; one can't always win with a fire fight. At times one must reduce their numbers down systematically. The larger force can and tends to have more dps, breaks, cc, etc. Expecting to always win by just by taking them head on is not realistic.
Counterpoint: camps and fast rezzing
Too many outs for a Zerg. When they're outplayed and lose too many, put up a camp. Most groups that engage us preemptively camp lol. If all else fail, spread out, die in a large enough area that we simply can't cover it all and then zombie horde it.
I don't mean to sound like a stuck up elitist, but I'm not new at this. I've been raid leading with one of the best PvP guilds in ESO for two years. I've watched the tools a group has to fight a bigger one get systemically dismantled in that time. It just keeps getting worse.
The camps like rapids and barriers where changed because they gave too much power to larger groups. The camps came back because people asked for them. I don't like them but like every other tool if a small group or single player as access to it larger groups will have more of it. It works the same with the aoe caps and anything else damage or cc wise. The dev team can not create a tool that only works for a small group the only option is changing tactics at this point. No aoe caps, ground oil, old rapids, old barrier, old talons, etc; it only empowered larger organized groups. Groups of players who where solo, or pick up groups were the main victims who fell to those strategies not so much organized ones.
The question is what tool could they script that only worked for a small group that a larger group could not use; and could not be circumvented by team speak or breaking up the large group into smaller ones?1 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.
Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.
It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.
However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.
I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.
I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.
Retreating spam doesn't do anything to bombard spam because the effect is removed with practically every skill you use. It doesn't help that bombard is ALSO applying poisons and the magic counter to this (purge) is broken as ffffff.
It's not just a counter to magica, it's a hard counter. With purge broken it's just about the most frustrating play I've ever engaged in lol. I mean yeah, we adjusted after a few horrible days of it, but it remains a form of gameplay that makes me want to break my keyboard. Watching 40 people spread out around me twanging endless bombards as they backpedal.... It brings tears to this Nord Princess' eyes.
One of the defining characteristics of a DK was the ability to aoe root. Bombard does it better, safer, and as steve mentioned - can apply poisons with ever cast. Why would you ever use talons or encase over bombard?
Why would you reward the bowtard way in the back more than the DK that needs to be in melee range and take risks? Why would you let the bowtard have the capacity to root such a large area compared to a DK that can only do it in 6m radius? It makes no sense, none. People can defend the root meta, theyre entitled to their opinions. No one can defend bombard being leagues above a DKs capacity to root.
The increased range in cryo probably shouldn't be applied to bombard. It is though... so the cone is far better than anything else.
Bombard spamming... eh. Bombard drains a lot of stamina. When I slot it I only use it situationally, and by that I mean when I see a whole group of clothies with proxy up... damn straight I'm gonna spam em with it. Nothing funnier than an entire bomb group standing in place with their proxy dets going off with no one near them.
The problem isn't just you doing it though, it encourages the zergs of 60+ to all do it. I think it was an ales fight where after dying my jaw dropped as I counted at least 14 bombard spammers (yes, one at a time, I actually counted them) off to the sides with people on siege and a ball group bombing. We probably had 16-18. That's the meta. That's what I tried to address as the problem. Should everybody just run that many and do the same thing? That sounds toxic, and it sounds like wrobel needs to take action on a problem he introduced over FIVE months ago.
Bombard drains no more stamina than other skills, I'm sorry, it's a non issue. It also does pretty good damage, so pretending like a group can charge in with retreating and not heal the good aoe damage being dumped on them is unrealistic. Retreating is useless except when out of combat now, I challenge any sane group to argue otherwise.
All weapon skill have a 20% chance to apply poisons. Couple this with the range AND the damage and of course bombard outclasses DK and sorcs. It's dumb, and we've played in the root meta long enough. Contrary to what you said, it's the antithesis of fun. On a yellow alt I did bombard spam for 3 days and saw firsthand how easy, safe, stupid, and effective it is. I took no pleasure in watching people from dying to something so toxic.
I don't have an issue with roots being changed, it's more an issue of how do you change it without making it totally trivial for stamina specs?
Because with all the bombard spamming right now, it's not really an issue for stamina specs that run shuffle and can roll dodge without issues.
The other thing is it's the only aoe that isn't a bad ground targeted ability or lackluster aoe for stamina builds.
Root spam, or CC spam of any kind, is bad for gameplay. Run speed already got Nerfed, you walk layered in caltrops, the main method of getting movement back was removed (retreating maneuvers), and it's root spam on top of it.
I'm going to say it again for clarity: CC lock is poor game design. No PvP meta should EVER (ever) revolve around spammable CC. It's a frustrating mode of play that is completely unnecessary.
As a final note, if your solution is "roll Stam" then there is a large problem. Just as there was with Impulse and Steel tornado metas, but at least with those you had control of your freaking character.
I guess the solution would be to grant immunity to particular types of roots, not all of them at once.
Oddly enough the primary reason I use bombard is it's the only snare I realistically have access to.
They could add immunity to the same exact root (ie the bombard root, the dk dark talons roots, the sorc encase line) for x duration after being affected by it.
The solution of "roll stam" isn't what I'm implying at all. But the solution of make it so bomb groups can't be countered isn't a solution either.
I'd be fine with a change, but just targeting bombard is silly. It's not like it suddenly became OP due to a change to it... it became OP because so many people started bombing and it's the most reasonable defense against it. The ability has existed as it currently is forever... the fact that with TG so many went magicka bomb builds made it powerful.
You're way off man. It became meta in TG because wrobel nerfed rapid maneuvers. It became even stronger in DB because of the bow based sets you can combine with the reintroduction of hawks eye, and the fact that it's the only air root capable of proccing poisons.
The mag bomb had nothing to do with bombard, it was the rapids nerf.
As an aside, silver shard will snare for you, and you have caltrops ...
Hehe if you play a nightblade you learn that if you ever want to ever get back into stealth you don't use caltrops. Silver shard is single target snare... not quite the same.
I don't go around blaming developers, it's silly and childish. The alliance war skills needed to be nerfed. Affecting a full raid was stupid OP.
But one thing to note is that good organized groups aren't wiped by bombard spam.
I get that low stamina and no stamina regen builds get testy over bombard. It sounds to me like all they want is bombard gone and neutered... without discussion.
You keep saying this. They aren't wiped by it, their wipes are caused by it. There's a difference. I play with or against the best NA PC pvp guilds, and they all are crippled by it. Anyone claiming otherwise (as I said before) is lying, or is not fighting competitively. If you feel so strongly about this, go ahead and name a single guild. I've watched them all get permarooted and wiped by superior numbers over the past few months.Edited by Zheg on June 21, 2016 10:45PM4 -
TooskSG✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »
But one thing to note is that good organized groups aren't wiped by bombard spam.
You name a guild group that you think won't be wiped due to bombard/other root spam, and I'll actually fully give into this cancerous meta,go equip fasalla's, that ridiculous 60% increased resource poison ***, and bombard spam their backline when their tanks initiate a bomb. Even Pact Militia (aka EG 4.0) can wipe an enemy group when this is done for them: it's a bad meta. It's not even solely bombard that's the issue, the proliferation of roots and their inclusion on too many abilities is terrible game design, period.Edited by TooskSG on June 22, 2016 2:30AM0 -
Vangy✭✭✭✭✭
✭1. Address perma snares.
2. Fix negate.... It cannot frigging overrule other class AOE Ultimates....
3. Malebuth tweaked. I know a lot of tanks use this and im fine with that. Tanks dont do much damage. The problem is DPS potatoes are also using this. Make the beam damage-heal scale off max health. Make it so that at least 30k health is required for it to be worthwhile. This way, tanks are not affected and all the DPS potatoes wearing this will no longer find it viable.
4. Gap closers.... Please?
(2)V16 Dk- stam dps/stam tank/mag dps
(2)V16 Sorc- mag dps/stam dps
(2)V16 nb- stam dps/mag dps
(1)v16 temp- mag tank/mag dps
CP: 610 and counting
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates! Viva la revolutionz1 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rapids was changed because it made Zerg Balls extremely powerful...It needed to be nerfed.
Negate of course is super powerful; Not sure if they'll nerf it or not..as they seem to want Sorcs to have something like that.
Maybe change the morphs up and make the Damage one negate Offensive Effects while the Healing one Negate Defensive Effects.
Bombard Spam is annoying..but I kind of feel like it should be...You're stacking up and running in a close knit group; things like Bombard should probably cause you trouble.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos0 -
Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭There have been worse; it will be fixed eventually. The real question is what problem(s) will surface when the fix comes.
Edited by Cody on June 22, 2016 3:11AM1 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The only way to expose this cheese is to shove it in everyone's nose . I finish grinding all classes so expect Limburger this weekend .1 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Rapids was changed because it made Zerg Balls extremely powerful...It needed to be nerfed.
Negate of course is super powerful; Not sure if they'll nerf it or not..as they seem to want Sorcs to have something like that.
Maybe change the morphs up and make the Damage one negate Offensive Effects while the Healing one Negate Defensive Effects.
Bombard Spam is annoying..but I kind of feel like it should be...You're stacking up and running in a close knit group; things like Bombard should probably cause you trouble.
That's the thing about bombard though, you don't actually have to be stacked up in a close knit group for it to still hit most of the group. Talons, yes. Encase, yes. Bombard, sit back and spam baby.
I think I dislike the bombard meta so much only because I find it the most detrimental to the fun I'd be able to eek out of a laggy Cyrodiil whether I'm in a group or running solo. I think I'm so cranky about the negate changes because I used to looooove Nova and ran it for our group, but there's literally no point any more to it. Our DKs probably felt the same once we took them off banner.0 -
Lore_lai✭✭✭✭✭Fix gap closers, ZoS!!!
It's ridiculous that you have to break a skill because you cannot police down what you (might) consider exploits (gap-closing into keeps)
"Uhhh....yeah guys, we can't police people gap-closing into keeps so we're just gonna overall break gap closers m'kay? Yeah I'm sure you find it highly entertaining when your Toppling fails over and over and over again because that person is just slightly uphill from you"
(BTW - I don't think some DK leaping into keeps is broken - if your zerg can't handle a couple of peeps leaping into your keep then I think you should re-evaluate your zerg - and stop point-and-click siege spamming "ERMAGHERD it's ONE DK!!!! we're all gunna die *panic and just light attack the air*")4 -
frozywozy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Fix gap closers, ZoS!!!
It's ridiculous that you have to break a skill because you cannot police down what you (might) consider exploits (gap-closing into keeps)
"Uhhh....yeah guys, we can't police people gap-closing into keeps so we're just gonna overall break gap closers m'kay? Yeah I'm sure you find it highly entertaining when your Toppling fails over and over and over again because that person is just slightly uphill from you"
(BTW - I don't think some DK leaping into keeps is broken - if your zerg can't handle a couple of peeps leaping into your keep then I think you should re-evaluate your zerg - and stop point-and-click siege spamming "ERMAGHERD it's ONE DK!!!! we're all gunna die *panic and just light attack the air*")
lmfaoFrozn - Stamdk - AR50
Frosted - Magplar - AR50
Frodn - Magden - AR50
Warmed - Magblade - AR50
Mmfrozy - Magsorc - AR44
Necrozn - Magcro - AR32
Twitch.TV/FrozyTV
PvP Group Builds
“Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events, and great minds discuss ideas.” -Eleanor Roosevelt- Fix Volendrung (spawn location - weapon white on the map causing the wielder to keep it forever - usable with emperorship)
- Remove / Change CPs System, remove current CP/noCP campaigns and introduce one 30days with lock, one with no locks
- Fix crashes when approaching a keep under attack because of bad / wrong rendering prioritization system
- Change emperorship to value faction score points and not alliance points - see this and this
- Fix long loading screens (mostly caused by players joining group out of rendering range)
- Add 2 more quickslots to the wheel or add a different wheel for sieges weaponry only
- Fix Balista Bolts not dealing damage on walls or doors if deployed at a certain place
- Release bigger battlegrounds with 8 to 16 players per team and only two teams
- Fix the permanent block animation - see examples : link1 link2 link3 link4 link5
- Gives players 10 minutes to get back into Cyrodiil after relogging / crashing
- Add a function to ignore the Claiming system of useless rewards
- Improve the Mailing System / Rewards of the Worthy stacking
- Assign specific group sizes to specific campaigns (24-16-8)
- Make forward camps impossible to place near objectives
- Make snares only available from ground effects abilities
- Change emperorship to last minimum 24hours
- Fix body sliding after cc breaking too quickly
- Remove Block Casting through Battle Spirit
- Fix the speed drop while jumping - see video
- Fix loading screens when keeps upgrade
- Fix Rams going crazy (spinning around)
- Bring back dynamic ulti regeneration
- Fix speed bug (abilities locked)
- Introduce dynamic population
- Lower population cap by 20%
- Add Snare Immunity potions
- Bring resurrection sickness
- Fix character desync
- Fix cc breaking bug
- Fix gap closer bug
- Fix health desync
- Fix combat bug
- Fix streak bug
- Fix server lag
1 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
So I am not alone. I also have these thoughts in my headJoy_Division wrote: »It's not the Negates that frustrate me. It's the spammable AoE roots that can be applied at range that also do decent damage that makes me want to throw my computer out the window.
Rapid should stay as it is now, otherwise groups will rush through breaches as they used to do.
One of the morphs from purge should be changed to "whenever you purge a root or snare you (only caster) receive 4s snare and root immunity"
Because I can!0 -
The-Baconator✭✭✭✭The sad part is at this point I really wouldn't even mind the changes if I could see negates about half of the time they're used. Negating thin air to counter negate a negate you think is there only to run in and realize a few more were dropped with no warning is beyond infuriating.First PS4 NA Grand Overlord, Stormproof, and Flawless Conqueror.
Potato Lord of Atrocity2 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rapids was changed because it made Zerg Balls extremely powerful...It needed to be nerfed.
Negate of course is super powerful; Not sure if they'll nerf it or not..as they seem to want Sorcs to have something like that.
Maybe change the morphs up and make the Damage one negate Offensive Effects while the Healing one Negate Defensive Effects.
Bombard Spam is annoying..but I kind of feel like it should be...You're stacking up and running in a close knit group; things like Bombard should probably cause you trouble.
That's the thing about bombard though, you don't actually have to be stacked up in a close knit group for it to still hit most of the group. Talons, yes. Encase, yes. Bombard, sit back and spam baby.
I think I dislike the bombard meta so much only because I find it the most detrimental to the fun I'd be able to eek out of a laggy Cyrodiil whether I'm in a group or running solo. I think I'm so cranky about the negate changes because I used to looooove Nova and ran it for our group, but there's literally no point any more to it. Our DKs probably felt the same once we took them off banner.
Negate though has always just been the counter to those Ults; so it's not like that has changed this patch. It has become more powerful in that you can't cc break it anymore but it's ult canceling effect hasn't changed.
As for bombard; if I could change one thing with that skill it would be remove the snare from bombard; leave it with the root.. Keep the snare on acid spray. That way you have two unique abilities.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos2 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.
Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.
It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.
However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.
I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.
I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.
Retreating spam doesn't do anything to bombard spam because the effect is removed with practically every skill you use. It doesn't help that bombard is ALSO applying poisons and the magic counter to this (purge) is broken as ffffff.
It's not just a counter to magica, it's a hard counter. With purge broken it's just about the most frustrating play I've ever engaged in lol. I mean yeah, we adjusted after a few horrible days of it, but it remains a form of gameplay that makes me want to break my keyboard. Watching 40 people spread out around me twanging endless bombards as they backpedal.... It brings tears to this Nord Princess' eyes.
One of the defining characteristics of a DK was the ability to aoe root. Bombard does it better, safer, and as steve mentioned - can apply poisons with ever cast. Why would you ever use talons or encase over bombard?
Why would you reward the bowtard way in the back more than the DK that needs to be in melee range and take risks? Why would you let the bowtard have the capacity to root such a large area compared to a DK that can only do it in 6m radius? It makes no sense, none. People can defend the root meta, theyre entitled to their opinions. No one can defend bombard being leagues above a DKs capacity to root.
The increased range in cryo probably shouldn't be applied to bombard. It is though... so the cone is far better than anything else.
Bombard spamming... eh. Bombard drains a lot of stamina. When I slot it I only use it situationally, and by that I mean when I see a whole group of clothies with proxy up... damn straight I'm gonna spam em with it. Nothing funnier than an entire bomb group standing in place with their proxy dets going off with no one near them.
The problem isn't just you doing it though, it encourages the zergs of 60+ to all do it. I think it was an ales fight where after dying my jaw dropped as I counted at least 14 bombard spammers (yes, one at a time, I actually counted them) off to the sides with people on siege and a ball group bombing. We probably had 16-18. That's the meta. That's what I tried to address as the problem. Should everybody just run that many and do the same thing? That sounds toxic, and it sounds like wrobel needs to take action on a problem he introduced over FIVE months ago.
Bombard drains no more stamina than other skills, I'm sorry, it's a non issue. It also does pretty good damage, so pretending like a group can charge in with retreating and not heal the good aoe damage being dumped on them is unrealistic. Retreating is useless except when out of combat now, I challenge any sane group to argue otherwise.
All weapon skill have a 20% chance to apply poisons. Couple this with the range AND the damage and of course bombard outclasses DK and sorcs. It's dumb, and we've played in the root meta long enough. Contrary to what you said, it's the antithesis of fun. On a yellow alt I did bombard spam for 3 days and saw firsthand how easy, safe, stupid, and effective it is. I took no pleasure in watching people from dying to something so toxic.
I don't have an issue with roots being changed, it's more an issue of how do you change it without making it totally trivial for stamina specs?
Because with all the bombard spamming right now, it's not really an issue for stamina specs that run shuffle and can roll dodge without issues.
The other thing is it's the only aoe that isn't a bad ground targeted ability or lackluster aoe for stamina builds.
Root spam, or CC spam of any kind, is bad for gameplay. Run speed already got Nerfed, you walk layered in caltrops, the main method of getting movement back was removed (retreating maneuvers), and it's root spam on top of it.
I'm going to say it again for clarity: CC lock is poor game design. No PvP meta should EVER (ever) revolve around spammable CC. It's a frustrating mode of play that is completely unnecessary.
As a final note, if your solution is "roll Stam" then there is a large problem. Just as there was with Impulse and Steel tornado metas, but at least with those you had control of your freaking character.
I guess the solution would be to grant immunity to particular types of roots, not all of them at once.
Oddly enough the primary reason I use bombard is it's the only snare I realistically have access to.
They could add immunity to the same exact root (ie the bombard root, the dk dark talons roots, the sorc encase line) for x duration after being affected by it.
The solution of "roll stam" isn't what I'm implying at all. But the solution of make it so bomb groups can't be countered isn't a solution either.
I'd be fine with a change, but just targeting bombard is silly. It's not like it suddenly became OP due to a change to it... it became OP because so many people started bombing and it's the most reasonable defense against it. The ability has existed as it currently is forever... the fact that with TG so many went magicka bomb builds made it powerful.
You're way off man. It became meta in TG because wrobel nerfed rapid maneuvers. It became even stronger in DB because of the bow based sets you can combine with the reintroduction of hawks eye, and the fact that it's the only air root capable of proccing poisons.
The mag bomb had nothing to do with bombard, it was the rapids nerf.
As an aside, silver shard will snare for you, and you have caltrops ...
Hehe if you play a nightblade you learn that if you ever want to ever get back into stealth you don't use caltrops. Silver shard is single target snare... not quite the same.
I don't go around blaming developers, it's silly and childish. The alliance war skills needed to be nerfed. Affecting a full raid was stupid OP.
But one thing to note is that good organized groups aren't wiped by bombard spam.
I get that low stamina and no stamina regen builds get testy over bombard. It sounds to me like all they want is bombard gone and neutered... without discussion.
You keep saying this. They aren't wiped by it, their wipes are caused by it. There's a difference. I play with or against the best NA PC pvp guilds, and they all are crippled by it. Anyone claiming otherwise (as I said before) is lying, or is not fighting competitively. If you feel so strongly about this, go ahead and name a single guild. I've watched them all get permarooted and wiped by superior numbers over the past few months.
It sounds like you think organized mini zergs should have no counter. I disagree.
As for the guilds I've seen that don't seem to be permaJoy_Division wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.
Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.
It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.
However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.
I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.
I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.
Interesting perspective. Next time I get, err, bombarded by stamina based players complaining that Jesus Beam is undodgable and uncounterable, I'll remember this logic.rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.
Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.
It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.
However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.
I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.
I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.
Retreating spam doesn't do anything to bombard spam because the effect is removed with practically every skill you use. It doesn't help that bombard is ALSO applying poisons and the magic counter to this (purge) is broken as ffffff.
It's not just a counter to magica, it's a hard counter. With purge broken it's just about the most frustrating play I've ever engaged in lol. I mean yeah, we adjusted after a few horrible days of it, but it remains a form of gameplay that makes me want to break my keyboard. Watching 40 people spread out around me twanging endless bombards as they backpedal.... It brings tears to this Nord Princess' eyes.
One of the defining characteristics of a DK was the ability to aoe root. Bombard does it better, safer, and as steve mentioned - can apply poisons with ever cast. Why would you ever use talons or encase over bombard?
Why would you reward the bowtard way in the back more than the DK that needs to be in melee range and take risks? Why would you let the bowtard have the capacity to root such a large area compared to a DK that can only do it in 6m radius? It makes no sense, none. People can defend the root meta, theyre entitled to their opinions. No one can defend bombard being leagues above a DKs capacity to root.
The increased range in cryo probably shouldn't be applied to bombard. It is though... so the cone is far better than anything else.
Bombard spamming... eh. Bombard drains a lot of stamina. When I slot it I only use it situationally, and by that I mean when I see a whole group of clothies with proxy up... damn straight I'm gonna spam em with it. Nothing funnier than an entire bomb group standing in place with their proxy dets going off with no one near them.
The problem isn't just you doing it though, it encourages the zergs of 60+ to all do it. I think it was an ales fight where after dying my jaw dropped as I counted at least 14 bombard spammers (yes, one at a time, I actually counted them) off to the sides with people on siege and a ball group bombing. We probably had 16-18. That's the meta. That's what I tried to address as the problem. Should everybody just run that many and do the same thing? That sounds toxic, and it sounds like wrobel needs to take action on a problem he introduced over FIVE months ago.
Bombard drains no more stamina than other skills, I'm sorry, it's a non issue. It also does pretty good damage, so pretending like a group can charge in with retreating and not heal the good aoe damage being dumped on them is unrealistic. Retreating is useless except when out of combat now, I challenge any sane group to argue otherwise.
All weapon skill have a 20% chance to apply poisons. Couple this with the range AND the damage and of course bombard outclasses DK and sorcs. It's dumb, and we've played in the root meta long enough. Contrary to what you said, it's the antithesis of fun. On a yellow alt I did bombard spam for 3 days and saw firsthand how easy, safe, stupid, and effective it is. I took no pleasure in watching people from dying to something so toxic.
I don't have an issue with roots being changed, it's more an issue of how do you change it without making it totally trivial for stamina specs?
Because with all the bombard spamming right now, it's not really an issue for stamina specs that run shuffle and can roll dodge without issues.
The other thing is it's the only aoe that isn't a bad ground targeted ability or lackluster aoe for stamina builds.
Root spam, or CC spam of any kind, is bad for gameplay. Run speed already got Nerfed, you walk layered in caltrops, the main method of getting movement back was removed (retreating maneuvers), and it's root spam on top of it.
I'm going to say it again for clarity: CC lock is poor game design. No PvP meta should EVER (ever) revolve around spammable CC. It's a frustrating mode of play that is completely unnecessary.
As a final note, if your solution is "roll Stam" then there is a large problem. Just as there was with Impulse and Steel tornado metas, but at least with those you had control of your freaking character.
I guess the solution would be to grant immunity to particular types of roots, not all of them at once.
Oddly enough the primary reason I use bombard is it's the only snare I realistically have access to.
They could add immunity to the same exact root (ie the bombard root, the dk dark talons roots, the sorc encase line) for x duration after being affected by it.
The solution of "roll stam" isn't what I'm implying at all. But the solution of make it so bomb groups can't be countered isn't a solution either.
I'd be fine with a change, but just targeting bombard is silly. It's not like it suddenly became OP due to a change to it... it became OP because so many people started bombing and it's the most reasonable defense against it. The ability has existed as it currently is forever... the fact that with TG so many went magicka bomb builds made it powerful.
You're way off man. It became meta in TG because wrobel nerfed rapid maneuvers. It became even stronger in DB because of the bow based sets you can combine with the reintroduction of hawks eye, and the fact that it's the only air root capable of proccing poisons.
The mag bomb had nothing to do with bombard, it was the rapids nerf.
As an aside, silver shard will snare for you, and you have caltrops ...
Hehe if you play a nightblade you learn that if you ever want to ever get back into stealth you don't use caltrops. Silver shard is single target snare... not quite the same.
I don't go around blaming developers, it's silly and childish. The alliance war skills needed to be nerfed. Affecting a full raid was stupid OP.
But one thing to note is that good organized groups aren't wiped by bombard spam.
I get that low stamina and no stamina regen builds get testy over bombard. It sounds to me like all they want is bombard gone and neutered... without discussion.
You keep saying this. They aren't wiped by it, their wipes are caused by it. There's a difference. I play with or against the best NA PC pvp guilds, and they all are crippled by it. Anyone claiming otherwise (as I said before) is lying, or is not fighting competitively. If you feel so strongly about this, go ahead and name a single guild. I've watched them all get permarooted and wiped by superior numbers over the past few months.
I would consider this "moving the goalposts".
All ball groups get overwhelmed eventually... Bombard does fairly decent damage (it's really your only ranged aoe damage abiltity as stamina) and that damage alone is enough to eventually whittle down a ball group.
What I was saying is that most of the organized group don't get rooted and stand there like some other groups do.
Furthermore, I think there is a bit of an exaggeration as to the actual effective range of it if you are trying to lock down a moving group. It's certainly not a safe from being targeted range. A lot of times you really need to be right on top of them to actually hit the bulk of the group.0 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Fix gap closers, ZoS!!!
It's ridiculous that you have to break a skill because you cannot police down what you (might) consider exploits (gap-closing into keeps)
"Uhhh....yeah guys, we can't police people gap-closing into keeps so we're just gonna overall break gap closers m'kay? Yeah I'm sure you find it highly entertaining when your Toppling fails over and over and over again because that person is just slightly uphill from you"
(BTW - I don't think some DK leaping into keeps is broken - if your zerg can't handle a couple of peeps leaping into your keep then I think you should re-evaluate your zerg - and stop point-and-click siege spamming "ERMAGHERD it's ONE DK!!!! we're all gunna die *panic and just light attack the air*")
Toppling charge being broken for 2+ years has clearly broken this poor templar.rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.
Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.
It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.
However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.
I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.
I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.
Retreating spam doesn't do anything to bombard spam because the effect is removed with practically every skill you use. It doesn't help that bombard is ALSO applying poisons and the magic counter to this (purge) is broken as ffffff.
It's not just a counter to magica, it's a hard counter. With purge broken it's just about the most frustrating play I've ever engaged in lol. I mean yeah, we adjusted after a few horrible days of it, but it remains a form of gameplay that makes me want to break my keyboard. Watching 40 people spread out around me twanging endless bombards as they backpedal.... It brings tears to this Nord Princess' eyes.
One of the defining characteristics of a DK was the ability to aoe root. Bombard does it better, safer, and as steve mentioned - can apply poisons with ever cast. Why would you ever use talons or encase over bombard?
Why would you reward the bowtard way in the back more than the DK that needs to be in melee range and take risks? Why would you let the bowtard have the capacity to root such a large area compared to a DK that can only do it in 6m radius? It makes no sense, none. People can defend the root meta, theyre entitled to their opinions. No one can defend bombard being leagues above a DKs capacity to root.
The increased range in cryo probably shouldn't be applied to bombard. It is though... so the cone is far better than anything else.
Bombard spamming... eh. Bombard drains a lot of stamina. When I slot it I only use it situationally, and by that I mean when I see a whole group of clothies with proxy up... damn straight I'm gonna spam em with it. Nothing funnier than an entire bomb group standing in place with their proxy dets going off with no one near them.
The problem isn't just you doing it though, it encourages the zergs of 60+ to all do it. I think it was an ales fight where after dying my jaw dropped as I counted at least 14 bombard spammers (yes, one at a time, I actually counted them) off to the sides with people on siege and a ball group bombing. We probably had 16-18. That's the meta. That's what I tried to address as the problem. Should everybody just run that many and do the same thing? That sounds toxic, and it sounds like wrobel needs to take action on a problem he introduced over FIVE months ago.
Bombard drains no more stamina than other skills, I'm sorry, it's a non issue. It also does pretty good damage, so pretending like a group can charge in with retreating and not heal the good aoe damage being dumped on them is unrealistic. Retreating is useless except when out of combat now, I challenge any sane group to argue otherwise.
All weapon skill have a 20% chance to apply poisons. Couple this with the range AND the damage and of course bombard outclasses DK and sorcs. It's dumb, and we've played in the root meta long enough. Contrary to what you said, it's the antithesis of fun. On a yellow alt I did bombard spam for 3 days and saw firsthand how easy, safe, stupid, and effective it is. I took no pleasure in watching people from dying to something so toxic.
I don't have an issue with roots being changed, it's more an issue of how do you change it without making it totally trivial for stamina specs?
Because with all the bombard spamming right now, it's not really an issue for stamina specs that run shuffle and can roll dodge without issues.
The other thing is it's the only aoe that isn't a bad ground targeted ability or lackluster aoe for stamina builds.
Root spam, or CC spam of any kind, is bad for gameplay. Run speed already got Nerfed, you walk layered in caltrops, the main method of getting movement back was removed (retreating maneuvers), and it's root spam on top of it.
I'm going to say it again for clarity: CC lock is poor game design. No PvP meta should EVER (ever) revolve around spammable CC. It's a frustrating mode of play that is completely unnecessary.
As a final note, if your solution is "roll Stam" then there is a large problem. Just as there was with Impulse and Steel tornado metas, but at least with those you had control of your freaking character.
I guess the solution would be to grant immunity to particular types of roots, not all of them at once.
Oddly enough the primary reason I use bombard is it's the only snare I realistically have access to.
They could add immunity to the same exact root (ie the bombard root, the dk dark talons roots, the sorc encase line) for x duration after being affected by it.
The solution of "roll stam" isn't what I'm implying at all. But the solution of make it so bomb groups can't be countered isn't a solution either.
I'd be fine with a change, but just targeting bombard is silly. It's not like it suddenly became OP due to a change to it... it became OP because so many people started bombing and it's the most reasonable defense against it. The ability has existed as it currently is forever... the fact that with TG so many went magicka bomb builds made it powerful.
You're way off man. It became meta in TG because wrobel nerfed rapid maneuvers. It became even stronger in DB because of the bow based sets you can combine with the reintroduction of hawks eye, and the fact that it's the only air root capable of proccing poisons.
The mag bomb had nothing to do with bombard, it was the rapids nerf.
As an aside, silver shard will snare for you, and you have caltrops ...
Hehe if you play a nightblade you learn that if you ever want to ever get back into stealth you don't use caltrops. Silver shard is single target snare... not quite the same.
I don't go around blaming developers, it's silly and childish. The alliance war skills needed to be nerfed. Affecting a full raid was stupid OP.
But one thing to note is that good organized groups aren't wiped by bombard spam.
I get that low stamina and no stamina regen builds get testy over bombard. It sounds to me like all they want is bombard gone and neutered... without discussion.
You keep saying this. They aren't wiped by it, their wipes are caused by it. There's a difference. I play with or against the best NA PC pvp guilds, and they all are crippled by it. Anyone claiming otherwise (as I said before) is lying, or is not fighting competitively. If you feel so strongly about this, go ahead and name a single guild. I've watched them all get permarooted and wiped by superior numbers over the past few months.
It sounds like you think organized mini zergs should have no counter. I disagree.
As for the guilds I've seen that don't seem to be permaJoy_Division wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.
Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.
It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.
However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.
I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.
I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.
Interesting perspective. Next time I get, err, bombarded by stamina based players complaining that Jesus Beam is undodgable and uncounterable, I'll remember this logic.rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.
Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.
It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.
However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.
I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.
I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.
Retreating spam doesn't do anything to bombard spam because the effect is removed with practically every skill you use. It doesn't help that bombard is ALSO applying poisons and the magic counter to this (purge) is broken as ffffff.
It's not just a counter to magica, it's a hard counter. With purge broken it's just about the most frustrating play I've ever engaged in lol. I mean yeah, we adjusted after a few horrible days of it, but it remains a form of gameplay that makes me want to break my keyboard. Watching 40 people spread out around me twanging endless bombards as they backpedal.... It brings tears to this Nord Princess' eyes.
One of the defining characteristics of a DK was the ability to aoe root. Bombard does it better, safer, and as steve mentioned - can apply poisons with ever cast. Why would you ever use talons or encase over bombard?
Why would you reward the bowtard way in the back more than the DK that needs to be in melee range and take risks? Why would you let the bowtard have the capacity to root such a large area compared to a DK that can only do it in 6m radius? It makes no sense, none. People can defend the root meta, theyre entitled to their opinions. No one can defend bombard being leagues above a DKs capacity to root.
The increased range in cryo probably shouldn't be applied to bombard. It is though... so the cone is far better than anything else.
Bombard spamming... eh. Bombard drains a lot of stamina. When I slot it I only use it situationally, and by that I mean when I see a whole group of clothies with proxy up... damn straight I'm gonna spam em with it. Nothing funnier than an entire bomb group standing in place with their proxy dets going off with no one near them.
The problem isn't just you doing it though, it encourages the zergs of 60+ to all do it. I think it was an ales fight where after dying my jaw dropped as I counted at least 14 bombard spammers (yes, one at a time, I actually counted them) off to the sides with people on siege and a ball group bombing. We probably had 16-18. That's the meta. That's what I tried to address as the problem. Should everybody just run that many and do the same thing? That sounds toxic, and it sounds like wrobel needs to take action on a problem he introduced over FIVE months ago.
Bombard drains no more stamina than other skills, I'm sorry, it's a non issue. It also does pretty good damage, so pretending like a group can charge in with retreating and not heal the good aoe damage being dumped on them is unrealistic. Retreating is useless except when out of combat now, I challenge any sane group to argue otherwise.
All weapon skill have a 20% chance to apply poisons. Couple this with the range AND the damage and of course bombard outclasses DK and sorcs. It's dumb, and we've played in the root meta long enough. Contrary to what you said, it's the antithesis of fun. On a yellow alt I did bombard spam for 3 days and saw firsthand how easy, safe, stupid, and effective it is. I took no pleasure in watching people from dying to something so toxic.
I don't have an issue with roots being changed, it's more an issue of how do you change it without making it totally trivial for stamina specs?
Because with all the bombard spamming right now, it's not really an issue for stamina specs that run shuffle and can roll dodge without issues.
The other thing is it's the only aoe that isn't a bad ground targeted ability or lackluster aoe for stamina builds.
Root spam, or CC spam of any kind, is bad for gameplay. Run speed already got Nerfed, you walk layered in caltrops, the main method of getting movement back was removed (retreating maneuvers), and it's root spam on top of it.
I'm going to say it again for clarity: CC lock is poor game design. No PvP meta should EVER (ever) revolve around spammable CC. It's a frustrating mode of play that is completely unnecessary.
As a final note, if your solution is "roll Stam" then there is a large problem. Just as there was with Impulse and Steel tornado metas, but at least with those you had control of your freaking character.
I guess the solution would be to grant immunity to particular types of roots, not all of them at once.
Oddly enough the primary reason I use bombard is it's the only snare I realistically have access to.
They could add immunity to the same exact root (ie the bombard root, the dk dark talons roots, the sorc encase line) for x duration after being affected by it.
The solution of "roll stam" isn't what I'm implying at all. But the solution of make it so bomb groups can't be countered isn't a solution either.
I'd be fine with a change, but just targeting bombard is silly. It's not like it suddenly became OP due to a change to it... it became OP because so many people started bombing and it's the most reasonable defense against it. The ability has existed as it currently is forever... the fact that with TG so many went magicka bomb builds made it powerful.
You're way off man. It became meta in TG because wrobel nerfed rapid maneuvers. It became even stronger in DB because of the bow based sets you can combine with the reintroduction of hawks eye, and the fact that it's the only air root capable of proccing poisons.
The mag bomb had nothing to do with bombard, it was the rapids nerf.
As an aside, silver shard will snare for you, and you have caltrops ...
Hehe if you play a nightblade you learn that if you ever want to ever get back into stealth you don't use caltrops. Silver shard is single target snare... not quite the same.
I don't go around blaming developers, it's silly and childish. The alliance war skills needed to be nerfed. Affecting a full raid was stupid OP.
But one thing to note is that good organized groups aren't wiped by bombard spam.
I get that low stamina and no stamina regen builds get testy over bombard. It sounds to me like all they want is bombard gone and neutered... without discussion.
You keep saying this. They aren't wiped by it, their wipes are caused by it. There's a difference. I play with or against the best NA PC pvp guilds, and they all are crippled by it. Anyone claiming otherwise (as I said before) is lying, or is not fighting competitively. If you feel so strongly about this, go ahead and name a single guild. I've watched them all get permarooted and wiped by superior numbers over the past few months.
I would consider this "moving the goalposts".
All ball groups get overwhelmed eventually... Bombard does fairly decent damage (it's really your only ranged aoe damage abiltity as stamina) and that damage alone is enough to eventually whittle down a ball group.
What I was saying is that most of the organized group don't get rooted and stand there like some other groups do.
Furthermore, I think there is a bit of an exaggeration as to the actual effective range of it if you are trying to lock down a moving group. It's certainly not a safe from being targeted range. A lot of times you really need to be right on top of them to actually hit the bulk of the group.
As I said twice already, the range on bombard is FAR greater than encase or talons. Talons is a defining characteristic of a DK, and is completely dwarfed in every way by bombard. You (incorrectly, I ran it and saw firsthand how easy it is to use) state that it's hard to land bombard on a group, but DKs have to be literally in the middle of a group to root people within a 6m radius. Every 'issue' you bring up with regarding bombard is more difficult for the people that were meant to actually be the aoe rooters. There was a risk to being a DK and getting that close to a group, that risk is greatly diminished for bombarders because of the range.
I'm really not understanding your point about organized groups. Yes, people can react to being rooted, the complaints are that you can be permarooted again and again and it's far easier for a bowtard to root you than it is for you to counter it. I can literally spam my purify now and not move more than 5m. There is no defending that, it's a terrible mechanic and a terrible meta. Let's also not pretend like we absolutely need permaroots because the dreaded ball group has no counter. Barrier rotation is gone, you have VD, you have fasalla's, you have stupidly high siege damage. Furthermore, the 'cure' to the ball group results in mega-zergs, which is far worse than any complaint you may have had about a ball group.Edited by Zheg on June 22, 2016 3:26PM2 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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As I said twice already, the range on bombard is FAR greater than encase or talons. Talons is a defining characteristic of a DK, and is completely dwarfed in every way by bombard. You (incorrectly, I ran it and saw firsthand how easy it is to use) state that it's hard to land bombard on a group, but DKs have to be literally in the middle of a group to root people within a 6m radius. Every 'issue' you bring up with regarding bombard is more difficult for the people that were meant to actually be the aoe rooters. There was a risk to being a DK and getting that close to a group, that risk is greatly diminished for bombarders because of the range.
I'm really not understanding your point about organized groups. Yes, people can react to being rooted, the complaints are that you can be permarooted again and again and it's far easier for a bowtard to root you than it is for you to counter it. I can literally spam my purify now and not move more than 5m. There is no defending that, it's a terrible mechanic and a terrible meta. Let's also not pretend like we absolutely need permaroots because the dreaded ball group has no counter. Barrier rotation is gone, you have VD, you have fasalla's, you have stupidly high siege damage. Furthermore, the 'cure' to the ball group results in mega-zergs, which is far worse than any complaint you may have had about a ball group.
I would assume a bow ability would have range....
Anyways, I love how you segue into bombard causes the zergs.
It's like they didn't exist until people discovered the bow builds.
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Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Negate is fine, by itself. It is limited in use by virtue of being an ultimate skill. (as an aside, its obvious power is a strong indication of the need to reduce nova and banner cost to 200)
Bombard, by itself, is a 22m AOE SPAMMABLE ROOT.
Negate + bombard --> no skillful counter.
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