Chicken or Egg?

Elsonso · June 2016

moesmaker wrote: »

Matt Firor (E3 2016):

"You don’t see a hardcore playstyle - like playing for six months and then quitting - we don’t see that. We have a lot of players who will play for two or three weeks because they want to get through a zone and then stop. Then they come back two months later for another month, because there’s no pressure to play all of it at once.

"Our DLC packs cater to that, because they’re smaller, bite-size chunks of story and associated quests."

Me (one day later):
But what if players leave because they played the new DLC, simply finished it, did all quests and achievements and find there is no more to do till the next DLC arrives? Then the DLC packs don't CATER to this playstyle, they CAUSE this playstyle.

Your thoughts?

Well, I don't know which direction the cause and effect goes, but I see they are making a "hotel" MMO where people go when they are on "vacation" from whatever they spend most of their time doing. I guess they want to be the game people leave for when they take a break.

I guess this makes sense. For one thing, transient vacation players are less likely to complain about PVP balance, class skills, and long term game issues. They always need to adapt to the game when they return, so balance issues are a minor problem. Vacation players just play. They aren't around long enough to complain, beyond bugs and immediate issues. I always suspected a massive group of "don't cares" out there, and now I know why.

Me... it is becoming clear that, as a long term player, I am waaaaay outside their target market. I need binoculars to see the target market players. So, this leaves me with the burning question: What is the game that others are taking the break from to play ESO? I want to go play that game.

Edit: I know some players are nomads, they wander from game to game. I am more interested in where the long term MMO players are at now.

Rune_Relic · June 2016

moesmaker wrote: »

@NeillMcAttack: I agree on most of what you say. Playerbases are very volatile atm, it's an accomplishment making a game that people keep returning to.

...or is it a sad inditement of the competition ?
That after being convinced the grass has to be greener on the other side.
They find thats simply not the case.

Rune_Relic · June 2016

Perhaps we should pay more attention to this...

The aim now is to sustain that momentum, and return to the kind of content that Firor knows ESO's players - both the MMO die-hards and the Bethesda faithful - expect to see. For many - this writer included - the missions associated with the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood were high-points in both Oblivion and Skyrim, and they are the focal points for ESO's content strategy in 2016. The Thieves Guild DLC launched in March, and Firor believes its early performance is likely to be mirrored when The Dark Brotherhood DLC is released in the coming weeks.

"We've found that the DLC, and the Thieves Guild especially, has been really good for re-acquisitions, which is about the people that used to play and don't any more, and trying to get them to come back in," Firor says. "A lot of people that used to play the game are waiting for that. The Dark Brotherhood will probably be more of the same."
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-05-19-the-elder-scrolls-online-added-millions-of-new-players-in-2015

The OP is like a knife being twisted in many ways from many views.
But I think it might just be bad communication thats been very easily misconstrued.

Uriel_Nocturne · June 2016

Egg, because evolution is real.

At some point, a precursor to the modern chicken (which means that creature is not a "chicken" as we know them) laid an egg with different genes that had evolved slightly from its ancestor. The creature that hatched is the chicken as we know it, and its specific mutation of genes allowed it to survive and thrive whereas the other creatures born with different genes alongside the chicken, were not able to survive and thrive.

Thus the inferior birds fowled out, and the modern chicken survived.

So; the egg came before the chicken, OP.

GrigorijMalahevich · June 2016

Egg egg egg - obviously.

P.S. That logic in the interview is really second to none. I have a strange feeling that knowledge or information according to which those comments were made - is very very sad.

Rohamad_Ali · June 2016

Matt needs to change his recipe for success

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XHfi9ib2D5Y

ContraTempo · June 2016

FerrumnCutem wrote: »

Orsinium was big and awesome, and it's always crowded. Tg and even Db zones are almost empty, the only thing ppl still do are the dailies or farming motifs. They should not continue doing small places with the only thing to keep you coming back is the daily. If it hadnt been for needing to level up the dark brotherhood skill line, I would have finished the quest in less than a day. Thieves guild = same story. Orsinium had so much, Hero of wrotghar was a fun search and quest, six farmable cool world bosses and Maelstrom arena. Thieves guild had two bosses and Maw of lorkhaj. Dark brotherhood has two bosses and zero other dungeons or trials. And they all had the same price, WHICH KINDA BRINGS ME TO THE POINT AND TOPIC OF THE DISCUSSION: I think I'm going to sub whenever a new dlc comes out. It probably won't take me more than a month to complete all the content. So yeah, it's their fault that people play for a month and stop for two months. Just make a bigger zone, more bosses and more collectibles and achievements. Pls Zos you are driving people away with the small "bites of story and quest".

That would also get you functional use of the crafting bag. Every 3 months you re-sub for a month which reloads the bag and clears out your inventory of mats.

Bouldercleave · June 2016

No matter how "big" a DLC is, you will still have a certain amount of players burning through it to be the first to say that they completed it. You see it every time an expansion comes out in EVERY game.

There are tons of things that I would love to see added to this game to enhance my personal enjoyment for the game - and most of those things many would complain are just time sinks that the raiding crowd would never use.

In the end it's an MMO with several MILLION active accounts across the globe. Try keeping millions of people happy at the same time - it's just not possible.

I think a lot of people took Matt's interview out of context as many like to think that an interview is directed solely at them and not the general public. If you look at the WHOLE picture, Matt is not wrong when it comes to the vast majority of MMO players.

SwaminoNowlino · June 2016

Bouldercleave wrote: »

No matter how "big" a DLC is, you will still have a certain amount of players burning through it to be the first to say that they completed it. You see it every time an expansion comes out in EVERY game.

There are tons of things that I would love to see added to this game to enhance my personal enjoyment for the game - and most of those things many would complain are just time sinks that the raiding crowd would never use.

In the end it's an MMO with several MILLION active accounts across the globe. Try keeping millions of people happy at the same time - it's just not possible.

I think a lot of people took Matt's interview out of context as many like to think that an interview is directed solely at them and not the general public. If you look at the WHOLE picture, Matt is not wrong when it comes to the vast majority of MMO players.

Fixed for you

Uriel_Nocturne · June 2016

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

No matter how "big" a DLC is, you will still have a certain amount of players burning through it to be the first to say that they completed it. You see it every time an expansion comes out in EVERY game.

There are tons of things that I would love to see added to this game to enhance my personal enjoyment for the game - and most of those things many would complain are just time sinks that the raiding crowd would never use.

In the end it's an MMO with several MILLION active accounts across the globe. Try keeping millions of people happy at the same time - it's just not possible.

I think a lot of people took Matt's interview out of context as many like to think that an interview is directed solely at them and not the general public. If you look at the WHOLE picture, Matt is not wrong when it comes to the vast majority of MMO players.

Fixed for you

How mature.

Regardless of what your misinformed opinion is, ZOS is the one with all of the numbers. If ZOS produces numbers stating that those accounts are active, then they're active.

Actually; I'd love to see your counter-evidence that proves that "there are not millions of active accounts".

I really would love to see that, if you can produce it.

Bouldercleave · June 2016

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

No matter how "big" a DLC is, you will still have a certain amount of players burning through it to be the first to say that they completed it. You see it every time an expansion comes out in EVERY game.

There are tons of things that I would love to see added to this game to enhance my personal enjoyment for the game - and most of those things many would complain are just time sinks that the raiding crowd would never use.

In the end it's an MMO with several MILLION active accounts across the globe. Try keeping millions of people happy at the same time - it's just not possible.

I think a lot of people took Matt's interview out of context as many like to think that an interview is directed solely at them and not the general public. If you look at the WHOLE picture, Matt is not wrong when it comes to the vast majority of MMO players.

Fixed for you

I didn't ask you to fix *** for me. The math is there and real even if you don't like it. I'm not talking ESO + members.

SwaminoNowlino · June 2016

Bouldercleave wrote: »

No matter how "big" a DLC is, you will still have a certain amount of players burning through it to be the first to say that they completed it. You see it every time an expansion comes out in EVERY game.

There are tons of things that I would love to see added to this game to enhance my personal enjoyment for the game - and most of those things many would complain are just time sinks that the raiding crowd would never use.

In the end it's an MMO with several MILLION active accounts across the globe. Try keeping millions of people happy at the same time - it's just not possible.

I think a lot of people took Matt's interview out of context as many like to think that an interview is directed solely at them and not the general public. If you look at the WHOLE picture, Matt is not wrong when it comes to the vast majority of MMO players.

Fixed for you

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

No matter how "big" a DLC is, you will still have a certain amount of players burning through it to be the first to say that they completed it. You see it every time an expansion comes out in EVERY game.

There are tons of things that I would love to see added to this game to enhance my personal enjoyment for the game - and most of those things many would complain are just time sinks that the raiding crowd would never use.

In the end it's an MMO with several MILLION active accounts across the globe. Try keeping millions of people happy at the same time - it's just not possible.

I think a lot of people took Matt's interview out of context as many like to think that an interview is directed solely at them and not the general public. If you look at the WHOLE picture, Matt is not wrong when it comes to the vast majority of MMO players.

Fixed for you

How mature.

Regardless of what your misinformed opinion is, ZOS is the one with all of the numbers. If ZOS produces numbers stating that those accounts are active, then they're active.

Actually; I'd love to see your counter-evidence that proves that "there are not millions of active accounts".

I really would love to see that, if you can produce it.

Chill man, no need to get all worked up. If you look at all of their statements, they rarely if ever include the qualifier of "active" accounts. How would you even measure active accounts on a B2P->F2P game? There is no account to cancel after you quit playing unless you're a sub. And if they had millions of subs you'd better believe they'd be banding that statistic about. I have no more evidence than you do, I can just base my judgement on the populations I experience on XBOX NA, which if applied consistently over the EU servers and different platforms would definitely not add up to multi-million active players. Just anecdotal, same as yours. I don't go the "lol" route of demonstrating when something is meant to be taken in jest or good-natured, but if an "lol" would have tempered your reaction then my bad.

Edit, didn't notice you weren't the OP, who commented after. Same response to you as well since you can't show me any statistics of their "active" players.

Cuyler · June 2016

If they say they're happy with "bite-sized", they're lying to you. At least that what my wife says

Semner · June 2016

@SantieClaws You are the hero Tamriel needs. Please always post. It brightens my day.

SwaminoNowlino · June 2016

Semner wrote: »

@SantieClaws You are the hero Tamriel needs. Please always post. It brightens my day.

Here Here

Bouldercleave · June 2016

No one will be able to show you active player base numbers, as ZoS has the data and they don't release it. It is VERY easy to pull log in data (which I'm sure that they do). They don't release the numbers to the public.

If the company is happy with the client base numbers, where the game is going, and is making the profit that they want, do you really think that they care when a handful of internet warriors go into a Mountain Dew fueled forum rage about how they do 8 less DPS than yesterday and that ZoS is killing their own game? It's laughable at BEST.

Cuyler · June 2016

Bouldercleave wrote: »

No one will be able to show you active player base numbers, as ZoS has the data and they don't release it. It is VERY easy to pull log in data (which I'm sure that they do). They don't release the numbers to the public.

If the company is happy with the client base numbers, where the game is going, and is making the profit that they want, do you really think that they care when a handful of internet warriors go into a Mountain Dew fueled forum rage about how they do 8 less DPS than yesterday and that ZoS is killing their own game? It's laughable at BEST.

Welcome to the forums! Have a seat grab some popcorn.

SwaminoNowlino · June 2016

@Bouldercleave Can't/Don't disagree with you there. But they have provided the forums as a way of receiving and incorporating feedback from their players. These players have every right to express their dissatisfaction and opinion, as long as it abides by TOS and Forum Rules. Same as you do. However if you are one of the folks who have decided there is absolutely nothing wrong with the game and its perfect in every way, a decision you are completely entitled to, I don't know what you expected when you saw what this thread was about. One may be inclined to think you came in here looking to argue. There are plenty of threads extolling the good parts of the game, and there are also several discussing people's dissatisfaction. You can choose where to devote your time and energy.

Bouldercleave · June 2016

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Bouldercleave Can't/Don't disagree with you there. But they have provided the forums as a way of receiving and incorporating feedback from their players. These players have every right to express their dissatisfaction and opinion, as long as it abides by TOS and Forum Rules. Same as you do. However if you are one of the folks who have decided there is absolutely nothing wrong with the game and its perfect in every way, a decision you are completely entitled to, I don't know what you expected when you saw what this thread was about. One may be inclined to think you came in here looking to argue. There are plenty of threads extolling the good parts of the game, and there are also several discussing people's dissatisfaction. You can choose where to devote your time and energy.

Feedback is always a good thing, but 99% of the time on these forums I don't see feedback - I see mindless rants from immature children that were never taught the value of diplomacy.

It gets very frustrating to see them day in and day out. The sad part is that many think that it's the way to create change because they were never taught that the art of being persuasive is of far more value than an insane tirade stating "if you don't fix my toon so I can kill everything and everyone, I'm going to take my business elsewhere".

bunnytrix · June 2016

The latter for sure.
That quote is just more ZOS lies to cover up the fact that there is no content at all in Dark Brotherhood.
Bite size chunks indeed. Literally.
6 episodes of a main quest. Another quest you have to repeat ad nauseam in different locations. And a couple of heists sacraments.
That's it.
Nothing else.
Finished in 2 hours if you were not forced to level up DB skill line to get next part of main.

Acrolas · June 2016

Matt is walking down the street.
Matt sees a dead bird on the street.
He made an observation.
Matt thinks that the bird died because a nightblade ganked it.
Matt made an inference.

Matt's observation is correct but his inference isn't.
And I think that's the problem. The inference comes without any desire to challenge it or offer other explanations.
And after a while, fallible inferences become assumptions. And assumptions are dangerous.

SwaminoNowlino · June 2016

Bouldercleave wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Bouldercleave Can't/Don't disagree with you there. But they have provided the forums as a way of receiving and incorporating feedback from their players. These players have every right to express their dissatisfaction and opinion, as long as it abides by TOS and Forum Rules. Same as you do. However if you are one of the folks who have decided there is absolutely nothing wrong with the game and its perfect in every way, a decision you are completely entitled to, I don't know what you expected when you saw what this thread was about. One may be inclined to think you came in here looking to argue. There are plenty of threads extolling the good parts of the game, and there are also several discussing people's dissatisfaction. You can choose where to devote your time and energy.

Feedback is always a good thing, but 99% of the time on these forums I don't see feedback - I see mindless rants from immature children that were never taught the value of diplomacy.

It gets very frustrating to see them day in and day out. The sad part is that many think that it's the way to create change because they were never taught that the art of being persuasive is of far more value than an insane tirade stating "if you don't fix my toon so I can kill everything and everyone, I'm going to take my business elsewhere".

I will dispute the 99% figure because their is a ton of great discussion on this forum that we actually see implemented in the game. It may not be implemented to people's satisfaction, but its still something.

Some of the stuff people are genuinely mad about, especially the cheating, is completely genuine. I'd argue that people being upset over what Matt said, even if they interpreted it incorrectly, is perfectly legitimate. Would be easy for someone from ZOS to come in here and say, "We here you all, and while we can't say anything more detailed, lets just say we think your concerns may be alleviated at Quakecon."

I do place a lot of the blame for toxicity in these forums at the feet of ZOS. Simple statements and communications with their player base, even if they say nothing of substance like what I said above, would go a long way towards good PR and customer service/relations.

Makkir · June 2016

I want more social, casual things to do. These DLCs have kept us on Solo missions, playing for a few weeks then going off to play something else. The very nature of an MMO should be to bring people together. Cyrodiil does that fine.

I want to log in and see an alert that Deadric forces are attacking Wayrest, and after crashing to desktop 3 times trying to get there, I want to help the city ward off the invaders with other players.

WoW had world bosses. I remember playing when the Panda Bear expansion went Live and there was one world boss that respawned like every 2 days (It was the giant kodo looking boss in the green pasture looking area). Been a while, and I forget all the names now.

It's easy to implement these types of encounters, and especially cool if put on random timers.

TerraDewBerry · June 2016

moesmaker wrote: »

Matt Firor (E3 2016):

"You don’t see a hardcore playstyle - like playing for six months and then quitting - we don’t see that. We have a lot of players who will play for two or three weeks because they want to get through a zone and then stop. Then they come back two months later for another month, because there’s no pressure to play all of it at once.

"Our DLC packs cater to that, because they’re smaller, bite-size chunks of story and associated quests."

Me (one day later):
But what if players leave because they played the new DLC, simply finished it, did all quests and achievements and find there is no more to do till the next DLC arrives? Then the DLC packs don't CATER to this playstyle, they CAUSE this playstyle.

Your thoughts?

I completely agree. If there were more sustainable content, then there would be more players who played longer and on a more consistent basis. Also, I think this is more or less an excuse for recent DLCs being small, and not having very much to really do. Don't get me wrong, they are extremely well done... just not a whole lot of substance to them outside of a couple of weeks or less of playing them.

I don't know, if I were creating content for ESO.. I would want there to be more.. so much that people don't have enough time maybe to "do it all" before the next big thing comes out. At least to me, that's what makes a game feel interesting, active, engaging, and worth playing..

lordrichter wrote: »

Well, I don't know which direction the cause and effect goes, but I see they are making a "hotel" MMO where people go when they are on "vacation" from whatever they spend most of their time doing. I guess they want to be the game people leave for when they take a break.

I guess this makes sense. For one thing, transient vacation players are less likely to complain about PVP balance, class skills, and long term game issues. They always need to adapt to the game when they return, so balance issues are a minor problem. Vacation players just play. They aren't around long enough to complain, beyond bugs and immediate issues. I always suspected a massive group of "don't cares" out there, and now I know why.

Me... it is becoming clear that, as a long term player, I am waaaaay outside their target market. I need binoculars to see the target market players. So, this leaves me with the burning question: What is the game that others are taking the break from to play ESO? I want to go play that game.

Edit: I know some players are nomads, they wander from game to game. I am more interested in where the long term MMO players are at now.

Yeah.. if they are trying to set ESO up as the game you cheat on your real game with.. I want to be playing that other game.. what game is that? I want to play the game that keeps me coming back everyday.. the game I'm thinking about playing when I should be working or doing something else... I want ESO to be that game..

Cuyler wrote: »

If they say they're happy with "bite-sized", they're lying to you. At least that what my wife says

Your wife is correct.. "bite size" is really not "fun size."

makreth · June 2016

I think chicken first, since microorganisms evolved into more complexed organisms slowly but they did, according to darwin's theory. Thus, egg came later.

Uriel_Nocturne · June 2016

makreth wrote: »

I think chicken first, since microorganisms evolved into more complexed organisms slowly but they did, according to darwin's theory. Thus, egg came later.

Actually; the current understanding if Evolution would lead to the Egg being first.

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Egg, because evolution is real.

At some point, a precursor to the modern chicken (which means that creature is not a "chicken" as we know them) laid an egg with different genes that had evolved slightly from its ancestor. The creature that hatched is the chicken as we know it, and its specific mutation of genes allowed it to survive and thrive whereas the other creatures born with different genes alongside the chicken, were not able to survive and thrive.

Thus the inferior birds fowled out, and the modern chicken survived.

So; the egg came before the chicken, OP.

idk · June 2016

Unfortunately Zos doesn't not analyze their metrixs well. Remember that they said the average player would max out CP (3600 points) in less than 2 years.

They also do not define a hard core player accurately. A hard core player isn't someone who quits after 6 months of heavy playing but one who plays hard and often pushing the limits of their gameplay and works to tackle the more challenging content. The reason this player would leave is a lack of new challenging content entering the game. Think 2015 before IC for a great example of this.

Their gathering of data and how they view the data is flawed critically. Firor's comments merely reflect that.

makreth · June 2016

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

makreth wrote: »

I think chicken first, since microorganisms evolved into more complexed organisms slowly but they did, according to darwin's theory. Thus, egg came later.

Actually; the current understanding if Evolution would lead to the Egg being first.

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Egg, because evolution is real.

At some point, a precursor to the modern chicken (which means that creature is not a "chicken" as we know them) laid an egg with different genes that had evolved slightly from its ancestor. The creature that hatched is the chicken as we know it, and its specific mutation of genes allowed it to survive and thrive whereas the other creatures born with different genes alongside the chicken, were not able to survive and thrive.

Thus the inferior birds fowled out, and the modern chicken survived.

So; the egg came before the chicken, OP.

assuming that organism could have eggs. Perhaps the evolution had began and the chicken or chicken-like was already up there but did not produce eggs rather babies !

TerraDewBerry · June 2016

makreth wrote: »

I think chicken first, since microorganisms evolved into more complexed organisms slowly but they did, according to darwin's theory. Thus, egg came later.

I think it's egg first, because mutations of DNA give rise to evolutionary change in a species..

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/<? echo $baseURL; ?>/mutations_05

Silverado · June 2016

Xabien wrote: »

moesmaker wrote: »

Matt Firor (E3 2016):

"You don’t see a hardcore playstyle - like playing for six months and then quitting - we don’t see that. We have a lot of players who will play for two or three weeks because they want to get through a zone and then stop. Then they come back two months later for another month, because there’s no pressure to play all of it at once.

"Our DLC packs cater to that, because they’re smaller, bite-size chunks of story and associated quests."

Me (one day later):
But what if players leave because they played the new DLC, simply finished it, did all quests and achievements and find there is no more to do till the next DLC arrives? Then the DLC packs don't CATER to this playstyle, they CAUSE this playstyle.

Your thoughts?

I was thinking the exact same thing this morning

Sure players leave and come back, but maybe that data has been misinterpreted as 'that's how people like to play', instead of 'they leave because there isn't enough to play'. Personally I prefer to stick to one mmo over the long term and invest in it, but there needs to be reason for me to be able to do that.

I am the same way in regards to playing long term and investing in it. I guess we will find out soon enough whether people really will come back for the smaller content once it has been released. It will be interesting to see what happens.