Chicken or Egg?

moesmaker

Matt Firor (E3 2016):

"You don’t see a hardcore playstyle - like playing for six months and then quitting - we don’t see that. We have a lot of players who will play for two or three weeks because they want to get through a zone and then stop. Then they come back two months later for another month, because there’s no pressure to play all of it at once.

"Our DLC packs cater to that, because they’re smaller, bite-size chunks of story and associated quests."


Me (one day later):
But what if players leave because they played the new DLC, simply finished it, did all quests and achievements and find there is no more to do till the next DLC arrives? Then the DLC packs don't CATER to this playstyle, they CAUSE this playstyle.

Your thoughts?

Tryxus

KFC

HoloYoitsu

It's not a good idea to call Matt out with interview quotes. The last thread I made that was just that simply got deleted.

ItsGlaive

moesmaker wrote: »

Matt Firor (E3 2016):

"You don’t see a hardcore playstyle - like playing for six months and then quitting - we don’t see that. We have a lot of players who will play for two or three weeks because they want to get through a zone and then stop. Then they come back two months later for another month, because there’s no pressure to play all of it at once.

"Our DLC packs cater to that, because they’re smaller, bite-size chunks of story and associated quests."


Me (one day later):
But what if players leave because they played the new DLC, simply finished it, did all quests and achievements and find there is no more to do till the next DLC arrives? Then the DLC packs don't CATER to this playstyle, they CAUSE this playstyle.

Your thoughts?

I was thinking the exact same thing this morning

Sure players leave and come back, but maybe that data has been misinterpreted as 'that's how people like to play', instead of 'they leave because there isn't enough to play'. Personally I prefer to stick to one mmo over the long term and invest in it, but there needs to be reason for me to be able to do that.

HoloYoitsu

Xabien wrote: »

moesmaker wrote: »

Matt Firor (E3 2016):

"You don’t see a hardcore playstyle - like playing for six months and then quitting - we don’t see that. We have a lot of players who will play for two or three weeks because they want to get through a zone and then stop. Then they come back two months later for another month, because there’s no pressure to play all of it at once.

"Our DLC packs cater to that, because they’re smaller, bite-size chunks of story and associated quests."


Me (one day later):
But what if players leave because they played the new DLC, simply finished it, did all quests and achievements and find there is no more to do till the next DLC arrives? Then the DLC packs don't CATER to this playstyle, they CAUSE this playstyle.

Your thoughts?

I was thinking the exact same thing this morning

Sure players leave and come back, but maybe that data has been misinterpreted as 'that's how people like to play', instead of 'they leave because there isn't enough to play'. Personally I prefer to stick to one mmo over the long term and invest in it, but there needs to be reason for me to be able to do that.

ZOS has a proud history of misrepresenting data, need I remind you of "7 million"?

And let's not forget the famous FPS chart from ESO Live, which was an aggregate of every single FPS log in every single zone in the game from patch to patch, making it 100% useless at extrapolating any kind of information with regards to performance changes.

moesmaker

@HoloYoitsu: I don't call out Matt Firor, not at all. I just couldn't follow his logic and wondered: maybe it's the other way around.

HoloYoitsu

moesmaker wrote: »

@HoloYoitsu: I don't call out Matt Firor, not at all. I just couldn't follow his logic and wondered: maybe it's the other way around.

I know you aren't, I was being ironic because my thread like yours was just a couple quotes from one of his recent interviews, and it was deleted within 24 hours. Quite sad.

But to answer your OP,

Matt Firor wrote:

Don't waste your time looking at new stuff; keep this happening because it's going really well.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-05-19-the-elder-scrolls-online-added-millions-of-new-players-in-2015

He wants to cater to people who "play for two or three weeks", but he doesn't want them to "waste time looking at new stuff [games]". I don't think there is a long term vision for this game.

ku5h

Just another example of how little ZoS actually know about MMOs, its comunity, and what MMO players actually want in their games. They are just complete amateurs it that field.

SantieClaws

Khajiit thinks both chickens and eggs are very tasty.

However if this one only could have one she would take the chicken. A bigger meal is usually a better meal yes? Also the feathers they are fun to play with.

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

Kas

moesmaker wrote: »

Matt Firor (E3 2016):

"You don’t see a hardcore playstyle - like playing for six months and then quitting - we don’t see that. We have a lot of players who will play for two or three weeks because they want to get through a zone and then stop. Then they come back two months later for another month, because there’s no pressure to play all of it at once.

"Our DLC packs cater to that, because they’re smaller, bite-size chunks of story and associated quests."


Me (one day later):
But what if players leave because they played the new DLC, simply finished it, did all quests and achievements and find there is no more to do till the next DLC arrives? Then the DLC packs don't CATER to this playstyle, they CAUSE this playstyle.

Your thoughts?

Agree a hundred times. Same thing with the CP cap, amount of PvP updates, and availability of end-game raids between SO and MOL. The more you cater for a certain playstyle, the more you'll see that in your players. The delayed console release has initially sparked this.

The game catered for people who would start more than a year later from the very beginning.

ItsGlaive

Kas wrote: »

moesmaker wrote: »

Matt Firor (E3 2016):

"You don’t see a hardcore playstyle - like playing for six months and then quitting - we don’t see that. We have a lot of players who will play for two or three weeks because they want to get through a zone and then stop. Then they come back two months later for another month, because there’s no pressure to play all of it at once.

"Our DLC packs cater to that, because they’re smaller, bite-size chunks of story and associated quests."


Me (one day later):
But what if players leave because they played the new DLC, simply finished it, did all quests and achievements and find there is no more to do till the next DLC arrives? Then the DLC packs don't CATER to this playstyle, they CAUSE this playstyle.

Your thoughts?

The more you cater for a certain playstyle, the more you'll see that in your players.

Or to put it another way - 'confirmation bias'. I agree entirely

FerrumnCutem

Orsinium was big and awesome, and it's always crowded. Tg and even Db zones are almost empty, the only thing ppl still do are the dailies or farming motifs. They should not continue doing small places with the only thing to keep you coming back is the daily. If it hadnt been for needing to level up the dark brotherhood skill line, I would have finished the quest in less than a day. Thieves guild = same story. Orsinium had so much, Hero of wrotghar was a fun search and quest, six farmable cool world bosses and Maelstrom arena. Thieves guild had two bosses and Maw of lorkhaj. Dark brotherhood has two bosses and zero other dungeons or trials. And they all had the same price, WHICH KINDA BRINGS ME TO THE POINT AND TOPIC OF THE DISCUSSION: I think I'm going to sub whenever a new dlc comes out. It probably won't take me more than a month to complete all the content. So yeah, it's their fault that people play for a month and stop for two months. Just make a bigger zone, more bosses and more collectibles and achievements. Pls Zos you are driving people away with the small "bites of story and quest".

moesmaker

@FerrumnCutem : I couldn't agree more and I too am thinking about only subbing when a new DLC is being released. I don't want that, for me ESO is the perfect game, it's gorgeous, but when I play an MMORPG I want to do it continuously. It's all about the development of my character(s) and, in comparison, I also don't raise my kids with an on-and-off schedule.

Turelus

I actually found that statement from Matt pretty insulting.

I have been subscribed to this game since launch and played more than any other game in the last two years, I took breaks from holidays or release of game like Fallout 4 but always came back and stayed subbed the entire time. For my first year here I spent almost every day in Cyrodiil doing PvP with a huge community of 80+ who did the same.

No hardcore players...

joker0137

New game?

SantieClaws

This one thinks they sort of need things in Tamriel to 'invest' in - aside from your own character.

Things you want to log in to grow and improve. Something to give you a foot in the world long term. Something that once you have put the effort in you want to come back to.

Housing would be one of these yes. Maybe also a small business - something to extend the idea of trading and crafting and make it worth logging in for those things as well as to complete the quests. Maybe even a small farm. Things that add a little more of 'I am living a life' as well as tasks to complete.

Khajiit thinks maybe the lack of a global trading system is also lacking here but they have said they will not change that.

This one also thinks 'One Tamriel' will help because it will remove a large division in the community. At the end of the day community and friends is always the greatest incentive to keep returning to Tamriel. A few festivals would also help.

At the end of the day khajiit wants to be entertained - or to have the ability to find her own entertainment with friends. Enable these things and all will be well.

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

Tryxus

Maybe Tamriel isn't as big as they thought it was. If they were to release 4 whole zones every year, we'd have all of Tamriel unlocked sooner than you think

Got milk?

NeillMcAttack

He is actually spot on in his data, that can not be denied, they even have far more information on this than we can only imagine. To say that the way they release DLC ' causes' this is, simply misguiding and dishonest.

These DLC's were planned for years now. And as far as I can tell, with regards people "leaving" and coming back, according to my friends list it has far more to do with the releases of other titles. And many of those players that return, rarely even jump straight into the new content, they simply pick up where they left off, straight back doing pledges, trying to get groups for Cyro and IC, etc. that straight away should tell us that they had always intended to return, and that is not easy to do these days and should actually be respected as a fine achievement.

So what came first? People's freedom of choice on how they would like to consume content.

The Uninvited

moesmaker wrote: »

But what if players leave because they played the new DLC, simply finished it, did all quests and achievements and find there is no more to do till the next DLC arrives? Then the DLC packs don't CATER to this playstyle, they CAUSE this playstyle.

Your thoughts?

My thoughts? My thoughts exactly.

SwaminoNowlino

One of my good friends in the game mained a tank. Orsinium came out, no new content for him to do, as completing VMSA would require him to spend a ton of gold to keep respecing. Quit playing. Thieves guild game out, he played for about a week, did some dailies, and ran MoL a couple times. Finding large competent groups to do VMoL was impossible, so he quit. DB came out, nothing for him to do, said f it and deleted the game. If each of these new DLCs had come with new vet dungeons, he'd probably still be playing and buying crowns. My friends list has largely died because people got bored of the lack of content.

SantieClaws

A long time ago this one lived another life. In a place called Middle Earth in the guise of a Dwarf called Rosiebelle Rabbitbane.

Six years this one walked in the shoes of Rosie. This one thinks back now to the reasons she stayed and the reasons she moved on.

The reasons she stayed - a great guild with no limit on the numbers, good friends, a house, a kin house, the entertainment value of being one of very few female dwarves, entertaining festivals several times a year, a great music system that allowed you to form your own entertainment with the friends, fireworks, large number of emotes allowing for good social communication.

The reasons she left - timers on festival quests that could only be removed by paying additional money, gradual drifting away of guildmates to other worlds, paying for skill tomes, generally having to pay extra for breathing, no beard ribbons despite years of asking, Tamriel came into being.

There is much to think on and consider here this one thinks.

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

moesmaker

@NeillMcAttack : Sad to read you call my post misguiding and dishonest. I simply wonder what comes first, the chicken or the egg.

If the DLCs cater to a certain playstyle, then it is A certain playstyle, not mine. As I said, I play MMORPGs to develop my characters and I don't do that on and off, but continuously.

I find it hard to believe that ZOS' intentions are that players subscribe on and off. The loss of income that is involved can't be their purpose

NeillMcAttack

moesmaker wrote: »

@NeillMcAttack : Sad to read you call my post misguiding and dishonest. I simply wonder what comes first, the chicken or the egg.

If the DLCs cater to a certain playstyle, then it is A certain playstyle, not mine. As I said, I play MMORPGs to develop my characters and I don't do that on and off, but continuously.

I find it hard to believe that ZOS' intentions are that players subscribe on and off. The loss of income that is involved can't be their purpose

Cater is a bad wording on his part, I'll give you that. And granted, dishonest may have been a bad choice of word on mine, but, to assume that players reacting to ZOS's plan in this way is caused by how they are releasing content, or, that players feel forced to approach the game in this manner due to it, is, terribly misleading. And should you have simply understood that it's more a case that this is simply how players consume content of this and other games relative to outside influence (other games they want to play) then you would be being dishonest. Again, admittedly, not that you were.

The fact is that this is just how many players approach games now, and the fact that there always is more and more content to return to is fantastic for all of us. That is what he meant by 'catering'.

Don't get me wrong, I am like you, I tend to treat the current games I play like they are the only games out but that doesn't mean that I don't understand how many others choose to approach their own gaming habits. Of course ZOS would like all players to come and stay for good. But it is actually an amazing achievement, as far as the gaming market goes, that players are constantly returning here.

moesmaker

@NeillMcAttack: I agree on most of what you say. Playerbases are very volatile atm, it's an accomplishment making a game that people keep returning to.

ADarklore

Over in DCUO they had the same problem... and made even worse with their monthly 'episodes'... players would come back for quarterly DLC releases, play them to death for two weeks and then leave again. With monthly episodes, players are gone for longer, then return to play several 'monthly episodes' over a few weeks and then leave again for several more months.

Perhaps 'One Tamriel' will help keep players because it gives them something more to do... like sticking around to help lowbies level, because at least now they will be getting XP which is something for their time. Having guilds that can play all over Tamriel, etc... sounds good on paper, but I don't like the idea of having little to no content during this whole 'conversion process'.

FerrumnCutem

I really wouldnt mind to have orsinium sized 2 dlc's per year instead of 8 weeks of fun with 4 tg sized dlc's. And with the housing coming in august or fall 2016 or whatever, I really hope they do not count housing as a whole dlc.....
I don't know the statistics, but I think not everyone likes the idea of player housing. I would be fine with it since it is more content.
If I wouldn't be doing dungeons every day, I would be running out of content to play very fast. It's been 17 days since Db launch, and I haven't been in the gold coast for 3 days. I have every achievement except for the sacrament daily ones. But sacraments are terribly tedious! I don't see any point in doing them since all you get is sithis gear, which is pretty bad.
So i completed Db in two weeks.
Same with tg.
Orsinium and Ic I still play everyday.
That should really give a good view of what type of dlc is more liked.
"Small bites of story" is a terrible idea. Im just gonna sub for 4 months per year when a dlc comes out

Epona222

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

He is actually spot on in his data, that can not be denied, they even have far more information on this than we can only imagine. To say that the way they release DLC ' causes' this is, simply misguiding and dishonest.

These DLC's were planned for years now. And as far as I can tell, with regards people "leaving" and coming back, according to my friends list it has far more to do with the releases of other titles. And many of those players that return, rarely even jump straight into the new content, they simply pick up where they left off, straight back doing pledges, trying to get groups for Cyro and IC, etc. that straight away should tell us that they had always intended to return, and that is not easy to do these days and should actually be respected as a fine achievement.

So what came first? People's freedom of choice on how they would like to consume content.

"These DLCs" were supposed to be in at launch, and were delayed. The only thing we have had so far that wasn't supposed to be in at launch is Wrothgar.

BigBragg

I always thought that fried chicken was the most metal meal possible. Bathing the dead carcass of a mother in her unborn children before drenching it in hot oil. All to be knashed at with teeth and hands. Love it!

On topic, yes I think more in depth content that couldn't be run through in a few days would keep people playing longer, but what do I know. I just spend money on the silly things.

greylox

Leaving after only 6 months is hardly hardcore.

Pendrillion

Also, do they even take the PC population into account, or was he merely speaking about console populace. Or is the fluctuation really that high across the board...

Also does ZOS really think that the fluctuation is different compared to other MMOs? Do they take into account that this MMO MIGHT be more attractive for more seasoned players, but more seasoned means 30+ and a lot of responsibilities.

Also is there analysis about age specific customer behaviour? Furthermore, are young players between 18 and 30 the majority of the current player populace...

Does Zenimax company think about the fact that this Online game draws his hype mainly from past Bethsoft projects. Which are old... and contribute to this "older populace" ingame.

Is Zenimax aware that the MMO aspects compared to the industry standard aren't exactly met. At least thats what you hear.

Are MMO's really something that can be a longtime investment for years to come? After all, most of the original player populace has phased out of the Target group of between 15-35 age range. At least those who played vanilla WOW or even Ultima Online.

Just a few questions that cross my mind.

lucky_Sage

its a mmo they need long lasting dlc mmos are made by the community not the players her play 2 weeks every couple of months if you cater to that game will fail the game has so much potential so much good stuff has been canceled or pushed back pvp in crime system and spellcrafting
we need dlc that make people play together and build bonds that's why wow did so well it wasn't the game it was the communities then they started to make the game to easy and for casuals and now they don't release sub count anymore from the like 15 mil they had in wotlk