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I feel not offering crafting bags "for purchase" is disingenuous
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Callous2208✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »@Blackbird71 , it is because people know that the crafting bag is an extreme advantage and want to be on the winning side of the game rather than the side that deals with hours of inventory micro-management. Who wouldn't want potential opponents to be at a disadvantage?
What do I win for having a more organized inventory than someone else? What do I do with all this free time while the non-sub hoarders micro manager their inventories?
you win hours of your life - read a book.
Any suggestions? I need some good summer reading material.
The Ego and It's Own
And my dive into modern European civilization and its ideologies begins.
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Xundiin✭✭✭✭Blackbird71 wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »clocksstoppe wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »clocksstoppe wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »clocksstoppe wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »This also doesn't make them selfish, greedy
Wanting nonsubs to never be able to access the craft bags is definitely not selfish or greedy right? LOL.
Wanting subs to never have a worthwhile perk is definitely not selfish or greedy right? LOL. I was a kid once too. I can still hang with your poorly thought out teenage arguments.
But you already have worthwhile perks, like the craft bag. What are you talking about? Nobody here asked for it to be removed from ESO plus.
I have no words. I'll try though. You realize what a perk is...right? The craft bag is the only worthwhile perk. Why would I continue to sub if the only worthwhile perk is a one time purchase from the crown store? I feel like you're just messing with me on that last comment. You do realize that before the craft bag, buying crowns on sale throughout the year, then using them to buy the dlc's outright is actually a better option than subbing, right? Having the only good perk obtainable in some other, cheaper in the long run fashion, kinda makes it less than appealing to sub for that "perk." Doesn't it now?
Listen, i know what motivation ZOS has to do this, lke you and everyone already knows, money. What I don't understand is why there are so many people supporting this shady business practice. I'm talking about why the community of subs supports this. Because I can't find any rational reason for it other than hating nonsubs at this point. I want to hear YOUR reason, not ZOS' reason.
I don't find it the least bit shady and can't for the life of me figure out why you and some others do. Why are you stating that they are doing this for money like it's some sort of bad thing or dirty word? I like the crafting bag, it's great. Why would I not support that. Everyone else who likes it can have it too, with the price of the sub. Why in your mind is a sub perk shady, all about the money and somehow wrong, and a crown store purchase a shining example of purity and fair business practice. A subscription is what it is. I don't have HBO because I know my neighbor doesn't and I hate him. I can't seem to follow this logic. They announced it as a subscriber perk, it went in as a subscriber perk. End of story. What's the big deal? Where is the greed and shady business practice in that? You've made no argument whatsoever as to why this is a bad thing, but demand I tell you why I think it's good and why I won't agree that it falls under some corporate big money scam. You want me to agree that owning a subscription to something and enjoying the perks, somehow denotes that I hate everyone without said subscription. Why?Blackbird71 wrote: »Because most of us realize that this is a good business practice as opposed to being a shady one.
This right here. Shady business practices are things like cutting baby formula with industrial plastic or dumping toxic waste by a playground. This is a freaking inventory expansion in a video game for Stendarr's sake!
Making a promise to customers on which they base their purchase choices and then changing that promise would also qualify as a "shady business practice". Video game or not, the business is still subject to ethical standards, and a business practice does not have to cause bodily harm to qualify as shady.
By your standard ZOS could never add anything to ESO+ ever again for fear of being labeled "unethical" and "dishonest." They never once promised that ESO+ was always going to be the way it was when it went B2P, and in fact the crafting bag was floated as a possible subscriber perk all the way back in early 2015.
Not to sound too condescending, but your position is silly. Not liking a thing or its price does not make it unethical.
Since apparently reading one page back is too difficult for some people, I'll quote my previous post (currently on page 6):Blackbird71 wrote: »Here is the problem that is at the crux of the crafting bag issue. When ZOS chose to change the game to launch Tamriel Unlimited, they established that there were now two legitimate and equally acceptable methods of getting access to the content of ESO: players could purchase the game, and then maintain a monthly subscription which would get them continued access to all of the game's content, or they could purchase the game, and then purchase access to additional content as it became available ala carte. It is worth noting that many other MMOs have employed one or the other of these pay models, but few have implemented both at the same time. Regardless, when ZOS established both of these models as options for their players and customers, they declared that both would be equally valid methods to access the content of ESO. This was their promise to us, and different players with different preferences each chose to invest in one or the other of these methods based on that promise.
Now, with the introduction of crafting bags as a subscriber-only benefit, with no equivalent option for the alternative purchase model, ZOS has made one of these two models less valid than the other. This clearly runs contrary to their initial declaration and promise, so yes it is disingenuous, as it casts doubt on their integrity, and it raises the question of what ZOS may do in the future to further invalidate and delegitimize one of the pay methods which we were told was equally acceptable as an option. In the case of many of us, this is being done after ZOS has accepted significant amounts of our money under this pay model, which only serves to further destroy customer trust in ZOS' ethics and integrity.
I can only speak for myself in this last part, but I know that I for one will not subscribe to gain access to these craft bags, specifically because I choose not to reward dishonest business practices. It will also likely be some time before I purchase any more crowns, as ZOS will have to regain my trust as a customer before I do so, and once my trust is lost, it is very difficult to earn back.
Calling this unethical, dishonest, shady, etc., has nothing to do with "disliking a price"; it has everything to do with going back on a promise; a promise that both methods of accessing content would be equally viable, and that no content available to one would be locked out from the other.
Trying to diminish this argument by claiming it is about "disliking a price" is intellectually dishonest, as you ignore the issues claimed by those making complaints and substitute your own version in order to make it an easier target to attack. This is commonly known as a "strawman argument".
They haven't gone back on a promise. Crafting bags are not content. It's a quality of life thing. They made no promises to not put those types of things behind a pay gate. Ever.
Content are things that add quests, zones, trials, dungeons, ect. That's content. Adding better inventory management isn't content. There is no quest for it. You sub, you get it.
Also you're argument that DLC's are perks is.... thin at best. Most people who Sub ALSO buy the DLC;s because they love their game and want to show support. So yeah.... DLC as a perk is very very thin for an argument.#SavePlayer12 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
This conversation is over, there's nothing more to address here. It's over, it's done, it's just complaining for the sake of complaining. There's no constructive conversation. There's nothing left to construct.
Can you guys give me the authority to just shut these threads down? I promise not to abuse it.
Seriously. I'll be good. Just give me a very selective "Lock" button."As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?2 -
Luigi_Vampa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »Police Departments are a business, but should they be writing more speeding tickets? Well of course, because they want to make money don't they? Shouldn't we just go along with that?
Can ZOS pull you over and make you play their game? You don't actually ever have to deal with ZOS if you don't want to. ZOS has no power over you, the Police can abuse the power they wield over you. It is just a slight difference, I guess.
[Edit to remove baiting]Edited by [Deleted User] on June 15, 2016 1:34AMPC/EU DC0 -
Volkodav✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭clocksstoppe wrote: »OP, the interesting thing you will notice is that there has not been a single comment from any ZOS employee on this matter and there never will be. The reason: they are ashamed of this greedy cash grab forced onto them by management. Anyone with half a brain knows it's a big issue for people who purchased DLC and that it's wrong to not offer them the option to buy the bag.
The problem is, of course, that subs find comfort from the fact that they are being extorted for this crafting bag by laughing at people in your situation. It's quite sad how selfish, greedy, and shallow most subs are. You will never get their support on this matter.
Im not being extorted.I have subbed for a little over two y ears,and there was no bag.So,your point is moot.You are rude and your coment is uncalled for in regards to people who subscribe.
You are saying that if people subscribe they are greedy,shallow,and selfish?
Please explain what other players who sub have done to cause you to think such shallow and unkind thoughts about them?
I know I have never done a thing to you for you to call me those things.
I cant be selfish if I pay out money every month,I cant be greedy if I pay for what I have,and I cant be shallow,in regards to this game,because that word just doesnt fit the situation at hand.
Shallow =
1. Judging a person based strictly on looks, not factoring in their personality whatsoever.
(I could care less what you or anyone else looks like)
2. Having only a short distance from the top to the bottom.
(I'm actually 5'5" so I am not that short from top to bottom.)
3. Someone who is concerned only about silly or inconsequential things.
(All of us in this forum are shallow.We are all concerned with things in a game which are inconsequential in real life)
You can make your point without calling people who wish to pay for their game names because you dont like that they do pay.
This lets me know you do not sub,and are rather snobbish in your thoughts of others who do sub.
They support this game more than you do,even if you buy crowns.Unless you pay $15.00 every single month for crowns.Edited by Volkodav on June 15, 2016 12:41AM0 -
Volkodav✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »
The situation in question here isnt about the "paltry XP".NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Here is the problem ....it is a base game feature "locked behind" a subscription requirement. It goes against everything ZOS announced about Tamriel Unlimited for base game updates.
Which expansion does the paltry experience point bonus that ESO subscribers get belong to? You know, the one behind a pay wall.
Its about whether the crafting bags are right in being "locked behind" a pay wall.
Well considering the fact that ZOS didnt have to add it, chose to add it and did so with the intention of giving it to Subscribers as a loyalty perk from the get go. The whole "base game patch" logic doesnt really have any legs to stand on.
ESO + Subscribers also gain -- Extra XP - This effects the Base Game. No ones making the claim that that is base game and now everyone is entitled to it.
- Extra Gold - Also effects the Base Game. Also no one seems to be making this argument.
- Reduced Research - Definitely effects Base game but still, no one is making claims that it does and hence belongs to everyone.
- Extra Crafting XP - Just as above.
Its funny, every last one of those perks have been considered generally garbage by those that do not partake in the Sub but still purchase crowns. But suddenly a pretty nifty and useful perk comes along. It suddenly effects something everyone wants more room of. And suddenly we start seeing absurd arguments for why everyone should get it.
I'm on your side with all the perks,as I do sub.0 -
Volkodav✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Justice31st wrote: »
The situation in question here isnt about the "paltry XP".NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Here is the problem ....it is a base game feature "locked behind" a subscription requirement. It goes against everything ZOS announced about Tamriel Unlimited for base game updates.
Which expansion does the paltry experience point bonus that ESO subscribers get belong to? You know, the one behind a pay wall.
Its about whether the crafting bags are right in being "locked behind" a pay wall.
Crafting bags are not locked behind a paywall since the game already offers bags that can hold crafting items. An example of locking content behind a pay wall would be Zenimax putting the best end game weapons in Maelstrom Arena which can only be obtained if you pay for the Wrothgar DLC content (this is behind a paywall.)
I do not say they are,DANG IT!
Read what I did say! I commented on someone else's comment as to them saying that it IS locked behind a wall.Jeez.Check the other comments before you guys attack.0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »Police Departments are a business, but should they be writing more speeding tickets? Well of course, because they want to make money don't they? Shouldn't we just go along with that?
Can ZOS pull you over and make you play their game? You don't actually ever have to deal with ZOS if you don't want to. ZOS has no power over you, the Police can abuse the power they wield over you. It is just a slight difference, I guess.
ZOS can make anyone who is playing the game deal with any number of would be terrible changes. If it was for the best profit that everyone in the game be totally reset to having nothing at all, then ZOS could do that despite none of us being forced to play the game and despite what would be the outrage of many people.
A business without customers giving feedback is sure to become perverse. A business that doesn't cater to customers feedback is sure to become anti-consumer.Edited by [Deleted User] on June 15, 2016 1:34AMRest in Peace:
The Dragonknight
2014-2025
This commemoration is for the class that has constantly been plundered and dismantled by designers for no obvious reason while other classes continue to have coherent skill lines and feel both powerful and cool.0 -
Volkodav✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭clocksstoppe wrote: »clocksstoppe wrote: »OP, the interesting thing you will notice is that there has not been a single comment from any ZOS employee on this matter and there never will be. The reason: they are ashamed of this greedy cash grab forced onto them by management. Anyone with half a brain knows it's a big issue for people who purchased DLC and that it's wrong to not offer them the option to buy the bag.
The problem is, of course, that subs find comfort from the fact that they are being extorted for this crafting bag by laughing at people in your situation. It's quite sad how selfish, greedy, and shallow most subs are. You will never get their support on this matter.
Sometimes I wonder if people think Matt Firor is like Dr. Claw or something, sitting in an aged leather chair in front of a roaring fire, gently stroking an overweight housecat while cackling "Yeeesss... the tears of the unsubscribed sustain me."
Seriously, it's a subscription perk for a video game, not the first step towards some horrific dystopian future.
And your point is?
Point being that it isnt that big of a deal.0 -
Blackbird71✭✭✭Blackbird71 wrote: »Because most of us realize that this is a good business practice as opposed to being a shady one.
It's dishonest. See my post on the previous page if you don't understand why. But a dishonest business practice by definition is not a good business practice. It may be effective (as long as no one calls you out on it, and the majority of your customers will go along with it quietly), but it is not good.
It's not dishonest. It's a smart business move. I know what your argument is. It's just specious.
You may disagree with it, but it is hardly specious. In order for it to be specious, it has to be based on a false premise. Here are the two key facts behind my argument:- When launching Tamriel Unlimited, ZOS declared that no content or features would be wholly inaccessible to either pay method.
- ZOS has made a feature which is specifically inaccessible to one pay method.
Which of those above statements is false? To paraphrase a previous poster, just because you don't like an argument doesn't make it invalid. What is specious is this idea that a perk also being available for purchase somehow negates it being a perk.
And so far as the making money aspect, I'm not asking ZOS not to make money on this. Quite the contrary, I'm asking them to take my money (according to the terms they previously established), and they are flatly refusing to do so. And so, they will not have it. And really, that is the bottom line here: ZOS has lost my business over this. I do not appreciate feeling that a business is trying to take advantage of me, nor do I appreciate a business failing to keep their promises. If more players took the same approach, then we might actually effect a change and hold ZOS to keeping their word.
However, I don't expect that to happen. Gamers as a whole have proven to have little actual conviction. As for me personally, I'm far too stubborn to give in on this, and when I feel that I am being pushed in a direction I do not wish to go, I just push back even harder.
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wayfarerx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Blackbird71 wrote: »When launching Tamriel Unlimited, ZOS declared that no content or features would be wholly inaccessible to either pay method.
This is your false premise. What you've said here is Matt Firor fan fiction, it never really happened.@wayfarerx - PC / North America / Aldmeri Dominion1 -
Elara_Northwind✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The amount of money that long term subscribers have put into this game over the past two years, and continue to do so, I think that we deserve to have perks, in fact, I think we should have more even, as we are the ones who give the game a regular income. If you choose to just buy all of the content outright, then that is your own choice, but I have bought all of the content too, and I still subscribe, and I am sure many others do the same thing! A stable monthly source of income is detrimental in order for the game to continue, so attracting new subscribers is nothing but a good thing, to keep the game that so many people love up and running as we want it to be. This is enough of a reason alone to give the people who subscribe, and give zenimax a monthly income, some sort of extra benefit that is not available to those who choose not to do so...
Edited by Elara_Northwind on June 15, 2016 1:05AMSorcerer, Templar, Wolf Collector, Housing Addict!
GM of Salted Wings Tavern and Salted Wings Housing 🏠🌻
'A House is Built with Boards and Beams, a Home is Built with Love and Dreams'
Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/c/ElaraNorthwind0 -
Blackbird71✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »Blackbird71 wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »clocksstoppe wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »clocksstoppe wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »clocksstoppe wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »This also doesn't make them selfish, greedy
Wanting nonsubs to never be able to access the craft bags is definitely not selfish or greedy right? LOL.
Wanting subs to never have a worthwhile perk is definitely not selfish or greedy right? LOL. I was a kid once too. I can still hang with your poorly thought out teenage arguments.
But you already have worthwhile perks, like the craft bag. What are you talking about? Nobody here asked for it to be removed from ESO plus.
I have no words. I'll try though. You realize what a perk is...right? The craft bag is the only worthwhile perk. Why would I continue to sub if the only worthwhile perk is a one time purchase from the crown store? I feel like you're just messing with me on that last comment. You do realize that before the craft bag, buying crowns on sale throughout the year, then using them to buy the dlc's outright is actually a better option than subbing, right? Having the only good perk obtainable in some other, cheaper in the long run fashion, kinda makes it less than appealing to sub for that "perk." Doesn't it now?
Listen, i know what motivation ZOS has to do this, lke you and everyone already knows, money. What I don't understand is why there are so many people supporting this shady business practice. I'm talking about why the community of subs supports this. Because I can't find any rational reason for it other than hating nonsubs at this point. I want to hear YOUR reason, not ZOS' reason.
I don't find it the least bit shady and can't for the life of me figure out why you and some others do. Why are you stating that they are doing this for money like it's some sort of bad thing or dirty word? I like the crafting bag, it's great. Why would I not support that. Everyone else who likes it can have it too, with the price of the sub. Why in your mind is a sub perk shady, all about the money and somehow wrong, and a crown store purchase a shining example of purity and fair business practice. A subscription is what it is. I don't have HBO because I know my neighbor doesn't and I hate him. I can't seem to follow this logic. They announced it as a subscriber perk, it went in as a subscriber perk. End of story. What's the big deal? Where is the greed and shady business practice in that? You've made no argument whatsoever as to why this is a bad thing, but demand I tell you why I think it's good and why I won't agree that it falls under some corporate big money scam. You want me to agree that owning a subscription to something and enjoying the perks, somehow denotes that I hate everyone without said subscription. Why?Blackbird71 wrote: »Because most of us realize that this is a good business practice as opposed to being a shady one.
This right here. Shady business practices are things like cutting baby formula with industrial plastic or dumping toxic waste by a playground. This is a freaking inventory expansion in a video game for Stendarr's sake!
Making a promise to customers on which they base their purchase choices and then changing that promise would also qualify as a "shady business practice". Video game or not, the business is still subject to ethical standards, and a business practice does not have to cause bodily harm to qualify as shady.
By your standard ZOS could never add anything to ESO+ ever again for fear of being labeled "unethical" and "dishonest." They never once promised that ESO+ was always going to be the way it was when it went B2P, and in fact the crafting bag was floated as a possible subscriber perk all the way back in early 2015.
Not to sound too condescending, but your position is silly. Not liking a thing or its price does not make it unethical.
Since apparently reading one page back is too difficult for some people, I'll quote my previous post (currently on page 6):Blackbird71 wrote: »Here is the problem that is at the crux of the crafting bag issue. When ZOS chose to change the game to launch Tamriel Unlimited, they established that there were now two legitimate and equally acceptable methods of getting access to the content of ESO: players could purchase the game, and then maintain a monthly subscription which would get them continued access to all of the game's content, or they could purchase the game, and then purchase access to additional content as it became available ala carte. It is worth noting that many other MMOs have employed one or the other of these pay models, but few have implemented both at the same time. Regardless, when ZOS established both of these models as options for their players and customers, they declared that both would be equally valid methods to access the content of ESO. This was their promise to us, and different players with different preferences each chose to invest in one or the other of these methods based on that promise.
Now, with the introduction of crafting bags as a subscriber-only benefit, with no equivalent option for the alternative purchase model, ZOS has made one of these two models less valid than the other. This clearly runs contrary to their initial declaration and promise, so yes it is disingenuous, as it casts doubt on their integrity, and it raises the question of what ZOS may do in the future to further invalidate and delegitimize one of the pay methods which we were told was equally acceptable as an option. In the case of many of us, this is being done after ZOS has accepted significant amounts of our money under this pay model, which only serves to further destroy customer trust in ZOS' ethics and integrity.
I can only speak for myself in this last part, but I know that I for one will not subscribe to gain access to these craft bags, specifically because I choose not to reward dishonest business practices. It will also likely be some time before I purchase any more crowns, as ZOS will have to regain my trust as a customer before I do so, and once my trust is lost, it is very difficult to earn back.
Calling this unethical, dishonest, shady, etc., has nothing to do with "disliking a price"; it has everything to do with going back on a promise; a promise that both methods of accessing content would be equally viable, and that no content available to one would be locked out from the other.
Please refrain from quoting me when I have not engaged you in conversation up to this point. Why you felt the need to quote my response to another posters question, directed specifically to me, is beyond reason. Why are you directing me to a lengthy post full of sensationalism and half truths that you wrote earlier, when at no point did I comment on said post or directly to you? Reading one page back is not too difficult for me, but it would seem reading to see which individuals have engaged you in discussion is.
You stated:
My response was an attempt to explain this reasoning, since as you stated, you did not understand it. I was attempting to be helpful by offering an explanation which might help your understanding. I did not expect you to agree with it, but thought you might at least come to respect the opposing viewpoint. And then you have the audacity to accuse me of half-truths? I suppose "respect" was too much to hope for.Callous2208 wrote: »I don't find it the least bit shady and can't for the life of me figure out why you and some others do.
And if you can't handle being quoted or being addressed, you should probably stop participating in this or other forums. The whole "don't talk to me unless I talk to you first" approach really doesn't work in an open forum discussion, sorry.
Edited by Blackbird71 on June 15, 2016 12:55AM0 -
Blackbird71✭✭✭Blackbird71 wrote: »When launching Tamriel Unlimited, ZOS declared that no content or features would be wholly inaccessible to either pay method.
This is your false premise. What you've said here is Matt Firor fan fiction, it never really happened.
That one has been referenced, quoted, cited, and sourced numerous times over the course of several of these threads. If you think that is false, then you clearly live in denial of the facts, and there is no reasoning with you.1 -
Volkodav✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Blackbird71 wrote: »Blackbird71 wrote: »Because most of us realize that this is a good business practice as opposed to being a shady one.
It's dishonest. See my post on the previous page if you don't understand why. But a dishonest business practice by definition is not a good business practice. It may be effective (as long as no one calls you out on it, and the majority of your customers will go along with it quietly), but it is not good.
It's not dishonest. It's a smart business move. I know what your argument is. It's just specious.
You may disagree with it, but it is hardly specious. In order for it to be specious, it has to be based on a false premise. Here are the two key facts behind my argument:- When launching Tamriel Unlimited, ZOS declared that no content or features would be wholly inaccessible to either pay method.
- ZOS has made a feature which is specifically inaccessible to one pay method.
Which of those above statements is false? To paraphrase a previous poster, just because you don't like an argument doesn't make it invalid. What is specious is this idea that a perk also being available for purchase somehow negates it being a perk.
And so far as the making money aspect, I'm not asking ZOS not to make money on this. Quite the contrary, I'm asking them to take my money (according to the terms they previously established), and they are flatly refusing to do so. And so, they will not have it. And really, that is the bottom line here: ZOS has lost my business over this. I do not appreciate feeling that a business is trying to take advantage of me, nor do I appreciate a business failing to keep their promises. If more players took the same approach, then we might actually effect a change and hold ZOS to keeping their word.
However, I don't expect that to happen. Gamers as a whole have proven to have little actual conviction. As for me personally, I'm far too stubborn to give in on this, and when I feel that I am being pushed in a direction I do not wish to go, I just push back even harder.
Maybe not that many players who pay money have a reason to take your stance on the issue.
The silly bags arent really "perks" as those are given freely.They are "subscription incentives".
Meaning something to incite you to subscribe. a temptation,so to speak.
Just because you might think you have a loop hole to whittle on,it wont make any difference to anyone other than those who didnt get the bag.
Why get so incensed about the thing? It's just an inventory expansion.Not an OP weapon or anything.
And why would you make it some type of quest to go on,like Don Quixote,in an attempt to get ZOS to change it.,They wont.And even in they do,..it wont be for a long time.0 -
Luigi_Vampa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »Police Departments are a business, but should they be writing more speeding tickets? Well of course, because they want to make money don't they? Shouldn't we just go along with that?
Can ZOS pull you over and make you play their game? You don't actually ever have to deal with ZOS if you don't want to. ZOS has no power over you, the Police can abuse the power they wield over you. It is just a slight difference, I guess.
ZOS can make anyone who is playing the game deal with any number of would be terrible changes. If it was for the best profit that everyone in the game be totally reset to having nothing at all, then ZOS could do that despite none of us being forced to play the game and despite what would be the outrage of many people.
A business without customers giving feedback is sure to become perverse. A business that doesn't cater to customers feedback is sure to become anti-consumer.
You compared an inventory management tool in a video game to Police abuse of power. Let that sink in.
As per your example though. If you could explain how something like that is even potentially profitable please do. Extreme examples don't really sink in when they make no sense.
When it comes to a completely voluntary and non-essential business, anything profitable that they do implies that people still want to give them money. If they exploit us horrendously then we won't pay. Consumers will go find a company that isn't so bad at running a business. Nobody has to play ESO. We don't have to give them money. Sure you can give them feedback and hopefully they do listen to their consumers wants, but not doing so isn't causing you harm. It is a video game and you don't have to play it.
If a business becomes anti-consumer then they lose customers and cease to be a business. It kind of regulates itself *this applies to non essential businesses. Power, water, police services etc... Operate under different regulations because people can die*Edited by [Deleted User] on June 15, 2016 1:35AMPC/EU DC0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DarkWombat wrote: »Please hear me out. I understand that half of you will disagree with me on the spot, because you are subscribers.
But a lot of us have chosen to not subscribe, and have purchased the expansions. I would say for sure the community is split between people who subscribe and the ones that "purchase" the content.
I feel for that the crafting bags need to be a Crown Store purchase, just like the expansions.
Why? it's simple. What kind of message are you sending to those that purchased all the content? You are telling them they have to subscribe to get this. And if they subscribe, there would have been no point in purchasing anything previous because you get that with the subscription.
I really hope soon that crafting bags are added to the crown store.
Purchasing DLC is waaaaay cheaper than subbing. There was a point in buying previously. Even if you sub now, you saved a lot of money buying instead of subbing over the past year. All the DLC pre-DB was 2500+3000+2000 crowns or 7500 crowns.
There has been DLC since the end of August last year (IC). So If you subbed from Sept 2015-May2016 (pre-DB), that would be 9 months of sub. If you compute using the lowest price, you can buy 6 months of sub for $13 a month. 9 x $13 = $111.
So people who subbed since IC payed at least $111 in sub money. People who bought the 3 DLC outright payed only 7500 crowns. Even ignoring people like me who bought their crowns at the rate of 5500 for $24, it only costs $40 for 5500 crowns. The math is clear. The sub brings in a lot more money than selling DLC outright.
While I many be a minority in that I buy zero crown store cosmetics, to some degree the 1500 crowns can balance the scales some for people who sub. If we add up the sub awards to the DLC cost, we can get a total crown amount that subbing provided those that subbed since IC:
9 months x 1500 crowns = 13500 crowns.
13500 crowns + 7500 crowns for value of DLC = 21000 crowns.
So, for players who are going to buy items from the crown store regardless of whether or not they sub, we can estimate the value they are getting by 21000 crowns / $111 = 189 crowns per dollar.
The value of buying 5500 packs is 5500 / $40 = 138 crowns per dollar.
For people like me who bought all their crowns on sale, 5500 / $24 = 229 crowns per dollar, clearly the best deal, whether or not you buy things from the crown store.
Since I have zero interest in mounts or in costumes, the 1500 crowns only have value for me in that I can use them down the road to buy future DLC. So essentially, the value I would get from a sub is just the 13500 crowns.
There is another important variable here. Since I own the first 3 DLC, I do not need to spend another cent to maintain access to it. People who sub do. This gives subbers a strong initiative to remain subbed. Plus, since they don't need to buy DLC and have a stockpile of crowns, they are more likely to spend them on things they would never have bought if they had to buy crowns individually. They buy into the illusion that the crowns didn't cost them anything, though they clearly did when you compare numbers. ZOS gets more money from more impulse crown store purchase because it means people are either still stuck in the sub cycle or they have to buy more crowns to buy old DLC to retain access.
Personally, I subbed for one month when DB dropped. I cancelled my sub as soon as I purchased the 30 days. I will finish DB in that month and my crafting bags have freed up inventory. Than I will sub again when the next DLC drops. If there are 4 DLC a year, that means I will spend $60 a year. Maybe I'll even skip a DLC and run through 2 DLC for one month's sub. I have no idea how to do that math for people like me who are fine coming and going.
In summary, if all you buy is DLC from the crown store, you spend a lot less money than people who sub to maintain access to DLC. If you buy a lot of other items from the crown store apart from DLC, than it is possible that you spend as much or more than people who sub.0 -
Davor✭✭✭✭✭
✭FortheloveofKrist wrote: »
Thank you. I appreciate the answer. I didn't know that. Game is updating now, so will check it out once game is done updating.
Not my quote but I love this saying
"I would pay It for support. But since they choosed we are just numbers and not customers, i dont mind if game and zos goes to oblivion"0 -
rotaugen454✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I sub. If they sell the bag, I cancel my sub and just buy the DLC I want. If they don't, I keep my sub. It's as simple as that.
And as someone who has been in corporate finance for nearly 30 years, I can tell you that Sunk Cost is a real thing when weighing financial options."Get off my lawn!"1 -
Callous2208✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Blackbird71 wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »Blackbird71 wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »clocksstoppe wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »clocksstoppe wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »clocksstoppe wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »This also doesn't make them selfish, greedy
Wanting nonsubs to never be able to access the craft bags is definitely not selfish or greedy right? LOL.
Wanting subs to never have a worthwhile perk is definitely not selfish or greedy right? LOL. I was a kid once too. I can still hang with your poorly thought out teenage arguments.
But you already have worthwhile perks, like the craft bag. What are you talking about? Nobody here asked for it to be removed from ESO plus.
I have no words. I'll try though. You realize what a perk is...right? The craft bag is the only worthwhile perk. Why would I continue to sub if the only worthwhile perk is a one time purchase from the crown store? I feel like you're just messing with me on that last comment. You do realize that before the craft bag, buying crowns on sale throughout the year, then using them to buy the dlc's outright is actually a better option than subbing, right? Having the only good perk obtainable in some other, cheaper in the long run fashion, kinda makes it less than appealing to sub for that "perk." Doesn't it now?
Listen, i know what motivation ZOS has to do this, lke you and everyone already knows, money. What I don't understand is why there are so many people supporting this shady business practice. I'm talking about why the community of subs supports this. Because I can't find any rational reason for it other than hating nonsubs at this point. I want to hear YOUR reason, not ZOS' reason.
I don't find it the least bit shady and can't for the life of me figure out why you and some others do. Why are you stating that they are doing this for money like it's some sort of bad thing or dirty word? I like the crafting bag, it's great. Why would I not support that. Everyone else who likes it can have it too, with the price of the sub. Why in your mind is a sub perk shady, all about the money and somehow wrong, and a crown store purchase a shining example of purity and fair business practice. A subscription is what it is. I don't have HBO because I know my neighbor doesn't and I hate him. I can't seem to follow this logic. They announced it as a subscriber perk, it went in as a subscriber perk. End of story. What's the big deal? Where is the greed and shady business practice in that? You've made no argument whatsoever as to why this is a bad thing, but demand I tell you why I think it's good and why I won't agree that it falls under some corporate big money scam. You want me to agree that owning a subscription to something and enjoying the perks, somehow denotes that I hate everyone without said subscription. Why?Blackbird71 wrote: »Because most of us realize that this is a good business practice as opposed to being a shady one.
This right here. Shady business practices are things like cutting baby formula with industrial plastic or dumping toxic waste by a playground. This is a freaking inventory expansion in a video game for Stendarr's sake!
Making a promise to customers on which they base their purchase choices and then changing that promise would also qualify as a "shady business practice". Video game or not, the business is still subject to ethical standards, and a business practice does not have to cause bodily harm to qualify as shady.
By your standard ZOS could never add anything to ESO+ ever again for fear of being labeled "unethical" and "dishonest." They never once promised that ESO+ was always going to be the way it was when it went B2P, and in fact the crafting bag was floated as a possible subscriber perk all the way back in early 2015.
Not to sound too condescending, but your position is silly. Not liking a thing or its price does not make it unethical.
Since apparently reading one page back is too difficult for some people, I'll quote my previous post (currently on page 6):Blackbird71 wrote: »Here is the problem that is at the crux of the crafting bag issue. When ZOS chose to change the game to launch Tamriel Unlimited, they established that there were now two legitimate and equally acceptable methods of getting access to the content of ESO: players could purchase the game, and then maintain a monthly subscription which would get them continued access to all of the game's content, or they could purchase the game, and then purchase access to additional content as it became available ala carte. It is worth noting that many other MMOs have employed one or the other of these pay models, but few have implemented both at the same time. Regardless, when ZOS established both of these models as options for their players and customers, they declared that both would be equally valid methods to access the content of ESO. This was their promise to us, and different players with different preferences each chose to invest in one or the other of these methods based on that promise.
Now, with the introduction of crafting bags as a subscriber-only benefit, with no equivalent option for the alternative purchase model, ZOS has made one of these two models less valid than the other. This clearly runs contrary to their initial declaration and promise, so yes it is disingenuous, as it casts doubt on their integrity, and it raises the question of what ZOS may do in the future to further invalidate and delegitimize one of the pay methods which we were told was equally acceptable as an option. In the case of many of us, this is being done after ZOS has accepted significant amounts of our money under this pay model, which only serves to further destroy customer trust in ZOS' ethics and integrity.
I can only speak for myself in this last part, but I know that I for one will not subscribe to gain access to these craft bags, specifically because I choose not to reward dishonest business practices. It will also likely be some time before I purchase any more crowns, as ZOS will have to regain my trust as a customer before I do so, and once my trust is lost, it is very difficult to earn back.
Calling this unethical, dishonest, shady, etc., has nothing to do with "disliking a price"; it has everything to do with going back on a promise; a promise that both methods of accessing content would be equally viable, and that no content available to one would be locked out from the other.
Please refrain from quoting me when I have not engaged you in conversation up to this point. Why you felt the need to quote my response to another posters question, directed specifically to me, is beyond reason. Why are you directing me to a lengthy post full of sensationalism and half truths that you wrote earlier, when at no point did I comment on said post or directly to you? Reading one page back is not too difficult for me, but it would seem reading to see which individuals have engaged you in discussion is.
You stated:
My response was an attempt to explain this reasoning, since as you stated, you did not understand it. I was attempting to be helpful by offering an explanation which might help your understanding. I did not expect you to agree with it, but thought you might at least come to respect the opposing viewpoint. And then you have the audacity to accuse me of half-truths? I suppose "respect" was too much to hope for.Callous2208 wrote: »I don't find it the least bit shady and can't for the life of me figure out why you and some others do.
And if you can't handle being quoted or being addressed, you should probably stop participating in this or other forums. The whole "don't talk to me unless I talk to you first" approach really doesn't work in an open forum discussion, sorry.
You sought to be helpful and perhaps garner some respect for your viewpoint by quoting my response to another poster and following it with a line like, "Since apparently reading one page back is too difficult for some people, I'll quote..." Interesting. I was being a bit facetious with those comments on quoting me anyhow. I'm surprised you had the audacity to think you would receive an iota of respect from me after posting your little jab and then re quoting your bloated statement full of half-truths and exaggerations.
Edited by Callous2208 on June 15, 2016 1:13AM0 -
Magenpie✭✭✭✭✭If a business becomes anti-consumer then they lose customers and cease to be a business. It kind of regulates itself *this applies to non essential businesses. Power, water, police services etc... Operate under different regulations because people can die*
Actually, this isn't true but it does vary depending on what country you live in. Europe tends to have more robust consumer protection law than the US, for example. In Europe, businesses *are* regulated and obliged to abide by laws which protect the consumer, and that includes things like unfair contract terms, misleading sales, consumer expectation, the right to end a contract or return an item if the terms of sale are changed unexpectedly - that kind of thing. In the UK, we have to right to return a product within 14 days if we don't like it. So, for example, Steam has to abide by that law for UK consumers, but US consumers don't have that right and have to live with their buying decisions.
I'm not an expert in any way about consumer law, mind you, but I'd be interested to know how the crafting bags, as a change of service - because it is one - might be viewed by a European consumer regulatory body, particularly as players were until recently encouraged to buy DLC outright as alternative to subbing, ,without being told that the equality of service was going to change. Very suddenly too. <= Actually realise the announcement was made before Christmas, sorry.
I'd also be interested to know where the various factions in this debate are from. I think it might have some bearing on how people feel about the whole thing.
It would be amusing if ZOS were eventually required to offer EU players the bags in the CS shop but not NA players. I wonder how opinion would divide then?
But hey, I'm just throwing some thoughts around. As I say, I'm no expert.Edited by Magenpie on June 15, 2016 1:31PM0 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Are people really so obtuse that they can't see that the only ethical lapse here is in assuming anyone who disagrees with you must be a bad person?"A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle2 -
wayfarerx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Blackbird71 wrote: »Blackbird71 wrote: »When launching Tamriel Unlimited, ZOS declared that no content or features would be wholly inaccessible to either pay method.
This is your false premise. What you've said here is Matt Firor fan fiction, it never really happened.
That one has been referenced, quoted, cited, and sourced numerous times over the course of several of these threads. If you think that is false, then you clearly live in denial of the facts, and there is no reasoning with you.
You are objectively wrong. As I stated before, the existence of the ESO+ research time perk completely invalidates this fantasy that subbing and not subbing have access to the same things, you cannot get it in the crown store and it has been a part of ESO+ since the launch of ESO:TU.
Why all this righteous indignation now, where were you to speak truth to power over the research perk? Why is the crafting bag so different?
Oh, it's something you actually want, so now it's time to hurl character assassinations at everyone who works at ZOS. GG.
Also, I've never seen a quote sourced from anyone at ZOS that guarantees absolute parity in features between subs and non-subs, probably because no such quote exists and because that has never, not for a single day, actually been the case.@wayfarerx - PC / North America / Aldmeri Dominion2 -
Vangy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Blackbird71 wrote: »Blackbird71 wrote: »When launching Tamriel Unlimited, ZOS declared that no content or features would be wholly inaccessible to either pay method.
This is your false premise. What you've said here is Matt Firor fan fiction, it never really happened.
That one has been referenced, quoted, cited, and sourced numerous times over the course of several of these threads. If you think that is false, then you clearly live in denial of the facts, and there is no reasoning with you.
You are objectively wrong. As I stated before, the existence of the ESO+ research time perk completely invalidates this fantasy that subbing and not subbing have access to the same things, you cannot get it in the crown store and it has been a part of ESO+ since the launch of ESO:TU.
Why all this righteous indignation now, where were you to speak truth to power over the research perk? Why is the crafting bag so different?
Oh, it's something you actually want, so now it's time to hurl character assassinations at everyone who works at ZOS. GG.
Also, I've never seen a quote sourced from anyone at ZOS that guarantees absolute parity in features between subs and non-subs, probably because no such quote exists and because that has never, not for a single day, actually been the case.
That's the thing man. They DONT CARE about the research times and bonus gold etc. So that, to them is a perk. They DO care about craft bags so suddenly, all logic goes out the window and they wah wah.
ESO+ has always offered things that subs do not have. Just because now it offers something you really want dosent change they way its been working. This is like the billionth thread about this. Some mod lock this crying please.Edited by Vangy on June 15, 2016 1:31AM(2)V16 Dk- stam dps/stam tank/mag dps
(2)V16 Sorc- mag dps/stam dps
(2)V16 nb- stam dps/mag dps
(1)v16 temp- mag tank/mag dps
CP: 610 and counting
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates! Viva la revolutionz4 -
Smileybones✭✭✭✭As a sub, the crafting bags finally give me the feeling that's I'm not subbing out of charity towards ZOS.
Also to people saying that ZOS should threat the 2 payment options as if they were being equal, I'm sorry but they are not equal at all:
Crown buyers have the comfort and the luxury to choose what part of the game they buy, what perks they get etc, subbers don't have this freedom. Subbers can't choose not to get any of the perks anymore when they don't need it and pay cheaper.0 -
Magenpie✭✭✭✭✭
That's the thing man. They DONT CARE about the research times and bonus gold etc. So that, to them is a perk. They DO care about craft bags so suddenly, all logic goes out the window and they wah wah.
ESO+ has always offered things that subs do not have. Just because now it offers something you really want dosent change they way its been working. This is like the billionth thread about this. Some mod lock this crying please.
Hey @Vangy
I think - given how long the 'Thank you for the Crafting Bags' thread was and how obviously pleased people were with them - accusing non-sub players concerns as 'crying' is a bit dismissive. It's obviously a feature that's made a big impact on people, and *you're* here debating the issue, so why the attitude? As for locking the thread, clearly people still feel strongly about it and want to express that. That's ok, isn't it?
This isn't particularly directed at you, but I really really don't understand the objection to letting non-sub players buy the bag from the CS. It doesn't affect anyone other than the person who's bag it is! So we were talking about Limited Edition stuff before yes? I get that - 'See my Big Expensive Cat Wot I Bought With ALL MY POTS of LOVELY MONEY THAT YOU DON'T HAVE.' Fine, I get it. It doesn't impress me, but I get it.
But a bag which just makes the day-to-day playing of the game a more pleasing experience? People really begrudge that?
I'd rather people enjoyed playing the game more, thus spending more time in the game, thus spending more money on the game in the future.
And really, some of the stuff being said here and elsewhere on the forums...it's just sad. Shameful and sad.Edited by Magenpie on June 15, 2016 1:58AM0 -
AmberLaTerra✭✭✭✭It is what us subs get for our sub, we needed a decent perk. Those 10% boosts are nothing in the big picture.
Trying to argue that "I spend money on DLC so should get the same perks as those who sub." is like trying to argue that because you bought a hat and jersey for your favorite sports team you should be given free front row seats to all the home games and not have to buy season tickets.
You want the seats buy the season ticket, you want the bag buy the sub end of story.PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
CP 365 Nord DK DPS EP
CP 365 Imperal DK Stam Tank EP
Level 9 Imperial Stam Templar EP
Cp 365 Khajiit Stam Blade EP
For the glory of the Pact1 -
Magenpie✭✭✭✭✭AmberLaTerra wrote: »It is what us subs get for our sub, we needed a decent perk. Those 10% boosts are nothing in the big picture.
Trying to argue that "I spend money on DLC so should get the same perks as those who sub." is like trying to argue that because you bought a hat and jersey for your favorite sports team you should be given free front row seats to all the home games and not have to buy season tickets.
You want the seats buy the season ticket, you want the bag buy the sub end of story.
I don't think people are asking for it as a 'perk' - they just want to buy the damn thing. What's the problem?0 -
Vangy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tarante11a wrote: »AmberLaTerra wrote: »It is what us subs get for our sub, we needed a decent perk. Those 10% boosts are nothing in the big picture.
Trying to argue that "I spend money on DLC so should get the same perks as those who sub." is like trying to argue that because you bought a hat and jersey for your favorite sports team you should be given free front row seats to all the home games and not have to buy season tickets.
You want the seats buy the season ticket, you want the bag buy the sub end of story.
I don't think people are asking for it as a 'perk' - they just want to buy the damn thing. What's the problem?
Considering 10 bag slots are worth 1k crowns.... how much do you think is a fair price for a bag with infinite slots? If you can come up with a number that dosent make subscription look like a joke.... Suggest it to ZOS and they might listen. For the year ahead though, id be VERY surprised if they budge on their sub only craft bag stance. Wont complain tho. If they make it available for a reasonable price, ill just go back to dropping sub and getting crowns from their sales and get my craft bag.
Everything said here has ALREADY been said and discussed and beaten to death with no end in sight. Hence my remark about locking threads like these. All OP had to do was type craft bags into search box and posted there.....Edited by Vangy on June 15, 2016 2:22AM(2)V16 Dk- stam dps/stam tank/mag dps
(2)V16 Sorc- mag dps/stam dps
(2)V16 nb- stam dps/mag dps
(1)v16 temp- mag tank/mag dps
CP: 610 and counting
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates! Viva la revolutionz0 -
rotaugen454✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tarante11a wrote: »AmberLaTerra wrote: »It is what us subs get for our sub, we needed a decent perk. Those 10% boosts are nothing in the big picture.
Trying to argue that "I spend money on DLC so should get the same perks as those who sub." is like trying to argue that because you bought a hat and jersey for your favorite sports team you should be given free front row seats to all the home games and not have to buy season tickets.
You want the seats buy the season ticket, you want the bag buy the sub end of story.
I don't think people are asking for it as a 'perk' - they just want to buy the damn thing. What's the problem?
No problem, I'll just cancel my sub, like a lot of other subs would. ZOS knows that, and will factor it into their analysis."Get off my lawn!"4