Cyrodiil unskilled : Melee DKs vs Radiant Destruction

Armitas · June 2016

EnOeZ wrote: »

34K Radiant Destruction ?
Sure !

http://imgur.com/qNQV4ip

34K in one single cast of Radiant Destruction !!!
It's like what 3 Ballistas shots ?

Spammable every 2.8sec

From 28m+ up to 48m (thx @Alcast )

Outside of retaliation range of meleers

Cannot be defended by roll dodge, line of sight or reflect

Counters block like Anti-cavalry caltrops (a 7K+ stamina ability) does to riders (thx @Bashev )

Over 12K DPs !

...with supposed Battle Spirit (reducing damage by 50% I remind you)

And it's not even an ultimate !

Come on !

The sad thing about that picture was that it wasn't even an empowered Radiant Destruction through degeneration + Might of the guild. Though it did have minor force added to it I guess.

Armitas · June 2016

syko809 wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

the meta

I'm sure you can post just as many screenshots where it's all snipes..

Soooooooo is no one going to complain about snipe spam because it goes hand and hand with this post or what you dont want your op skill nerf lmao

This thread is specifically about DK vs Radiant Destruction. DK's can reflect snipes. Snipe actually has risk with it's reward when it comes to shooting a DK.

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

It's completely defendable. Block, LOS, Purge, etc. and 34k is 11k dps, which is actually quite low.

Sure, that is low if you compare it to someones wombo-combo from stealth, but it's pretty high for literally mashing 1 button 1 time outside of range of any retaliation or threat. Block and Purge don't stop the next one and the next one and the next one. You are also not going to catch up to gap closer range from 48 meters away by slow walking with block. LOS is completely situational and quite unreliable, which in all likely hood will require several dodge rolls through roots killing any stam for a magicka build which leads to a hard CC death(if 1vx).

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

If you want to play straight close range, you'd better have a healer with you or just accept you're going to take range deaths.

Look at the damagers in the DK class. They are all melee. Why do we have to be the only special snowflake class that requires a healer to be viable if we want to play our actual class rather than a generic weapon build?

DocFrost72 · June 2016

Armitas wrote: »

syko809 wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

the meta

I'm sure you can post just as many screenshots where it's all snipes..

Soooooooo is no one going to complain about snipe spam because it goes hand and hand with this post or what you dont want your op skill nerf lmao

This thread is specifically about DK vs Radiant Destruction. DK's can reflect snipes. Snipe actually has risk with it's reward when it comes to shooting a DK.

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

It's completely defendable. Block, LOS, Purge, etc. and 34k is 11k dps, which is actually quite low.

Sure, that is low if you compare it to someones wombo-combo from stealth, but it's pretty high for literally mashing 1 button 1 time outside of range of any retaliation or threat. Block and Purge don't stop the next one and the next one and the next one. You are also not going to catch up to gap closer range from 48 meters away by slow walking with block. LOS is completely situational and quite unreliable, which in all likely hood will require several dodge rolls through roots killing any stam for a magicka build which leads to a hard CC death(if 1vx).

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

If you want to play straight close range, you'd better have a healer with you or just accept you're going to take range deaths.

Look at the damagers in the DK class. They are all melee. Why do we have to be the only special snowflake class that requires a healer to be viable if we want to play our actual class rather than a generic weapon build?

Sorry, but stamina builds have very little in the way of range. What does a stam sorc get in range? (Or at all lolz). How about ranged nightblades? Oh, a gap closer and one skill that requires you to chain 4 light attacks (impossible if you're always at range)

Stam needs bow if it wants to do range, or at least dual wield. That is not a DK tbing, that is a stam thing.

It is worth noting DKs have a gap closer/melee heavy setup, but so do all other stam classes. Maybe, just maybe, you can slot a bow if you want ranged stamina attacks?

Armitas · June 2016

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

syko809 wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

the meta

I'm sure you can post just as many screenshots where it's all snipes..

Soooooooo is no one going to complain about snipe spam because it goes hand and hand with this post or what you dont want your op skill nerf lmao

This thread is specifically about DK vs Radiant Destruction. DK's can reflect snipes. Snipe actually has risk with it's reward when it comes to shooting a DK.

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

It's completely defendable. Block, LOS, Purge, etc. and 34k is 11k dps, which is actually quite low.

Sure, that is low if you compare it to someones wombo-combo from stealth, but it's pretty high for literally mashing 1 button 1 time outside of range of any retaliation or threat. Block and Purge don't stop the next one and the next one and the next one. You are also not going to catch up to gap closer range from 48 meters away by slow walking with block. LOS is completely situational and quite unreliable, which in all likely hood will require several dodge rolls through roots killing any stam for a magicka build which leads to a hard CC death(if 1vx).

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

If you want to play straight close range, you'd better have a healer with you or just accept you're going to take range deaths.

Look at the damagers in the DK class. They are all melee. Why do we have to be the only special snowflake class that requires a healer to be viable if we want to play our actual class rather than a generic weapon build?

Sorry, but stamina builds have very little in the way of range. What does a stam sorc get in range? (Or at all lolz). How about ranged nightblades? Oh, a gap closer and one skill that requires you to chain 4 light attacks (impossible if you're always at range)

Stam needs bow if it wants to do range, or at least dual wield. That is not a DK tbing, that is a stam thing.

It is worth noting DKs have a gap closer/melee heavy setup, but so do all other stam classes. Maybe, just maybe, you can slot a bow if you want ranged stamina attacks?

I didn't catch the point you were trying to make in regards to Radiant Destruction.

But as far as mDK vs stam in regards to survival without a healer against multiple enemies at melee range it is far easier to create a gap or close it due to increased movement speed sometimes with expedition, the ability to dodge damage and CC with shuffle, snare immunity, root immunity or the dodge rolls to ignore them and a working? gap closer. In addition to that you have vigor which is far better than Dragons blood and isn't bound to a weapon like reso heals are.

Just look at PvP right now. How easy is it for any stam build to survive and kill by rolling around trees popping large vigors and nuking at 6k weapon power? mDK to any stam is not even close to comparison.

SwaminoNowlino · June 2016

@EnOeZ
@DocFrost72 is actually on to something there, you could just build a huge wall between you and the RD user!

Also, I am a genie. It's confirmed, 100%, that I am all powerful. Everything everyone says on the Internet is always completely true, it has to be.

SwaminoNowlino · June 2016

@Armitas my Stam temp can't reflect, and generally has to sit and eat snipes. You can reflect them. Classes are different. I use major mending and purify to deal with things, DKs have access to some of the best damage mitigation abilities in terms of buffs (ignoring sorc shields of course). Stam Sorcs have mobility to get out of dodge. Nightblades have cloak. There are differences amongst the classes that force you to pick and choose what you can counter and how you go about it. I mean I could argue for snipes to be nerfed because I can't reflect them using that same argument.

The 34k dps is also only for execute range, so there are plenty of heavy hitting damage abilities that do more. RD is indisputably easy mode, but it also generally serves to highlight for me who amongst my opponents is the worst player and should be targeted first.

Not gonna argue with you about Magicka DK. That class is woefully anemic in terms of PVP. They should make a form of reflective scales that gives you major or minor expedition. Then Templars would be the only class without access to it, but at least their self heal is usable.

houjo2000b16_ESO · June 2016

I am a great player- now listen to me talk about how I cannot possibly beat this one ability and ignore everyone else saying how it is not a problem to handle.

Yours truly,
-OP

Cronopoly · June 2016

Bashev quoted

The main issue is the mechanic of the skill. Too noob friendly. The range should be reduced to 15m.

If Radiant Destruction gets gutted DK's should lose a class ability, pick one...like the entire Take Flight Ult etc...It's called Karma.

Stam DK's as a whole are steamrolling PVP by being a completely "Fixed class" though some don't like the poison (lore) out of nowhere focus.

Templars need to be the paper situationally to your rock. And the Damn

MagBlades/Stamblades have their place as well.

Perfect triumvirate.

Sorcs you say....
Only those in Best In Slot gear and Max CP are competitive when skilled and there are skilled Sorcs but not Alot. All others seem to be free CP now.

Burning_Talons · June 2016

Docmandu wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

the meta

I'm sure you can post just as many screenshots where it's all snipes..

Snipes are reflectable and dodgeable

mistermutiny89 · June 2016

Burning_Talons wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

the meta

I'm sure you can post just as many screenshots where it's all snipes..

Snipes are reflectable and dodgeable

Just as RD is interruptable.

There's a skill for that in the arrow skill line for ranged interrupts.

d3nbark3r · June 2016

I'm guessing by "Melee DK" you mean any combo of sword+shield/duelwield/2h?

I do feel your pain.... but this exact ability is why I feel a bow is compulsory right now.... venom arrow is win.

danno8 · June 2016

Armitas wrote: »

EnOeZ wrote: »

34K Radiant Destruction ?
Sure !

http://imgur.com/qNQV4ip

34K in one single cast of Radiant Destruction !!!
It's like what 3 Ballistas shots ?

Spammable every 2.8sec

From 28m+ up to 48m (thx @Alcast )

Outside of retaliation range of meleers

Cannot be defended by roll dodge, line of sight or reflect

Counters block like Anti-cavalry caltrops (a 7K+ stamina ability) does to riders (thx @Bashev )

Over 12K DPs !

...with supposed Battle Spirit (reducing damage by 50% I remind you)

And it's not even an ultimate !

Come on !

The sad thing about that picture was that it wasn't even an empowered Radiant Destruction through degeneration + Might of the guild. Though it did have minor force added to it I guess.

You can't empower RD. It is a DoT.

EnOeZ · June 2016

houjo2000b16_ESO wrote: »

I am a great player- now listen to me talk about how I cannot possibly beat this one ability and ignore everyone else saying how it is not a problem to handle.

Yours truly,
-OP

Are you a melee DK ?
Are you good enough to be play sola and jump on groups (a 1vXer) ?

...or are you an easy mode 28m+ Jesus Beamer that cannot be retaliated at ?
Undersand the interested of your "very argumented" (cough cough...) answer will greatly vary.

EnOeZ · June 2016

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

syko809 wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

the meta

I'm sure you can post just as many screenshots where it's all snipes..

Soooooooo is no one going to complain about snipe spam because it goes hand and hand with this post or what you dont want your op skill nerf lmao

This thread is specifically about DK vs Radiant Destruction. DK's can reflect snipes. Snipe actually has risk with it's reward when it comes to shooting a DK.

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

It's completely defendable. Block, LOS, Purge, etc. and 34k is 11k dps, which is actually quite low.

Sure, that is low if you compare it to someones wombo-combo from stealth, but it's pretty high for literally mashing 1 button 1 time outside of range of any retaliation or threat. Block and Purge don't stop the next one and the next one and the next one. You are also not going to catch up to gap closer range from 48 meters away by slow walking with block. LOS is completely situational and quite unreliable, which in all likely hood will require several dodge rolls through roots killing any stam for a magicka build which leads to a hard CC death(if 1vx).

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

If you want to play straight close range, you'd better have a healer with you or just accept you're going to take range deaths.

Look at the damagers in the DK class. They are all melee. Why do we have to be the only special snowflake class that requires a healer to be viable if we want to play our actual class rather than a generic weapon build?

Sorry, but stamina builds have very little in the way of range. What does a stam sorc get in range? (Or at all lolz). How about ranged nightblades? Oh, a gap closer and one skill that requires you to chain 4 light attacks (impossible if you're always at range)

Stam needs bow if it wants to do range, or at least dual wield. That is not a DK tbing, that is a stam thing.

It is worth noting DKs have a gap closer/melee heavy setup, but so do all other stam classes. Maybe, just maybe, you can slot a bow if you want ranged stamina attacks?

Stams and Nightblades, even melee are not bothered to the same extent thanks to much greater mobility (bolt) or invisibility (cloak). They still have a working defense. DKs (apart from use a bow as melee...) don't.

EnOeZ · June 2016

Thank you to all inviting me to use a bow, but please understand that replying to:

"How do I defend from or defeat RD from out of retaliation range as melee DK !" by
"Don't be a melee DK !"

is a little... off-topic.

DocFrost72 · June 2016

EnOeZ wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

syko809 wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

the meta

I'm sure you can post just as many screenshots where it's all snipes..

Soooooooo is no one going to complain about snipe spam because it goes hand and hand with this post or what you dont want your op skill nerf lmao

This thread is specifically about DK vs Radiant Destruction. DK's can reflect snipes. Snipe actually has risk with it's reward when it comes to shooting a DK.

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

It's completely defendable. Block, LOS, Purge, etc. and 34k is 11k dps, which is actually quite low.

Sure, that is low if you compare it to someones wombo-combo from stealth, but it's pretty high for literally mashing 1 button 1 time outside of range of any retaliation or threat. Block and Purge don't stop the next one and the next one and the next one. You are also not going to catch up to gap closer range from 48 meters away by slow walking with block. LOS is completely situational and quite unreliable, which in all likely hood will require several dodge rolls through roots killing any stam for a magicka build which leads to a hard CC death(if 1vx).

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

If you want to play straight close range, you'd better have a healer with you or just accept you're going to take range deaths.

Look at the damagers in the DK class. They are all melee. Why do we have to be the only special snowflake class that requires a healer to be viable if we want to play our actual class rather than a generic weapon build?

Sorry, but stamina builds have very little in the way of range. What does a stam sorc get in range? (Or at all lolz). How about ranged nightblades? Oh, a gap closer and one skill that requires you to chain 4 light attacks (impossible if you're always at range)

Stam needs bow if it wants to do range, or at least dual wield. That is not a DK tbing, that is a stam thing.

It is worth noting DKs have a gap closer/melee heavy setup, but so do all other stam classes. Maybe, just maybe, you can slot a bow if you want ranged stamina attacks?

Stams and Nightblades, even melee are not bothered to the same extent thanks to much greater mobility (bolt) or invisibility (cloak). They still have a working defense. DKs (apart from use a bow as melee...) don't.

Not every class will have a defense to every situation. Try caltrops on a nightblade, they will cry. Try running immovable on stam sorcs who streak often. They die. Try running venom arrow, or literally any suggested defenses (strong heals, wards to eliminate crit, gap closers). DKS have literally the best toolkit for survival, with an ability that makes you range attack inpervious, a damaging physical ultimate that gives you a dmg soak, or how about literal invincibility in the form of corrosive armor? And that healing taken buff while you have coag blood on, and any ultimate giving you resources and health back.

Dude, I get it, you wanna win easymode against RD spammers. If this is NOT true, and you want "fun counterplay", try doing something in cyro.

EnOeZ · June 2016

Either DKs need

a modification to some passive to account for current RD design or
an increase in range of fossilize
a dramatic increase in movement speed of stone fist (/Take Flight)
a modification of scales (to treat RD as a projectile)

Or RD needs to get one of the following, to include some element of skill to an ability that even Templars recognize as Easy Mode:

Range reduced to 8/15/22 m
Below 8m : ticks 30% faster
8-15m : current version (but dodgeable)
15-22m : ticks 30% slower
22m+ ticks 60% slower

That way, damage is somehow kept, and skill is suddenly part of the ability with a risk/reward mechanism.
You got the idea.

Concerning dodge defense, I understand (as Templar) evading your channel through dodge is annoying, but it is exactly what 90% of damaging abilities in the game have to face too. RD not having that difficulty on top of all the goodies it packs is overkill.

It's a game, abilities need to be fun to cast and to defend. For now it is not the case: cast is brainless and too safe, defense is just impossible for melee DKs (outside of 1V1/close range combat which are both "rare" in Current Cyrodiil Meta).

Radiant Destruction has been designed WITHOUT Cyrodiil Meta in mind (or melee DKs specifics) and without a skill factor.

...Or it has been designed to melt PVP Tanks and Front fighters (which, yes, could be a design choice). But the obvious result would be what we are seeing in the thread : Go range ! Making the game even more range-friendly and turning inclined melee players into "use a bow" rangers... or leavers.

Shaping even more Cyrodiil into a Frontline-less game of Pew-pewers with only "meleers" left being skirmiskers and rogues (assassination nightblades with cloak).

Yes, this thread is a niche fight:
Sorcerers have bolt escape and very powerfull spammable bubbles preventing damage (easier time staying above 50% life)
Nightblades have cloak to still evade the ability
Templars... well it's their class ability
Range DKs... have range (being less targeted, have access to a bow if they want)

So of course, this won't find the same support as others balance/redesign request. Like any "minority fight" It's not because it's a minority fight it is not legit and will ultimately serve all.

I fought two years for heavy armor PVP on this forum (apart from Bracing loss and demultiplication effects like pots and buffs it is close to balance now) I have experience. Hope ZOS gained some reactivity.

Thanks to the supporters of this thread btw !

Justice31st · June 2016

EnOeZ wrote: »

I will define skill in a game by the virtuous symphony of plays and counterplays.
Ultimately, at the highest level of skill, there is only mind game and ability execution speed left.

For many top PVPers, of course game balance is necessary to accomplish highest levels of skills and therefore of pleasure in a game.
To date game balance aka "Combat and character mechanics" is the underdog department of the Elder Scrolls Online despite excellent basics (block mechanic, dodge, soft targeting, sprint, crouch for example).

Threre comes the Melee DK in a XvX or 1vX, let's assume he is quite skilled...
He uses Line of Sight to get rid of rangers and sorcs, uses terrain, heal when he as room, charge, stun, control, dodge roll, root, tank... he pops scales when out of stamina, times his bursts, uses everything he can to reposition himself while dynamically re-evaluating the situation: he slows or root an annoying opponent and charge another, etc... Well he tries to out-play 1 to 3+ players ALL THE TIME in Cyrodiil, since he is melee and gets all the heat each time.

No the skilled player does not play in Zergs since Zergs does not use skill: no skill=no pleasure for him.

And there comes the Cyrodiil Templar !
His skill ? Only one, made of the push of a single button: the "Jesus Beam" Radiant Destruction!
Features?

Max range execute! MAX RANGE!
Super Mega Safe at 28m and beyond!

Ultimate-like damage!

Spammable!

From 50% on (50% !!)

Does not break on dodge! => easy mode

Does not stop with Line of Sight! => easy mode

Does not care about roots and slows => easy mode

Standard cost!

Let's compare it to the DK execute...
Oh well, since there is no execute for DK, let's use reverse slash and morphs:
Melee Range

Super Unsafe (need to be in the heat) => high risk, high reward => skill

Vulnerable to dodge => counterplay = > skill

Vulnerable to Line of Sight => counterplay = > skill

Vulnerable to roots and slows => skill

Balanced ?

Back to Cyrodiil...
Then the skilled DKs is despite the odds holding his ground and comes the Templar.
WITHOUT ANY CONSIDERATION about the DK"s Health, insta Jesus Beam from 28m away or more...
Stupid move? It should, but not with the current design. As a consequence the DK is playing effectively with 50% of his health!
A 30K Health DK becomes a 15K Health one since dropping below that threshold means death with the beam on. Why ?
No insta-heal available (Dragon Blood is still inefficient in Cyrodiil despite tens of threads, it is an abandonned ability for now)

Vigor is nice but is not instant, same for Rally and morphs (despite the final heal which is not spammable, contrary to Radiant Destruction)

No insta CC, despite Fossilize only 15 meters (vs 28 meters Jesus Beam)

No insta CC either despite Stonefist because the projectile is too slow

Grip is as unrialable as always.

2H charge does not stun (two GCD+travel time is too slow)

Invasion form SB could work (if not rooted in melee range (...) but there is still travel time)

Inhale could work but only 8m vs 28+

=> Radiant Destruction has no realistic counter-play for Melee DKs in Cyrodiil.

What do we need ?

On Templar side:
Much higher cost of Radiant Destruction, increasing with recasts

Needs to break with Line of Sight

Needs to break with Dodge

Reduce range (8m ideally, 15m to be fossilize-able, 22m to be Invasion-able to the very minimum)

Considered a projectile (reflectable) => counterplay = skill= pleasure

On DK side:
2H Charge needs to free from roots

Take Flight needs to free from roots (only ultimate that is counterable that way (and by lag))

Stone Fist needs to travel faster

Replace "Elder Dragon" (close to useless) by a defensive feature like resistance to executes (similar to Vampire undeath) and or channels.

On mechanics side
Channels need to insta break with Line of Sight and dodge rolls => plays and counter plays => skill = > pleasure

Otherwise I do agree Templars, apart from that skill, are far from being as terrifying as OP Nightblades (Outstanding burst, ultra superior mobility, survivability and sustain, best passives in game and synergies, best DLCs with 3 out of 4 favoring them, new skill lines fitting the playstyle, many one "ability wonders" that pack everything with outstanding damage, excellent ultimate generation mechanics, Premium ultimates), but that is another story...

Of course, in 1v1 RD is manageable but I believe the Strength of Radiant Destruction overshadows the weakness of the class in mass PVP and that where it can be casted with absolutely no skill for max results (thats why so many do it) and it will be virtuous for the game and the class to redesign it.

Radiant Destruction does barely any damage at high health. [snip]

[edited for flame]

EnOeZ · June 2016

DocFrost72 wrote: »

EnOeZ wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

syko809 wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

the meta

I'm sure you can post just as many screenshots where it's all snipes..

Soooooooo is no one going to complain about snipe spam because it goes hand and hand with this post or what you dont want your op skill nerf lmao

This thread is specifically about DK vs Radiant Destruction. DK's can reflect snipes. Snipe actually has risk with it's reward when it comes to shooting a DK.

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

It's completely defendable. Block, LOS, Purge, etc. and 34k is 11k dps, which is actually quite low.

Sure, that is low if you compare it to someones wombo-combo from stealth, but it's pretty high for literally mashing 1 button 1 time outside of range of any retaliation or threat. Block and Purge don't stop the next one and the next one and the next one. You are also not going to catch up to gap closer range from 48 meters away by slow walking with block. LOS is completely situational and quite unreliable, which in all likely hood will require several dodge rolls through roots killing any stam for a magicka build which leads to a hard CC death(if 1vx).

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

If you want to play straight close range, you'd better have a healer with you or just accept you're going to take range deaths.

Look at the damagers in the DK class. They are all melee. Why do we have to be the only special snowflake class that requires a healer to be viable if we want to play our actual class rather than a generic weapon build?

Sorry, but stamina builds have very little in the way of range. What does a stam sorc get in range? (Or at all lolz). How about ranged nightblades? Oh, a gap closer and one skill that requires you to chain 4 light attacks (impossible if you're always at range)

Stam needs bow if it wants to do range, or at least dual wield. That is not a DK tbing, that is a stam thing.

It is worth noting DKs have a gap closer/melee heavy setup, but so do all other stam classes. Maybe, just maybe, you can slot a bow if you want ranged stamina attacks?

Stams and Nightblades, even melee are not bothered to the same extent thanks to much greater mobility (bolt) or invisibility (cloak). They still have a working defense. DKs (apart from use a bow as melee...) don't.

Not every class will have a defense to every situation. Try caltrops on a nightblade, they will cry. Try running immovable on stam sorcs who streak often. They die. Try running venom arrow, or literally any suggested defenses (strong heals, wards to eliminate crit, gap closers). DKS have literally the best toolkit for survival, with an ability that makes you range attack inpervious, a damaging physical ultimate that gives you a dmg soak, or how about literal invincibility in the form of corrosive armor? And that healing taken buff while you have coag blood on, and any ultimate giving you resources and health back.

Dude, I get it, you wanna win easymode against RD spammers. If this is NOT true, and you want "fun counterplay", try doing something in cyro.

I wish I could learn something for you @DocFrost72 , but that won't happen soon apparently...

I quote you: "DKS have literally the best toolkit for survival"
=> No

DKs have an excellent toolkit for durabilty, soaking damage, yes (except from RD)
Survivability, the fact of staying alive is much more a Nighblade or Sorcerer thing.

DKs cannot escape a fight they are loosing.
Sorcs and Nighblades can and do all the time.
Best toolkit for survivability goes to one of those two.

"Survivability is the ability to remain alive or continue to exist."

Wanna teach me something else ? (...)

Sharee · June 2016

RD should be an execute, not an universal damaging ability that also doubles as an execute. Just like other executes, casting it on a full health enemy should be a bad idea.

Currently, it is not, because as mentioned in the OP, casting this on a full health enemy effectively cuts his hitpoints in half (since as soon as he loses the first half, he explodes). Thus, everyone spams this 24/7 regardless of target's health. Say what you want, but for an execute, that's just wrong.

At the very least, the damage of the whole RD channel needs to be based on the health of the target at the point when it was cast(so casting on an enemy above 50% health will always result in low damage, regardless of whether his health drops below 50% during the channel or not).

Justice31st · June 2016

Sharee wrote: »

RD should be an execute, not an universal damaging ability that also doubles as an execute. Just like other executes, casting it on a full health enemy should be a bad idea.

Currently, it is not, because as mentioned in the OP, casting this on a full health enemy effectively cuts his hitpoints in half (since as soon as he loses the first half, he explodes). Thus, everyone spams this 24/7 regardless of target's health. Say what you want, but for an execute, that's just wrong.

Lol the only people who would spam Radiant Destruction at full health are noobs. Quit lying about the damage.

Justice31st · June 2016

EnOeZ wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

EnOeZ wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

syko809 wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

the meta

I'm sure you can post just as many screenshots where it's all snipes..

Soooooooo is no one going to complain about snipe spam because it goes hand and hand with this post or what you dont want your op skill nerf lmao

This thread is specifically about DK vs Radiant Destruction. DK's can reflect snipes. Snipe actually has risk with it's reward when it comes to shooting a DK.

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

It's completely defendable. Block, LOS, Purge, etc. and 34k is 11k dps, which is actually quite low.

Sure, that is low if you compare it to someones wombo-combo from stealth, but it's pretty high for literally mashing 1 button 1 time outside of range of any retaliation or threat. Block and Purge don't stop the next one and the next one and the next one. You are also not going to catch up to gap closer range from 48 meters away by slow walking with block. LOS is completely situational and quite unreliable, which in all likely hood will require several dodge rolls through roots killing any stam for a magicka build which leads to a hard CC death(if 1vx).

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

If you want to play straight close range, you'd better have a healer with you or just accept you're going to take range deaths.

Look at the damagers in the DK class. They are all melee. Why do we have to be the only special snowflake class that requires a healer to be viable if we want to play our actual class rather than a generic weapon build?

Sorry, but stamina builds have very little in the way of range. What does a stam sorc get in range? (Or at all lolz). How about ranged nightblades? Oh, a gap closer and one skill that requires you to chain 4 light attacks (impossible if you're always at range)

Stam needs bow if it wants to do range, or at least dual wield. That is not a DK tbing, that is a stam thing.

It is worth noting DKs have a gap closer/melee heavy setup, but so do all other stam classes. Maybe, just maybe, you can slot a bow if you want ranged stamina attacks?

Stams and Nightblades, even melee are not bothered to the same extent thanks to much greater mobility (bolt) or invisibility (cloak). They still have a working defense. DKs (apart from use a bow as melee...) don't.

Not every class will have a defense to every situation. Try caltrops on a nightblade, they will cry. Try running immovable on stam sorcs who streak often. They die. Try running venom arrow, or literally any suggested defenses (strong heals, wards to eliminate crit, gap closers). DKS have literally the best toolkit for survival, with an ability that makes you range attack inpervious, a damaging physical ultimate that gives you a dmg soak, or how about literal invincibility in the form of corrosive armor? And that healing taken buff while you have coag blood on, and any ultimate giving you resources and health back.

Dude, I get it, you wanna win easymode against RD spammers. If this is NOT true, and you want "fun counterplay", try doing something in cyro.

I wish I could learn something for you, but that won't happen soon apparently...

I quote you: "DKS have literally the best toolkit for survival"
No

DKs have an excellent toolkit for durabilty, soaking damage, yes (except from RD)
Survivability, the fact of staying alive is much more a Nighblade or Sorcerer thing.

DK cannot escape a fight they are loosing.
Sorcs and Nighblades can and do all the time.
Best toolkit for survivability goes to one of those two.

"Survivability is the ability to remain alive or continue to exist."

Wanna teach me something else ? (...)

I bet you are one of those annoying vigor spamming dodge rollers, who wants your evasion to be even more OP. Better yet, you probably spam dodge roll, wrecking blow, and snipe.

Sharee · June 2016

Justice31st wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

RD should be an execute, not an universal damaging ability that also doubles as an execute. Just like other executes, casting it on a full health enemy should be a bad idea.

Currently, it is not, because as mentioned in the OP, casting this on a full health enemy effectively cuts his hitpoints in half (since as soon as he loses the first half, he explodes). Thus, everyone spams this 24/7 regardless of target's health. Say what you want, but for an execute, that's just wrong.

Lol the only people who would spam Radiant Destruction at full health are noobs. Quit lying about the damage.

The people who would spam RD at full health enemies are the people who understand game mechanics. They know that while their beam does low damage while the target is above 50% health, they will instantly start doing insane damage as soon as the target drops below 50%, thus effectively removing half of the target's HP bar just by keeping the beam on them.

You have 30K HP. But if you have that beam on you, you only effectively have 15K HP, because as soon as you lose the first half of your HP bar, you instantly explode. Clear enough?

Justice31st · June 2016

Sharee wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

RD should be an execute, not an universal damaging ability that also doubles as an execute. Just like other executes, casting it on a full health enemy should be a bad idea.

Currently, it is not, because as mentioned in the OP, casting this on a full health enemy effectively cuts his hitpoints in half (since as soon as he loses the first half, he explodes). Thus, everyone spams this 24/7 regardless of target's health. Say what you want, but for an execute, that's just wrong.

Lol the only people who would spam Radiant Destruction at full health are noobs. Quit lying about the damage.

The people who would spam RD at full health enemies are the people who understand game mechanics. They know that while their beam does low damage while the target is above 50% health, they will instantly start doing insane damage as soon as the target drops below 50%, thus effectively removing half of the target's HP bar just by keeping the beam on them.

You have 30K HP. But if you have that beam on you, you only effectively have 15K HP, because as soon as you lose the first half of your HP bar, you instantly explode. Clear enough?

Being locked into a channeled ability that does no damage from 100% to under 50% while taking damage from enemy attacks? ROFL? Again quit lying.

Justice31st · June 2016

Sharee wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

RD should be an execute, not an universal damaging ability that also doubles as an execute. Just like other executes, casting it on a full health enemy should be a bad idea.

Currently, it is not, because as mentioned in the OP, casting this on a full health enemy effectively cuts his hitpoints in half (since as soon as he loses the first half, he explodes). Thus, everyone spams this 24/7 regardless of target's health. Say what you want, but for an execute, that's just wrong.

Lol the only people who would spam Radiant Destruction at full health are noobs. Quit lying about the damage.

The people who would spam RD at full health enemies are the people who understand game mechanics. They know that while their beam does low damage while the target is above 50% health, they will instantly start doing insane damage as soon as the target drops below 50%, thus effectively removing half of the target's HP bar just by keeping the beam on them.

You have 30K HP. But if you have that beam on you, you only effectively have 15K HP, because as soon as you lose the first half of your HP bar, you instantly explode. Clear enough?

The time it would take you get an enemy of the same level down to half from 100% doing almost 0 damage using Radiant Destruction execute and being locked into this one ability, not being able to heal. You would be dead before you executed your opponent, again quit lying.

Sharee · June 2016

Justice31st wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Justice31st wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

RD should be an execute, not an universal damaging ability that also doubles as an execute. Just like other executes, casting it on a full health enemy should be a bad idea.

Currently, it is not, because as mentioned in the OP, casting this on a full health enemy effectively cuts his hitpoints in half (since as soon as he loses the first half, he explodes). Thus, everyone spams this 24/7 regardless of target's health. Say what you want, but for an execute, that's just wrong.

Lol the only people who would spam Radiant Destruction at full health are noobs. Quit lying about the damage.

The people who would spam RD at full health enemies are the people who understand game mechanics. They know that while their beam does low damage while the target is above 50% health, they will instantly start doing insane damage as soon as the target drops below 50%, thus effectively removing half of the target's HP bar just by keeping the beam on them.

You have 30K HP. But if you have that beam on you, you only effectively have 15K HP, because as soon as you lose the first half of your HP bar, you instantly explode. Clear enough?

Being locked into a channeled ability that does no damage from 100% to under 50% while taking damage from enemy attacks? ROFL? Again quit lying.

Being locked into effectively removing half of your targets HP just by keeping a beam on them isn't something you would do while taking damage from enemy attack, obviously. It is something you would do while standing safely 28-40m away from the target, preferably from behind a bunch of teammates.

And please cut the 'lying' crap. There isn't a single word in the post you quoted that wasn't true.

Justice31st wrote: »

The time it would take you get an enemy of the same level down to half from 100% doing almost 0 damage using Radiant Destruction execute and being locked into this one ability, not being able to heal. You would be dead before you executed your opponent

In case you haven't noticed, i am not talking about 1v1. You do not put the beam on someone to remove all their health just by using the beam, you put it to cut their HP in half so that your buddies only have to remove 50% of enemy HP to kill him. Please stop using straw man arguments.

EnOeZ · June 2016

Justice31st wrote: »

EnOeZ wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

EnOeZ wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

syko809 wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

the meta

I'm sure you can post just as many screenshots where it's all snipes..

Soooooooo is no one going to complain about snipe spam because it goes hand and hand with this post or what you dont want your op skill nerf lmao

This thread is specifically about DK vs Radiant Destruction. DK's can reflect snipes. Snipe actually has risk with it's reward when it comes to shooting a DK.

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

It's completely defendable. Block, LOS, Purge, etc. and 34k is 11k dps, which is actually quite low.

Sure, that is low if you compare it to someones wombo-combo from stealth, but it's pretty high for literally mashing 1 button 1 time outside of range of any retaliation or threat. Block and Purge don't stop the next one and the next one and the next one. You are also not going to catch up to gap closer range from 48 meters away by slow walking with block. LOS is completely situational and quite unreliable, which in all likely hood will require several dodge rolls through roots killing any stam for a magicka build which leads to a hard CC death(if 1vx).

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

If you want to play straight close range, you'd better have a healer with you or just accept you're going to take range deaths.

Look at the damagers in the DK class. They are all melee. Why do we have to be the only special snowflake class that requires a healer to be viable if we want to play our actual class rather than a generic weapon build?

Sorry, but stamina builds have very little in the way of range. What does a stam sorc get in range? (Or at all lolz). How about ranged nightblades? Oh, a gap closer and one skill that requires you to chain 4 light attacks (impossible if you're always at range)

Stam needs bow if it wants to do range, or at least dual wield. That is not a DK tbing, that is a stam thing.

It is worth noting DKs have a gap closer/melee heavy setup, but so do all other stam classes. Maybe, just maybe, you can slot a bow if you want ranged stamina attacks?

Stams and Nightblades, even melee are not bothered to the same extent thanks to much greater mobility (bolt) or invisibility (cloak). They still have a working defense. DKs (apart from use a bow as melee...) don't.

Not every class will have a defense to every situation. Try caltrops on a nightblade, they will cry. Try running immovable on stam sorcs who streak often. They die. Try running venom arrow, or literally any suggested defenses (strong heals, wards to eliminate crit, gap closers). DKS have literally the best toolkit for survival, with an ability that makes you range attack inpervious, a damaging physical ultimate that gives you a dmg soak, or how about literal invincibility in the form of corrosive armor? And that healing taken buff while you have coag blood on, and any ultimate giving you resources and health back.

Dude, I get it, you wanna win easymode against RD spammers. If this is NOT true, and you want "fun counterplay", try doing something in cyro.

I wish I could learn something for you, but that won't happen soon apparently...

I quote you: "DKS have literally the best toolkit for survival"
No

DKs have an excellent toolkit for durabilty, soaking damage, yes (except from RD)
Survivability, the fact of staying alive is much more a Nighblade or Sorcerer thing.

DK cannot escape a fight they are loosing.
Sorcs and Nighblades can and do all the time.
Best toolkit for survivability goes to one of those two.

"Survivability is the ability to remain alive or continue to exist."

Wanna teach me something else ? (...)

I bet you are one of those annoying vigor spamming dodge rollers, who wants your evasion to be even more OP. Better yet, you probably spam dodge roll, wrecking blow, and snipe.

Let's see:

I wear 7/7 Heavy to maximize my Black Rose set.
I think it answers your question regarding spamming dodge rolls... or do you want me to teach you the game ?
I am melee, as written ten times or more in the thread and in the title, so no I do not use snipe.
I wish Wrecking blow could be as spammable as RD, but it requires some skill to land (contrary to RD, target can move outside of hitbox or dodge), the ability can miss, all the opposite of RD. When target is low life, we 2Hers change for reverse slash (also avoidable, dodgeable). You see outside of RD, it requires skill to earn a kill.

Indeed, you just lost your bet.

Easy mode thinking ?
Easy mode playing @Justice31st ?

mistermacintosh · June 2016

EnOeZ wrote: »

I will define skill in a game by the virtuous symphony of plays and counterplays.
Ultimately, at the highest level of skill, there is only mind game and ability execution speed left.

For many top PVPers, of course game balance is necessary to accomplish highest levels of skills and therefore of pleasure in a game.
To date game balance aka "Combat and character mechanics" is the underdog department of the Elder Scrolls Online despite excellent basics (block mechanic, dodge, soft targeting, sprint, crouch for example).

Threre comes the Melee DK in a XvX or 1vX, let's assume he is quite skilled...
He uses Line of Sight to get rid of rangers and sorcs, uses terrain, heal when he as room, charge, stun, control, dodge roll, root, tank... he pops scales when out of stamina, times his bursts, uses everything he can to reposition himself while dynamically re-evaluating the situation: he slows or root an annoying opponent and charge another, etc... Well he tries to out-play 1 to 3+ players ALL THE TIME in Cyrodiil, since he is melee and gets all the heat each time.

No the skilled player does not play in Zergs since Zergs does not use skill: no skill=no pleasure for him.

And there comes the Cyrodiil Templar !
His skill ? Only one, made of the push of a single button: the "Jesus Beam" Radiant Destruction!
Features?

Max range execute! MAX RANGE!
Super Mega Safe at 28m and beyond!

Ultimate-like damage!

Spammable!

From 50% on (50% !!)

Does not break on dodge! => easy mode

Does not stop with Line of Sight! => easy mode

Does not care about roots and slows => easy mode

Standard cost!

Let's compare it to the DK execute...
Oh well, since there is no execute for DK, let's use reverse slash and morphs:
Melee Range

Super Unsafe (need to be in the heat) => high risk, high reward => skill

Vulnerable to dodge => counterplay = > skill

Vulnerable to Line of Sight => counterplay = > skill

Vulnerable to roots and slows => skill

Balanced ?

Back to Cyrodiil...
Then the skilled DKs is despite the odds holding his ground and comes the Templar.
WITHOUT ANY CONSIDERATION about the DK"s Health, insta Jesus Beam from 28m away or more...
Stupid move? It should, but not with the current design. As a consequence the DK is playing effectively with 50% of his health!
A 30K Health DK becomes a 15K Health one since dropping below that threshold means death with the beam on. Why ?
No insta-heal available (Dragon Blood is still inefficient in Cyrodiil despite tens of threads, it is an abandonned ability for now)

Vigor is nice but is not instant, same for Rally and morphs (despite the final heal which is not spammable, contrary to Radiant Destruction)

No insta CC, despite Fossilize only 15 meters (vs 28 meters Jesus Beam)

No insta CC either despite Stonefist because the projectile is too slow

Grip is as unrialable as always.

2H charge does not stun (two GCD+travel time is too slow)

Invasion form SB could work (if not rooted in melee range (...) but there is still travel time)

Inhale could work but only 8m vs 28+

=> Radiant Destruction has no realistic counter-play for Melee DKs in Cyrodiil.

What do we need ?

On Templar side:
Much higher cost of Radiant Destruction, increasing with recasts

Needs to break with Line of Sight

Needs to break with Dodge

Reduce range (8m ideally, 15m to be fossilize-able, 22m to be Invasion-able to the very minimum)

Considered a projectile (reflectable) => counterplay = skill= pleasure

On DK side:
2H Charge needs to free from roots

Take Flight needs to free from roots (only ultimate that is counterable that way (and by lag))

Stone Fist needs to travel faster

Replace "Elder Dragon" (close to useless) by a defensive feature like resistance to executes (similar to Vampire undeath) and or channels.

On mechanics side
Channels need to insta break with Line of Sight and dodge rolls => plays and counter plays => skill = > pleasure

Otherwise I do agree Templars, apart from that skill, are far from being as terrifying as OP Nightblades (Outstanding burst, ultra superior mobility, survivability and sustain, best passives in game and synergies, best DLCs with 3 out of 4 favoring them, new skill lines fitting the playstyle, many one "ability wonders" that pack everything with outstanding damage, excellent ultimate generation mechanics, Premium ultimates), but that is another story...

Of course, in 1v1 RD is manageable but I believe the Strength of Radiant Destruction overshadows the weakness of the class in mass PVP and that where it can be casted with absolutely no skill for max results (thats why so many do it) and it will be virtuous for the game and the class to redesign it.

So buff DK, which has a ton of survivability and CC and nerf Templar which has like two or three decent actives and pretty much no CC. Yeah, this isn't biased at all. Are you even using your poison abilities, sir?

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2016

@EnOeZ , why not jump on my bandwagon that you should be able to regenerate at least SOME stamina while blocking. That one change would deal with a big part of your complaint I think. I feel for the tanky specs (its my personal preference too) but I personally think you're attacking the issue/your concern from the wrong angle. You'd get a lot more traction with me if you asked for a buff to tanking, instead of a nerf to the Templar Dawn's Wrath toolkit.

Xexpo · June 2016

The title of this thread basically relays that anything anyone states, that is contrary to what the OP believes, is wrong from the get go.
The ultra aggressive way they respond to every comment also supports this.
So don't even bother.

Sorry Mr. salty-Esport-balance dude, who is better than 99.9% of the players and devs in this game.

but...

"It's safe to say that if you don't know at least one counter that works for your build at this point, you might be hopeless."
- quoted from one of the other mindless 'nerf RD because I can't adapt to new things' threads

(and that's me quoting me!)