Justice PvP Dreams

Narnor · June 2016

So. Alot of people (myself included) would love to see some form of PvP part of the justice system implemented. However, alot of issues is raised from this, primarily the problem of "griefing" and the problem that it would be exclusive to high lvl characters, due to non scaling in PvE zones.

This lead to Zenimax officially declared justice PvP development dead, because there is alot of problems making it balanced.

This made me think, how have YOU envisioned the justice system fully fleshed out?
For me, it was some sort of world skill where you "transform" into an Enforcer in a watch tower, with Guard statline and abilities (to combat the potentiel griefing at the cost of customisation) where you replace one of the Guards in an area (you are however free to roam as you please inside the city boundaries)

But it got me thinking, how have you envisioned the justice system? Simple free for all, or a more delicate system? Would love to hear your suggestions (maybe we could get lucky, and one of the ideas could reignite the creativity in the development team ;-) )

Tandor · June 2016

You do know it's really cruel to continue beating a dead horse so long after its demise? Not least when it's been done so many times already.

PvPers going to get small scale PvP including dueling, why don't they discuss that and help shape the development of something that is definitely going to happen rather than continue harping on about something that we've been clearly told is not going to happen?

kevlarto_ESO · June 2016

The problem with the justice system pvp no matter how they did it. it would have still have had a great deal of griefing, and ended up turning a lot of pve players off, which would have not been healthy for the game and would have cost ZOS lost revenue.
One problem would have been players that got flagged even though they did not steal anything, the effort ZOS would have had to do to make the system flushed out to be fair for everyone would have taken a huge amount of programming resources and time, I think they made the right choice dumping it.

Narnor · June 2016

First of all. Ita not "beating a dead horse" its writing about a greatly anticipated part of the game that alot of players have been looking forward to.

Secondly, i fully appreciate a discussion of dueling and/or arena. You can have opinions on 2 slightly different subjekts no?

Thirdly. This is an "how have you envisioned it/dreamed of it" thread. Not a "zomg i need dis right nows or me unsubsribes!". I didnt know it was "cruel" to discuss civily ones hopes and dreams of a part of a game that was anounced by the company who made said game.

Kendaric · June 2016

The way I'd have imagined it:

- Only players at bounty threshold 2 or 3 are attackable (the actual bounty, not heat). That way accidentally stealing something won't flag you, as well as making small time thievery not too punishing.
- Enforcers wouldn't be able to use their normal skills, but get special skills.
- Players would be battle-leveled once they either don the enforcer tabard or reach the bounty threshold.

Tandor · June 2016

Narnor wrote: »

First of all. Ita not "beating a dead horse" its writing about a greatly anticipated part of the game that alot of players have been looking forward to.

Secondly, i fully appreciate a discussion of dueling and/or arena. You can have opinions on 2 slightly different subjekts no?

Thirdly. This is an "how have you envisioned it/dreamed of it" thread. Not a "zomg i need dis right nows or me unsubsribes!". I didnt know it was "cruel" to discuss civily ones hopes and dreams of a part of a game that was anounced by the company who made said game.

It may have been greatly anticipated by some, but it was killed off by ZOS some months ago now and there have been so many threads on it already with a current one on the front page which you could just have easily contributed to instead of creating yet another thread about something that isn't going to happen.

However, don't get me wrong. I welcome such threads because they always illustrate why PvP and PvE don't mix and remind ZOS of the wisdom of their decision to keep the playstyles separate in future.

Digiman · June 2016

For me the guards would start out weak normal mobs, but depending on your bounty level they would grow more difficult till you called a world boss type guard captain.

Depending on your bounty you could hunt other players in bandit type camps with there own strong enforcers to get share of their bounty.

My solution to the obvious problem with the fact that a character could create one to solely create a target for gold farming is to give to enemy players who want to be bandits to get gold for certain towns they hold hostage, the longer they hold the more gold they accumulate. Other players could then work to free said town and reclaim parts of the gold from players they kill like Tel Var stones, said players who are bandits can do the same thing.

Once either player feels they have had enough they could then head to a guard captain or bandit boss for a share of their gold to store, though they must reach specific towns to find their captain or boss.

There won't be any new skills for these behaviors, the idea is that your there to generate gold and loot from ransacking and defending.

However players who don't want to participate will be protected unless they participate in the combat inorder to complete quests.

The players who participate will be stat leveled against enemy players of end game.

Rev Rielle · June 2016

Well it wouldn't be PvP, in the sense that most players think, I think. But of course it could be implemented successfully into the game.

However, didn't ZoS say they'd given up trying though because it was too difficult?

Lysette · June 2016

If you read between the lines of what ZOS said about it, it means "you guys, who want that, will find ways to abuse such a system to cause grief to players, who otherwise enjoy the justice system. We won't implement it, because you want it by all the wrong reasons and it would create more problems than we want to have to deal with". And I think they are right.

Dubhliam · June 2016

I already gave some of my suggestion on how it could be implemented in my thread that got closed.

One particular idea that is not intuitive to other players:
Veteran (PvP) heists/sacraments.
Just like regular heists/sacraments but available only for lvl 50+ players (you could even make those instances disable all CP passives).
The progress is the same, it would be a purely PvE content until one of the following occurs:
-you get spotted by a guard
-you put the place on high alert (5+ normal NPC sightings)
Law Enforcers can queue for that activity and are notified when an Outlaw is spotted in a heist or sacrament - giving them the option to enter that instance.
The Enforcer's goal inside that instance is to catch the Outlaw before the time limit expires.

The Outlaw's reward for successfully completing a "veteran heist/sacrament" is a high chance of getting gold gear (including Bahraha's and Syvarra's Jewelry).
The Enforcer's reward for catching an Outlaw can then easily be mirrored to reflect the reward of an Outlaw. I was thinking they would also gain (good) rewards from dailies (catch one Outlaw in a heist/sacrament).

Rohamad_Ali · June 2016

They would need to make the guards killable . It would be too much on the outlaw fighting immortal NPCs and Players .

Osteos · June 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

I already gave some of my suggestion on how it could be implemented in my thread that got closed.

One particular idea that is not intuitive to other players:
Veteran (PvP) heists/sacraments.
Just like regular heists/sacraments but available only for lvl 50+ players (you could even make those instances disable all CP passives).
The progress is the same, it would be a purely PvE content until one of the following occurs:
-you get spotted by a guard
-you put the place on high alert (5+ normal NPC sightings)
Law Enforcers can queue for that activity and are notified when an Outlaw is spotted in a heist or sacrament - giving them the option to enter that instance.
The Enforcer's goal inside that instance is to catch the Outlaw before the time limit expires.

The Outlaw's reward for successfully completing a "veteran heist/sacrament" is a high chance of getting gold gear (including Bahraha's and Syvarra's Jewelry).
The Enforcer's reward for catching an Outlaw can then easily be mirrored to reflect the reward of an Outlaw. I was thinking they would also gain (good) rewards from dailies (catch one Outlaw in a heist/sacrament).

This sounds fun

Dubhliam · June 2016

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

They would need to make the guards killable . It would be too much on the outlaw fighting immortal NPCs and Players .

Pretty much everyone agrees on that.

Osteos · June 2016

Narnor wrote: »

So. Alot of people (myself included) would love to see some form of PvP part of the justice system implemented. However, alot of issues is raised from this, primarily the problem of "griefing" and the problem that it would be exclusive to high lvl characters, due to non scaling in PvE zones.

This lead to Zenimax officially declared justice PvP development dead, because there is alot of problems making it balanced.

This made me think, how have YOU envisioned the justice system fully fleshed out?
For me, it was some sort of world skill where you "transform" into an Enforcer in a watch tower, with Guard statline and abilities (to combat the potentiel griefing at the cost of customisation) where you replace one of the Guards in an area (you are however free to roam as you please inside the city boundaries)

But it got me thinking, how have you envisioned the justice system? Simple free for all, or a more delicate system? Would love to hear your suggestions (maybe we could get lucky, and one of the ideas could reignite the creativity in the development team ;-) )

This is interesting as well. What abilities would you give the guard enforcers?

Rohamad_Ali · June 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

They would need to make the guards killable . It would be too much on the outlaw fighting immortal NPCs and Players .

Pretty much everyone agrees on that.

Just stating the obvious for ZOS , not players . Hers the other thing ...

When someone heals a flagged player , they get dragged into the conflict with a bounty too . A toggle needs to be put in to keep PvE players from healing PvP players , so they don't get killed by accident .

Sausage · June 2016

Just give us big budget Darkfall, full pvp with full loot in massive seamless open world, it aint getting better than that.

I think ESO has already enough griefing in IC, for those who like it.

Dubhliam · June 2016

I have another suggestion:

- players are never flagged for PvP, no matter how high the bounty they have
- Enforcers can only "apprehend" a player with a bounty, triggering the "pay bounty dialogue"
- then AND ONLY THEN- if a player fails to respond in 15 seconds or chooses the "flee" option is that player flagged for PvP

Combine that with a "prevent stealing" toggle and you have a grief proof PvP Justice system.

Gidorick · June 2016

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

They would need to make the guards killable . It would be too much on the outlaw fighting immortal NPCs and Players .

That's pretty much what many of us want.

Killable guards
PVP enforcers

Fun ensues.

Gidorick · June 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

I have another suggestion:

- players are never flagged for PvP, no matter how high the bounty they have
- Enforcers can only "apprehend" a player with a bounty, triggering the "pay bounty dialogue"
- then AND ONLY THEN- if a player fails to respond in 15 seconds or chooses the "flee" option is that player flagged for PvP

Combine that with a "prevent stealing" toggle and you have a grief proof PvP Justice system.

Does the player who is apprehending the outlaw player get the gold that is surrendered @Dubhliam ? If so... I like the idea! Give players the same mechanics as guards.

Teridaxus · June 2016

What the other said, the griefing potential is too great and zos cancelled it.
I mean just look at cyrodiil how well pvp works.

Divinius · June 2016

I really wish people would stop beating this dead horse.

It's actually making the forums start to smell bad.

Osteos · June 2016

Divinius wrote: »

I really wish people would stop beating this dead horse.

It's actually making the forums start to smell bad.

This is a thread for how you envisioned the justice system to work or your dream justice system.

No dead horses here, make your way to the crafting bags threads...

Vercingetorix · June 2016

This topic is dead - stop beating a dead horse. ZoS has given you your answer: NO

You are getting an "arena" in the future to duel with. "Justice PvP" is just griefing and trolling in disguise. ZoS realized this and discontinued the project.

ColoursYouHave · June 2016

All they needed was to make an "opt-in" option. By default, Justice System PVP is disabled, meaning if you steal something you still can't be attacked by other players. However, somebody could go into the settings and "opt-in", meaning other players could attack them if they had a bounty. This way, people who want to steal in peace can do so, and people who want to participate in Justice System PVP can choose to do so, and both groups of people are happy. But as we all know, ZOS hates giving players options, and would rather go for the "all-or-nothing" approach, so this isn't something we will ever see happen. As much as I want Justice System PVP, this really is getting to the point of beating a dead horse. Some players want it, others don't, and ZOS isn't willing to take the time to come up with something that works for both sides (even though the solution is fairly simple and has been suggested multiple times). Maybe if the game is still alive and well a couple years down the road they'd reconsider taking a look, but in the foreseeable future this simply isn't going to happen.

Tandor · June 2016

ColoursYouHave wrote: »

All they needed was to make an "opt-in" option. By default, Justice System PVP is disabled, meaning if you steal something you still can't be attacked by other players. However, somebody could go into the settings and "opt-in", meaning other players could attack them if they had a bounty. This way, people who want to steal in peace can do so, and people who want to participate in Justice System PVP can choose to do so, and both groups of people are happy. But as we all know, ZOS hates giving players options, and would rather go for the "all-or-nothing" approach, so this isn't something we will ever see happen. As much as I want Justice System PVP, this really is getting to the point of beating a dead horse. Some players want it, others don't, and ZOS isn't willing to take the time to come up with something that works for both sides (even though the solution is fairly simple and has been suggested multiple times). Maybe if the game is still alive and well a couple years down the road they'd reconsider taking a look, but in the foreseeable future this simply isn't going to happen.

It wasn't ZOS who disliked the "opt-in" option, it was the PvPers. They were never happy to accept a total opt-out of PvP for PvErs committing PvE crimes in PvE areas, they wanted an automatic opt-in at a certain bounty level, thereby limiting the extent to which PvEers could participate in the PvE content.

In any event, I agree with you that the PvP element of the Justice System isn't going to happen and those still pursuing it are indeed beating the proverbial equine corpse. I don't think they will look at it again because they're introducing other forms of small-scale PvP in PvP areas including dueling instead.

Xylphan · June 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

I already gave some of my suggestion on how it could be implemented in my thread that got closed.

One particular idea that is not intuitive to other players:
Veteran (PvP) heists/sacraments.
Just like regular heists/sacraments but available only for lvl 50+ players (you could even make those instances disable all CP passives).
The progress is the same, it would be a purely PvE content until one of the following occurs:
-you get spotted by a guard
-you put the place on high alert (5+ normal NPC sightings)
Law Enforcers can queue for that activity and are notified when an Outlaw is spotted in a heist or sacrament - giving them the option to enter that instance.
The Enforcer's goal inside that instance is to catch the Outlaw before the time limit expires.

The Outlaw's reward for successfully completing a "veteran heist/sacrament" is a high chance of getting gold gear (including Bahraha's and Syvarra's Jewelry).
The Enforcer's reward for catching an Outlaw can then easily be mirrored to reflect the reward of an Outlaw. I was thinking they would also gain (good) rewards from dailies (catch one Outlaw in a heist/sacrament).

Cool, except I can think of multiple ways to exploit that system without even trying.

Any PvP system that gives rewards can and will be gamed/exploited. In this case, vigilantism would rapidly give rise to what would amount to organized crime with players paying "protection" so they don't get constantly harassed by powerful guilds. In fact, there is historical precedent of exactly this happening in the real world when things like fire and police were handled by "for profit" organizations ("Nice house you have there, be a damn shame if anything were to happen to it").

The road to hell...er...Coldharbour is paved with good intentions. The PvP justice system stemmed from good intentions, but the strongest advocates care as much about justice as Malog Bal cares about putting you in warm comfy bed.

Korah_Eaglecry · June 2016

There is already an active thread about this. Why are you making new threads about something that is definitively dead?

Tryxus · June 2016

With the seperation on PvP and PvE through Battle Spirit and Levelling, it's almost impossible at this point to make a fair PvP aspect of the Justice System

Besides, ZOS needs to seriously overhaul and improve the current portion that we have right now: faction based bounties, killable guards, additional crimes, trespass mechanic to every house you break in,...

arkansas_ESO · June 2016

I really, really feel like Hew's Bane should have been a PVP zone. They expressed concerns about "keeping PVP in PVP zones" and vice versa, so I feel like a closed off area like Hew's Bane would have been great. Picture this: Theft, assault, and destruction of property are at an all time high in Abah's Landing, and the merchant lords are looking for any and all able-bodied warriors to help defend their investments in the city (homes, stalls, cargo on ships, etc.) Meanwhile, the Thieves Guild, looking to reestablish their hold on the city, are looking for any aspiring thieves to help keep pressure on the merchant lords. Players could choose to either work for the merchant lords (guards) or the Thieves Guild (thieves.) Thieves would be assigned repeatable quests to destroy the cargo of a merchant lord who didn't pay up, steal from a stall/house/etc., go and get payments from certain clients, etc. Guards would only be able to attack well known thieves on sight (let's say a bounty of other 10k gold, which would be obtained after maybe an hour of thieving or by attacking one player guard), while thieves would be able to attack any player guards on sight (player guards flag for PVP by equipping a guard outfit/tabard.)

I know this will never happen, but just imagine being a thief and dropping down on another player from above, trying to quickly kill him so you can rob the nearby stall before he can rez and run back. Or imagine being in a group with 2-3 other guards and you're on a boat defending your employer's cargo from 2-3 thieves who are dead set on destroying it. I really feel like ZOS are missing out on opportunities to make zones with lasting, interesting mechanics that keep players in the zone and in the game for years to come. And what do we get in it's place? A new zone with 5-10 hours of quests that you'll go through once or twice and never again, and then the zone's dead in a month or two.

/rant

Luigi_Vampa · June 2016

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

I really, really feel like Hew's Bane should have been a PVP zone. They expressed concerns about "keeping PVP in PVP zones" and vice versa, so I feel like a closed off area like Hew's Bane would have been great. Picture this: Theft, assault, and destruction of property are at an all time high in Abah's Landing, and the merchant lords are looking for any and all able-bodied warriors to help defend their investments in the city (homes, stalls, cargo on ships, etc.) Meanwhile, the Thieves Guild, looking to reestablish their hold on the city, are looking for any aspiring thieves to help keep pressure on the merchant lords. Players could choose to either work for the merchant lords (guards) or the Thieves Guild (thieves.) Thieves would be assigned repeatable quests to destroy the cargo of a merchant lord who didn't pay up, steal from a stall/house/etc., go and get payments from certain clients, etc. Guards would only be able to attack well known thieves on sight (let's say a bounty of other 10k gold, which would be obtained after maybe an hour of thieving or by attacking one player guard), while thieves would be able to attack any player guards on sight (player guards flag for PVP by equipping a guard outfit/tabard.)

I know this will never happen, but just imagine being a thief and dropping down on another player from above, trying to quickly kill him so you can rob the nearby stall before he can rez and run back. Or imagine being in a group with 2-3 other guards and you're on a boat defending your employer's cargo from 2-3 thieves who are dead set on destroying it. I really feel like ZOS are missing out on opportunities to make zones with lasting, interesting mechanics that keep players in the zone and in the game for years to come. And what do we get in it's place? A new zone with 5-10 hours of quests that you'll go through once or twice and never again, and then the zone's dead in a month or two.

/rant

It really comes down to PvP creating dynamic content that can be played for years and PvE creating static content that is completed maybe a few times until players need new content, leaving the old content a ghost town.

Divinius · June 2016

Typhoios wrote: »

It really comes down to PvP creating dynamic content that can be played for years and PvE creating static content that is completed maybe a few times until players need new content, leaving the old content a ghost town.

PvP does indeed create dynamic content. I'll totally grant that. Unfortunately, it's dynamic content that a significant portion of the playerbase will want to avoid at all costs.