Cyrodiil unskilled : Melee DKs vs Radiant Destruction

Didaco · June 2016

Have you tried slotting a bow with poison arrow?

Serious question, just to be clear.

WillhelmBlack · June 2016

Hey, I have a Stamblade that has 16K health, 3000 weapon damage and recovery. For real.

On my last stint in Cyrodiil I was killed once by RD. Why? I have 16K health and couldn't Cloak or break LoS. Tough isn't it, it was my choice to kill those 2 people out of that zerg. I didn't seriously think i'd get away with it. Every single one of my other characters could've probably got away to safety but they wouldn't have got 2 kills. Your choice.

EnOeZ · June 2016

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Don't see any difference with Snipes.

For once I disagree with you Willhelm.
On the contrary !

Snipes requires an comparatively heavy setup to be deadly:

You have to build for damage and possibly go for a gank build (sacrifice regen)
You have to play specifically to maximize your build (be patient, strategize, choose your position wisely)
You have to activate all your buffs and potions as fast as possible
You have to forecast your possible retreat
You have to animation cancel

Powerful? Yes but at a cost. Additionally, If you are caught, you are as good as dead (weak defenses, low to no regen)

As the prey however:

You can hear the snipe coming, unmount and block
You can reflect (DKs)
You can simply dodge and avoid the hit.

Snipe is a problem when caught on mount with low stamina pool (early characters)

That is a system of plays and counterplays => skill => fun => pleasure.

Contrary to Radiant destruction spam in Cyrodiil...

--
Even for Templars, how can it be satisfactory to achieve a kill that way ?
Satisfaction => pleasure.
No satisfaction => no pleasure.

Wreuntzylla · June 2016

I would give money to have a way to stop them. Maybe a long range bow skill. A poster above said poison arrow. I like that but really it should be called something that reflects the nerdrage in this thread. How about 'Venom Arrow?'.

EnOeZ · June 2016

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Hey, I have a Stamblade that has 16K health, 3000 weapon damage and recovery. For real.

On my last stint in Cyrodiil I was killed once by RD. Why? I have 16K health and couldn't Cloak or break LoS. Tough isn't it, it was my choice to kill those 2 people out of that zerg. I didn't seriously think i'd get away with it. Every single one of my other characters could've probably got away to safety but they wouldn't have got 2 kills. Your choice.

Nightblades have several very strong defensive moves and are right now in a category of their own in Cyrodiil (at high skill level, where you are probably), remotely followed by sorcs. DKs and Templars last are last partly due to not being mobile..

AOE Fear that goes through block !!!
Cloak (Invisibility)
Shadow image (to reposition easily on the battlefield)

Additionnaly they are very bursty by nature and less likely to be found for a long time in the middle of the heat (contrary to not mobile classes like DKs and Templars).

Lutallo · June 2016

"RD has no realistic counterplay" There's this thing called Venom Arrow to interrupt it, you also have bash and can LoS.
You make out as though Templars have an infinitely long-ranged spammable Soul Assault.
The reality is, it does minimal damage outside execute range, is a channel and can be interrupted by any skills or bashes.

EnOeZ · June 2016

Didaco wrote: »

Have you tried slotting a bow with poison arrow?

Serious question, just to be clear.

As stated in the title "Melee DKs vs Radiant Destruction"

Bow is not melee, your position on the battlefield is not the same, the gameplay is of course a lot safer.
However I am sure that other classes (with effective burst heals, mobility and/or shields) and range weapons users are in a different boat.

The post is a no option situation for some type of players.

WillhelmBlack · June 2016

EnOeZ wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Don't see any difference with Snipes.

For once I disagree with you Willhelm.
On the contrary !

Snipes requires an comparatively heavy setup to be deadly:
You have to build for damage and possibly go for a gank build (sacrifice regen)

You have to play specifically to maximize your build (be patient, strategize, choose your position wisely)

You have to activate all your buffs and potions as fast as possible

You have to forecast your possible retreat

You have to animation cancel

Powerful? Yes but at a cost. Additionally, If you are caught, you are as good as dead (weak defenses, low to no regen)

As the prey however:
You can hear the snipe coming, unmount and block

You can reflect (DKs)

You can simply dodge and avoid the hit.

Snipe is a problem when caught on mount with low stamina pool (early characters)

That is a system of plays and counterplays => skill => fun => pleasure.

Contrary to Radiant destruction spam in Cyrodiil...

--
Even for Templars, how can it be satisfactory to achieve a kill that way ?
Satisfaction => pleasure.
No satisfaction => no pleasure.

All my characters apart from my DK would prefer J Beam than Snipe, that's only because you get extra damage output from Scales. There are little to no counters to Stam DK, I'm glad my Templar has one! (that's after 25 minutes of Puncturing Sweep and they haven't killed me in 5 seconds).

EnOeZ · June 2016

Lutallo wrote: »

"RD has no realistic counterplay" There's this thing called Venom Arrow to interrupt it, you also have bash and can LoS.
You make out as though Templars have an infinitely long-ranged spammable Soul Assault.
The reality is, it does minimal damage outside execute range, is a channel and can be interrupted by any skills or bashes.

Please read again both the title of the post and the post itself

It's about Melee DKs in Mass PVP situation.

When you find a bow Melee DK that can shoot back from 28M+, you tell me.
So, still no, there is no realistic counterplay to being Radiant-destructionned as melee DK, targeted from 28m+ !
We can't even charge at that distance !

DaveMoeDee · June 2016

SienneYviete wrote: »

All I see here is stam dks salty as hell as there is finally a counter to their masterclass dodge roll spec 1vX builds. Terribad back line jesus beam spammers in light armor are just as bad as the pew pew focused aim spammers I see constantly in pvp and are usually glassy as hell and die in a couple of hits.

Now the heavy armor wearing tank/healer group spec templars are the ones that will ruin your 1vX and rightly so. They have been built for a specific purpose, a direct counter to the godlike infini stam builds running rampant around cyro 1vXing the newbies all geared up for pve.

In battle, we would expect glass canons in Bach rows. I don't see a problem. Tanks are up front to keep enemies busy while the DPS pick them off.

I also find 20 Jesus beams on one guy funny.

DaveMoeDee · June 2016

EnOeZ wrote: »

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

Your constant 20% dodge chance feels like 80%, and your wings reflect nearly everything else forcing us to use the very broken toppling charge and puncturing sweeps which has bugger all range and is easy to get the flank on us.

Go on a wrecking blow spam fest and we won't have the stamina to break free after the third stun. Problem solved.

Once again, RD is ok in a 1v1 scenario, but not in Cyrodiil where it leaves some melee classes without ANY possible response in the 22-28m (+Cyrodiil distance buffs).

That is the issue !

Concerning WB, another powerful ability, landing it is not as easy as Radiant Destruction point and click and requires you to go in the heat, not cast from the roof of a castle or outpost.

Additionally, there is no risk, no cost and no skill involved in RD (outside of 1V1):
no setup,

an easy to meet condition,

an abusive bypass of chore defense mechanisms (dodgeproof and Line of Sight)

for so much spammable ultimate-like damage from that far !

Have someone in your group spam it back.

SwaminoNowlino · June 2016

EnOeZ wrote: »

Lutallo wrote: »

"RD has no realistic counterplay" There's this thing called Venom Arrow to interrupt it, you also have bash and can LoS.
You make out as though Templars have an infinitely long-ranged spammable Soul Assault.
The reality is, it does minimal damage outside execute range, is a channel and can be interrupted by any skills or bashes.

Please read again both the title of the post and the post itself
It's about Melee DKs in Mass PVP situation.

When you find a bow Melee DK that can shoot back from 28M+, you tell me.
So, still no, there is no realistic counterplay to being Radiant-destructionned as melee DK, targeted from 28m+ !
We can't even charge at that distance !

You mean the build you chose to play as it offers you advantages over other players that thusly comes with disadvantages against others...? That would be like arguing your drag racing car, built to go super fast in a straight line, should be able to beat a NASCAR around a circular track. If you choose to play close range and melee then you'll have trouble against ranged opponents, just like ranged opponents will have trouble when you get up in their face. Or you could go with a balanced build with melee on front bar and ranged on back. Advantages and disadvantages. Moves and Counter Moves. Heaven forbid we implement some strategy. (ps, I don't even have a magplar, it is the only class I do not have).

EnOeZ · June 2016

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

EnOeZ wrote: »

Lutallo wrote: »

"RD has no realistic counterplay" There's this thing called Venom Arrow to interrupt it, you also have bash and can LoS.
You make out as though Templars have an infinitely long-ranged spammable Soul Assault.
The reality is, it does minimal damage outside execute range, is a channel and can be interrupted by any skills or bashes.

Please read again both the title of the post and the post itself
It's about Melee DKs in Mass PVP situation.

When you find a bow Melee DK that can shoot back from 28M+, you tell me.
So, still no, there is no realistic counterplay to being Radiant-destructionned as melee DK, targeted from 28m+ !
We can't even charge at that distance !

You mean the build you chose to play as it offers you advantages over other players that thusly comes with disadvantages against others...? That would be like arguing your drag racing car, built to go super fast in a straight line, should be able to beat a NASCAR around a circular track. If you choose to play close range and melee then you'll have trouble against ranged opponents, just like ranged opponents will have trouble when you get up in their face. Or you could go with a balanced build with melee on front bar and ranged on back. Advantages and disadvantages. Moves and Counter Moves. Heaven forbid we implement some strategy. (ps, I don't even have a magplar, it is the only class I do not have).

You cloud also have told me that I could heal with a resto staff and go magicka.
You could also say I could have chosen a nightblade and cloak.
You could also have told me to roll a templar and Radiant Destruction back to him.
Or roll a sorc and streak out or in...

You could have told so many other things too...

Outstanding logic that you have!

Thanks for your already forgotten input...

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2016

Please don't take this wrong but I didn't have time to read your whole post. I may come back to it later if I remember to, but I've seen this general complaint enough times that I think I can cursorily respond to it. I'm needing to leave soon so I didn't have time to read fully. What I will say is that Templar was designed initially as a counter to DK. Between Cleansing Ritual and Eclipse, it was clear Templar was meant to dig deep into some of the biggest strengths of the DK class. DK has some nice counterplay though with Talons nullifying jabs. I was not entirely happy with the removal of Blinding Flashes to make Radiant Destruction, but I think too much is being said about it. Dragon Leap them. Interrupt them with a poison shot (morph name eludes me, but I'm not one to remember the names of every ability, I just know what they do) - if you're a stam build this should be your forte as a DK. If you're a magic build use the fire staff interrupt or simply cast efficient purge. Voila, problem solved. Efficient purge will have the added benefit of protecting your team mates as well. The skill has a counter, people are just mad that they have to use a skill to counter a skill (by the way the Templar has to do this with his cleanse or self heal, since we're speaking of Mag-Plar). In that case you can always block (Which DK's have strong passives for) or use line of sight. DK also has the best bonus Spell Resistance as well in the same block passive. If you're out in the open, tough. Templar is the least mobile class of the 4, there is a reason they gave them this skill.

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2016

EnOeZ wrote: »

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

Your constant 20% dodge chance feels like 80%, and your wings reflect nearly everything else forcing us to use the very broken toppling charge and puncturing sweeps which has bugger all range and is easy to get the flank on us.

Go on a wrecking blow spam fest and we won't have the stamina to break free after the third stun. Problem solved.

Once again, RD is ok in a 1v1 scenario, but not in Cyrodiil where it leaves some melee classes without ANY possible response in the 22-28m (+Cyrodiil distance buffs).

That is the issue !

Concerning WB, another powerful ability, landing it is not as easy as Radiant Destruction point and click and requires you to go in the heat, not cast from the roof of a castle or outpost.

Additionally, there is no risk, no cost and no skill involved in RD (outside of 1V1):
no setup,

an easy to meet condition,

an abusive bypass of chore defense mechanisms (dodgeproof and Line of Sight)

for so much spammable ultimate-like damage from that far !

It is not ultimate-damage - it is execute damage, there is a difference. Soul Assault is definitely not like this skill, apart from a blue similar appearance. I'd like to point out before someone flips out at me for making this comment, that I play a Knightly Stamplar type build. I don't use RD, and I regularly counter it. The counters I use are the same ones your DK can use, or at the very least similar (Efficient Purge, Block, LoS, Interrupts, Shielding).

olsborg · June 2016

I agree strongly with the OP, radiant destruction is just out of control, 41m range and starts at 50%, undodgeable...yea ok...

Tormy · June 2016

I'm not the best stam DK but here's a 1v3 radiant spammer where I survive the RD: http://sendvid.com/11vvybza

Honestly I don't think radiant is as OP as it's made out to be on the forums.

Jaybe_Mawfaka · June 2016

Docmandu wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

the meta

I'm sure you can post just as many screenshots where it's all snipes..

naah, I can reflect snipes and kill archers with their own snipes, but I can't reflect or dodge this *** cancer skill

Docmandu · June 2016

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

the meta

I'm sure you can post just as many screenshots where it's all snipes..

naah, I can reflect snipes and kill archers with their own snipes, but I can't reflect or dodge this *** cancer skill

I heard there's some thing called block, which stam DKs do rather well too.. and DK has a 41m class skill interrupt (stone fist).

Anyway all skills are annoying, if people kill you with it :-) Vid of tormy shows it's not an instant I-WIN button as some seem to think... but annoying nevertheless (but so would 3 ppl doing snipes / spambush / WB / ... be).

Jaybe_Mawfaka · June 2016

Docmandu wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

the meta

I'm sure you can post just as many screenshots where it's all snipes..

naah, I can reflect snipes and kill archers with their own snipes, but I can't reflect or dodge this *** cancer skill

I heard there's some thing called block, which stam DKs do rather well too.. and DK has a 41m class skill interrupt (stone fist).

Anyway all skills are annoying, if people kill you with it :-) Vid of tormy shows it's not an instant I-WIN button as some seem to think... but annoying nevertheless (but so would 3 ppl doing snipes / spambush / WB / ... be).

you sound like a templar
What are you trying to say? Everyone knows that they buffed this skill too much because it was way more useles than it should be before and now almost every templar are abusing this as much as possible. I can counter 3 snipes dummies, I can counter wb spammers or spambushers, but I can't counter this spammable ***. 80% of the templars are using it when your health is at 100% because they know how big the dmg is. You can insta die with 10-15k ticks when your health is not even at execute range, its clearly broken and overpowered compare to other executes. Like dk doesn't even have executioner skill and bow skill line doesn't have executioner, so I feel the pain of the guy who created this thread

Jaybe_Mawfaka · June 2016

double

Alcast · June 2016

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

the meta

nerf ambush, def a l2p issue you could have dodged that ambush man

@EnOeZ Beam can get up to 48m in range in cyrodiil.

Bashev · June 2016

Docmandu wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

the meta

I'm sure you can post just as many screenshots where it's all snipes..

naah, I can reflect snipes and kill archers with their own snipes, but I can't reflect or dodge this *** cancer skill

I heard there's some thing called block, which stam DKs do rather well too.. and DK has a 41m class skill interrupt (stone fist).

Anyway all skills are annoying, if people kill you with it :-) Vid of tormy shows it's not an instant I-WIN button as some seem to think... but annoying nevertheless (but so would 3 ppl doing snipes / spambush / WB / ... be).

Radian destruction is the best counter to block. It drains your stamina in the best possible way. It ticks every half second and if you block the whole duration you will be charged for 6 blocks. The CD for block cost is 0.5 seconds. For example if I block light attack skill and bash i will be charged only once for the block. Average block cost nowadays is 1.5 k stamina per block. If I have to block a full radian destruction I need 9k stamina.

EnOeZ · June 2016

Docmandu wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

the meta

I'm sure you can post just as many screenshots where it's all snipes..

naah, I can reflect snipes and kill archers with their own snipes, but I can't reflect or dodge this *** cancer skill

I heard there's some thing called block, which stam DKs do rather well too.. and DK has a 41m class skill interrupt (stone fist).

Anyway all skills are annoying, if people kill you with it :-) Vid of tormy shows it's not an instant I-WIN button as some seem to think... but annoying nevertheless (but so would 3 ppl doing snipes / spambush / WB / ... be).

Come on...

I wrote in the thread that stonefist could work if only travel time was faster. At max range it is slow enough to leave enough time for a full RD death ray.

Additionally:

Even if you land your stonefist, you give immunity to the caster => CC option over for you, but the Templar caster can eternally recast it, with even more safety.
The other IMPORTANT point is that there is complete asymetry in skill required in the middle of the fight to roll dodge out of the two three or more guys beating you to get a clear line of sight to then be able to launch a stone fist that eventually will land 1+ sec later on the casting templar 28 meters+ away VS the casting templar just simply (dumbly ?) Jesus Beaming you.

You quoted @Tormy 's video... One of the many examples of what most templars are doing: Radiant Destructioning you form 100% health on as soon as someone else is beating you. What a boring gameplay! But I hope you recognize they were pretty terrible players with astonishing low damage. The only one not Death-Raying is a healer... So sure, you can survive 2 templars Jesus beaming while a healer is dps-ing you... Last but nor least, @Tormy succeeded to stay above 50% health due to low incoming damage, but it stills verify another one of my points: Radiant Destruction forces you to play with only half your health as melee since, as demonstrated in the video, it is almost permanently the only skill used by two of the opponents. Should he has dropped a little bit below with the beam on...

Of course trees are our friends to prevent recasts (but sadly the do not break existing channels), and @Tormy fought cleverly close to them. However the most frequent fight places (outposts, offensive sieges) have none of them.

I still maintain RD needs to be reworked with a closer range or deal damage according to range (the closer the more damage) or have execute range dropped to 25% from 50% like NB's assassin's blade.

Can't you see there is no skill involved in using Radiant Destruction, for so much damage, from so far with no price to pay ?
It's not even an ultimate, does Ultimate-like damage and is spammable, from 28m+ (outside of charge range for melees)... Come on !

EnOeZ · June 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Please don't take this wrong but I didn't have time to read your whole post. I may come back to it later if I remember to, but I've seen this general complaint enough times that I think I can cursorily respond to it. I'm needing to leave soon so I didn't have time to read fully. What I will say is that Templar was designed initially as a counter to DK. Between Cleansing Ritual and Eclipse, it was clear Templar was meant to dig deep into some of the biggest strengths of the DK class. DK has some nice counterplay though with Talons nullifying jabs. I was not entirely happy with the removal of Blinding Flashes to make Radiant Destruction, but I think too much is being said about it. Dragon Leap them. Interrupt them with a poison shot (morph name eludes me, but I'm not one to remember the names of every ability, I just know what they do) - if you're a stam build this should be your forte as a DK. If you're a magic build use the fire staff interrupt or simply cast efficient purge. Voila, problem solved. Efficient purge will have the added benefit of protecting your team mates as well. The skill has a counter, people are just mad that they have to use a skill to counter a skill (by the way the Templar has to do this with his cleanse or self heal, since we're speaking of Mag-Plar). In that case you can always block (Which DK's have strong passives for) or use line of sight. DK also has the best bonus Spell Resistance as well in the same block passive. If you're out in the open, tough. Templar is the least mobile class of the 4, there is a reason they gave them this skill.

Thanks for your constructive and informative response.
Cleanse could indeed be an option, a very specific one to a very specific problem.
It is also a very very soft answer

When I see how few people uses Revealing Flare also in support line versus Nightblades, an ability which is an hard counter to invisibility, I doubt we will find room for that in our bars.

However if I find a build that has room for that I will give it a try!

But I know already that even with efficient purge, It is outside of realistic for stamina players (what I am).

In fact we "Zerg Divers" ( hello @Vangy ) have to roam with a support to counter a single ability of a single class...

Again and again... Radiant Destruction is too simple, too safe, too cheap and too powerful for the skill required to use it (none).

Ok to be fair "Is my target likely to be dropped below 50% soon ?" is the skill required.
Considering most of us have 20 to 30K health in Cyrodiil, incurring a 10 to 15K burst is even in the range of some single (crit) abilities...

It is probably the highest efficiency tool in the game for the lowest skill:

no particular setup to do,
nothing to "time",
no range to close,
no special risk to take (outside of melee range),
no threat to your resource pool,
nothing...
and it is outside of retaliation range of melee characters !

RD needs to be reworked.

Didaco · June 2016

EnOeZ wrote: »

Didaco wrote: »

Have you tried slotting a bow with poison arrow?

Serious question, just to be clear.

As stated in the title "Melee DKs vs Radiant Destruction"

Bow is not melee, your position on the battlefield is not the same, the gameplay is of course a lot safer.
However I am sure that other classes (with effective burst heals, mobility and/or shields) and range weapons users are in a different boat.

The post is a no option situation for some type of players.

So here's where the problem lies.
I believe the concept behind every build is to sacrifice something to be better on another.
In Cyrodiil a solely melee build will always have its weakness exposed with all those plain fields, no LoS, etc.
You choose a build, you deal with its weaknesses. And melee will always be vulnerable to ranged, sorry.

I'm not saying RD doesn't need a tweak here and there, what I'm saying is I just can't get down in the field and yell "ok guys, I'm pure melee, now adapt to me".

EnOeZ · June 2016

Bashev wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

the meta

I'm sure you can post just as many screenshots where it's all snipes..

naah, I can reflect snipes and kill archers with their own snipes, but I can't reflect or dodge this *** cancer skill

I heard there's some thing called block, which stam DKs do rather well too.. and DK has a 41m class skill interrupt (stone fist).

Anyway all skills are annoying, if people kill you with it :-) Vid of tormy shows it's not an instant I-WIN button as some seem to think... but annoying nevertheless (but so would 3 ppl doing snipes / spambush / WB / ... be).

Radian destruction is the best counter to block. It drains your stamina in the best possible way. It ticks every half second and if you block the whole duration you will be charged for 6 blocks. The CD for block cost is 0.5 seconds. For example if I block light attack skill and bash i will be charged only once for the block. Average block cost nowadays is 1.5 k stamina per block. If I have to block a full radian destruction I need 9k stamina.

That is really interesting, thank you !

That's probably also why a beam (or five...) means death to Frontline fighters also when blocking.
=> none of the "standard" defensive techniques then work : no block, no dodge, no line of sight (except for recasts)!

Working as intended ?

Sledgemoto · June 2016

working as intended !!

EnOeZ · June 2016

Not bad @Sledgemoto

You got all 5 !!! xD
With a 25K Radiant Destruction in one single cast !
Working as intended @Wrobel ?

However, let's see what we have in our standard PVP Session...
If you are not playing a melee frontline fighter, you won't understand what it is like:

http://imgur.com/a/afIVV

Yeah... life as a melee DK vs Radiant Spammers !

I understand you, Templars abuse a powerfull skill but isn't it boring too ?

Toc de Malsvi · June 2016

I think it just needs some adjustment perhaps making the execute damage only scale from 30% and down instead of 50% and down. You can counter it but like many things in the game just because it has a counter does not mean its not perhaps a bit too powerful.