Can we have a "good guy" guild in the future?

j3crow · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

Blackbird71 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

This "kill an innocent" is a test, if the candidate is able to carry out something, what might be against his/her inner feelings about it. The Dark Brotherhood is similar to special military forces, those get an order and they carry it out, they do not question or judge the order, they carry it out, regardless how they personally think about it. That is the type of person, the Brotherhood wants to recruit and that is IMO why they let you kill an innocent person.

Afaik training to be part of special forces in real life includes as well real torture, on the giving and receiving side - they need reliable people, who can carry out orders and are loyal, no matter what, even if those are against their personal feelings - and so is the DB as well, they need assassins, who do not question an order, but carry it out. It is not that strange as it seems.

Turning off one's conscience and acting without thought or any moral considerations as to the implications of one's own actions could be construed as the very definition of evil.

Even in the military, they don't want soldiers blindly following orders, as each has the duty and responsibility to disobey any order which is illegal and/or immoral.

there is no clear definition what is moral and what is immoral - so this is nonsense.

Just image, if this would be true, what would happen on a submarine with atomic missiles on board and the order comes in, to launch them. You cannot argue with that is immoral, because it will kill millions of people and harm billions. It has to be done or the whole purpose of having these submarines in the first place would be pointless.

No actually, you're perception of the military is incorrect. Soldiers are taught from the very begining to think with a moral immperative, and not to follow what are called 'unlawful orders'. Thats not to say that wrong or even horrible things don't happen, because they do. But thats because in every human institution ever, human beings will make mistakes, moral or otherwise. And no, SOF personel are not taught to torture people. Even in the egregious circumstance of what is called 'enhanced interrogation' (which I vehemently oppose), only a small number of interrogators or contractors are trained in those techniques.

As far as a worse case scenario like a nuclear exchange goes, there are two and three man fail-safes to ensure that the context is actually occuring ("Omg, we're in a nuclear war"!!!), and to ensure that the launch order was directed by the National Command Authority.

I don't know who or what happened to you to put this emotional chip on your shoulder, but I am sorry it happened. I mean that sincerely. I'm not being sarcastic. I can empathise.. really. But people are not entire institutions, or their histories, and vice versa. You're never going to make peace with who or whatever it was by labeling everyone who has a similar association as a "them', just so you can villify them to feel better about yourself. But more importantly, that path will never work. You ultimately won't feel better about yourself. You'll just feel worse about everyone and everything else. I offer these observations not to be mean, but to actually offer a different path.

But your logic through out this entire dialogue has been contrived. You hold yourself to one set of logical standards, and then hold everybody else to another. You cherry pick both your data, and your history and then you respond with a complete lack of empathy for others, and the things they might be sensitive about, themselves. You act as if everyone participating in this forum is an NPC. Well, they're not. Granted internet bravado seems to be the rule of the day for our popular culture, and you're actions are not islolated. But you've consistently tried to insert your 'counter relgion/establishment' agenda where ever you could. Again, in a disregard for the totality of actual history. Nevermind the fact that, that is against the rules of these forums.

If you want to continue to proffer a "down with the Man" message than by all means, please do so. There are plenty of outlets for that on and offline. But these forums are not the place for it. Please don't constantly villify entire cultures and institutions due to your anger, about whatever it is you're actually angry about. If you need help, than seek it. And I really mean that too.

If you want to truly talk about fictional factions in the video game that we love, with its imaginary setting, than this is the place for that.

Osteos · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

No, because this is on topic - I am strongly against a "good guy" guild, because in that guild will gather people, who think, that they are morally superior, while in fact they will create a guild which worships bigotry, what is inherently bad. There is no such thing as a "good guy" IMO, and to have a "good guy" guild is bringing out the worst in people, who feel morally superior.

Lysette,its just a game,and most people wont even be thinking about this stuff you mention.Most people are just into good gameplay,not real world morals,sweety.Remember?
Besides,if someone in real life,behind their monitors,feels superior,it shouldnt bother anyone.No one can see them.Unless they get rude in chat.If they do,ignore them.

I did not bring this up - but I am highly allergic against people, who claim to have superior morals and want to force them on others or make them feel bad about how they enjoy this game - to me this is about bigotry, which goes with this notion of superior morals - while in fact, they are not any better. Unfortunately my arguments were censored, so I cannot talk about it anymore in a way, in which I would want to uncover these things - forum rules are against it and I have been warned.

See, when they talk of a "good guy" guild, this implies, that they think, those guilds I like are "bad guy" guilds - and I feel offended. I think that alone saying "good guy" guild, as opposed to those, in which I am a member, is an insult against me and those who enjoy these guilds and possibly even against ZOS for having made this content - that is bigotry, and I do not like that at all.

So you are offended because if people want good guy guilds, then the current guilds are bad guy guilds and you enjoy said bad guy guilds so you infer that people think you are bad.

That's on you and your interpretation of what people are saying and not what they are actually saying. Some people like to play assassins and some people like to play knights in shining armor. Neither is better or right for this game, its what you enjoy. If you don't want to be a thief or assassin then you can chose to not do the DB or TG quests. Its a personal choice.

Right now in ESO there aren't any knightly type guilds for people to chose or not chose to do. I agree with others that they would be a welcome addition to the game and just like the other dlcs you would have the choice to not do them.

Nyx2 · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

Nirn is just not earth - and earthly morals have no place in Nirn. Nirn is a place, where it is perfectly fine, to murder people as long as you can pay the fine to the guards - then they let you go, all good. If you can't pay the fine, guards will try to kill you. So this is how this is done on Nirn, Nirn's moral - real world morals have no relevance on Nirn.

Yeah, it's not because a realistic punishment would render the character obsolete. That's also why you can steal a merchants beloved necklace and sell it right back to him. It's not due to game mechanics or because it's meant to be a fun game no, people on Nirn are just too damn stupid to recognize their own stuff.

The dark brotherhood is bad. Taking an innocent life is bad, period. Why are you looking for some sort of excuse to consider them "neutral" or whatever? It's a game so for the sake of enjoying all the content there is, you can be evil without having to justify yourself and without even caring.

Moral and justice aren't some abstract ideas. Their path is always available. If someone chooses the wrong path despite meaning well is a different matter. Which for the game also means it doesn't matter if the guild is truly good as long as people recognize them as such. Honestly you're making this way too complex for no good reason.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

No, because this is on topic - I am strongly against a "good guy" guild, because in that guild will gather people, who think, that they are morally superior, while in fact they will create a guild which worships bigotry, what is inherently bad. There is no such thing as a "good guy" IMO, and to have a "good guy" guild is bringing out the worst in people, who feel morally superior.

This is why I want the absolute opposite, where *** like me can sit together, and talk of how we could ruin the world in the best way. XD

Wow, that too now is censored?
Gee...

bedlom · June 2016

The got lucky (even though you can't see it)
The good guy guilds have been in the game since day one.

Blackbird71 · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

No, because this is on topic - I am strongly against a "good guy" guild, because in that guild will gather people, who think, that they are morally superior, while in fact they will create a guild which worships bigotry, what is inherently bad. There is no such thing as a "good guy" IMO, and to have a "good guy" guild is bringing out the worst in people, who feel morally superior.

Lysette,its just a game,and most people wont even be thinking about this stuff you mention.Most people are just into good gameplay,not real world morals,sweety.Remember?
Besides,if someone in real life,behind their monitors,feels superior,it shouldnt bother anyone.No one can see them.Unless they get rude in chat.If they do,ignore them.

I did not bring this up - but I am highly allergic against people, who claim to have superior morals and want to force them on others or make them feel bad about how they enjoy this game - to me this is about bigotry, which goes with this notion of superior morals - while in fact, they are not any better. Unfortunately my arguments were censored, so I cannot talk about it anymore in a way, in which I would want to uncover these things - forum rules are against it and I have been warned.

See, when they talk of a "good guy" guild, this implies, that they think, those guilds I like are "bad guy" guilds - and I feel offended. I think that alone saying "good guy" guild, as opposed to those, in which I am a member, is an insult against me and those who enjoy these guilds and possibly even against ZOS for having made this content - that is bigotry, and I do not like that at all.

Really? You're going to claim a medical condition (allergies) causing an adverse physical reaction to people with a different view than you? Seriously?

And where did anyone ever say they wanted to force anyone to "feel bad" about how they play the game? How does having various, legitimate role-play options force anyone to feel anything? And even if that were the goal, how can anyone force anyone else to feel bad about anything? How can you speak for what anyone else will choose to feel? Unless you are saying that you personally will feel bad if "good" options are presented? Even if so, no one is forcing you to feel that way; that's something you do on your own. How others choose play is their business, and how you choose to react to it is yours; I'd suggest you keep to your own business and leave others to theirs.

I've read this entire thread, including every one of your posts, and honestly it's nothing I haven't heard before. Every time it comes down to the same thing; someone trying to argue the inexistence of morality in an effort to assuage their own guilt, and to self-rationalize their actions so that they can justify doing whatever they want and pretend that it doesn't matter because "there is no right or wrong". Of course, these people are never satisfied with just convincing themselves, because as long as someone else believes that there is right and wrong, that threatens their ability to rationalize themselves.

The fact is that on some very basic level, most people have an innate sense of what is right and what is wrong; the degree to which each individual may or may not pay attention to or follow this sense of course varies greatly. Just about every culture has some explanation for this sense, and a word or phrase to describe it. Call it a conscience or whatever you choose; for most people it is there.

There are of course some who willfully suppress this sense, and in doing so constantly they can eventually reach a point where they lose this sense entirely. There also seem to be some (I say "seem", as there is no definitive way to prove it) who are born completely without this sense, and have never had it. People of both these types, those without a sense of right and wrong as well as those who suppress their sense into inexistence, are more commonly referred to as "sociopaths".

So if you're going to come here and preach your own moral view (yes, a belief in amorality is still an opinion on morals, therefore a moral view), and use that view to try to impose your own will on others, all the while claiming it is because you don't want anyone to impose their moral views on anyone else, you really shouldn't be surprised to be called out on your hypocrisy. Nor should you expect others to agree with you. For most of us, there is right and wrong, and repeatedly telling us (or yourself) otherwise is not going to convince us otherwise.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

I did not bring this up - but I am highly allergic against people, who claim to have superior morals and want to force them on others or make them feel bad about how they enjoy this game - to me this is about bigotry, which goes with this notion of superior morals - while in fact, they are not any better. Unfortunately my arguments were censored, so I cannot talk about it anymore in a way, in which I would want to uncover these things - forum rules are against it and I have been warned.

See, when they talk of a "good guy" guild, this implies, that they think, those guilds I like are "bad guy" guilds - and I feel offended. I think that alone saying "good guy" guild, as opposed to those, in which I am a member, is an insult against me and those who enjoy these guilds and possibly even against ZOS for having made this content - that is bigotry, and I do not like that at all.

Why on Tamriel you think I asked for a pure evil DLC?
I'm fed up with the morals in this game, they do not suit me, and all the goodie-goodies had their way, time for a change. XD