Can we have a "good guy" guild in the future?

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2016

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

@dodgehopper_ESO we were addressing evil, or rather the lack thereof, in this game, please stay on topic. XD

(JK here, brother)

:P

catalyst10e · June 2016

We kinda have a rare opportunity to introduce the Order of the Lamp. The knights who protected the mage's guild. Not much work would need to be done really to add them in, they could use the same guild hall locations as the mage's guild, and just add in a couple more NPCs to push the quest along. It could follow the actual building and recruiting of the knights, followed by hunting down worm cultists. There isnt a whole lot of lore on the knights so ZOS would have plenty of wiggle room to write in their own lore, and if they were willing to finally add in some new skills, it could be a nice skill line that splits Stamina and Magicka evenly to make up for any missing abilities within stamina and magicka builds. It's not limited to a specific region, and it was made by Vanus himself so it all fits.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · June 2016

Bleh, more goodie-goodie...

I_killed_Vivec · June 2016

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

So it wouldn't be abused because people would take extra care so as to not annoy others... thus the DB is "good".

But inevitably when there are more people they would annoy each other and so the DB could be used for population control.

So people would be polite so that nobody used the DB against them except that they would use the DB because there might be too many people.

...erm.... No.

The DB aren't good, except by the most warped definition: "To do evil in an attempt to stave off a possible, and possibly greater, future evil". Quite quite extraordinary.

You do seem to be attempting to employ that definition with aplomb though. Nice work.

And you do seem to want to look at the black side of it all.The ES games werent all black and white.Never have been,never will.So what might seem evil isnt always evil.In every game,things are rather muddy,and sometimes unclear as to who is the bad guy and who is the good guy.They give you choices to respond,letting you know that what you say or do will change the outcome. You may take one response,and after you have,what occurs makes you realize things have gone wrong,but you cant take it back.Unless you dump the quest and begin again.

You do seem to want to make someone feel bad by adding"nice work".
Nice work.

Who's asking for all black or all white? Nobody. I posted in this very thread about the need for options with regard to the Main Quest in DLCs. As you want to talk about the previous games, let's look at the main quests from previous games and expansions that I have personally played:
Dagoth Ur in Morrowind

Almalexia in Tribunal

Hircine in Bloodmoon

Mehrunes Dagon in Oblivion

Umaril in Knights of the Nine

Alduin in Skyrim

Molag Bal in ESO

How many of the Main Quests associated with the above would you consider as not having a "good" option to pursue?

My problem with the posts by @Lysette isn't that I disagree that there isn't a degree of moral relativism in this game. I've had to make some hard choices in this game, and I actually count those as some of the more meaningful moments. My issue is that they seem to be arguing that we don't need a "good" guild on the basis that the DB are already a "good" guild and so we don't need another. This argument is being carried out the basis of circular and self-contradictory logic based on a comparison with the atrocities caused by real-world religions. I believe that this argument only serves to detract from the discussion, rather than add to it.

My "Nice work" wasn't actually sarcastic. Anyone who can hold only a thread of logic like that for this long really does deserve some recognition. That was actual kudos. I've seen some people play devil's advocate, but unless someone's heart is really in it they tend to give up after a while. @Lysette really seems to believe in the point they are making. Hence, nice work.

Interesting to see that you want to make me feel bad though.

Please, by all means, where?
I must have missed them...
Nowhere in the game is an evil option, oh sure, you could ignore someone's life somewhere in some quest, like that fella in the dungeon, who's sister is looking for him, but that's not evil.
Come on man...

I haven't seen a single evil option anywhere.

Really?

Then you haven't done the Wrothgar main quest. There are many random acts of evil, as an example...

At one point you have to get information from a mage who had been forced to join the Vosh Rakh. You find him standing on some battlements with his back to you. Even before you question him you have the option to push him off. When he's told you he wants nothing to do with the Vosh Rakh and lets you know how to get into the prison, you still have the option to push him off! He's innocent, he's unarmed, he's just helped you.... but you can still choose to kill him? That's evil in my book.

Poor lad screams in disbelief as he falls...

Admittedly you can't choose to side with Moley and assist in the planemeld, but then he'd probably laugh at your offer of help...

Volkodav · June 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

What about the blades? I mean, they obviously wouldn't be searching for the dragon born this time around lol, but maybe they could do something useful with themselves. Were they around during this era?

Blades were the emperor's guards - without an emperor, questionable.

The Blades were the Emperor's personal guard but they were of course more than that. They were also imperial spies, keepers of dragon lore, protectors of the faith, etc etc. The original Blades were also there to help fight against Alduin and bring about the end of dragon rule.

Yes,they were all of this.Not just guards for an Imperial Emperor.

The more I think about it, the more I think the Blades could make for a great heroic knightly order for players to join. There could even be some infighting as different members seek to crown a different Emperor. Without having a Dragon-Blooded Emperor on the throne though, it seems to me that their role of protectors of the people would really come into play. The atrocity that Mannimarco created and the affront to their order that Clivia represents is just fuel to the fire for a group like this. The great thing is they would be mostly unsuccessful in their dealings, constantly stemming back the tide of daedra incursions until stability returns with Tiber. This is actually a fantastic group we could join.

Another great possibility would be a stendarr-serving Order, as Stendar goes hand in hand here, being about justice, order, defending the weak, and protection of the Empire. They are all about civility, civilization, and have a great disdain for Daedra.

If it were me I'd use one or both of these two Orders to give players something Knightly or Priestly to join.

Here's a twist of an idea.Have the Blades work to destroy the Dark Brotherhood. With one character,you have to pick which you want to join. You get the quests through the Fighter's Guild,to join The elite Blades.An underground force for good?

danno8 · June 2016

DB is evil.

To get an invite you have to "Kill an innocent". That's the requirements to be a part of the gang.

How is that not evil?

Clerics1985 · June 2016

You know what would have given you that Warm Fuzzy "good Guy" feeling?

PvP justice System But hey that's Under the bridge now, as my Boys the Peppers would say.

Ritzey01 · June 2016

I like the Bards Guild idea!! heres my +1

Xylphan · June 2016

danno8 wrote: »

DB is evil.

To get an invite you have to "Kill an innocent". That's the requirements to be a part of the gang.

How is that not evil?

Depends. If the guild has some vague future knowledge that someone in a particular area will give rise to an evil so great that it makes Malog Bal look like a rainbow butterfly unicorn kitty but they only know the general location not the exact person, would their mission ultimately be for good?

They don't speak with the Night Mother. They listen. It's like the (bad) movie Wanted where a special loom creates weaves which are read and interpreted for assassinations. The organization does not make or pass judgement. The organization does not fight for good or evil. They just do as instructed.

Lysette · June 2016

This "kill an innocent" is a test, if the candidate is able to carry out something, what might be against his/her inner feelings about it. The Dark Brotherhood is similar to special military forces, those get an order and they carry it out, they do not question or judge the order, they carry it out, regardless how they personally think about it. That is the type of person, the Brotherhood wants to recruit and that is IMO why they let you kill an innocent person.

Afaik training to be part of special forces in real life includes as well real torture, on the giving and receiving side - they need reliable people, who can carry out orders and are loyal, no matter what, even if those are against their personal feelings - and so is the DB as well, they need assassins, who do not question an order, but carry it out. It is not that strange as it seems.

Teridaxus · June 2016

Could you guys just open an own thread to discuss if the dark brotherhood is evil or good...

Lysette · June 2016

No, because this is on topic - I am strongly against a "good guy" guild, because in that guild will gather people, who think, that they are morally superior, while in fact they will create a guild which worships bigotry, what is inherently bad. There is no such thing as a "good guy" IMO, and to have a "good guy" guild is bringing out the worst in people, who feel morally superior.

Tomg999 · June 2016

It would be cool to have a Guild of do-gooders, like Paladins or something.

Be like Kwai Chang Caine on Kung Fu: walk the world, doing good and helping out those that can not fend for them selves...and kicking butt.

Blackbird71 · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

This "kill an innocent" is a test, if the candidate is able to carry out something, what might be against his/her inner feelings about it. The Dark Brotherhood is similar to special military forces, those get an order and they carry it out, they do not question or judge the order, they carry it out, regardless how they personally think about it. That is the type of person, the Brotherhood wants to recruit and that is IMO why they let you kill an innocent person.

Afaik training to be part of special forces in real life includes as well real torture, on the giving and receiving side - they need reliable people, who can carry out orders and are loyal, no matter what, even if those are against their personal feelings - and so is the DB as well, they need assassins, who do not question an order, but carry it out. It is not that strange as it seems.

Turning off one's conscience and acting without thought or any moral considerations as to the implications of one's own actions could be construed as the very definition of evil.

Even in the military, they don't want soldiers blindly following orders, as each has the duty and responsibility to disobey any order which is illegal and/or immoral.

ShedsHisTail · June 2016

I'd like to see racially specific Guilds.
Organizations you can only join if you happen to be of the appropriate race.

The Skill lines would expand on the existing racial passives; not necessarily in mechanics, but in theme. It' be a nightmare to balance, I know, but anything that helps build on character identity is a big plus in my book.

AshTal · June 2016

Have not read it all but I so agree with the OP. Thieves was the lesser of two evils but still bad, now I have to play a psychotic killer with no intelligence and no style to get the content I pay for.

I want to play a mercenary or a scholar, sounds good we have mages and fighters. Oh no they have no repeatable quests, very small story arcs and have no interesting mechanics and rather bland pointless stories.

Please can we have an addition to mage and fighters guilds along with a "good" guild or at least a not insanely evil one.

ShedsHisTail · June 2016

AshTal wrote: »

Have not read it all but I so agree with the OP. Thieves was the lesser of two evils but still bad, now I have to play a psychotic killer with no intelligence and no style to get the content I pay for.

I want to play a mercenary or a scholar, sounds good we have mages and fighters. Oh no they have no repeatable quests, very small story arcs and have no interesting mechanics and rather bland pointless stories.

Please can we have an addition to mage and fighters guilds along with a "good" guild or at least a not insanely evil one.

I dunno, I thought the story arcs for both the Fighter's and Mages guild were pretty good... And I think they might actually be longer than the others. Maybe that's just because it took me 45 levels to finish?

However, I do agree they could use some fleshing out. Add some daily quests, side missions, etc.

Zerok · June 2016

Blackbird71 · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

No, because this is on topic - I am strongly against a "good guy" guild, because in that guild will gather people, who think, that they are morally superior, while in fact they will create a guild which worships bigotry, what is inherently bad. There is no such thing as a "good guy" IMO, and to have a "good guy" guild is bringing out the worst in people, who feel morally superior.

Yet you have no problem preaching your own brand of "moral superiority". By claiming that there is no good or evil, and that you recognize this while others do not, and continually trying to convince others of how wrong they are in this view, and wanting to impose your view over theirs by arguing that their view should not be taken into consideration, you are directly claiming superiority over others in their moral views.

Even still, others are simply asking for a fictional "good" guild to play in a fantasy game, a genre which typically explores the ideas and implications of good and evil. Your supposed moral superiority is clearly a real-life issue, making the hypocrisy that much more egregious.

It's a game, one in which people take on different roles. Give them options and let them play the role they choose. Why they choose it is really none of your business.

Nyx2 · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

No, because this is on topic - I am strongly against a "good guy" guild, because in that guild will gather people, who think, that they are morally superior, while in fact they will create a guild which worships bigotry, what is inherently bad. There is no such thing as a "good guy" IMO, and to have a "good guy" guild is bringing out the worst in people, who feel morally superior.

Having good morals makes you bad? There is good and evil just like there is right and wrong. I don't know what you're trying to twist around here but it's not making any sense.

Luigi_Vampa · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

No, because this is on topic - I am strongly against a "good guy" guild, because in that guild will gather people, who think, that they are morally superior, while in fact they will create a guild which worships bigotry, what is inherently bad. There is no such thing as a "good guy" IMO, and to have a "good guy" guild is bringing out the worst in people, who feel morally superior.

You know this is just a game, right? We aren't talking about a real group of people. Some people just want to play as honorable knights or divine priests. We don't really need to talk about implications of bigotry and moral superiority bringing out the worst in people because they are a fictonal group of people. They will have no more bigotry or moral supremecy than they are programmed to have because they are NOT REAL.

I guess all I can ask is why are you against a DLC that lets you join priestly orders of the Eight Divines? How could this possibly harm you if people can quest as Holy Knights, or Warrior Priests?

Don't give me this nonsense about they are bigots, and there is no true good, blah, blah, blah. If you believe that Priest of Mara is really more evil than an assassin that revels in bloodshed, then great, but there is no reason why everyone has to share your viewpoint. Just call them delusional and go on your way. This is a video game and if they want to roleplay a Knight of the Eight Divines they should be able to do so without suffering your judgments.

CossackHD · June 2016

I'm totally for Companions. Just those 2 Nordic zones aren't enough...

And where's "destroy the dark brotherhood" quest like in Skyrim? I'm OK with Dark Brotherhood content and assassinations, but why do I have to praise Sithis? Awesome assassins don't have to be members in some sort of satanic sect...

bedlom · June 2016

College of winterhold.

mlstevens42_ESO · June 2016

None of the guilds we have are good and most probably any new guild would be morally gray what ever their good intentions are. This is because people are people and often self interest among other things bring what might have been seen as a ethical moral idea it ends up warped. We are after all blessed/cursed with free will.

Some of these organizations for example mentioned from previous tes games. They are not nor were they ever good in the true sense of the word.

The companions even without the leaders being cursed with lycanthropy sent you out to beat people up upon occasion. To bully people into doing what they the companions had been told these individuals needed to do or not do so they the companions would be paid. This in my opinion is not really any different they the thieves strongarming people into paying protection money. The college of Winterhold was no better. All of the guilds were fairly ambigious morally and ethically and guess what they always have been. Even the knightly orders from Daggerfall had you kidnapping children to give to witches....and in this way you would get information on where to get artifacts. The assassins guilds db and or morag tong have always been seen as at best a necessary evil. Certainly in morrowind this was true for the tong as it prevents all out house wars between the five main houses.

Volkodav · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

No, because this is on topic - I am strongly against a "good guy" guild, because in that guild will gather people, who think, that they are morally superior, while in fact they will create a guild which worships bigotry, what is inherently bad. There is no such thing as a "good guy" IMO, and to have a "good guy" guild is bringing out the worst in people, who feel morally superior.

Lysette,its just a game,and most people wont even be thinking about this stuff you mention.Most people are just into good gameplay,not real world morals,sweety.Remember?
Besides,if someone in real life,behind their monitors,feels superior,it shouldnt bother anyone.No one can see them.Unless they get rude in chat.If they do,ignore them.

Lysette · June 2016

Blackbird71 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

This "kill an innocent" is a test, if the candidate is able to carry out something, what might be against his/her inner feelings about it. The Dark Brotherhood is similar to special military forces, those get an order and they carry it out, they do not question or judge the order, they carry it out, regardless how they personally think about it. That is the type of person, the Brotherhood wants to recruit and that is IMO why they let you kill an innocent person.

Afaik training to be part of special forces in real life includes as well real torture, on the giving and receiving side - they need reliable people, who can carry out orders and are loyal, no matter what, even if those are against their personal feelings - and so is the DB as well, they need assassins, who do not question an order, but carry it out. It is not that strange as it seems.

Turning off one's conscience and acting without thought or any moral considerations as to the implications of one's own actions could be construed as the very definition of evil.

Even in the military, they don't want soldiers blindly following orders, as each has the duty and responsibility to disobey any order which is illegal and/or immoral.

there is no clear definition what is moral and what is immoral - so this is nonsense.

Just image, if this would be true, what would happen on a submarine with atomic missiles on board and the order comes in, to launch them. You cannot argue with that is immoral, because it will kill millions of people and harm billions. It has to be done or the whole purpose of having these submarines in the first place would be pointless.

Lysette · June 2016

Volkodav wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

No, because this is on topic - I am strongly against a "good guy" guild, because in that guild will gather people, who think, that they are morally superior, while in fact they will create a guild which worships bigotry, what is inherently bad. There is no such thing as a "good guy" IMO, and to have a "good guy" guild is bringing out the worst in people, who feel morally superior.

Lysette,its just a game,and most people wont even be thinking about this stuff you mention.Most people are just into good gameplay,not real world morals,sweety.Remember?
Besides,if someone in real life,behind their monitors,feels superior,it shouldnt bother anyone.No one can see them.Unless they get rude in chat.If they do,ignore them.

I did not bring this up - but I am highly allergic against people, who claim to have superior morals and want to force them on others or make them feel bad about how they enjoy this game - to me this is about bigotry, which goes with this notion of superior morals - while in fact, they are not any better. Unfortunately my arguments were censored, so I cannot talk about it anymore in a way, in which I would want to uncover these things - forum rules are against it and I have been warned.

See, when they talk of a "good guy" guild, this implies, that they think, those guilds I like are "bad guy" guilds - and I feel offended. I think that alone saying "good guy" guild, as opposed to those, in which I am a member, is an insult against me and those who enjoy these guilds and possibly even against ZOS for having made this content - that is bigotry, and I do not like that at all.

Volkodav · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

No, because this is on topic - I am strongly against a "good guy" guild, because in that guild will gather people, who think, that they are morally superior, while in fact they will create a guild which worships bigotry, what is inherently bad. There is no such thing as a "good guy" IMO, and to have a "good guy" guild is bringing out the worst in people, who feel morally superior.

Lysette,its just a game,and most people wont even be thinking about this stuff you mention.Most people are just into good gameplay,not real world morals,sweety.Remember?
Besides,if someone in real life,behind their monitors,feels superior,it shouldnt bother anyone.No one can see them.Unless they get rude in chat.If they do,ignore them.

I did not bring this up - but I am highly allergic against people, who claim to have superior morals and want to force them on others or make them feel bad about how they enjoy this game - to me this is about bigotry, which goes with this notion of superior morals - while in fact, they are not any better. Unfortunately my arguments were censored, so I cannot talk about it anymore in a way, in which I would want to uncover these things - forum rules are against it and I have been warned.

See, when they talk of a "good guy" guild, this implies, that they think, those guilds I like are "bad guy" guilds - and I feel offended. I think that alone saying "good guy" guild, as opposed to those, in which I am a member, is an insult against me and those who enjoy these guilds and possibly even against ZOS for having made this content - that is bigotry, and I do not like that at all.

I understand how you feel.I really do.I promise.I dont like those type of people either.Not at all.
I got offended about a thread once,and got a 3 day ban.
However,as I said,it's a game,not to be taken seriously.You tend to get rather upset over things that have no bearing on real life issues.Things that are just things to do ingame.People here arent into the real world.(not pointing fingers at all)
They want to talk about ingame issues,things to add that would be fun,or problesm with the game.
I wasnt being rude to you.I was just reminding you not to get upset.Let it ride.

Lysette · June 2016

Nirn is just not earth - and earthly morals have no place in Nirn. Nirn is a place, where it is perfectly fine, to murder people as long as you can pay the fine to the guards - then they let you go, all good. If you can't pay the fine, guards will try to kill you. So this is how this is done on Nirn, Nirn's moral - real world morals have no relevance on Nirn.

Volkodav · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

Nirn is just not earth - and earthly morals have no place in Nirn. Nirn is a place, where it is perfectly fine, to murder people as long as you can pay the fine to the guards - then they let you go, all good. If you can't pay the fine, guards will try to kill you. So this is how this is done on Nirn, Nirn's moral - real world morals have no relevance on Nirn.

Lysette,..c'mon.