Lore question: Why are there Khajiit in King Emeric's Lion Guard at the Hall of Heroes? (DC)

Blud · January 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

My conjecture is that these Khajiit are simply mercenaries who showed superior skill and loyalty, perhaps even before the three faction war. They became part of Emeric's elite guard and were loyal. It could very well be as simple as that. There's no reason to assume that Khajiit can only make friends with female elf queens.

Of course, this is possible. It just seems strange that they are only in this one region with no settlement anywhere in DC (that I have seen, at least).

SirAndy · January 2016

Blud wrote: »

Why are there Khajiit in King Emeric's Lion Guard

One word: mane

UrQuan · January 2016

Blud wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

My conjecture is that these Khajiit are simply mercenaries who showed superior skill and loyalty, perhaps even before the three faction war. They became part of Emeric's elite guard and were loyal. It could very well be as simple as that. There's no reason to assume that Khajiit can only make friends with female elf queens.

Of course, this is possible. It just seems strange that they are only in this one region with no settlement anywhere in DC (that I have seen, at least).

In every Elder Scrolls game there have always been examples of all races living in each province, whether there are settlements in that province dominated by that race or not.

CaptainObvious · January 2016

Clearly he is the Mascot for the Lion Guard. Just think of the cost savings on costumes. Mascot suits can be expensive, especially when they need to be combat rated.

TheShadowScout · January 2016

I am reminded of how some important people in times past enjoyed showing off their wealth and power by having "exotic" servants, guards, concubines.
I always assumed it mght be something of the like... the "lion guard" thing aside, Emric showing off his influence by having guards from a far off land, and all the other breton nobles envying him for showing off such "exclusive" retinue...

Blud · January 2016

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I am reminded of how some important people in times past enjoyed showing off their wealth and power by having "exotic" servants, guards, concubines.
I always assumed it mght be something of the like... the "lion guard" thing aside, Emric showing off his influence by having guards from a far off land, and all the other breton nobles envying him for showing off such "exclusive" retinue...

It still happens today. I've seen it although we might not call them "servants, guards, concubines," they will still be in the retinues somewhere: tutors, consultants, doctors, etc.

As to the Khajiit in the Lion Guard, I just want to remind everyone, they were only spotted in this one location in Bangkorai. You won't see them at any of the other castles although earlier in the quest line Emeric said he brought the Lion Guard with him. So they are regular Lion Guard, but we don't see them anywhere else. It's a weird anomaly.

Usara · January 2016

elias.stormneb18_ESO wrote: »

Usara wrote: »

ulrik.igerupb16_ESO wrote: »

There are plenty Khajiit living allover the Covenant.

Not in the Guard.

I guess it's an oversight, probably because lots of guards are randomly generated (i.e. like the guards in Orsinium. Aren't they supposed to be all orcs ? Nope, they are not. Pay attention, listen to them.... the helmet can't fool us )

They are NOT randomly generated. I have checked this several times, only appearance is random not Race. Also, how many Orsimer do you think want to be Guards? It's not a very "Honourable" job (at least not to the Orcs). Therefore most Orsinium Guards are Bretons and Nords living in Wrothgar.

Is it stated somewhere in the lore ? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm asking, but I do not recall anything suggesting Orsimmer find being a guard degrading.
Even though part of the Covenant, we can't deny there is still much mistrust for strangers in Whrothgar (plenty of quests shows other races are seen as outsiders, and the orsimmer-khajiit is seen as a bit of an exception to have been fully accepted) and especially the Bretons.
And they are Orsinium Guards, in full Ancient-Orc armor style. Not Covenant Guards.
Even though your explanation could work, I see it more as a justification to explain an oversight

UrQuan wrote: »

Usara wrote: »

ulrik.igerupb16_ESO wrote: »

There are plenty Khajiit living allover the Covenant.

Not in the Guard.

According to you. There's nothing in the lore to suggest there wouldn't be any Khajiit in the Lion Guard.

I did not clarify, as I meant in the Lion Guard as it is seen in the game. This precise quest is the only location where we see khajiit in the Lion Guard, and a lot of them even.
I am lazy, so I haven't run the numbers (even though a few people did mention numbers, I am too lazy to add them), but it looks like 98% of the Lion Guard is issued of the Covenant races.
Lorewise, I agree nothing suggests that Khajiits can not join though.

I think we all forgot to mention the Rift Public Dungeon, Lion's Den (sorry if anyone did before, I must have missed it). It's actually filled with the Lion Guard.
They are all Bretons.

ShadowscaleSithis · April 2016

Because this one will kill you and not care
No matter if someone thinks I should not be there

HAHA

morahku · May 2016

Wellllllll..... I also noticed this thing. Here's my two sense.

Any Lore you read says that the Senche are related to the Khajiit, and looking at some of the crown stores, for Lion mounts and pets, it's a thing, too. It's seemingly ironic that you'd see a Khajiit in the Lion Guard of the Daggerfall Covenant. I know you're not looking for opinions, however... I think it would make a lot of sense for a Khajiit to support the Daggerfall Covenant, afterall, their banner is a Senche-Lion, ancestral through Lore to the Khajiit.

If you've gotten into the Aldmeri Dominon storyline at all,

Many of the Khajiit are not very happy with their place in the treaty, which is the youngest of pacts made for the Great War, and eventually meets its end. Midway through it begins to hint at the eventual separation. It's a pact forged out of need, not necessarily want.

That being said, it's very probable that this specific Khajiit in the Lion Guard was there pre-treaty and chose to remain at duty due to very tense alliance relations.

Bonzodog01 · May 2016

There is a small community of Bandaari pedlars that hang around in the Alik'r, and It seems they may have gone out of their way to integrate with the Daggerfall Covenant. In fact, quite a lot of Bergama is full of Khajiit, and Sentinel too.

Rohamad_Ali · May 2016

The treaty with the Dominion was not accepted by all Khajiit as mentioned before . Many were tricked and some suffered forced labor by the elves . Many roamed into Alik'r and other regions to escape the loose alliance held by the Dominion and pursued their merchant professions in areas less strict .

The bottom line , Skooma and moon sugar for everyone !

Korah_Eaglecry · May 2016

Im actually a bit annoyed with all of the races intermixing the way they do in this game. Even if these races werent at war with each other Id expect Dunmer to stick with Dunmer, Altmer to stick with Altmer etc. But every city you go to there is an over abundance of races that would not be trusted within the walls if this game stayed true to the ES lore (player characters excluded). The few quests, and NPC comments do a POOR job of conveying any sort of racism and mistrust that would traditionally be there in other games. Youd think that with less than 10 years of freedom the Argonians would be far more bitter about their slavery than they seem. And the Dunmer more offput by the Argonians freedom. But you only see it occasionally.

The Alliances feel way too diverse and accepting of outside races. And the leaders, my god theyre not flawed enough. Id have liked to have seen some serious flaws from these characters. If I was High King Emeric, I wouldnt trust a Khajiit in my Lion Guard. Has no one ever heard of the the Shiite Assassins that put sleeper cell assassins in a rival Sunni Warlords Personal Guard? And were able, in a key moment when the Warlord was about to destroy the Shiite Assassins, to activate them and threaten him into taking his army away from the Assassins stronghold.

Enodoc · May 2016

morahku wrote: »

Any Lore you read says that the Senche are related to the Khajiit, and looking at some of the crown stores, for Lion mounts and pets, it's a thing, too. It's seemingly ironic that you'd see a Khajiit in the Lion Guard of the Daggerfall Covenant. I know you're not looking for opinions, however... I think it would make a lot of sense for a Khajiit to support the Daggerfall Covenant, afterall, their banner is a Senche-Lion, ancestral through Lore to the Khajiit.

The banner of the Covenant is most likely a lion, not a senche-lion.

susmitds · May 2016

Enodoc wrote: »

morahku wrote: »

Any Lore you read says that the Senche are related to the Khajiit, and looking at some of the crown stores, for Lion mounts and pets, it's a thing, too. It's seemingly ironic that you'd see a Khajiit in the Lion Guard of the Daggerfall Covenant. I know you're not looking for opinions, however... I think it would make a lot of sense for a Khajiit to support the Daggerfall Covenant, afterall, their banner is a Senche-Lion, ancestral through Lore to the Khajiit.

The banner of the Covenant is most likely a lion, not a senche-lion.

Aren't all lions a senche variant in ES lore?

Korah_Eaglecry · May 2016

susmitds wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

morahku wrote: »

Any Lore you read says that the Senche are related to the Khajiit, and looking at some of the crown stores, for Lion mounts and pets, it's a thing, too. It's seemingly ironic that you'd see a Khajiit in the Lion Guard of the Daggerfall Covenant. I know you're not looking for opinions, however... I think it would make a lot of sense for a Khajiit to support the Daggerfall Covenant, afterall, their banner is a Senche-Lion, ancestral through Lore to the Khajiit.

The banner of the Covenant is most likely a lion, not a senche-lion.

Aren't all lions a senche variant in ES lore?

From my understanding they are. I cant remember where I read it but the Sabre Cats in Skyrim are surmised to be distant relatives of the Khajiit as well.

Asherons_Call · May 2016

Because it's the lion guard! Emeric would just be lion to himself if he thought argonians should do it

Enodoc · May 2016

susmitds wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

morahku wrote: »

Any Lore you read says that the Senche are related to the Khajiit, and looking at some of the crown stores, for Lion mounts and pets, it's a thing, too. It's seemingly ironic that you'd see a Khajiit in the Lion Guard of the Daggerfall Covenant. I know you're not looking for opinions, however... I think it would make a lot of sense for a Khajiit to support the Daggerfall Covenant, afterall, their banner is a Senche-Lion, ancestral through Lore to the Khajiit.

The banner of the Covenant is most likely a lion, not a senche-lion.

Aren't all lions a senche variant in ES lore?

I don't think so; there's no reason to suppose that there was absolutely no evolution of felidae panthera in Tamriel. I am inclined to believe that Colovian and northwards "big cats" are panthera, while southern (Valenwood and Elsweyr) "big cats" are senche variants.

nimander99 · May 2016

If this game were real life the Khajit would've out bred all the other races and we would all be cat people... Think litters of kittens and ally cats and yer there.

JKorr · May 2016

I'm more puzzled by the heavy armor wearing khajiiti. There is actually an in-game book in the single player games that explains why khajiiti don't wear heavy armor, iirc.

Lynx7386 · May 2016

JKorr wrote: »

I'm more puzzled by the heavy armor wearing khajiiti. There is actually an in-game book in the single player games that explains why khajiiti don't wear heavy armor, iirc.

Yet in the arena in oblivion you fight a heavy armor 2h khajiit.

Stereotypes are never 100% accurate.

JKorr · May 2016

Lynx7386 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

I'm more puzzled by the heavy armor wearing khajiiti. There is actually an in-game book in the single player games that explains why khajiiti don't wear heavy armor, iirc.

Yet in the arena in oblivion you fight a heavy armor 2h khajiit.

Stereotypes are never 100% accurate.

True, however you would have thought they would have remembered this, and not listened to their Nord advisors a thousand years later, give or take. http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Cherim's_Heart_of_Anequina

The Heart of Anequina presents an historic battle of the Five Year War between Elsweyr and Valenwood which raged from 3E 394 (or 3E 395, depending on what one considers to be the beginning of the war) until 3E 399. In most fair accounts, the war lasted 4 years and 9 months, but artistic license from the great epic poets added an additional three months to the ordeal.

The actual details of the battle itself, as interpreted by Cherim, are explicit. The faces of a hundred and twenty Wood Elf archers can be differentiated one from the other, each registering fear at the approach of the Khajiti army. Their hauberks catch the dim light of the sun. The menacing shadows of the Elsweyr battlecats loom on the hills, every muscle strained, ready to pounce in command. It is not surprising that he got all the details right, because Cherim was in the midst of it, as a Khajiti foot soldier.

Every minute part of the Khajiti medium-weight armor can be seen in the soldiers in the foreground. The embroidered edging and striped patterns on the tunics. Each lacquered plate on loose-fitting leather in the Elsweyr style. The helmets of cloth and fluted silver.

“Cherim does not understand the point of plate mail,” said Cherim. “It is hot, for one, like being both burned and buried alive. Cherim wore it at the insistence of our Nord advisors during the Battle of Zelinin, and Cherim couldn't even turn to see what my fellow Khajiit were doing. Cherim did some sketches for a tapestry of the Battle of Zelinin, but Cherim finds that to make it realistic, the figures came out very mechanical, like iron golems or dwemer centurions. Knowing our Khajiti commanders, Cherim would not be surprised if giving up the heavy plate was more aesthetic than practical.”

“Elsweyr lost the Battle of Zelinin, didn't she?”

“Yes, but Elsweyr won the war, starting at the next battle, the Heart of Anequina,” said Cherim with a smile. “The tide turned as soon as we Khajiit sent our Nordic advisors back to Solitude. We had to get rid of all the heavy armor they brought to us and find enough traditional mediumarmor our troops felt comfortable wearing. Obviously, the principle advantage of the medium armor was that we could move easily in it, as you can see from the natural stances of the soldiers in the tapestry.

“Now if you look at this poor perforated Cathay-raht who just keeps battling on in the bottom background, you see the other advantage. It seems strange to say, but one of the best features of medium armor is that an arrow will either deflect completely or pass all the way through. An arrow head is like a hook, made to stick where it strikes if it doesn't pass through. A soldier in medium armor will find himself with a hole in his body and the bolt on the other side. Our healers can fix such a wound easily if it isn't fatal, but if the arrow still remains in the armor, as it does with heavier armor, the wound will be reopened every time the fellow moves. Unless the Khajiit strips off the armor and pulls out the arrow, which is what we had to do at the Battle of Zelinin. A difficult and time-consuming process in the heat of battle, to say the least.”

I asked him next, “Is there a self portrait in the battle?”

“Yes,” Cherim said with another grin. “You see the small figure of the Khajiit stealing the rings off the dead Wood Elf? His back is facing you, but he has a brown and orange striped tail like Cherim's. Cherim does not say that all stereotypes about the Khajiit are fair, but Cherim must sometimes acknowledge them.”

Lynx7386 · May 2016

You're taking that book a bit out of context. The khajiiti were fighting bosmer, who relied on being nimble and using the dense forest to their advantage. There was absolutely no reason to use heavy armor in that particular situation, nor is there in most situations the khajiit find themselves in. They're from a hot, arid part of tamriel with a lot of open land, and speed/maneuverability is far more important in that environment than heavy plate.

A big part of the 'khajiit always wear leather/medium armor' stereotype also comes from the fact that so many khajiit encountered outside of elsweyr are cutpurses, thieves, and brigands, which typically rely a great deal on speed and stealthiness: characteristics not exactly embodied by plate armor.

There are other lore references to khajiit wearing heavier armor, most notably the cathay-raht (large bipeds) and senche-raht (large quadrupeds). Cathay-raht were practically giants among the khajiit, standing at 8 or 9 feet tall and very muscular and stout - they make some of the best warriors the khajiit field, and often wield much heavier weapons and armor than other khajiit do. Your typical khajiit is lithe and thin, and is more well protected by speed than by plate, whereas the cathay-raht had more than enough strength and muscle mass to fight comfortably in plate armor.
Similarly, senche-raht were the largest quadrupeds of the khajiit, standing taller than an altmer and capable of carrying even the giant cathay-raht into battle as steeds. They, too, were very stout and strong, and thus were mostly unencumbered by heavier armor.

JKorr · May 2016

Yep. And I'd have no problem if the khajiiti in the game weren't the same normal cathay/suthay that we've seen before. Heck, most of the heavy armor khajiiti my character was was fighting were shorter than my female Nord.

Yes, I know. Artistic license and what the game can show. I would love to see the other kinds of khajiit, even the ones that look like bosmer. A true to the description senche-raht and pamar-raht would be fantastic. Or even a normal senche; according to the description, they should look more like a quadruped gorilla than a big cat.

ArchMikem · May 2016

It wouldn't be impossible, just uncommon. Besides, your species doesn't determine where your loyalty lies. If my Khajiit was for some reason raised in, or had been living in Skyrim then she'd most likely see things on the side of King Jorunn. On the other hand if she had parents that were merchants in Daggerfall then she'd be sympathetic to King Emeric.

It all depends on the Who, and the Where, not the What.

Blud · June 2016

Thank you all for the discussion and ideas so far.

I am absolutely open to the idea that various races could live and even serve in the different alliances. That seems more plausible than racial exclusivity to me.

However, I haven't seen any Khajiit serving in the Lion Guard in any other location. In that part of the story, King Emeric brought the Lion Guard with him to deal with the Imperial incursion. There were not stationed there. They guard the king.

So thus far, I find no answer based in any of the lore or story revealed so far in ESO.

Taleof2Cities · June 2016

@Blud, this is still a great question ... only a suggestion but maybe post it in the ESO Live Thread?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/142023/eso-live-ask-us-anything#latest

They have answered lore-based questions in the past on ESO Live.

Blud · June 2016

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

@Blud, this is still a great question ... only a suggestion but maybe post it in the ESO Live Thread?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/142023/eso-live-ask-us-anything#latest

They have answered lore-based questions in the past on ESO Live.

Great suggestion! I've just posted the question there.

Nestor · June 2016

I think they are Baandari Traders who went bankrupt or got tired of the merchant life and signed up in the first place they could find.

As for being in the Lion Guard at the Hall of Heroes, there is an old saying:

Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer.

Blud · June 2016

Nestor wrote: »

I think they are Baandari Traders who went bankrupt or got tired of the merchant life and signed up in the first place they could find.

As for being in the Lion Guard at the Hall of Heroes, there is an old saying:

Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer.

I see what you're saying, but is the Lion Guard really that lax? I mean this is the King's elite personal guard. Plus, if they were in the Lion Guard, you would see them wherever the King goes, I think.

SweetTinyGew · June 2016

Maybe the Queen is a crazy-cat lady and the Khajiit are his personal pets.