Buying You Out!!! A plea to the community.

rotaugen454 · June 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I actually have a degree in econ, for what its worth...

Yes, I'll have fries with that!

I'm a finance major myself, but that was back in the Stone Age. If anything, this might induce more people to grab mats themselves. I ended up with thousands of what were then VR16 mats from that after seeing what people were trying to sell them for. Got the Grand Master Harvester achievement while doing it.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · June 2016

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Frawr wrote: »

Supply and demand. People won't pay if the price is too high for them.

^This.

The price for those flowers has not increased due to small numbers of people advertising to "buy you out" in zone chat. Those prices increased because of increased demand for those specific flowers.

It will never be possible to corner the market on flowers because so many people keep picking them every day.

The same goes for spell power pots, enough people are willing to pay a certain amount to buy them that the average price may be slightly higher. On NA-PC however, it is certainly not 3x or 4x the price from 2 months ago.

Last night, we were getting ready for raid. We were waiting on 2 of our DPS because they couldnt find spell power pots. We were all in Teamspeak when one of them said, "WTF, the only pots I can find are 20k a stack. They are all listed by the same guy in 4 different guilds." I asked who it was, and they said the same name I had been seeing in zone for 2 months, multiple times a day. I respectfully disagree that one person can't negatively impact the market for this type of item, even if they cant corner the market entirely. It is happening.

Makkir · June 2016

@Oreyn_Bearclaw Some players find content/enjoyment out of being a millionaire in game, running businesses, and being successful in terms of making gold. Other find content in Trials, VMA, Cyrodiil, etc. Who are you to determine that playing Merchant isn't "content" or "end game" to some players? I can tell you, being successful in that realm doesn't come without sacrifice. If I want to doing well in sales, I'm probably not making the top 5% leadersboard in Cyrodiil.

ShedsHisTail · June 2016

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Frawr wrote: »

Supply and demand. People won't pay if the price is too high for them.

^This.

The price for those flowers has not increased due to small numbers of people advertising to "buy you out" in zone chat. Those prices increased because of increased demand for those specific flowers.

It will never be possible to corner the market on flowers because so many people keep picking them every day.

The same goes for spell power pots, enough people are willing to pay a certain amount to buy them that the average price may be slightly higher. On NA-PC however, it is certainly not 3x or 4x the price from 2 months ago.

The point is that those people "buying you out" are in effect reducing the available supply by buying them up in mass quantities. No, they'll never be able to eliminate said supply completely, but by purchasing from people who have large quantities in stock, they prevent those same people from putting that stock into their stores at lower prices. They don't really care about the one and twos they get (though they'll buy them) they're looking for the guy who's about to throw 1,000 Wormwood (or whatever) up on his guild store; they want his stuff. All of it.

In effect, they create an artificial scarcity which drives the prices up. Of course, this will only really be a factor or impediment to those who buy mats in bulk, because there will still be the odd guild store selling stacks of 5 or 10, But if you go looking for big stacks, you're more than likely going to end buying from the guy who just bought everyone else out and the prices will be higher than normal.

You end up paying for the convenience of not having to search half a dozen guild stores to get the mats you're after or farm it up yourself.

Or! Alternatively,,given enough time, these smaller sellers will realize that because of the actions of the buy-outers they, too, can ask more of their mats if they want; and now you've got a global price increase. Once the global price gets high enough, thanks to this artificial scarcity, the dude who bought it all up dumps his hoarded stock onto the market at significantly lower prices than the average seller and makes buckets of gold.

So, no,you're right, they can't -corner- the market because the comoditiy is not finite, nor does it require any special skills to obtain, but they can effect the economy.

zyk · June 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Last night, we were getting ready for raid. We were waiting on 2 of our DPS because they couldnt find spell power pots. We were all in Teamspeak when one of them said, "WTF, the only pots I can find are 20k a stack. They are all listed by the same guy in 4 different guilds." I asked who it was, and they said the same name I had been seeing in zone for 2 months, multiple times a day. I respectfully disagree that one person can't negatively impact the market for this type of item, even if they cant corner the market entirely. It is happening.

No, it's really not. Alchemy mats are abundant. They are trivial to buy and harvest. I'm not talking out of my ass. I buy mats every day so I never run out. This allows me to shop around and not be stuck--as your friend recently was, with a limited selection because he waited until raid time before buying. No one is cornering the alchemy market. I think the assumption is ridiculous.

An actual example of corning the market was when the Vicious Death set was new. Experienced traders recognized the demand and gambled by buying up rare VD items. This was only a short-term phenomenon and it was not a single entity. It was many experienced traders acting independently without collusion.

Woeler · June 2016

It's called an economy, and that's how it works. Play smart, get rich.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · June 2016

zyk wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Last night, we were getting ready for raid. We were waiting on 2 of our DPS because they couldnt find spell power pots. We were all in Teamspeak when one of them said, "WTF, the only pots I can find are 20k a stack. They are all listed by the same guy in 4 different guilds." I asked who it was, and they said the same name I had been seeing in zone for 2 months, multiple times a day. I respectfully disagree that one person can't negatively impact the market for this type of item, even if they cant corner the market entirely. It is happening.

No, it's really not. Alchemy mats are abundant. They are trivial to buy and harvest. I'm not talking out of my ass. I buy mats every day so I never run out. This allows me to shop around and not be stuck--as your friend recently was, with a limited selection because he waited until raid time before buying. No one is cornering the alchemy market. I think the assumption is ridiculous.

An actual example of corning the market was when the Vicious Death set was new. Experienced traders recognized the demand and gambled by buying up rare VD items. This was only a short-term phenomenon and it was not a single entity. It was many experienced traders acting independently without collusion.

I just posted a specific example of one individual having the only pots for sale at a given time across multiple traders. And you say its not happening? Okay...

Look I might be overstating the problem a bit, but if you think people cant negatively impact pricing on an individual basis, you are mistaken.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · June 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az_GCJnXAI0

Many are this.

Bam_Bam · June 2016

Some trade guild leaders have enough wealth to alter the market - they even state this in one of their own vids. Fairplay- it is a vid about how to make gold through trading but making enough to be able to alter an entire servers economy is pretty deflating. It is what is though and lets face it, no one gives a toss either way

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · June 2016

I do!
It's despicable behavior.

zyk · June 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I just posted a specific example of one individual having the only pots for sale at a given time across multiple traders. And you say its not happening? Okay...

Look I might be overstating the problem a bit, but if you think people cant negatively impact pricing on an individual basis, you are mistaken.

Your example is terrible. Most players I know either craft their own potions or buy from friends or guildmates. Selling potions via traders is very hit and miss profit-wise because master alchemists are extremely common and so are the mats. Therefore, relatively few (compared to everyone with the ability) do it. It only takes a few active alchemist merchants in one trade guild to destroy the profit margin. They compete until most stop because it's not worth it.

It takes less than 30 minutes to max alchemy. That time includes planning and finding the materials. It's something everyone should do, obviously, for the passives.

The reason is it's not happening is because if someone attempted to actually corner the flower market, the number of flower harvesters would increase with the price, increasing supply and balancing prices.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · June 2016

Woeler wrote: »

It's called an economy, and that's how it works. Play smart, get rich.

I have millions of gold and probably more in gold mats and materials. L2P git gud, blah blah blah. Very helpful. This is not about me, its about what is good for the long term health of this game that most of us really love. My position is that this type of behavior is not healthy. If you agree, then perhaps you can jump on board with boycotting these sellers. If you disagree, I would love to hear some constructive feedback. That was unfortunately neither.

Diozaels · June 2016

The economy in this game has been and will always be terrible as long as these toxic trade guilds are around.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · June 2016

zyk wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I just posted a specific example of one individual having the only pots for sale at a given time across multiple traders. And you say its not happening? Okay...

Look I might be overstating the problem a bit, but if you think people cant negatively impact pricing on an individual basis, you are mistaken.

Your example is terrible. Most players I know either craft their own potions or buy from friends or guildmates. Selling potions via traders is very hit and miss profit-wise because master alchemists are extremely common and so are the mats. Therefore, relatively few (compared to everyone with the ability) do it. It only takes a few active alchemist merchants in one trade guild to destroy the profit margin. They compete until most stop because it's not worth it.

It takes less than 30 minutes to max alchemy. That time includes planning and finding the materials. It's something everyone should do, obviously, for the passives.

The reason is it's not happening is because if someone attempted to actually corner the flower market, the number of flower harvesters would increase with the price, increasing supply and balancing prices.

Being a master alchemist doesnt help if you dont have mats. You are seeing mats listed for 150+ gold a piece. Cheapest I could find any last night (went to about 20 traders), was around 85 on average. Sure there were a few here and there for less, but not enough to matter. The week before these posts started, those mats were less than 30 a piece. That is almost a 3 fold increase in a very short span. I know that poison introduction is part of this, but when there is only one person with pots available, he is in multiple traders, and I know for a fact that at least one trader blocked him from chat, you cant tell me its not having an impact.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · June 2016

Or having an outfit crafted.
Stuck with my V8/CP80 set on CP194.

Recremen · June 2016

Some people play MMOs specifically to control markets because that's how they have fun. It's probably like PvP except you play with currency and product instead of health and class abilities. Not my thing, but I'm not going to begrudge somebody trying. Unless they slap an achievement on it at some point, then I'm gonna sell sell sell!

At the same time, I wouldn't stop you from expressing concerns, trying to counter the market controllers with grassroots campaigns, or whatever pleases you, I just wouldn't attach any moral superiority to the effort. The way I see it, if people are allowed to manipulate markets then others are allowed to call it out and organize the community. It's just part of the market landscape, which is waaaaaaaay more complicated than some trite "Supply and Demand" curve.

zyk · June 2016

I know it's not having an impact because I actively buy alchemy mats. What you're observing is the result of more people playing the game because of the new DLC. The same goes for the price of most mats.

In response to the increased demand, there has already been an increase in harvesting. I buy all of my mats well under MM's 30 day average. It's not hard if you know how to shop.

As demand falls, so too will prices. When the prices fall, players will harvest less, slowing the price drop. Market balance in action.

When mat prices are so high that every zone is being harvested to max efficiency, only then will it be time to consider there may be an issue. Instead, most nodes go untouched for hours in the vast majority of zones.

If you think potion making is so lucrative, you should try selling them so you can realize it's probably not worth the effort.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · June 2016

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Or having an outfit crafted.
Stuck with my V8/CP80 set on CP194.

You on PC NA? Let me know in game. I can probably help you out. One nice thing about doing 25 writs a day is that I have lots of CP160 mats filling up these lovely new bags. I would rather them go to a good home. Only mats I am low on are Wax and Rubedo Leather. Everyone and their mom rolled stam DK last week. Haha

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · June 2016

Recremen wrote: »

Some people play MMOs specifically to control markets because that's how they have fun. It's probably like PvP except you play with currency and product instead of health and class abilities. Not my thing, but I'm not going to begrudge somebody trying. Unless they slap an achievement on it at some point, then I'm gonna sell sell sell!

At the same time, I wouldn't stop you from expressing concerns, trying to counter the market controllers with grassroots campaigns, or whatever pleases you, I just wouldn't attach any moral superiority to the effort. The way I see it, if people are allowed to manipulate markets then others are allowed to call it out and organize the community. It's just part of the market landscape, which is waaaaaaaay more complicated than some trite "Supply and Demand" curve.

But it should not be allowed...
It's theft to the good trader folk, and a bad, VERY bad thing for the poor player.

Imagine this to be possible in the real world.
Why do you think it is so bloody controlled in here?
Because, it IS despicable.

Hence this should be prohibited.

Wreuntzylla · June 2016

THIS IS COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE. IMPOSSIBLE I SAY!!!

ZoS has repeatedly said that the reason I have to waste hours of time porting around to check every guild trader to see if it has the one specific, rare item I want is that it makes it impossible to corner the market. In other words, this is the justification for not having a single auction house system.

Therefore - IMPOSSIBLE!!!! ZoS cannot be wrong!

Oreyn_Bearclaw · June 2016

Recremen wrote: »

Some people play MMOs specifically to control markets because that's how they have fun. It's probably like PvP except you play with currency and product instead of health and class abilities. Not my thing, but I'm not going to begrudge somebody trying. Unless they slap an achievement on it at some point, then I'm gonna sell sell sell!

At the same time, I wouldn't stop you from expressing concerns, trying to counter the market controllers with grassroots campaigns, or whatever pleases you, I just wouldn't attach any moral superiority to the effort. The way I see it, if people are allowed to manipulate markets then others are allowed to call it out and organize the community. It's just part of the market landscape, which is waaaaaaaay more complicated than some trite "Supply and Demand" curve.

I get that, and appreciate the reply. For a long time, I was very much an active trader. Once I had a few million in the bank, I realized that for me anyway, accumulating gold I didnt need was a waste. I have no issues with people trading, trying to make a profit, etc. I think most of the people running guilds and stuff do a good job and put in a lot of time to make our economy function.

Where I get concerned is when I see people trying to manipulate prices. At least in the US, we pride ourselves on our capitalist spirit. You work hard and you get rewarded, pretty logical and intuitive. But we have tons of laws to prohibit price fixing, and collusion among the major players in any industry. We do things like break up monopolies, and we do it to protect our society from exploitation. This is a good thing.

Part of me thinks its silly to apply this stuff to a freaking video game, but it is very much applicable nonetheless. There are no controls in this market. It is pure, unchecked capitalism, which has always benefited a few at the expense of the majority. The only checks and balances are the players themselves. That is why I am calling on those that give a darn to do something about it.

Taleof2Cities · June 2016

RandalMarrs wrote: »

Become self reliant and those prices will have no effect on you and eventually change when more people compete to sell product.

Short ... insightful ... and easily missed at the top of the thread.

Jim_Pipp · June 2016

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Supply. Demand.
...
There's nothing wrong with any of that. You either play and make some money, or you don't.

I find it distasteful that some people see playing the markets as a legitimately fun way to play the game. Buying things low and selling things high is ONLY a way to make another human player pay more than they had to.

Worst of all, the people playing the markets are not short of gold, but they are pricing out people who aren't so well off. It's a game, and this behaviour isn't just selfish, it's spiteful.

I see it as no different to camping by skyshards in cyrodil to gank noobs. Yes you can play the game that way, but it ruins the game for every one else.

FortheloveofKrist · June 2016

The complaint here makes no sense. You cannot “corner the market” on an item that is not rare. Anyone can collect flowers/reagents readily. Gold tempers and other rare items are different.

Plus, the fact that everyone can put their crafting mats in a bottomless bag means there will be scarcity again. Inventory management will no longer force many players to sell items in order to make room.

So go collect some crafting mats and sell them. Especially the ones other people don’t bother to collect. You’ll make some gold.

And I will keep collecting my own mats and selling pots for whatever people will pay for them. It’s not greed, it’s supply and demand.

Makkir · June 2016

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Supply. Demand.
...
There's nothing wrong with any of that. You either play and make some money, or you don't.

I find it distasteful that some people see playing the markets as a legitimately fun way to play the game. Buying things low and selling things high is ONLY a way to make another human player pay more than they had to.

Worst of all, the people playing the markets are not short of gold, but they are pricing out people who aren't so well off. It's a game, and this behaviour isn't just selfish, it's spiteful.

I see it as no different to camping by skyshards in cyrodil to gank noobs. Yes you can play the game that way, but it ruins the game for every one else.

Unfortunately we live in a world now where we hand out trophies for 8th place and kids like you never learn the value of 1st place.

FortheloveofKrist · June 2016

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Supply. Demand.
...
There's nothing wrong with any of that. You either play and make some money, or you don't.

I find it distasteful that some people see playing the markets as a legitimately fun way to play the game. Buying things low and selling things high is ONLY a way to make another human player pay more than they had to.

Worst of all, the people playing the markets are not short of gold, but they are pricing out people who aren't so well off. It's a game, and this behaviour isn't just selfish, it's spiteful.

I see it as no different to camping by skyshards in cyrodil to gank noobs. Yes you can play the game that way, but it ruins the game for every one else.

So the way you play the game is okay. The way someone else plays the game is no good. Got it.

Recremen · June 2016

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Some people play MMOs specifically to control markets because that's how they have fun. It's probably like PvP except you play with currency and product instead of health and class abilities. Not my thing, but I'm not going to begrudge somebody trying. Unless they slap an achievement on it at some point, then I'm gonna sell sell sell!

At the same time, I wouldn't stop you from expressing concerns, trying to counter the market controllers with grassroots campaigns, or whatever pleases you, I just wouldn't attach any moral superiority to the effort. The way I see it, if people are allowed to manipulate markets then others are allowed to call it out and organize the community. It's just part of the market landscape, which is waaaaaaaay more complicated than some trite "Supply and Demand" curve.

But it should not be allowed...
It's theft to the good trader folk, and a bad, VERY bad thing for the poor player.

Imagine this to be possible in the real world.
Why do you think it is so bloody controlled in here?
Because, it IS despicable.

Hence this should be prohibited.

In the real world, resources are scarce and there are hard caps on productivity. In ESO there is ostensibly a hard cap on productivity (node respawn time), but we aren't anywhere close to reaching it. So in ESO there isn't the same impetus to fix it. People can ostensibly just go out and farm the resources themselves, or buy from a cheap seller before the manipulator gets to it, or just not upgrade their gear if they don't consider it worth the investment. I mean, if someone was willing to buy materials to begin with, they obviously had time to farm up the gold, and therefore they can either switch to farming up or farm slightly more gold to get slightly more expensive materials. There's already a natural equilibrium point.

Now, if someone doesn't have the gold for the materials or the time to farm them on their own, they just don't get gold gear, end of discussion. There are always, always going to be players who don't make the cut because they can't invest the time. That's not the fault of the sellers, though, because the resources are still out there, available to be farmed. It's silly to call that "despicable".

You also don't seem to understand how silly/impossible it would be to try and implement market controls. Exactly how would you go about doing that? Can any of the economists in this thread shed some insight on how to fairly regulate the game market without false positives?

Makkir · June 2016

@Oreyn_Bearclaw not to stir this off topic but just to shed some insight...some of these gold "whales" are selling their gold to websites and that is enough incentive for them to want and want more gold.

wayfarerx · June 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

We do things like break up monopolies, and we do it to protect our society from exploitation. This is a good thing.

There are two ways to kill a monopoly:

Have the government step in and break it up.
Compete against the monopoly and beat it at its own game.

Since Tamriel is mired in a civil war it's not reasonable to expect three warring governments to impose economic regulations. So you're left with competition. I predict that you would be much more successful getting a small group to farm mats and list them at reasonable prices on various traders than you would be at trying to get the entire population (many who don't even read the forums) to boycott the traders you dislike. You get rich as a bonus (if you find you have too much gold feel free to send any excess my way

).

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · June 2016

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Supply. Demand.
...
There's nothing wrong with any of that. You either play and make some money, or you don't.

I find it distasteful that some people see playing the markets as a legitimately fun way to play the game. Buying things low and selling things high is ONLY a way to make another human player pay more than they had to.

Worst of all, the people playing the markets are not short of gold, but they are pricing out people who aren't so well off. It's a game, and this behaviour isn't just selfish, it's spiteful.

I see it as no different to camping by skyshards in cyrodil to gank noobs. Yes you can play the game that way, but it ruins the game for every one else.

Bloody fu... dging A, brother.
+Agree.