Dark Brotherhood Balance Thread

Ishammael · June 2016

OK, we've had a week and a full weekend to get a sense of Dark Brotherhood PvP changes. This thread is for discussion of constructive balance suggestions.

I will start with just a few:
1. Armor penetration is too high. Sharpened DW + Light Armor = 10k with zero effort. Add a little effort (Destro Staff, Maul, plus Major Breach) and you're at ~15k penetration. While not bugged, this is like the old Sharpened bug of patch 1.6. In 5H and a shield you're at barely 18k armor -- aka zero armor. My suggestion: leave penetration as is, buff Heavy Armor values by ~50% OR change armor mitigation scaling (650 armor = 1% mitigation is total ***). Also, remove armor mitigation hard cap -- why is there no cap on damage while there is a cap on mitigation?
2. Gap Closers. Are messed up. This actually is a balance issue, not just a bug issue. Already several threads on this.
3. Radiant Oppression. It needs to be changed. It is too good, too easy to use. There is no skillful counter. If the damage stays the same, it should be cut back to 20m range. Otherwise it needs to be dodge-able. (side note: Magicka templar is pretty much the top of the food chain right now because of the shield changes.)
4. Shields. I agree with the shield changes. However, Sorcs need something in exchange -- re-work Surge or that stupid self-snare skill which is supposed to heal you into a viable self heal.
5. Magicka DK. This will be an entire thread with numbers. Bottom line: its a completely gutted class left in the dust by four patches of gameplay mechanic changes. I still play it out of pure stubbornness. Starting point for balance: Major Evasion to Cinder Storm, exempt Dragon Blood from Battle Spirit, some form of extra ultimate generation (perhaps as a function of damage taken or damage taken at low health), access to damage mitigation buffs.

Let's keep it constructive and civil.

Zheg · June 2016

Siege was over-buffed in the TG patch and now with the increased costs in the DB patch it makes it even harder to cleanse and heal up, particularly for non-templars. Siege shield and purge are under-performing. Hell, the entire Support skill line is under-performing.

Many skills have too many secondary and tertiary effects - most of them being added snares. If the skill is meant to snare, make it like cinder storm, if it's just there 'because', take it off.

Feel free to correct me, but I think major defile is available in more armor sets than any other debuff in the game, with fasalla's able to stack on top of that. DFs and banners are also pretty common in cyro. This is obviously going to impact a templar most, but for other classes with a weak capacity to cleanse, they're hit pretty hard as well.

Many of the passives and skills were designed back when soft caps were a thing and after many half-hearted and poorly thought out balance changes, we're in dire need of a re-evaluation of skill costs and effects. Many passives are useless. Should eclipse really cost as much as breath of life? Really? Should it be as utterly useless as it is (even AFTER Wrobel recently focused on the skill, tried to make it better, and ended up making it worse)? Should skill-line passives make the active skill WORSE (i.e. eclipse)? How is that left in game for a week, much less 5+ months?

Group fights are still won and lost over prox det. Why is this skill the end-all-be-all of pvp? FFS just get rid of it.

Negates are OP as F, invisible negates even more OP.

Zenetrax · June 2016

Detect pots still makes the Nightblade cloak useless. Just saying.

Delsskia · June 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

3. Radiant Oppression. It needs to be changed. It is too good, too easy to use. There is no skillful counter.

The only skills required are block or LOS, it's really pretty easy to deal with.

Ishammael wrote: »

4. Shields. I agree with the shield changes. However, Sorcs need something in exchange

Sorcs can mitigate all damage while doing massive damage that also knocks you down and stuns/disorients you locking you out of everything to defend yourself. If you manage to survive, they simply streak away and hide. The only thing Sorcs need is a nerf. If you can mitigate all damage you shouldn't be able to do massive damage and if you do massive damage you shouldn't be able to mitigate all damage. On top of all that they have great healing and resource management. They literally have every friggin tool in the toolbox.

holosoul · June 2016

then play your sorc delsk

Psilent · June 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Siege was over-buffed in the TG patch and now with the increased costs in the DB patch it makes it even harder to cleanse and heal up, particularly for non-templars. Siege shield and purge are under-performing. Hell, the entire Support skill line is under-performing.

Many skills have too many secondary and tertiary effects - most of them being added snares. If the skill is meant to snare, make it like cinder storm, if it's just there 'because', take it off.

Feel free to correct me, but I think major defile is available in more armor sets than any other debuff in the game, with fasalla's able to stack on top of that. DFs and banners are also pretty common in cyro. This is obviously going to impact a templar most, but for other classes with a weak capacity to cleanse, they're hit pretty hard as well.

Many of the passives and skills were designed back when soft caps were a thing and after many half-hearted and poorly thought out balance changes, we're in dire need of a re-evaluation of skill costs and effects. Many passives are useless. Should eclipse really cost as much as breath of life? Really? Should it be as utterly useless as it is (even AFTER Wrobel recently focused on the skill, tried to make it better, and ended up making it worse)? Should skill-line passives make the active skill WORSE (i.e. eclipse)? How is that left in game for a week, much less 5+ months?

Poisons coupled with the purge change is brutal. You want that fire ballista dot purged, but instead purge off minor fracture and minor defile.

vanzan · June 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Siege was over-buffed in the TG patch and now with the increased costs in the DB patch it makes it even harder to cleanse and heal up, particularly for non-templars. Siege shield and purge are under-performing. Hell, the entire Support skill line is under-performing.

This

Kilandros · June 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

OK, we've had a week and a full weekend to get a sense of Dark Brotherhood PvP changes. This thread is for discussion of constructive balance suggestions.

I will start with just a few:
1. Armor penetration is too high. Sharpened DW + Light Armor = 10k with zero effort. Add a little effort (Destro Staff, Maul, plus Major Breach) and you're at ~15k penetration. While not bugged, this is like the old Sharpened bug of patch 1.6. In 5H and a shield you're at barely 18k armor -- aka zero armor. My suggestion: leave penetration as is, buff Heavy Armor values by ~50% OR change armor mitigation scaling (650 armor = 1% mitigation is total ***). Also, remove armor mitigation hard cap -- why is there no cap on damage while there is a cap on mitigation?
2. Gap Closers. Are messed up. This actually is a balance issue, not just a bug issue. Already several threads on this.
3. Radiant Oppression. It needs to be changed. It is too good, too easy to use. There is no skillful counter. If the damage stays the same, it should be cut back to 20m range. Otherwise it needs to be dodge-able. (side note: Magicka templar is pretty much the top of the food chain right now because of the shield changes.)
4. Shields. I agree with the shield changes. However, Sorcs need something in exchange -- re-work Surge or that stupid self-snare skill which is supposed to heal you into a viable self heal.
5. Magicka DK. This will be an entire thread with numbers. Bottom line: its a completely gutted class left in the dust by four patches of gameplay mechanic changes. I still play it out of pure stubbornness. Starting point for balance: Major Evasion to Cinder Storm, exempt Dragon Blood from Battle Spirit, some form of extra ultimate generation (perhaps as a function of damage taken or damage taken at low health), access to damage mitigation buffs.

Let's keep it constructive and civil.

I agree with everything except #3 and #4:

Radiant Destruction - This skill has been covered ad nauseam I think. The best counter is purge and with the introduction of poisons everyone is purging constantly. I know I am. The skill hurts at low health yes but that's a result of its intended effect since it is, after all, an execute.

Sorcerers - Shields were a crutch that most sorcerers were too reliant on in the first place. That being said, the change to Surge does suck and I'd agree with you that they would need compensation--but they got massive buffs to Negate. Negate is currently the best PvP ultimate in the game. No other ult even comes close right now.

That being said, I think the biggest issue in DB is the changes to combat animations/prioritization. Activating skills is far more sluggish and unresponsive, making active damage mitigation more difficult which in turn magnifies the issue of increased penetration.

EDIT to include that I'm annoyed the infinite snare/immob meta from TG persists.

holosoul · June 2016

@Kilandros poisons are not purgable
not even gonna tell you about sorc you're probably salty from pre DB

Kilandros · June 2016

holosoul wrote: »

@Kilandros poisons are not purgable
not even gonna tell you about sorc you're probably salty from pre DB

Why would I be salty? I love playing my sorc.

Delsskia · June 2016

holosoul wrote: »

then play your sorc delsk

I may end up doing that

Psilent wrote: »

Poisons coupled with the purge change is brutal. You want that fire ballista dot purged, but instead purge off minor fracture and minor defile.

Purge is in sorry shape while debuffs drop like candy from a piñata. Even if you have a purge monkey in the group, they just run out of magicka trying to get rid of the major debuffs 6 people at a time.

Sallington · June 2016

The Surge nerf should be reverted for sure.

Vangy · June 2016

#1 soooo much.... I'm taking ridiculous hits even with 35k resists and 2.3k impen..... I can understand why people just say screw it and go full qq damage.... Building for Defence is neigh impossible...

BRogueNZ · June 2016

Vangy wrote: »

#1 soooo much.... I'm taking ridiculous hits even with 35k resists and 2.3k impen..... I can understand why people just say screw it and go full qq damage.... Building for Defence is neigh impossible...

I agree. At time I feel like I'm an OP healer but then the damage received a lot of the time reminds me otherwise. I am a glass cannon but there are no saving myself or others sometimes. and that's a good thing by the way.

RinaldoGandolphi · June 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

OK, we've had a week and a full weekend to get a sense of Dark Brotherhood PvP changes. This thread is for discussion of constructive balance suggestions.

I will start with just a few:
1. Armor penetration is too high. Sharpened DW + Light Armor = 10k with zero effort. Add a little effort (Destro Staff, Maul, plus Major Breach) and you're at ~15k penetration. While not bugged, this is like the old Sharpened bug of patch 1.6. In 5H and a shield you're at barely 18k armor -- aka zero armor. My suggestion: leave penetration as is, buff Heavy Armor values by ~50% OR change armor mitigation scaling (650 armor = 1% mitigation is total ***). Also, remove armor mitigation hard cap -- why is there no cap on damage while there is a cap on mitigation?
2. Gap Closers. Are messed up. This actually is a balance issue, not just a bug issue. Already several threads on this.
3. Radiant Oppression. It needs to be changed. It is too good, too easy to use. There is no skillful counter. If the damage stays the same, it should be cut back to 20m range. Otherwise it needs to be dodge-able. (side note: Magicka templar is pretty much the top of the food chain right now because of the shield changes.)
4. Shields. I agree with the shield changes. However, Sorcs need something in exchange -- re-work Surge or that stupid self-snare skill which is supposed to heal you into a viable self heal.
5. Magicka DK. This will be an entire thread with numbers. Bottom line: its a completely gutted class left in the dust by four patches of gameplay mechanic changes. I still play it out of pure stubbornness. Starting point for balance: Major Evasion to Cinder Storm, exempt Dragon Blood from Battle Spirit, some form of extra ultimate generation (perhaps as a function of damage taken or damage taken at low health), access to damage mitigation buffs.

Let's keep it constructive and civil.

#1 - I agree with fully, they need to dial penetration back a bit.
#2 - Gap closers are just really broken now, needs fixed.
#3 - Im ok with Radiant as it is, it really doesn't do a lto fo damage unless your health is low anyways.
#4 - The Sorc Shield Stacking was a bit much, but it was also all they had. Sorc's can use Heavy Armor this update and dish out some good damage with the right gear while still being extremely tanky, but I don't think they should have killed off the light armor caster completely in PVP...they need to take the cost penalty off of Bolt Escape and increase the teleport range to be 3m more then every gap closer, if a Sorc is going to be squishy and weak with weak shields, they need to have the best mobility...Simply put the mage should be squishy if caught, but catching him will be the key word there...right now Sorc's are cannon fodder outside of Batrlemage Heavy Builds.
#5 - Believe it or not, Magicka DK has been a blast for me this patch. I dropped vampire and went back to my duel Staff Pyromage roots and its money. Stacking Healing Ward + Dampen Magic when being pressure will save your life, and Fossilize + Shooting Star i+ Burning Talons at the end is just a major ouch...Molten Whip + Burning Embers + Engulfing Flames is just awesome, and fully charged Flame Staff Heavy Attacks with Molten Arms and a few points in Staff Expert can hit up to 30k, I was getting 28k hits in TG update with it..and Vicious Death as a Dunmer Fire mage is just lol, the amount of Flame Damage is just absurd. Sure the class still has short comings, and is far easier to be zerged then other classes, but its much better off then it used to be say 6 months ago, still some room for improvement, but its far more fun then it used to be.

Some good and bad, but 1 and 2 def need fixed sooner rather then later.

Joy_Division · June 2016

Dunno if it's just desperation, but I'd live with all of these balance issues if I could just have sound, not be randomly teleported halfway across the map, and have my ultimates and potions fire off when I press the button.

Zheg · June 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

#5 - Believe it or not, Magicka DK has been a blast for me this patch. I dropped vampire and went back to my duel Staff Pyromage roots and its money. Stacking Healing Ward + Dampen Magic when being pressure will save your life, and Fossilize + Shooting Star i+ Burning Talons at the end is just a major ouch...Molten Whip + Burning Embers + Engulfing Flames is just awesome, and fully charged Flame Staff Heavy Attacks with Molten Arms and a few points in Staff Expert can hit up to 30k, I was getting 28k hits in TG update with it..and Vicious Death as a Dunmer Fire mage is just lol, the amount of Flame Damage is just absurd. Sure the class still has short comings, and is far easier to be zerged then other classes, but its much better off then it used to be say 6 months ago, still some room for improvement, but its far more fun then it used to be.

Some good and bad, but 1 and 2 def need fixed sooner rather then later.

Mag DK can be rough solo, but it's currently one of the best specs for group play.

Ghostbane · June 2016

DKs
No complaints about Magicka DK, they are in a very good place speced right. Stam DKs lawl...

Sorcs
Not so sure on the Surge change, while the magicka side of the sorc community could do with it, the stamina side really really doesn't. Negate should be left alone, awesome change to have a useful pvp ultimate again. I like and agree with @RinaldoGandolphi ideas on streak. The reliance on stacking all the shields is over, be like every other class the last few patches and adapt a new strategy, as having 2 sorcs myself, being able to have gear with pool enhancing traits and be able to tank really hard whilst pouring out serious damage was ridiculously OP. Adapt, come up with something new.

Templars
Just about the all round class that nearly has everything on both sides of the fence. Repelberence needs fixed tho, badly.

NBs
I feel mNB is a real wet noodle now, on the basis of where since the new DLC, you take a screenshot when you come against one. Rare sighting. Stam NBs are insane, but no complaints. The cloak issue, abit buggy at the moment with ability queing, the whole pot thing is ridiculous. The call for invisible immunity but apply a cost penalty, like on mist form, is a better idea than DoT suppression.

Ishammael · June 2016

Thanks for all the responses so far!

Can anyone comment on the effect of poisons? I haven't really noticed yet.

Zheg wrote: »

Many of the passives and skills were designed back when soft caps were a thing and after many half-hearted and poorly thought out balance changes, we're in dire need of a re-evaluation of skill costs and effects. Many passives are useless. Should eclipse really cost as much as breath of life? Really? Should it be as utterly useless as it is (even AFTER Wrobel recently focused on the skill, tried to make it better, and ended up making it worse)? Should skill-line passives make the active skill WORSE (i.e. eclipse)? How is that left in game for a week, much less 5+ months?

Agreed.

Zheg wrote: »

Group fights are still won and lost over prox det. Why is this skill the end-all-be-all of pvp? FFS just get rid of it.

Agreed.

Zheg wrote: »

Negates are OP as F, invisible negates even more OP.

Agreed. Do you remember 1.5 Negate? 'Cause 2.4 negate is even better. The invis negate thing needs to get fixed.

Delsskia wrote: »

The only skills required are block or LOS, it's really pretty easy to deal with.

Completely, utterly disagree. 3s Block is non-viable on most specs. LOS is not always viable. Why should a 40m execute be undodge-able? The 2H execute at least requires melee range and is dodge-able. @KenaPKK

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dunno if it's just desperation, but I'd live with all of these balance issues if I could just have sound, not be randomly teleported halfway across the map, and have my ultimates and potions fire off when I press the button.

Yeah this is bad. The no-sound fights are annoying. We had a fight last night which i shot halfway across the map three times in ten seconds, then got an inifinite loading screen. Yeah, I rage quit.

Sallington wrote: »

The Surge nerf should be reverted for sure.

I'm not sure if surge needs to be change or if they need another mechanic. Surge on stamina builds was a little over the top.

Kilandros wrote: »

That being said, I think the biggest issue in DB is the changes to combat animations/prioritization. Activating skills is far more sluggish and unresponsive, making active damage mitigation more difficult which in turn magnifies the issue of increased penetration.

Yeah I forgot about this. Animations are FUBAR right now. Really aggravating.

Zenetrax wrote: »

Detect pots still makes the Nightblade cloak useless. Just saying.

This is one thing that I have little sympathy for. An "invisible" button in my opinion is nearly impossible to balance around. Especially an invisible button that purges, speeds you up, adds armor, and adds bonus damage.

KenaPKK · June 2016

Siege op, shields op, penetration op, Radiant lacking counterplay, purge sucking, stam sorc sucking, magicka DK sucking when solo, magicka lacking snare removal, blah blah blah.

Yea there are a lot of unbalanced mechanics. We've communicated them all and banged our heads against their silly forum defenders at every turn.

Honestly at this point I just want these stupid animation changes reverted. The combat system has been fundamentally changed, and it feels clunky and slow. I'm not enjoying PvP right now, and I have several close friends and guildies who have stopped playing indefinitely...

Psilent · June 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Siege op, shields op, penetration op, Radiant lacking counterplay, purge sucking, stam sorc sucking, magicka DK sucking when solo, magicka lacking snare removal, blah blah blah.

Yea there are a lot of unbalanced mechanics. We've communicated them all and banged our heads against their silly forum defenders at every turn.

Honestly at this point I just want these stupid animation changes reverted. The combat system has been fundamentally changed, and it feels clunky and slow. I'm not enjoying PvP right now, and I have several close friends and guildies who have stopped playing indefinitely...

Didn't Magicka builds get Mist Form for snare removal?

Xsorus · June 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Siege op, shields op, penetration op, Radiant lacking counterplay, purge sucking, stam sorc sucking, magicka DK sucking when solo, magicka lacking snare removal, blah blah blah.

Yea there are a lot of unbalanced mechanics. We've communicated them all and banged our heads against their silly forum defenders at every turn.

Honestly at this point I just want these stupid animation changes reverted. The combat system has been fundamentally changed, and it feels clunky and slow. I'm not enjoying PvP right now, and I have several close friends and guildies who have stopped playing indefinitely...

Stam Sorcs don't suck.

I also find Siege being overpowered rather funny....

Other stuff I somewhat agree with.

Sallington · June 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Siege op, shields op, penetration op, Radiant lacking counterplay, purge sucking, stam sorc sucking, magicka DK sucking when solo, magicka lacking snare removal, blah blah blah.

Yea there are a lot of unbalanced mechanics. We've communicated them all and banged our heads against their silly forum defenders at every turn.

Honestly at this point I just want these stupid animation changes reverted. The combat system has been fundamentally changed, and it feels clunky and slow. I'm not enjoying PvP right now, and I have several close friends and guildies who have stopped playing indefinitely...

These words are echoed after every single large update.

ZOS, quit adding things. Fix what's there. People are still here because we enjoy the core of the game. Just work on the foundation for a bit.

Bramir · June 2016

Prepare to be ignored by the developers!

There...see how easy that was? Go about your day...nothing to see here!

arkansas_ESO · June 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

Stam Sorcs don't suck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxXEPk3dzFg

Dyride · June 2016

I think Purge/Cleanse should remove 3 effects, same with base morph of Templars cleanse. Keep the other morph at 5 effects.
For Sorcs they need to restore momentum at the end of Streak by removing the half sec root, and return the ability to Streak in the direction you are looking.

The direction check is probably why 20-25% of streaks are delay cast/misfire because it has to make another location check to see which way your character is facing.
Having to stand still before a potion has severely hampered being defensive as a stam build.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @wrobel cause no one else did.

LeifErickson · June 2016

There needs to be more discussion about how terrible these new animations are (and if for some reason you like them, please convince me to like them too). Who cares about balance when the combat itself is no longer fluid and amazing like it once was.

Aerem · June 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Siege op, shields op, penetration op, Radiant lacking counterplay, purge sucking, stam sorc sucking, magicka DK sucking when solo, magicka lacking snare removal, blah blah blah.

Yea there are a lot of unbalanced mechanics. We've communicated them all and banged our heads against their silly forum defenders at every turn.

Honestly at this point I just want these stupid animation changes reverted. The combat system has been fundamentally changed, and it feels clunky and slow. I'm not enjoying PvP right now, and I have several close friends and guildies who have stopped playing indefinitely...

@KenaPKK I am coming back I swear.... Of course I am kinda also banking on the fact ZOS gets their *** together for when I come back in late July.

AbraXuSeXile · June 2016

Logged in after some weeks away, first encounter was stam dk evasion malubeth junkies.

Boring.

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2016

Zheg wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

#5 - Believe it or not, Magicka DK has been a blast for me this patch. I dropped vampire and went back to my duel Staff Pyromage roots and its money. Stacking Healing Ward + Dampen Magic when being pressure will save your life, and Fossilize + Shooting Star i+ Burning Talons at the end is just a major ouch...Molten Whip + Burning Embers + Engulfing Flames is just awesome, and fully charged Flame Staff Heavy Attacks with Molten Arms and a few points in Staff Expert can hit up to 30k, I was getting 28k hits in TG update with it..and Vicious Death as a Dunmer Fire mage is just lol, the amount of Flame Damage is just absurd. Sure the class still has short comings, and is far easier to be zerged then other classes, but its much better off then it used to be say 6 months ago, still some room for improvement, but its far more fun then it used to be.

Some good and bad, but 1 and 2 def need fixed sooner rather then later.

Mag DK can be rough solo, but it's currently one of the best specs for group play.

I always found DK to be really easy Solo once you get past the awkward phase from level 1 to 7. Pve is just easy with a DK now, but maybe its an issue of playstyle too. People gravitate toward different things (Azumarax in my sig is my pyromage dunmer).

KenaPKK · June 2016

Psilent wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Siege op, shields op, penetration op, Radiant lacking counterplay, purge sucking, stam sorc sucking, magicka DK sucking when solo, magicka lacking snare removal, blah blah blah.

Yea there are a lot of unbalanced mechanics. We've communicated them all and banged our heads against their silly forum defenders at every turn.

Honestly at this point I just want these stupid animation changes reverted. The combat system has been fundamentally changed, and it feels clunky and slow. I'm not enjoying PvP right now, and I have several close friends and guildies who have stopped playing indefinitely...

Didn't Magicka builds get Mist Form for snare removal?

Sigh... Pigeonholed into using vampirism even though Clouding Swarm is still broken. Makes me sad.