Can we have a "good guy" guild in the future?

j3crow · June 2016

... only way they could be worse was if there was a quest to capture a victim to slowly torture then to death and sew their skin into a new costume I guess...

@TheShadowScout
You sir, are a genius
I bet folks would pay for that in the Crownstore

Osteos · June 2016

Knights of the Nine questline was fun in Oblivion. Although now it would be the Eight. They exist in eso right now in cyrodiil. I'm more inclined to play the knight over the assassin personally.

j3crow · June 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

I would like the following since it reuses all of tsmriel and allows for easily repeatable content. Can easily work into any lore.

Wardens of "St.Chris" (insert any Tamriel Appropriate traveller protection name)
Devoted to kerping highways and byways safe for trade and travel and cultural contact.
Tries to be neutral since corrupt local officials can be as bad as bandits, hungry ogre posse, cultists seeking virgins for weekend "rituals" or fiance trying to free love from disapproving parents/slaver/custodians relocating in a hurry.

In addition to its own story quests, repeatables could take form of:
Meet so-n-so at wayshrine x, escort to y along road and deal with problem z. Then eith leave for short mission or stay for longer, tougher leg and greater rewards.

But add a widely varied table of x, y and z and you have a massive number of unique missions on that loop spread all over the place. Challenge could even be non-violent sometimes, like getting local help to shore up bridge too shakey for the big wsgon load. heck could even have missions where the escortee is the bad guy and eventually turning on you.

Seems a content model easy to expand, re-using a lot of existing elements with lotsa potential.

I will absolutely join the Wardens of St. Chris if afforded the opportunity.

In fact, it is a guild that just begs to be created.

Create a Player Guild 'Wardens of St. Chris", and I will join immediately

Stratforge · June 2016

Didn't read the thread so I bet someone already suggested this but the Temple faction from Morrowind was super fun. I'd absolutely take up the cloth.

ContraTempo · June 2016

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

After betraying all moral values of my character with the thieves guild and now dark brotherhood, i would love to see a good guild like the companions or dawnguard from skyrim.
Maybe some imperial order, followers of stendarr or even something like the knights of the nine ( well eight, tiber septim is coming in 200 years in eso timeline )
Hell, even those knights of the hour are fine after some reforms.

A bard guild would be fine too. Saving tamriel with the power of music.

I know, we could have Templars. Oh, wait...

Kendaric · June 2016

The Dark Brotherhood is clearly considered evil by Tamriel's populace, even though they do not view themselves as such.
The Thieves' Guild, on the other hand, is not evil (and is not viewed as evil). They are criminals, sure, but that doesn't make them evil. In terms of D&D alignments (for those familiar with them) I'd consider the DB somewhere between lawful evil and neutral evil, while the TG is more along the lines of chaotic neutral.

I still think it would have been good to have the option to join the other side (Iron Wheel/Order of the Hour) and/or to destroy the organisation from within (like it was in TES V: Skyrim).

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

After betraying all moral values of my character with the thieves guild and now dark brotherhood, i would love to see a good guild like the companions or dawnguard from skyrim...

My main is a nasty bounty huntress, so she enjoyed those criminal activities, a lot. My secondary on the other hand is a naive and decent librarian, who doesn't even open thieves troves when he stumbles over them... so in his name, I wholly agree with this one!

And thus, I would dearly love to have "opposites" guilds, giving people a choice which side to join, and once the choice is made, locking out the "opposed" activities (meaning if you join one of these "lawful" guilds, you can forget about ever getting allowed into the outlaw refugee again, and those places might have justice-strength guards added to them which attack those goodie-two-greaves on sight... and thieves troves would be inaccessibe, something like that... even tresspass-entering a house would be impossible, but there might be an special "search warrant" item that allows them to do it without trespassing for those quest-related needful searches of other peoples property or something)...
...like...
...some crimefighter guild that only characters who don't do the nasty thievery or murdering can join. Might even be the Iron Wheel, in the aftermath of the TG storyline, as they return to their home base reeling from the embarrassment they got into both as they were being played for fools, and as they made a lot of bad blood through overzealous cracking down... they likely would need to seek new recruits, to cover the, uhm, losses incurred in the hew's bane mission, and might have to deal with internal strife as the overzealous "punishment" faction tries to make a play for leadership, opposed by the more responsible "lawkeeper" faction which has most its members from the newbies who are all idealistic and righteous without yet going "bad cop" - which naturally would be just the spot for a player character to enter the picture...
...or...
...some scholars guild that does not deal with murder or theft, or those who would stoop to either, but in their pursuit of scholarly endevours (aka, tomb raiding) came into conflict with (criminal) organizations they proved ill equipped to handle, and thus open their doors to new members seeking those who pair scholarly qualifications with noteworthy battle prowess to brave both archeological expeditions that deal with the more unruly of tom denizens as well as deal with dangers of a more recent date which may be aiming to give all the scholarly bookwyrms a terminal wedgie...
...or...
...and order of oh so noble knights, who take quests for those who have noone else to turn to, as long as their cause is just and honorable. It may not pay anything in terms of gold, but in return the knights place would allow their stalward fighters free gear repair, a daily ration of gear like foodstuffs, potions, repair kits, and the order would hand them some donated equipment for each quest they bring to closure. Damsels in distress delivered from doom, fiendish villains vexed in every way, mangy murderous monsters massacred, that sort of thing for the bards to sing songs about, and all for the honor and glory, and not like those pesky mercenaries of the fighters guild who do it for profit... and of course, a story line dealing with those less honorable abusing the noble knights for their own nefarious plots. And yes, it might just as well be the knights of the hour in the aftermath of the DB storyline.
That sort of thing...
...by the way...
...while we are taking deeds the bards might sing about, I definitely also would want to see a bardic guild. Though traditionally bards often have had a somewhat loose view of the concept of legal ownership (or marriage vows for that matter), so they definitely would not bat an eye at some thief joining them - as long as they have a good singing voice, and steal with style! But a bardic guild filled with song and charm (and quests involving a lot of charmwork and rougeish escapades) as well as a music based skill line... count me in for a DLC I'd buy!

Life is not white and black - it is greyish - I am not fond of any mechanics, which would lock my characters into a certain playstyle or moral - moral is permanent choice making, despite the fact that a bad deed is eventually easy to achieve and lucrative. This is what makes moral choices difficult - but when locked into a role, there is no longer any choice to make. A person locked into a role, without the ability to do bad, is no longer a moral person, because it cannot make any moral choices in the matter anymore - the initial choice does not count, because it could not be reverted once made.

Take marriage as an example - if the vows made could never be broken, where is the challenge of a moral choice in this, not to cheat. If it is impossible to cheat, than this is not a moral choice, but just impossible to cheat. But if there is temptation and you do not cheat on your partner nevertheless and you make these kind of choices over and over and over again with other temptations, then you are a moral person - but not if you would not have a choice at all - that would be easy mode.

When the only choices you are given are all bad, you're just as locked in as this picture you're trying to falsely paint. There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking for some light morality choices to be added to the game. I can't even count how many times the choices I've been given in this game have been equally abhorrent to my character's nature.

Then just refuse to do either - that would be the moral choice to make in this case. If you find reasons, to do them nevertheless, you enter the gray zone - and be a normal person, who does not make always just good or always just bad decisions. The truth is in the middle somewhere - major choices should be good, minor ones can eventually be bad ones - this makes still for a good character.

Way to totally ignore the point here Lysette.

A good way to experience the relativity of "good" and"bad" is the comedy "sliding doors" - watch it, it teaches something about this - this movie changed my view on what is "good" and "bad" and made my life a lot easier in regards to moral choices.

Edit: and no, I do not ignore it - I am just telling you, that the moment you consider a bad thing a possible choice, just because you want to do it, you start to lie to yourself - you want to stay a moral person, while in your mind you are already on the way to make an amoral decision and are just trying to find a good reason to do so - just admit that, be human, and you will have much easier time around. The harder part is to really be a moral person, but this will exclude you from a lot of fun - this is what makes it so hard to be a morally good person. Allow for gray, that is what I am suggesting, do not try to be just white.

GTood and bad does not exist.
Sure we have general guidelines as to what is good, or what is not so nice, but there it ends.

Killing someone, is it good or bad?
It all depends on the situation, no?
If I see my father suffering from a disease he cannot overcome, would it still be bad if I ended his life?
Some will say "No, it's mercyfull to end his misery." where others will say "Taking a life, no matter how, is wrong."
A prime example that the same situation does not have to be the same to the individual seeing it.

Is a serial killer bad?
Well, if you could peer into some of these folk's minds, you will see that to them, it is not, where most folks simply would say "Abso-fudging-lutely!"

Now, back to the topic: I still see no need for a yet another all goodie-goodie DLC.
Too much of that already.
We need an opposite, Tamriel knows of pure evil, we've been fighting this at every sodding turn, time for something evil...
Since I am good in being bad... :P

WardenofArcherus · June 2016

yumyum wrote: »

There was the "Blades"
[url="http://"]http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Blades_(Skyrim)[/url]

The Blades could be a viable group. Remember the Imperial City questline? The Drake of Blades? Tie that in with the path of disarray the Dragonguard have been following since their official disbandment after the assassination of Emperor Reman III (End of the First Era, 578 years before the Soulburst):

A portion were retained as an intelligence network for the Akaviri Potentates. Book Link
Some followed former centurion Dinieras-Ves to create the precursor to the Fighter's Guild. Book Link
A former dragonguard known as the "Grandmaster" began teaching pupils the martial and mystical arts of the old Akaviri to preserve their ways; this was passed from trainer to trainee, giving birth to the Dragon Knights. Book Link
Others may have just become roving adventurers, mercenaries, or trainers in the martial arts. Book Link
There was at least one sect that continued to hunt dragons at least until 2E 373 (About 205 years before the Soulburst) Book Link

There is a belief that the Blades (name utilized in the lorebook) spent time during the Interregnum searching for, and protecting those believed to be Dragonborn. Book Link

So it is possible that we (the players) could help in the formation of the Blades, post IC questline. I can already think of some pretty neat concepts and Elder Scrolls series tie-ins that could make an interesting DLC.

Lysette · June 2016

Kendaric wrote: »

The Dark Brotherhood is clearly considered evil by Tamriel's populace, even though they do not view themselves as such.
The Thieves' Guild, on the other hand, is not evil (and is not viewed as evil). They are criminals, sure, but that doesn't make them evil. In terms of D&D alignments (for those familiar with them) I'd consider the DB somewhere between lawful evil and neutral evil, while the TG is more along the lines of chaotic neutral.

I still think it would have been good to have the option to join the other side (Iron Wheel/Order of the Hour) and/or to destroy the organisation from within (like it was in TES V: Skyrim).

Dark Brotherhood is not evil, they help people who want someone to disappear forever and those have most of the time pretty good reasons, why they want that. Normally people do not want someone to disappear forever, if those are not in one or the other way bad people. Those, who do the ritual, ask basically for divine intervention in the matter and if the contract is accepted, a member of the DB cares for resolving the issue by executing the will of Sithis - not unlike angels in christian faith.

DaveMoeDee · June 2016

I would like to see a Dawnguard skill line down the road, They can also remove the WW/Vamp stuff from the Undaunted skills when they release that (though I don't believe Dawnguard cares about WW). While ww should be able to be Dawnguard, it would be a little sketchy to let ww have an extra skill line that is anti vamp.

I think that the Dawnguard skill line and being a vamp can't be mutually exclusive unless they allow the DLC to be fully played as a vamp through a parallel game path like in the Skyrim DLC (where I sided with the vamps). Dailies could be universal, or split into 3 types based on Dawnguard/vamp/ww.

The advantage of having a Dawnguard skill line is that it would allow making ww/vamp skill lines more powerful so long as the mutually exclusive Dawnguard skill line has equal power. ZOS would not longer have to worry about making ww/vamp skills a net zero (by cancelling out power gains with debuffs). The major problem though with this suggestion is that it seems problematic if DLC is require for non-supernaturals to get power parity with supernaturals.

luen79rwb17_ESO · June 2016

I totally agree with this.

I know TG and DB are classic ES features but I'm probably with the minority of people who doesn't get thrilled with these thievery and assasination stuff but there's nothing else to do and not much choice.
"Play the way you want" doesn't apply to this part of the game, or maybe it does if you just skip it...?

Too bad the enforcer aspect of the justice system is on hold, so I totally support the OPs idea.

Kendaric · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

The Dark Brotherhood is clearly considered evil by Tamriel's populace, even though they do not view themselves as such.
The Thieves' Guild, on the other hand, is not evil (and is not viewed as evil). They are criminals, sure, but that doesn't make them evil. In terms of D&D alignments (for those familiar with them) I'd consider the DB somewhere between lawful evil and neutral evil, while the TG is more along the lines of chaotic neutral.

I still think it would have been good to have the option to join the other side (Iron Wheel/Order of the Hour) and/or to destroy the organisation from within (like it was in TES V: Skyrim).

Dark Brotherhood is not evil, they help people who want someone to disappear forever and those have most of the time pretty good reasons, why they want that. Normally people do not want someone to disappear forever, if those are not in one or the other way bad people. Those, who do the ritual, ask basically for divine intervention in the matter and if the contract is accepted, a member of the DB cares for resolving the issue by executing the will of Sithis - not unlike angels in christian faith.

You can try to justify it all you want @Lysette, but a group that murders people for money (which the DB does, as stated by Elam Dral) is certainly not good. Also, anyone can perform the Black Sacrament to appeal to the Night Mother and the DB doesn''t care about the reason or who the target is, they will perform the murder regardless. This, once again, is clearly a sign of an evil group.
Hiding behind a divine mandate doesn't make them any less evil.

P.S:: Having undead guardians about doesn't exactly make the DB good either...

Refuse2GrowUp · June 2016

Are the Fighters Guild and Mages Guild not "good guy" guilds?

Though not a guild, are the Undaunted not good?

Kendaric · June 2016

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Are the Fighters Guild and Mages Guild not "good guy" guilds?

Though not a guild, are the Undaunted not good?

The Fighter's Guild is certainly leaning towards "good", but essentially they're mercenaries fulfilling contracts for money. The Mage's Guild are scholars and engage in some dubious practices/studies, thus being more neutral.
The Undaunted seem to me like they're thrillseekers without any clear moral compass.

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2016

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Are the Fighters Guild and Mages Guild not "good guy" guilds?

Though not a guild, are the Undaunted not good?

No to all.

1) Fighters Guild are mercenaries for hire. This makes them a step above the Dark Brotherhood, but they'll take just about any contract which makes them little better than Bandits at times.

2) The Mages Guild in its desire to understand its universe is willing to enslave all kinds of spirits and creatures' souls, burning them up for enchantments or commanding them as slaves. This doesn't seem like a morally upright association.

3) The Undaunted are in it for the kicks. While its very possible to be heroic and Undaunted, the organization does not have any higher purpose. They're in it for the thrill and glory of defeating frightening monsters, Undaunted.

Nothing here exists with the code of honor that you'd find in any Knightly Order, House Redoran, Buoyant Armigers, Order of Stendarr, Imperial Legion etc.

Duiwel · June 2016

Ever heard of the Fighter's Guild OP?

j3crow · June 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Are the Fighters Guild and Mages Guild not "good guy" guilds?

Though not a guild, are the Undaunted not good?

No to all.

1) Fighters Guild are mercenaries for hire. This makes them a step above the Dark Brotherhood, but they'll take just about any contract which makes them little better than Bandits at times.

2) The Mages Guild in its desire to understand its universe is willing to enslave all kinds of spirits and creatures' souls, burning them up for enchantments or commanding them as slaves. This doesn't seem like a morally upright association.

3) The Undaunted are in it for the kicks. While its very possible to be heroic and Undaunted, the organization does not have any higher purpose. They're in it for the thrill and glory of defeating frightening monsters, Undaunted.

Nothing here exists with the code of honor that you'd find in any Knightly Order, House Redoran, Buoyant Armigers, Order of Stendarr, Imperial Legion etc.

That has been my point as well. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the main story content, as well as the new DLCs. I 'get' why they are fun. But we need something for -actual- Good Guys. I am a big fan of the Dawnguard. But all of the above are good choices too

JohnnyQuantum · June 2016

+ 1

I know that this (and most games) revolve around combat (and hence killing), but having said that, would like a good or lawful aligned guild with repeatable content.

Even though it didn't revolve around a guild, Orsinium where we are helping the orcs rebuild, could be considered a 'good' aligned DLC.

Include my vote for a good/lawful aligned guild!

PrinceOfWorms · June 2016

Mages guild? Fighters guild?
???

Luigi_Vampa · June 2016

My only problem is the last two, or three total DLCs so obviously favor Nightblades. Thieves Guild and DB are so much easier on Nightblades and IC is a Nightblade playground. I have had enough of sneaking around. I never really enjoy thieving and stealth assassination gameplay. Wrothgar was fine as it didn't favor any specific gameplay. Besides in VMA, no class so obviously outshines any other. I haven't actually finished either Thieves guild or DB because brooding, dark, thieves and assassins are so boring

SteveCampsOut · June 2016

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Are the Fighters Guild and Mages Guild not "good guy" guilds?

Though not a guild, are the Undaunted not good?

Frankly I find the undaunted to be a bunch of drunks who never really leave the bars. They send you off to loot all the treasure and do the dirty work while they just drink up all day long.

Luigi_Vampa · June 2016

As for the people sayong Fighters and Mages Guilds; those are more neutral guilds. The Fighters Guild is really just a mercenary group. They fulfill contracts as long as they don't violate the law. They only got put on the deadric hunt because of Sees-All-Colors set it up.

The Mages Guild also doesn't really care about right and wrong or good and evil. They care about studying magic. They help fight Molag because of self-preservation, not for the common good.

It sounds like the OP wants a guild that has a rightious cause. A guild that wants to fight evil and protect Nirn. The FG and MG don't really serve this function.

Lysette · June 2016

Typhoios wrote: »

As for the people sayong Fighters and Mages Guilds; those are more neutral guilds. The Fighters Guild is really just a mercenary group. They fulfill contracts as long as they don't violate the law. They only got put on the deadric hunt because of Sees-All-Colors set it up.

The Mages Guild also doesn't really care about right and wrong or good and evil. They care about studying magic. They help fight Molag because of self-preservation, not for the common good.

It sounds like the OP wants a guild that has a rightious cause. A guild that wants to fight evil and protect Nirn. The FG and MG don't really serve this function.

Such a group would be unnatural anyway - every group, regardless how "good" they try to paint themselves, has self-interest and as well an opponent, who does not see them as a "good" organisation. Even organizations like the red-cross are not just beneficial - if you ever have gotten a bill from them for minor help, you will see, how much of a self-interest they have.

Blud · June 2016

Woeler wrote: »

I actually like stealing and murdering more than being the cliché hero one always plays in >99% of games.

Good for you. You get a cookie. But some people don't want to be a cliche bad guy, either. Some people want to think about the choices they make.

I don't really like killing an innocent at all. I'm not complaining and no one is forcing me to do it. If you want to, go ahead. But I think it is possible in the ESO universe to have some good guilds dedicated to helping and preserving rather than to death and destruction.

Lysette · June 2016

Blud wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

I actually like stealing and murdering more than being the cliché hero one always plays in >99% of games.

Good for you. You get a cookie. But some people don't want to be a cliche bad guy, either. Some people want to think about the choices they make.

I don't really like killing an innocent at all. I'm not complaining and no one is forcing me to do it. If you want to, go ahead. But I think it is possible in the ESO universe to have some good guilds dedicated to helping and preserving rather than to death and destruction.

The problem is, that even a good deed now, can have bad effects later on. That english soldier, who had the chance in WW1 to kill AH and did not - well, you know how this turned out in the end - it costed the lives of millions. Doing good now, can have pretty bad effects later - and doing bad now, might have positive effects in the future in the wake of it. The sooner one realizes, that there is no absolute good or bad, the more relaxed someone can live.

Luigi_Vampa · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

As for the people sayong Fighters and Mages Guilds; those are more neutral guilds. The Fighters Guild is really just a mercenary group. They fulfill contracts as long as they don't violate the law. They only got put on the deadric hunt because of Sees-All-Colors set it up.

The Mages Guild also doesn't really care about right and wrong or good and evil. They care about studying magic. They help fight Molag because of self-preservation, not for the common good.

It sounds like the OP wants a guild that has a rightious cause. A guild that wants to fight evil and protect Nirn. The FG and MG don't really serve this function.

Such a group would be unnatural anyway - every group, regardless how "good" they try to paint themselves, has self-interest and as well an opponent, who does not see them as a "good" organisation. Even organizations like the red-cross are not just beneficial - if you ever have gotten a bill from them for minor help, you will see, how much of a self-interest they have.

All the person is asking for is for a group like The Knights of the Nine, Vigilants of Stendarr, The Dawnguard etc... Their cause is to wipe out "evil". I'm not naive in thinking that a group can be intrinsically good. There is always self-interest at heart. You keep splitting hairs. I'm not saying we need a guild that is philosophically the epitime of "good". I'm not interested in a debate of good and evil. It is obvious the desire of a "good guy" guild would be one that seeks to destroy the undead and wipe out necromancy, or destroy all deadra worshippers, or werewolf hunters, or bring the Justice of the Eight Divines to the heretics etc... Now like you said these guilds aren't necessarilly good depending on perspective, but their causes are generally thought of as just and good by mosto of the population, ie: killing a Vampire/Werewolf/Undead in town is not a crime in Tamriel.

Lysette · June 2016

Typhoios wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

As for the people sayong Fighters and Mages Guilds; those are more neutral guilds. The Fighters Guild is really just a mercenary group. They fulfill contracts as long as they don't violate the law. They only got put on the deadric hunt because of Sees-All-Colors set it up.

The Mages Guild also doesn't really care about right and wrong or good and evil. They care about studying magic. They help fight Molag because of self-preservation, not for the common good.

It sounds like the OP wants a guild that has a rightious cause. A guild that wants to fight evil and protect Nirn. The FG and MG don't really serve this function.

Such a group would be unnatural anyway - every group, regardless how "good" they try to paint themselves, has self-interest and as well an opponent, who does not see them as a "good" organisation. Even organizations like the red-cross are not just beneficial - if you ever have gotten a bill from them for minor help, you will see, how much of a self-interest they have.

All the person is asking for is for a group like The Knights of the Nine, Vigilants of Stendarr, The Dawnguard etc... Their cause is to wipe out "evil". I'm not naive in thinking that a group can be intrinsically good. There is always self-interest at heart. You keep splitting hairs. I'm not saying we need a guild that is philosophically the epitime of "good". I'm not interested in a debate of good and evil. It is obvious the desire of a "good guy" guild would be one that seeks to destroy the undead and wipe out necromancy, or destroy all deadra worshippers, or werewolf hunters, or bring the Justice of the Eight Divines to the heretics etc... Now like you said these guilds aren't necessarilly good depending on perspective, but their causes are generally thought of as just and good by mosto of the population, ie: killing a Vampire/Werewolf/Undead in town is not a crime in Tamriel.

To burn so called "witches" on stakes alive was once as well seen as just and good by most of the population. This does not make it a good deed, if the majority is insane and suffers from a mass delution. There is no "good guy" guild, because there is not something like a good guy in the first place. The worst are those, who claim themselves to be able to fill that role, because they tend towards bigotry and make the lives of others a nightmare.

deepseamk20b14_ESO · June 2016

What about the blades? I mean, they obviously wouldn't be searching for the dragon born this time around lol, but maybe they could do something useful with themselves. Were they around during this era?

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2016

Typhoios wrote: »

My only problem is the last two, or three total DLCs so obviously favor Nightblades. Thieves Guild and DB are so much easier on Nightblades and IC is a Nightblade playground. I have had enough of sneaking around. I never really enjoy thieving and stealth assassination gameplay. Wrothgar was fine as it didn't favor any specific gameplay. Besides in VMA, no class so obviously outshines any other. I haven't actually finished either Thieves guild or DB because brooding, dark, thieves and assassins are so boring

Now that Nightblades have access to multiple shields, it seems rather fair that other classes have access to a Cloak. I agree with this wholeheartedly. The Nightblade class would still be the best at Cloaking, but honestly there's no reason they don't put a cloak skill in the Legerdemain skill line and be done with it. Really, it makes absolutely no sense. Everyone should be able to play this role with any character.

Luigi_Vampa · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Typhoios wrote: »

As for the people sayong Fighters and Mages Guilds; those are more neutral guilds. The Fighters Guild is really just a mercenary group. They fulfill contracts as long as they don't violate the law. They only got put on the deadric hunt because of Sees-All-Colors set it up.

The Mages Guild also doesn't really care about right and wrong or good and evil. They care about studying magic. They help fight Molag because of self-preservation, not for the common good.

It sounds like the OP wants a guild that has a rightious cause. A guild that wants to fight evil and protect Nirn. The FG and MG don't really serve this function.

Such a group would be unnatural anyway - every group, regardless how "good" they try to paint themselves, has self-interest and as well an opponent, who does not see them as a "good" organisation. Even organizations like the red-cross are not just beneficial - if you ever have gotten a bill from them for minor help, you will see, how much of a self-interest they have.

All the person is asking for is for a group like The Knights of the Nine, Vigilants of Stendarr, The Dawnguard etc... Their cause is to wipe out "evil". I'm not naive in thinking that a group can be intrinsically good. There is always self-interest at heart. You keep splitting hairs. I'm not saying we need a guild that is philosophically the epitime of "good". I'm not interested in a debate of good and evil. It is obvious the desire of a "good guy" guild would be one that seeks to destroy the undead and wipe out necromancy, or destroy all deadra worshippers, or werewolf hunters, or bring the Justice of the Eight Divines to the heretics etc... Now like you said these guilds aren't necessarilly good depending on perspective, but their causes are generally thought of as just and good by mosto of the population, ie: killing a Vampire/Werewolf/Undead in town is not a crime in Tamriel.

To burn so called "witches" on stakes alive was once as well seen as just and good by most of the population. This does not make it a good deed, if the majority is insane and suffers from a mass delution. There is no "good guy" guild, because there is not something like a good guy in the first place. The worst are those, who claim themselves to be able to fill that role, because they tend towards bigotry and make the lives of others a nightmare.

Since it is obvious you are missing the point, I'll say it plainly. I don't think the OP was saying he wanted a guild that is philosophically "good". He wants a guild that is considered "good" by most of the citizens of Tamriel. The intent was not to talk about the nature of good and evil. In generic fantasy terms: Thieves and Assassins = Bad. Priests and Knights = Good. No reason to bring real life philosophical arguments into the equation. You know what the OP meant and are purposefully being obtuse. But, just to avoid confusion, I'll take the word good out of it. What was meant is a guild based on the Eight Divines. A guild thats main goal is to help citizens of Tamriel. A guild founded upon ideas of justice, honor etc... That this might all be flawed notions and propaganda and they are really just corupt zealots is not really relevent to the conversation.