Can we have a "good guy" guild in the future?

Slurg · June 2016

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

After betraying all moral values of my character with the thieves guild and now dark brotherhood, i would love to see a good guild like the companions or dawnguard from skyrim.
Maybe some imperial order, followers of stendarr or even something like the knights of the nine ( well eight, tiber septim is coming in 200 years in eso timeline )
Hell, even those knights of the hour are fine after some reforms.

A bard guild would be fine too. Saving tamriel with the power of music.

I'm all for something like this, sometime in the future after we have more DLCs with proper sized zones.

I found the required "kill an innocent" quest to start DB to be distasteful and was reluctant to do it. Then I decided, since this is an RPG, my vampire elf is pretty evil and would not have any moral qualms about doing this. So that's the character I'm having do this quest line. It's not me, it's her.

Iluvrien · June 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

Why not pick and choose which characters complete which content? Have a good character, an evil character, and a morally ambiguous character.

I'm trying to decide on an evil character to level... I'm thinking a Bosmer Bow Sorc right now...

You are right, it's all about choice. And right now I am choosing to not touch TG or DB at all because I just can't get my head around playing evil characters (and everything I have heard suggests that morally ambiguous is about the best you can be).

...and for the record I ignored the TG and DB in every game from Morrowind to ESO... except for 5 minutes in Skyrim when I joined the TG and then consequently abandoned the quest line when I found it uncomfortable. In the second quest.

So count me in for ZOS providing multiple choices to approach future content, because this darker-than-dark approach ain't for me.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · June 2016

Aeula wrote: »

We don't really need any more guilds, it's time for more zones like Orsinium.

It is time for a true evil DLC.
There are zones enough for the time being, there is however absolutely no evil.

TheShadowScout · June 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

Why not pick and choose which characters complete which content? Have a good character, an evil character, and a morally ambiguous character...

Well, that IS the way to do it in an RPG. And one more reason why I would love to see "exclusive" choices (as in, either join the good guys, ro join the bad guys, but not the game-usual stuff that allows a character to be both a savior of the world cheered by all the people and yet at the same time public enemy number one feared by all the people... I mean, sure, some get cheered and feared by all the people at the same time, but Doctor Doom definitely is a different license!

)

Slurg wrote: »

I found the required "kill an innocent" quest to start DB to be distasteful and was reluctant to do it. Then I decided, since this is an RPG, my vampire elf is pretty evil and would not have any moral qualms about doing this. So that's the character I'm having do this quest line. It's not me, it's her.

Yup, that's what RP is all about.
Like mentioned, I enjoy playing my characters a bit different, so I have some who do both thievery and asssassination, some who may steal a little on occasion, but only kill enemies in a fight, and not murder innocents, and some who would do neither and much rather have a job as guard and tell the criminal scum to "stop right there"...

As for the future, I really would love to see more "guild-sized DLC"... I mean, sure, we want more like Orsinium as well, which will be coming, there is a lot in the works from what we know, from Clockwork City to Mephalas Realm, Murkmire and beyond that which hasn't yet made its way into the rumor mill... but it'd be great to have more diverse stuff you know? Say, with them going for four DLCs per year... why not a even spread? One orsinium-tastic story in a large area, one for the PvPlayers like IC, one for groupy stuff like craglorn, and one guild-sized with a small area yet expaning the guild choices and with it character diversity option?

Oh, well... guess we'll see how it goes...

THEDKEXPERIENCE · June 2016

Irony: Wanting to continue being "heroic" after committing mass genocide across Tamriel.

I've got over 13,000 PVP kills and probably a million NPC kills. Even if you're the most pious player ever you have some blood on your hands somewhere. Most of those bandits were just hanging out in their cave chilling with their buddies. Admit it, your hero is a mass murderer too.

Teridaxus · June 2016

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Irony: Wanting to continue being "heroic" after committing mass genocide across Tamriel.

I've got over 13,000 PVP kills and probably a million NPC kills. Even if you're the most pious player ever you have some blood on your hands somewhere. Most of those bandits were just hanging out in their cave chilling with their buddies. Admit it, your hero is a mass murderer too.

Altmer and dunmer don't count. *washes blood away*

bloodenragedb14_ESO · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

Id rather a expansion on the current guilds, more mages guild quests, more fighters. they need end game relevance

They cannot have end game relevance, because fighter guild and mage guild are neutral in the alliance war. They state that clearly from the very beginning, when you join those guilds.

it worries me that you think pvp is the only thing to do end game, i was talking about the dungeon solo quests in the dlc, the world boss quests, none of these things are alliance related.

but please, continue to think only in your pvp centric world, that will certianally make the game better (this is sarcasm)

mwo1480 · June 2016

playing db lot spoils that next dlc may be about

morag tong

so dont think they will add "good guilds" soon

Rex-Umbra · June 2016

Next DLC should expand fighters and mages guild. Also there is Guilds in every zone and most small towns always wondered why as they don't offer quests or anything.

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2016

Muizer wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

After betraying all moral values of my character with the thieves guild and now dark brotherhood, i would love to see a good guild like the companions or dawnguard from skyrim.

Nah, not the companions. For all their lofty ideals, they're still werewolves. Give us the Silver Hand instead.

For most of the existence of the Companions they were not Werewolves. I do not think they are currently werewolves in this era.

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2016

TheShadowScout wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

After betraying all moral values of my character with the thieves guild and now dark brotherhood, i would love to see a good guild like the companions or dawnguard from skyrim...

My main is a nasty bounty huntress, so she enjoyed those criminal activities, a lot. My secondary on the other hand is a naive and decent librarian, who doesn't even open thieves troves when he stumbles over them... so in his name, I wholly agree with this one!

And thus, I would dearly love to have "opposites" guilds, giving people a choice which side to join, and once the choice is made, locking out the "opposed" activities (meaning if you join one of these "lawful" guilds, you can forget about ever getting allowed into the outlaw refugee again, and those places might have justice-strength guards added to them which attack those goodie-two-greaves on sight... and thieves troves would be inaccessibe, something like that... even tresspass-entering a house would be impossible, but there might be an special "search warrant" item that allows them to do it without trespassing for those quest-related needful searches of other peoples property or something)...
...like...
...some crimefighter guild that only characters who don't do the nasty thievery or murdering can join. Might even be the Iron Wheel, in the aftermath of the TG storyline, as they return to their home base reeling from the embarrassment they got into both as they were being played for fools, and as they made a lot of bad blood through overzealous cracking down... they likely would need to seek new recruits, to cover the, uhm, losses incurred in the hew's bane mission, and might have to deal with internal strife as the overzealous "punishment" faction tries to make a play for leadership, opposed by the more responsible "lawkeeper" faction which has most its members from the newbies who are all idealistic and righteous without yet going "bad cop" - which naturally would be just the spot for a player character to enter the picture...
...or...
...some scholars guild that does not deal with murder or theft, or those who would stoop to either, but in their pursuit of scholarly endevours (aka, tomb raiding) came into conflict with (criminal) organizations they proved ill equipped to handle, and thus open their doors to new members seeking those who pair scholarly qualifications with noteworthy battle prowess to brave both archeological expeditions that deal with the more unruly of tom denizens as well as deal with dangers of a more recent date which may be aiming to give all the scholarly bookwyrms a terminal wedgie...
...or...
...and order of oh so noble knights, who take quests for those who have noone else to turn to, as long as their cause is just and honorable. It may not pay anything in terms of gold, but in return the knights place would allow their stalward fighters free gear repair, a daily ration of gear like foodstuffs, potions, repair kits, and the order would hand them some donated equipment for each quest they bring to closure. Damsels in distress delivered from doom, fiendish villains vexed in every way, mangy murderous monsters massacred, that sort of thing for the bards to sing songs about, and all for the honor and glory, and not like those pesky mercenaries of the fighters guild who do it for profit... and of course, a story line dealing with those less honorable abusing the noble knights for their own nefarious plots. And yes, it might just as well be the knights of the hour in the aftermath of the DB storyline.
That sort of thing...
...by the way...
...while we are taking deeds the bards might sing about, I definitely also would want to see a bardic guild. Though traditionally bards often have had a somewhat loose view of the concept of legal ownership (or marriage vows for that matter), so they definitely would not bat an eye at some thief joining them - as long as they have a good singing voice, and steal with style! But a bardic guild filled with song and charm (and quests involving a lot of charmwork and rougeish escapades) as well as a music based skill line... count me in for a DLC I'd buy!

This is all well and good, but I would hope that such decisions could be changed later. I've done TG and DB on some characters that I would not have If given a CHOICE otherwise. I don't want to miss out on two or three whole DLC storylines just because opposing factions were not available. I think this is more something they ought to think about for the future, or at least a way of renouncing former ways. This is an MMO this isn't Skyrim. I'd like the choices to matter, but it needs to be within reason.

Abeille · June 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

Why not pick and choose which characters complete which content? Have a good character, an evil character, and a morally ambiguous character.

I'm trying to decide on an evil character to level... I'm thinking a Bosmer Bow Sorc right now...

That's what I do. I made a Breton Vampire NB back in January with the sole purpose of making her part of the Dark Brotherhood.

And my Bosmer Bow/DW NB that I made back on launch always had a mischievous personality that went well with the Thieves Guild.

My other seven characters would NEVER get anywhere close any of these guilds. It is not their thing at all. They are not necessarily goody two-shoes, but they wouldn't join an organization that has the main objective of committing crimes.

And if we had a Bard College, only my main character would make that content, because she is supposed to be a bard while my other characters are not musically inclined.

It makes me happy that the skill lines of the DB and TG are only passives that benefits that play style they promote specifically, because then I don't feel the need to run them with other characters, unlike Mages and Fighters guilds.

Wreuntzylla · June 2016

Slurg wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

After betraying all moral values of my character with the thieves guild and now dark brotherhood, i would love to see a good guild like the companions or dawnguard from skyrim.
Maybe some imperial order, followers of stendarr or even something like the knights of the nine ( well eight, tiber septim is coming in 200 years in eso timeline )
Hell, even those knights of the hour are fine after some reforms.

A bard guild would be fine too. Saving tamriel with the power of music.

I'm all for something like this, sometime in the future after we have more DLCs with proper sized zones.

I found the required "kill an innocent" quest to start DB to be distasteful and was reluctant to do it. Then I decided, since this is an RPG, my vampire elf is pretty evil and would not have any moral qualms about doing this. So that's the character I'm having do this quest line. It's not me, it's her.

I still have not started the quest.

Protect the innocent, defend the helpless. Kill the innocent, maim the helpless.qq Arghhhhhh.

Iluvrien wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Why not pick and choose which characters complete which content? Have a good character, an evil character, and a morally ambiguous character.

I'm trying to decide on an evil character to level... I'm thinking a Bosmer Bow Sorc right now...

You are right, it's all about choice. And right now I am choosing to not touch TG or DB at all because I just can't get my head around playing evil characters (and everything I have heard suggests that morally ambiguous is about the best you can be).

...and for the record I ignored the TG and DB in every game from Morrowind to ESO... except for 5 minutes in Skyrim when I joined the TG and then consequently abandoned the quest line when I found it uncomfortable. In the second quest.

So count me in for ZOS providing multiple choices to approach future content, because this darker-than-dark approach ain't for me.

It's a problem when achievements and gear are behind the curtain.

I think because the NPCs always come back, I can rationalize that we are all Aedra and cannot be killed. Maybe...

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Irony: Wanting to continue being "heroic" after committing mass genocide across Tamriel.

I've got over 13,000 PVP kills and probably a million NPC kills. Even if you're the most pious player ever you have some blood on your hands somewhere. Most of those bandits were just hanging out in their cave chilling with their buddies. Admit it, your hero is a mass murderer too.

Killing is not a problem for me. Sometimes it's not only necessary, it's your lawful job. But killing the innocent is a tough one to get over.

j3crow · June 2016

TheShadowScout wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

After betraying all moral values of my character with the thieves guild and now dark brotherhood, i would love to see a good guild like the companions or dawnguard from skyrim...

My main is a nasty bounty huntress, so she enjoyed those criminal activities, a lot. My secondary on the other hand is a naive and decent librarian, who doesn't even open thieves troves when he stumbles over them... so in his name, I wholly agree with this one!

And thus, I would dearly love to have "opposites" guilds, giving people a choice which side to join, and once the choice is made, locking out the "opposed" activities (meaning if you join one of these "lawful" guilds, you can forget about ever getting allowed into the outlaw refugee again, and those places might have justice-strength guards added to them which attack those goodie-two-greaves on sight... and thieves troves would be inaccessibe, something like that... even tresspass-entering a house would be impossible, but there might be an special "search warrant" item that allows them to do it without trespassing for those quest-related needful searches of other peoples property or something)...
...like...
...some crimefighter guild that only characters who don't do the nasty thievery or murdering can join. Might even be the Iron Wheel, in the aftermath of the TG storyline, as they return to their home base reeling from the embarrassment they got into both as they were being played for fools, and as they made a lot of bad blood through overzealous cracking down... they likely would need to seek new recruits, to cover the, uhm, losses incurred in the hew's bane mission, and might have to deal with internal strife as the overzealous "punishment" faction tries to make a play for leadership, opposed by the more responsible "lawkeeper" faction which has most its members from the newbies who are all idealistic and righteous without yet going "bad cop" - which naturally would be just the spot for a player character to enter the picture...
...or...
...some scholars guild that does not deal with murder or theft, or those who would stoop to either, but in their pursuit of scholarly endevours (aka, tomb raiding) came into conflict with (criminal) organizations they proved ill equipped to handle, and thus open their doors to new members seeking those who pair scholarly qualifications with noteworthy battle prowess to brave both archeological expeditions that deal with the more unruly of tom denizens as well as deal with dangers of a more recent date which may be aiming to give all the scholarly bookwyrms a terminal wedgie...
...or...
...and order of oh so noble knights, who take quests for those who have noone else to turn to, as long as their cause is just and honorable. It may not pay anything in terms of gold, but in return the knights place would allow their stalward fighters free gear repair, a daily ration of gear like foodstuffs, potions, repair kits, and the order would hand them some donated equipment for each quest they bring to closure. Damsels in distress delivered from doom, fiendish villains vexed in every way, mangy murderous monsters massacred, that sort of thing for the bards to sing songs about, and all for the honor and glory, and not like those pesky mercenaries of the fighters guild who do it for profit... and of course, a story line dealing with those less honorable abusing the noble knights for their own nefarious plots. And yes, it might just as well be the knights of the hour in the aftermath of the DB storyline.
That sort of thing...
...by the way...
...while we are taking deeds the bards might sing about, I definitely also would want to see a bardic guild. Though traditionally bards often have had a somewhat loose view of the concept of legal ownership (or marriage vows for that matter), so they definitely would not bat an eye at some thief joining them - as long as they have a good singing voice, and steal with style! But a bardic guild filled with song and charm (and quests involving a lot of charmwork and rougeish escapades) as well as a music based skill line... count me in for a DLC I'd buy!

These are all great ideas. I'm sticking to wanting to see the Dawnguard in-game, but these ideas are great too

I think the big thing is that there were no 'good guy' choices. As mentioned, there are 'good guy' factions in the DLCs that could have been more utilyzed.

I like the new DLCs, but I don't want just 'bad guy' stuff. Some of us actually like being the good guys. And I mean truly the good guys. Not just doing-good-because-you-have-to, to get your soul back, or because your mercenary guild told you to

yumyum · June 2016

There was the "Blades"
[url="http://"]http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Blades_(Skyrim)[/url]

Gidorick · June 2016

Iluvrien wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Why not pick and choose which characters complete which content? Have a good character, an evil character, and a morally ambiguous character.

I'm trying to decide on an evil character to level... I'm thinking a Bosmer Bow Sorc right now...

You are right, it's all about choice. And right now I am choosing to not touch TG or DB at all because I just can't get my head around playing evil characters (and everything I have heard suggests that morally ambiguous is about the best you can be).

...and for the record I ignored the TG and DB in every game from Morrowind to ESO... except for 5 minutes in Skyrim when I joined the TG and then consequently abandoned the quest line when I found it uncomfortable. In the second quest.

So count me in for ZOS providing multiple choices to approach future content, because this darker-than-dark approach ain't for me.

You and I play very similarly @Iluvrien . The only thieves guild content I've ever played (including ESO... my Thief is hasn't finished the main story yet) is Oblivion. Why? My morally upright character went insane after he tool the Mantle of the Mad God... His sense of reasoning and his sense of right and wrong twisted.

Lysette · June 2016

TheShadowScout wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

After betraying all moral values of my character with the thieves guild and now dark brotherhood, i would love to see a good guild like the companions or dawnguard from skyrim...

My main is a nasty bounty huntress, so she enjoyed those criminal activities, a lot. My secondary on the other hand is a naive and decent librarian, who doesn't even open thieves troves when he stumbles over them... so in his name, I wholly agree with this one!

And thus, I would dearly love to have "opposites" guilds, giving people a choice which side to join, and once the choice is made, locking out the "opposed" activities (meaning if you join one of these "lawful" guilds, you can forget about ever getting allowed into the outlaw refugee again, and those places might have justice-strength guards added to them which attack those goodie-two-greaves on sight... and thieves troves would be inaccessibe, something like that... even tresspass-entering a house would be impossible, but there might be an special "search warrant" item that allows them to do it without trespassing for those quest-related needful searches of other peoples property or something)...
...like...
...some crimefighter guild that only characters who don't do the nasty thievery or murdering can join. Might even be the Iron Wheel, in the aftermath of the TG storyline, as they return to their home base reeling from the embarrassment they got into both as they were being played for fools, and as they made a lot of bad blood through overzealous cracking down... they likely would need to seek new recruits, to cover the, uhm, losses incurred in the hew's bane mission, and might have to deal with internal strife as the overzealous "punishment" faction tries to make a play for leadership, opposed by the more responsible "lawkeeper" faction which has most its members from the newbies who are all idealistic and righteous without yet going "bad cop" - which naturally would be just the spot for a player character to enter the picture...
...or...
...some scholars guild that does not deal with murder or theft, or those who would stoop to either, but in their pursuit of scholarly endevours (aka, tomb raiding) came into conflict with (criminal) organizations they proved ill equipped to handle, and thus open their doors to new members seeking those who pair scholarly qualifications with noteworthy battle prowess to brave both archeological expeditions that deal with the more unruly of tom denizens as well as deal with dangers of a more recent date which may be aiming to give all the scholarly bookwyrms a terminal wedgie...
...or...
...and order of oh so noble knights, who take quests for those who have noone else to turn to, as long as their cause is just and honorable. It may not pay anything in terms of gold, but in return the knights place would allow their stalward fighters free gear repair, a daily ration of gear like foodstuffs, potions, repair kits, and the order would hand them some donated equipment for each quest they bring to closure. Damsels in distress delivered from doom, fiendish villains vexed in every way, mangy murderous monsters massacred, that sort of thing for the bards to sing songs about, and all for the honor and glory, and not like those pesky mercenaries of the fighters guild who do it for profit... and of course, a story line dealing with those less honorable abusing the noble knights for their own nefarious plots. And yes, it might just as well be the knights of the hour in the aftermath of the DB storyline.
That sort of thing...
...by the way...
...while we are taking deeds the bards might sing about, I definitely also would want to see a bardic guild. Though traditionally bards often have had a somewhat loose view of the concept of legal ownership (or marriage vows for that matter), so they definitely would not bat an eye at some thief joining them - as long as they have a good singing voice, and steal with style! But a bardic guild filled with song and charm (and quests involving a lot of charmwork and rougeish escapades) as well as a music based skill line... count me in for a DLC I'd buy!

Life is not white and black - it is greyish - I am not fond of any mechanics, which would lock my characters into a certain playstyle or moral - moral is permanent choice making, despite the fact that a bad deed is eventually easy to achieve and lucrative. This is what makes moral choices difficult - but when locked into a role, there is no longer any choice to make. A person locked into a role, without the ability to do bad, is no longer a moral person, because it cannot make any moral choices in the matter anymore - the initial choice does not count, because it could not be reverted once made.

Take marriage as an example - if the vows made could never be broken, where is the challenge of a moral choice in this, not to cheat. If it is impossible to cheat, than this is not a moral choice, but just impossible to cheat. But if there is temptation and you do not cheat on your partner nevertheless and you make these kind of choices over and over and over again with other temptations, then you are a moral person - but not if you would not have a choice at all - that would be easy mode.

Lysette · June 2016

Slurg wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

After betraying all moral values of my character with the thieves guild and now dark brotherhood, i would love to see a good guild like the companions or dawnguard from skyrim.
Maybe some imperial order, followers of stendarr or even something like the knights of the nine ( well eight, tiber septim is coming in 200 years in eso timeline )
Hell, even those knights of the hour are fine after some reforms.

A bard guild would be fine too. Saving tamriel with the power of music.

I'm all for something like this, sometime in the future after we have more DLCs with proper sized zones.

I found the required "kill an innocent" quest to start DB to be distasteful and was reluctant to do it. Then I decided, since this is an RPG, my vampire elf is pretty evil and would not have any moral qualms about doing this. So that's the character I'm having do this quest line. It's not me, it's her.

It was that way in Oblivion as well - Lucian LaChance showed just up, after you had killed an innocent person and you went to sleep - then he appeared and made that invitation, gave you a special blade and a target - it is basically the same ritual in DB.

Lysette · June 2016

Iluvrien wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Why not pick and choose which characters complete which content? Have a good character, an evil character, and a morally ambiguous character.

I'm trying to decide on an evil character to level... I'm thinking a Bosmer Bow Sorc right now...

You are right, it's all about choice. And right now I am choosing to not touch TG or DB at all because I just can't get my head around playing evil characters (and everything I have heard suggests that morally ambiguous is about the best you can be).

...and for the record I ignored the TG and DB in every game from Morrowind to ESO... except for 5 minutes in Skyrim when I joined the TG and then consequently abandoned the quest line when I found it uncomfortable. In the second quest.

So count me in for ZOS providing multiple choices to approach future content, because this darker-than-dark approach ain't for me.

The 2nd quest in Skyrim - that one, where you just bully a couple of business owners in Riften?- You don't have to kill anyone there, just make them comply to the terms of "protection" - it is more a mafia like quest. But you are right in this, that in Skyrim the TG is a bunch of losers, I did not stay long in that guild, they are scum.

Lysette · June 2016

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

Id rather a expansion on the current guilds, more mages guild quests, more fighters. they need end game relevance

They cannot have end game relevance, because fighter guild and mage guild are neutral in the alliance war. They state that clearly from the very beginning, when you join those guilds.

it worries me that you think pvp is the only thing to do end game, i was talking about the dungeon solo quests in the dlc, the world boss quests, none of these things are alliance related.

but please, continue to think only in your pvp centric world, that will certianally make the game better (this is sarcasm)

I am not a pvp player in ESO - I might try the IC, but otherwise I am not interested into pointless pvp in ESO. I am as well not interested in that kind of end game content, which you mentioned - reason, it has no impact on the game world at all. To me ESO is an expanding theme park with story-driven content, which is mainly about the provinces of Tamriel. I do not see, why fighter's or mage guild should have more relevance in this - FG is not taking sides in the war - what kind of warriors are those, if they do not participate in the war? - and MG is not even so far developed, that they could teach spells - they have even a hard time to find a sanctuary to study in peace - that are book worms, they study magic, they do not practice nor teach it yet. As a result both are not taken seriously yet - they are irrelevant by these reasons IMO.

Edit: but maybe some day, when there will be spell-crafting, the MG will finally have a purpose - so far they just let me run errands and provide nothing of value in return. And FG are like minutemen in Fallout 4 - big mouth, but they let you do the chores for them. And again nothing of value in return.

SteveCampsOut · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

After betraying all moral values of my character with the thieves guild and now dark brotherhood, i would love to see a good guild like the companions or dawnguard from skyrim...

My main is a nasty bounty huntress, so she enjoyed those criminal activities, a lot. My secondary on the other hand is a naive and decent librarian, who doesn't even open thieves troves when he stumbles over them... so in his name, I wholly agree with this one!

And thus, I would dearly love to have "opposites" guilds, giving people a choice which side to join, and once the choice is made, locking out the "opposed" activities (meaning if you join one of these "lawful" guilds, you can forget about ever getting allowed into the outlaw refugee again, and those places might have justice-strength guards added to them which attack those goodie-two-greaves on sight... and thieves troves would be inaccessibe, something like that... even tresspass-entering a house would be impossible, but there might be an special "search warrant" item that allows them to do it without trespassing for those quest-related needful searches of other peoples property or something)...
...like...
...some crimefighter guild that only characters who don't do the nasty thievery or murdering can join. Might even be the Iron Wheel, in the aftermath of the TG storyline, as they return to their home base reeling from the embarrassment they got into both as they were being played for fools, and as they made a lot of bad blood through overzealous cracking down... they likely would need to seek new recruits, to cover the, uhm, losses incurred in the hew's bane mission, and might have to deal with internal strife as the overzealous "punishment" faction tries to make a play for leadership, opposed by the more responsible "lawkeeper" faction which has most its members from the newbies who are all idealistic and righteous without yet going "bad cop" - which naturally would be just the spot for a player character to enter the picture...
...or...
...some scholars guild that does not deal with murder or theft, or those who would stoop to either, but in their pursuit of scholarly endevours (aka, tomb raiding) came into conflict with (criminal) organizations they proved ill equipped to handle, and thus open their doors to new members seeking those who pair scholarly qualifications with noteworthy battle prowess to brave both archeological expeditions that deal with the more unruly of tom denizens as well as deal with dangers of a more recent date which may be aiming to give all the scholarly bookwyrms a terminal wedgie...
...or...
...and order of oh so noble knights, who take quests for those who have noone else to turn to, as long as their cause is just and honorable. It may not pay anything in terms of gold, but in return the knights place would allow their stalward fighters free gear repair, a daily ration of gear like foodstuffs, potions, repair kits, and the order would hand them some donated equipment for each quest they bring to closure. Damsels in distress delivered from doom, fiendish villains vexed in every way, mangy murderous monsters massacred, that sort of thing for the bards to sing songs about, and all for the honor and glory, and not like those pesky mercenaries of the fighters guild who do it for profit... and of course, a story line dealing with those less honorable abusing the noble knights for their own nefarious plots. And yes, it might just as well be the knights of the hour in the aftermath of the DB storyline.
That sort of thing...
...by the way...
...while we are taking deeds the bards might sing about, I definitely also would want to see a bardic guild. Though traditionally bards often have had a somewhat loose view of the concept of legal ownership (or marriage vows for that matter), so they definitely would not bat an eye at some thief joining them - as long as they have a good singing voice, and steal with style! But a bardic guild filled with song and charm (and quests involving a lot of charmwork and rougeish escapades) as well as a music based skill line... count me in for a DLC I'd buy!

Life is not white and black - it is greyish - I am not fond of any mechanics, which would lock my characters into a certain playstyle or moral - moral is permanent choice making, despite the fact that a bad deed is eventually easy to achieve and lucrative. This is what makes moral choices difficult - but when locked into a role, there is no longer any choice to make. A person locked into a role, without the ability to do bad, is no longer a moral person, because it cannot make any moral choices in the matter anymore - the initial choice does not count, because it could not be reverted once made.

Take marriage as an example - if the vows made could never be broken, where is the challenge of a moral choice in this, not to cheat. If it is impossible to cheat, than this is not a moral choice, but just impossible to cheat. But if there is temptation and you do not cheat on your partner nevertheless and you make these kind of choices over and over and over again with other temptations, then you are a moral person - but not if you would not have a choice at all - that would be easy mode.

When the only choices you are given are all bad, you're just as locked in as this picture you're trying to falsely paint. There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking for some light morality choices to be added to the game. I can't even count how many times the choices I've been given in this game have been equally abhorrent to my character's nature.

Lysette · June 2016

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

After betraying all moral values of my character with the thieves guild and now dark brotherhood, i would love to see a good guild like the companions or dawnguard from skyrim...

My main is a nasty bounty huntress, so she enjoyed those criminal activities, a lot. My secondary on the other hand is a naive and decent librarian, who doesn't even open thieves troves when he stumbles over them... so in his name, I wholly agree with this one!

And thus, I would dearly love to have "opposites" guilds, giving people a choice which side to join, and once the choice is made, locking out the "opposed" activities (meaning if you join one of these "lawful" guilds, you can forget about ever getting allowed into the outlaw refugee again, and those places might have justice-strength guards added to them which attack those goodie-two-greaves on sight... and thieves troves would be inaccessibe, something like that... even tresspass-entering a house would be impossible, but there might be an special "search warrant" item that allows them to do it without trespassing for those quest-related needful searches of other peoples property or something)...
...like...
...some crimefighter guild that only characters who don't do the nasty thievery or murdering can join. Might even be the Iron Wheel, in the aftermath of the TG storyline, as they return to their home base reeling from the embarrassment they got into both as they were being played for fools, and as they made a lot of bad blood through overzealous cracking down... they likely would need to seek new recruits, to cover the, uhm, losses incurred in the hew's bane mission, and might have to deal with internal strife as the overzealous "punishment" faction tries to make a play for leadership, opposed by the more responsible "lawkeeper" faction which has most its members from the newbies who are all idealistic and righteous without yet going "bad cop" - which naturally would be just the spot for a player character to enter the picture...
...or...
...some scholars guild that does not deal with murder or theft, or those who would stoop to either, but in their pursuit of scholarly endevours (aka, tomb raiding) came into conflict with (criminal) organizations they proved ill equipped to handle, and thus open their doors to new members seeking those who pair scholarly qualifications with noteworthy battle prowess to brave both archeological expeditions that deal with the more unruly of tom denizens as well as deal with dangers of a more recent date which may be aiming to give all the scholarly bookwyrms a terminal wedgie...
...or...
...and order of oh so noble knights, who take quests for those who have noone else to turn to, as long as their cause is just and honorable. It may not pay anything in terms of gold, but in return the knights place would allow their stalward fighters free gear repair, a daily ration of gear like foodstuffs, potions, repair kits, and the order would hand them some donated equipment for each quest they bring to closure. Damsels in distress delivered from doom, fiendish villains vexed in every way, mangy murderous monsters massacred, that sort of thing for the bards to sing songs about, and all for the honor and glory, and not like those pesky mercenaries of the fighters guild who do it for profit... and of course, a story line dealing with those less honorable abusing the noble knights for their own nefarious plots. And yes, it might just as well be the knights of the hour in the aftermath of the DB storyline.
That sort of thing...
...by the way...
...while we are taking deeds the bards might sing about, I definitely also would want to see a bardic guild. Though traditionally bards often have had a somewhat loose view of the concept of legal ownership (or marriage vows for that matter), so they definitely would not bat an eye at some thief joining them - as long as they have a good singing voice, and steal with style! But a bardic guild filled with song and charm (and quests involving a lot of charmwork and rougeish escapades) as well as a music based skill line... count me in for a DLC I'd buy!

Life is not white and black - it is greyish - I am not fond of any mechanics, which would lock my characters into a certain playstyle or moral - moral is permanent choice making, despite the fact that a bad deed is eventually easy to achieve and lucrative. This is what makes moral choices difficult - but when locked into a role, there is no longer any choice to make. A person locked into a role, without the ability to do bad, is no longer a moral person, because it cannot make any moral choices in the matter anymore - the initial choice does not count, because it could not be reverted once made.

Take marriage as an example - if the vows made could never be broken, where is the challenge of a moral choice in this, not to cheat. If it is impossible to cheat, than this is not a moral choice, but just impossible to cheat. But if there is temptation and you do not cheat on your partner nevertheless and you make these kind of choices over and over and over again with other temptations, then you are a moral person - but not if you would not have a choice at all - that would be easy mode.

When the only choices you are given are all bad, you're just as locked in as this picture you're trying to falsely paint. There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking for some light morality choices to be added to the game. I can't even count how many times the choices I've been given in this game have been equally abhorrent to my character's nature.

Then just refuse to do either - that would be the moral choice to make in this case. If you find reasons, to do them nevertheless, you enter the gray zone - and be a normal person, who does not make always just good or always just bad decisions. The truth is in the middle somewhere - major choices should be good, minor ones can eventually be bad ones - this makes still for a good character.

Edit: the whole game is not filled with good choices - you are an adventure, who takes the lives of creatures and humanoids by more or less valid reasons. Or as well just for the fun of doing it. Is this necessarily a bad moral?- I don't think so, but the reasoning is up to everyone itself. There is no absolute "good" or "bad" in life at all - what is "good" now, can be "bad" seen from the future and the other way round. When you get to this point, to realize, that "good" and "bad" are relative term, you will have a much either time with making moral decisions.

SteveCampsOut · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

After betraying all moral values of my character with the thieves guild and now dark brotherhood, i would love to see a good guild like the companions or dawnguard from skyrim...

My main is a nasty bounty huntress, so she enjoyed those criminal activities, a lot. My secondary on the other hand is a naive and decent librarian, who doesn't even open thieves troves when he stumbles over them... so in his name, I wholly agree with this one!

And thus, I would dearly love to have "opposites" guilds, giving people a choice which side to join, and once the choice is made, locking out the "opposed" activities (meaning if you join one of these "lawful" guilds, you can forget about ever getting allowed into the outlaw refugee again, and those places might have justice-strength guards added to them which attack those goodie-two-greaves on sight... and thieves troves would be inaccessibe, something like that... even tresspass-entering a house would be impossible, but there might be an special "search warrant" item that allows them to do it without trespassing for those quest-related needful searches of other peoples property or something)...
...like...
...some crimefighter guild that only characters who don't do the nasty thievery or murdering can join. Might even be the Iron Wheel, in the aftermath of the TG storyline, as they return to their home base reeling from the embarrassment they got into both as they were being played for fools, and as they made a lot of bad blood through overzealous cracking down... they likely would need to seek new recruits, to cover the, uhm, losses incurred in the hew's bane mission, and might have to deal with internal strife as the overzealous "punishment" faction tries to make a play for leadership, opposed by the more responsible "lawkeeper" faction which has most its members from the newbies who are all idealistic and righteous without yet going "bad cop" - which naturally would be just the spot for a player character to enter the picture...
...or...
...some scholars guild that does not deal with murder or theft, or those who would stoop to either, but in their pursuit of scholarly endevours (aka, tomb raiding) came into conflict with (criminal) organizations they proved ill equipped to handle, and thus open their doors to new members seeking those who pair scholarly qualifications with noteworthy battle prowess to brave both archeological expeditions that deal with the more unruly of tom denizens as well as deal with dangers of a more recent date which may be aiming to give all the scholarly bookwyrms a terminal wedgie...
...or...
...and order of oh so noble knights, who take quests for those who have noone else to turn to, as long as their cause is just and honorable. It may not pay anything in terms of gold, but in return the knights place would allow their stalward fighters free gear repair, a daily ration of gear like foodstuffs, potions, repair kits, and the order would hand them some donated equipment for each quest they bring to closure. Damsels in distress delivered from doom, fiendish villains vexed in every way, mangy murderous monsters massacred, that sort of thing for the bards to sing songs about, and all for the honor and glory, and not like those pesky mercenaries of the fighters guild who do it for profit... and of course, a story line dealing with those less honorable abusing the noble knights for their own nefarious plots. And yes, it might just as well be the knights of the hour in the aftermath of the DB storyline.
That sort of thing...
...by the way...
...while we are taking deeds the bards might sing about, I definitely also would want to see a bardic guild. Though traditionally bards often have had a somewhat loose view of the concept of legal ownership (or marriage vows for that matter), so they definitely would not bat an eye at some thief joining them - as long as they have a good singing voice, and steal with style! But a bardic guild filled with song and charm (and quests involving a lot of charmwork and rougeish escapades) as well as a music based skill line... count me in for a DLC I'd buy!

Life is not white and black - it is greyish - I am not fond of any mechanics, which would lock my characters into a certain playstyle or moral - moral is permanent choice making, despite the fact that a bad deed is eventually easy to achieve and lucrative. This is what makes moral choices difficult - but when locked into a role, there is no longer any choice to make. A person locked into a role, without the ability to do bad, is no longer a moral person, because it cannot make any moral choices in the matter anymore - the initial choice does not count, because it could not be reverted once made.

Take marriage as an example - if the vows made could never be broken, where is the challenge of a moral choice in this, not to cheat. If it is impossible to cheat, than this is not a moral choice, but just impossible to cheat. But if there is temptation and you do not cheat on your partner nevertheless and you make these kind of choices over and over and over again with other temptations, then you are a moral person - but not if you would not have a choice at all - that would be easy mode.

When the only choices you are given are all bad, you're just as locked in as this picture you're trying to falsely paint. There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking for some light morality choices to be added to the game. I can't even count how many times the choices I've been given in this game have been equally abhorrent to my character's nature.

Then just refuse to do either - that would be the moral choice to make in this case. If you find reasons, to do them nevertheless, you enter the gray zone - and be a normal person, who does not make always just good or always just bad decisions. The truth is in the middle somewhere - major choices should be good, minor ones can eventually be bad ones - this makes still for a good character.

Way to totally ignore the point here Lysette.

Lysette · June 2016

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

After betraying all moral values of my character with the thieves guild and now dark brotherhood, i would love to see a good guild like the companions or dawnguard from skyrim...

My main is a nasty bounty huntress, so she enjoyed those criminal activities, a lot. My secondary on the other hand is a naive and decent librarian, who doesn't even open thieves troves when he stumbles over them... so in his name, I wholly agree with this one!

And thus, I would dearly love to have "opposites" guilds, giving people a choice which side to join, and once the choice is made, locking out the "opposed" activities (meaning if you join one of these "lawful" guilds, you can forget about ever getting allowed into the outlaw refugee again, and those places might have justice-strength guards added to them which attack those goodie-two-greaves on sight... and thieves troves would be inaccessibe, something like that... even tresspass-entering a house would be impossible, but there might be an special "search warrant" item that allows them to do it without trespassing for those quest-related needful searches of other peoples property or something)...
...like...
...some crimefighter guild that only characters who don't do the nasty thievery or murdering can join. Might even be the Iron Wheel, in the aftermath of the TG storyline, as they return to their home base reeling from the embarrassment they got into both as they were being played for fools, and as they made a lot of bad blood through overzealous cracking down... they likely would need to seek new recruits, to cover the, uhm, losses incurred in the hew's bane mission, and might have to deal with internal strife as the overzealous "punishment" faction tries to make a play for leadership, opposed by the more responsible "lawkeeper" faction which has most its members from the newbies who are all idealistic and righteous without yet going "bad cop" - which naturally would be just the spot for a player character to enter the picture...
...or...
...some scholars guild that does not deal with murder or theft, or those who would stoop to either, but in their pursuit of scholarly endevours (aka, tomb raiding) came into conflict with (criminal) organizations they proved ill equipped to handle, and thus open their doors to new members seeking those who pair scholarly qualifications with noteworthy battle prowess to brave both archeological expeditions that deal with the more unruly of tom denizens as well as deal with dangers of a more recent date which may be aiming to give all the scholarly bookwyrms a terminal wedgie...
...or...
...and order of oh so noble knights, who take quests for those who have noone else to turn to, as long as their cause is just and honorable. It may not pay anything in terms of gold, but in return the knights place would allow their stalward fighters free gear repair, a daily ration of gear like foodstuffs, potions, repair kits, and the order would hand them some donated equipment for each quest they bring to closure. Damsels in distress delivered from doom, fiendish villains vexed in every way, mangy murderous monsters massacred, that sort of thing for the bards to sing songs about, and all for the honor and glory, and not like those pesky mercenaries of the fighters guild who do it for profit... and of course, a story line dealing with those less honorable abusing the noble knights for their own nefarious plots. And yes, it might just as well be the knights of the hour in the aftermath of the DB storyline.
That sort of thing...
...by the way...
...while we are taking deeds the bards might sing about, I definitely also would want to see a bardic guild. Though traditionally bards often have had a somewhat loose view of the concept of legal ownership (or marriage vows for that matter), so they definitely would not bat an eye at some thief joining them - as long as they have a good singing voice, and steal with style! But a bardic guild filled with song and charm (and quests involving a lot of charmwork and rougeish escapades) as well as a music based skill line... count me in for a DLC I'd buy!

Life is not white and black - it is greyish - I am not fond of any mechanics, which would lock my characters into a certain playstyle or moral - moral is permanent choice making, despite the fact that a bad deed is eventually easy to achieve and lucrative. This is what makes moral choices difficult - but when locked into a role, there is no longer any choice to make. A person locked into a role, without the ability to do bad, is no longer a moral person, because it cannot make any moral choices in the matter anymore - the initial choice does not count, because it could not be reverted once made.

Take marriage as an example - if the vows made could never be broken, where is the challenge of a moral choice in this, not to cheat. If it is impossible to cheat, than this is not a moral choice, but just impossible to cheat. But if there is temptation and you do not cheat on your partner nevertheless and you make these kind of choices over and over and over again with other temptations, then you are a moral person - but not if you would not have a choice at all - that would be easy mode.

When the only choices you are given are all bad, you're just as locked in as this picture you're trying to falsely paint. There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking for some light morality choices to be added to the game. I can't even count how many times the choices I've been given in this game have been equally abhorrent to my character's nature.

Then just refuse to do either - that would be the moral choice to make in this case. If you find reasons, to do them nevertheless, you enter the gray zone - and be a normal person, who does not make always just good or always just bad decisions. The truth is in the middle somewhere - major choices should be good, minor ones can eventually be bad ones - this makes still for a good character.

Way to totally ignore the point here Lysette.

A good way to experience the relativity of "good" and"bad" is the comedy "sliding doors" - watch it, it teaches something about this - this movie changed my view on what is "good" and "bad" and made my life a lot easier in regards to moral choices.

Edit: and no, I do not ignore it - I am just telling you, that the moment you consider a bad thing a possible choice, just because you want to do it, you start to lie to yourself - you want to stay a moral person, while in your mind you are already on the way to make an amoral decision and are just trying to find a good reason to do so - just admit that, be human, and you will have much easier time around. The harder part is to really be a moral person, but this will exclude you from a lot of fun - this is what makes it so hard to be a morally good person. Allow for gray, that is what I am suggesting, do not try to be just white.

j3crow · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

After betraying all moral values of my character with the thieves guild and now dark brotherhood, i would love to see a good guild like the companions or dawnguard from skyrim...

My main is a nasty bounty huntress, so she enjoyed those criminal activities, a lot. My secondary on the other hand is a naive and decent librarian, who doesn't even open thieves troves when he stumbles over them... so in his name, I wholly agree with this one!

And thus, I would dearly love to have "opposites" guilds, giving people a choice which side to join, and once the choice is made, locking out the "opposed" activities (meaning if you join one of these "lawful" guilds, you can forget about ever getting allowed into the outlaw refugee again, and those places might have justice-strength guards added to them which attack those goodie-two-greaves on sight... and thieves troves would be inaccessibe, something like that... even tresspass-entering a house would be impossible, but there might be an special "search warrant" item that allows them to do it without trespassing for those quest-related needful searches of other peoples property or something)...
...like...
...some crimefighter guild that only characters who don't do the nasty thievery or murdering can join. Might even be the Iron Wheel, in the aftermath of the TG storyline, as they return to their home base reeling from the embarrassment they got into both as they were being played for fools, and as they made a lot of bad blood through overzealous cracking down... they likely would need to seek new recruits, to cover the, uhm, losses incurred in the hew's bane mission, and might have to deal with internal strife as the overzealous "punishment" faction tries to make a play for leadership, opposed by the more responsible "lawkeeper" faction which has most its members from the newbies who are all idealistic and righteous without yet going "bad cop" - which naturally would be just the spot for a player character to enter the picture...
...or...
...some scholars guild that does not deal with murder or theft, or those who would stoop to either, but in their pursuit of scholarly endevours (aka, tomb raiding) came into conflict with (criminal) organizations they proved ill equipped to handle, and thus open their doors to new members seeking those who pair scholarly qualifications with noteworthy battle prowess to brave both archeological expeditions that deal with the more unruly of tom denizens as well as deal with dangers of a more recent date which may be aiming to give all the scholarly bookwyrms a terminal wedgie...
...or...
...and order of oh so noble knights, who take quests for those who have noone else to turn to, as long as their cause is just and honorable. It may not pay anything in terms of gold, but in return the knights place would allow their stalward fighters free gear repair, a daily ration of gear like foodstuffs, potions, repair kits, and the order would hand them some donated equipment for each quest they bring to closure. Damsels in distress delivered from doom, fiendish villains vexed in every way, mangy murderous monsters massacred, that sort of thing for the bards to sing songs about, and all for the honor and glory, and not like those pesky mercenaries of the fighters guild who do it for profit... and of course, a story line dealing with those less honorable abusing the noble knights for their own nefarious plots. And yes, it might just as well be the knights of the hour in the aftermath of the DB storyline.
That sort of thing...
...by the way...
...while we are taking deeds the bards might sing about, I definitely also would want to see a bardic guild. Though traditionally bards often have had a somewhat loose view of the concept of legal ownership (or marriage vows for that matter), so they definitely would not bat an eye at some thief joining them - as long as they have a good singing voice, and steal with style! But a bardic guild filled with song and charm (and quests involving a lot of charmwork and rougeish escapades) as well as a music based skill line... count me in for a DLC I'd buy!

Life is not white and black - it is greyish - I am not fond of any mechanics, which would lock my characters into a certain playstyle or moral - moral is permanent choice making, despite the fact that a bad deed is eventually easy to achieve and lucrative. This is what makes moral choices difficult - but when locked into a role, there is no longer any choice to make. A person locked into a role, without the ability to do bad, is no longer a moral person, because it cannot make any moral choices in the matter anymore - the initial choice does not count, because it could not be reverted once made.

Take marriage as an example - if the vows made could never be broken, where is the challenge of a moral choice in this, not to cheat. If it is impossible to cheat, than this is not a moral choice, but just impossible to cheat. But if there is temptation and you do not cheat on your partner nevertheless and you make these kind of choices over and over and over again with other temptations, then you are a moral person - but not if you would not have a choice at all - that would be easy mode.

When the only choices you are given are all bad, you're just as locked in as this picture you're trying to falsely paint. There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking for some light morality choices to be added to the game. I can't even count how many times the choices I've been given in this game have been equally abhorrent to my character's nature.

Then just refuse to do either - that would be the moral choice to make in this case. If you find reasons, to do them nevertheless, you enter the gray zone - and be a normal person, who does not make always just good or always just bad decisions. The truth is in the middle somewhere - major choices should be good, minor ones can eventually be bad ones - this makes still for a good character.

Way to totally ignore the point here Lysette.

A good way to experience the relativity of "good" and"bad" is the comedy "sliding doors" - watch it, it teaches something about this - this movie changed my view on what is "good" and "bad" and made my life a lot easier in regards to moral choices.

Edit: and no, I do not ignore it - I am just telling you, that the moment you consider a bad thing a possible choice, just because you want to do it, you start to lie to yourself - you want to stay a moral person, while in your mind you are already on the way to make an amoral decision and are just trying to find a good reason to do so - just admit that, be human, and you will have much easier time around. The harder part is to really be a moral person, but this will exclude you from a lot of fun - this is what makes it so hard to be a morally good person. Allow for gray, that is what I am suggesting, do not try to be just a white knight.

Ok, for one thing... Its a game. What the OP has simply asked for is a DLC with a different moral tone.

But more to your point. Yes, life is often filled with shades of Grey. And yes, there is a place to discern the relative impact of an act, and the value versus harm of the lessor of evils. But none the less, there exist a higher morality. The relative moralist position such as the one you articulated, is how things like attrocities and genocides happen. There is a point in which there is a line that can not be crossed. And no. I don't smply rationalize my choices to accomidate them. Yes, humans do that... weak and morally deficient humans. People I would not trust. People I certainly would not deploy to combat with.

You can only entertain relative moralist positions if you are living in a soft, insular and protected life afforded by a technologically advanced civilization. In other circumstances, your moral choices become very pronounced.

That is why some people will use human shields, and some people will make themselves human shields.

We live in an era that celebrates the villain and the anti-hero. People gravitate to such ideas, becasue they feel inadequate and can not live up to a higher idea they feel is presented to them by society as a whole. Granted, that heroic image is usually so contrived as to be impossible. But that does not change the overall point

Korah_Eaglecry · June 2016

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

After betraying all moral values of my character with the thieves guild and now dark brotherhood, i would love to see a good guild like the companions or dawnguard from skyrim.
Maybe some imperial order, followers of stendarr or even something like the knights of the nine ( well eight, tiber septim is coming in 200 years in eso timeline )
Hell, even those knights of the hour are fine after some reforms.

A bard guild would be fine too. Saving tamriel with the power of music.

Well lets see here.

Fighters Guild - Fighting the Daedric influences of Molag Bal / Good Guys: Check
Mages Guild - Trying to restore an island so that the Mages Guild can stay pacifist in the Three Banners War / Good Guys: Check

Thieves Guild - Robs mostly very rich people to sell to other rich people / Bad Guys: ???
Dark Brotherhood - Murdering bad people on the orders of a Daedric Prince / Bad Guys: I guess.

But sure, we totally dont have good guy guilds in game. Its totally not like we havent had that in game from day one and theyre finally adding things for those who would prefer to maybe cross that line from time to time.

Lysette · June 2016

j3crow wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

After betraying all moral values of my character with the thieves guild and now dark brotherhood, i would love to see a good guild like the companions or dawnguard from skyrim...

My main is a nasty bounty huntress, so she enjoyed those criminal activities, a lot. My secondary on the other hand is a naive and decent librarian, who doesn't even open thieves troves when he stumbles over them... so in his name, I wholly agree with this one!

And thus, I would dearly love to have "opposites" guilds, giving people a choice which side to join, and once the choice is made, locking out the "opposed" activities (meaning if you join one of these "lawful" guilds, you can forget about ever getting allowed into the outlaw refugee again, and those places might have justice-strength guards added to them which attack those goodie-two-greaves on sight... and thieves troves would be inaccessibe, something like that... even tresspass-entering a house would be impossible, but there might be an special "search warrant" item that allows them to do it without trespassing for those quest-related needful searches of other peoples property or something)...
...like...
...some crimefighter guild that only characters who don't do the nasty thievery or murdering can join. Might even be the Iron Wheel, in the aftermath of the TG storyline, as they return to their home base reeling from the embarrassment they got into both as they were being played for fools, and as they made a lot of bad blood through overzealous cracking down... they likely would need to seek new recruits, to cover the, uhm, losses incurred in the hew's bane mission, and might have to deal with internal strife as the overzealous "punishment" faction tries to make a play for leadership, opposed by the more responsible "lawkeeper" faction which has most its members from the newbies who are all idealistic and righteous without yet going "bad cop" - which naturally would be just the spot for a player character to enter the picture...
...or...
...some scholars guild that does not deal with murder or theft, or those who would stoop to either, but in their pursuit of scholarly endevours (aka, tomb raiding) came into conflict with (criminal) organizations they proved ill equipped to handle, and thus open their doors to new members seeking those who pair scholarly qualifications with noteworthy battle prowess to brave both archeological expeditions that deal with the more unruly of tom denizens as well as deal with dangers of a more recent date which may be aiming to give all the scholarly bookwyrms a terminal wedgie...
...or...
...and order of oh so noble knights, who take quests for those who have noone else to turn to, as long as their cause is just and honorable. It may not pay anything in terms of gold, but in return the knights place would allow their stalward fighters free gear repair, a daily ration of gear like foodstuffs, potions, repair kits, and the order would hand them some donated equipment for each quest they bring to closure. Damsels in distress delivered from doom, fiendish villains vexed in every way, mangy murderous monsters massacred, that sort of thing for the bards to sing songs about, and all for the honor and glory, and not like those pesky mercenaries of the fighters guild who do it for profit... and of course, a story line dealing with those less honorable abusing the noble knights for their own nefarious plots. And yes, it might just as well be the knights of the hour in the aftermath of the DB storyline.
That sort of thing...
...by the way...
...while we are taking deeds the bards might sing about, I definitely also would want to see a bardic guild. Though traditionally bards often have had a somewhat loose view of the concept of legal ownership (or marriage vows for that matter), so they definitely would not bat an eye at some thief joining them - as long as they have a good singing voice, and steal with style! But a bardic guild filled with song and charm (and quests involving a lot of charmwork and rougeish escapades) as well as a music based skill line... count me in for a DLC I'd buy!

Life is not white and black - it is greyish - I am not fond of any mechanics, which would lock my characters into a certain playstyle or moral - moral is permanent choice making, despite the fact that a bad deed is eventually easy to achieve and lucrative. This is what makes moral choices difficult - but when locked into a role, there is no longer any choice to make. A person locked into a role, without the ability to do bad, is no longer a moral person, because it cannot make any moral choices in the matter anymore - the initial choice does not count, because it could not be reverted once made.

Take marriage as an example - if the vows made could never be broken, where is the challenge of a moral choice in this, not to cheat. If it is impossible to cheat, than this is not a moral choice, but just impossible to cheat. But if there is temptation and you do not cheat on your partner nevertheless and you make these kind of choices over and over and over again with other temptations, then you are a moral person - but not if you would not have a choice at all - that would be easy mode.

When the only choices you are given are all bad, you're just as locked in as this picture you're trying to falsely paint. There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking for some light morality choices to be added to the game. I can't even count how many times the choices I've been given in this game have been equally abhorrent to my character's nature.

Then just refuse to do either - that would be the moral choice to make in this case. If you find reasons, to do them nevertheless, you enter the gray zone - and be a normal person, who does not make always just good or always just bad decisions. The truth is in the middle somewhere - major choices should be good, minor ones can eventually be bad ones - this makes still for a good character.

Way to totally ignore the point here Lysette.

A good way to experience the relativity of "good" and"bad" is the comedy "sliding doors" - watch it, it teaches something about this - this movie changed my view on what is "good" and "bad" and made my life a lot easier in regards to moral choices.

Edit: and no, I do not ignore it - I am just telling you, that the moment you consider a bad thing a possible choice, just because you want to do it, you start to lie to yourself - you want to stay a moral person, while in your mind you are already on the way to make an amoral decision and are just trying to find a good reason to do so - just admit that, be human, and you will have much easier time around. The harder part is to really be a moral person, but this will exclude you from a lot of fun - this is what makes it so hard to be a morally good person. Allow for gray, that is what I am suggesting, do not try to be just a white knight.

Ok, for one thing... Its a game. What the OP has simply asked for is a DLC with a different moral tone.

But more to your point. Yes, life is often filled with shades of Grey. But none the less, there exist a higher morality. The relative moralist position such as the one you articulated, is how things like attrocities and genocides happen. There is a point in which there is a line that can not be crossed. And no. I don't smply rationalize my choices to accomidate them. Yes, humans do that... weak and morally deficient humans. People I would not trust. People I certainly would not deploy to combat with.

You can only entertain relatively moralist positions if you are living in a soft, insular and protected life afforded by a technologically adavnced civilization. In other circumstances, your moral choices become very pronounced.

That is why some people will use human shields, and some people will make themselves human shields.

We live in an era that celebrates the villain and the anti-hero. People gravitate to such ideas, becasue they feel inadequate and can not live up to a higher idea they feel is presented to them by society as a whole. Granted, that heroic image is usually so contrived as to be impossible. But that does not change the overall point

You are right in most things - but I will give you something else to think about. If you are always the good guy with a reliable good moral, you make yourself vulnerable, because you are highly predictable in what you do. You can be abused. That is one of the reasons why in nature nothing is perfect for example - perfect means too predictable to survive - life evolves between "too perfect to survive" and "not perfect enough too compete" - an always moral person behaves in a too perfect way, and this makes him vulnerable, sooner or later someone will abuse him. That is why allowing for grey is a necessity to be successful.

j3crow · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

j3crow wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

After betraying all moral values of my character with the thieves guild and now dark brotherhood, i would love to see a good guild like the companions or dawnguard from skyrim...

My main is a nasty bounty huntress, so she enjoyed those criminal activities, a lot. My secondary on the other hand is a naive and decent librarian, who doesn't even open thieves troves when he stumbles over them... so in his name, I wholly agree with this one!

And thus, I would dearly love to have "opposites" guilds, giving people a choice which side to join, and once the choice is made, locking out the "opposed" activities (meaning if you join one of these "lawful" guilds, you can forget about ever getting allowed into the outlaw refugee again, and those places might have justice-strength guards added to them which attack those goodie-two-greaves on sight... and thieves troves would be inaccessibe, something like that... even tresspass-entering a house would be impossible, but there might be an special "search warrant" item that allows them to do it without trespassing for those quest-related needful searches of other peoples property or something)...
...like...
...some crimefighter guild that only characters who don't do the nasty thievery or murdering can join. Might even be the Iron Wheel, in the aftermath of the TG storyline, as they return to their home base reeling from the embarrassment they got into both as they were being played for fools, and as they made a lot of bad blood through overzealous cracking down... they likely would need to seek new recruits, to cover the, uhm, losses incurred in the hew's bane mission, and might have to deal with internal strife as the overzealous "punishment" faction tries to make a play for leadership, opposed by the more responsible "lawkeeper" faction which has most its members from the newbies who are all idealistic and righteous without yet going "bad cop" - which naturally would be just the spot for a player character to enter the picture...
...or...
...some scholars guild that does not deal with murder or theft, or those who would stoop to either, but in their pursuit of scholarly endevours (aka, tomb raiding) came into conflict with (criminal) organizations they proved ill equipped to handle, and thus open their doors to new members seeking those who pair scholarly qualifications with noteworthy battle prowess to brave both archeological expeditions that deal with the more unruly of tom denizens as well as deal with dangers of a more recent date which may be aiming to give all the scholarly bookwyrms a terminal wedgie...
...or...
...and order of oh so noble knights, who take quests for those who have noone else to turn to, as long as their cause is just and honorable. It may not pay anything in terms of gold, but in return the knights place would allow their stalward fighters free gear repair, a daily ration of gear like foodstuffs, potions, repair kits, and the order would hand them some donated equipment for each quest they bring to closure. Damsels in distress delivered from doom, fiendish villains vexed in every way, mangy murderous monsters massacred, that sort of thing for the bards to sing songs about, and all for the honor and glory, and not like those pesky mercenaries of the fighters guild who do it for profit... and of course, a story line dealing with those less honorable abusing the noble knights for their own nefarious plots. And yes, it might just as well be the knights of the hour in the aftermath of the DB storyline.
That sort of thing...
...by the way...
...while we are taking deeds the bards might sing about, I definitely also would want to see a bardic guild. Though traditionally bards often have had a somewhat loose view of the concept of legal ownership (or marriage vows for that matter), so they definitely would not bat an eye at some thief joining them - as long as they have a good singing voice, and steal with style! But a bardic guild filled with song and charm (and quests involving a lot of charmwork and rougeish escapades) as well as a music based skill line... count me in for a DLC I'd buy!

Life is not white and black - it is greyish - I am not fond of any mechanics, which would lock my characters into a certain playstyle or moral - moral is permanent choice making, despite the fact that a bad deed is eventually easy to achieve and lucrative. This is what makes moral choices difficult - but when locked into a role, there is no longer any choice to make. A person locked into a role, without the ability to do bad, is no longer a moral person, because it cannot make any moral choices in the matter anymore - the initial choice does not count, because it could not be reverted once made.

Take marriage as an example - if the vows made could never be broken, where is the challenge of a moral choice in this, not to cheat. If it is impossible to cheat, than this is not a moral choice, but just impossible to cheat. But if there is temptation and you do not cheat on your partner nevertheless and you make these kind of choices over and over and over again with other temptations, then you are a moral person - but not if you would not have a choice at all - that would be easy mode.

When the only choices you are given are all bad, you're just as locked in as this picture you're trying to falsely paint. There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking for some light morality choices to be added to the game. I can't even count how many times the choices I've been given in this game have been equally abhorrent to my character's nature.

Then just refuse to do either - that would be the moral choice to make in this case. If you find reasons, to do them nevertheless, you enter the gray zone - and be a normal person, who does not make always just good or always just bad decisions. The truth is in the middle somewhere - major choices should be good, minor ones can eventually be bad ones - this makes still for a good character.

Way to totally ignore the point here Lysette.

A good way to experience the relativity of "good" and"bad" is the comedy "sliding doors" - watch it, it teaches something about this - this movie changed my view on what is "good" and "bad" and made my life a lot easier in regards to moral choices.

Edit: and no, I do not ignore it - I am just telling you, that the moment you consider a bad thing a possible choice, just because you want to do it, you start to lie to yourself - you want to stay a moral person, while in your mind you are already on the way to make an amoral decision and are just trying to find a good reason to do so - just admit that, be human, and you will have much easier time around. The harder part is to really be a moral person, but this will exclude you from a lot of fun - this is what makes it so hard to be a morally good person. Allow for gray, that is what I am suggesting, do not try to be just a white knight.

Ok, for one thing... Its a game. What the OP has simply asked for is a DLC with a different moral tone.

But more to your point. Yes, life is often filled with shades of Grey. But none the less, there exist a higher morality. The relative moralist position such as the one you articulated, is how things like attrocities and genocides happen. There is a point in which there is a line that can not be crossed. And no. I don't smply rationalize my choices to accomidate them. Yes, humans do that... weak and morally deficient humans. People I would not trust. People I certainly would not deploy to combat with.

You can only entertain relatively moralist positions if you are living in a soft, insular and protected life afforded by a technologically adavnced civilization. In other circumstances, your moral choices become very pronounced.

That is why some people will use human shields, and some people will make themselves human shields.

We live in an era that celebrates the villain and the anti-hero. People gravitate to such ideas, becasue they feel inadequate and can not live up to a higher idea they feel is presented to them by society as a whole. Granted, that heroic image is usually so contrived as to be impossible. But that does not change the overall point

You are right in most things - but I will give you something else to think about. If you are always the good guy with a reliable good moral, you make yourself vulnerable, because you are highly predictable in what you do. You can be abused. That is one of the reasons why in nature nothing is perfect for example - perfect means too predictable to survive - life evolves between "too perfect to survive" and "not perfect enough too compete" - a always moral person behaves in a too perfect way, and this make him vulnerable, sooner or later someone will abuse him. That is why allowing for grey is a necessity to be successful.

Thats why there is such a thing as competing harms. 'Good' does not automatically equate to 'stupid' or 'inflexible'. Thats why good guys still believe in things like the value of Intelligence and the use of Spies, or the use of deception to minimize the loss of Life. In the case of the DLC content, the examples a re pretty clear, and don't require a lot of discernment

SteveCampsOut · June 2016

Lysette wrote: »

j3crow wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

After betraying all moral values of my character with the thieves guild and now dark brotherhood, i would love to see a good guild like the companions or dawnguard from skyrim...

My main is a nasty bounty huntress, so she enjoyed those criminal activities, a lot. My secondary on the other hand is a naive and decent librarian, who doesn't even open thieves troves when he stumbles over them... so in his name, I wholly agree with this one!

And thus, I would dearly love to have "opposites" guilds, giving people a choice which side to join, and once the choice is made, locking out the "opposed" activities (meaning if you join one of these "lawful" guilds, you can forget about ever getting allowed into the outlaw refugee again, and those places might have justice-strength guards added to them which attack those goodie-two-greaves on sight... and thieves troves would be inaccessibe, something like that... even tresspass-entering a house would be impossible, but there might be an special "search warrant" item that allows them to do it without trespassing for those quest-related needful searches of other peoples property or something)...
...like...
...some crimefighter guild that only characters who don't do the nasty thievery or murdering can join. Might even be the Iron Wheel, in the aftermath of the TG storyline, as they return to their home base reeling from the embarrassment they got into both as they were being played for fools, and as they made a lot of bad blood through overzealous cracking down... they likely would need to seek new recruits, to cover the, uhm, losses incurred in the hew's bane mission, and might have to deal with internal strife as the overzealous "punishment" faction tries to make a play for leadership, opposed by the more responsible "lawkeeper" faction which has most its members from the newbies who are all idealistic and righteous without yet going "bad cop" - which naturally would be just the spot for a player character to enter the picture...
...or...
...some scholars guild that does not deal with murder or theft, or those who would stoop to either, but in their pursuit of scholarly endevours (aka, tomb raiding) came into conflict with (criminal) organizations they proved ill equipped to handle, and thus open their doors to new members seeking those who pair scholarly qualifications with noteworthy battle prowess to brave both archeological expeditions that deal with the more unruly of tom denizens as well as deal with dangers of a more recent date which may be aiming to give all the scholarly bookwyrms a terminal wedgie...
...or...
...and order of oh so noble knights, who take quests for those who have noone else to turn to, as long as their cause is just and honorable. It may not pay anything in terms of gold, but in return the knights place would allow their stalward fighters free gear repair, a daily ration of gear like foodstuffs, potions, repair kits, and the order would hand them some donated equipment for each quest they bring to closure. Damsels in distress delivered from doom, fiendish villains vexed in every way, mangy murderous monsters massacred, that sort of thing for the bards to sing songs about, and all for the honor and glory, and not like those pesky mercenaries of the fighters guild who do it for profit... and of course, a story line dealing with those less honorable abusing the noble knights for their own nefarious plots. And yes, it might just as well be the knights of the hour in the aftermath of the DB storyline.
That sort of thing...
...by the way...
...while we are taking deeds the bards might sing about, I definitely also would want to see a bardic guild. Though traditionally bards often have had a somewhat loose view of the concept of legal ownership (or marriage vows for that matter), so they definitely would not bat an eye at some thief joining them - as long as they have a good singing voice, and steal with style! But a bardic guild filled with song and charm (and quests involving a lot of charmwork and rougeish escapades) as well as a music based skill line... count me in for a DLC I'd buy!

Life is not white and black - it is greyish - I am not fond of any mechanics, which would lock my characters into a certain playstyle or moral - moral is permanent choice making, despite the fact that a bad deed is eventually easy to achieve and lucrative. This is what makes moral choices difficult - but when locked into a role, there is no longer any choice to make. A person locked into a role, without the ability to do bad, is no longer a moral person, because it cannot make any moral choices in the matter anymore - the initial choice does not count, because it could not be reverted once made.

Take marriage as an example - if the vows made could never be broken, where is the challenge of a moral choice in this, not to cheat. If it is impossible to cheat, than this is not a moral choice, but just impossible to cheat. But if there is temptation and you do not cheat on your partner nevertheless and you make these kind of choices over and over and over again with other temptations, then you are a moral person - but not if you would not have a choice at all - that would be easy mode.

When the only choices you are given are all bad, you're just as locked in as this picture you're trying to falsely paint. There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking for some light morality choices to be added to the game. I can't even count how many times the choices I've been given in this game have been equally abhorrent to my character's nature.

Then just refuse to do either - that would be the moral choice to make in this case. If you find reasons, to do them nevertheless, you enter the gray zone - and be a normal person, who does not make always just good or always just bad decisions. The truth is in the middle somewhere - major choices should be good, minor ones can eventually be bad ones - this makes still for a good character.

Way to totally ignore the point here Lysette.

A good way to experience the relativity of "good" and"bad" is the comedy "sliding doors" - watch it, it teaches something about this - this movie changed my view on what is "good" and "bad" and made my life a lot easier in regards to moral choices.

Edit: and no, I do not ignore it - I am just telling you, that the moment you consider a bad thing a possible choice, just because you want to do it, you start to lie to yourself - you want to stay a moral person, while in your mind you are already on the way to make an amoral decision and are just trying to find a good reason to do so - just admit that, be human, and you will have much easier time around. The harder part is to really be a moral person, but this will exclude you from a lot of fun - this is what makes it so hard to be a morally good person. Allow for gray, that is what I am suggesting, do not try to be just a white knight.

Ok, for one thing... Its a game. What the OP has simply asked for is a DLC with a different moral tone.

But more to your point. Yes, life is often filled with shades of Grey. But none the less, there exist a higher morality. The relative moralist position such as the one you articulated, is how things like attrocities and genocides happen. There is a point in which there is a line that can not be crossed. And no. I don't smply rationalize my choices to accomidate them. Yes, humans do that... weak and morally deficient humans. People I would not trust. People I certainly would not deploy to combat with.

You can only entertain relatively moralist positions if you are living in a soft, insular and protected life afforded by a technologically adavnced civilization. In other circumstances, your moral choices become very pronounced.

That is why some people will use human shields, and some people will make themselves human shields.

We live in an era that celebrates the villain and the anti-hero. People gravitate to such ideas, becasue they feel inadequate and can not live up to a higher idea they feel is presented to them by society as a whole. Granted, that heroic image is usually so contrived as to be impossible. But that does not change the overall point

You are right in most things - but I will give you something else to think about. If you are always the good guy with a reliable good moral, you make yourself vulnerable, because you are highly predictable in what you do. You can be abused. That is one of the reasons why in nature nothing is perfect for example - perfect means too predictable to survive - life evolves between "too perfect to survive" and "not perfect enough too compete" - an always moral person behaves in a too perfect way, and this makes him vulnerable, sooner or later someone will abuse him. That is why allowing for grey is a necessity to be successful.

Sadly, you're still totally ignoring the fact that GREY CAN NOT EXIST without there being a GOOD WHITE CHOICE!

Lysette · June 2016

j3crow wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

j3crow wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

After betraying all moral values of my character with the thieves guild and now dark brotherhood, i would love to see a good guild like the companions or dawnguard from skyrim...

My main is a nasty bounty huntress, so she enjoyed those criminal activities, a lot. My secondary on the other hand is a naive and decent librarian, who doesn't even open thieves troves when he stumbles over them... so in his name, I wholly agree with this one!

And thus, I would dearly love to have "opposites" guilds, giving people a choice which side to join, and once the choice is made, locking out the "opposed" activities (meaning if you join one of these "lawful" guilds, you can forget about ever getting allowed into the outlaw refugee again, and those places might have justice-strength guards added to them which attack those goodie-two-greaves on sight... and thieves troves would be inaccessibe, something like that... even tresspass-entering a house would be impossible, but there might be an special "search warrant" item that allows them to do it without trespassing for those quest-related needful searches of other peoples property or something)...
...like...
...some crimefighter guild that only characters who don't do the nasty thievery or murdering can join. Might even be the Iron Wheel, in the aftermath of the TG storyline, as they return to their home base reeling from the embarrassment they got into both as they were being played for fools, and as they made a lot of bad blood through overzealous cracking down... they likely would need to seek new recruits, to cover the, uhm, losses incurred in the hew's bane mission, and might have to deal with internal strife as the overzealous "punishment" faction tries to make a play for leadership, opposed by the more responsible "lawkeeper" faction which has most its members from the newbies who are all idealistic and righteous without yet going "bad cop" - which naturally would be just the spot for a player character to enter the picture...
...or...
...some scholars guild that does not deal with murder or theft, or those who would stoop to either, but in their pursuit of scholarly endevours (aka, tomb raiding) came into conflict with (criminal) organizations they proved ill equipped to handle, and thus open their doors to new members seeking those who pair scholarly qualifications with noteworthy battle prowess to brave both archeological expeditions that deal with the more unruly of tom denizens as well as deal with dangers of a more recent date which may be aiming to give all the scholarly bookwyrms a terminal wedgie...
...or...
...and order of oh so noble knights, who take quests for those who have noone else to turn to, as long as their cause is just and honorable. It may not pay anything in terms of gold, but in return the knights place would allow their stalward fighters free gear repair, a daily ration of gear like foodstuffs, potions, repair kits, and the order would hand them some donated equipment for each quest they bring to closure. Damsels in distress delivered from doom, fiendish villains vexed in every way, mangy murderous monsters massacred, that sort of thing for the bards to sing songs about, and all for the honor and glory, and not like those pesky mercenaries of the fighters guild who do it for profit... and of course, a story line dealing with those less honorable abusing the noble knights for their own nefarious plots. And yes, it might just as well be the knights of the hour in the aftermath of the DB storyline.
That sort of thing...
...by the way...
...while we are taking deeds the bards might sing about, I definitely also would want to see a bardic guild. Though traditionally bards often have had a somewhat loose view of the concept of legal ownership (or marriage vows for that matter), so they definitely would not bat an eye at some thief joining them - as long as they have a good singing voice, and steal with style! But a bardic guild filled with song and charm (and quests involving a lot of charmwork and rougeish escapades) as well as a music based skill line... count me in for a DLC I'd buy!

Life is not white and black - it is greyish - I am not fond of any mechanics, which would lock my characters into a certain playstyle or moral - moral is permanent choice making, despite the fact that a bad deed is eventually easy to achieve and lucrative. This is what makes moral choices difficult - but when locked into a role, there is no longer any choice to make. A person locked into a role, without the ability to do bad, is no longer a moral person, because it cannot make any moral choices in the matter anymore - the initial choice does not count, because it could not be reverted once made.

Take marriage as an example - if the vows made could never be broken, where is the challenge of a moral choice in this, not to cheat. If it is impossible to cheat, than this is not a moral choice, but just impossible to cheat. But if there is temptation and you do not cheat on your partner nevertheless and you make these kind of choices over and over and over again with other temptations, then you are a moral person - but not if you would not have a choice at all - that would be easy mode.

When the only choices you are given are all bad, you're just as locked in as this picture you're trying to falsely paint. There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking for some light morality choices to be added to the game. I can't even count how many times the choices I've been given in this game have been equally abhorrent to my character's nature.

Then just refuse to do either - that would be the moral choice to make in this case. If you find reasons, to do them nevertheless, you enter the gray zone - and be a normal person, who does not make always just good or always just bad decisions. The truth is in the middle somewhere - major choices should be good, minor ones can eventually be bad ones - this makes still for a good character.

Way to totally ignore the point here Lysette.

A good way to experience the relativity of "good" and"bad" is the comedy "sliding doors" - watch it, it teaches something about this - this movie changed my view on what is "good" and "bad" and made my life a lot easier in regards to moral choices.

Edit: and no, I do not ignore it - I am just telling you, that the moment you consider a bad thing a possible choice, just because you want to do it, you start to lie to yourself - you want to stay a moral person, while in your mind you are already on the way to make an amoral decision and are just trying to find a good reason to do so - just admit that, be human, and you will have much easier time around. The harder part is to really be a moral person, but this will exclude you from a lot of fun - this is what makes it so hard to be a morally good person. Allow for gray, that is what I am suggesting, do not try to be just a white knight.

Ok, for one thing... Its a game. What the OP has simply asked for is a DLC with a different moral tone.

But more to your point. Yes, life is often filled with shades of Grey. But none the less, there exist a higher morality. The relative moralist position such as the one you articulated, is how things like attrocities and genocides happen. There is a point in which there is a line that can not be crossed. And no. I don't smply rationalize my choices to accomidate them. Yes, humans do that... weak and morally deficient humans. People I would not trust. People I certainly would not deploy to combat with.

You can only entertain relatively moralist positions if you are living in a soft, insular and protected life afforded by a technologically adavnced civilization. In other circumstances, your moral choices become very pronounced.

That is why some people will use human shields, and some people will make themselves human shields.

We live in an era that celebrates the villain and the anti-hero. People gravitate to such ideas, becasue they feel inadequate and can not live up to a higher idea they feel is presented to them by society as a whole. Granted, that heroic image is usually so contrived as to be impossible. But that does not change the overall point

You are right in most things - but I will give you something else to think about. If you are always the good guy with a reliable good moral, you make yourself vulnerable, because you are highly predictable in what you do. You can be abused. That is one of the reasons why in nature nothing is perfect for example - perfect means too predictable to survive - life evolves between "too perfect to survive" and "not perfect enough too compete" - a always moral person behaves in a too perfect way, and this make him vulnerable, sooner or later someone will abuse him. That is why allowing for grey is a necessity to be successful.

Thats why there is such a thing as competing harms. 'Good' does not automatically equate to 'stupid' or 'inflexible'. Thats why good guys still believe in things like the value of Intelligence and the use of Spies, or the use of deception to minimize the loss of Life. In the case of the DLC content, the examples a re pretty clear, and don't require a lot of discernment

The use of deception is a "gray" decision - it is not a morally good one - it is gray - that is all what I am saying, sometimes you have to allow for gray.