Maintenance for the week of April 6:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
Ninglenel (DPS Dummy) Actually Removed
-
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭dimensional wrote: »
It definitely IS because not only was that NPC completely harmless to 100% of the players and useful to people who wanted to test their rotation, but ZOS is basically saying "we don't have the resources to fix cheats, hacks and broken skills, but we'll use everything we have to remove said harmless NPC".
So, you're equating the weeks of coding and programing and investigation and testing required to fix cheats, hacks and broken skills to the four keystrokes required to remove an existing NPC?"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?0 -
Shazgob✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »RIP Ninglenel.
I agree with your point, but just to clarify, "elitism" has nothing to do with player's skill or goals in game. Those are you talking about are just competitive players, and they may or may not be elitist.
Fair point, show me a group that can complete the last 2 bosses in Vet Maw that AREN'T elitist however. I mean, it's more than obvious that the level of DPS/Healing/Coordination is far far far above par in here, casuals will have basically no chance of completing this Trial.<Malacath's Trousers>
Guild Master and Trouser King
-Veteran Maw of Lorkhaj: 50,000+
Champion Rank - 700
50 StamsOrc Flawless Conqueror and Master Angler
50 Altmer Healplar
50 Argonian Stamblade Ganker
50 Breton Magicka Nightblade DPS
50 Bosmer Stamina Templar DPS
50 Khajiit Dragonknight DPS1 -
mr_wazzabi✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom any comment?Bosmer Stamina NB
Altmer Magicka TEMP
Dunmer DK both stam/mag (depends what I feel like)
Altmer Magicka NB
Breton Magicka Sorc
Redguard Stam Sorc
Max CP1 -
Archmage1✭✭✭Bring him back, or please give us test dummies. How hard could it be, and really, why not??1 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It's confirmed, ZOS have spent an entire minute of development time to remove our most useful tool in the game for testing ability rotations and dps, and all that without even giving us an alternative first.
Here's a link to Deltias original thread about this on the PTS forum which ZOS have been ignoring for the past week as well.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/267575/save-ninglenel-dps-test/p1
I suspect it was done on purpose so people cant easily compare their dps. That way everyone could actually check dps balance between classes, resources and weapons. ZOS dont want that. So theres no way this NPC is coming back. And I wouldnt hold my breath waiting for dps test dummies to make an appearance in game.Edited by khele23eb17_ESO on May 31, 2016 7:04PMP2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.6 -
Shazgob✭✭✭@mr_wazzabi Don't hold your breath =/ 10 pages+ on the 'Save Ninglanel DPS Test' forum, and 2 pages here already and not so much as a peep. They've shown that they don't care, hell, it took Zazeer showcasing hacks to get them to do ANYTHING about that, pretty extreme considering how long that had been around and simply swept under the rug like nothing was wrong.<Malacath's Trousers>
Guild Master and Trouser King
-Veteran Maw of Lorkhaj: 50,000+
Champion Rank - 700
50 StamsOrc Flawless Conqueror and Master Angler
50 Altmer Healplar
50 Argonian Stamblade Ganker
50 Breton Magicka Nightblade DPS
50 Bosmer Stamina Templar DPS
50 Khajiit Dragonknight DPS1 -
s7732425ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Let's not make this a bigger deal than it really is.
NO. It is a HUGE deal. It sounds like you aren't trying to lead a group of players through the hardest content in the game. Well, I am. And do you know what? This mob has been extremely helpful in teaching players proper skill rotations. It also has revealed a lot of stuff about how abilities work that most people don't know.
The amount of information this single bugged mob has generated has been extremely helpful in endgame theorycrafting. And now it's gone.
Slap in the face to hardcore players.1 -
daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »dimensional wrote: »
It definitely IS because not only was that NPC completely harmless to 100% of the players and useful to people who wanted to test their rotation, but ZOS is basically saying "we don't have the resources to fix cheats, hacks and broken skills, but we'll use everything we have to remove said harmless NPC".
So, you're equating the weeks of coding and programing and investigation and testing required to fix cheats, hacks and broken skills to the four keystrokes required to remove an existing NPC?
No, I'm saying only a clueless team will devote ANY resources to removing something that wasn't causing any harm and was actually used by some, especially when just recently two major cheats were found to be ongoing and reported for MONTHS and ZOS only acted when they went viral.2 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭cwstonoffb14a_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »RIP Ninglenel.
I agree with your point, but just to clarify, "elitism" has nothing to do with player's skill or goals in game. Those are you talking about are just competitive players, and they may or may not be elitist.
Fair point, show me a group that can complete the last 2 bosses in Vet Maw that AREN'T elitist however. I mean, it's more than obvious that the level of DPS/Healing/Coordination is far far far above par in here, casuals will have basically no chance of completing this Trial.
This is off-topic, but...
Of course they are good, but in this game's community "elitst" is used as a derogatory term for people who always claim that their playstyle or social group is superior and others are just scum. Those people are not nessesarily good players, they might be even not interested in playing competitively.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU0 -
Sallington✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »dimensional wrote: »
It definitely IS because not only was that NPC completely harmless to 100% of the players and useful to people who wanted to test their rotation, but ZOS is basically saying "we don't have the resources to fix cheats, hacks and broken skills, but we'll use everything we have to remove said harmless NPC".
So, you're equating the weeks of coding and programing and investigation and testing required to fix cheats, hacks and broken skills to the four keystrokes required to remove an existing NPC?
No, I'm saying only a clueless team will devote ANY resources to removing something that wasn't causing any harm and was actually used by some, especially when just recently two major cheats were found to be ongoing and reported for MONTHS and ZOS only acted when they went viral.
This. The person that brought up "fixing" this harmless NPC should have been laughed out of the conference room. With all of the other nonsense that needs fixing, this was on a list somewhere?Daggerfall Covenant
Sallington - Templar - Stormproof - Prefect II
Cobham - Sorcerer - Stormproof - First Sergeant II
Shallington - NightBlade - Lieutenant |
Balmorah - Templar - Sergeant ||0 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »dimensional wrote: »
It definitely IS because not only was that NPC completely harmless to 100% of the players and useful to people who wanted to test their rotation, but ZOS is basically saying "we don't have the resources to fix cheats, hacks and broken skills, but we'll use everything we have to remove said harmless NPC".
So, you're equating the weeks of coding and programing and investigation and testing required to fix cheats, hacks and broken skills to the four keystrokes required to remove an existing NPC?
No, I'm saying only a clueless team will devote ANY resources to removing something that wasn't causing any harm and was actually used by some, especially when just recently two major cheats were found to be ongoing and reported for MONTHS and ZOS only acted when they went viral.
I'm not disagreeing with you.
I'm just pointing out that addressing one of these things is significantly less complicated than the other.
I mean, let's say you've got a big laundry list of things to check off this weekend. Some of those tasks are difficult and complicated, some are stupidly quick and simple. Why not knock out the easy stuff so it's not hanging over your head before tackling the hard thing? Or, you know, you've got a whole team of people working on this list... Maybe have the intern knock out some easy stuff while the experienced, knowledgeable folks work on the hard thing?
Again, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on whether or not it -should- have been removed, just that it was apparently on the list, so there's a certain logic to getting it off the list first.Edited by ShedsHisTail on May 31, 2016 7:18PM"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?0 -
GnGEmpire✭✭✭[quote="daemonios;3027843"I'm saying only a clueless team will devote ANY resources to removing something that wasn't causing any harm and was actually used by some[/quote]
Indeed.. It's been almost a week now since their royal f.up has been brought to their attention and not a mere acknowledgement. You're really making it hard on some people to keep supporting you ZOS, I have no idea how I still am, but probably not for long.
Casualty - small high end/end game PvE guild. Recruiting!1 -
daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »dimensional wrote: »
It definitely IS because not only was that NPC completely harmless to 100% of the players and useful to people who wanted to test their rotation, but ZOS is basically saying "we don't have the resources to fix cheats, hacks and broken skills, but we'll use everything we have to remove said harmless NPC".
So, you're equating the weeks of coding and programing and investigation and testing required to fix cheats, hacks and broken skills to the four keystrokes required to remove an existing NPC?
No, I'm saying only a clueless team will devote ANY resources to removing something that wasn't causing any harm and was actually used by some, especially when just recently two major cheats were found to be ongoing and reported for MONTHS and ZOS only acted when they went viral.
I'm not disagreeing with you.
I'm just pointing out that addressing one of these things is significantly less complicated than the other.
I mean, let's say you've got a big laundry list of things to check off this weekend. Some of those tasks are difficult and complicated, some are stupidly quick and simple. Why not knock out the easy stuff so it's not hanging over your head before tackling the hard thing? Or, you know, you've got a whole team of people working on this list... Maybe have the intern knock out some easy stuff while the experienced, knowledgeable folks work on the hard thing?
Again, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on whether or not it -should- have been removed, just that it was apparently on the list, so there's a certain logic to getting it off the list first.
I get it, I realise some issues are very complex and won't be fixed quickly. I'm very aware of the fallacy when people call out ZOS for fixing x instead of fixing y.
My point is from a PR perspective. You can't justify fixing things that weren't broken when your game is riddled with issues. Some people - namely me - will be further annoyed by it.Edited by daemonios on May 31, 2016 7:40PM0 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »dimensional wrote: »
It definitely IS because not only was that NPC completely harmless to 100% of the players and useful to people who wanted to test their rotation, but ZOS is basically saying "we don't have the resources to fix cheats, hacks and broken skills, but we'll use everything we have to remove said harmless NPC".
So, you're equating the weeks of coding and programing and investigation and testing required to fix cheats, hacks and broken skills to the four keystrokes required to remove an existing NPC?
No, I'm saying only a clueless team will devote ANY resources to removing something that wasn't causing any harm and was actually used by some, especially when just recently two major cheats were found to be ongoing and reported for MONTHS and ZOS only acted when they went viral.
I'm not disagreeing with you.
I'm just pointing out that addressing one of these things is significantly less complicated than the other.
I mean, let's say you've got a big laundry list of things to check off this weekend. Some of those tasks are difficult and complicated, some are stupidly quick and simple. Why not knock out the easy stuff so it's not hanging over your head before tackling the hard thing? Or, you know, you've got a whole team of people working on this list... Maybe have the intern knock out some easy stuff while the experienced, knowledgeable folks work on the hard thing?
Again, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on whether or not it -should- have been removed, just that it was apparently on the list, so there's a certain logic to getting it off the list first.
I get it, I realise some issues are very complex and won't be fixed quickly. I'm very aware of the fallacy when people call out ZOS for fixing x instead of fixing y.
My point is from a PR perspective. You can't justify fixing things that weren't broken when your game is riddled with issues. Some people - namely me - will be further annoyed by it.
"Weren't broken" to you. Clearly ZOS disagrees which is why it was removed.
Now, that said, I seem to recall seeing one of those Q&A panels where a couple of the guys stated they definitely wanted target mannequins eventually, so hopefully you'll be seeing something more formal return in the near future.
"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?0 -
BlackEar✭✭✭✭✭well maybe they are planning to add DPS test training dummies in the next patch?
A DPS Dummy is a NPC stripped of the coding for damage taking, movement and offensive capabilities... It is extremly easy to make and they already even have the models for it in the game... If they were ever going to release it, they'd have released it already. They just don't want people to easily be able to test their abilities and rotations because doing so would allow players to more easily figure out how bugged some abilities are.
It sure does seem at this point that they don't want to add DPS dummies since they purposely removed the only thing resembling it without adding an alternative.Bjorn Blackbear - Master Angler - Collector - Black Market Mogul - Ebonheart Pact - Exterminatus - EU.
Achievement hunter:
Visit my profile page to find out about which achievement I am currently hunting.
Check out Anemonean's thieving guide!0 -
It's confirmed, ZOS have spent an entire minute of development time to remove our most useful tool in the game for testing ability rotations and dps, and all that without even giving us an alternative first.
Here's a link to Deltias original thread about this on the PTS forum which ZOS have been ignoring for the past week as well.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/267575/save-ninglenel-dps-test/p1
why do u need a dummy to test just go to cyrodill plenty of dummys there just wanted to be ganked
alternatively why not actually practice on a live fight ... like most of us do ...
2 -
and as for testing a rotation are u kidding me u dont know the basic rotations enough that u have to test on a dummy .... what exactly did u learn when u leved besides a good grinding spot
3 -
ZoM_Head✭✭✭✭What Zenimax can do, is simply to place some dummies, the same ones in Cyrodiil, when you first enter and get "training" done with siege weapons, place them in a room in maybe the end zone or first zone fighter's guilds.
Its a real simple solution really, those dummies are already in game and in cyrodiil.....mDKs still need a lot of love!0 -
daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭karldavy149b16_ESO wrote: »and as for testing a rotation are u kidding me u dont know the basic rotations enough that u have to test on a dummy .... what exactly did u learn when u leved besides a good grinding spot
Now I'm curious to see a parse from you for the whole duration of a boss fight in vMoL.1 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭joshisanonymous wrote: »Perhaps they *fixed it* (obviously this wasn't an intended use) because they don't actually want players to be able to easily run tests? Their design philosophy has always seemed to be against the sort of thing that turns MMOs into graphical statistics simulations, complete with elitism against anyone who isn't up to date on the latest player testing that shows the X + Y while wearing Z is clearly the optimal rotation.
What you said there is just ridiculous, first of all, dummies are not just about optimizing gear and DPS< but also about practicing complex rotations, animation cancelling, etc. Practice is necessary in any game or sport, that is why dummies don't just exist in MMOs, but in real life as well, for any number of martial parts, weapons, etc. It is something necessary for PRACTICING.
And considering this game doesn't exactly allow you to check how much DPS another person is achieving, what is wrong with allowing those interested in theorycrafting to run DPS tests? Pr those interested in obtaining the best possible DPS to work on their rotations? In life you are supposed to aim to improve, then again, Zenimax doesn't seem to care about improving...Edited by Grao on May 31, 2016 7:59PM1 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭karldavy149b16_ESO wrote: »and as for testing a rotation are u kidding me u dont know the basic rotations enough that u have to test on a dummy .... what exactly did u learn when u leved besides a good grinding spot
If you're actually theorycrafting stuff and not just copying from some guides, you sometimes need to test proc % and other important things.
Thing is, dungeon bosses die way too fast if you have decent dps.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU2 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Cyrodill has too many variables for players wanting to be minmaxed in PvEkarldavy149b16_ESO wrote: »It's confirmed, ZOS have spent an entire minute of development time to remove our most useful tool in the game for testing ability rotations and dps, and all that without even giving us an alternative first.
Here's a link to Deltias original thread about this on the PTS forum which ZOS have been ignoring for the past week as well.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/267575/save-ninglenel-dps-test/p1
why do u need a dummy to test just go to cyrodill plenty of dummys there just wanted to be ganked
alternatively why not actually practice on a live fight ... like most of us do ...
In regards to using a live fight, well a DPS dummy is there to help practice your rotation and get it down to muscle memory and internal timing. The live fight also has different variables to it like Spell Resistances and Debuffs. This was a pure and great dps test, many people could smack this NPC at once and he would just stand there.
Granted this is not the best for figuring out your CP allocation and things like this or getting DPS numbers as the dummy is always on 0% health affecting your passives, BUT the point was to provide players an edge in their rotations and getting to know how their class works etc.
Stop ignoring the issue and putting it down by saying it is not important, this is very important and should just been left as it is, I find it extremely hard to believe that this was ruining immersion. If anything ZOS you should have moved this test dummy in location to out of sight so it doesn't break immersion and then tell us where you moved it.
@ZOS_RichLambert Possible to have this NPC or another placed back into the realm of Tamriel so we can smack em around, but in a safe location out of view of the questing players?#MOREORBS1 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭dimensional wrote: »
It definitely IS because not only was that NPC completely harmless to 100% of the players and useful to people who wanted to test their rotation, but ZOS is basically saying "we don't have the resources to fix cheats, hacks and broken skills, but we'll use everything we have to remove said harmless NPC".
As I said before, I think they do this and refuse to release a test dummy so we can't dig deep into abilities and find out just how bugged some of them are.0 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
This is from a player who spent most of his time smacking around this NPC and learning his rotation.karldavy149b16_ESO wrote: »and as for testing a rotation are u kidding me u dont know the basic rotations enough that u have to test on a dummy .... what exactly did u learn when u leved besides a good grinding spot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V30st2C8Ulw
I do not see any other player getting as high as this or doing a rotation like this.#MOREORBS0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »Let's not make this a bigger deal than it really is.
NO. It is a HUGE deal. It sounds like you aren't trying to lead a group of players through the hardest content in the game. Well, I am. And do you know what? This mob has been extremely helpful in teaching players proper skill rotations. It also has revealed a lot of stuff about how abilities work that most people don't know.
The amount of information this single bugged mob has generated has been extremely helpful in endgame theorycrafting. And now it's gone.
Slap in the face to hardcore players.
And that is precisely what ZoS doesn't want... They don't want us figuring out how the abilities work, how they scale or how they are bugged.0 -
The_Rooster24✭✭✭You want to know the most annoying part about this? Is the fact that bugs that have been around forever like destro staff animation, bar swapping and dual wielding a bow (or anything of that nature), not being able to weave, floating around in the 3rd stage in VMA, health syncing issues, glitching into walls after a gap closer, jump momentum, evil hunter over riding weapon critical pots, double cc in VICP, last boss in VMA killing you though he reads as "dead", and countless others. This is along with the countless exploits, THAT HAVE BEEN KNOWN ABOUT FOREVER, and they decided to take time out of someone's day to remove something that was useful to a lot of people. ZOS you are very pathetic at times. Try one of the mentioned bugs before ruining the only viable way to test dps over 40 seconds.1 -
flguy147ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭As long as people keep subbing then they wont ever care or listen to the player base. Complaining, Feedback or Constructive Criticism does nothing if you dont speak with your wallet. Its why i just unsubbed today due to the fact they wont listen to us and the feedback my class has given for over 6 months on dragon blood in PVP. I cannot give my money anymore to a company who refuses to listen to the player's needs. They will NEVER listen to you guys if you keep giving them money. Its really that freaking simple.Edited by flguy147ub17_ESO on May 31, 2016 8:48PM1
-
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »As long as people keep subbing then they wont ever care or listen to the player base. Complaining, Feedback or Constructive Criticism does nothing if you dont speak with your wallet. Its why i just unsubbed today due to the fact they wont listen to us and the feedback my class has given for over 6 months on dragon blood in PVP. I cannot give my money anymore to a company who refuses to listen to the player's needs. They will NEVER listen to you guys if you keep giving them money. Its really that freaking simple.
Hey, you think DKs are not being heard? Try maining a sorcerer and you will understand true suffering! XD2
