The market has also been destroyed

ArchMikem · May 2016

CokeVoAYCE wrote: »

i was playin' ESO mindin' my own business. doin' a bunch of trading in stuff. buy low sell high, make thousands of gold easy with no work. as i went in the guild store to look at low priced items to buy up, i noticed an influx of rare jewelry and gear that usually is never there in such abundance. i figured, "oh it must be cuz it's like memorial day and a lot of people are playing today." then about an hour later i re-thought about this and realized the influx of gear is due to the hacks and ulti-spams allowing for people to get so much AP in pvp and beat MSA so easily. i have a lot of gold in assets, and i know a lot of people who also do too. due to the influx of all this gear and supply and demand stuff since the supply is increased the worth of all our items is decreasing. i'm possibly out hundreds of thousands of gold thanks to these cheaters. ZOS, are you gonna refund people like me affected by the bad market? are you gonna start banning people or account wiping them completely instead of just giving them a timeout and letting them keep everything they got??

Here I am. Just sitting here. Just happy to have had managed to recently accrue over 60k before spending half of it on getting the Materials, Resins, and Tannins I needed...

What is it about people playing the Economy like a side game and casually dealing with big numbers that just angers me.

Lenikus · May 2016

See?

That's why ZoS does not make their announcements in the forums.
Half of the people doesn't know what's going on anyway, and the other half assumed the wrong thing.

Rev Rielle · May 2016

Unfortunately, when you have a negative impact on game play due to your play-style (i.e. buy low, sell high, adding to inflation of in-game prices; one of the biggest problems acknowledged by the MMO genre), your complaints tend to fall on deaf ears.

Acrolas · May 2016

Logicbomb00 wrote: »

I'd actually say that it's people that buy low and sell high that are the ones destroying the economy.

We're emotionally hard-wired to despise the buy low, sell high mentality because of the risk from both ends.

But it's the system any good seller uses. Retailers don't buy product from manufacturers for $5 and sell them for $5. They buy them for $5 and sell them for $20. If you purchased anything this weekend, you paid a markup that the seller didn't.

Tools like Master Merchant provide a moving average that lowers risk somewhat. But there's always some risk.

With notions like 'blatant capitalism', your comment says more about your lack of desire to compete than the effects of those who are willing and disciplined to compete. They don't care how you feel. They're probably too busy selling.

Somehow, even in a decentralized marketplace, it comes down to people blaming people. A centralized marketplace would just put the blame and blamers in a central location.

And you can have empathy and still be an intelligent and competitive seller. The two are not mutually exclusive. But as this is your first MMO, let me remind you that empathy quickly wears thin in a online environment. Especially when people make generalizations that don't particularly hold up well to scrutiny.

newtinmpls · May 2016

Acrolas wrote: »

. But as this is your first MMO, let me remind you that empathy quickly wears thin in a online environment..

Empathy is a rare commodity anywhere. It's not hardwired, we have to develop it.

Some do.

Some don't.

YMMV.

CokeVoAYCE · May 2016

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

CokeVoAYCE wrote: »

inb4 thread lock.

Off course you are inb4 thread locked. You posted the thread.

Stupidest thing I have read all day.

when i say thread lock i mean by the devs. how am i supposed to predict whether my thread will or will not actually be locked by the devs? i fail to see how this prediction was dumb, but whatever.

clayandaudrey_ESO · May 2016

CokeVoAYCE wrote: »

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

CokeVoAYCE wrote: »

inb4 thread lock.

Off course you are inb4 thread locked. You posted the thread.

Stupidest thing I have read all day.

when i say thread lock i mean by the devs. how am i supposed to predict whether my thread will or will not actually be locked by the devs? i fail to see how this prediction was dumb, but whatever.

Trying to justify it may be second today.

Logicbomb00 · May 2016

Acrolas wrote: »

Logicbomb00 wrote: »

I'd actually say that it's people that buy low and sell high that are the ones destroying the economy.

We're emotionally hard-wired to despise the buy low, sell high mentality because of the risk from both ends.

But it's the system any good seller uses. Retailers don't buy product from manufacturers for $5 and sell them for $5. They buy them for $5 and sell them for $20. If you purchased anything this weekend, you paid a markup that the seller didn't.

Tools like Master Merchant provide a moving average that lowers risk somewhat. But there's always some risk.

With notions like 'blatant capitalism', your comment says more about your lack of desire to compete than the effects of those who are willing and disciplined to compete. They don't care how you feel. They're probably too busy selling.

Somehow, even in a decentralized marketplace, it comes down to people blaming people. A centralized marketplace would just put the blame and blamers in a central location.

And you can have empathy and still be an intelligent and competitive seller. The two are not mutually exclusive. But as this is your first MMO, let me remind you that empathy quickly wears thin in a online environment. Especially when people make generalizations that don't particularly hold up well to scrutiny.

You state that my 'blatant capitalism' statement has no foundation, and yet a few lines up you're talking about how capitalism works and that is how 'good sellers' are making gold in the game, jacking prices up, and destroying the economy. It works both ways and one persons view of what this means is different to anothers. I believe the current market is too greedy and exclusive to those that have the gold to afford things (and have usually contributed to the prices to keep it so). That is my definition of 'destroying'.

Like I said. It shouldn't belong here. It's a game. We should be helping each other and having fun and leaving RL *** like capitalism in the gutter where it belongs. But these are just pipe dreams I know. Carry on.

Jimbullbee85 · May 2016

If they track a hacker I find it incredibly difficult to believe that ZOS wouldn't do something about it. It is a money making business afterall and they won't tolerate anyone cheating the system.

The current price drops with certain items like mats and jewelry are all down to the increase in availability. The new dlc has provided a rich farming zone and set pieces from trophy vaults now drop more frequently in various dungeons. Some things will increase in price soon though. Legendary tempers for example are becoming exceptionally difficult to find except for those who are voracious farmers.

Volkodav · May 2016

I havent noticed a lot of gear in the Guilds for sale lately,but I HAVE noticed that mats arent selling very well.It just started happening this month. Normally I have no problem selling stacks of 200 of anything.Now though,they just stay there and get returned,for the most part.
Odd.

Sk000tch · May 2016

This is among the worst threads I have ever read.

First - The shenanigans this weekend did not even effect the economy, much less "destroy"it. Rewards for the worthy doesn't drop anything worth more than 10-20k. The only thing worth much is gold jewelery, and that's end of campaign only. A few dozen people earning even an extra million AP today wouldn't even be a blip on the radar. And MSA/Vet dungeon drops like worm??? First of all, worm is from maw, but beyond that nobody used the multi-exploit to farm MSA or **** spindleclutch. Some ran vmsa, as you can see by the 600k scores on the leaderboard, but thats all BOP.

Second - I realize that cash is tight when leveling up your first character, and that 60k on a arcane WP ring may seems like a lot at the time, but you guys really lack an understanding of the economics in this game. Most of the people connected to the drama this weekend are sitting on millions of gold and even more AP, with nothing to spend it on. If you want to see a market disruption, wait until tomorrow. The devaluation of mats from TG will be nothing in comparison. Players are sitting on millions and millions of AP, but the BOE upscaled sets from the PVP vendor is going to hit the traders like a freight train.

Lastly - wtf is wrong with you anti- buy low sell high people? The ESO economy, like any real economy, depends on scarcity for item value. We can't all have beach-front houses, porsches and gold VD jewelry. Players that arbitrage the guild traders do not inflate in-game prices, they are just capitalizing on an information asymmetry in that they are more aware of the value of a particular item than is the seller. The item is still worth exactly what another player is willing to pay for it, no more, no less... they just saw a deal and jumped on it.

newtinmpls · May 2016

Sk000tch wrote: »

Second - I realize that cash is tight when leveling up your first character, and that 60k on a arcane WP ring may seems like a lot at the time, .

Been playing two accounts for a little over two years.

Still rarely have more than 10k on one entire account (all characters plus bank).

starkerealm · May 2016

The market's going to recover, tomorrow. As in, literally, about 12 hours from now.

Anyone with a VR12+ character or more than 160cp, and multiple Vet characters will suddenly have a lot more mouths to feed for level cap gear.

The supply exploded with a couple exploits, but the demand is about to follow suit.

khele23eb17_ESO · May 2016

Sk000tch wrote: »

Lastly - wtf is wrong with you anti- buy low sell high people? The ESO economy, like any real economy, depends on scarcity for item value. We can't all have beach-front houses, porsches and gold VD jewelry. Players that arbitrage the guild traders do not inflate in-game prices, they are just capitalizing on an information asymmetry in that they are more aware of the value of a particular item than is the seller. The item is still worth exactly what another player is willing to pay for it, no more, no less... they just saw a deal and jumped on it.

Not quite. You said it yourself, prices depend on scarcity. If you have a guy with several million gold to spare buying up all the rare items if they happen to be put up for sale at a more affordable price, the scarcity is affected. And him putting the items up for sale later and demanding more to be paid than initially, does inflate prices.

ContraTempo · May 2016

Whatever the markets are now, in a few hours all that will start to change. We won't really know what the new markets will look like for about a month, when all the horded supplies have been used or sold and the new realities really have time to make an impact.

DB will be a huge change to many aspects of the game. Worrying about how much extra loot a cheater made will be the least of your concerns for a while.

Sk000tch · May 2016

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Sk000tch wrote: »

Lastly - wtf is wrong with you anti- buy low sell high people? The ESO economy, like any real economy, depends on scarcity for item value. We can't all have beach-front houses, porsches and gold VD jewelry. Players that arbitrage the guild traders do not inflate in-game prices, they are just capitalizing on an information asymmetry in that they are more aware of the value of a particular item than is the seller. The item is still worth exactly what another player is willing to pay for it, no more, no less... they just saw a deal and jumped on it.

Not quite. You said it yourself, prices depend on scarcity. If you have a guy with several million gold to spare buying up all the rare items if they happen to be put up for sale at a more affordable price, the scarcity is affected. And him putting the items up for sale later and demanding more to be paid than initially, does inflate prices.

You're talking about different things. Not trying to get into an economics discussion, but arbitrage, or buying an underpriced good in one market and selling it at an increased price on another, is exploiting market inefficiencies which are prevalent in ESO due to guild trader system as compared to a centralized marketplace like other MMOs.

You're talking about speculation, or buying goods in hopes that they will increase in price over time.

Both happen in ESO. Consider thieves guild launch, during which both were prevalent.. People were paying insane prices for VD but a lot of players didn't realize it and the drop rate was extremely high. I made about 1.5M gold in the first few days purchasing VD pieces and reselling on high traffic traders with not much effort. Conversely, Zos announced Arch-Mage would no longer drop (increasing scarcity), and given its unique +magicka + spell damage 2/3 piece a lot of people expected the price to go up and bought several pieces for resale later. That didn't work out as well.

Neither of these things are bad. They don't effect your ability to access gear at fair prices. The former rewards players with good knowledge of what various items are worth and willing to spend time searching for underpriced stuff, the latter rewards those willing to gamble.

newtinmpls wrote: »

Sk000tch wrote: »

Second - I realize that cash is tight when leveling up your first character, and that 60k on a arcane WP ring may seems like a lot at the time, .

Been playing two accounts for a little over two years.

Still rarely have more than 10k on one entire account (all characters plus bank).

I don't know what to say man. Do you just spend everything you get or do you have a hard time making gold?

ContraTempo · May 2016

Acrolas wrote: »

Logicbomb00 wrote: »

I'd actually say that it's people that buy low and sell high that are the ones destroying the economy.

We're emotionally hard-wired to despise the buy low, sell high mentality because of the risk from both ends.

But it's the system any good seller uses. Retailers don't buy product from manufacturers for $5 and sell them for $5. They buy them for $5 and sell them for $20. If you purchased anything this weekend, you paid a markup that the seller didn't.

Tools like Master Merchant provide a moving average that lowers risk somewhat. But there's always some risk.

With notions like 'blatant capitalism', your comment says more about your lack of desire to compete than the effects of those who are willing and disciplined to compete. They don't care how you feel. They're probably too busy selling.

Somehow, even in a decentralized marketplace, it comes down to people blaming people. A centralized marketplace would just put the blame and blamers in a central location.

And you can have empathy and still be an intelligent and competitive seller. The two are not mutually exclusive. But as this is your first MMO, let me remind you that empathy quickly wears thin in a online environment. Especially when people make generalizations that don't particularly hold up well to scrutiny.

OMG this is like deja vu of RL. When I lost hundreds of thousands of real dollars in 2008 no one made up my losses. On the contrary, my tax dollars were used to rescue the cheaters. In time I did recover my losses through my own wit, skill and work, but those who got bailed out were doing fine long before I was.

I don't know what the moral is here. Life ain't fair? Roll with the punches? Depend on yourself? Don't give up? Don't worry about how the other person is doing? Being smart can make you money but having money can't make you smart? Yeah, I kinda like the last one.

ConeOfSilence · May 2016

A fake economy and fake money can't put RL food on your table or a roof over your head with it, amazing how upset ppl get over a game.

newtinmpls · May 2016

Sk000tch wrote: »

I don't know what to say man. Do you just spend everything you get or do you have a hard time making gold?

Apparently the latter.

I don't tend to buy much, I increase riding when I think about it. I increase bag/bank when I can (not often). Don't really sell that much in guild stores (hoarder) don't really sell much to vendors (decon-er). I always repair my armor rather than just upgrading (and I craft, rather than buy armor - for the most part).

Oh, and I don't really do much thieving either. Just not chasing money enough, I guess.

Faulgor · May 2016

Sk000tch wrote: »

Lastly - wtf is wrong with you anti- buy low sell high people? The ESO economy, like any real economy, depends on scarcity for item value. We can't all have beach-front houses, porsches and gold VD jewelry. Players that arbitrage the guild traders do not inflate in-game prices, they are just capitalizing on an information asymmetry in that they are more aware of the value of a particular item than is the seller. The item is still worth exactly what another player is willing to pay for it, no more, no less... they just saw a deal and jumped on it.

It's a problem when someone has enough gold to spare to buy up all listings of one item, effectively creating a monopoly that allows them to dictate the price. I haven't seen this in ESO as far as I can tell, but in other MMOs, especially with global auction houses. Which is one reason I like the guild stores.

Duiwel · May 2016

To those saying gear is server based there is no way to manipulate it, what if the cheaters just decon the legendaries for mats?

Drungly · May 2016

I am so looking forward to the cries of hacks the upcoming months. This is also the reason why stuff isn't dealt with properly; Dunning-Kruger infected people are probably flooding the report queue with false accusations.

clocksstoppe · May 2016

Casterial wrote: »

Marksman gold V16 rings were ONE MILLION when they released because of this!

No, they were 1M because of demand. That's how any market works. Don't blame it on addons if you don't understand it.

SahrotRein · May 2016

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

*Facepalm at OP*

You do realize that a bunch of PVP campaigns just ended yesterday. Which means *tons* of gold and purple VR16 PVP jewelry.

That is true, I've gotten two rings because of end of campaign reward worth selling and I can imagine a lot of other people got valuable things too.

visionality · June 2016

@CokeVoAYCE There is a totally natural explanation for the high-end jewelery influx: Sanctum Ophidia has been heavily nerfed and everyone gets a lot of highly valuable loot there. On normal mode, purple jewelery drops from every boss, on hard mode it comes in gold.

Not everything is cheating.