ZOS' worrisome logic behind ability cost increases

Zheg · May 2016

@Wrobel in your sorc QA thread you responded to this question:

Magicka Costs Increasing: Can you please look into this? I understand that this is happening to every class across the board, but with the costs of everything going up, this change is adding insult to injury. And there is already plenty of injury here, and that's being as polite about this patch as I am realistically able.

with this answer:

With the removal of Veteran Ranks we wanted ability costs to increase in a more reliable and understandable way. Veteran Ranks used a different calculation for ability cost increase from the level 1-50 experience. With this change, abilities now continue to increase their costs at the same linear pace. This also means cost reduction passives and gear should now return the values listed in the tooltips instead of using a more complex formula.
There are quite a few builds that generate a large number of resources and we expect some players will end up changing their current setup. While costs are higher, note that you can now get increased resource returns from heavy attacks that now scale their return as you gain Champion Points. Additionally, enchantments are now more powerful and restore more resources than they used to. There are also poisons which give you additional options for getting more resources.

I'm not getting any indication that you've considered how the cost increase affects different classes. Some classes (cough cough NBs) have substantially lower base skill costs (...in addition to the best resource management options in the game, both passive and active), and others have substantially higher base skill costs. When you increase skill costs across the board, this is going to impact the other classes far more than the class with low skill costs. To use fudged numbers as an example:

Breath of Life costs 4000 base. A 10% increase in cost will be 400 extra magicka.
Funnel Health costs 1500 base. A 10% increase in cost will be 150 extra magicka.

Yes, the two skills are apples to oranges, but overall, classes with low skill costs are going to be better off. It's the same problem as two that you introduced in the TG patch. Fasalla's impacts templars far more than the rest, and the rapids nerf impacts templars and DKs far more than the rest. When you make changes like this it's NOT an even impact among the classes, and it's frustrating that one class in particular always seems to come out ahead. Now throw on poisons increasing the costs 60% more ... FFS, NB can still hit funnel health or SA without much impunity because those skills are cheap to begin with. A BoL or sorc mines or wings or whatever is going to be much more difficult. This doesn't need to be a 'wait and see' type of thing, I can tell you what will happen in pvp just like I was able to tell you what would happen with your siege buffs, VD, mitigation nerfs, mobility nerfs, heal nerfs. The meta played out to a T a month after people read the patch notes, even before we were able to see it on PTS.

Across the board ability cost increases and poison cost increases will end up helping NB more than any other class, saying that heavy attacks and poison resource return are viable options (that NB also have access to) is asinine, so please don't do it. It's almost like there's a trend when it comes to the balance we get.

Leandor · May 2016

One possible solution would be to make the added cost of abilities a fixed amount instead of percentage based. That way the impact would be more noticeable on spambilities as opposed to oh-crap-abilities.

That said, the necessary modification to poisons would be to make a char immune to stam cost increase if magicka is the higher stat and vice versa. In that case, they would be counterplay as intended and not a surprise-bum-penetration as it is now.

staracino_ESO · May 2016

Over the past year or so there have been numerous changes to many abilities. I think there should be a focused pass over all of the costs, as I believe they have been subject to what I would call 'cost drift.' Meaning that the cost is no longer necessarily indicative of the core value of the skill.

Basically, get the entire combat team to sit down and re-evaluate the usage and value of each skill, and assign a new cost accordingly. The results of such a pass could not be in my favor, but if they did it in a way that was both thorough and fair, I would be satisfied either way.

danno8 · May 2016

staracino_ESO wrote: »

Over the past year or so there have been numerous changes to many abilities. I think there should be a focused pass over all of the costs, as I believe they have been subject to what I would call 'cost drift.' Meaning that the cost is no longer necessarily indicative of the core value of the skill.

Basically, get the entire combat team to sit down and re-evaluate the usage and value of each skill, and assign a new cost accordingly. The results of such a pass could not be in my favor, but if they did it in a way that was both thorough and fair, I would be satisfied either way.

So many examples.

But here is a funny one: Eclipse costs the same as BoL.

danno8 · May 2016

@Zheg

It's a strange trend I see with multiplicative things in this game. Like the devs don't understand that when it comes to multipliers you have to be careful where you apply them since they are so much stronger in some scenarios than others.

Like mitigation vs damage. Both use multiplicative values for increasing strength. So while this limits the effectiveness of mitigation, it absolutely skyrockets the effectiveness for damage. This is why many games have damage caps.

I have to admit it was disturbing on PTS when I ran out of magicka on my Templar while soloing a boss in the districts. I had 2100 magicka regen for crying out loud.

Zheg · May 2016

staracino_ESO wrote: »

Over the past year or so there have been numerous changes to many abilities. I think there should be a focused pass over all of the costs, as I believe they have been subject to what I would call 'cost drift.' Meaning that the cost is no longer necessarily indicative of the core value of the skill.

Basically, get the entire combat team to sit down and re-evaluate the usage and value of each skill, and assign a new cost accordingly. The results of such a pass could not be in my favor, but if they did it in a way that was both thorough and fair, I would be satisfied either way.

This is a good idea. I think many of these skill costs were derived back when passives were in the game that no longer exist, and when there were soft caps and sets (warlock) that factored into these decisions. The game is very, very different now.

Zheg · May 2016

danno8 wrote: »

@Zheg

It's a strange trend I see with multiplicative things in this game. Like the devs don't understand that when it comes to multipliers you have to be careful where you apply them since they are so much stronger in some scenarios than others.

Like mitigation vs damage. Both use multiplicative values for increasing strength. So while this limits the effectiveness of mitigation, it absolutely skyrockets the effectiveness for damage. This is why many games have damage caps.

I have to admit it was disturbing on PTS when I ran out of magicka on my Templar while soloing a boss in the districts. I had 2100 magicka regen for crying out loud.

The damage creep has been a thing every patch since softcaps were removed. Most new sets we get further damage, not mitigation - so there's that on top of the inherent damage increases with just skills and mechanic changes. Look at what they did with heavy armor as a prime example - they removed it's tankiness and gave it damage. I'm sure wrobel had good intentions, but that move just further demonstrated he doesn't really understand what players want.

As for eclipse, don't get me started. We've blown up the templar threads in this, TG, and pretty much every prior patch complaining about that skill, our passives, our clunkiness, ugh.

Jhunn · May 2016

I'd be pretty excited and optimistic about Dark Brotherhood - if it wasn't for the introduction of poisons and the ability cost increases. I have a feeling solo and small scale PvP is gonna take a serious death blow with this patch.

timidobserver · May 2016

I liked the game better back before the removal of soft caps when everyone didn't have nearly infinite resources. That said, I don't like the idea of poisons and across the board cost increases being used as a mechanism to control resource management. Soft caps didn't favor anyone, but poisons and this across the board cost increase does favor some classes/builds over others.

ADarklore · May 2016

To be fair, they stated that this wasn't an INTENTIONAL cost increase, that it was the result of the conversion from VR to CP. Time will tell how this actually applies on Live and whether or not people are actually running out of resources or not. Sad that most of the high-end jewelry doesn't seen to actually offer 'cost reduction' but focuses mostly on regen and max pool.

Jar_Ek · May 2016

The increased skill costs also hit stamina builds more heavily than magicka...because stamina builds use magicka for utility skills (cost increases), but magicka generally don't use stamina for weapon/fighters guild/armour skills but for cc break, and dodge rolls (no extra increase). Naturally both are hit on their primary skill use.

Pomaikai · May 2016

@Wroebel plays, if he even plays at all, Elder Nightblades Online. Everything else is just designed to be gank food for them.

Once you understand that, you can take your dry pounding with every patch and DLC with a knowing grimace.

Vaoh · May 2016

I'm a bit confused. Here are a few questions I'd love if anyone could answer:

So I understand that base costs are increasing, and should theoretically put a dent in the infinite resource issue that has caused the dodge roll nerf, streak nerf, shield nerf, never ending duels, etc. What I want to know is how much are resource costs increasing?

It sounds like those with 500CP will not feel it much, while those with 100CP-300CP absolutely will. Or.... is the resource cost increase scaled with your CP count?

It seems to me that the Champion System needs have some of those hefty 25%+ values toned down or made into flat bonuses.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · May 2016

Zheg wrote: »

@Wrobel in your sorc QA thread you responded to this question:

Magicka Costs Increasing: Can you please look into this? I understand that this is happening to every class across the board, but with the costs of everything going up, this change is adding insult to injury. And there is already plenty of injury here, and that's being as polite about this patch as I am realistically able.

with this answer:

With the removal of Veteran Ranks we wanted ability costs to increase in a more reliable and understandable way. Veteran Ranks used a different calculation for ability cost increase from the level 1-50 experience. With this change, abilities now continue to increase their costs at the same linear pace. This also means cost reduction passives and gear should now return the values listed in the tooltips instead of using a more complex formula.
There are quite a few builds that generate a large number of resources and we expect some players will end up changing their current setup. While costs are higher, note that you can now get increased resource returns from heavy attacks that now scale their return as you gain Champion Points. Additionally, enchantments are now more powerful and restore more resources than they used to. There are also poisons which give you additional options for getting more resources.

I'm not getting any indication that you've considered how the cost increase affects different classes. Some classes (cough cough NBs) have substantially lower base skill costs (...in addition to the best resource management options in the game, both passive and active), and others have substantially higher base skill costs. When you increase skill costs across the board, this is going to impact the other classes far more than the class with low skill costs. To use fudged numbers as an example:

Breath of Life costs 4000 base. A 10% increase in cost will be 400 extra magicka.
Funnel Health costs 1500 base. A 10% increase in cost will be 150 extra magicka.

Yes, the two skills are apples to oranges, but overall, classes with low skill costs are going to be better off. It's the same problem as two that you introduced in the TG patch. Fasalla's impacts templars far more than the rest, and the rapids nerf impacts templars and DKs far more than the rest. When you make changes like this it's NOT an even impact among the classes, and it's frustrating that one class in particular always seems to come out ahead. Now throw on poisons increasing the costs 60% more ... FFS, NB can still hit funnel health or SA without much impunity because those skills are cheap to begin with. A BoL or sorc mines or wings or whatever is going to be much more difficult. This doesn't need to be a 'wait and see' type of thing, I can tell you what will happen in pvp just like I was able to tell you what would happen with your siege buffs, VD, mitigation nerfs, mobility nerfs, heal nerfs. The meta played out to a T a month after people read the patch notes, even before we were able to see it on PTS.

Across the board ability cost increases and poison cost increases will end up helping NB more than any other class, saying that heavy attacks and poison resource return are viable options (that NB also have access to) is asinine, so please don't do it. It's almost like there's a trend when it comes to the balance we get.

Breathe of Life is a powerful 36m burst heal. Strife is an Attack that has a HoT on it. No Mage build I have in any class has a problem with with magic management even the ones that run with two swords. Keep in mind Argonians are the only race I ever play as in any Elder Scroll game it's not like I'm getting a race recovery or max magic buff.

This will really hurt StamBlades we have to Attack, Heal, roll and worse of all block all with stamina. With everyone stacking Physical and Critical resistance you have to then stack damage buffs, armor penetration and defensive powers it's hard to find room for Siphoning Attacks if you actually use both bars in combat if you have a real bar and a buff bar then yea easy but having a ranged and Melee bar makes it a hard pick.

Zheg · May 2016

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

@Wrobel in your sorc QA thread you responded to this question:

Magicka Costs Increasing: Can you please look into this? I understand that this is happening to every class across the board, but with the costs of everything going up, this change is adding insult to injury. And there is already plenty of injury here, and that's being as polite about this patch as I am realistically able.

with this answer:

With the removal of Veteran Ranks we wanted ability costs to increase in a more reliable and understandable way. Veteran Ranks used a different calculation for ability cost increase from the level 1-50 experience. With this change, abilities now continue to increase their costs at the same linear pace. This also means cost reduction passives and gear should now return the values listed in the tooltips instead of using a more complex formula.
There are quite a few builds that generate a large number of resources and we expect some players will end up changing their current setup. While costs are higher, note that you can now get increased resource returns from heavy attacks that now scale their return as you gain Champion Points. Additionally, enchantments are now more powerful and restore more resources than they used to. There are also poisons which give you additional options for getting more resources.

I'm not getting any indication that you've considered how the cost increase affects different classes. Some classes (cough cough NBs) have substantially lower base skill costs (...in addition to the best resource management options in the game, both passive and active), and others have substantially higher base skill costs. When you increase skill costs across the board, this is going to impact the other classes far more than the class with low skill costs. To use fudged numbers as an example:

Breath of Life costs 4000 base. A 10% increase in cost will be 400 extra magicka.
Funnel Health costs 1500 base. A 10% increase in cost will be 150 extra magicka.

Yes, the two skills are apples to oranges, but overall, classes with low skill costs are going to be better off. It's the same problem as two that you introduced in the TG patch. Fasalla's impacts templars far more than the rest, and the rapids nerf impacts templars and DKs far more than the rest. When you make changes like this it's NOT an even impact among the classes, and it's frustrating that one class in particular always seems to come out ahead. Now throw on poisons increasing the costs 60% more ... FFS, NB can still hit funnel health or SA without much impunity because those skills are cheap to begin with. A BoL or sorc mines or wings or whatever is going to be much more difficult. This doesn't need to be a 'wait and see' type of thing, I can tell you what will happen in pvp just like I was able to tell you what would happen with your siege buffs, VD, mitigation nerfs, mobility nerfs, heal nerfs. The meta played out to a T a month after people read the patch notes, even before we were able to see it on PTS.

Across the board ability cost increases and poison cost increases will end up helping NB more than any other class, saying that heavy attacks and poison resource return are viable options (that NB also have access to) is asinine, so please don't do it. It's almost like there's a trend when it comes to the balance we get.

Breathe of Life is a powerful 36m burst heal. Strife is an Attack that has a HoT on it. No Mage build I have in any class has a problem with with magic management even the ones that run with two swords. Keep in mind Argonians are the only race I ever play as in any Elder Scroll game it's not like I'm getting a race recovery or max magic buff.

This will really hurt StamBlades we have to Attack, Heal, roll and worse of all block all with stamina. With everyone stacking Physical and Critical resistance you have to then stack damage buffs, armor penetration and defensive powers it's hard to find room for Siphoning Attacks if you actually use both bars in combat if you have a real bar and a buff bar then yea easy but having a ranged and Melee bar makes it a hard pick.

Did you miss the part where I said the numbers were fudged purely for an example of how higher base cost are impacted more than lower base costs? Or the part afterwards where I said comparing funnel health to BoL is apples to oranges? I don't need you to tell me what the two skills do, thanks.

As for magicka management, builds are structured to allow you to function without having to worry about your main resource. Some classes have an far greater tool set to reach that comfort level. NB can weave in more light attacks/do nothing thanks to siphon attacks and pretty much stay at the same point they're currently at, thanks in addition to the lower on avg base costs of their skills. The other classes will need to invest further into resource management at the expensive of dmg/survivability to remain at their current baseline. THAT is the point. Changes like this are not across-the-board, and I'd like for Wrobel to at least be thinking about these things when he's tweaking balance.

I'm sorry, but stamblades are not going to be hurt all that much compared to the other archetypes because again, siphon attacks. Are you really going to complain when there are stam sorcs or stamplars that will have a much harder time dealing with the resource costs?

DDuke · May 2016

I posted this on the Sorcerer feedback thread, but I feel it's relevant here as well:

DDuke wrote: »

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

WHY OH WHY WOULD ANYONE SUGGEST WE BE PUNISHED FOR USING OUR DEFENSIVE ABILITY??

This is actually a good thing to bring up though, so I feel like making another post about it.

How balance is usually achieved is that you get rewarded for landing combos & putting pressure on the opponent. Defensive skills are the "oh ***" buttons that save you when your opponent is doing better, or abilities used to counter specific instances of burst damage that you have anticipated in advance.

In other games, you'd force your opponents to use their defensive cooldowns & such - in a non-cooldown game like ESO you should force your opponent to use more resources by making them go on the defensive.

The problem currently is that defensive skills aren't the "oh ***" buttons - they're just buttons you spam and you are not punished for doing that.

Your opponent is not rewarded for landing combos & keeping up pressure, he is in fact the one getting punished because offensive actions are not as cost-effective as defensive ones.

What happens is that an endless quagmire of two opponents spamming defensive skills ensues, which lasts until one side gets bored (or instagibbed).

Needless to say, this is not enjoyable gameplay and it's something that needs to be fixed before Arenas/Battlegrounds are implemented (where gameplay is much more focused on 1v1s or 2v2s etc) - else I'm afraid those are going to be poorly received by the general populace.

At the moment on Live, it's usually the defensive skills that are more expensive than the offensive ones (you brought up BoL vs Strife).

By increasing cost of all skills by % modifier, ZOS atleast somewhat alleviates the problem of defensive skills being more cost-efficient than offensive ones - but they still have a long way to go if they are to fix the infinite fights that are currently a daily occurrence in PvP.

Zheg · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

I posted this on the Sorcerer feedback thread, but I feel it's relevant here as well:

DDuke wrote: »

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

WHY OH WHY WOULD ANYONE SUGGEST WE BE PUNISHED FOR USING OUR DEFENSIVE ABILITY??

This is actually a good thing to bring up though, so I feel like making another post about it.

How balance is usually achieved is that you get rewarded for landing combos & putting pressure on the opponent. Defensive skills are the "oh ***" buttons that save you when your opponent is doing better, or abilities used to counter specific instances of burst damage that you have anticipated in advance.

In other games, you'd force your opponents to use their defensive cooldowns & such - in a non-cooldown game like ESO you should force your opponent to use more resources by making them go on the defensive.

The problem currently is that defensive skills aren't the "oh ***" buttons - they're just buttons you spam and you are not punished for doing that.

Your opponent is not rewarded for landing combos & keeping up pressure, he is in fact the one getting punished because offensive actions are not as cost-effective as defensive ones.

What happens is that an endless quagmire of two opponents spamming defensive skills ensues, which lasts until one side gets bored (or instagibbed).

Needless to say, this is not enjoyable gameplay and it's something that needs to be fixed before Arenas/Battlegrounds are implemented (where gameplay is much more focused on 1v1s or 2v2s etc) - else I'm afraid those are going to be poorly received by the general populace.

At the moment on Live, it's usually the defensive skills that are more expensive than the offensive ones (you brought up BoL vs Strife).

By increasing cost of all skills by % modifier, ZOS atleast somewhat alleviates the problem of defensive skills being more cost-efficient than offensive ones - but they still have a long way to go if they are to fix the infinite fights that are currently a daily occurrence in PvP.

I'm not following. You say defensive skills cost more, so a flat increase in % costs will make those skills harder to cast than offensive ones. That would favor offensive skills.

dsalter · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

I posted this on the Sorcerer feedback thread, but I feel it's relevant here as well:

DDuke wrote: »

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

WHY OH WHY WOULD ANYONE SUGGEST WE BE PUNISHED FOR USING OUR DEFENSIVE ABILITY??

This is actually a good thing to bring up though, so I feel like making another post about it.

How balance is usually achieved is that you get rewarded for landing combos & putting pressure on the opponent. Defensive skills are the "oh ***" buttons that save you when your opponent is doing better, or abilities used to counter specific instances of burst damage that you have anticipated in advance.

In other games, you'd force your opponents to use their defensive cooldowns & such - in a non-cooldown game like ESO you should force your opponent to use more resources by making them go on the defensive.

The problem currently is that defensive skills aren't the "oh ***" buttons - they're just buttons you spam and you are not punished for doing that.

Your opponent is not rewarded for landing combos & keeping up pressure, he is in fact the one getting punished because offensive actions are not as cost-effective as defensive ones.

What happens is that an endless quagmire of two opponents spamming defensive skills ensues, which lasts until one side gets bored (or instagibbed).

Needless to say, this is not enjoyable gameplay and it's something that needs to be fixed before Arenas/Battlegrounds are implemented (where gameplay is much more focused on 1v1s or 2v2s etc) - else I'm afraid those are going to be poorly received by the general populace.

At the moment on Live, it's usually the defensive skills that are more expensive than the offensive ones (you brought up BoL vs Strife).

By increasing cost of all skills by % modifier, ZOS atleast somewhat alleviates the problem of defensive skills being more cost-efficient than offensive ones - but they still have a long way to go if they are to fix the infinite fights that are currently a daily occurrence in PvP.

infinite fights are far less often than 5second fights.... this is why i dislike the softcap removal.

DDuke · May 2016

Zheg wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I posted this on the Sorcerer feedback thread, but I feel it's relevant here as well:

DDuke wrote: »

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

WHY OH WHY WOULD ANYONE SUGGEST WE BE PUNISHED FOR USING OUR DEFENSIVE ABILITY??

This is actually a good thing to bring up though, so I feel like making another post about it.

How balance is usually achieved is that you get rewarded for landing combos & putting pressure on the opponent. Defensive skills are the "oh ***" buttons that save you when your opponent is doing better, or abilities used to counter specific instances of burst damage that you have anticipated in advance.

In other games, you'd force your opponents to use their defensive cooldowns & such - in a non-cooldown game like ESO you should force your opponent to use more resources by making them go on the defensive.

The problem currently is that defensive skills aren't the "oh ***" buttons - they're just buttons you spam and you are not punished for doing that.

Your opponent is not rewarded for landing combos & keeping up pressure, he is in fact the one getting punished because offensive actions are not as cost-effective as defensive ones.

What happens is that an endless quagmire of two opponents spamming defensive skills ensues, which lasts until one side gets bored (or instagibbed).

Needless to say, this is not enjoyable gameplay and it's something that needs to be fixed before Arenas/Battlegrounds are implemented (where gameplay is much more focused on 1v1s or 2v2s etc) - else I'm afraid those are going to be poorly received by the general populace.

At the moment on Live, it's usually the defensive skills that are more expensive than the offensive ones (you brought up BoL vs Strife).

By increasing cost of all skills by % modifier, ZOS atleast somewhat alleviates the problem of defensive skills being more cost-efficient than offensive ones - but they still have a long way to go if they are to fix the infinite fights that are currently a daily occurrence in PvP.

I'm not following. You say defensive skills cost more, so a flat increase in % costs will make those skills harder to cast than offensive ones. That would favor offensive skills.

Exactly.

Though these changes are far from enough when it comes to making offensive skills the more cost-effective ones.

All I'm saying is, costs increasing is a good thing (particularly when combined with the +60% cost increase poisons).

Rakkul · May 2016

This, together with the other meandering revisions, gives the appearance of a development team that has lost it's way.

I don't know who is driving the latest raft of changes - including the dismal mass poisons online - but they really need to bring in some external expertise, even on a short term contract basis, to bring themselves back on track.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · May 2016

Zheg wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

@Wrobel in your sorc QA thread you responded to this question:

Magicka Costs Increasing: Can you please look into this? I understand that this is happening to every class across the board, but with the costs of everything going up, this change is adding insult to injury. And there is already plenty of injury here, and that's being as polite about this patch as I am realistically able.

with this answer:

With the removal of Veteran Ranks we wanted ability costs to increase in a more reliable and understandable way. Veteran Ranks used a different calculation for ability cost increase from the level 1-50 experience. With this change, abilities now continue to increase their costs at the same linear pace. This also means cost reduction passives and gear should now return the values listed in the tooltips instead of using a more complex formula.
There are quite a few builds that generate a large number of resources and we expect some players will end up changing their current setup. While costs are higher, note that you can now get increased resource returns from heavy attacks that now scale their return as you gain Champion Points. Additionally, enchantments are now more powerful and restore more resources than they used to. There are also poisons which give you additional options for getting more resources.

I'm not getting any indication that you've considered how the cost increase affects different classes. Some classes (cough cough NBs) have substantially lower base skill costs (...in addition to the best resource management options in the game, both passive and active), and others have substantially higher base skill costs. When you increase skill costs across the board, this is going to impact the other classes far more than the class with low skill costs. To use fudged numbers as an example:

Breath of Life costs 4000 base. A 10% increase in cost will be 400 extra magicka.
Funnel Health costs 1500 base. A 10% increase in cost will be 150 extra magicka.

Yes, the two skills are apples to oranges, but overall, classes with low skill costs are going to be better off. It's the same problem as two that you introduced in the TG patch. Fasalla's impacts templars far more than the rest, and the rapids nerf impacts templars and DKs far more than the rest. When you make changes like this it's NOT an even impact among the classes, and it's frustrating that one class in particular always seems to come out ahead. Now throw on poisons increasing the costs 60% more ... FFS, NB can still hit funnel health or SA without much impunity because those skills are cheap to begin with. A BoL or sorc mines or wings or whatever is going to be much more difficult. This doesn't need to be a 'wait and see' type of thing, I can tell you what will happen in pvp just like I was able to tell you what would happen with your siege buffs, VD, mitigation nerfs, mobility nerfs, heal nerfs. The meta played out to a T a month after people read the patch notes, even before we were able to see it on PTS.

Across the board ability cost increases and poison cost increases will end up helping NB more than any other class, saying that heavy attacks and poison resource return are viable options (that NB also have access to) is asinine, so please don't do it. It's almost like there's a trend when it comes to the balance we get.

Breathe of Life is a powerful 36m burst heal. Strife is an Attack that has a HoT on it. No Mage build I have in any class has a problem with with magic management even the ones that run with two swords. Keep in mind Argonians are the only race I ever play as in any Elder Scroll game it's not like I'm getting a race recovery or max magic buff.

This will really hurt StamBlades we have to Attack, Heal, roll and worse of all block all with stamina. With everyone stacking Physical and Critical resistance you have to then stack damage buffs, armor penetration and defensive powers it's hard to find room for Siphoning Attacks if you actually use both bars in combat if you have a real bar and a buff bar then yea easy but having a ranged and Melee bar makes it a hard pick.

Did you miss the part where I said the numbers were fudged purely for an example of how higher base cost are impacted more than lower base costs? Or the part afterwards where I said comparing funnel health to BoL is apples to oranges? I don't need you to tell me what the two skills do, thanks.

As for magicka management, builds are structured to allow you to function without having to worry about your main resource. Some classes have an far greater tool set to reach that comfort level. NB can weave in more light attacks/do nothing thanks to siphon attacks and pretty much stay at the same point they're currently at, thanks in addition to the lower on avg base costs of their skills. The other classes will need to invest further into resource management at the expensive of dmg/survivability to remain at their current baseline. THAT is the point. Changes like this are not across-the-board, and I'd like for Wrobel to at least be thinking about these things when he's tweaking balance.

I'm sorry, but stamblades are not going to be hurt all that much compared to the other archetypes because again, siphon attacks. Are you really going to complain when there are stam sorcs or stamplars that will have a much harder time dealing with the resource costs?

Honestly I feel for Stamina Sorcerer having one myself, but it's a f*cking Sorcerer classes were balanced based on play styles. Nightblade can heal and Tank but they are not the best suited for the roles, much better DPS tanks or DPS healers but DPS is not a tank or healers job it's nice to have but that's not their role.

Templars and Dragon Knights are not canons they are Warriors. Their bonuses are not geared for burst builds they are designed to outlast. Make an heavy armor DPS Stamina Templar, Dragon Knight or Sorcerer and tell me they under preform.

staracino_ESO · May 2016

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

@Wrobel in your sorc QA thread you responded to this question:

Magicka Costs Increasing: Can you please look into this? I understand that this is happening to every class across the board, but with the costs of everything going up, this change is adding insult to injury. And there is already plenty of injury here, and that's being as polite about this patch as I am realistically able.

with this answer:

With the removal of Veteran Ranks we wanted ability costs to increase in a more reliable and understandable way. Veteran Ranks used a different calculation for ability cost increase from the level 1-50 experience. With this change, abilities now continue to increase their costs at the same linear pace. This also means cost reduction passives and gear should now return the values listed in the tooltips instead of using a more complex formula.
There are quite a few builds that generate a large number of resources and we expect some players will end up changing their current setup. While costs are higher, note that you can now get increased resource returns from heavy attacks that now scale their return as you gain Champion Points. Additionally, enchantments are now more powerful and restore more resources than they used to. There are also poisons which give you additional options for getting more resources.

I'm not getting any indication that you've considered how the cost increase affects different classes. Some classes (cough cough NBs) have substantially lower base skill costs (...in addition to the best resource management options in the game, both passive and active), and others have substantially higher base skill costs. When you increase skill costs across the board, this is going to impact the other classes far more than the class with low skill costs. To use fudged numbers as an example:

Breath of Life costs 4000 base. A 10% increase in cost will be 400 extra magicka.
Funnel Health costs 1500 base. A 10% increase in cost will be 150 extra magicka.

Yes, the two skills are apples to oranges, but overall, classes with low skill costs are going to be better off. It's the same problem as two that you introduced in the TG patch. Fasalla's impacts templars far more than the rest, and the rapids nerf impacts templars and DKs far more than the rest. When you make changes like this it's NOT an even impact among the classes, and it's frustrating that one class in particular always seems to come out ahead. Now throw on poisons increasing the costs 60% more ... FFS, NB can still hit funnel health or SA without much impunity because those skills are cheap to begin with. A BoL or sorc mines or wings or whatever is going to be much more difficult. This doesn't need to be a 'wait and see' type of thing, I can tell you what will happen in pvp just like I was able to tell you what would happen with your siege buffs, VD, mitigation nerfs, mobility nerfs, heal nerfs. The meta played out to a T a month after people read the patch notes, even before we were able to see it on PTS.

Across the board ability cost increases and poison cost increases will end up helping NB more than any other class, saying that heavy attacks and poison resource return are viable options (that NB also have access to) is asinine, so please don't do it. It's almost like there's a trend when it comes to the balance we get.

Breathe of Life is a powerful 36m burst heal. Strife is an Attack that has a HoT on it. No Mage build I have in any class has a problem with with magic management even the ones that run with two swords. Keep in mind Argonians are the only race I ever play as in any Elder Scroll game it's not like I'm getting a race recovery or max magic buff.

This will really hurt StamBlades we have to Attack, Heal, roll and worse of all block all with stamina. With everyone stacking Physical and Critical resistance you have to then stack damage buffs, armor penetration and defensive powers it's hard to find room for Siphoning Attacks if you actually use both bars in combat if you have a real bar and a buff bar then yea easy but having a ranged and Melee bar makes it a hard pick.

Did you miss the part where I said the numbers were fudged purely for an example of how higher base cost are impacted more than lower base costs? Or the part afterwards where I said comparing funnel health to BoL is apples to oranges? I don't need you to tell me what the two skills do, thanks.

As for magicka management, builds are structured to allow you to function without having to worry about your main resource. Some classes have an far greater tool set to reach that comfort level. NB can weave in more light attacks/do nothing thanks to siphon attacks and pretty much stay at the same point they're currently at, thanks in addition to the lower on avg base costs of their skills. The other classes will need to invest further into resource management at the expensive of dmg/survivability to remain at their current baseline. THAT is the point. Changes like this are not across-the-board, and I'd like for Wrobel to at least be thinking about these things when he's tweaking balance.

I'm sorry, but stamblades are not going to be hurt all that much compared to the other archetypes because again, siphon attacks. Are you really going to complain when there are stam sorcs or stamplars that will have a much harder time dealing with the resource costs?

Honestly I feel for Stamina Sorcerer having one myself, but it's a f*cking Sorcerer classes were balanced based on play styles. Nightblade can heal and Tank but they are not the best suited for the roles, much better DPS tanks or DPS healers but DPS is not a tank or healers job it's nice to have but that's not their role.

Templars and Dragon Knights are not canons they are Warriors. Their bonuses are not geared for burst builds they are designed to outlast. Make an heavy armor DPS Stamina Templar, Dragon Knight or Sorcerer and tell me they under preform.

The current model of the game does not support the 'outlast' playstyle. It is too easy to burst someone down, even through heavy defenses. The only counter to this is molten armor. Either raising the defense caps or reintroducing softcaps would be a good first step to alleviate this. I personally would favor adding softcaps first.

K4RMA · May 2016

rip

susmitds · May 2016

Most stamina builds already suffer from horrendous sustain. This patch will make it even worse.

dodgehopper_ESO · May 2016

danno8 wrote: »

staracino_ESO wrote: »

Over the past year or so there have been numerous changes to many abilities. I think there should be a focused pass over all of the costs, as I believe they have been subject to what I would call 'cost drift.' Meaning that the cost is no longer necessarily indicative of the core value of the skill.

Basically, get the entire combat team to sit down and re-evaluate the usage and value of each skill, and assign a new cost accordingly. The results of such a pass could not be in my favor, but if they did it in a way that was both thorough and fair, I would be satisfied either way.

So many examples.

But here is a funny one: Eclipse costs the same as BoL.

Eclipse should GIVE me magicka back for wasting my time. :P