Gidorick wrote: »

Your Skyrim-only status is showing @notimetocare

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Intrinsic_Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes

Every core TES game prior to Skyrim had predefined classes. Now, Oblivion did allow for Custom Classes (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Character_Creation#Custom_Classes) which I think would be cool with ESO but to say that the "idea is awful to the flavor of a TES game" is just incorrect.

Even Skyrim's world had classes, but they were only used by NPCs (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Classes) I always took the class-less nature of the player in Skyrim to be a symptom of him/her being The Dovahkiin.

Quite false, and the comparison is 100% useless. The class in previous TES games was nothing comparable to ESO and how ESO works. If you honestly make that comparison, you might be the one to never play previous TES games. I could pick any class in Morrowind or Oblivion and still use everything in the game with the exception of very high level spells in Morrowind. ESO actually restricts the game from its class systems. So tell me again how the comparison works?

Put simply: You are comparing almost non-restrictive class systems to a restrictive class system. That is an willfully ignorant comparison.

And as an amusing note, the difference of classes in Skyrim on NPCs is partly a programming choice. Making a 'class' and giving it specific stats makes it easy to copy the NPC around the world and track its stats. It is still also very different from player classes in ESO and other TES titles.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I have to admit, I play my first templar patterned after D&D "Paladin" as well, so the "Crusader" idea was derived entirely from that starting point. (that's her backstory too, an orc who choose to follow Stendarr because... "JUSTICE!" instead of Mauloch, and ended up vestige after banishment from her clan for that "heresy"... and if I ever get to rename her to something orky sounding, I'll totally add her to the characters I'd roleplay with for this fluff!)

And like mentioned I consider it important that people do not loose anything when they might gain a fourth skill line through class morph. Since loosing things is not a good feeling, and I want these options to make people feel better about playing their characters, not otherwise...
So, you wouldn't loose anything, all the old Templar stuff would still be on a characters fingertips. Just with some new options to enjoy. And a new color, for more visual class varietee.

Ye'h. This is all good to hear, yes.

And yeah, my main character (Dar-Marsh) is my symbol thru-out Elder Scrolls. I created him in every single TES game I play as my main and primary character (obviously, I'll create other characters but Dar-Marsh is my main one that I put a lot of time into).

He's a little messed up. Generally, I go with the idea of being a 2H Heavy Armored Paladin using Restoration Magic, Alteration Magic, and a bit of Destruction Magic (storm spells goes nice with the Holy idea. This is mostly because TES games usually lack a good variety of holy spells). Due to how different it all works in ESO, I have to make due. I use Destruction Staff when being magical and 2H when well using 2H. My 2H being my primary weapon (so I put more into stamina).

But what I also do, which is strange to a lot of people, is I make Dar-Marsh a werewolf as well. To him, going to Hircine's Realm upon death is a punishment he puts on himself. If he failed his duty to protect the citizens, then may he forever be punished by living with one of the Daedric Princes. (Though he has respect for Hircine but prefer to have a different afterlife).

Would be nice to have more options to better flash out this playthrough, yes.

I've been hoping for some sort of class morph/specialization for a while now, like in DA:I. It is an interesting way to add more skills to choose from.

On the other hand, there are already so many skills not on my bars.

Gidorick wrote: »

@notimetocare, I think the main problem is with the way ESO skills were designed at their core. The fact that we don't have attributes and the absence of the different magic skill lines like destruction, conjuration, illusion, etc.... are two HUGE ways ESO diverges from the "TES formula"... but man that ship has sailed, been set on fire, and sunk looong ago. This seemed like it was going to be somewhat addressed with spell crafting but who knows what's gong on there.

Probably the largest way the classes of ESO that diverges from classic TES games is player skills. Skills, as they are in ESO, are just flat-out a new thing in the TES franchise. And, as you mentioned in your original post, this is really because of MMO tropes. I'll admit, I actually never considered that they were completely new to the franchise until @dodgehopper_ESO pointed out my error in perspective ... so... facepalm for me, I guess.

I actually responded to @dodgehopper_ESO saying that a system where all skills are available to all classes but each class keeps their passives might be better ESO. I think that would make it more "free".

I admit that I've only REALLY played a Dragon-Knight in ESO and I've never come across anything I couldn't do in ESO because I wasn't a different class... what can you "not do" in ESO because of your class? Can you be a "thief" without being a nightblade? Can you be a Healer without being a Templar? You can join both guilds. I would really like to know, not counting class skills... where does class limit us in the game?

I would have personally preferred the classes work more similarly to other TES games. I have long hated that we don't have all the D&D-esque attributes in ESO and I loathe that we are pretty much all wizards, but these are things I've accepted because this is an MMO.

In the absence of attributes, and many of the world skills (Speechcraft NOT being it's own skill line and seemingly split up between the guilds is a TRAVESTY!) I think the classes in ESO is a good concession. It would be much better than NO classes with ESO's current setup. The skills replace the attribute specializations of the previous titles and I personally feel that more classes, as outlined by this concept, would make ESO feel much more like the previous TES titles. This is because each class is given a morph that would allow the player to specialize their skillsets or really change their skills to a different focus, widening the player choices as they level.

But dude... you and @dodgehopper_ESO have really made me lament the fact that we don't have attributes in ESO!

I do need to add that you are right, the correlation between classes in ESO and classes in other TES games is wrong. The purpose they serve is just different because what classes do for us in other TES games is not in any way the same as what they do for us in ESO. However, I still think ESO having classes makes it more "like" other TES games than it makes ESO "unlike" other TES games.

I just want to start by saying I wasn't knocking what you were saying @Gidorick, but we've had banter back and forth a number of times so I think you know that. I just was pointing out the themes going back to the original games this one was based upon. I agree with you with regard to the classes of ESO following old themes in the series. The Templar class is an all new class (unless you consider Custom classes - I don't) but it suits a number of themes that @TheShadowScout has enumerated in his morph suggestion. The point is that in broad strokes the classes do exemplify a lot of the major styles available in previous TES games.

The reason I really like the notion of Spellcrafting in ESO is that it would bring a lot of that same feeling of the 'sky is the limit' while still starting us all out in those formative templates that the class represents. Spellcrafting could also help ZoS fill in the gaps where obviously a gap needs filling. A specific case in point is the lack of frost/ice magic available to players. Currently players really only have access to one morph of a mages guild skill (Ice Comet) and some of the Ice Staff skills (some of them are not even really ice specific). Fire and Lightning on the other hand see use throughout the DK, Templar and Sorcerer skill lines.

When they release Spellcrafting they are going to have to reconsider some class mechanics. If they were to release Spellcrafting today it would heavily advantage classes like Sorcerer and to a lesser extent DK, specifically because of the kinds of passives both classes have. I've explained in other areas why I believe this is the case, but in short the problem is related to the huge cost reductions and regenerations built into Sorc, and the way Battle Roar works on DK. Both of these classes also have strong bonuses to their specific elemental types which could be taken well advantage of by a customizable system like Spellcrafting. It is my suspicion that this is why they haven't released the system yet. They're just kicking the can down the road however, because every time they give us new skill lines (DB, TG, etc) it will start to advantage those classes more and more. Classes like Templar on the other hand would do very poorly in the Spellcrafting system in large part because most of the Templar abilities/passives are worthless with respect to outside skills. This is a huge function of the nerf in passives to Restoring Light and the nerf in beta to Templar regeneration (Which we essentially see existent in Nightblades today). Nightblades would at the least have some benefit with regard to criticals, regen and possibly maximum stats - but I still believe Sorc and DK win on this deal in their current design.

I'm saying all of this to let you know that I'm not suggesting they should necessarily do away with Classes, and I do realize we have to work with the framework that ZoS has already developed. My suggestions are not intended as a pie in the sky list of wishes for ESO. I suppose I believe ZoS still intends to release Spellcrafting. A lot of people have assumed that they aren't based upon the slow rollout of its development and the loss of one of the developers of the system. I don't believe they invested so much work/money/time/marketing on the Spellcrafting system to let it fizzle out. ESO's business model changed and a lot of the core systems have changed. They need time to rethink/redevelop in order to fit the Spellcrafting system in. Even in recent days the balancing of the Champion System is an ongoing concern, so I personally see why they are holding off on releasing something which could be utterly game-breaking without getting balance under wraps currently.

I like your suggestion @Gidorick that they find a way to open up some of the class skills, or at least give us something analogous via Spellcrafting. That is really what I was suggesting earlier. I also love @TheShadowScout 's morph idea. I think they could probably shuffle a few things around potentially but the general premise I think is great, and I've said as such before. For example I would probably shift Monk to Templar and Shaman to Nightblade, simply to fit theme in the TES series a little better. The Monk of previous TES games has a much more Templar feel than Nightblade feel, to me, in large part because it has more of what I would call 'Western Influences'. The Monk of previous TES games while it did have unarmed combat, did not rely on that skill much. I can remember my first play through of Morrowind as a Monk and I tried to punch my way through. I quickly learned it was a very inefficient route. Monk was a great class though and it is what hooked me on alchemy in the series. I think Shaman would also go great with Nightblade for the 'healer spec' and fit the style quite well, so in my mind at least the two would be a great tradeoff. This is just nitpicking though on how each of us view the themes of the class, and really a minor concern. I like the idea in broad strokes. I think the fun of leaving it as you have it, is that it would spread pets out to more classes.

@Gidorick your quest line for classes suggestion, would that be seen as tutorial?

Gidorick wrote: »

I just had a little thought about the quest line for the classes. Remember how in the older tes games you had to answer a series of questions and then the game would suggest a class for you? I was really love that creation process.

That could be how this class quest line could work. each quest you go on gives you 3 ways to complete the quest and depending on how many quest you complete in whichever way you get a recommendation of what class you should morph to. Of course you wouldn't have to be that class. It would just be a recommendation based on your choices.

And then that specific classes quest line would be really specialized for that class.

I remember these from Morrowind. It was so much fun answering these questions. Still remember voice of this NPC saying "Ahhhh yes, we've been expecting you".

Back to topic, I agree with idea of morphing class. Unfortunately it is a looooot work to do for programers, so even if concept will be accepted by team, we can wait ages for that.

TwoFingersInCider wrote: »

show previous quotes

TotterTates wrote: »

Love the concept, though PVPers would be upset if it was linked to PVE content... heavens forbid.

Yea.. But wouldn't be easy to play the game with balancing it out? No more update. More time to play to be honest I like pvp but sometimes it ruins the game.. So many spent hours just to fix a class..

I would put the word fix in quotations. "Fix".

Unless they make all the skills identical work just different effects I don't think they will ever be able to balance everything.

I like class morphs if they aren't massive changes. I started sketching some out but haven't had a chance to finish them. Only did a little bit for a couple of dragonknight options, though one for templars not written about until now would include immunity to fear effects. Smaller changes would be easier to balance, and even to stack if you wanted more progression later. For purposes of reducing homogenization and making Alliance choice meaningful the morph options for classes could be tied to Alliance. Otherwise I like @Gidorick's idea from the first TES games, but not until you get to a certain level.

Maybe the Alliance specific options could go with Backgrounds if not with Class Morphs. But definitely some customization would reinvigorate the game for long time players.

notimetocare wrote: »

Eh... hate to interrupt the ***, but I think the idea is awful tot he flavor of a TES game. There is too much limitation and specialization in this system. Classes in the first place are limiting to a TES theme, but they required for an MMO so I have yet to complain about what is in now. Adding in 3 subclasses is just too much. Even games that have 4 classes and 2 subclasses are just irritatingly limiting (current example being swtor that a friend urged me to join him on). Leave it as is or just actually push for a full new class that only has the 3 class restricted skill lines.

Path of Exile (PoE) involves 7 classes and 19 recently added sub-classes. It's still one of the games with the most customizability ever, imho. I find the idea of sub-classes very adequate for TESO, it would both improve character customization and gameplay, while also being a great way of giving players more options to develop their character towards roleplaying and commitment to existing characters (that means less newer characters -> less efforts to get all characters to lv cap -> less reasons to feel repetitive game experiences). This would be many things, but not a limit.

very cool O:

Your suggestions imply builds will be more "Specific" to a single role.

That goes precisely against Elder Scrolls Online "Play your way" slogan.
Won't happen.
period.