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What about account shared achievments?
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AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FilteredRiddle wrote: »Yes, PLEASE. I have done 97% of the content on my main, and I have 4 alts. It is very frustrating that my 'Monster Hunter', 'Savior of Nirn', 'Tamriel Hero', etc, are all stuck on my main.
On the other hand, that is what keeps me playing alts. I'd much rather farm chests on a toon that doesn't have the "Treasure Hunter" achievement yet than my first two characters who already have it. Clearing Cyrodiil for the 4th time is more fun than going there with a character that has already done everything.Tavore1138 wrote: »Best of both worlds would be if we had both a character and an account view for this. Personally I see each character as seperate so would hate to see the hard mode trials listed against a newly rolled toon but being able to have an account view to see which ones I have never done would be interesting too.
That way everyone should be reasonably content - achieve based titles should only apply to a character that has done it though.
Yeah, that would be cool. As long as an achievement was fully achieved by ONE character. If they ever made the "kill X of Y" account wide they would have to at least quadruple the numbers.The Moot Councillor0 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
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Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.No an achievement shows what a player has done.
The achievements in ESO -are- character specific. It means, they show what a character has achieved - guided by the player of course, but specific to the character.
They are made to be that way by the developers.
You just keep arguing they should be changed.
That does not mean they "show what a player has done", it just mean you -think- they -should- "show what a player has done.
You just try to use such rethoric to support your point of view.
That does not make it truth.
And if you spend effort to earn a TV for your living room that does not mean you get a copy of that TV in every other room.In most cases it doesn't mean which toon was used. It doesn't matter which hockey stick was used by P.Kane to win a stanley cup. Moreover, if - and it happened to me - the achievement is gone on 1 character, does it mean that I haven't spent effort? No it doesn't. The effort was spent.
You spent the effort for a title for -One- character.
Does not mean the same effort should buy yout he title for -All- characters.
And if you have an artist paint a picture on your car, and later scrap that car, does that mean the effort of painting the picture is magically copied to your new car? No? Then why should it for characters?If someone learnt a rare motif, crafted gear for another player and then deleted the crafter, is the crafted gear gone? No, the effort was spent and the gear is crafted, but who crafted it if that character doesn't exist? Everything done in this game is done by a player. Characters spend no effort, players do.
Not quite. The title can be shown ot it can not be shown, but once earned, it is never removed - its right there in your list of available titles.There is no contradiction. It's a temporary physical change. The title can be removed as well. Wanna look at my character in-game and try and guess which achievements I have? For all you know I can have none or all of them.
I am not concerned about someone not showing what they archieved with that character.
I would hate it though if they could show what they did not achieved with that character just because they achieved it with another character. No matter if skill based (where you concede the point) or mere patience based.
Ah, so you think fraudulent aution offers are okay?It doesn't matter, whichever stick is yours is a champion's stick and will be sold on the auction when you're dead as a champion's stick. Moreover, during the NHL season you use more than 1 stick. THere's no 1 stick you won the championship with. And no, there's no such thing as "the stick what won you the championship" not just because you used more than one, but also because it's YOU WHO WON the championship, not a stick. Sticks are interchangeable in this equation, but a player isn't. Another player wouldn't do as well with the same sticks.
Check the real world, buddy - some people are willing to pay quite a bit for the cape Bela Lugosi wore in "Dracula", if you sell them something else from his wardrobe under the title, you'd have to explain it to a judge.
Now, I have no idea about NHL customs, since its of no interest to me, so I really cannot comment about that particular example.
But again, if you sell something under false pretenses, like a plastic kiddie baseball bat that the baseball champion owned, as the "bat that won the baseball championship", you -are- lying...
So why should it be okay to do the same with ESO titles?
...and all the achievements say "this character" right now.This is what it is. Put a car and driver separately and see which one of them will get to the destination first.Or should I say - at all? And yes if a sticker specifically says "this car" - it's one thing, but if a sticker just says "rome" or has an italian flag or something - then it doesn't matter which car you put it on and it's not gonna be a lie.
You want them to say "this player" because you think they should.
I disagree.
That is why we argue.
I happen to think the achievement journal in ESO should keep referring to character achievements. For all the reasons stated.
I would not mind an additional account wide player achievemts tab, for those who want to check their player achievements.
But I do not agree the current character achievements should be changed to player achievements.
Yes, it WOULD be shared.No, it won't be shared. It's THE PLAYER who spent the effort. He doesn't share effort with other players. It's just him alone. In a hot dog contest if it lasted many days, other players would also eat hot dogs for more than 1 day, so it's not granted that I would've won.
Because right now, you will have to put in extra work above and beyond what you rack up purely by playing through the story. No matter how many characters you run.
And if it was shared, you could collect several mainstories worth of effort, for all your characters, thgus the end effort would be lessened, because the effort spent on your alts would count double, once just to get them through the story, and twice to also fill a share of the achievements.
Which is what you are arguing for - count all the hot dogs, not just the ones eaten at the contest.
And I keep saying, wanna win the title, put in the effort as designed, and don't try to rule-lawyer your way to a shortcut.
You do realize you are starting to sound incoherent?Yes, if you have a player who is the achievement hunter and you know they are players like that - then you force them to pvp/pve if there are achievements for those things. But that isn't that bad until you start requiring more than 1 character.
No, it's a game, not ***. Developers are supposed to create a fun atmosphere, so players can have fun and achieve their goals and not be forced to do anything. Completionists are a huge percent of players and zos knows that. And players asked for achievement system way before release, thats' why we have it. The only problem they didn't have enough time to make it account-wide like it was supposed to be in 2014.
Not enough time???
Look at tall the things they HAD time to do!
Look at all the things they added and changed!
If they wanted it account wide, they could quite easily have done it that way with the addition of the dye system.
As for the forced thing... I say aggain, noone is "forced" to do anything in the game. They can -choose- to do something. Sometimes they may have to weigh their choices - consider if getting what they want is worth putting in the effort. And thus PvPlayers have to consider running dungeons for the undaunted achievements, and PvE-lovers have to consider PVPing for the PvP achievements (and PvPing a Lot for some of them...). Why should the addition of multi-character achievements be so much worse then those? Those who really want to "complete", will spend the effort. Those who dislike multiple characters will pass those achievementy by. Each as they choose.
You seem to keep saying, "fun" should be getting your goals handed to you on a silver platter, getting it made laughably easy for -everyone-
I keep saying, doing that lessens the value, and that having many achievements in all flavors of effort needed to get them is a good thing...
Wrong.No, in most achievements it does not matter which tool was used. Therefore, if it's like that right now - it has to be fixed asap. It's extremely annoying.
Its annoying to you, because your -you- it may not matter.
It is enjoyable for me, because for -me- it matters.
And even if we leave the tool matters be,
True.It doesn't even make your tool special. It makes YOU special. If you killed a dragon and then lost a sword - the dragon is still dead, you still are the one who killed him. The effort still was spent.
Make a screenshot, post it on your facebook page or something.
THAT is YOUR "Dragonslayer" title.
But the sword?
It only gets the "Dragonslayer" title if it was the sword that had slain the dragon.
Your other swords don't.
Nor. Should. They.
HAH!And yes it does. Any of my swords can cut the grass. It's my skill that makes it possible. All that's needed from a sword is to be sharp enough and be there.
Sharp enough And Be There!
All many, many achievements need is for a character To Be There!
Still doesn't mean those characters of yours that weren't there can lay claim to a lofty title, nor that they should.
Then maybe you should keep to logic, faulty or otherwise, and refrain from personal attacks?I never run out of logic. It's just not possible.
What did I just say?Yeah, maybeyou started first. And no, you aren't. You are just not capable of getting very simple logic and this particular example reveals it. But really, not insulting you - you should seriously consult a specialist about it. No joke, it might be serious.
I get your logic.
I just do not agree with it.
Because I as a roleplayer have a different point of view about the basic nature of achievements.
You seem to be labouring under a delusion that just because something is virtual, it does not exits. Do you also think that just because your mind is not a solid object to be touched, it does not exist? I would disagree... yes, even in Your case.Of course you need to tell virtual and real world apart. Nothing in virtual world exists. There're players and they control all characters. So characters spend no effort - players do.
Yes, players spend the effort. Through their characters. Just like a player without character cannot effect anything in the virtual world (unless he is hacking, and that would be against the rules), a character without player doesn't do anything. Duh.
But while players spend the effort, they spend the effort Through Their Characters.
The player does not get a "Master Angler" certificate printed our by the game - their character gets the title unlocked.
The player does not get a fine for being caught stealing in the game - they characters do.
The player does not get gold from defeating monmsters - their characters do.
Tools do not get honorary titles?See? Seriously though, do something about that thing with you and logic. Again, you are talking about a tool-specific sticker, whereas most of them are not. A player can be doing it with many tools changing them every now and then. In the end - the fish is caught and he's the one who caught it. Tools don't get honorary titles, masters do.
You may want to check myth and legends, both old and new, and you will find a great many tools who recieved titles. Be it a sword of renown, be it a plane, be it a spear or be it a ship, be it a hammer or a broom, those are all tools, and yet they earned their titles.
But again, the core of our disagreement is that you see the characters as mere tools, while I see them as -characters-. if you like, we could say they may be tools the game is -pretending- to be people, just like the mobs in the bgame are lines of code the game is pretending to be enemies. So all those "pretend" titles go to the tools pretending to be people. And Not to the people playing them.
Just like the titles of a movie character go to the character and not the actor playing them. Will Shatner did not become a captain - Kirk did. Ian McKellen did not become a white wizard - Gandalf did. Carrie Fisher did not become a resistance leader - Leia did.
You did not become a "Master Angler".
That one character of yours did.
You keep doing it...No offence, but really - get it checked.
And those stickers are costumes.That's exactly what I said - when a particular car is important - your stickers are car-specific. Like inspection or something like that. There are also stickers that can be put on any car and it won't be illegal. Those are shared.
All the others are car(acter) specific.
Even the ones who only say "this car(acter) has been there"
You keep saying that senteance.They won't change anything for you. You will still keep what you had and you won't be forced to look at your total achievements or use the titles. Your enjoyment won't decrease, while ours will increase + it can bring more players to the game (or back to the game). Positive-sum strategy for sure.
I do not think it means what you think it means...
If you devalue achievements by adding effort from multiple characters, things change. If you make titles account wide, things change.
If they just added an account overview option without those changes to the character select screen, nothing would change for me and you still could chack your account overview.
So I am starting to wonder if that is what you are after, or as I suspect, you want the "gimme" option for achievements instead to have it easy across all characters...
I agree that there is precendet.So did you argue about it when they announced it? Link, please. Looks like no, you just came to troll in this topic. And anyways, if you want to be consistent, you need to understand, that the precedent is created already. There are account-wide things that are included for convenience. No reason not to make another system more convenient for many players.
That is what I meant back when I stated that ESO already gives more account-wide stuff then any other game I personally ever played.
And that is why I see no reason to make even more account wide. Despite many people wanting it easy, and arguing for account wide crafting research, account wide riding training, account wide achievements.
I argue against them when people on the forums whine for it.
But I am not engaged in delusions of grandeur to think I could change the minds of the powers that be and argue against any of ZOS announcements. I expect they have their own considerations, and until and unless one of the developers contacts me and wants to talk about their developments (an event which I reckopn has about the same chance of occuring then a lottery win), I would not bother...
Still can't help but attack me when your argument fails, huh?No, I'm just showing you where your arguments fall apart. You're either trolling - then that's how it's uncovered, - or you truly think you are consistent. In this case might print this thread and highlight the moments when I called you a troll, so whenever you go to a specialist to check it, he will have easier time looking for examples and maybe identifying why you have this problem. Stay strong, it's not terminal.
Why do so many people say "no offence" when they obviously try to convey just that?I'm not trying to offend you, I'm just saying what I see. You are indeed inconsistent and can't get simple things in a couple of places in the comment. And it keeps happening, so I just assumed it's something that you might wanna check. Nothing personal here, anyone who would think like in those places would make me confused. So, no offence.
Not that I would take anything like that to heart... not from someone who has yet to prove worthy of consideration.
Now you are starting to get it!If it's a "THIS CAR" sticker - then yes. If it's a "THIS RACE champion" sticker - then no. Don't you see that you're walking in circles? Is it really that hard to understand, that in some cases characters matter in others(all grindy achievements that don't require skill) - they don't?
I keep saying, character achievements are "THIS CAR", because the character is not the player, and because as a roleplayer, I see them that way, as "pretend title" measure of the characters "pretend" deeds. And that is how it works in ESO at this time.
You keep fraudulently claiming that character achievements are "THIS CHAMPION", you keep meaning that they -should be- that in ESO, and the game should be changed to follow your point of view.
I keep disagreeing.
And once again... I ask: Why don't we just agree to disagree and move on?
I will never agree with your point of view.
You seem unlikely to ever agree with mine.
I keep mentioning this, keep offering a truce if you will.
You keep insulting me in lieu of argument, keep claiming your logic is flawless and mine is faulty, and keep arguing.
Some sticks do, actually. Oh, sure, it is not stamps, generally... signatures perhaps, or plaquettes (around here, there is this tradition of affixing those to wanderers sticks, to show where the stick has been...)Ahaha ok I see it now. You are a humanities major. Notice how you still didn't comment on the main part, but instead react to something unimportant. I'll repeat: NO stick gets the stamps as sticks are replaceable/interchangeable. More over, some will be thrown (a character deleted) away and some will be made way after the season where he won. But they still will be sticks of a champion. Titles should be shared absolutely. No question about this.
And yes, sometimes they get lost with the stick.
But it does not neccessarily follow that sticks or other such things are all interchangable. Sure, they start out that way... but as soon as one gets some distinguishing mark, it becomes special.
For some that may be because some champion (yes, there is the player again) showed great skill and won something. And those then may get auctioned off on some event... but because "the stick that was used by thw winner in this special championship match" goes for thousands of dollars doe snot mean the champions other sticks used in less epic occasions now are worth the same.
And for other sticks, its not what they have been used to archieve in a skillful way, but it may be that they have been in the right place at the right time and have someone famous put their signature on them. Or get a plaquette affixed. Or something like that. Which also can have some sort of value, depending on how many people get it...
Still does not mean that all other sticks have the same value.
And yet you keep saying, sticks have no value, only the player does.
And I keep disagreeing.
And you keep saying, it'd be fun for you to have all your sticks have all the things YOU did.
And I keep saying, I much prefer it if they have all the things I did WITH THEM instead, because I do different things with different characters.
We will not agree.
So I keep suggesting that the best idea would be to split the effect, agree to disagree, find what we can agree on, and discuss the idea of adding a new account achievement overview tab of some sort.
But sticks can be used to win. And even if the stick was exactly the same as all other sticks, the very fact that it weas the stick the champion happened to grab on the day he won the championship match (or something else of note above all the "usual") can make it a "collectors item" as you can easily find out - look at some auctions of such stuff, you will spot such things being sold off at a value high above that of all other sticks the champion played with, yes?What? Sticks DO NOT WIN anything. There's no such thing as the stick that won the grand championship. If you let it participate if will just be lying where you left it. Also, players use more than 1 stick throughout the season.
Your OPINION is that titles should be shared. This Is Not A Fact. It is an opinion. Nothing more, no matter how much you claim otherwise.It's not an opinion. It's a fact. If I spent the effort - the effort was spent. If something got messed up but it's easily fixable - there's no reason not to fix it. In this case - there's no reason to force players to do stuff again if zos can just change the system to avoid it all together.
Mine differs.
Yes, effort is spent. And sometimes things mess up, and the effort is not recorded. Sometimes you are ehead in the race, and about to win... and then ther race gets broken off because of a storm or something (or in the case of a computer game, because the power goes out). It happens.
And changing the system would NOT save your effort in such cases...
I am saying, what people cosnider "fun" or not is dependent on the people, and you do not speak for all of them.Or are you saying that players should be forced to do something not fun when you can easily avoid that and do something that most people will enjoy more? With this approach, I'm wondering how soon would your game got free-to-play if you were to own one.
I am saying, if you really want something on an alt, you should spend the effort to earn it on that alt as well.
I am saying, if you do not feel spending the effort "fun", you probably don't want it enough in the first place.
I am saying, the game should not hand -everything- to people on a silver platter, but have some nifty things requiring a good deal of effort to attain, that is what makes those things so nifty after all.
The "not loosing anything" faulty argument aside...The looks can be different of course. No one said ALL players loved it (pls check that thing with logic). If players who don't love it don't lose anything and other players love it - then it should be implemented.
If some players love it and some players hate it, then it maybe should be reworked into something all players can feel happy with. Maybe not quite as much as the "love it" players want, maybe not quite as little as the "hate it" players want... the truth is usually between the extremes.
But the players can only do it through their characters.The character did NOT visit anything, did NOT spend any time. The car didn't visit anything and the stick didn't win anything. It was all the player. Characters DO NO DO anything whatsoever. They also don't pay sub and don't buy crowns. Players do all that and players spend effort.
So how about... we make all achievements that can be won without using a character account wide, and leave all those you need a character to get like they are now?
No, it is not. Since you do not speak for all of us."We" is all creatures capable of reading and logical/critical thinking.
Yes, I get it, you try to decree me as incapable of logical thinking, making yet another attack against the person. You obviously learned dirty rethorical tricks. Congratulations.
But just because I do not agree with your "the player is doing all, the character is irrelevalt" logic because I have a different point of view does not mean I am incapable of logiocal or critical thinking. No matter how much you try to pain me thusly.
I recall you stating that:I don't call system names. I'm just saying the facts.
I would say, calling the system something that forums have to auto-censor fulfills the definition og "calling names" rather then "stating facts" - you do the former, and not the latter.And just because the game was designed some way, it doesn't mean it wasn't ***...
EXACTLY. As I keep saying...No, an achievement shows whatever the devs made it to show. While many games/platforms have account-wide achievements, ESO does not, and the achievements that are in the game right now only make sense as applied to the character that earned them.
EXACTLY. Someone who gets it. Welcome to the group of people "incapable of critical/logical thinking" according to a certain someone...On the other hand, that is what keeps me playing alts. I'd much rather farm chests on a toon that doesn't have the "Treasure Hunter" achievement yet than my first two characters who already have it. Clearing Cyrodiil for the 4th time is more fun than going there with a character that has already done everything.Tavore1138 wrote: »Best of both worlds would be if we had both a character and an account view for this. Personally I see each character as seperate so would hate to see the hard mode trials listed against a newly rolled toon but being able to have an account view to see which ones I have never done would be interesting too.
That way everyone should be reasonably content - achieve based titles should only apply to a character that has done it though.
Yeah, that would be cool. As long as an achievement was fully achieved by ONE character. If they ever made the "kill X of Y" account wide they would have to at least quadruple the numbers. 1 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheShadowScout wrote: »Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
The achievements in ESO -are- character specific. It means, they show what a character has achieved - guided by the player of course, but specific to the character.
They are made to be that way by the developers.
You just keep arguing they should be changed.
That does not mean they "show what a player has done", it just mean you -think- they -should- "show what a player has done.
You just try to use such rethoric to support your point of view.
That does not make it truth.
No, only some of them are. It doesn't matter which character learnt a motif or picked up 10000 resources.
In wow they were made for characters only too at first. Those guys had an excuse because they were first. zos just didn't have time to finish their game, no less. Everyone(not literally obviously) was asking for account-wide achievements starting from beta-tests.
Yeah it does make it that. They indeed show what a player has done, because characters do nothing - players control them.
Because it's 2 different rooms. And it's not an analogy at all, because the relationships between objects aren't conserved, so come up with another one. Also, it's a game, it has to cut corners in situations like that. Absolutely no reason to force players to do monotonous and boring grind more than once. I am the one spending the effort AND paying. TV is just bought once, it's not even similar.TheShadowScout wrote: »And if you spend effort to earn a TV for your living room that does not mean you get a copy of that TV in every other room.
You spent the effort for a title for -One- character.
Does not mean the same effort should buy yout he title for -All- characters.
Because painting a car is like applying a costume. Achievement/title show what has been done by a person. Said it many times.TheShadowScout wrote: »And if you have an artist paint a picture on your car, and later scrap that car, does that mean the effort of painting the picture is magically copied to your new car? No? Then why should it for characters?TheShadowScout wrote: »Not quite. The title can be shown ot it can not be shown, but once earned, it is never removed - its right there in your list of available titles.
I am not concerned about someone not showing what they archieved with that character.
I would hate it though if they could show what they did not achieved with that character just because they achieved it with another character. No matter if skill based (where you concede the point) or mere patience based.
For all you know they did achieve it with this character if it is technically possible. It's been said many times - that condition must be met, so you don't see lowbie stormproofs. So yeah, for all you know - he did achieve it, so why do you care? And yes, of course it matters if it's patience based - those don't require skills with certain characters.TheShadowScout wrote: »Ah, so you think fraudulent aution offers are okay?
Check the real world, buddy - some people are willing to pay quite a bit for the cape Bela Lugosi wore in "Dracula", if you sell them something else from his wardrobe under the title, you'd have to explain it to a judge.
Lol are you reading? Where did I say that? There's a cape he had in dracula. There's no such thing as a the stick that WON the championship, because it's the player who won and he used more than 1 stick. Again, you're trying to mix cape-specific and stick non specific things.TheShadowScout wrote: »But again, if you sell something under false pretenses, like a plastic kiddie baseball bat that the baseball champion owned, as the "bat that won the baseball championship", you -are- lying...
So why should it be okay to do the same with ESO titles?
And again, there's no such thing as the "bat the won the baseball championship". Bats don't win anything. They are just lying around. But, the plastic bat is the bat owned by a baseball champion. Yes it would be not only okay but much needed to do the same with ESO titles - a character owned by a player who left click 1 million times to get all the rare fish, for example. Because that IS what titles are essentially are.TheShadowScout wrote: »...and all the achievements say "this character" right now.
You want them to say "this player" because you think they should.
I disagree.
That is why we argue.
No they don't say anything like that, anything about the character. They address you as the second person! YOU, not the character. Character doesn't read, character doesn't have any achievement tabs and can't press J. The game addresses YOU. And achievements are like: "(YOU) complete this", "(YOU) collect this" etc. They are not in the third person.
So yeah, that's for pointing that out. The game already has the achievements as something that players complete.TheShadowScout wrote: »I happen to think the achievement journal in ESO should keep referring to character achievements. For all the reasons stated.
I would not mind an additional account wide player achievemts tab, for those who want to check their player achievements.
But I do not agree the current character achievements should be changed to player achievements.
No, the journal in ESO ALREADY refers to player's achievements(see above). I ask you to find achievements that mention "this character" or address him as the third person. They all address YOU, a player, not the character. And when you complete them -you put a check mark there, meaning that YOU completed it. Well because that's what happened - characters don't complete anything, players do.TheShadowScout wrote: »Yes, it WOULD be shared.
Because right now, you will have to put in extra work above and beyond what you rack up purely by playing through the story. No matter how many characters you run.
And if it was shared, you could collect several mainstories worth of effort, for all your characters, thgus the end effort would be lessened, because the effort spent on your alts would count double, once just to get them through the story, and twice to also fill a share of the achievements.
Which is what you are arguing for - count all the hot dogs, not just the ones eaten at the contest.
And I keep saying, wanna win the title, put in the effort as designed, and don't try to rule-lawyer your way to a shortcut.
Shared between who and who? There's only ONE person spending effort! Running story always contributed to the achievements. It doesn't matter. That's a dumb argument, just drop it. You can't back it up.
There's no contest. And if there is - it doesn't matter, it just changes its rules. Because all hot dogs would could for everyone who participates the contest, not just me. Therefore- everyone is in the same conditions, so the contest is fair.TheShadowScout wrote: »You do realize you are starting to sound incoherent?
Not enough time???
Look at tall the things they HAD time to do!
Look at all the things they added and changed!
If they wanted it account wide, they could quite easily have done it that way with the addition of the dye system.
As for the forced thing... I say aggain, noone is "forced" to do anything in the game. They can -choose- to do something. Sometimes they may have to weigh their choices - consider if getting what they want is worth putting in the effort. And thus PvPlayers have to consider running dungeons for the undaunted achievements, and PvE-lovers have to consider PVPing for the PvP achievements (and PvPing a Lot for some of them...). Why should the addition of multi-character achievements be so much worse then those? Those who really want to "complete", will spend the effort. Those who dislike multiple characters will pass those achievementy by. Each as they choose.
You seem to keep saying, "fun" should be getting your goals handed to you on a silver platter, getting it made laughably easy for -everyone-
I keep saying, doing that lessens the value, and that having many achievements in all flavors of effort needed to get them is a good thing...
No, they couldn't have it done easily. Gina Bruno commented on this, there was a link in this or a similar thread. It's difficult to create that system, so they are focusing on other things now - more content.
No, multi-character achievements are artificial time-sink. Players shouldn't be forced to play more than one character. There are players who are completionists and want to get every achievement. PvE vs PvP is fine because you only do it with one character. Not everyone likes playing alts - they create 1 toon who is their alter ego and they don't have more than one alter ego.
No, nothing will be easier, let alone handed to you.No, in most achievements it does not matter which tool was used. Therefore, if it's like that right now - it has to be fixed asap. It's extremely annoying.
No, not to me only, that's why threads like that keep appearing. Do you really think it's the first one? We had those before the game was released.TheShadowScout wrote: »
Wrong.
Its annoying to you, because your -you- it may not matter.
It is enjoyable for me, because for -me- it matters.
And even if we leave the tool matters be, .
Yes, if it's enjoyable for you and not enjoyable for me - then it HAS to be fixed. Because if it's fixed - you don't lose anything AND it will become enjoyable for me.TheShadowScout wrote: »True.
Make a screenshot, post it on your facebook page or something.
THAT is YOUR "Dragonslayer" title.
But the sword?
It only gets the "Dragonslayer" title if it was the sword that had slain the dragon.
Your other swords don't.
Nor. Should. They.
Facebook is not related to the game, I need to be able to have that "screenshot" in game, which is what accound-wide achievemnt/title would be. Other swords get "Dragonslayer's sword" titles. All of them. And that's what all the titles essentially are. "A character of a player who did X".
If a title requires a character to be there - should be shared. If it requires the character - it shouldn't.TheShadowScout wrote: »HAH!
Sharp enough And Be There!
All many, many achievements need is for a character To Be There!
Still doesn't mean those characters of yours that weren't there can lay claim to a lofty title, nor that they should.TheShadowScout wrote: »You seem to be labouring under a delusion that just because something is virtual, it does not exits. Do you also think that just because your mind is not a solid object to be touched, it does not exist? I would disagree... yes, even in Your case.
Yes, players spend the effort. Through their characters. Just like a player without character cannot effect anything in the virtual world (unless he is hacking, and that would be against the rules), a character without player doesn't do anything. Duh.
But while players spend the effort, they spend the effort Through Their Characters.
The player does not get a "Master Angler" certificate printed our by the game - their character gets the title unlocked.
The player does not get a fine for being caught stealing in the game - they characters do.
The player does not get gold from defeating monmsters - their characters do.
It does not exist. They are just images.
Master Angler doesn't exist - it's a check mark in a database proving that A PLAYER clicked LMB multiple times and got all rare fish. A characted didn't do anything.
There's no fine and if there's - players get it, of course. Characters don't own anything. Gold is just another line in code showing what players have.
There is no gold - there's just a variable in database somewhere, which describes what player got.
Do characters have their banks? Do characters join guild? Do characters hop in TS while completing trials?
There's no such thing as a character as a subject. They don't do anything, don't get anything, don't unlock anything. The game just doesn't fully reflect it. It reflects it somewhere, but not everywhere yet.
Characters don't do anything. Players do. A title means - this character belongs to a player who did that and that. We just want it reflected in the game, but without breaking your immersion. So that you can still play your characters as characters, tracking their progress and whatnot, while we can just show off what WE DID.TheShadowScout wrote: »Tools do not get honorary titles?
You may want to check myth and legends, both old and new, and you will find a great many tools who recieved titles. Be it a sword of renown, be it a plane, be it a spear or be it a ship, be it a hammer or a broom, those are all tools, and yet they earned their titles.
But again, the core of our disagreement is that you see the characters as mere tools, while I see them as -characters-. if you like, we could say they may be tools the game is -pretending- to be people, just like the mobs in the bgame are lines of code the game is pretending to be enemies. So all those "pretend" titles go to the tools pretending to be people. And Not to the people playing them.
Just like the titles of a movie character go to the character and not the actor playing them. Will Shatner did not become a captain - Kirk did. Ian McKellen did not become a white wizard - Gandalf did. Carrie Fisher did not become a resistance leader - Leia did.
You did not become a "Master Angler".
That one character of yours did.TheShadowScout wrote: »
You keep saying that senteance.
I do not think it means what you think it means...
If you devalue achievements by adding effort from multiple characters, things change. If you make titles account wide, things change.
If they just added an account overview option without those changes to the character select screen, nothing would change for me and you still could chack your account overview.
So I am starting to wonder if that is what you are after, or as I suspect, you want the "gimme" option for achievements instead to have it easy across all characters...
They don't change for you, they don't change qualitatively. What you call an account overview is what we want. Achievements won't be unlocked on all characters. Some titles would be shared, dyes are already shared. So we have the precedent - achievement rewards can be shared. But I wouldn't be able to just use them.TheShadowScout wrote: »I agree that there is precendet.
That is what I meant back when I stated that ESO already gives more account-wide stuff then any other game I personally ever played.
And that is why I see no reason to make even more account wide. Despite many people wanting it easy, and arguing for account wide crafting research, account wide riding training, account wide achievements.
I argue against them when people on the forums whine for it.
But I am not engaged in delusions of grandeur to think I could change the minds of the powers that be and argue against any of ZOS announcements. I expect they have their own considerations, and until and unless one of the developers contacts me and wants to talk about their developments (an event which I reckopn has about the same chance of occuring then a lottery win), I would not bother...
Because it was created keeping in mind that things are account-wide. They didn't pretend it's a world where characters live. The game breaks the 4th wall from the get-go. You see your @GameID in all your guilds etc. We don't want it easy. We want it consistent with the fact that players play the game, not the characters, the fact already admitted by zos through account-wide guilds etc.
They never fail, some people just fail to understand. read what you quoted there again - it explains precisely what's happening there. Also "still" doesn't apply here, it's not a chat, the entire post was written at the same time, you only asked not to attack you later.TheShadowScout wrote: »Still can't help but attack me when your argument fails, huh?TheShadowScout wrote: »Now you are starting to get it!
I keep saying, character achievements are "THIS CAR", because the character is not the player, and because as a roleplayer, I see them that way, as "pretend title" measure of the characters "pretend" deeds. And that is how it works in ESO at this time.
You keep fraudulently claiming that character achievements are "THIS CHAMPION", you keep meaning that they -should be- that in ESO, and the game should be changed to follow your point of view.
I keep disagreeing.
And once again... I ask: Why don't we just agree to disagree and move on?
I will never agree with your point of view.
You seem unlikely to ever agree with mine.
I keep mentioning this, keep offering a truce if you will.
You keep insulting me in lieu of argument, keep claiming your logic is flawless and mine is faulty, and keep arguing.
But character achievements aren't "THIS CAR". They are "YOU". I am not fraudulently claiming this. Just look - all the achievements address you as the 2nd person, not the character. Get killed by slaughter fish, become emperor, complete a dungeon, deconstruct 100 items etc. And when you complete them - they are unlocked, they don't say "this character got killed by slaughter fish". There's no mention of a character anywhere in the achievements. Or at least I didn't find one. You feel free to find it and point to it.
Oh yeah, I keep doing that, you feel free to agree to disagree and move on. I never force you to reply.TheShadowScout wrote: »Some sticks do, actually. Oh, sure, it is not stamps, generally... signatures perhaps, or plaquettes (around here, there is this tradition of affixing those to wanderers sticks, to show where the stick has been...)
And yes, sometimes they get lost with the stick.
But it does not neccessarily follow that sticks or other such things are all interchangable. Sure, they start out that way... but as soon as one gets some distinguishing mark, it becomes special.
For some that may be because some champion (yes, there is the player again) showed great skill and won something. And those then may get auctioned off on some event... but because "the stick that was used by thw winner in this special championship match" goes for thousands of dollars doe snot mean the champions other sticks used in less epic occasions now are worth the same.
And for other sticks, its not what they have been used to archieve in a skillful way, but it may be that they have been in the right place at the right time and have someone famous put their signature on them. Or get a plaquette affixed. Or something like that. Which also can have some sort of value, depending on how many people get it...
Still does not mean that all other sticks have the same value.
And yet you keep saying, sticks have no value, only the player does.
And I keep disagreeing.
And you keep saying, it'd be fun for you to have all your sticks have all the things YOU did.
And I keep saying, I much prefer it if they have all the things I did WITH THEM instead, because I do different things with different characters.
We will not agree.
So I keep suggesting that the best idea would be to split the effect, agree to disagree, find what we can agree on, and discuss the idea of adding a new account achievement overview tab of some sort.
Yes, all this long paragraph just reiterates what I said many times - some titles are character-specific while others are not.
Stick can only have value because of the player. No stick won the champion. The title would say "stick used by a champion". Which is what we want in-game. But because that will ruin 'mersion, sharing some titles is better.
Yes, but you wouldn't want an achievement saying "a character of a player who got %titlename". Collectors items are an exception. We're talking about the entire system. Where you would have exceptions too - character-specific things like no-death vma run.TheShadowScout wrote: »But sticks can be used to win. And even if the stick was exactly the same as all other sticks, the very fact that it weas the stick the champion happened to grab on the day he won the championship match (or something else of note above all the "usual") can make it a "collectors item" as you can easily find out - look at some auctions of such stuff, you will spot such things being sold off at a value high above that of all other sticks the champion played with, yes?TheShadowScout wrote: »Your OPINION is that titles should be shared. This Is Not A Fact. It is an opinion. Nothing more, no matter how much you claim otherwise.
Mine differs.
Yes, effort is spent. And sometimes things mess up, and the effort is not recorded. Sometimes you are ehead in the race, and about to win... and then ther race gets broken off because of a storm or something (or in the case of a computer game, because the power goes out). It happens.
And changing the system would NOT save your effort in such cases...
No, it is a fact that the effort was spent. YOu can measure it, you can document it. Therefore it's a fact. Why were you offended by humanities major again? I mean you do "think" like one.
So why have this kind of *** in the game? Where it can easily be fixed? You still didn't reply to that. If you already had a document and lost it - they usually recover it for you or give you the same one later. If you graduate from school but then lose your diploma - it won't mean that you don't have your degree anymore. Even if the records are lost. YOu still went to school, studied etc - the effort was spent.TheShadowScout wrote: »I am saying, what people cosnider "fun" or not is dependent on the people, and you do not speak for all of them.
I am saying, if you really want something on an alt, you should spend the effort to earn it on that alt as well.
I am saying, if you do not feel spending the effort "fun", you probably don't want it enough in the first place.
I am saying, the game should not hand -everything- to people on a silver platter, but have some nifty things requiring a good deal of effort to attain, that is what makes those things so nifty after all.
No one considers dumb grind fun. NO there are multiple precedents that I shouldn't spend effort on an alt separately. I can share all gear via bank, I can receive weekly rewards earned by main with alts.TheShadowScout wrote: »The "not loosing anything" faulty argument aside...
If some players love it and some players hate it, then it maybe should be reworked into something all players can feel happy with. Maybe not quite as much as the "love it" players want, maybe not quite as little as the "hate it" players want... the truth is usually between the extremes.
It's not faulty.
Exactly that. So instead of having account achievements ONLY we only ask for something wow-like with shared dyes/titles (but only some titles and only if certain conditions met).TheShadowScout wrote: »But the players can only do it through their characters.
So how about... we make all achievements that can be won without using a character account wide, and leave all those you need a character to get like they are now?
Yes, it's the rules of the game. And hockey players have to use hockey sticks and helmets etc.
If he plays half of the game with a stick and then replaces it with another one - it doesn't mean the game has to be restarted.TheShadowScout wrote: »No, it is not. Since you do not speak for all of us.
Yes, I get it, you try to decree me as incapable of logical thinking, making yet another attack against the person. You obviously learned dirty rethorical tricks. Congratulations.
Of course I don't speak for all of "you", I speak for all of "us", creatures capable of reading and logical/critical thinking. Isn't that what I said?TheShadowScout wrote: »But just because I do not agree with your "the player is doing all, the character is irrelevalt" logic because I have a different point of view does not mean I am incapable of logiocal or critical thinking. No matter how much you try to pain me thusly..
No, it's not because you disagree, it's because in many places in the comments you demonstrate the incapability to grasp very simple things. I'm very objective in this matter. I pointed out those few places, I didn't say anything when you were just disagreeing.
And yes, things can be ***. It's not name calling if they are and you call them what they are.
No, an achievement shows whatever the devs made it to show. While many games/platforms have account-wide achievements, ESO does not, and the achievements that are in the game right now only make sense as applied to the character that earned them.No an achievement shows what a player has done.
This makes absolutely no sense. All the achievements address a player, not a character. "Do that", "pick up this", "complete that".Edited by Artis on May 14, 2016 6:50PM1 -
Iluvrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭And my post was to add credence to the idea that more than one type of person plays this game, i.e. more than one breed. Hence my rebuttal of your quote.
So the rest of my post wasn't worth addressing? Interesting. Just because you didn't get it, doesn't mean it was worthless. Something to consider, perhaps.
Obviously more than one. At least two in any MMO. But they aren't that different apart from what content they enjoy playing.
Good of you to accept that different breeds of player do exist. They are that different. The fact that people are disagreeing with you about this is an example of that.Yup, pretty much. Didn't add anything new to the thread. If that was trying to show that one of the characters didn't even go fishing - well then if it all matters to you, do not use the title on him. Problem solved. No one is asking to remove individual progress. Every toon should have their own achi.... ugh just google wow's system or look at the pic I linked at least. That's why not worth addressing - it's just something that was stated many times.
You assume I don't know about WoW's system. You are wrong. I know about WoW's system and I still disagree with you. I do not want to see that system here. I view achievements purely in terms of the character that completed them. I find mechanics that are shared, such as champion points and the bank, to be problematic. I can understand why other people like them for quality-of-life or replayability reasons, but I definitely dislike them.And yes, usually it's the speaker who has something to consider if his target audience doesn't get him. If the comment was addressed to me, it's up to you to make it readable, keeping in mind that not everyone here is an english-speaker.
Utter rubbish. There is no way I can sugar-coat a response to this. The speaker uses the level of english that matches the context. Does this mean that a post shouldn't be filled with utterly obscure vocabulary and shakespearean phrasing? Definitely. On an english-speaking forum there will be a certain level of assumed ability with the language. It is up to the reader to fill in the gaps. If they don't understand something, they can request a clarifying response from the writer (by PM if they are shy). Most people will be kind enough to help out. I have even done this a few times myself when I had trouble with the language being used.
Although physics is my primary focus I also spend time teaching english. I work with students from Junior High-School all the way up to final year University students. They are all ESL students (Japanese), and not even the youngest would have tried to pull what you just did. Try again.3 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭You assume I don't know about WoW's system. You are wrong. I know about WoW's system and I still disagree with you. I do not want to see that system here. I view achievements purely in terms of the character that completed them. I find mechanics that are shared, such as champion points and the bank, to be problematic. I can understand why other people like them for quality-of-life or replayability reasons, but I definitely dislike them.
You can view them as you want. It's the 21st century so you're entitled to your opinion and a bathroom. But the game address the player, not the character. Just read any of the achievements. They all address you using the 2nd person narrative (if I translated the term correctly. IF not what I meant is they say e.g. (YOU) defeat all the bosses).
Yeah and I've been teaching physics in university. So? If a speaker brings up analogy or speak metaphorically it's up to him to choose an analogy that is understandable. I dont' have the trouble with the language there, I've trouble understanding how that part of the post contributes anything new to the discussion. Just that. It's not about language, it's about logic.Utter rubbish. There is no way I can sugar-coat a response to this. The speaker uses the level of english that matches the context. Does this mean that a post shouldn't be filled with utterly obscure vocabulary and shakespearean phrasing? Definitely. On an english-speaking forum there will be a certain level of assumed ability with the language. It is up to the reader to fill in the gaps. If they don't understand something, they can request a clarifying response from the writer (by PM if they are shy). Most people will be kind enough to help out. I have even done this a few times myself when I had trouble with the language being used.
Although physics is my primary focus I also spend time teaching english. I work with students from Junior High-School all the way up to final year University students. They are all ESL students (Japanese), and not even the youngest would have tried to pull what you just did. Try again.1 -
The_Sadist✭✭✭✭✭"Each event is preceded by Prophecy. But without the hero, there is no Event." ― Zurin Arctus, the Underking.Tragrim - How do I work this thing?
Casually stalking the forums0 -
Iluvrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You can view them as you want. It's the 21st century so you're entitled to your opinion and a bathroom. But the game address the player, not the character. Just read any of the achievements. They all address you using the 2nd person narrative (if I translated the term correctly. IF not what I meant is they say e.g. (YOU) defeat all the bosses).
Looking at my achievements journal (I am in game-right now) they are mostly in the passive voice (e.g. "Refine 3000 raw materials"). There are a few that address "you" but those seem to be tied to existing account-wide systems (e.g. "Spend your first Champion Point"). There are others that address the character in the third person (e.g. "Have a character apply a Legendary Enchantment that they created, to a piece of gear that they created). I am not sure that there is enough consistency across the system for anyone to be making the argument for or against account-wise achievements based on the language use in the Journal. Inconclusive.Yeah and I've been teaching physics in university. So? If a speaker brings up analogy or speak metaphorically it's up to him to choose an analogy that is understandable. I dont' have the trouble with the language there, I've trouble understanding how that part of the post contributes anything new to the discussion. Just that. It's not about language, it's about logic.
Except that what I wrote wasn't analogy or a metaphor. It was narrative. An illustration of how, from a roleplayer's point of view, multiple characters working towards the same achievement could be unpalatable.0 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Wrong again. All of them are. Now.No, only some of them are. It doesn't matter which character learnt a motif or picked up 10000 resources.
You just -want- that to change.
Doesn't mean it already has.
Wrong again.They indeed show what a player has done, because characters do nothing - players control them.
They show what a player has done With That Character.
You just -want- them to show what a player has done.
I prefer them to stay as they are now.
You conceded the point for skill based achievements, and rightly so. I just say, it ought to be valid for all of them, even the ones that in your eyes "do not matter" like learning a crafting motiv or collecting an extraordonary amount of resources.
Effort is spent for something. Want a second something? Spend the effort again.Because it's 2 different rooms. And it's not an analogy at all, because the relationships between objects aren't conserved, so come up with another one. Also, it's a game, it has to cut corners in situations like that. Absolutely no reason to force players to do monotonous and boring grind more than once. I am the one spending the effort AND paying. TV is just bought once, it's not even similar.
That is the basic idea I am trying to convey.
But at its core, the disagreement is truly between player-specific vs. character-specific.
Because I see different characters as "different", and you see same player as "same"
And I keep saying, they don't show what was done by a person - they show what was done by a person With That Character.Because painting a car is like applying a costume. Achievement/title show what has been done by a person. Said it many times.
And in the spirit of this metaphor, "applying a costume" would be more like adding a seat cover to your car, since its removable. A painting done by some airbrush artist - not so much. And if you scrap your painted car, its lost - it won't copy over to your other car. So why should archievements?
Because it is still a lie.For all you know they did achieve it with this character if it is technically possible. It's been said many times - that condition must be met, so you don't see lowbie stormproofs. So yeah, for all you know - he did achieve it, so why do you care? And yes, of course it matters if it's patience based - those don't require skills with certain characters.
If they -can- achieve it, they should go out and do it.
Not go like "oh, sure, I could if I really wanted to, but I just am too lazy, so give it to me anyways"
No, I am saying, even if an archievement just required "being there" (like the cape in a movie shooting, or a stick in a championship match - though I suppose that example was not the best one, chalk it up to my nerdyness which kinda excludes sporty knowledge), it still makes it specific to the thingie (cape, stick, character, whatever) that was the one there at the event (movie shooting, championship match, archievement), and not to all the other thingies the person who was there using the thing at the time may have owned.Lol are you reading? Where did I say that? There's a cape he had in dracula. There's no such thing as a the stick that WON the championship, because it's the player who won and he used more than 1 stick. Again, you're trying to mix cape-specific and stick non specific things.
Apologies if that was unclear. It is not the example, it is the pattern beneath.
No, that is what you see titles as.And again, there's no such thing as the "bat the won the baseball championship". Bats don't win anything. They are just lying around. But, the plastic bat is the bat owned by a baseball champion. Yes it would be not only okay but much needed to do the same with ESO titles - a character owned by a player who left click 1 million times to get all the rare fish, for example. Because that IS what titles are essentially are.
I see them differently.
Player-specific vs. character-specific point of view.
But I say again, if you claim to sell a thingie with a "did that was used at this event" title, and then deliver some other thingie the person who used the original thingie happened to own... then you are guilty of fraud. Doesn't matter of it was a baseball bat, or a soccer ball, or whatever.
Statement debunked by others.No they don't say anything like that, anything about the character. They address you as the second person! YOU, not the character. Character doesn't read, character doesn't have any achievement tabs and can't press J. The game addresses YOU. And achievements are like: "(YOU) complete this", "(YOU) collect this" etc. They are not in the third person.
So yeah, that's for pointing that out. The game already has the achievements as something that players complete.
No need to add to that.
Not that I was talking about the rethoric form... but the underlying mechanic instead. I keep saying, the game does only show what players complete With That Specific Character right now.
You want it to change.
And you keep trying to state your point of view as absolute truth. I mean, I get it, it is a rethoric ploy to get people to agree with you - repeat a statement often enough, and hope it seeps in, politicians do it all the time. And yes, it works on the average person. Doesn't mean it works on everyone, nor that people might not recognize the trick.
No, it doesn't.No, the journal in ESO ALREADY refers to player's achievements(see above). I ask you to find achievements that mention "this character" or address him as the third person. They all address YOU, a player, not the character. And when you complete them -you put a check mark there, meaning that YOU completed it. Well because that's what happened - characters don't complete anything, players do.
And you still try to convey your opinion as fact.
The achievements still show what a player completed With That Character.
If you find a skyshard, you find it With That Character.
If you learn a motiv, you learn it With That Character.
If you find a trophy, you find it With That Character.
As for the journal... what do the other tabs of the journal show? They show stuff like which quests That Character has currently active. They show what books That Character has already found. They show where That Character is in cadwells silver/gold.
So much for your "player this, player that" argument...
Shared between characters, duh.Shared between who and who? There's only ONE person spending effort! Running story always contributed to the achievements. It doesn't matter. That's a dumb argument, just drop it. You can't back it up.
There's no contest. And if there is - it doesn't matter, it just changes its rules. Because all hot dogs would could for everyone who participates the contest, not just me. Therefore- everyone is in the same conditions, so the contest is fair.
And sure running story always contributes. But with many achievements, you gotta put in extra effort to get there. Running stories mutiple times would lessen that extra effort, thus cheapening the achievement. Which may please the "everyone's a winner" crowd... but not those who actually spent the extra effort, who enjoy striving towards something that isn't handed to them on a sliver platter - and not just in terms of skill, but also in terms of persistance.
If they can make dyes account wide, and champion points account wide... you really think they could not have made achievements account wide as well? Really???No, they couldn't have it done easily. Gina Bruno commented on this, there was a link in this or a similar thread. It's difficult to create that system, so they are focusing on other things now - more content.
That excuse rigns hollow...
But if true, then it is another point against your idea. Because if it really was a lot of work, then it would be work ill spent, and better assigned to adding things rather then reworking a system in ways that would please only some and annoy some others
Uhm... you do realize that thw whole game is an artificial time sink?No, multi-character achievements are artificial time-sink. Players shouldn't be forced to play more than one character. There are players who are completionists and want to get every achievement. PvE vs PvP is fine because you only do it with one character. Not everyone likes playing alts - they create 1 toon who is their alter ego and they don't have more than one alter ego.
And there are people who say "players shouldn't be forced to PvP" or "players shouldn't be forced to run dungeons" as well.
Not everyone likes PvP. Not everyone likes dungeon runs.
Same difference.
But noone is forced to in either case - they can choose to, or can choose not to.
However, if there -was- an account wide achievement tab, "do it with the other classes as well" would be a classic "gamerscore" type achievement.
(and just so you know, while some people like doing it all with one, other people enjoy trying different things, seeing how they can do with something else. Different kinds of players...)
Only if it is "fixed" in a way that does not make it enjoyable for you and not for me.No, not to me only, that's why threads like that keep appearing. Do you really think it's the first one? We had those before the game was released.
Yes, if it's enjoyable for you and not enjoyable for me - then it HAS to be fixed. Because if it's fixed - you don't lose anything AND it will become enjoyable for me.
Since I am arguing against your championing the "make it all account wide" idea, it follows that the concept may not seem so enjoyable to me as the current status quo, yes?
And sure, you are not the only one for your camp. Just like I am not the only one for the one I argue for.
Actually... no.Facebook is not related to the game, I need to be able to have that "screenshot" in game, which is what accound-wide achievemnt/title would be. Other swords get "Dragonslayer's sword" titles. All of them. And that's what all the titles essentially are. "A character of a player who did X".
They are "A character with which a player did X" right now...
Just like Siegfried likely had a few swords, but the one he slain the dragon with was Balmung. Doesn't mean any of the other swords were "dragonslayer swords", they were just "Siegfrieds other swords", and when people talk about his dragonslaying, they certainly would not mention his other swords, but the one what actually was used for the dragonslaying.
And if some king visited, and wanted to see "the dragonslayers sword", they would feel mocked if you showed them the wooden toy sword he had wielded when he was a kid, even though it would -technically- be one of his swords as well - the request itself implies they want to see the sword they heard about in the legend.
Now... you may not care about that, and shamelessly show off your other swords, making such false claims as to their fame and not caring becausee you think its enough that they are owned by the one who did the deed.
I just disagree.
Uhm... all titles require the character, you know?If a title requires a character to be there - should be shared. If it requires the character - it shouldn't.
Just saying, merely because a title requires patience instead of skill, or just "being there", its no reason to have it shared between all your different characters. Want it? Be there with your other characters as well.
I mean, just like getting a book signed... if you grab your copy of "A Game of Thrones" and go to where G.R.R.Martin signs books, you can get it signed. It just required the book being there. But it doesn't mean all your other books in the series are now also signed - you have to take them there was well if you want that.
Your mind? I still disagree on that one...It does not exist.
Just because something is an image, or a line of code, does not mean it does not exist.They are just images.
Master Angler doesn't exist - it's a check mark in a database proving that A PLAYER clicked LMB multiple times and got all rare fish. A characted didn't do anything.
There's no fine and if there's - players get it, of course. Characters don't own anything. Gold is just another line in code showing what players have.
There is no gold - there's just a variable in database somewhere, which describes what player got.
Do characters have their banks? Do characters join guild? Do characters hop in TS while completing trials?
There's no such thing as a character as a subject. They don't do anything, don't get anything, don't unlock anything. The game just doesn't fully reflect it. It reflects it somewhere, but not everywhere yet.
A title too is just a line of code. A "virtually existing" thing.
It would make sense that the virtually existing characters are the ones to have the virtually existing titles, don't cha think?
And just because this game allows some account wide functions for player convineance does not mean that such is the only way. Other games are different, thus there are different ways to see this matter. As I keep saying... the game already allows more account wide then I am used to, but that is no reason to make it all account wide.
Wrong once again.Characters don't do anything. Players do. A title means - this character belongs to a player who did that and that. We just want it reflected in the game, but without breaking your immersion. So that you can still play your characters as characters, tracking their progress and whatnot, while we can just show off what WE DID.
A title means a player did that and that With This Character.
Now.
You just want it to mean "this character belongs to a player who did that and that"
I don't.
I prefer to show off what I did With That Character.
And I like to see what other players did With That Character of theirs.
Even if its just some "patience" title.
I have no problem with an account wide overview.They don't change for you, they don't change qualitatively. What you call an account overview is what we want. Achievements won't be unlocked on all characters. Some titles would be shared, dyes are already shared. So we have the precedent - achievement rewards can be shared. But I wouldn't be able to just use them.
Only with shared effort, and shared titles.
The way I see it, ZOS tried to find a balance between the "gamers" who want it all account wide, and the "roleplayers" who prefer it character specific.Because it was created keeping in mind that things are account-wide. They didn't pretend it's a world where characters live. The game breaks the 4th wall from the get-go. You see your @GameID in all your guilds etc. We don't want it easy. We want it consistent with the fact that players play the game, not the characters, the fact already admitted by zos through account-wide guilds etc.
You seem to want it all for the gamers, with no regard for others.
I would prefer it stay as it are, since the account wide side already has a lot, and is getting more with the final champion system phase...
They fail to convince. I understand your point of view just fine - I just disagree with your most basic assupmtion. And I was referring to multiple lines, not times.They never fail, some people just fail to understand. read what you quoted there again - it explains precisely what's happening there. Also "still" doesn't apply here, it's not a chat, the entire post was written at the same time, you only asked not to attack you later.
And yet... as outlined above... all of it is character specific in effect. The adress may on occasion refer to "you" to build immersion - but just like many things in the game use the adress "you", the content of their words clearly are meant for the character as a tool for immersion and not the gamer behind the screen.But character achievements aren't "THIS CAR". They are "YOU". I am not fraudulently claiming this. Just look - all the achievements address you as the 2nd person, not the character. Get killed by slaughter fish, become emperor, complete a dungeon, deconstruct 100 items etc. And when you complete them - they are unlocked, they don't say "this character got killed by slaughter fish". There's no mention of a character anywhere in the achievements. Or at least I didn't find one. You feel free to find it and point to it.
Ah, but it would be rude not to... unless we finally both agree to discontinue this discussion.Oh yeah, I keep doing that, you feel free to agree to disagree and move on. I never force you to reply.
Wrong.Yes, all this long paragraph just reiterates what I said many times - some titles are character-specific while others are not.
Stick can only have value because of the player. No stick won the champion. The title would say "stick used by a champion". Which is what we want in-game. But because that will ruin 'mersion, sharing some titles is better.
Sticks may only gain value because of the player, true.
That does not mean they cannot have value of their own after the player puts them down, nor that any stick the player picks up suddenly has the same value.
The "stick used by a champion" is not "stick used by a champion during that historic event" - the former can indeed be any stick, the latter is somewhat more specific. And yes, it may at some point be shortened to "event stick", because people are lazy, and don't want to say all those worlds to be technically exact all the time.
I see titled for characters -exactly- like what makes plain items into collectors items. Some are hard to get and require a test of skill (aka, the championship win). Others just require being there (aka, getting that book signature). Still doesn't mean that all your other plain items should suddenly become collectors items...Yes, but you wouldn't want an achievement saying "a character of a player who got %titlename". Collectors items are an exception. We're talking about the entire system. Where you would have exceptions too - character-specific things like no-death vma run.
If you finish it, yeah.No, it is a fact that the effort was spent. YOu can measure it, you can document it. Therefore it's a fact. Why were you offended by humanities major again? I mean you do "think" like one.
So why have this kind of *** in the game? Where it can easily be fixed? You still didn't reply to that. If you already had a document and lost it - they usually recover it for you or give you the same one later. If you graduate from school but then lose your diploma - it won't mean that you don't have your degree anymore. Even if the records are lost. YOu still went to school, studied etc - the effort was spent.
I was referring to the instances where you spend effort, but something happens before you cross the finish line that prevents you from completing the event. You wrote your document and failed to save it when the powerout shut down your computer (Yes, I know... these days all the decent programs have auto-save function). You put in all the effort, but have to leave the college before graduation.
You clear the dungeon, but loose connection for a hour just at the final boss.
Not all effort spent results in the expected reward.
That's life.
I still do not agree that all effort should be shared.
If you write your "Sorceror Song" it does not follow that your "Templar Tune" is now also written, right?
You know, I keep saying that as well, so I gota agree with you there - dumb grind is no fun.No one considers dumb grind fun. NO there are multiple precedents that I shouldn't spend effort on an alt separately. I can share all gear via bank, I can receive weekly rewards earned by main with alts.
But its not all dumb grind after all...
Or if it is, you may be doing it wrong.
And yes, we have covered already that the game gives a lot of account wide stuff. No reason for it to give even more though.
(as for the rewards - only because they come per mail, and last I got one, I still had to log in with the character eligable for them for the mail to be sent, even if I picked them up with another thanks to the account wide mail system they did for player convineance. Just saying, no reason to make it all account wide either)
Again, I have no problem with a system that showed account overview.Exactly that. So instead of having account achievements ONLY we only ask for something wow-like with shared dyes/titles (but only some titles and only if certain conditions met).
Its shared effort and shared titles I object to.
If the achievements are not account-wide, then effort would not be shared. That would be agreeable to me.
And some titles should never be shared, as even you agree... but in the spirit of "equal rights for all", that means no titles should be shared.
Dyes on the other hand are already shared, and thus would be just perfect for being tied to a account overview system.
(and there could be other unlocks in the future... I keep hoping that come barbershop, they might someday add achievement-specific unlocks, "criminal brands" or "prison tats" for those characters who have been bad and gotten justice achievements, or special adornments for those who complete questlines, etc)
...unless that was the rule of the game, yes?Yes, it's the rules of the game. And hockey players have to use hockey sticks and helmets etc.
If he plays half of the game with a stick and then replaces it with another one - it doesn't mean the game has to be restarted.
Which in some games, it is. An endurance ralley for example - wouldn't be much of an endurance test if the driver could just replace his car in the middle...
And seeing how in the game you can't just start a quest with one character, and complete it with a diffeerent character... well, I'd say this games rules do not agree with your notion...
No, you still do not speak for all of us creatures capable of reading and logical/critical thinking.Of course I don't speak for all of "you", I speak for all of "us", creatures capable of reading and logical/critical thinking. Isn't that what I said?
Despite your delusions that you do.
And your implied insult that anyone who dares disagree with you is incapable of those feats.
I grasp things all right.No, it's not because you disagree, it's because in many places in the comments you demonstrate the incapability to grasp very simple things. I'm very objective in this matter. I pointed out those few places, I didn't say anything when you were just disagreeing.
I just disagree with some of them.
It would be your ego that may lead you to think that anyone not convinced by your argument must be mentally defective. Or underage. Or trolling.
Or possibly some ploy to elecit an emotional response from me?
That kind of value judgement is your opinion. Stating it this way would be name calling.And yes, things can be ***. It's not name calling if they are and you call them what they are.
I have a different opinion. And generally try to express it without taking in my mouth what I would not like to take in my hand...3 -
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✭The_Sadist wrote: »
Thank you, even thought it's not quite what I was talking about (achievements won't be unlocked, you simply will have a new tab where you will see achievements combined), it does show that our humanities major is wrong. A lot of people support account-wide achievements. Actually, the majority of them.
Looking at my achievements journal (I am in game-right now) they are mostly in the passive voice (e.g. "Refine 3000 raw materials"). There are a few that address "you" but those seem to be tied to existing account-wide systems (e.g. "Spend your first Champion Point"). There are others that address the character in the third person (e.g. "Have a character apply a Legendary Enchantment that they created, to a piece of gear that they created). I am not sure that there is enough consistency across the system for anyone to be making the argument for or against account-wise achievements based on the language use in the Journal. Inconclusive.
It's not the passive voice. The passive voice would be "300 raw materials were refined". "Refine 300 raw materials" is the imperative mood (my bad, about 2nd person narrative, I translated it incorrectly). So yes, and the imperative mood address the reader in the second-person. And the reader is you, not the character. Sure, if there's an achievement that explicitly mentions the character - then it shows what the character has done. But most of them are in the imperative mood and therefore they tell YOU (a player) what to do.
No, not wrong. All of them are what? How many of them explicitly mention/address the character? The way it works now is not what many players want and inconsistent with the fact that the 4th wall is broken by addressing the player.TheShadowScout wrote: »Wrong again. All of them are. Now.
You just -want- that to change.
Doesn't mean it already has.
And just because it exists now - it doesn't mean it's good. It's not convenient, punishing a player for playing alts too much and we don't it to change.
It's like if your country had a law that every citizen should take a pole deep in the ass every day. Someone would say there's no good reason for that and it people don't deserve that treatment. And you would say "All of them do. Now. You just want it to change". Duhh, of course I want that to change.TheShadowScout wrote: »Wrong again.
They show what a player has done With That Character.
You just -want- them to show what a player has done.
I prefer them to stay as they are now.
You conceded the point for skill based achievements, and rightly so. I just say, it ought to be valid for all of them, even the ones that in your eyes "do not matter" like learning a crafting motiv or collecting an extraordonary amount of resources.
Only when they mention That Character. Most of them are in the imperative mood and tell the player what to do, not the character. No, it's dumb that you can't use titles that don't require skill.
And no, achievement itself won't be unlocked on every character. You'll just have a way to view all your unique achievements combined separately.
Because it is the same player. Your characters would still keep their individual achievements. Consider characters player's avatars. They are nothing. They are just something a player uses to do his will.TheShadowScout wrote: »Effort is spent for something. Want a second something? Spend the effort again.
That is the basic idea I am trying to convey.
But at its core, the disagreement is truly between player-specific vs. character-specific.
Because I see different characters as "different", and you see same player as "same"
And I have no idea why you keep saying that. Only one achievement I found mentions That Character. Yes, right now they work so that they show what has been done on a character only, which is why this thread was created. Its' dumb and there's no good reason for that. It's obvious that a player does the achievements, they even address the player.
If you paint your car, you can paint it again. It's still not related to titles or achievements. It's the physical change of appearance, nothing more. The title is a cup that you get by winning a race on that car. Does a car take that cup home or a driver? Does a car or a driver own that cup?
You are talking about real life and real objects. IF in real life there would be a way to spend less effort - I bet dollars to donuts it would be implemented. Just look at microelectronics. They make multiple transistors/microschemes on one wafer as opposed to making each one individually like long time ago. Now you just print all of them at once by spending effort on all of them once. If this was possible with TVs - it would be happening. Now, this is possible with the achievements in games like WoW demonstrated - therefore there's no reason not to implement it.
Of course it shows what was done by a person. Who else has done it? A character? please, he can't do anything without a person. It's only important that it was a certain character if it required you to master how to play that particular character. If it didn't require any of that - then it doesn't matter which character was used, they are interchangeable in most achievements.TheShadowScout wrote: »And I keep saying, they don't show what was done by a person - they show what was done by a person With That Character.
And in the spirit of this metaphor, "applying a costume" would be more like adding a seat cover to your car, since its removable. A painting done by some airbrush artist - not so much. And if you scrap your painted car, its lost - it won't copy over to your other car. So why should archievements?
And I don't know why you keep saying that. Painting a car also doesn't show what was done by a car. If you applied a costume to your char it won't copy to your other char. Achievements aren't similar to painting. Painting just changes the looks. Achievements show what a player has done - that is why they should be acknowledged as player's achievements. A character is just a tool and in most cases - interchangeable. Those titles must copy. Oh, and yeah, it's the titles that copy, not achievements. You just get achievements for your account.TheShadowScout wrote: »Because it is still a lie.
If they -can- achieve it, they should go out and do it.
Not go like "oh, sure, I could if I really wanted to, but I just am too lazy, so give it to me anyways"
It does not matter if it's a lie or not if it doesn't change anything.
They did go out and did it. With another character. And if it didn't matter which one was used - the title should be shared.
No one will give anything to someone who didn't do it. Vice versa, it's making sure that a player gets rewarded for his effort, because he's the one who spent that effort, not the character.
yes, some "titles" are specific to thingies others aren't. And the thing is, that capes etc aren't tools, like characters or hockey sticks. They are decorations and costumes like... well, costumes.TheShadowScout wrote: »No, I am saying, even if an archievement just required "being there" (like the cape in a movie shooting, or a stick in a championship match - though I suppose that example was not the best one, chalk it up to my nerdyness which kinda excludes sporty knowledge), it still makes it specific to the thingie (cape, stick, character, whatever) that was the one there at the event (movie shooting, championship match, archievement), and not to all the other thingies the person who was there using the thing at the time may have owned.
Apologies if that was unclear. It is not the example, it is the pattern beneath.
It doesn't matter how you or me or someone else sees them. I'm being objective. It's a player who earns the title, not a character. So it title belongs to a player, just like a character or any of his gear (which can already be shared between toons).TheShadowScout wrote: »No, that is what you see titles as.
I see them differently.
Player-specific vs. character-specific point of view.
But I say again, if you claim to sell a thingie with a "did that was used at this event" title, and then deliver some other thingie the person who used the original thingie happened to own... then you are guilty of fraud. Doesn't matter of it was a baseball bat, or a soccer ball, or whatever.
Yeah there's a huge difference. In case of baseball bat someone pays money to have the right one but gets the wrong one. In case of characters - you are losing nothing. You see a player's avatar and that player DID earn this achievement. Same with crafting etc. They talk to you when you are on one of your character, then you switch and craft while on another character. Is that fraud somehow? Character are you in game.Basically your avatar.For many players it is so. Just click the link posted above.
Debunked by who and where? It's the imperative mood and it's addressing you.TheShadowScout wrote: »Statement debunked by others.
No need to add to that.
Not that I was talking about the rethoric form... but the underlying mechanic instead. I keep saying, the game does only show what players complete With That Specific Character right now.
You want it to change.
And you keep trying to state your point of view as absolute truth. I mean, I get it, it is a rethoric ploy to get people to agree with you - repeat a statement often enough, and hope it seeps in, politicians do it all the time. And yes, it works on the average person. Doesn't mean it works on everyone, nor that people might not recognize the trick.
The game shows what was completed with a character for no good reason. It is designed as account-wide. That's just one more *** way of forcing players to waste time to make up for the lack of content. IT's a time sink. Just like RNG. Do you also support RNG? Good luck with those master weapons and icp sets.TheShadowScout wrote: »No, it doesn't.
And you still try to convey your opinion as fact.
The achievements still show what a player completed With That Character.
If you find a skyshard, you find it With That Character.
If you learn a motiv, you learn it With That Character.
If you find a trophy, you find it With That Character.
As for the journal... what do the other tabs of the journal show? They show stuff like which quests That Character has currently active. They show what books That Character has already found. They show where That Character is in cadwells silver/gold.
So much for your "player this, player that" argument...
Nope, it's in imperative mood. It tells YOU what to do. It addresses you. A character is just a tool and of course it shows that, because you're online with it. You found skyshards and books, though. Not a character. A character doesn't do anything. How come you don't get something so simple? He's a player's avatar at best. And it doesn't matter which avatar Odin would use to come to the mortal world - he's still Odin and still has all Odin's titles. And no matter that Zeus would use an avatar to come to Earth and even sleep with women. Heracles was still his son, not his avatar's son. Perseus was halfhuman halfgod, not half-golden-rain!TheShadowScout wrote: »Shared between characters, duh.
And sure running story always contributes. But with many achievements, you gotta put in extra effort to get there. Running stories mutiple times would lessen that extra effort, thus cheapening the achievement. Which may please the "everyone's a winner" crowd... but not those who actually spent the extra effort, who enjoy striving towards something that isn't handed to them on a sliver platter - and not just in terms of skill, but also in terms of persistance.
What's shared between characters? you were talking about effort, characters don't spend any effort, it's the player who does.
How would running stories lessen effort? If you run a story more than once - it's already extra effort. You repeat something you have already done. It's grind just like any other grind. Moreover - it's inefficient grind compared to sewers or wrothgar public dungeons. So it doesn't lessen effort and cheapens anything - it actually punishes a player so he has to do boring stuff.TheShadowScout wrote: »Uhm... you do realize that thw whole game is an artificial time sink?
And there are people who say "players shouldn't be forced to PvP" or "players shouldn't be forced to run dungeons" as well.
Not everyone likes PvP. Not everyone likes dungeon runs.
Same difference.
But noone is forced to in either case - they can choose to, or can choose not to.
However, if there -was- an account wide achievement tab, "do it with the other classes as well" would be a classic "gamerscore" type achievement.
(and just so you know, while some people like doing it all with one, other people enjoy trying different things, seeing how they can do with something else. Different kinds of players...)
No, that's a BS argument. Even if it's a time sink, people want to play and spend that time having fun, not just for the sake of wasting time. Yes people can enjoy playing different characters, but the current system prevents many players from doing that. Because if they start playing another character they won't be progressing as players until they reach their old achievement score.TheShadowScout wrote: »Only if it is "fixed" in a way that does not make it enjoyable for you and not for me.
Since I am arguing against your championing the "make it all account wide" idea, it follows that the concept may not seem so enjoyable to me as the current status quo, yes?
And sure, you are not the only one for your camp. Just like I am not the only one for the one I argue for.
What are you talking about? Nothing will change for you. Or is it not enjoyable for you to know that others will enjoy it more? And yes, camps are big. And according to most similar threads - more players would like more of a wow-like system. For example, the link posted above has a poll.TheShadowScout wrote: »Actually... no.
They are "A character with which a player did X" right now...
Just like Siegfried likely had a few swords, but the one he slain the dragon with was Balmung. Doesn't mean any of the other swords were "dragonslayer swords", they were just "Siegfrieds other swords", and when people talk about his dragonslaying, they certainly would not mention his other swords, but the one what actually was used for the dragonslaying.
And if some king visited, and wanted to see "the dragonslayers sword", they would feel mocked if you showed them the wooden toy sword he had wielded when he was a kid, even though it would -technically- be one of his swords as well - the request itself implies they want to see the sword they heard about in the legend.
Now... you may not care about that, and shamelessly show off your other swords, making such false claims as to their fame and not caring becausee you think its enough that they are owned by the one who did the deed.
I just disagree.
No they are not. They work like for no good reason, but they don't say that. Read them, they all address a player in the imperative mood. Only a few might mention a character (I only know of one).
Nah, did he slay a dragon? He did. So he's a dragonslayer. So his name can be replaced by that. So "Siegfrid's other swords" are actually "Dragonslayer's other swords". Because HE is the one who's slain a dragon = dragonslayer.
If you want to see A dragonslayer's sword - then any sword he wielded works. If you wanna see Balmung - that's the whole different story. Once again, you're mixing character-specific titles with the rest. Don't.TheShadowScout wrote: »Uhm... all titles require the character, you know?
Just saying, merely because a title requires patience instead of skill, or just "being there", its no reason to have it shared between all your different characters. Want it? Be there with your other characters as well.
I mean, just like getting a book signed... if you grab your copy of "A Game of Thrones" and go to where G.R.R.Martin signs books, you can get it signed. It just required the book being there. But it doesn't mean all your other books in the series are now also signed - you have to take them there was well if you want that.
No, read again. Some titles require A character to get, others require THE character. I used different articles, indefinite and definite.The key point is that some of them do not require to know how to play any certain class, while others do. The former ones obviously should be shared, while the latter - shouldn't.
Yes, if a title requires patience than its' completely and 100% depends on a player only, not which character he played.
Again, that's not an analogy, that's just demagogy. How is a signature here similar to an achievement and how is a book in this context similar to a character? The only way it makes sense is if you understand that it did require THAT SPECIFIC book to be there to get that signature. Once again, titles like flawless conqueror require skill and yes completing it with 1 class doesn't mean you can do it with another class. But grind is not like that. It doesn't require the character to be there, it doesn't require THE book to be there. Any character can be there. It's THE PLAYER who spends effort and does work. A character is just one more link in the chain between a player and the result. It's like when you click a mouse button it clicks one more button. Now if you replace a button or entire mouse - you wouldn't lose the achievement. They why should you, if you replace the "second button"?TheShadowScout wrote: »Just because something is an image, or a line of code, does not mean it does not exist.
A title too is just a line of code. A "virtually existing" thing.
It would make sense that the virtually existing characters are the ones to have the virtually existing titles, don't cha think?
And just because this game allows some account wide functions for player convineance does not mean that such is the only way. Other games are different, thus there are different ways to see this matter. As I keep saying... the game already allows more account wide then I am used to, but that is no reason to make it all account wide.
It absolutely does in this context. Do lines of code spend effort and get achievements? They are just line of codes.
Once again: Do characters or players hop in TS while completing trials, discuss strategies, maximize their hps/dps and spend effort working towards completing achievements? Players spend effort, not characters.TheShadowScout wrote: »Wrong once again.
A title means a player did that and that With This Character.
Now.
You just want it to mean "this character belongs to a player who did that and that"
I don't.
I prefer to show off what I did With That Character.
And I like to see what other players did With That Character of theirs.
Even if its just some "patience" title.
I have no problem with an account wide overview.
Only with shared effort, and shared titles..
Wrong indeed. A title means a player has done it. Read any achievement that gives a title - they all address the player in the imperative mood, not the character. Effort won't be shared. It's only the player who spends it, and he still will be the one playing his characters and spending all his effort. Titles obviously should be shared for achievements where players put all the effort and this effort doesn't depend on a character class/level much.
But to be honest, why did you start that paragraph immediately by spoilering that you're gonna be wrong once again? Let us read it first and see it ourselves.
"Others" won't lose anything. They will still see individual achievements of each character and they still won't be forced to use titles earned with other characters. So there's regard for others.TheShadowScout wrote: »The way I see it, ZOS tried to find a balance between the "gamers" who want it all account wide, and the "roleplayers" who prefer it character specific.
You seem to want it all for the gamers, with no regard for others.
I would prefer it stay as it are, since the account wide side already has a lot, and is getting more with the final champion system phase...TheShadowScout wrote: »And yet... as outlined above... all of it is character specific in effect. The adress may on occasion refer to "you" to build immersion - but just like many things in the game use the adress "you", the content of their words clearly are meant for the character as a tool for immersion and not the gamer behind the screen.
Duh, they are like that in effect for no good reason, that's why we create and will keep creating these threads. Obviously, it's for the gamer behind the screen, if he's not there to read - who's gonna read it? A character?TheShadowScout wrote: »Wrong.
Sticks may only gain value because of the player, true.
That does not mean they cannot have value of their own after the player puts them down, nor that any stick the player picks up suddenly has the same value.
The "stick used by a champion" is not "stick used by a champion during that historic event" - the former can indeed be any stick, the latter is somewhat more specific. And yes, it may at some point be shortened to "event stick", because people are lazy, and don't want to say all those worlds to be technically exact all the time.
I know what's gonna follow is wrong, I got the pattern already,but you really don't have to announce it.
So yes, whenever it might be any stick in the context of the title - then the title must be shared, for specific sticks - no.
They aren't similar though. Characters and special and aren't collectors items in terms of achievements. Everyone has the same achievements. And the book example is not about being there - it's about being there with the specific book. No, all my other items become items of a collector who got blahblah, but because such title wouldnt' look good in game it should be reduced.TheShadowScout wrote: »I see titled for characters -exactly- like what makes plain items into collectors items. Some are hard to get and require a test of skill (aka, the championship win). Others just require being there (aka, getting that book signature). Still doesn't mean that all your other plain items should suddenly become collectors items...TheShadowScout wrote: »If you finish it, yeah.
I was referring to the instances where you spend effort, but something happens before you cross the finish line that prevents you from completing the event. You wrote your document and failed to save it when the powerout shut down your computer (Yes, I know... these days all the decent programs have auto-save function). You put in all the effort, but have to leave the college before graduation.
You clear the dungeon, but loose connection for a hour just at the final boss.
Not all effort spent results in the expected reward.
That's life.
I still do not agree that all effort should be shared.
If you write your "Sorceror Song" it does not follow that your "Templar Tune" is now also written, right?
Ok yeah. So? If you finished the achievement - you should get credit for your effort. And even if you character gets deleted - the effort was spent by you, so the title should stay.
Something happens... Hm if only there was a way to fix that somehow? Oh wait, it's a computer game...
How's is real-world argument even relevant here? Most people who want to deal with real-world BS do not play games. There's absolutely no reason to use "that's life" as an excuse not to deliver convenience to many players. It's a game, we run here to be away from real life.
I agree that it shouldnt' be shared. I never said it should. It's still gonna be a player(who owns an account) who will still spend 100% effort. No one else will do it or share it.
How am I doing it wrong? There's absolutely nothing fun in fishing or grinding for trophies or whatever. And yes there's a reason to make it account-wide -- convenience would be one. A lot of players would prefer it(while others would still keep all the functions there are now) - would be another one.TheShadowScout wrote: »You know, I keep saying that as well, so I gota agree with you there - dumb grind is no fun.
But its not all dumb grind after all...
Or if it is, you may be doing it wrong.
And yes, we have covered already that the game gives a lot of account wide stuff. No reason for it to give even more though.
(as for the rewards - only because they come per mail, and last I got one, I still had to log in with the character eligable for them for the mail to be sent, even if I picked them up with another thanks to the account wide mail system they did for player convineance. Just saying, no reason to make it all account wide either)
The effort would not be shared. It would still be only one player contributing to the achievements. The spirit of "equal rights for all" can also means that all titles should be shared. And many players value their convenience over some dumb limitations. That's why they are getting nameplates, for example, - they don't care about immersion or whatever.TheShadowScout wrote: »Again, I have no problem with a system that showed account overview.
Its shared effort and shared titles I object to.
If the achievements are not account-wide, then effort would not be shared. That would be agreeable to me.
And some titles should never be shared, as even you agree... but in the spirit of "equal rights for all", that means no titles should be shared.
Dyes on the other hand are already shared, and thus would be just perfect for being tied to a account overview system.
(and there could be other unlocks in the future... I keep hoping that come barbershop, they might someday add achievement-specific unlocks, "criminal brands" or "prison tats" for those characters who have been bad and gotten justice achievements, or special adornments for those who complete questlines, etc)
Awesome idea about unlocking tats, hairstyles etc. with the achievements! Props.
Yes it would be an endurance test - it's the driver who has to drive and put effort. It also wouldn't change much, because all other drivers would be allowed to replace their cars, too.TheShadowScout wrote: »...unless that was the rule of the game, yes?
Which in some games, it is. An endurance ralley for example - wouldn't be much of an endurance test if the driver could just replace his car in the middle...
And seeing how in the game you can't just start a quest with one character, and complete it with a diffeerent character... well, I'd say this games rules do not agree with your notion...
It's not an insult. I wouldn't be insulted if they called me blonde,if I am.TheShadowScout wrote: »No, you still do not speak for all of us creatures capable of reading and logical/critical thinking.
Despite your delusions that you do.
And your implied insult that anyone who dares disagree with you is incapable of those feats.
Not at all right. I pointed it out a few times. You kept confusing car-specific and non car-specific achievements. It's ok, it takes longer for some people.TheShadowScout wrote: »I grasp things all right.
I just disagree with some of them.
It would be your ego that may lead you to think that anyone not convinced by your argument must be mentally defective. Or underage. Or trolling.
Or possibly some ploy to elecit an emotional response from me?
Ah I see, you're one of that political correct crowd. No, stating the facts wouldn't be name calling, no matter how much it can offend someone.TheShadowScout wrote: »That kind of value judgement is your opinion. Stating it this way would be name calling.
I have a different opinion. And generally try to express it without taking in my mouth what I would not like to take in my hand...
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Actually that is not quite true. If a in-game book adresses the "reader", it would adress your character, since it is in-character information.It's not the passive voice. The passive voice would be "300 raw materials were refined". "Refine 300 raw materials" is the imperative mood (my bad, about 2nd person narrative, I translated it incorrectly). So yes, and the imperative mood address the reader in the second-person. And the reader is you, not the character. Sure, if there's an achievement that explicitly mentions the character - then it shows what the character has done. But most of them are in the imperative mood and therefore they tell YOU (a player) what to do.
The journal... is somewhat out-of-character in design, but that does not neccessarily mean it adresses "the player". And since the effect definitely does not... one could surmise that it adressed the combination of player and character... after all, as I mentioned times and times before, the player is not the one who learns a crafting motiv, the player is the one who clicks their mouse to make their character in the game world learn a crafting motiv. Et cetera.
They are character specific in effect right now. That's the way the developers made them in ESO. That's the way they are in all the othe few MMOs I ever played. Quite possibly there are some MMOs where they aren't.No, not wrong. All of them are what? How many of them explicitly mention/address the character? The way it works now is not what many players want and inconsistent with the fact that the 4th wall is broken by addressing the player.
But, no matter how much you talk, no matter how often you state the opposite, that does not change the fact that they Are Not Player Specific - now.
You want it to change.
That is your desire.
Doesn't mean they have already changed.
Doesn't mean that your opinion about them becomes fact.
And it is the way many other players want it to be... and the wording does not really adress who the imperative is aimed at, the fictuional person of the character, or the real parson of the player. And seeing how the effect is counted for the character...
True, just because something is the way it is now does not mean it is good.And just because it exists now - it doesn't mean it's good. It's not convenient, punishing a player for playing alts too much and we don't it to change.
But it also does not mean that if some people want it to be different, that the way something is must be bad.
When everyone agrees its bad, it ought to be changed.
But not everyone agrees with your point of view here...
And personally I like it, as from my point of view it -encourages- people to play alts. Having everything account-wide like you dream about would feel discouraging for me - some people are like that, you know, roleplayers who actually enjoy doing the same things with different characters as a way to pass the time between DLCs.
I say again, the core of our disagreement is an "opposing point of view" sort of thing...
No, I happen to think its not dumb that you can't use titles without doing the work for them on each character you want to use them. Be it a title gained by skill, luck, or patience. I would think it dumb if you could use a title you earned on your main on an alt, even if it required no skill, merely luck or lots of patience.Only when they mention That Character. Most of them are in the imperative mood and tell the player what to do, not the character. No, it's dumb that you can't use titles that don't require skill.
And no, achievement itself won't be unlocked on every character. You'll just have a way to view all your unique achievements combined separately.
We shall keep disagreeing on this I wager...
Okay. False. True.Because it is the same player. Your characters would still keep their individual achievements. Consider characters player's avatars. They are nothing. They are just something a player uses to do his will.
Characters are player avatars. Yet they are not nothing. They are something a player uses to do his will, but they are also more... if they were not, then they were all the same. There are games like that, where every "sniper" is just like any other "sniper", and the game characters matter not in the slightest. But as soon as you can have your own name for characters, and choose your own appereance, a funny little thing happens - some people start to think of their personalized characters as roles to play, instead of "nothing" as you seem to do. And once a character is a role to play for a player, it becomes important for those people to have immersion and consistency. And that includes character-specific titles and achievements.
And I keep saying, the title or achievement is not the "prize" you take home. Its more like the control stamp that this character passed that inspection point. Guided by that player, of course, but still only This character, not All characters. Just like your -character- gains the Pact Hero title for completing that storyline, and then the others for doing the other alliance storylines through cadwells. Checkpoint passed, title gained. A different character would have no claim at all to those titles unless and until that character also passed this or that checkpoint. Because following the effect, the titles are for -characters- not a gamerscore for players. Makes perfect sense to me.And I have no idea why you keep saying that. Only one achievement I found mentions That Character. Yes, right now they work so that they show what has been done on a character only, which is why this thread was created. Its' dumb and there's no good reason for that. It's obvious that a player does the achievements, they even address the player.
If you paint your car, you can paint it again. It's still not related to titles or achievements. It's the physical change of appearance, nothing more. The title is a cup that you get by winning a race on that car. Does a car take that cup home or a driver? Does a car or a driver own that cup?
I keep saying, there are reasons not to implement changes to the deteriment of those who like character-specific differences.You are talking about real life and real objects. IF in real life there would be a way to spend less effort - I bet dollars to donuts it would be implemented. Just look at microelectronics. They make multiple transistors/microschemes on one wafer as opposed to making each one individually like long time ago. Now you just print all of them at once by spending effort on all of them once. If this was possible with TVs - it would be happening. Now, this is possible with the achievements in games like WoW demonstrated - therefore there's no reason not to implement it.
And I keep suggesting, that instead of changing things, there might be an argument to be made for -adding- something so the people who like to see their account "progress" could do so, without changing the current system.
As for less effort... true for manufactoring processes.
But is it true for other things?
School, for example? I mean, maybe there are some schools who give out passing grades because a student once three years ago managed to pass a test, even if they have not appeared to any test ever since. it certainly would explain some things I keep hearing about those "average americans" in rumours and such where one can never be quite sure if it's merely a cruel jest, or has some core of truth... but I grew up with a system where you had to spend the effort every year to pass.
Seeing how the person can also not achieve anything in the game without a character, this point is somewhat falling short of convincing...Of course it shows what was done by a person. Who else has done it? A character? please, he can't do anything without a person.
It can be seen that way. And yet, that does not mean that the things you did with that character ought to copy over to the other characters as well. Just change characters, and do them again if youi really want to show off a certain title on a different character. Or decide it not worth it, and leave the other character without that extra special title. I know I do both of those...It's only important that it was a certain character if it required you to master how to play that particular character. If it didn't require any of that - then it doesn't matter which character was used, they are interchangeable in most achievements.
A control stamp that this car passed that checkpoint does not carry over. And that is how I see achievements. You can keep seeing them as acknoledgement of the things the player did. I will keep disagreeing.And I don't know why you keep saying that. Painting a car also doesn't show what was done by a car. If you applied a costume to your char it won't copy to your other char. Achievements aren't similar to painting. Painting just changes the looks. Achievements show what a player has done - that is why they should be acknowledged as player's achievements. A character is just a tool and in most cases - interchangeable. Those titles must copy. Oh, and yeah, it's the titles that copy, not achievements. You just get achievements for your account.
And I keep saying, either all titles copy, or none should, and since many titles do depend on the character, none should.
And you still only get achievements for your character, and NOT for your account. No matter how often you state it.
I disagree. Truth is important to me.It does not matter if it's a lie or not if it doesn't change anything.
If the player did it with another character, the title is on another character. Just like when the player got that nifty weapon - on one character. Just when the player got that last skyshard - on one character. just when the player got emperor - on one character.They did go out and did it. With another character. And if it didn't matter which one was used - the title should be shared.
But the player does get rewarded for their effort.No one will give anything to someone who didn't do it. Vice versa, it's making sure that a player gets rewarded for his effort, because he's the one who spent that effort, not the character.
They earned the title - on one character.
But they did not on the other characters.
If the title is importrant to them, they can pick and choose which character to earn it with.
If they want it on more then one character, they can choose to play some more.
The "effort to earn" for the titles was obviously balanced for earning them on one character. So why should it suddenly buy the title for all characters?
So you say, any cape Bela Lugosi owned can be sold as "The Cape From The First Dracula Movie"? Because, according to your "logic" after all, it was the actor who was in the movie, and he owned the cape, so its all right???yes, some "titles" are specific to thingies others aren't. And the thing is, that capes etc aren't tools, like characters or hockey sticks. They are decorations and costumes like... well, costumes.
I am pretty sure if you tried something like that, a judge might disagree with your "logic". Even though that cape was only special by having happened to be the one that "was there" at the time...
No, you are not - you keep making that claim, yet you still argue subjective from your point of view.It doesn't matter how you or me or someone else sees them. I'm being objective.
The player earns the in-game-pretend-title with their in-game-pretend-character. The title is NOT displayed for the player, it is displayed for the character. You have no titles at all until you select a character, and then you only have those titles you have earned For This Character.It's a player who earns the title, not a character.
You want this to change. That does not make it already changed.
The title only exists in the game world. The character only exists in the game world. The player only exists in the real world. So their "ownership" of the title can only exist through their character. Thus the title must be character specific.So it title belongs to a player, just like a character or any of his gear (which can already be shared between toons).
Like any other character, really.
When actor Hayden Christensen played character Anakin Skywalker "earning" the title of "Jedi Knight" at the end of the second prequel, who did the title "belong" to?
When actor Viggo Mortensen played character Aragorn "earning" the title of "King of Gondor" in the third part, who did the title "belong" to?
So why should a player suddenly claim ownership to a "Pact Hero" (or any other) in-game title on a personal basis?
Fu... uhm... forget RNG. I hate that mechanic. But I just do without the master weapons and go with other stuff...The game shows what was completed with a character for no good reason. It is designed as account-wide. That's just one more *** way of forcing players to waste time to make up for the lack of content. IT's a time sink. Just like RNG. Do you also support RNG? Good luck with those master weapons and icp sets.
But in case you have not noticed - the whole game is a time sink. That is its purpose. To allow people to waste some time in a way that distracts them from the dreary reality.
So you keep saying, you want it changed to it requires people to waste less time...
...which would be entirely contrary to its basic purpose.
So you keep saying, you want it changed to cater to the people who want more for less...
...who are usually exactly those people who pay the least for the game.
So you keep saying you want it changed to be more fun for those unwilling to spend extra effort...
...to the detriment of those who are willing to spend eftra effort, and yes, also extra money?
Somehow I fail to see where the benefit for ZOS should be in your idea...
You did not find any shyshards - you found these skyshards With Your Character.Nope, it's in imperative mood. It tells YOU what to do. It addresses you. A character is just a tool and of course it shows that, because you're online with it. You found skyshards and books, though. Not a character. A character doesn't do anything. How come you don't get something so simple? He's a player's avatar at best. And it doesn't matter which avatar Odin would use to come to the mortal world - he's still Odin and still has all Odin's titles. And no matter that Zeus would use an avatar to come to Earth and even sleep with women. Heracles was still his son, not his avatar's son. Perseus was halfhuman halfgod, not half-golden-rain!
You did not find any books - you found those With Your character.
A player cannot do ANYTHING in the game world - except through their character.
Yes, the character is a player avatar. But within the context of the story, each character is their own individual person, and not merely facets of some higher beaing. And since the titles also exist only within the context of the story, it just makes no sense at all to have them specific to the player, and all sense to have them specific to the character.
And actually, the legends were older then the concept of Avatar and Diety being different - they usually all go like "Zeus came in the form or a golden shower", or "Zeus came in the form of a white swan"... not mentioning if Zeus was playing an avatar, or was just shapeshifting very impressively. (Leaving aside how it might just as well have been a case of being doped up on incense and trying to put half-remembered glimpses into a story which then grew in the telling...) Not that it matters much in this regard...
True. Player spend effort.What's shared between characters? you were talking about effort, characters don't spend any effort, it's the player who does.
Shared between characters.
Just like any other effort... its a difference if you paint one picture, or if you spend the same time painting half of two pictures. You keep saying, if you paint one picture, that effort should copy over to all the different pictures you also started.
No, it -requires- the player to do boring stuff -if- he wants a certain achievement for that character.How would running stories lessen effort? If you run a story more than once - it's already extra effort. You repeat something you have already done. It's grind just like any other grind. Moreover - it's inefficient grind compared to sewers or wrothgar public dungeons. So it doesn't lessen effort and cheapens anything - it actually punishes a player so he has to do boring stuff.
THAT is why some achievements are something to subtly brag about - "look, see, I spent the extra effort, I went the extra mile!"
That stated, I would agree that for some achievements, the effort seems a bit... much. Especially the extra boring ones... like trophy hunting, master angling, or dolmen general farming. On the other hand... that makes then extra special.
And I would gladly discuss ways to make them a bit less annoying - but sharing them across all characters is not the way I would like to see, nor agree with.
Technically, it can easily be seen as "waste of time". I know, many people tell me so now and then.No, that's a BS argument. Even if it's a time sink, people want to play and spend that time having fun, not just for the sake of wasting time. Yes people can enjoy playing different characters, but the current system prevents many players from doing that. Because if they start playing another character they won't be progressing as players until they reach their old achievement score.
But you are right, people play this to have fun... or at least, to forget how little fun they often have in their real life.
And the developers want to have a balance between "time spent" and "fun had" - if they gave people all the fun right away, the people would not have anything to do, and leave for another game on short notice. Thus they have lots of different things to achieve, with widely varying effort needed.
And actually I for one would think your proposed account-wide system would prevent More people from playing alts. After all, if all counted from your main already, why even bother with alts overly much anyhow? Why spend any extra effort on them?
Of course, the "make it ALL character specific" would also have a negative effect on alting enjoyment... when you would have to spend -too- much time to get all your alts to a certain level so you could do certain things (aka, endgame stuff) with them. And there the developers wisely made some account wide benefits that even roleplayers like me can appreciate...
That however is a non-issue for achievements, since they do not DO anything. (well excalt unlocking dyes, which are already account wide, and titles, which again have no game effect of their own). Achievement are merely checkpoints what this or that character has done, and has yet to do.
And in the end, the game gets to be good by finding a viable balance between account wide, and character specificness. And I say ESO is already giving a LOT account wide, so there is no need to shift the balance even further.
I do not doubt that more players would like a WOW-ish system. Promises of free stuff always draws masses. Especially masses unwilling to spend effort, or money...What are you talking about? Nothing will change for you. Or is it not enjoyable for you to know that others will enjoy it more? And yes, camps are big. And according to most similar threads - more players would like more of a wow-like system. For example, the link posted above has a poll.
Would it be a good business practice though? Or would it lead to the very same people breezing through the game in record time and leaving for the next thing just as quickly?
You seem to strive hard to not get it, don'tcha?Nah, did he slay a dragon? He did. So he's a dragonslayer. So his name can be replaced by that. So "Siegfrid's other swords" are actually "Dragonslayer's other swords". Because HE is the one who's slain a dragon = dragonslayer.
If you want to see A dragonslayer's sword - then any sword he wielded works. If you wanna see Balmung - that's the whole different story. Once again, you're mixing character-specific titles with the rest. Don't.
Noone cares about sigfriends wooden toy sword.
They only care about the sword used in the dragonslaying.
If you show them the wooden toy sword when they ask about the "dragonalsyers sword", they'll punch youi in the face and demand their money back, or whatever else is cultutally appropriate. No matter how much you talk about "but... it really is one of the dragonslayers other swords". This is the reasoning of a con man. Not a good thing to use when you are traing to make a good argument... unless you are hoping to only convince a couple of fools and skip town the next day...
All titles are gotten by the character. For some, it makes a difference which character the character is, for others its merely the players choice which character they use. Still does not mean that the title is not specific to the character it was gotten with...No, read again. Some titles require A character to get, others require THE character.
That is your opinion. Mine differs. But we established that already...The key point is that some of them do not require to know how to play any certain class, while others do. The former ones obviously should be shared, while the latter - shouldn't.
So... are all of your books signed just because you carried one to the signing?Again, that's not an analogy, that's just demagogy. How is a signature here similar to an achievement and how is a book in this context similar to a character? The only way it makes sense is if you understand that it did require THAT SPECIFIC book to be there to get that signature. Once again, titles like flawless conqueror require skill and yes completing it with 1 class doesn't mean you can do it with another class. But grind is not like that. It doesn't require the character to be there, it doesn't require THE book to be there. Any character can be there. It's THE PLAYER who spends effort and does work. A character is just one more link in the chain between a player and the result. It's like when you click a mouse button it clicks one more button. Now if you replace a button or entire mouse - you wouldn't lose the achievement. They why should you, if you replace the "second button"?
I am saying, even if it did not require that specific book to get the signature, you still only get the signature on the book that was there. Same with titles. Want two books signed? Take two books there. And since you can only drive one character at a time... you'd have to go twice.
But players spend effort On Their Characters. That improves their characters, with useful stuff like levels, or gear, and decorative stuff like titles. And the achievements are still just checkpoints. So you can see how much of your effort you spend on this or on that character. And titles are just makrs for noteworthy checkpoints, so you can show them off - "Look y'all! See how much effort I spent on this character!" Some are skill effort, some different kinds of effort. But they still only exist in the game world, and thus still only should be paired with the characters you used when spending the effort - in my opinion. Yours differs. We will not agree on this.It absolutely does in this context. Do lines of code spend effort and get achievements? They are just line of codes.
Once again: Do characters or players hop in TS while completing trials, discuss strategies, maximize their hps/dps and spend effort working towards completing achievements? Players spend effort, not characters.
Wrong again. That is what it may mean in WoW. But that is not what it means in ESO. Or in the half dozend or so other MMORPGS I played. So just beause it means that in WoW and in your head, does not make it universal truth. Repeating your opinion also does not make it any more true, you know...Wrong indeed. A title means a player has done it.
If you really think that, then I can only surmise you failed your english classes. Since that does not seem to be the case, I have to conclude you are trying to be witty... and are only half successful.I know what's gonna follow is wrong, I got the pattern already,but you really don't have to announce it.
And I keep saying, the moment you spend the effort to earn a title for one of the any sticks, it becomes specific to that stick, because that's the stick that was there. No matter if you could have used any stick, or if it had to be that stick. The moment it is used for the event, it becomes specific, and your other sticks that "could have also been used" don't automatically gain the title. There are no titles for "could have been".So yes, whenever it might be any stick in the context of the title - then the title must be shared, for specific sticks - no.
That again is a faulty assumption, based on the premise that the titles are player specific, when they are character specific.Ok yeah. So? If you finished the achievement - you should get credit for your effort. And even if you character gets deleted - the effort was spent by you, so the title should stay.
To puit it quite simple... if you have a V16 that finishes a perfect Dragonstar run, and delete that one, why should the title stay for your newly rerolled level 1 toon?
And yes, you conceded the point for skill-based achievements.
So you maybe should have excepmted that in your above statement...
I am just adding, equal rules for all achievements. If the skill based effort can be lost that way, then all effort must follow the same rules.
I cannot disagree with this.How's is real-world argument even relevant here? Most people who want to deal with real-world BS do not play games. There's absolutely no reason to use "that's life" as an excuse not to deliver convenience to many players. It's a game, we run here to be away from real life.
I however disagree that the proposed account wide achievements would be convinient for all players. And as one of those who would find their enjoyment of the game lessened by such... I argue against it.
I repeat, I would have no problem if the whole idea was to -add- a second system that made things convinennt for the players that find the current system inconvinient - as long as it did not lower the effort required by spreading it over multiple characters so people would be able to gain achievements without going the extra mile that others had to do, and as long as it did not share titles in a way to lessen their value.
Kinda have to agree - the trophies are no fun...How am I doing it wrong? There's absolutely nothing fun in fishing or grinding for trophies or whatever. And yes there's a reason to make it account-wide -- convenience would be one. A lot of players would prefer it(while others would still keep all the functions there are now) - would be another one.
The fishing on the other hand... I found it quite enjoyable. Maybe because I haven't finished it though I could see how it would get tenious after a while... but that is what makes it a valuable title!
And the players who DID spend all the effort would feel rather vexed if new players could get the same epen-decoration for their characters at much less effort.
I knoooooowwwwww... all too few people care about immersion, and roleplaying, and they treat people like me, well, like all the nerds in all the comedies usually get treated, with scorn and ridicule.The effort would not be shared. It would still be only one player contributing to the achievements. The spirit of "equal rights for all" can also means that all titles should be shared. And many players value their convenience over some dumb limitations. That's why they are getting nameplates, for example, - they don't care about immersion or whatever.
And that may be one of the reasons why many roleplayers are so desperate about the few things we have left in many games...
Thanks. Mentioned it a few times before, usually in discussions about the idea of a prison system... And again... those should be character specific...Awesome idea about unlocking tats, hairstyles etc. with the achievements! Props. (but most likely, if introduced would end up account wide since they are more likely to add more options like that to the crown store first, and all crown store mechanics trump the rest, because profit rules. And I would dislike it, but accept it)
Correct me if I am wrong, but... its endurance for both driver, AND car. Since such ralleys usually have a "no change cars" rule. Chnage tires, yes. Fix it if it breaks - if they can. But if a machine is unrepairable, the event is over for that team, there is no "switch to a new car" in mid-ralley.Yes it would be an endurance test - it's the driver who has to drive and put effort. It also wouldn't change much, because all other drivers would be allowed to replace their cars, too.
And there definitely is no "do the street part on a sports car, then do the desert part on a offroad car" for a ralley like, say, paris-dakar, right?
If I told what I give about political correnctness... the forum admins would have to censor my post. Again. Despite the Spider Jesusalem quote being really nifty.Ah I see, you're one of that political correct crowd. No, stating the facts wouldn't be name calling, no matter how much it can offend someone.
But... I follow the forum rules, and so restrain myself from getting crude or rude. Pity not everyone does the same.2 -
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✭TheShadowScout wrote: »Actually that is not quite true. If a in-game book adresses the "reader", it would adress your character, since it is in-character information.
The journal... is somewhat out-of-character in design, but that does not neccessarily mean it adresses "the player". And since the effect definitely does not... one could surmise that it adressed the combination of player and character... after all, as I mentioned times and times before, the player is not the one who learns a crafting motiv, the player is the one who clicks their mouse to make their character in the game world learn a crafting motiv. Et cetera.
Yeah the difference an in-game book is something a character find in that virtual world and reads. So he's a reader. Achievements tab? No. A player presses J and reads it. A character doesn't have access to it. The fact that one achievement says something like "apply a legendary enchant crafted by a character to a piece of armor crafted by that character" only proves that the game admits characters are tools/avatars and is addressing the player.
Yes, the player clicks the button so that motif is unlocked.. right now it's on one character but it doesn't matter which one because all it took is to click a button, so it obviously should be fixed. When you see your friend on another character and you know his main is a crafter - you message him to craft something. WHen you message a character, you don't message a character. You message a player who plays that character and by doing that you accept that a player owns everything his characters own. So it's only logical to make it MORE convenient for the owner. Unless you and your friends are in 100% RP-mode all the time you're playing - you really have no right to say something about characters being separate things living their own life and having their own knowledge of motifs and skills and their own achievement and titles. All of that is owned by a player.TheShadowScout wrote: »They are character specific in effect right now. That's the way the developers made them in ESO. That's the way they are in all the othe few MMOs I ever played. Quite possibly there are some MMOs where they aren't.
But, no matter how much you talk, no matter how often you state the opposite, that does not change the fact that they Are Not Player Specific - now.
You want it to change.
That is your desire.
Doesn't mean they have already changed.
Doesn't mean that your opinion about them becomes fact.
And it is the way many other players want it to be... and the wording does not really adress who the imperative is aimed at, the fictuional person of the character, or the real parson of the player. And seeing how the effect is counted for the character...
Yes, which is wrong, which is why you see this thread and will see more. And you haven't played good MMOs then, you should expand your world-view. (p.s. the only good mmo is wow).
Obviously they haven't changed yet, that's why threads like this keep and will keep being created.
Yes, the wording does address who it's aimed at. It's aimed at the reader and it mentions the character in the 3rd person at least once, therefore it's addressed to the player.
I mean, DUH, it's the player playing the game, not the character. Obviously everything that's in interface is addressed to the player. Like, are you seriously gonna argue with that?TheShadowScout wrote: »True, just because something is the way it is now does not mean it is good.
But it also does not mean that if some people want it to be different, that the way something is must be bad.
When everyone agrees its bad, it ought to be changed.
But not everyone agrees with your point of view here...
And personally I like it, as from my point of view it -encourages- people to play alts. Having everything account-wide like you dream about would feel discouraging for me - some people are like that, you know, roleplayers who actually enjoy doing the same things with different characters as a way to pass the time between DLCs.
I say again, the core of our disagreement is an "opposing point of view" sort of thing...
But you just deny my right to have fun. That change wouldn't do anything to your gameplay. You would still have all the features you have now. On the other hand, I would have something I am missing now. So, now - you have everything and I don't. If they changed it - we'd both have everything. Positive-sum typa thing and should be implemented .
The core is you view. You want to punish players and force them to do things they shouldn't have to do. No, it wouldn't discourage you. You would still have everything! It would just add metaachievements tab or whatever you call it. Showing me what I got as a player.
As I said before:
It's like if your country had a law that every citizen should take a pole deep in the ass every day. Someone would say there's no good reason for that and it people don't deserve that treatment. And you would say "All of them do. Now. You just want it to change". Duhh, of course I want that to change.
And in your opinion that law is fair and good, because SOME people enjoy it. That's the core of our disagreement.
And yes, not everyone likes my point of view, but look at the link in my previous comment. Not everyone likes my point of view, but there is more people liking my point of view than people liking your point of view. So again, why shouldn't we make the change that will make game better for more players, while not changing anything in others' gameplay?TheShadowScout wrote: »No, I happen to think its not dumb that you can't use titles without doing the work for them on each character you want to use them. Be it a title gained by skill, luck, or patience. I would think it dumb if you could use a title you earned on your main on an alt, even if it required no skill, merely luck or lots of patience.
We shall keep disagreeing on this I wager...
Not at all dumb. It's the player who spent effort, not the character. But the main thing - nothing would change for you. For all you know, I DID get that title on the character you see me online with and using it. And well I did spent 100% of the effort so I deserve having that title. It's just more convenient for me and it doesn't ruin your immersion or doesn't change anything for you, so there's no reason not to change it.
And as I said, unless you're in RP mode 100% of the time and don't acknowledge players behind characters in-game, you shouldn't push this point of view that aggressively. You then are not consistent and are being a hypocrite: accept the reality of having players when it's convenient for you, don't let others do that just because you don't want that option for yourself.TheShadowScout wrote: »Okay. False. True.
Characters are player avatars. Yet they are not nothing. They are something a player uses to do his will, but they are also more... if they were not, then they were all the same. There are games like that, where every "sniper" is just like any other "sniper", and the game characters matter not in the slightest. But as soon as you can have your own name for characters, and choose your own appereance, a funny little thing happens - some people start to think of their personalized characters as roles to play, instead of "nothing" as you seem to do. And once a character is a role to play for a player, it becomes important for those people to have immersion and consistency. And that includes character-specific titles and achievements.
Yes, everything they do and have belongs to a player, not them. No matter if Zeus is using a white bull or golden rain as an avatar at the moment. He's still the God of Thunder and the King of Gods. He has all his titles no matter which avatar he's using right now. And Perseus is the son of Zeus, not the son of golden rain.
No, they don't address that character. They address the player. I pointed that out already. Just see for yourself in game.TheShadowScout wrote: »And I keep saying, the title or achievement is not the "prize" you take home. Its more like the control stamp that this character passed that inspection point. Guided by that player, of course, but still only This character, not All characters. Just like your -character- gains the Pact Hero title for completing that storyline, and then the others for doing the other alliance storylines through cadwells. Checkpoint passed, title gained. A different character would have no claim at all to those titles unless and until that character also passed this or that checkpoint. Because following the effect, the titles are for -characters- not a gamerscore for players. Makes perfect sense to me.
That is exactly what I mean by changes. Adding something is a change if it wasn't there before. It's semantics. I said many times that I don't want to for zos to take your ability to see achievements on separate toons from you. Why would I want that? Unlike you, I acknowledge your right to have fun.TheShadowScout wrote: »I keep saying, there are reasons not to implement changes to the deteriment of those who like character-specific differences.
And I keep suggesting, that instead of changing things, there might be an argument to be made for -adding- something so the people who like to see their account "progress" could do so, without changing the current system.
As for less effort... true for manufactoring processes.
But is it true for other things?
School, for example? I mean, maybe there are some schools who give out passing grades because a student once three years ago managed to pass a test, even if they have not appeared to any test ever since. it certainly would explain some things I keep hearing about those "average americans" in rumours and such where one can never be quite sure if it's merely a cruel jest, or has some core of truth... but I grew up with a system where you had to spend the effort every year to pass.
Exactly, those rumors seem be to true lol. But no, that's a bad analogy. I don't ask to unlock all the new achievements that come out with new DLCs. We'd still have to complete them, just like you had to pass tests every year.
A person can complete some things with any character, whereas similar character can or can not complete something depending on who's playing them. So yeah, it demonstrates how person>character.TheShadowScout wrote: »Seeing how the person can also not achieve anything in the game without a character, this point is somewhat falling short of convincing...
Why? Why should I do that? That's inconvenient and not fun. I've done it once, I want to have fun and do something new all the time. Again,TheShadowScout wrote: »It can be seen that way. And yet, that does not mean that the things you did with that character ought to copy over to the other characters as well. Just change characters, and do them again if youi really want to show off a certain title on a different character. Or decide it not worth it, and leave the other character without that extra special title. I know I do both of those...
It's like if your country had a law that every citizen should take a pole deep in the ass every day. Someone would say there's no good reason for that and it people don't deserve that treatment. And you would say "All of them do. Now. You just want it to change". Duhh, of course I want that to change.
And in your opinion that law is fair and good, because SOME people enjoy it.
You can still enjoy having a pole in your ass all you want. Why do you reject other people's right not to? We don't ask to take this option away from you. We ask not to keep it mandatory for us.
Achievements won't be unlocked for all the characters. Only rewards will be, like most of them already are: dyes, costumes, pets. Titles are long overdue to join that list. I'll say more, those other things are unlocked for character -specific achievements. So no, in the case of either all or none, of course all should be unlocked then. It's more convenient and fun. And you can still not use it if you dont' think it's logical and you don't see achievements as something completed by players. Otherrs do - so they will be able to act accordingly. They pay as much money as you do and don't deserve worse treatment.TheShadowScout wrote: »A control stamp that this car passed that checkpoint does not carry over. And that is how I see achievements. You can keep seeing them as acknoledgement of the things the player did. I will keep disagreeing.
And I keep saying, either all titles copy, or none should, and since many titles do depend on the character, none should.
And you still only get achievements for your character, and NOT for your account. No matter how often you state it.
Then again, I'm proposing an optimal solution, where some are titles are character-specific. Not many of them depend on the character too btw.
Yes, you get them for you character, whereas it's YOU who earns them. THat's why threads like that will keep being created.
It's a computer game in a fantasy world. everything is a lie here. Don't play it if the truth is so important. Then again, you will have an option not to lie. Don't tell other players how to enjoy the game. They are paying for it just like you do.TheShadowScout wrote: »I disagree. Truth is important to me.They did go out and did it. With another character. And if it didn't matter which one was used - the title should be shared.
Wut? Do you want me to show you a lvl 3 character having a V16 master weapon in his bag?TheShadowScout wrote: »If the player did it with another character, the title is on another character. Just like when the player got that nifty weapon - on one character. Just when the player got that last skyshard - on one character. just when the player got emperor - on one character.
All the other things are just a dumb design promoting grind and the waste of time. Once again, emperor is one thing, fishing or trophies - is something else.
Why? Why should that be the case? It's the player who earned it. Just because you wouldn't do it you want to refuse others to have fun? When I'm on my alt it's still me. Why can I use a pet unlocked by the achievement, dyes, costumes , but not titles? That makes no sense. It's just another reward.TheShadowScout wrote: »But the player does get rewarded for their effort.
They earned the title - on one character.
But they did not on the other characters.
If the title is importrant to them, they can pick and choose which character to earn it with.
If they want it on more then one character, they can choose to play some more.
The "effort to earn" for the titles was obviously balanced for earning them on one character. So why should it suddenly buy the title for all characters?
Now what if I delete that character, because I want to play another race or class with the same name or have a different name? Does it mean that I didn't spend effort and didn't earn the reward? No it doesn't.
IT would suddenly be for all characters like all other rewards+guilds+banks are. It wouldn't be sudden at all. It also would be convenient for many players and more than 50% voted for that option in polls on forums. You can still only use titles you earned by one character if RP is so important for you. For most players it's not. Why do you force them to have a pole in their ass? If you like it - go ahead, but don't force others. Let them have what they like since it doesn't affect your gameplay at all.yes, some "titles" are specific to thingies others aren't. And the thing is, that capes etc aren't tools, like characters or hockey sticks. They are decorations and costumes like... well, costumes.TheShadowScout wrote: »So you say, any cape Bela Lugosi owned can be sold as "The Cape From The First Dracula Movie"? Because, according to your "logic" after all, it was the actor who was in the movie, and he owned the cape, so its all right???
I am pretty sure if you tried something like that, a judge might disagree with your "logic". Even though that cape was only special by having happened to be the one that "was there" at the time...
Is Maelstrom baron costume is the "The costume That character earned in vMA"? It is shared though. Don't see many players having issue with that or with stuff from imperial city sewers. No, I didn't say that cape would be what you said, it would be the cape owned by bela lugosi.
Anyways, you will still have an option not to wear a maelstrom costume with the toons you didn't complete it with, just like you have this option now. You will still have an option not to wear crown store costumes on more than one toon,just like now. YOu will still have an option not to use a pet, skin, and costumes from imperial sewers just like now. Same with titles. But I and MANY OTHERS will have an option to wear them just like they want without taking any freedom away from you. I don't get it why you want to keep constraints on other players just because you don't need those degrees of freedom. They are not worse than you and deserve to have fun too. Especially when this fun is harmless for other people.
Not at all. In that case I was objective.TheShadowScout wrote: »No, you are not - you keep making that claim, yet you still argue subjective from your point of view.
Lol are you having troubles with simple logic? Of course it didn't change already, that's why this thread is created. We see no good reason for that not to be change when the game and most players already acknowledge that it's the players not characters who complete things. It's only displayed for one character and it's not cool. That's the whole point.TheShadowScout wrote: »The player earns the in-game-pretend-title with their in-game-pretend-character. The title is NOT displayed for the player, it is displayed for the character. You have no titles at all until you select a character, and then you only have those titles you have earned For This Character.
You want this to change. That does not make it already changed..
No, their ownership can and should exist through their account which can have more than 1 character. Thus the title can be player specifc, just like mounts, costumes, pets etc.TheShadowScout wrote: »The title only exists in the game world. The character only exists in the game world. The player only exists in the real world. So their "ownership" of the title can only exist through their character. Thus the title must be character specific.
Like any other character, really.
When actor Hayden Christensen played character Anakin Skywalker "earning" the title of "Jedi Knight" at the end of the second prequel, who did the title "belong" to?
When actor Viggo Mortensen played character Aragorn "earning" the title of "King of Gondor" in the third part, who did the title "belong" to?
So why should a player suddenly claim ownership to a "Pact Hero" (or any other) in-game title on a personal basis?
You are talking about scripted movies where actors don't control anything, they just play roles to show how things happened in the book or RL or whatever. It's not similar to computer games in any way.The game shows what was completed with a character for no good reason. It is designed as account-wide. That's just one more *** way of forcing players to waste time to make up for the lack of content. IT's a time sink. Just like RNG. Do you also support RNG? Good luck with those master weapons and icp sets.
Oh you do? And I hate that I can't use my titles or show off my account-wide unique-achievement score or see where I'm at progress-wise when I'm on my alt.TheShadowScout wrote: »Fu... uhm... forget RNG. I hate that mechanic. But I just do without the master weapons and go with other stuff...
But in case you have not noticed - the whole game is a time sink. That is its purpose. To allow people to waste some time in a way that distracts them from the dreary reality.
So you keep saying, you want it changed to it requires people to waste less time...
...which would be entirely contrary to its basic purpose.
So you keep saying, you want it changed to cater to the people who want more for less...
...who are usually exactly those people who pay the least for the game.
So you keep saying you want it changed to be more fun for those unwilling to spend extra effort...
...to the detriment of those who are willing to spend eftra effort, and yes, also extra money?
Somehow I fail to see where the benefit for ZOS should be in your idea...
Yes, if I started saying "No, we should keep RNG system because I am okay with that and I got all I need or I don't need anything" you would say it's a dumb argument and I'm not letting other people have fun. Well, that's what you're saying about account achievements and sharing titles.
And no, the purpose of the game is not to just waste time. The purpose is to spend time having fun! Otherwise, if you were right people wouldn't care what to play and there would be no need in more than 1 game whichever was created first.
People would spend extra money if they have time for that. When they are forced to grind they are like "F U I won't give you any money if you force me to do this". That's why people buy new DLC - because it's NEW content that they can do. They pay to have fun and experience/see new things.TheShadowScout wrote: »You did not find any shyshards - you found these skyshards With Your Character.
You did not find any books - you found those With Your character.
A player cannot do ANYTHING in the game world - except through their character.
Yes, the character is a player avatar. But within the context of the story, each character is their own individual person, and not merely facets of some higher beaing. And since the titles also exist only within the context of the story, it just makes no sense at all to have them specific to the player, and all sense to have them specific to the character.
And actually, the legends were older then the concept of Avatar and Diety being different - they usually all go like "Zeus came in the form or a golden shower", or "Zeus came in the form of a white swan"... not mentioning if Zeus was playing an avatar, or was just shapeshifting very impressively. (Leaving aside how it might just as well have been a case of being doped up on incense and trying to put half-remembered glimpses into a story which then grew in the telling...) Not that it matters much in this regard...
Lol you are trolling for sure. Of course I've done everything with that character. But it was ME. In most cases it could be ANY character and that has to be acknowledged. That's it's A PLAYER spending effort, not a character.
But thankfully it's not real life and there's no good reason to force players to work more for something that doesn't change game balance and doesn't change their combat strength.TheShadowScout wrote: »True. Player spend effort.
Shared between characters.
Just like any other effort... its a difference if you paint one picture, or if you spend the same time painting half of two pictures. You keep saying, if you paint one picture, that effort should copy over to all the different pictures you also started.
And there's no reason to force him to do that more than once. And no, it's not how it sounds, more like "Look, I have no life I spent hours clicking a mouse button and it wasn't fun unlike other content that grants other achievements". No reason to force him to do something boring again. It's counter-productive and is bad for him.TheShadowScout wrote: »No, it -requires- the player to do boring stuff -if- he wants a certain achievement for that character.
THAT is why some achievements are something to subtly brag about - "look, see, I spent the extra effort, I went the extra mile!"
That stated, I would agree that for some achievements, the effort seems a bit... much. Especially the extra boring ones... like trophy hunting, master angling, or dolmen general farming. On the other hand... that makes then extra special.
And I would gladly discuss ways to make them a bit less annoying - but sharing them across all characters is not the way I would like to see, nor agree with.
And now the balance is skewed towards time spent. Some achievements take months and years to get. It's absolutely unreasonable to make players go through this again. And it does limit achievement hunters a lot - for example, we can't really commit to playing any other characters than our main, because playing them means we aren't progressing and aren't working towards any new achievements. And if, say, we'd complete something on an alt that's not completed by main - then we wouldn't have those scores summed up anywhere. We'd still have to work for it on the main once again just so that he has a total score with that achievement included. This is a bad design. Clearly L2D(esign) issue.TheShadowScout wrote: »Technically, it can easily be seen as "waste of time". I know, many people tell me so now and then.
But you are right, people play this to have fun... or at least, to forget how little fun they often have in their real life.
And the developers want to have a balance between "time spent" and "fun had" - if they gave people all the fun right away, the people would not have anything to do, and leave for another game on short notice. Thus they have lots of different things to achieve, with widely varying effort needed.TheShadowScout wrote: »And actually I for one would think your proposed account-wide system would prevent More people from playing alts. After all, if all counted from your main already, why even bother with alts overly much anyhow? Why spend any extra effort on them?
Of course, the "make it ALL character specific" would also have a negative effect on alting enjoyment... when you would have to spend -too- much time to get all your alts to a certain level so you could do certain things (aka, endgame stuff) with them. And there the developers wisely made some account wide benefits that even roleplayers like me can appreciate...
That however is a non-issue for achievements, since they do not DO anything. (well excalt unlocking dyes, which are already account wide, and titles, which again have no game effect of their own). Achievement are merely checkpoints what this or that character has done, and has yet to do.
And in the end, the game gets to be good by finding a viable balance between account wide, and character specificness. And I say ESO is already giving a LOT account wide, so there is no need to shift the balance even further.
How? Vice versa it would mean that you can play alts and not waste time and contribute to your total score. Once again, you would not have achievements counted on every toon, you'd just have total score, but you'd still see certain achievements as incomplete if they were only completed on other toons.
Well perfect, if you admit dyes or titles are simply cosmetic and don't do anything, then why not unlock titles as well as dyes? After all, I don't even see most names and their titles, but I do see if a person has that green dye from SO for example when he clearly couldn't complete it with an alt. So how come you have no issue with that? That is much more obvious than titles.TheShadowScout wrote: »I do not doubt that more players would like a WOW-ish system. Promises of free stuff always draws masses. Especially masses unwilling to spend effort, or money...
Would it be a good business practice though? Or would it lead to the very same people breezing through the game in record time and leaving for the next thing just as quickly?
Of course it would be. WOW is and always has been the most successful MMORPG. In fact, WOTLK was a peak of the population, that's when a lot people were attracted to the game and came to play it. And yes, you got it correctly - that is EXACTLY the addon that introduced the account-wide achievement system.
As you said most MMORPGs you player didn't have account-wide achievements while WOW has it. Well let's compare their player bases or how much money they make and see where people breeze through the game and leave for the next thing.
Give me some names here and I'll see if I can find info. Had this site with stats, forgot it now, but I'll look for it.Nah, did he slay a dragon? He did. So he's a dragonslayer. So his name can be replaced by that. So "Siegfrid's other swords" are actually "Dragonslayer's other swords". Because HE is the one who's slain a dragon = dragonslayer.
If you want to see A dragonslayer's sword - then any sword he wielded works. If you wanna see Balmung - that's the whole different story. Once again, you're mixing character-specific titles with the rest. Don't.
No, you seem to lack any logic.TheShadowScout wrote: »You seem to strive hard to not get it, don'tcha?
Noone cares about sigfriends wooden toy sword.
They only care about the sword used in the dragonslaying.
If you show them the wooden toy sword when they ask about the "dragonalsyers sword", they'll punch youi in the face and demand their money back, or whatever else is cultutally appropriate. No matter how much you talk about "but... it really is one of the dragonslayers other swords". This is the reasoning of a con man. Not a good thing to use when you are traing to make a good argument... unless you are hoping to only convince a couple of fools and skip town the next day...
If they don't want to see his wooden sword, they should ask to see Balmung, not his sword. You get what you ask for, nothing to complain about.
If it doesn't yet, it absolutely should. That's why threads like that keep being created. That's why they keep getting requests like that and it won't stop until something changes.TheShadowScout wrote: »All titles are gotten by the character. For some, it makes a difference which character the character is, for others its merely the players choice which character they use. Still does not mean that the title is not specific to the character it was gotten with...Again, that's not an analogy, that's just demagogy. How is a signature here similar to an achievement and how is a book in this context similar to a character? The only way it makes sense is if you understand that it did require THAT SPECIFIC book to be there to get that signature. Once again, titles like flawless conqueror require skill and yes completing it with 1 class doesn't mean you can do it with another class. But grind is not like that. It doesn't require the character to be there, it doesn't require THE book to be there. Any character can be there. It's THE PLAYER who spends effort and does work. A character is just one more link in the chain between a player and the result. It's like when you click a mouse button it clicks one more button. Now if you replace a button or entire mouse - you wouldn't lose the achievement. They why should you, if you replace the "second button"?
Duh, I will take two books. Here I can't take 2 characters only because it's technically impossible. Obviously some achievements don't require a certain character, they require any character just because it's the game. Those titles should be shared.TheShadowScout wrote: »So... are all of your books signed just because you carried one to the signing?
I am saying, even if it did not require that specific book to get the signature, you still only get the signature on the book that was there. Same with titles. Want two books signed? Take two books there. And since you can only drive one character at a time... you'd have to go twice.
Then again, being signed is not an achievement or a title. It's the physical change of appearance. It's like getting a tattoo. When I create a toon and he gets a tattoo, it doesn't copy over other toons (in my case it does. I'm forced to create toons of more or less the same appearance because I can't experience everything with just one toon like in TES games).
BS. It's not how much effort I spend on a character. It's look how good of a player I am, how much dps/hps I can do and how good my skill is that I can complete this and that trials.TheShadowScout wrote: »But players spend effort On Their Characters. That improves their characters, with useful stuff like levels, or gear, and decorative stuff like titles. And the achievements are still just checkpoints. So you can see how much of your effort you spend on this or on that character. And titles are just makrs for noteworthy checkpoints, so you can show them off - "Look y'all! See how much effort I spent on this character!" Some are skill effort, some different kinds of effort. But they still only exist in the game world, and thus still only should be paired with the characters you used when spending the effort - in my opinion. Yours differs. We will not agree on this.TheShadowScout wrote: »Wrong again. That is what it may mean in WoW. But that is not what it means in ESO. Or in the half dozend or so other MMORPGS I played. So just beause it means that in WoW and in your head, does not make it universal truth. Repeating your opinion also does not make it any more true, you know...
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and should feel bad. In WoW titles aren't shared, there's a combined achievement score though. It's not an opinion. It's a fact - characters don't spend effort and don't earn achievements/titles. Players do. Repeating it won't make it true, it's already true, repeating it gives other a chance to understand it.
If it's over your paygrade, it doesn't matter others didn't get it.TheShadowScout wrote: »If you really think that, then I can only surmise you failed your english classes. Since that does not seem to be the case, I have to conclude you are trying to be witty... and are only half successful.
And I have no clue why you keep saying that if it makes no sense. It's not the stick spending effort and earning the reward in the end. It's the player.TheShadowScout wrote: »And I keep saying, the moment you spend the effort to earn a title for one of the any sticks, it becomes specific to that stick, because that's the stick that was there. No matter if you could have used any stick, or if it had to be that stick. The moment it is used for the event, it becomes specific, and your other sticks that "could have also been used" don't automatically gain the title. There are no titles for "could have been".
No it's based on who spent effort and earned the reward. And it's the player, not the character. The character is just a tool. You can throw it away but if you're a person who did that and that, you are still that person with another tool.TheShadowScout wrote: »That again is a faulty assumption, based on the premise that the titles are player specific, when they are character specific. .TheShadowScout wrote: »To puit it quite simple... if you have a V16 that finishes a perfect Dragonstar run, and delete that one, why should the title stay for your newly rerolled level 1 toon?
And yes, you conceded the point for skill-based achievements.
So you maybe should have excepmted that in your above statement...
I am just adding, equal rules for all achievements. If the skill based effort can be lost that way, then all effort must follow the same rules.
Ahaha so you have no issues that he can use pets, costumes etc unlocked by v16, but not a title? What a hypocrite. And I always said that skill-based titles shouldn't necessarily share. And there's only 1 in game atm. Oh maybe a few from vmol.
Ok equal rules? Cool. So if some rewards are shared, then others should be shared too. Costumes, dyes, pets are already shared. If you are for equal rules - titles should be shared too. If you're against that - you aren't for equal rules. Or nothing should be shared. How do you think which one would be more popular? Create a poll and check yourself lol.
It would be convenient for more than 50% of players for all we know according to multiple polls on forums. And for others nothing would change. So yeah, it only adds to enjoyment of some without lessening anything.TheShadowScout wrote: »I cannot disagree with this.
I however disagree that the proposed account wide achievements would be convinient for all players. And as one of those who would find their enjoyment of the game lessened by such... I argue against it.
I repeat, I would have no problem if the whole idea was to -add- a second system that made things convinennt for the players that find the current system inconvinient - as long as it did not lower the effort required by spreading it over multiple characters so people would be able to gain achievements without going the extra mile that others had to do, and as long as it did not share titles in a way to lessen their value.
Title's value would not be lessened too of course. Still, only that player would be able to use it and he still would have spend the same amount of effort.TheShadowScout wrote: »Kinda have to agree - the trophies are no fun...
The fishing on the other hand... I found it quite enjoyable. Maybe because I haven't finished it though I could see how it would get tenious after a while... but that is what makes it a valuable title!
And the players who DID spend all the effort would feel rather vexed if new players could get the same epen-decoration for their characters at much less effort.
If you like fishing, no one will forbid you to keep doing that. But some people don't.I'd much rather do something that involves actively playing and using my skills and maybe even socializing, than just clicking one button.
Other players wouldn't spend less effort. They'd spend the same effort. And new players would never be able to get those titles fast. I mean you're talking about epeen decorations - pets, costumes, dyes are those and are much more obvious than titles. You don't see names until you target a player, you do see what color is his gear or what costume he's wearing or what pet he has.TheShadowScout wrote: »I knoooooowwwwww... all too few people care about immersion, and roleplaying, and they treat people like me, well, like all the nerds in all the comedies usually get treated, with scorn and ridicule.
And that may be one of the reasons why many roleplayers are so desperate about the few things we have left in many games...
Well, see, I don't ridicule you. I respect RPers tremendously and don't want to ruin your immersion. I'm trying to keep my game as immersive as possible too. And maybe I would try RP myself if I was good in English... Anyways, that is why I don't want you to lose anything and what I propose only ADDS things for others without taking anything away from you.
The thing is, I respect RPers way of playing, why can't they respect the way others play? No one will force RPers to use any of that convenience stuff we are asking for. You pay money, we pay money. Why can't we all have fun especially when it's not interfering with the other group's fun?
Good, keep pushing new stuff instead of limiting othersTheShadowScout wrote: »Thanks. Mentioned it a few times before, usually in discussions about the idea of a prison system... And again... those should be character specific... (but most likely, if introduced would end up account wide since they are more likely to add more options like that to the crown store first, and all crown store mechanics trump the rest, because profit rules. And I would dislike it, but accept it) No reason for those features to be character specific when dyes, costumes, pets already aren't. Just why add more pain in the ass to others? You still can choose not to use anything that wasn't unlocked on that toon.Yes it would be an endurance test - it's the driver who has to drive and put effort. It also wouldn't change much, because all other drivers would be allowed to replace their cars, too.
I'm not into that so can't correct you or confirm. Too much specifics at this point anyway. How does it matter what it is with cars? What we are playing is not a race or an endurance test, it's a game and is supposed to be fun.TheShadowScout wrote: »Correct me if I am wrong, but... its endurance for both driver, AND car. Since such ralleys usually have a "no change cars" rule. Chnage tires, yes. Fix it if it breaks - if they can. But if a machine is unrepairable, the event is over for that team, there is no "switch to a new car" in mid-ralley.
And there definitely is no "do the street part on a sports car, then do the desert part on a offroad car" for a ralley like, say, paris-dakar, right?
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That is actually not quite correct.Yeah the difference an in-game book is something a character find in that virtual world and reads. So he's a reader. Achievements tab? No. A player presses J and reads it. A character doesn't have access to it.
Yes, a character does not "have access to it" - but the tab represents character knowledge, a mechanical way to let the player see what the pretend person of the character would remember having done, or not having done. Just like the other journal tabs, which show which quests are still open (aka, the character remembering what someone somewhere asked them to take care of), which books have been read (aka, the character remembering what they read at some time), or leaderboards (aka, the character remembering whose names they heard spokem with praise in regards of some great deeds)
You may notice, ALL of those are character-specific information.
And now you say, the "achievement" tab among then should somehow be completely different???
Funny you should mention that one...The fact that one achievement says something like "apply a legendary enchant crafted by a character to a piece of armor crafted by that character" only proves that the game admits characters are tools/avatars and is addressing the player.
Nowaadays it reads: "Have a character apply a Legendary Enchantment that they created, to a Legendary piece of gear that they created"
It -used- to be that you could do this one no matter if you or an alt of yours created the gear, but the powers that be changed this to make it so that it can Only be done if the character you want to have it with was the one who crafted all the stuff.
I say that best reflects the opinion of the game developers on the whole discussuion...
Character-specific it is!
No matter how some people may try to use the wording of it to try and agrue otherwise...
True, and yet, completely irrelevant.Yes, the player clicks the button so that motif is unlocked.. right now it's on one character but it doesn't matter which one because all it took is to click a button, so it obviously should be fixed. When you see your friend on another character and you know his main is a crafter - you message him to craft something. WHen you message a character, you don't message a character. You message a player who plays that character and by doing that you accept that a player owns everything his characters own. So it's only logical to make it MORE convenient for the owner. Unless you and your friends are in 100% RP-mode all the time you're playing - you really have no right to say something about characters being separate things living their own life and having their own knowledge of motifs and skills and their own achievement and titles. All of that is owned by a player.
Just like you can own seperate cars, or seperate suits, and they will all be owned by you, yet still have their own specific features - just because you own things does not mean each and every one of them becomes the sum of your possessions in effect, yes?
And titles don't show up on the friends screen... they show up in-world, when you see someone. The friends screen and guild screens have a place for notes, just for those with crafter alts to convey the info...
You say convinience, yet ask for free shortcuts.
Want shortcuts?
Pay for them - that is why they sell stuff in the crown store.
(...makes me wonder if they will start selling dye unblocks someday... some of those nifty dyes take a fuckton of effort, and I think some people would gladly pay for some of them... profit to be made!)
It is not wrong, it is a developer choice.Yes, which is wrong, which is why you see this thread and will see more. And you haven't played good MMOs then, you should expand your world-view. (p.s. the only good mmo is wow).
You see it as wrong. And I don't doubt some agree with you.
I see it as right. And I don't doubt some agree with me.
And I don't play bad MMOs (p.s. - WoW is exactly the kind of thing I think about when I write that, for me its the shining example of what I do not want to play - good and bad too are all in the eye of the beholder after all)
I play MMOs that appeal to my roleplayer side, meaning from an nice rich background where I can nerd out with lore and stuff, where I can pretend to be my character and enjoy the immersion.
Not going to argue with that, just saying, its irrelevent. I mean, duh, who else but the player would read this? But - more importantly, what information does the text that is read convey? And as outlined above, it conveys character-specific information. All of the journal tab. Like said, it is a clumsy-by-technical-neccessity way to convey the pretend-memories of the pretent-person the character is, so the player can look it up.Obviously they haven't changed yet, that's why threads like this keep and will keep being created.
Yes, the wording does address who it's aimed at. It's aimed at the reader and it mentions the character in the 3rd person at least once, therefore it's addressed to the player.
I mean, DUH, it's the player playing the game, not the character. Obviously everything that's in interface is addressed to the player. Like, are you seriously gonna argue with that?
I argue against your right to "have fun" at my expense.But you just deny my right to have fun. That change wouldn't do anything to your gameplay. You would still have all the features you have now. On the other hand, I would have something I am missing now. So, now - you have everything and I don't. If they changed it - we'd both have everything. Positive-sum typa thing and should be implemented.
And having account-shared acheivements for shared titles and shared effort yould be changing things for me.
Basically, you keep coming back to that... you want a shortcut to get what others have to work hard for cheap, and to have it copied over all your characters by doing it once, thereby devaluing the experience for others, just because you want to reach your "Finished!" point sooner, and call that "your fun".
And I do not want that.
Like mentioned before... an -additional- account wide achievement tab on the character select screen for people who like to keep track of their "player progress" - no problem with that at all.
Noone is punishing or forcing people to do anything. I just want that the current value of the achievements is maintained instead of cheapened. meaning those who want them, should also spend the extra effort to get them, and those who think they shouldn't have to spend the effort, should have to do without the achievement/title.The core is you view. You want to punish players and force them to do things they shouldn't have to do. No, it wouldn't discourage you. You would still have everything! It would just add metaachievements tab or whatever you call it. Showing me what I got as a player.
And again, I have NO Problem whatsoever with arguing for an -additional- metachievement-tab to show you what you got as player - as long as it is -in addition- to the current system and not a replacement.
No, the core of our disagreement is that you say the law is a pole up the rear, and I disagree with your story, and instead say that the law is that you only gain ownership After you paid the full purchase price, not as soon as you have possession by picking the thing up.As I said before:
It's like if your country had a law that every citizen should take a pole deep in the ass every day. Someone would say there's no good reason for that and it people don't deserve that treatment. And you would say "All of them do. Now. You just want it to change". Duhh, of course I want that to change.
And in your opinion that law is fair and good, because SOME people enjoy it. That's the core of our disagreement.
As for the core of our disagreement... that has nothing to do at all with poles or bodily orfices no matter how much you may say this... but on how we see characters and their achievements.
I say characters are pretend-persons that exist within the pretent-world of the game, and thus should be taken individuially as their deeds are concerned.
You say characters are "nothing" and only the player counts, so all character deeds should be grouped for a player.
(of course, you are not even consistant in that, since you had to grant that character achioevements that might be dependent on skill or character type cannot be shared...)
Better. No, no no. Quicker. Easier. More Seductive...And yes, not everyone likes my point of view, but look at the link in my previous comment. Not everyone likes my point of view, but there is more people liking my point of view than people liking your point of view. So again, why shouldn't we make the change that will make game better for more players, while not changing anything in others' gameplay?
From my point of view, it is "better" to have achievements character specific, so players have more to work towards, even if it is the same several times. Sure, those who want to grind to completion may prefer it otherwise... so they can "complete the game" and scurrry off to the next game. The others... will do this achievement on that charatcer, and that achivevement on this character, and maybe leave it at that for now, hunting down more achievements later on when they feel like it... and in the end, play ESO for longer, more likely then not.
I believe, "making things better" in this regard would be the aforementioned adding of an account achievement overview screen - without changing the existing achievements.
That way, both kinds can have theirs - one to see and chase what the individual characters have done, and the new screen for those who want to see their "account progress".
I'd like that.
But... it would not come with any shortcuts, so I expect those who are unwilling to spend extra effort will again be unhappy...
But you want to spend 100% of the effort for "one title" and then have the title multiple times, once foe each character, when there are people out there who spent the effort multiple times as the system is set up for.Not at all dumb. It's the player who spent effort, not the character. But the main thing - nothing would change for you. For all you know, I DID get that title on the character you see me online with and using it. And well I did spent 100% of the effort so I deserve having that title. It's just more convenient for me and it doesn't ruin your immersion or doesn't change anything for you, so there's no reason not to change it.
Want it multiple times?
Do it multiple times.
Because the "100% effort" is only the price For One Character. One character=100%, eight characters=... you got that far in math, I would think yes?
And yet you keep using the same old "but... player!" argument to try and make a case that the effort should not count per character, but per account. And I keep disagreeing. Want it for all characters? Pay effort for all, several times, just like everybody else! Or do it once, and then fuggedaboudit for your alts. Your choice.
While I like to RP, I also try to keep a balance between IC and OoC.And as I said, unless you're in RP mode 100% of the time and don't acknowledge players behind characters in-game, you shouldn't push this point of view that aggressively. You then are not consistent and are being a hypocrite: accept the reality of having players when it's convenient for you, don't let others do that just because you don't want that option for yourself.
And that is the point.
Balance between the two.
Not throwing away All the character specific things just because there also exist an OoC player behind all of them.
Like I mentioned before... ZOS gives their players a LOT of account wide stuff, and will soon give even more. More then any other of the half-dozend MMORPG games I played. So of course I'll argue against anyone saying there should be even more account wide stuff, be it those asking for account wide riding training, account wide crafting research, or account wide achievements.
Actually... I would think everything they do and have belongs to zenimax online systems - usually for MMO providers, there is a passus along those lines in their terms of service...Yes, everything they do and have belongs to a player, not them. No matter if Zeus is using a white bull or golden rain as an avatar at the moment. He's still the God of Thunder and the King of Gods. He has all his titles no matter which avatar he's using right now. And Perseus is the son of Zeus, not the son of golden rain.
And I am sorry that you still could not grasp the difference between the virtual title and the real one.
Yes, Zeus is king of gods no matter his form.
That is -his- title.
Just like a player who is a doctor is a doctor no matter what character they play.
Because that would be -their- title.
But the achievement titles are virtual in-game pretend-titles, for the in-game pretend-persons of the character. Just like the pretend-person of a movie character have their pretent-titles in the movie, which Do Not carry over to the actors playing them.
To keep with the Zeus thing... yes, Zeus is "King of Gods" in the greek mythology and any story based on it, but Sean Bean who played Zeus is not, and Eddard Stark who also was played by Sean Bean is not either.
Get it now?
While all additions are technically a "change" in the whole, there is a difference between adding something without changing what is there, and changing what is already there.That is exactly what I mean by changes. Adding something is a change if it wasn't there before. It's semantics. I said many times that I don't want to for zos to take your ability to see achievements on separate toons from you. Why would I want that? Unlike you, I acknowledge your right to have fun.
I have no issue with adding something.
I have issues with changing something that is there to my deteriment.
Quite possibly the rumours are true, I could not say.Exactly, those rumors seem be to true lol. But no, that's a bad analogy. I don't ask to unlock all the new achievements that come out with new DLCs. We'd still have to complete them, just like you had to pass tests every year.
But you do seem to ask that you have to cpmplete the achievements only once, and then benefit from their one completion on multiple characters.
And I seem to be disagreeing with that notion, so...
Yet they still complete it With That Character, and thus get the title for it floating above the head Of That Character.A person can complete some things with any character, whereas similar character can or can not complete something depending on who's playing them. So yeah, it demonstrates how person>character.
If they completel something without character, or something that needs multiple characters, then I would see the title being acount wide. There could be titles like that, you know... there aren't, but there could.
I sometimes find it fun to do the same things with different charaters sometime, and in those instances when I don't, I just let my alts do without the title/achievement.Why? Why should I do that? That's inconvenient and not fun. I've done it once, I want to have fun and do something new all the time.
Who is stopping you from doing the same?
What is stopping you from doing new stuff until you run out of new stuff to do?
Why must all things being whittled down to your level just so you can "have fun" to the disappointment of everyone else except the others from the "gimme crowd" who want everything handed to them quick and easy?
That is your opinion.Achievements won't be unlocked for all the characters. Only rewards will be, like most of them already are: dyes, costumes, pets. Titles are long overdue to join that list.
Mine differs.
I happen to think that in the light of how much already got turned account wide, titles -especially- should remain character specific. You could not help but agree for the ones where differences in character may affect the outcome, remember? I just say, equal rights for all titles, even the ones that "could be done with any character" - just do them with the character you want them for, and not do them for the characters you don't care enough for to make the effort...
Wrong. Everything is a fiction here, but that does not make it a lie - a lie is a fiction claiming to be truth, a fiction that makes no such claims is a story instead.It's a computer game in a fantasy world. everything is a lie here.
Personally I think those who need to lie to "enjoy" something are one of the things that makes this world worse then it is. Thus I will keep arguing agaisnt that kind of thing when I encounter it. You may find your enjoyment in defrauding others, but do not expect me to agree with that sort of thing.Don't play it if the truth is so important. Then again, you will have an option not to lie. Don't tell other players how to enjoy the game. They are paying for it just like you do.
Both are merely marks on a computer file, as you outlined before, are they not?All the other things are just a dumb design promoting grind and the waste of time. Once again, emperor is one thing, fishing or trophies - is something else.
What makes the marks on the file different is how easy or hard they werre to get.
And I keep arguing against changing the difficulty from what people had to work for...
...on That single character...Why? Why should that be the case? It's the player who earned it.
Just like you spend effort to paint one picture, does not mean all your other empty canvasses are now also painted pictures.
Et cetera...
...and if you burn the picture you just painted, does that mean you did not spend the effort? No. But the picture is still gone... why should it work different with characters then?Just because you wouldn't do it you want to refuse others to have fun? When I'm on my alt it's still me. Why can I use a pet unlocked by the achievement, dyes, costumes , but not titles? That makes no sense. It's just another reward.
Now what if I delete that character, because I want to play another race or class with the same name or have a different name? Does it mean that I didn't spend effort and didn't earn the reward? No it doesn't.
I see the title as the "this character was there" mark, and the costume as mere bonus, which as such can be account wide, just like the crown store purchases only mean that someone had money.Is Maelstrom baron costume is the "The costume That character earned in vMA"? It is shared though. Don't see many players having issue with that or with stuff from imperial city sewers. No, I didn't say that cape would be what you said, it would be the cape owned by bela lugosi.
Yes, those things used to be character specific in times of old, and are now account wide ever since the crown store.
Which is one of the things I mean when I say, the game has more then enough account wide stuff already, it doesn't need -everything- account wide...
Especially when it would devalue the titles. Right now they mean something -because- they take the extra effort. I for one prefer to see at least something remain that way instead of all of it handed out to the ones who would rather cry about how they "deserve" something then spend the extra effort...
Then yould you kindly refrain from making absolute statements contrary to the state of affairs in ESO?Lol are you having troubles with simple logic? Of course it didn't change already, that's why this thread is created.
And I think it IS cool to see what I complete With That Character.We see no good reason for that not to be change when the game and most players already acknowledge that it's the players not characters who complete things. It's only displayed for one character and it's not cool. That's the whole point.
And I think it IS cool that some things take extra effort to complete, and are not handed to everyone and their granny through effort shared across their multiple characters.
And I think it IS cool that only those characters who actually achieve some title-worthy thing may have that title float above their heads as silend bragging.
Not that I expect everyone to agree... just saying, there is the other side too.
I wouldn't mind a account overview... I probably would not care much for it, but I would not mind it either, and adding that would seem the optimal way to deal with the issue. (But since it wouldn't come with shortcuts... I guess you will argue agains tthat again, huh?)
It could, but it should not, in my opinion.No, their ownership can and should exist through their account which can have more than 1 character. Thus the title can be player specifc, just like mounts, costumes, pets etc.
It is very similar, actually - except that in the movies, there is a fixed script for everyone, and in the games, half of it is up to the player to fill in (which of course requires a somewhat more loose and better fleshed out work on the other side as well, since the game world has to be prepared to react to whatever the player may choose to put into their characters sript).You are talking about scripted movies where actors don't control anything, they just play roles to show how things happened in the book or RL or whatever. It's not similar to computer games in any way.
They are not your titles. They are your characters titles.Oh you do? And I hate that I can't use my titles or show off my account-wide unique-achievement score or see where I'm at progress-wise when I'm on my alt.
Noone can show off "their" titles in game... well... not unless they have them added to their account name I guess, but since everyone could call themseves "doctor" or "president" in their account names these wouldn't be worth much...
I concede the point for checking an account wide achievement score. That one should be an option. As long as it does not replace the character-specific achievement score, but is seperate from it instead.
Actually no. I would say, "sure, lets keep the RNG system, I may not really like it because my luck tends to be of the rotten flavor, but I can work with things like that, more or less..." and have my fun regardless (which is what I am doing).Yes, if I started saying "No, we should keep RNG system because I am okay with that and I got all I need or I don't need anything" you would say it's a dumb argument and I'm not letting other people have fun. Well, that's what you're saying about account achievements and sharing titles.
Agreed, having fun is the main thing.And no, the purpose of the game is not to just waste time. The purpose is to spend time having fun! Otherwise, if you were right people wouldn't care what to play and there would be no need in more than 1 game whichever was created first.
The trouble is when someone says they can only have fun if things are done -exactly like they want it- to the deteriment of other people having fun. Shared titles would lessen my fun. Account wide achivements would lessen my fun.
Noone is "forced" to grind. Some fools choose to. Others just play the game. And sometimes do without this or that because they'd rather have fun then grind for it.People would spend extra money if they have time for that. When they are forced to grind they are like "F U I won't give you any money if you force me to do this". That's why people buy new DLC - because it's NEW content that they can do. They pay to have fun and experience/see new things.
And yeah, DLC are nifty because new content. Its always better to have something new to go for then repeating old stuff... (which is why cadwells will soon be optional after all). But hey, a great many achievements keep... or do all the new critters not count for the critter killer achievements? I have no problem keeping some to progress towards in DLCs to come instead of having them all handed to me now through the account-shared effort you seem to be arguing for...
But its player spending effort On A Character.Of course I've done everything with that character. But it was ME. In most cases it could be ANY character and that has to be acknowledged. That's it's A PLAYER spending effort, not a character.
Thus the effect of the effort ought to stay on that character.
Just like you spend effort painting a empty canvas with a nice painting, that effort stays on the canvas, it does not make all the different canvasses you might own or buy already painted with different scenes as well jjst because you "spent the effort" once.
Why should it for different characters then? Each is their own work of art after all (quality may depend on player skill)
Oh? No reason? By that argument, everyone would start with a fully developed endgame character because there "is no reason to force players to work more for something"? Yes, even those things that don't change game balance or combat strength - some of us find them important nonetheless. But the very idea of the achievements is to have something those people who care can spend time and have fun working towards on their characters. Often, working towards different ones on different characters.But thankfully it's not real life and there's no good reason to force players to work more for something that doesn't change game balance and doesn't change their combat strength.
Face it, if you really think what you post, if you really cannot be happy unless you get it all handed to you, then this may be the wrong game for you.
You may be happier with games that have only premade characters, and total your deeds by player. I am certain there are games like that. I just don't usually play most of them. Why do you insist ESO would be better if they rebuilt it to be more like those other games then?
But then again, noone is forcing anyone to do anything here.And there's no reason to force him to do that more than once. And no, it's not how it sounds, more like "Look, I have no life I spent hours clicking a mouse button and it wasn't fun unlike other content that grants other achievements". No reason to force him to do something boring again. It's counter-productive and is bad for him.
You don't want to spend those hours clicking a button? Fine! Not like you -need- the achievement for anything, right?
You feel you need the achievement for something? Fine! Spend the hours clicking.
It is a Choice!
Just like doing the clicking multiple times would be.
It is a design. Good or bad is in the eye of the beholder, or in this case, player.And now the balance is skewed towards time spent. Some achievements take months and years to get. It's absolutely unreasonable to make players go through this again. And it does limit achievement hunters a lot - for example, we can't really commit to playing any other characters than our main, because playing them means we aren't progressing and aren't working towards any new achievements. And if, say, we'd complete something on an alt that's not completed by main - then we wouldn't have those scores summed up anywhere. We'd still have to work for it on the main once again just so that he has a total score with that achievement included. This is a bad design. Clearly L2D(esign) issue.
You say bad. I say good. We might as well agree to disagree...
And I get your point... a point that could be migrated by adding the account achievement overview. Where every achievement acquired on a character could be noted and totalled... with a grand score total as well. Then suddenly doing an achievement twice, thrice or more times becomes valuable, since it all adds to the grand score, thus making your alting more fun again. There even could be special unlocks for multiples... make thew achievement once, get a dye as of now, make it twice, get something else, a special hair dye or warpaint unlock for example... make it four times, maybe even get a pet or mount... like I outlined before.
(...but the gimme crowd would hate that, since it would not be shortcuts, just more rewards for those who do the extra effort - how about you, hate it or find it appealing?)
That is how you want it.How? Vice versa it would mean that you can play alts and not waste time and contribute to your total score. Once again, you would not have achievements counted on every toon, you'd just have total score, but you'd still see certain achievements as incomplete if they were only completed on other toons.
I would want both the individual scores and achievements as they are now, and maybe an added account total.
Personally I would have been happier with a "realistic" dye system where all dyes were made by alchemists, and you'd unlock them according to finding the ingredients or buying them from a vendor with gold... for a purely cosmetic dye system, not tied to achievements at all. Not that this ship hasn't sailed ans sunk a long time ago...Well perfect, if you admit dyes or titles are simply cosmetic and don't do anything, then why not unlock titles as well as dyes? After all, I don't even see most names and their titles, but I do see if a person has that green dye from SO for example when he clearly couldn't complete it with an alt. So how come you have no issue with that? That is much more obvious than titles.
But that is one of the reasons I care little about dyes, since "realistically" they would not be tied to a characters deeds in any case, and thus are a non-issue in the matter.
The other is, I can hardly remember which hue of what color was the "special" one, so I seldom notice those. A title on the other hand... that is different, since those kinda say rather explicitely what was done...
They are the most successful... for being the first, filling a market. I doubt making a game "just like WoW" would be that good a idea, since I'd reckon many players who want things WoW style would go play the original... whereas other games may find their own little niche in doing things different then WoW for those players who want to play a different game.Of course it would be. WOW is and always has been the most successful MMORPG. In fact, WOTLK was a peak of the population, that's when a lot people were attracted to the game and came to play it. And yes, you got it correctly - that is EXACTLY the addon that introduced the account-wide achievement system.
Personally, the more I keep hearing about WoW, the less I felt inclined to ever play it... so you may be barking up the wrong tree here.
You think it should. I think otherwise.If it doesn't yet, it absolutely should. That's why threads like that keep being created. That's why they keep getting requests like that and it won't stop until something changes.
And I don't doubt we'll keep getting threads like this - there are always people asking for handouts and shortcuts after all. Doesn't mean they have a valid point though, nor that their ideas would benefit the game in the long run...
Exactly. And if it was technically impossible to take two books, maybe because the store had an "only one book for signing" policy to prevent that ond granny to cart her whole library there and holding up the line, you'd have to go twice, wouldn't you? Or decide that one signed book is enough for you.Duh, I will take two books. Here I can't take 2 characters only because it's technically impossible.
Same choice you have in the game...
EXACTLY!Obviously some achievements don't require a certain character, they require any character just because it's the game. Those titles should be shared.
Then again, being signed is not an achievement or a title. It's the physical change of appearance. It's like getting a tattoo. When I create a toon and he gets a tattoo, it doesn't copy over other toons
And gaining a title is also a change - though more of a social one then a physical one. Other people can get the same title, but each has to attain it on their own. Some titles may come through skill, some through birth, others through being in the right place at the right time. Some titles are important, others, less so.
Actually it doesn't - you just create another toon with the same tatoo. The tatoo is not automatically selected in chargen after all, you have to do it by hand, right?(in my case it does. I'm forced to create toons of more or less the same appearance because I can't experience everything with just one toon like in TES games).
Those are the trial titles. The Master Angler title and similar? Totally just showing how much effort you were willing to spend on that character...BS. It's not how much effort I spend on a character. It's look how good of a player I am, how much dps/hps I can do and how good my skill is that I can complete this and that trials.
That is why I only say it -may- mean that in WoW, because I cannot speak for that game.You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and should feel bad. In WoW titles aren't shared, there's a combined achievement score though. It's not an opinion. It's a fact - characters don't spend effort and don't earn achievements/titles. Players do. Repeating it won't make it true, it's already true, repeating it gives other a chance to understand it.
But the fact does not change that some games may achievement-count the effort spent for the player who spent the effort, and other games count the effort spent for the character it was spent on.
Which means your notion that your way is the only way is invalid. And just repeating it as absolute statement in denial of the other possibilities does not make the other point of view disappear...
Its also not the canvas who makes the painting, and yet once the painter has painted it, the effort spent sticks to the canvas, and does not copy over to all other canvasses (or sticks) the painter (or player) may own.And I have no clue why you keep saying that if it makes no sense. It's not the stick spending effort and earning the reward in the end. It's the player.
And yet, effort spent on your tool sticks to the tool and not to the person.No it's based on who spent effort and earned the reward. And it's the player, not the character. The character is just a tool. You can throw it away but if you're a person who did that and that, you are still that person with another tool.
Sharpen one knife, and that knife will be sharp, yet your others won't. You can throw it away and pick up another, but the other won't be sharper for your effort to sharpen the first knife, yes?
Paint one knife with pretty pictures, and that knife will be pretty (depending on your skill in paining), yet your others won't
Have one knife signed by a famous smith, and only that knife is signed, yet your others won't be.
Call one knife a special name, and that name too sticks to this knife... (well, most knives are not worth special names, but... you get the point, I hope?)
Yes. Because those I can see as mere decoration - immersion wise, pets can be gotten from many a source, clothes from every tailor, and so forth, yet a title is a sign of that characters reputation. Even if its all make believe.Ahaha so you have no issues that he can use pets, costumes etc unlocked by v16, but not a title?
You keep seeing all as "rewards" and I keep making a distinction between OoC stuff (like costumes, pets, dyes, that fluff-wise would not drop from the sky upon attaining some achievement, but would be bought from traders, just the powers that be choose this out of character mechanic to parcel them out instead) and IC stuff (like titles, which fluff-wise could only be earned for a character by that character doing the thing that gains them the title - even if its all virtual). And yet you yourself make a distinction between skill based titles and those where the character used may not matter... contradicting yourself? Not the best way to go about for an argument...Ok equal rules? Cool. So if some rewards are shared, then others should be shared too. Costumes, dyes, pets are already shared. If you are for equal rules - titles should be shared too. If you're against that - you aren't for equal rules. Or nothing should be shared. How do you think which one would be more popular? Create a poll and check yourself lol.
Oh, it would. You keep saying that, yet you contradict yourself when you mention how some titles take too much effort to go for and your "shared effort" idea as way tro make it easier.It would be convenient for more than 50% of players for all we know according to multiple polls on forums. And for others nothing would change. So yeah, it only adds to enjoyment of some without lessening anything.
Title's value would not be lessened too of course. Still, only that player would be able to use it and he still would have spend the same amount of effort.
The point is, if the current effort currently buys the title for One character, then IF there was a shared system, the effort to buy the same title for All characters would logically have to be much greater, yes?
As for a solution where really "nothing changed" for me and those of like mind... again, lets just entertain the idea of an account-overview tab, completely seperate from the current system. Just without shortcuts and cheapened titles.
Since you keep agruing for your system isntead of that reasonable idea... I can only conclude you really only want the shortcuts and the cheap titles, and all your arguments are mere rethoric in hopes of attaining your goal.
Perhaps the similarity to politicians speeches is one of the things I dislike about them...
So do it. Noone is -forcing- you to fish. But the fishing is the price for the Master Angler title... you make your choice if the title is worth spending the effort, just like anybody else.If you like fishing, no one will forbid you to keep doing that. But some people don't.I'd much rather do something that involves actively playing and using my skills and maybe even socializing, than just clicking one button.
But few look closely enough to tell if that color is the special one, or just a similar non-special one. Same with the pets, I really don't bother remember which one are special, and which are not. Same with costumes, though as a roleplayer, I generally consider people in costume without a RP reason for the costume to be... something I would get censored mentioning here.Other players wouldn't spend less effort. They'd spend the same effort. And new players would never be able to get those titles fast. I mean you're talking about epeen decorations - pets, costumes, dyes are those and are much more obvious than titles. You don't see names until you target a player, you do see what color is his gear or what costume he's wearing or what pet he has.
But titles... those I can see, and they tell me what to think on their own. Thus they are more important to me, since I take notice...
As for effort - not so. If you have a "kill 500 critters" achievement, and you fill an average of 200 of it just by going through the mainstory... then you have to spend 300 critters worth extra effort beyond the mainstory en passant critter killings to gain the achievement. But if it was shared, you could have two more characters go through the mainstory, spending only the usual effort to get there, yet have it count towards the achievement as well... without having to spend the extra effort. Saving you 300 critters worth of extra effort. And if shared... you'd get even cheaper, as the whole thing would then have cost 300 extra critters worth of effort per character... with the three mentioned, it would be saving 900 critters worth of extra effort. A number which would only increase...
I can see why many people would want the shortcut, really I do.
I just don't agree with the idea that they should get it...
Personally I kinda learned decent english from computer games, since I started back in the days when german translations were not even a consideration... and the school english doesn't really help through computer RPGs or text adventures...Well, see, I don't ridicule you. I respect RPers tremendously and don't want to ruin your immersion. I'm trying to keep my game as immersive as possible too. And maybe I would try RP myself if I was good in English... Anyways, that is why I don't want you to lose anything and what I propose only ADDS things for others without taking anything away from you.
The main point about roleplaying however is to see your character different from yourself, a "role you play"... and once you get to that point of view, it makes perfect sense that the "mass murderer" achievement belongs to that particular character, and not you the player, despite you playing that character as murderer. And from there onwards... it gets important, since titles Have an in-character equivalent in "reputation", whereas costumes and dyes and all that is ICly just decoration... from an IC point of view, that special dye is just a color, but getting through some arena to the champion title, or being an expert fisherman, or a master explorer, well, that is something to brag about... as well as an indication to other roleplayers as to what type of character you play... what is this character known for, how might it mesh with my character idea, what points of reference might be used? (I might be less keen on titles if we had an actual "short backstory" tab for other people to inspect, really...)
Mostly I care little for things that do not affect me. But shared achievements would. That is why I keep trying to come up with alternatives that might cater to those who want an account overview, without them changing things for me in terms of achievement checkups, effort or title handling...The thing is, I respect RPers way of playing, why can't they respect the way others play? No one will force RPers to use any of that convenience stuff we are asking for. You pay money, we pay money. Why can't we all have fun especially when it's not interfering with the other group's fun?
Again, it might be a good idea to bury the "account wide achievement" discussion and start a new one, maybe "Account Achievement Overview" where we could try to think of something that may not have shortcuts, but would give those players who like to see their account total something to enjoy... (But I warn you, I totally will argue for multiple achievement countings and added rewards for those if we did! )
Well, it'd make sense that you'd have to go to prison for a character to get prison tatoos, yes?Good, keep pushing new stuff instead of limiting others No reason for those features to be character specific when dyes, costumes, pets already aren't. Just why add more pain in the ass to others? You still can choose not to use anything that wasn't unlocked on that toon.
Though as mentioned, since those could reasonably be gotten elsewhere as well... earned the hard way before the events that led to the character waking up in that coldharbour prison cell... I would not argue that particular point.
Well, one could reasonably compare some achievements as endurance test... the trick is, to make it fun for you regardless. And since noone forces you to get theose achievements right now... you can always do a little, make some steps, enjoy the road, and get there next year or whenever. Which incidentally leaves you more stuff to look forward to for the future...I'm not into that so can't correct you or confirm. Too much specifics at this point anyway. How does it matter what it is with cars? What we are playing is not a race or an endurance test, it's a game and is supposed to be fun.2 -
Runkorko✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheShadowScout wrote: »
That is actually not quite correct.Yeah the difference an in-game book is something a character find in that virtual world and reads. So he's a reader. Achievements tab? No. A player presses J and reads it. A character doesn't have access to it.
Yes, a character does not "have access to it" - but the tab represents character knowledge, a mechanical way to let the player see what the pretend person of the character would remember having done, or not having done. Just like the other journal tabs, which show which quests are still open (aka, the character remembering what someone somewhere asked them to take care of), which books have been read (aka, the character remembering what they read at some time), or leaderboards (aka, the character remembering whose names they heard spokem with praise in regards of some great deeds)
You may notice, ALL of those are character-specific information.
And now you say, the "achievement" tab among then should somehow be completely different???
Funny you should mention that one...The fact that one achievement says something like "apply a legendary enchant crafted by a character to a piece of armor crafted by that character" only proves that the game admits characters are tools/avatars and is addressing the player.
Nowaadays it reads: "Have a character apply a Legendary Enchantment that they created, to a Legendary piece of gear that they created"
It -used- to be that you could do this one no matter if you or an alt of yours created the gear, but the powers that be changed this to make it so that it can Only be done if the character you want to have it with was the one who crafted all the stuff.
I say that best reflects the opinion of the game developers on the whole discussuion...
Character-specific it is!
No matter how some people may try to use the wording of it to try and agrue otherwise...
True, and yet, completely irrelevant.Yes, the player clicks the button so that motif is unlocked.. right now it's on one character but it doesn't matter which one because all it took is to click a button, so it obviously should be fixed. When you see your friend on another character and you know his main is a crafter - you message him to craft something. WHen you message a character, you don't message a character. You message a player who plays that character and by doing that you accept that a player owns everything his characters own. So it's only logical to make it MORE convenient for the owner. Unless you and your friends are in 100% RP-mode all the time you're playing - you really have no right to say something about characters being separate things living their own life and having their own knowledge of motifs and skills and their own achievement and titles. All of that is owned by a player.
Just like you can own seperate cars, or seperate suits, and they will all be owned by you, yet still have their own specific features - just because you own things does not mean each and every one of them becomes the sum of your possessions in effect, yes?
And titles don't show up on the friends screen... they show up in-world, when you see someone. The friends screen and guild screens have a place for notes, just for those with crafter alts to convey the info...
You say convinience, yet ask for free shortcuts.
Want shortcuts?
Pay for them - that is why they sell stuff in the crown store.
(...makes me wonder if they will start selling dye unblocks someday... some of those nifty dyes take a fuckton of effort, and I think some people would gladly pay for some of them... profit to be made!)
It is not wrong, it is a developer choice.Yes, which is wrong, which is why you see this thread and will see more. And you haven't played good MMOs then, you should expand your world-view. (p.s. the only good mmo is wow).
You see it as wrong. And I don't doubt some agree with you.
I see it as right. And I don't doubt some agree with me.
And I don't play bad MMOs (p.s. - WoW is exactly the kind of thing I think about when I write that, for me its the shining example of what I do not want to play - good and bad too are all in the eye of the beholder after all)
I play MMOs that appeal to my roleplayer side, meaning from an nice rich background where I can nerd out with lore and stuff, where I can pretend to be my character and enjoy the immersion.
Not going to argue with that, just saying, its irrelevent. I mean, duh, who else but the player would read this? But - more importantly, what information does the text that is read convey? And as outlined above, it conveys character-specific information. All of the journal tab. Like said, it is a clumsy-by-technical-neccessity way to convey the pretend-memories of the pretent-person the character is, so the player can look it up.Obviously they haven't changed yet, that's why threads like this keep and will keep being created.
Yes, the wording does address who it's aimed at. It's aimed at the reader and it mentions the character in the 3rd person at least once, therefore it's addressed to the player.
I mean, DUH, it's the player playing the game, not the character. Obviously everything that's in interface is addressed to the player. Like, are you seriously gonna argue with that?
I argue against your right to "have fun" at my expense.But you just deny my right to have fun. That change wouldn't do anything to your gameplay. You would still have all the features you have now. On the other hand, I would have something I am missing now. So, now - you have everything and I don't. If they changed it - we'd both have everything. Positive-sum typa thing and should be implemented.
And having account-shared acheivements for shared titles and shared effort yould be changing things for me.
Basically, you keep coming back to that... you want a shortcut to get what others have to work hard for cheap, and to have it copied over all your characters by doing it once, thereby devaluing the experience for others, just because you want to reach your "Finished!" point sooner, and call that "your fun".
And I do not want that.
Like mentioned before... an -additional- account wide achievement tab on the character select screen for people who like to keep track of their "player progress" - no problem with that at all.
Noone is punishing or forcing people to do anything. I just want that the current value of the achievements is maintained instead of cheapened. meaning those who want them, should also spend the extra effort to get them, and those who think they shouldn't have to spend the effort, should have to do without the achievement/title.The core is you view. You want to punish players and force them to do things they shouldn't have to do. No, it wouldn't discourage you. You would still have everything! It would just add metaachievements tab or whatever you call it. Showing me what I got as a player.
And again, I have NO Problem whatsoever with arguing for an -additional- metachievement-tab to show you what you got as player - as long as it is -in addition- to the current system and not a replacement.
No, the core of our disagreement is that you say the law is a pole up the rear, and I disagree with your story, and instead say that the law is that you only gain ownership After you paid the full purchase price, not as soon as you have possession by picking the thing up.As I said before:
It's like if your country had a law that every citizen should take a pole deep in the ass every day. Someone would say there's no good reason for that and it people don't deserve that treatment. And you would say "All of them do. Now. You just want it to change". Duhh, of course I want that to change.
And in your opinion that law is fair and good, because SOME people enjoy it. That's the core of our disagreement.
As for the core of our disagreement... that has nothing to do at all with poles or bodily orfices no matter how much you may say this... but on how we see characters and their achievements.
I say characters are pretend-persons that exist within the pretent-world of the game, and thus should be taken individuially as their deeds are concerned.
You say characters are "nothing" and only the player counts, so all character deeds should be grouped for a player.
(of course, you are not even consistant in that, since you had to grant that character achioevements that might be dependent on skill or character type cannot be shared...)
Better. No, no no. Quicker. Easier. More Seductive...And yes, not everyone likes my point of view, but look at the link in my previous comment. Not everyone likes my point of view, but there is more people liking my point of view than people liking your point of view. So again, why shouldn't we make the change that will make game better for more players, while not changing anything in others' gameplay?
From my point of view, it is "better" to have achievements character specific, so players have more to work towards, even if it is the same several times. Sure, those who want to grind to completion may prefer it otherwise... so they can "complete the game" and scurrry off to the next game. The others... will do this achievement on that charatcer, and that achivevement on this character, and maybe leave it at that for now, hunting down more achievements later on when they feel like it... and in the end, play ESO for longer, more likely then not.
I believe, "making things better" in this regard would be the aforementioned adding of an account achievement overview screen - without changing the existing achievements.
That way, both kinds can have theirs - one to see and chase what the individual characters have done, and the new screen for those who want to see their "account progress".
I'd like that.
But... it would not come with any shortcuts, so I expect those who are unwilling to spend extra effort will again be unhappy...
But you want to spend 100% of the effort for "one title" and then have the title multiple times, once foe each character, when there are people out there who spent the effort multiple times as the system is set up for.Not at all dumb. It's the player who spent effort, not the character. But the main thing - nothing would change for you. For all you know, I DID get that title on the character you see me online with and using it. And well I did spent 100% of the effort so I deserve having that title. It's just more convenient for me and it doesn't ruin your immersion or doesn't change anything for you, so there's no reason not to change it.
Want it multiple times?
Do it multiple times.
Because the "100% effort" is only the price For One Character. One character=100%, eight characters=... you got that far in math, I would think yes?
And yet you keep using the same old "but... player!" argument to try and make a case that the effort should not count per character, but per account. And I keep disagreeing. Want it for all characters? Pay effort for all, several times, just like everybody else! Or do it once, and then fuggedaboudit for your alts. Your choice.
While I like to RP, I also try to keep a balance between IC and OoC.And as I said, unless you're in RP mode 100% of the time and don't acknowledge players behind characters in-game, you shouldn't push this point of view that aggressively. You then are not consistent and are being a hypocrite: accept the reality of having players when it's convenient for you, don't let others do that just because you don't want that option for yourself.
And that is the point.
Balance between the two.
Not throwing away All the character specific things just because there also exist an OoC player behind all of them.
Like I mentioned before... ZOS gives their players a LOT of account wide stuff, and will soon give even more. More then any other of the half-dozend MMORPG games I played. So of course I'll argue against anyone saying there should be even more account wide stuff, be it those asking for account wide riding training, account wide crafting research, or account wide achievements.
Actually... I would think everything they do and have belongs to zenimax online systems - usually for MMO providers, there is a passus along those lines in their terms of service...Yes, everything they do and have belongs to a player, not them. No matter if Zeus is using a white bull or golden rain as an avatar at the moment. He's still the God of Thunder and the King of Gods. He has all his titles no matter which avatar he's using right now. And Perseus is the son of Zeus, not the son of golden rain.
And I am sorry that you still could not grasp the difference between the virtual title and the real one.
Yes, Zeus is king of gods no matter his form.
That is -his- title.
Just like a player who is a doctor is a doctor no matter what character they play.
Because that would be -their- title.
But the achievement titles are virtual in-game pretend-titles, for the in-game pretend-persons of the character. Just like the pretend-person of a movie character have their pretent-titles in the movie, which Do Not carry over to the actors playing them.
To keep with the Zeus thing... yes, Zeus is "King of Gods" in the greek mythology and any story based on it, but Sean Bean who played Zeus is not, and Eddard Stark who also was played by Sean Bean is not either.
Get it now?
While all additions are technically a "change" in the whole, there is a difference between adding something without changing what is there, and changing what is already there.That is exactly what I mean by changes. Adding something is a change if it wasn't there before. It's semantics. I said many times that I don't want to for zos to take your ability to see achievements on separate toons from you. Why would I want that? Unlike you, I acknowledge your right to have fun.
I have no issue with adding something.
I have issues with changing something that is there to my deteriment.
Quite possibly the rumours are true, I could not say.Exactly, those rumors seem be to true lol. But no, that's a bad analogy. I don't ask to unlock all the new achievements that come out with new DLCs. We'd still have to complete them, just like you had to pass tests every year.
But you do seem to ask that you have to cpmplete the achievements only once, and then benefit from their one completion on multiple characters.
And I seem to be disagreeing with that notion, so...
Yet they still complete it With That Character, and thus get the title for it floating above the head Of That Character.A person can complete some things with any character, whereas similar character can or can not complete something depending on who's playing them. So yeah, it demonstrates how person>character.
If they completel something without character, or something that needs multiple characters, then I would see the title being acount wide. There could be titles like that, you know... there aren't, but there could.
I sometimes find it fun to do the same things with different charaters sometime, and in those instances when I don't, I just let my alts do without the title/achievement.Why? Why should I do that? That's inconvenient and not fun. I've done it once, I want to have fun and do something new all the time.
Who is stopping you from doing the same?
What is stopping you from doing new stuff until you run out of new stuff to do?
Why must all things being whittled down to your level just so you can "have fun" to the disappointment of everyone else except the others from the "gimme crowd" who want everything handed to them quick and easy?
That is your opinion.Achievements won't be unlocked for all the characters. Only rewards will be, like most of them already are: dyes, costumes, pets. Titles are long overdue to join that list.
Mine differs.
I happen to think that in the light of how much already got turned account wide, titles -especially- should remain character specific. You could not help but agree for the ones where differences in character may affect the outcome, remember? I just say, equal rights for all titles, even the ones that "could be done with any character" - just do them with the character you want them for, and not do them for the characters you don't care enough for to make the effort...
Wrong. Everything is a fiction here, but that does not make it a lie - a lie is a fiction claiming to be truth, a fiction that makes no such claims is a story instead.It's a computer game in a fantasy world. everything is a lie here.
Personally I think those who need to lie to "enjoy" something are one of the things that makes this world worse then it is. Thus I will keep arguing agaisnt that kind of thing when I encounter it. You may find your enjoyment in defrauding others, but do not expect me to agree with that sort of thing.Don't play it if the truth is so important. Then again, you will have an option not to lie. Don't tell other players how to enjoy the game. They are paying for it just like you do.
Both are merely marks on a computer file, as you outlined before, are they not?All the other things are just a dumb design promoting grind and the waste of time. Once again, emperor is one thing, fishing or trophies - is something else.
What makes the marks on the file different is how easy or hard they werre to get.
And I keep arguing against changing the difficulty from what people had to work for...
...on That single character...Why? Why should that be the case? It's the player who earned it.
Just like you spend effort to paint one picture, does not mean all your other empty canvasses are now also painted pictures.
Et cetera...
...and if you burn the picture you just painted, does that mean you did not spend the effort? No. But the picture is still gone... why should it work different with characters then?Just because you wouldn't do it you want to refuse others to have fun? When I'm on my alt it's still me. Why can I use a pet unlocked by the achievement, dyes, costumes , but not titles? That makes no sense. It's just another reward.
Now what if I delete that character, because I want to play another race or class with the same name or have a different name? Does it mean that I didn't spend effort and didn't earn the reward? No it doesn't.
I see the title as the "this character was there" mark, and the costume as mere bonus, which as such can be account wide, just like the crown store purchases only mean that someone had money.Is Maelstrom baron costume is the "The costume That character earned in vMA"? It is shared though. Don't see many players having issue with that or with stuff from imperial city sewers. No, I didn't say that cape would be what you said, it would be the cape owned by bela lugosi.
Yes, those things used to be character specific in times of old, and are now account wide ever since the crown store.
Which is one of the things I mean when I say, the game has more then enough account wide stuff already, it doesn't need -everything- account wide...
Especially when it would devalue the titles. Right now they mean something -because- they take the extra effort. I for one prefer to see at least something remain that way instead of all of it handed out to the ones who would rather cry about how they "deserve" something then spend the extra effort...
Then yould you kindly refrain from making absolute statements contrary to the state of affairs in ESO?Lol are you having troubles with simple logic? Of course it didn't change already, that's why this thread is created.
And I think it IS cool to see what I complete With That Character.We see no good reason for that not to be change when the game and most players already acknowledge that it's the players not characters who complete things. It's only displayed for one character and it's not cool. That's the whole point.
And I think it IS cool that some things take extra effort to complete, and are not handed to everyone and their granny through effort shared across their multiple characters.
And I think it IS cool that only those characters who actually achieve some title-worthy thing may have that title float above their heads as silend bragging.
Not that I expect everyone to agree... just saying, there is the other side too.
I wouldn't mind a account overview... I probably would not care much for it, but I would not mind it either, and adding that would seem the optimal way to deal with the issue. (But since it wouldn't come with shortcuts... I guess you will argue agains tthat again, huh?)
It could, but it should not, in my opinion.No, their ownership can and should exist through their account which can have more than 1 character. Thus the title can be player specifc, just like mounts, costumes, pets etc.
It is very similar, actually - except that in the movies, there is a fixed script for everyone, and in the games, half of it is up to the player to fill in (which of course requires a somewhat more loose and better fleshed out work on the other side as well, since the game world has to be prepared to react to whatever the player may choose to put into their characters sript).You are talking about scripted movies where actors don't control anything, they just play roles to show how things happened in the book or RL or whatever. It's not similar to computer games in any way.
They are not your titles. They are your characters titles.Oh you do? And I hate that I can't use my titles or show off my account-wide unique-achievement score or see where I'm at progress-wise when I'm on my alt.
Noone can show off "their" titles in game... well... not unless they have them added to their account name I guess, but since everyone could call themseves "doctor" or "president" in their account names these wouldn't be worth much...
I concede the point for checking an account wide achievement score. That one should be an option. As long as it does not replace the character-specific achievement score, but is seperate from it instead.
Actually no. I would say, "sure, lets keep the RNG system, I may not really like it because my luck tends to be of the rotten flavor, but I can work with things like that, more or less..." and have my fun regardless (which is what I am doing).Yes, if I started saying "No, we should keep RNG system because I am okay with that and I got all I need or I don't need anything" you would say it's a dumb argument and I'm not letting other people have fun. Well, that's what you're saying about account achievements and sharing titles.
Agreed, having fun is the main thing.And no, the purpose of the game is not to just waste time. The purpose is to spend time having fun! Otherwise, if you were right people wouldn't care what to play and there would be no need in more than 1 game whichever was created first.
The trouble is when someone says they can only have fun if things are done -exactly like they want it- to the deteriment of other people having fun. Shared titles would lessen my fun. Account wide achivements would lessen my fun.
Noone is "forced" to grind. Some fools choose to. Others just play the game. And sometimes do without this or that because they'd rather have fun then grind for it.People would spend extra money if they have time for that. When they are forced to grind they are like "F U I won't give you any money if you force me to do this". That's why people buy new DLC - because it's NEW content that they can do. They pay to have fun and experience/see new things.
And yeah, DLC are nifty because new content. Its always better to have something new to go for then repeating old stuff... (which is why cadwells will soon be optional after all). But hey, a great many achievements keep... or do all the new critters not count for the critter killer achievements? I have no problem keeping some to progress towards in DLCs to come instead of having them all handed to me now through the account-shared effort you seem to be arguing for...
But its player spending effort On A Character.Of course I've done everything with that character. But it was ME. In most cases it could be ANY character and that has to be acknowledged. That's it's A PLAYER spending effort, not a character.
Thus the effect of the effort ought to stay on that character.
Just like you spend effort painting a empty canvas with a nice painting, that effort stays on the canvas, it does not make all the different canvasses you might own or buy already painted with different scenes as well jjst because you "spent the effort" once.
Why should it for different characters then? Each is their own work of art after all (quality may depend on player skill)
Oh? No reason? By that argument, everyone would start with a fully developed endgame character because there "is no reason to force players to work more for something"? Yes, even those things that don't change game balance or combat strength - some of us find them important nonetheless. But the very idea of the achievements is to have something those people who care can spend time and have fun working towards on their characters. Often, working towards different ones on different characters.But thankfully it's not real life and there's no good reason to force players to work more for something that doesn't change game balance and doesn't change their combat strength.
Face it, if you really think what you post, if you really cannot be happy unless you get it all handed to you, then this may be the wrong game for you.
You may be happier with games that have only premade characters, and total your deeds by player. I am certain there are games like that. I just don't usually play most of them. Why do you insist ESO would be better if they rebuilt it to be more like those other games then?
But then again, noone is forcing anyone to do anything here.And there's no reason to force him to do that more than once. And no, it's not how it sounds, more like "Look, I have no life I spent hours clicking a mouse button and it wasn't fun unlike other content that grants other achievements". No reason to force him to do something boring again. It's counter-productive and is bad for him.
You don't want to spend those hours clicking a button? Fine! Not like you -need- the achievement for anything, right?
You feel you need the achievement for something? Fine! Spend the hours clicking.
It is a Choice!
Just like doing the clicking multiple times would be.
It is a design. Good or bad is in the eye of the beholder, or in this case, player.And now the balance is skewed towards time spent. Some achievements take months and years to get. It's absolutely unreasonable to make players go through this again. And it does limit achievement hunters a lot - for example, we can't really commit to playing any other characters than our main, because playing them means we aren't progressing and aren't working towards any new achievements. And if, say, we'd complete something on an alt that's not completed by main - then we wouldn't have those scores summed up anywhere. We'd still have to work for it on the main once again just so that he has a total score with that achievement included. This is a bad design. Clearly L2D(esign) issue.
You say bad. I say good. We might as well agree to disagree...
And I get your point... a point that could be migrated by adding the account achievement overview. Where every achievement acquired on a character could be noted and totalled... with a grand score total as well. Then suddenly doing an achievement twice, thrice or more times becomes valuable, since it all adds to the grand score, thus making your alting more fun again. There even could be special unlocks for multiples... make thew achievement once, get a dye as of now, make it twice, get something else, a special hair dye or warpaint unlock for example... make it four times, maybe even get a pet or mount... like I outlined before.
(...but the gimme crowd would hate that, since it would not be shortcuts, just more rewards for those who do the extra effort - how about you, hate it or find it appealing?)
That is how you want it.How? Vice versa it would mean that you can play alts and not waste time and contribute to your total score. Once again, you would not have achievements counted on every toon, you'd just have total score, but you'd still see certain achievements as incomplete if they were only completed on other toons.
I would want both the individual scores and achievements as they are now, and maybe an added account total.
Personally I would have been happier with a "realistic" dye system where all dyes were made by alchemists, and you'd unlock them according to finding the ingredients or buying them from a vendor with gold... for a purely cosmetic dye system, not tied to achievements at all. Not that this ship hasn't sailed ans sunk a long time ago...Well perfect, if you admit dyes or titles are simply cosmetic and don't do anything, then why not unlock titles as well as dyes? After all, I don't even see most names and their titles, but I do see if a person has that green dye from SO for example when he clearly couldn't complete it with an alt. So how come you have no issue with that? That is much more obvious than titles.
But that is one of the reasons I care little about dyes, since "realistically" they would not be tied to a characters deeds in any case, and thus are a non-issue in the matter.
The other is, I can hardly remember which hue of what color was the "special" one, so I seldom notice those. A title on the other hand... that is different, since those kinda say rather explicitely what was done...
They are the most successful... for being the first, filling a market. I doubt making a game "just like WoW" would be that good a idea, since I'd reckon many players who want things WoW style would go play the original... whereas other games may find their own little niche in doing things different then WoW for those players who want to play a different game.Of course it would be. WOW is and always has been the most successful MMORPG. In fact, WOTLK was a peak of the population, that's when a lot people were attracted to the game and came to play it. And yes, you got it correctly - that is EXACTLY the addon that introduced the account-wide achievement system.
Personally, the more I keep hearing about WoW, the less I felt inclined to ever play it... so you may be barking up the wrong tree here.
You think it should. I think otherwise.If it doesn't yet, it absolutely should. That's why threads like that keep being created. That's why they keep getting requests like that and it won't stop until something changes.
And I don't doubt we'll keep getting threads like this - there are always people asking for handouts and shortcuts after all. Doesn't mean they have a valid point though, nor that their ideas would benefit the game in the long run...
Exactly. And if it was technically impossible to take two books, maybe because the store had an "only one book for signing" policy to prevent that ond granny to cart her whole library there and holding up the line, you'd have to go twice, wouldn't you? Or decide that one signed book is enough for you.Duh, I will take two books. Here I can't take 2 characters only because it's technically impossible.
Same choice you have in the game...
EXACTLY!Obviously some achievements don't require a certain character, they require any character just because it's the game. Those titles should be shared.
Then again, being signed is not an achievement or a title. It's the physical change of appearance. It's like getting a tattoo. When I create a toon and he gets a tattoo, it doesn't copy over other toons
And gaining a title is also a change - though more of a social one then a physical one. Other people can get the same title, but each has to attain it on their own. Some titles may come through skill, some through birth, others through being in the right place at the right time. Some titles are important, others, less so.
Actually it doesn't - you just create another toon with the same tatoo. The tatoo is not automatically selected in chargen after all, you have to do it by hand, right?(in my case it does. I'm forced to create toons of more or less the same appearance because I can't experience everything with just one toon like in TES games).
Those are the trial titles. The Master Angler title and similar? Totally just showing how much effort you were willing to spend on that character...BS. It's not how much effort I spend on a character. It's look how good of a player I am, how much dps/hps I can do and how good my skill is that I can complete this and that trials.
That is why I only say it -may- mean that in WoW, because I cannot speak for that game.You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and should feel bad. In WoW titles aren't shared, there's a combined achievement score though. It's not an opinion. It's a fact - characters don't spend effort and don't earn achievements/titles. Players do. Repeating it won't make it true, it's already true, repeating it gives other a chance to understand it.
But the fact does not change that some games may achievement-count the effort spent for the player who spent the effort, and other games count the effort spent for the character it was spent on.
Which means your notion that your way is the only way is invalid. And just repeating it as absolute statement in denial of the other possibilities does not make the other point of view disappear...
Its also not the canvas who makes the painting, and yet once the painter has painted it, the effort spent sticks to the canvas, and does not copy over to all other canvasses (or sticks) the painter (or player) may own.And I have no clue why you keep saying that if it makes no sense. It's not the stick spending effort and earning the reward in the end. It's the player.
And yet, effort spent on your tool sticks to the tool and not to the person.No it's based on who spent effort and earned the reward. And it's the player, not the character. The character is just a tool. You can throw it away but if you're a person who did that and that, you are still that person with another tool.
Sharpen one knife, and that knife will be sharp, yet your others won't. You can throw it away and pick up another, but the other won't be sharper for your effort to sharpen the first knife, yes?
Paint one knife with pretty pictures, and that knife will be pretty (depending on your skill in paining), yet your others won't
Have one knife signed by a famous smith, and only that knife is signed, yet your others won't be.
Call one knife a special name, and that name too sticks to this knife... (well, most knives are not worth special names, but... you get the point, I hope?)
Yes. Because those I can see as mere decoration - immersion wise, pets can be gotten from many a source, clothes from every tailor, and so forth, yet a title is a sign of that characters reputation. Even if its all make believe.Ahaha so you have no issues that he can use pets, costumes etc unlocked by v16, but not a title?
You keep seeing all as "rewards" and I keep making a distinction between OoC stuff (like costumes, pets, dyes, that fluff-wise would not drop from the sky upon attaining some achievement, but would be bought from traders, just the powers that be choose this out of character mechanic to parcel them out instead) and IC stuff (like titles, which fluff-wise could only be earned for a character by that character doing the thing that gains them the title - even if its all virtual). And yet you yourself make a distinction between skill based titles and those where the character used may not matter... contradicting yourself? Not the best way to go about for an argument...Ok equal rules? Cool. So if some rewards are shared, then others should be shared too. Costumes, dyes, pets are already shared. If you are for equal rules - titles should be shared too. If you're against that - you aren't for equal rules. Or nothing should be shared. How do you think which one would be more popular? Create a poll and check yourself lol.
Oh, it would. You keep saying that, yet you contradict yourself when you mention how some titles take too much effort to go for and your "shared effort" idea as way tro make it easier.It would be convenient for more than 50% of players for all we know according to multiple polls on forums. And for others nothing would change. So yeah, it only adds to enjoyment of some without lessening anything.
Title's value would not be lessened too of course. Still, only that player would be able to use it and he still would have spend the same amount of effort.
The point is, if the current effort currently buys the title for One character, then IF there was a shared system, the effort to buy the same title for All characters would logically have to be much greater, yes?
As for a solution where really "nothing changed" for me and those of like mind... again, lets just entertain the idea of an account-overview tab, completely seperate from the current system. Just without shortcuts and cheapened titles.
Since you keep agruing for your system isntead of that reasonable idea... I can only conclude you really only want the shortcuts and the cheap titles, and all your arguments are mere rethoric in hopes of attaining your goal.
Perhaps the similarity to politicians speeches is one of the things I dislike about them...
So do it. Noone is -forcing- you to fish. But the fishing is the price for the Master Angler title... you make your choice if the title is worth spending the effort, just like anybody else.If you like fishing, no one will forbid you to keep doing that. But some people don't.I'd much rather do something that involves actively playing and using my skills and maybe even socializing, than just clicking one button.
But few look closely enough to tell if that color is the special one, or just a similar non-special one. Same with the pets, I really don't bother remember which one are special, and which are not. Same with costumes, though as a roleplayer, I generally consider people in costume without a RP reason for the costume to be... something I would get censored mentioning here.Other players wouldn't spend less effort. They'd spend the same effort. And new players would never be able to get those titles fast. I mean you're talking about epeen decorations - pets, costumes, dyes are those and are much more obvious than titles. You don't see names until you target a player, you do see what color is his gear or what costume he's wearing or what pet he has.
But titles... those I can see, and they tell me what to think on their own. Thus they are more important to me, since I take notice...
As for effort - not so. If you have a "kill 500 critters" achievement, and you fill an average of 200 of it just by going through the mainstory... then you have to spend 300 critters worth extra effort beyond the mainstory en passant critter killings to gain the achievement. But if it was shared, you could have two more characters go through the mainstory, spending only the usual effort to get there, yet have it count towards the achievement as well... without having to spend the extra effort. Saving you 300 critters worth of extra effort. And if shared... you'd get even cheaper, as the whole thing would then have cost 300 extra critters worth of effort per character... with the three mentioned, it would be saving 900 critters worth of extra effort. A number which would only increase...
I can see why many people would want the shortcut, really I do.
I just don't agree with the idea that they should get it...
Personally I kinda learned decent english from computer games, since I started back in the days when german translations were not even a consideration... and the school english doesn't really help through computer RPGs or text adventures...Well, see, I don't ridicule you. I respect RPers tremendously and don't want to ruin your immersion. I'm trying to keep my game as immersive as possible too. And maybe I would try RP myself if I was good in English... Anyways, that is why I don't want you to lose anything and what I propose only ADDS things for others without taking anything away from you.
The main point about roleplaying however is to see your character different from yourself, a "role you play"... and once you get to that point of view, it makes perfect sense that the "mass murderer" achievement belongs to that particular character, and not you the player, despite you playing that character as murderer. And from there onwards... it gets important, since titles Have an in-character equivalent in "reputation", whereas costumes and dyes and all that is ICly just decoration... from an IC point of view, that special dye is just a color, but getting through some arena to the champion title, or being an expert fisherman, or a master explorer, well, that is something to brag about... as well as an indication to other roleplayers as to what type of character you play... what is this character known for, how might it mesh with my character idea, what points of reference might be used? (I might be less keen on titles if we had an actual "short backstory" tab for other people to inspect, really...)
Mostly I care little for things that do not affect me. But shared achievements would. That is why I keep trying to come up with alternatives that might cater to those who want an account overview, without them changing things for me in terms of achievement checkups, effort or title handling...The thing is, I respect RPers way of playing, why can't they respect the way others play? No one will force RPers to use any of that convenience stuff we are asking for. You pay money, we pay money. Why can't we all have fun especially when it's not interfering with the other group's fun?
Again, it might be a good idea to bury the "account wide achievement" discussion and start a new one, maybe "Account Achievement Overview" where we could try to think of something that may not have shortcuts, but would give those players who like to see their account total something to enjoy... (But I warn you, I totally will argue for multiple achievement countings and added rewards for those if we did! )
Well, it'd make sense that you'd have to go to prison for a character to get prison tatoos, yes?Good, keep pushing new stuff instead of limiting others No reason for those features to be character specific when dyes, costumes, pets already aren't. Just why add more pain in the ass to others? You still can choose not to use anything that wasn't unlocked on that toon.
Though as mentioned, since those could reasonably be gotten elsewhere as well... earned the hard way before the events that led to the character waking up in that coldharbour prison cell... I would not argue that particular point.
Well, one could reasonably compare some achievements as endurance test... the trick is, to make it fun for you regardless. And since noone forces you to get theose achievements right now... you can always do a little, make some steps, enjoy the road, and get there next year or whenever. Which incidentally leaves you more stuff to look forward to for the future...I'm not into that so can't correct you or confirm. Too much specifics at this point anyway. How does it matter what it is with cars? What we are playing is not a race or an endurance test, it's a game and is supposed to be fun.
To much words for nothing. WoW has the best template. The game is great, the comunity is ***. If ZoS get some good ideas from WoW and other decent MMO`s no one will judge them. To make the entire DLC favoring ONE class (because dark cloack is indispensable in most cases and without her you must restart the damn heist again and again if you want best results, is...let's call it unreasonable /npc patrol position is random/every time you enter heist area/ and invis potion cooldowns is to high to compensate.The Dark Brotherhood DLC will be no diferent. I dont want easy mod when i try to get the achievments on my main (DK) but i dont want to s..k d...k and lose ALOT of time and strugle for no reason just because i`m not NB or because RNG place all patrols in shity position. The solution - give PVE cloack to all. You cant force ppl to make specific class because their one is not the right choise for content they paid money .... If you make smth give all participating equal positions or DONT MAKE IT AT ALL! I Add PVE dark cloack equivalent in one of the skill treees. TG, LEGERDEMAIN or DB assasination one.Edited by Runkorko on May 22, 2016 5:23PM1 -
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✭TheShadowScout wrote: »That is actually not quite correct.
Yes, a character does not "have access to it" - but the tab represents character knowledge, a mechanical way to let the player see what the pretend person of the character would remember having done, or not having done. Just like the other journal tabs, which show which quests are still open (aka, the character remembering what someone somewhere asked them to take care of), which books have been read (aka, the character remembering what they read at some time), or leaderboards (aka, the character remembering whose names they heard spokem with praise in regards of some great deeds)
You may notice, ALL of those are character-specific information.
And now you say, the "achievement" tab among then should somehow be completely different???
Only the journal is something a "character" knows. Leaderboards have no analogue in game, and no one's names are spoken by NPCs or written anywhere. It's purely for players to compare their score. In game - trials are not sports or competition, there are no scores and no ranking. This is completely player interface. The information is character specific because trials directly demand skills. You have to be good with a certain class/build to get a good score.
Achievement tab is not different - it already addresses the player.TheShadowScout wrote: »Funny you should mention that one...
Nowaadays it reads: "Have a character apply a Legendary Enchantment that they created, to a Legendary piece of gear that they created"
It -used- to be that you could do this one no matter if you or an alt of yours created the gear, but the powers that be changed this to make it so that it can Only be done if the character you want to have it with was the one who crafted all the stuff.
I say that best reflects the opinion of the game developers on the whole discussuion...
Character-specific it is!
No matter how some people may try to use the wording of it to try and agrue otherwise...
It does reflect their opinion - it addresses the player directly in the imperative mood mentioning the character in the 3rd person.
If character-specific this one is. Player-specific everything else that doesn't mention a character is.
The point is - achievement tab addresses players and it's proven. It's not something characters "know", because they don't know they are characters if you RP and stuff.TheShadowScout wrote: »True, and yet, completely irrelevant.
Just like you can own seperate cars, or seperate suits, and they will all be owned by you, yet still have their own specific features - just because you own things does not mean each and every one of them becomes the sum of your possessions in effect, yes?
And titles don't show up on the friends screen... they show up in-world, when you see someone. The friends screen and guild screens have a place for notes, just for those with crafter alts to convey the info...
You say convinience, yet ask for free shortcuts.
Want shortcuts?
Pay for them - that is why they sell stuff in the crown store.
(...makes me wonder if they will start selling dye unblocks someday... some of those nifty dyes take a fuckton of effort, and I think some people would gladly pay for some of them... profit to be made!)
Not at all irrelevant. Yes, there are separate cars and suits with their own specific features. Characters have their features too - class,race,gear, appearance. Titles belong to a player and shouldn't be one of those features unless it matters which character was used. Once again, if you acknowledge players behind characters - you have no right to keep pretending there's something character-specific. Especially since there's no good reason to have it that way.TheShadowScout wrote: »It is not wrong, it is a developer choice.
You see it as wrong. And I don't doubt some agree with you.
I see it as right. And I don't doubt some agree with me.
And I don't play bad MMOs (p.s. - WoW is exactly the kind of thing I think about when I write that, for me its the shining example of what I do not want to play - good and bad too are all in the eye of the beholder after all)
I play MMOs that appeal to my roleplayer side, meaning from an nice rich background where I can nerd out with lore and stuff, where I can pretend to be my character and enjoy the immersion.
Where's the contradiction? It's a wrong developer's choice then. Yeah so why can you have it your way but we can't have it our way? PLay wow. If you want rich lore and stuff - there's NO OTHER GAME as good. The only game that comes close is ESO (one of the reasons I play it. Not fun playing in a noname world I don't care about).
As shown above, it doesn't. Not the all that tab. Just the journal with quests. Definitely not leaderboards with scores, definitely not the achievement tab. As in, it is character-specific, because we have more than 1 class and therefore are forced to play more than 1 toon to experience every playstyle , but it's not something relevant to what a character knows.TheShadowScout wrote: »Not going to argue with that, just saying, its irrelevent. I mean, duh, who else but the player would read this? But - more importantly, what information does the text that is read convey? And as outlined above, it conveys character-specific information. All of the journal tab. Like said, it is a clumsy-by-technical-neccessity way to convey the pretend-memories of the pretent-person the character is, so the player can look it up.But you just deny my right to have fun. That change wouldn't do anything to your gameplay. You would still have all the features you have now. On the other hand, I would have something I am missing now. So, now - you have everything and I don't. If they changed it - we'd both have everything. Positive-sum typa thing and should be implemented.TheShadowScout wrote: »I argue against your right to "have fun" at my expense.
And having account-shared acheivements for shared titles and shared effort yould be changing things for me.
Basically, you keep coming back to that... you want a shortcut to get what others have to work hard for cheap, and to have it copied over all your characters by doing it once, thereby devaluing the experience for others, just because you want to reach your "Finished!" point sooner, and call that "your fun".
And I do not want that.
Like mentioned before... an -additional- account wide achievement tab on the character select screen for people who like to keep track of their "player progress" - no problem with that at all.
yes, but it's not at your expense. You aren't losing anything. People got shortcut when they expanded undaunted skill line after some of us got all the dungeons achievements - we got punished for that, they maxed the line faster. That was unfair and affected the balance directly. They let huge bearded nords run around in wedding and other dresses + this new climber costume - that directly ruined immersion. Go fight with that. Did you even say anything about that when it was happening? Are you asking for that be fixed now? no. Because it's fun for you to fight in a wedding dress at the expense of my immersion.
Now my fun wouldn't take away from you at all. You'd still keep everything, so nothing is at your "expense".TheShadowScout wrote: »Noone is punishing or forcing people to do anything. I just want that the current value of the achievements is maintained instead of cheapened. meaning those who want them, should also spend the extra effort to get them, and those who think they shouldn't have to spend the effort, should have to do without the achievement/title.
And again, I have NO Problem whatsoever with arguing for an -additional- metachievement-tab to show you what you got as player - as long as it is -in addition- to the current system and not a replacement..
Yes, and you are supporting it. Every single achievement oriented player is forced to either play one toon or grind achievements again if he wants to play another toon. Because a player like that feels like he isn't progressing/wasting his time until he reaches his old achievement score. They still have to do effort and they earn this title, not the character.
It was said 100 times it would be an addition. Simply showing total score removes the feeling that the time playing with the alt is wasted.
If you want the current value of something to be maintained so that whoever got it in severe conditions doesn't feel whatever he got is not cheapened - go argue with them raising the drop rate of sets in ICP, WGT and weapons in vMA.
The truth is, no one cares about that. Things become cheaper all the time. That's how market works. And zos will change the current system if more players like it.
So zos, once again - check out that link posted above. More players want it than the current system.TheShadowScout wrote: »No, the core of our disagreement is that you say the law is a pole up the rear, and I disagree with your story, and instead say that the law is that you only gain ownership After you paid the full purchase price, not as soon as you have possession by picking the thing up.
As for the core of our disagreement... that has nothing to do at all with poles or bodily orfices no matter how much you may say this... but on how we see characters and their achievements.
I say characters are pretend-persons that exist within the pretent-world of the game, and thus should be taken individuially as their deeds are concerned.
You say characters are "nothing" and only the player counts, so all character deeds should be grouped for a player.
(of course, you are not even consistant in that, since you had to grant that character achioevements that might be dependent on skill or character type cannot be shared...)
I paid full purchase price when I bought a game and paid sub/bought DLCs. Now being forced to do something that's not fun for my money is exactly that - a pole up the rear. It's painful and I don't want to do it, but you support that law. I say - if you enjoy it, then just put it up the rear all you want, just don't force others do it.
If you want to see characters as pretend-persons - do so. Don't force me to do so if that means it limits the game for me. I'd gladly do so, but I can't switch between classes/races so I can't experience the game as a pretend-person like in skyrim. I have to log in and out and switch between alts for bank space etc, i.e. all the time I am reminded it's a game played by a player rather than a pretend-world with pretend-people. And in that case, make it convenient and acknowledge the player.
And yes, I am consistent. Some titles require a player to know how to play a particular class. So in this case getting the same title again is like getting a different title, because you had to use completely different skill set and play style to get it.
You are not obligated to use any shortcuts if you don't want to. Stop ruining it for others. Not everyone wans to spend 800% of effort for 1 title. You can do it if you want, I don't ask to take that away from you. Why wouldn't you want others to play how they want? Not everyone wants to just be in game instead of doing something fun => wanting to come again=>spend more money and there's more players => better for the game.TheShadowScout wrote: »Better. No, no no. Quicker. Easier. More Seductive...
From my point of view, it is "better" to have achievements character specific, so players have more to work towards, even if it is the same several times. Sure, those who want to grind to completion may prefer it otherwise... so they can "complete the game" and scurrry off to the next game. The others... will do this achievement on that charatcer, and that achivevement on this character, and maybe leave it at that for now, hunting down more achievements later on when they feel like it... and in the end, play ESO for longer, more likely then not.
I believe, "making things better" in this regard would be the aforementioned adding of an account achievement overview screen - without changing the existing achievements.
That way, both kinds can have theirs - one to see and chase what the individual characters have done, and the new screen for those who want to see their "account progress".
I'd like that.
But... it would not come with any shortcuts, so I expect those who are unwilling to spend extra effort will again be unhappy...TheShadowScout wrote: »But you want to spend 100% of the effort for "one title" and then have the title multiple times, once foe each character, when there are people out there who spent the effort multiple times as the system is set up for.
Want it multiple times?
Do it multiple times.
Because the "100% effort" is only the price For One Character. One character=100%, eight characters=... you got that far in math, I would think yes?
And yet you keep using the same old "but... player!" argument to try and make a case that the effort should not count per character, but per account. And I keep disagreeing. Want it for all characters? Pay effort for all, several times, just like everybody else! Or do it once, and then fuggedaboudit for your alts. Your choice.
.
Nah, it's you who say that I need to spend effort multiple times for one title. It's a player who spends the effort, not the character, so it's the player who owns the title and does whatever he wants with it. You can distribute your gear however you want between characters, you can use pets, costumes etc. No reason for titles to be different. You want us to spend 800% of the effort for the title instead of 100%. As for the last sentence, please, show me that thread you created where you said we should pay multiple times for costumes, mounts and pets.
Once again, it's more convenient for me to use the title that I earned how I like. Doesn't do anything with your immersion or play style. So who are you to not let me? Bet you didn't say anything when casuals could level undaunted skill line with achievements faster than players who got those achievements faster than the line was expanded. No one cares nor should they that somebody already spent more effort than was needed. Good for them then, they got their reward - they could show titles on more than 1 toon when others couldn't, now that has to become the past.. Shouldn't hold many players back just because of the few.
And my choice? ahaha so you are entitled to having your choice with favorable option but you exclude the option I want from the choice because you don't want it? That wouldn't change anything for you if that option was added.
No, you're arguing because you personally don't care. It's not balance, it's hypocrisy. You only support things that are beneficial to you personally,not the players overall. Whatever account-wide stuff we've had since release was just due to them not putting as much work. THey didn't want to maintain the database with separate banks and 40 potential guild slots. Again, having something account-wide already doesn't mean there shouldn't be more.TheShadowScout wrote: »While I like to RP, I also try to keep a balance between IC and OoC.
And that is the point.
Balance between the two.
Not throwing away All the character specific things just because there also exist an OoC player behind all of them.
Like I mentioned before... ZOS gives their players a LOT of account wide stuff, and will soon give even more. More then any other of the half-dozend MMORPG games I played. So of course I'll argue against anyone saying there should be even more account wide stuff, be it those asking for account wide riding training, account wide crafting research, or account wide achievements.
I'm not talking about the legal side of this. It doesn't matter who actually owns it. ZOS don't play your character, you do.TheShadowScout wrote: »Actually... I would think everything they do and have belongs to zenimax online systems - usually for MMO providers, there is a passus along those lines in their terms of service...
And I am sorry that you still could not grasp the difference between the virtual title and the real one.
Yes, Zeus is king of gods no matter his form.
That is -his- title.
Just like a player who is a doctor is a doctor no matter what character they play.
Because that would be -their- title.
But the achievement titles are virtual in-game pretend-titles, for the in-game pretend-persons of the character. Just like the pretend-person of a movie character have their pretent-titles in the movie, which Do Not carry over to the actors playing them.
To keep with the Zeus thing... yes, Zeus is "King of Gods" in the greek mythology and any story based on it, but Sean Bean who played Zeus is not, and Eddard Stark who also was played by Sean Bean is not either.
Get it now?
Once again, movies have nothing to do with it. In movies Sean Bean doesn't control what zeus will do. He acts according to the screenplay. And that's that case where a player is irrelevant. Anyone could play and the result would still be the same. You could even have a cartoon = no actor is playing zeus and he still would do stuff. The games are exactly the opposite: without a player there's nothing. Zeus is king of gods, when he uses his avatar -that avatar is also a king of gods. When he then switches to another one - still king of gods. And a character is an avatar for most players who even have more than 1 toon just because they are forced to (for bag space etc).Exactly, those rumors seem be to true lol. But no, that's a bad analogy. I don't ask to unlock all the new achievements that come out with new DLCs. We'd still have to complete them, just like you had to pass tests every year.
I should benefit from them as a player. What if my characters get deleted or something? Technically it is possible. But my efforts should be lost completely.TheShadowScout wrote: »Quite possibly the rumours are true, I could not say.
But you do seem to ask that you have to cpmplete the achievements only once, and then benefit from their one completion on multiple characters.
And I seem to be disagreeing with that notion, so...I'm wondering what happens if I delete all toons - will my pets costumes etc stay unlocked and I have access to them when I create 1 more character.TheShadowScout wrote: »Yet they still complete it With That Character, and thus get the title for it floating above the head Of That Character.
If they completel something without character, or something that needs multiple characters, then I would see the title being acount wide. There could be titles like that, you know... there aren't, but there could.
Yes, they complete it with that one because they can't use more than one at a time. It doesn't mean that titles shouldn't be account-wide: obviously it's a player who completed stuff, not the character.
The way I play. My character is my avatar and I aim to get every achievement. Therefore I am forced to play one character only and that's what stopping me. I am not having fun playing alts because I feel set back and that all my effort is ignored and not acknowledged.TheShadowScout wrote: »I sometimes find it fun to do the same things with different charaters sometime, and in those instances when I don't, I just let my alts do without the title/achievement.
Who is stopping you from doing the same?
What is stopping you from doing new stuff until you run out of new stuff to do?
Why must all things being whittled down to your level just so you can "have fun" to the disappointment of everyone else except the others from the "gimme crowd" who want everything handed to them quick and easy?
The most important part here - no one is stopping YOU. You like doing that? You can keep doing that. I don't like doing that and don't want to spend 800% effort instead of 100%, so yes don't force me and give an option not to do something that's not fun just so I can catch up with what I spent YEARS of achieving so I can finally start playing and working towards getting more titles/achives again.
Equal rights for all rewards. If titles are not shared - lock dyes, costumes, pets etc too, so only one character can use them.TheShadowScout wrote: »That is your opinion.
Mine differs.
I happen to think that in the light of how much already got turned account wide, titles -especially- should remain character specific. You could not help but agree for the ones where differences in character may affect the outcome, remember? I just say, equal rights for all titles, even the ones that "could be done with any character" - just do them with the character you want them for, and not do them for the characters you don't care enough for to make the effort...
Just because something is already account-wide it doesn't mean you can't do anything else such. Makes no sense.
Cool, so let us have our fictional titles. We won't claim they are true. We'll just wear them in silence.TheShadowScout wrote: »Wrong. Everything is a fiction here, but that does not make it a lie - a lie is a fiction claiming to be truth, a fiction that makes no such claims is a story instead.
Who are you to judge again? Being judgemental makes world worse. Not letting others to have fun when you aren't losing anything makes world worse.TheShadowScout wrote: »Personally I think those who need to lie to "enjoy" something are one of the things that makes this world worse then it is. Thus I will keep arguing agaisnt that kind of thing when I encounter it. You may find your enjoyment in defrauding others, but do not expect me to agree with that sort of thing.
Those people don't need to lie to enjoy. They need to wear the titles that they earned so they feel their effort is acknowledged when they play.All the other things are just a dumb design promoting grind and the waste of time. Once again, emperor is one thing, fishing or trophies - is something else.TheShadowScout wrote: »Both are merely marks on a computer file, as you outlined before, are they not?
What makes the marks on the file different is how easy or hard they werre to get.
And I keep arguing against changing the difficulty from what people had to work for...
No you don't. You just do it here because you don't want others to have fun and relaxed mood when they play the game. You want them to keep in mind that they need grind for years on their alt if they want to match progress with the main so they can finally keep progressing.
I didn't see you arguing against nerfs of dungeons. They are changing difficulty regardless. Some people disagree, some don't. Here we're not talking about difficulty, we're talking about time spent on cosmetic stuff. It's nothing compared to stuff that affects combat.
It's not "just like" that. You are really bad with analogies. The relations between things aren't conserved. Paintings aren't titles and aren't related in the same way to a painter. If I'd want to consider this though, I'd tell you the following. If you read half of the painting with your right hand and the other half with the left hand - they will still make one full painting and YOU are the one who drew it and will get any title/reward for it and both your hands will benefit. Canvasses/pics aren't toons/titles. They aren't similar it's in no way an analogy. Unlike the one with hands. Painter=player, hands=characters, painting=achievement or some goal a player works on.TheShadowScout wrote: »...on That single character...
Just like you spend effort to paint one picture, does not mean all your other empty canvasses are now also painted pictures.
Et cetera...
Picture is not a title. Best artist or whatever of 2016 is a title. A person who painted such and such painting is a title. And if you burn the picture - you still have that title. Stop, can't make analogies, read up on them first or make sure there's an analogy at least before posting it. There's absolutely no analogy with pictures.TheShadowScout wrote: »...and if you burn the picture you just painted, does that mean you did not spend the effort? No. But the picture is still gone... why should it work different with characters then?TheShadowScout wrote: »
I see the title as the "this character was there" mark, and the costume as mere bonus, which as such can be account wide, just like the crown store purchases only mean that someone had money.
Yes, those things used to be character specific in times of old, and are now account wide ever since the crown store.
Which is one of the things I mean when I say, the game has more then enough account wide stuff already, it doesn't need -everything- account wide...
Especially when it would devalue the titles. Right now they mean something -because- they take the extra effort. I for one prefer to see at least something remain that way instead of all of it handed out to the ones who would rather cry about how they "deserve" something then spend the extra effort...
That makes no sense. Titles and costumes are rewards. In this case, an achievement is the mark that the character was somewhere and if a costume is a bonus than a title is a bonus, too. Therefore, both or none should be shared.
it doesn't have more than enough. It doesn't even have enough. It needs account-wide titles+some counter for the max achievement score across all toons.TheShadowScout wrote: »And I think it IS cool to see what I complete With That Character.
And I think it IS cool that some things take extra effort to complete, and are not handed to everyone and their granny through effort shared across their multiple characters.
And I think it IS cool that only those characters who actually achieve some title-worthy thing may have that title float above their heads as silend bragging.
Not that I expect everyone to agree... just saying, there is the other side too.
I wouldn't mind a account overview... I probably would not care much for it, but I would not mind it either, and adding that would seem the optimal way to deal with the issue. (But since it wouldn't come with shortcuts... I guess you will argue agains tthat again, huh?)
And you will be able to do that. You will be able to see what you completed with a toon, you will be able to put in extra effort if you want etc. And I think it's not cool you limit my options when I'm not trying to limit yours and just support adding more options for others.
That's just selfish. You don't mind other achievement rewards to be shared, because you want to use them on your toons but don't want to put extra effort or spend extra crowns to unlock them. Titles are the same, but you don't care for them so you don't let others have that option.TheShadowScout wrote: »It could, but it should not, in my opinion.
All those things are achievement rewards and cosmetic. How are they different in principle? They aren't!You are talking about scripted movies where actors don't control anything, they just play roles to show how things happened in the book or RL or whatever. It's not similar to computer games in any way.
It is very similar, actually - except that in the movies, there is a fixed script for everyone, and in the games, half of it is up to the player to fill in (which of course requires a somewhat more loose and better fleshed out work on the other side as well, since the game world has to be prepared to react to whatever the player may choose to put into their characters sript).Oh you do? And I hate that I can't use my titles or show off my account-wide unique-achievement score or see where I'm at progress-wise when I'm on my alt.
What about my characters pets and costumes and dyes then? Those actually show what I completed much sooner than titles. You don't see a title unless you target a toon, you do dyes, costumes etc.TheShadowScout wrote: »They are not your titles. They are your characters titles.
Noone can show off "their" titles in game... well... not unless they have them added to their account name I guess, but since everyone could call themseves "doctor" or "president" in their account names these wouldn't be worth much...
I concede the point for checking an account wide achievement score. That one should be an option. As long as it does not replace the character-specific achievement score, but is seperate from it instead.
Of course it wouldn't replace the score for each character. That would be too much.
No they wouldn't. You wouldn't be forced to share titles or check out your combined achievement score in a separate tab. And you would never know if another player uses those options or not - that's the whole point and how it should be implemented. So would they lessen your fun if literally nothing would change for you in the game?TheShadowScout wrote: »Agreed, having fun is the main thing.
The trouble is when someone says they can only have fun if things are done -exactly like they want it- to the deteriment of other people having fun. Shared titles would lessen my fun. Account wide achivements would lessen my fun.
And I think another trouble is when someone says others can't have fun and have to spend 800% effort just because.
No, it's not at all "just like" painting. Stop bringing it up because you definitely didn't think this one through. It doesn't look like an analogy and I don't see any similarities. For example. how are painting different canvases = playing toons? Characters are tools, canvases are something you paint on. You can't have an analogy when something you do action with you claim to be similar to something your action is directed at.TheShadowScout wrote: »But its player spending effort On A Character.
Thus the effect of the effort ought to stay on that character.
Just like you spend effort painting a empty canvas with a nice painting, that effort stays on the canvas, it does not make all the different canvasses you might own or buy already painted with different scenes as well jjst because you "spent the effort" once.
Why should it for different characters then? Each is their own work of art after all (quality may depend on player skill)
Oh? No reason? By that argument, everyone would start with a fully developed endgame character because there "is no reason to force players to work more for something"? Yes, even those things that don't change game balance or combat strength - some of us find them important nonetheless. But the very idea of the achievements is to have something those people who care can spend time and have fun working towards on their characters. Often, working towards different ones on different characters.But thankfully it's not real life and there's no good reason to force players to work more for something that doesn't change game balance and doesn't change their combat strength.
Face it, if you really think what you post, if you really cannot be happy unless you get it all handed to you, then this may be the wrong game for you.
You may be happier with games that have only premade characters, and total your deeds by player. I am certain there are games like that. I just don't usually play most of them. Why do you insist ESO would be better if they rebuilt it to be more like those other games then?
yes. That would be perfect but we would have worse differentiation of players' strength. So it's be ideal for a player, but bad for the game overall. No, I don't ask anything handed. I just ask to see the fruits of my labor every time I'm online, not jsut when I'm online on a certain character.
Idk what other games you're talking about. I've never seen a game like that. And no one is talking about all deeds.TheShadowScout wrote: »But then again, noone is forcing anyone to do anything here.
You don't want to spend those hours clicking a button? Fine! Not like you -need- the achievement for anything, right?
You feel you need the achievement for something? Fine! Spend the hours clicking.
It is a Choice!
Just like doing the clicking multiple times would be.
This is wrong and zos knows it very well. There are pvp players. No one forces them to pvp, but that's why they play. There are pve players. And there are also completionist/achiv-hunter players. The latter group is discriminated as they are forced to play one toon, basically, if they want to work towards their goal, which is what any game is for them.And now the balance is skewed towards time spent. Some achievements take months and years to get. It's absolutely unreasonable to make players go through this again. And it does limit achievement hunters a lot - for example, we can't really commit to playing any other characters than our main, because playing them means we aren't progressing and aren't working towards any new achievements. And if, say, we'd complete something on an alt that's not completed by main - then we wouldn't have those scores summed up anywhere. We'd still have to work for it on the main once again just so that he has a total score with that achievement included. This is a bad design. Clearly L2D(esign) issue.
That's exactly what I want. Except for that crap with multiple unlocks. Many players won't like it including me. That forces us to play more than one toon. Forcing to play one or more than is equally bad - it has to be optional. ANd yes, it is forcing us. There's a type of players who work on achievements. Like PvE or PvP, there's also PvA.TheShadowScout wrote: »It is a design. Good or bad is in the eye of the beholder, or in this case, player.
You say bad. I say good. We might as well agree to disagree...
And I get your point... a point that could be migrated by adding the account achievement overview. Where every achievement acquired on a character could be noted and totalled... with a grand score total as well. Then suddenly doing an achievement twice, thrice or more times becomes valuable, since it all adds to the grand score, thus making your alting more fun again. There even could be special unlocks for multiples... make thew achievement once, get a dye as of now, make it twice, get something else, a special hair dye or warpaint unlock for example... make it four times, maybe even get a pet or mount... like I outlined before.
(...but the gimme crowd would hate that, since it would not be shortcuts, just more rewards for those who do the extra effort - how about you, hate it or find it appealing?)
lolwut? that's exactly what I want. What you said is exactly that.TheShadowScout wrote: »That is how you want it.
I would want both the individual scores and achievements as they are now, and maybe an added account total.
ahahha as I said, because you don't remember dyes - you don't care, but because you remember titles - they shouldn't be shared.. That's selfish and hypocrite, what your'e doing. I remember very good the dye you get for SO, that only few people had back in the days. PvPers know their dyes, PvErs know their rare dyes. It took skill to get SO dye back then and still you'd see alts wearing it.TheShadowScout wrote: »Personally I would have been happier with a "realistic" dye system where all dyes were made by alchemists, and you'd unlock them according to finding the ingredients or buying them from a vendor with gold... for a purely cosmetic dye system, not tied to achievements at all. Not that this ship hasn't sailed ans sunk a long time ago...
But that is one of the reasons I care little about dyes, since "realistically" they would not be tied to a characters deeds in any case, and thus are a non-issue in the matter.
The other is, I can hardly remember which hue of what color was the "special" one, so I seldom notice those. A title on the other hand... that is different, since those kinda say rather explicitely what was done...
p.s. dyes tied to character progress make perfect sense. Think about heraldry. A character is only allowed to use a certain color if he achieved something.TheShadowScout wrote: »They are the most successful... for being the first, filling a market. I doubt making a game "just like WoW" would be that good a idea, since I'd reckon many players who want things WoW style would go play the original... whereas other games may find their own little niche in doing things different then WoW for those players who want to play a different game.
Personally, the more I keep hearing about WoW, the less I felt inclined to ever play it... so you may be barking up the wrong tree here.
They aren't the first, what are you talking about? There were games before and at about the same time. And I'm not asking to make the game just like wow. It's just not wise not to learn from successes. Some things can be taken from there. One of them is the achievements.TheShadowScout wrote: »You think it should. I think otherwise.
And I don't doubt we'll keep getting threads like this - there are always people asking for handouts and shortcuts after all. Doesn't mean they have a valid point though, nor that their ideas would benefit the game in the long run...
No, you mean there are always people who enjoy poles in their asses and don't understand why others wouldn't want those. Well we don't. You keep enjoying stuff in your butt, let us enjoy not having it. It's not handout or shortcut, it's an option not to do something stupid. We still will have to complete dungeons etc to get gear etc.
Exactly = it's a bad analogy. Because of what you quoted you can't compare characters and books. No, now you are inventing artificial conditions to try and make your "analogy" work. It doesn't work, come up with the new one. Once again - signature is an appearance change of the book, not the title that you are getting.TheShadowScout wrote: »Exactly. And if it was technically impossible to take two books, maybe because the store had an "only one book for signing" policy to prevent that ond granny to cart her whole library there and holding up the line, you'd have to go twice, wouldn't you? Or decide that one signed book is enough for you.
Same choice you have in the game...
Oh, "though more...." so it's not a physical change. SO it's not "also a change". Stop trying to piggyback my arguments. It's not "also", it's not "just like" and it's definitely not "EXACTLY!". It's also a game, not real world. So it's not important who was born there etc. In this game every title is earned. You have no title when you just create an account.TheShadowScout wrote: »EXACTLY!
And gaining a title is also a change - though more of a social one then a physical one. Other people can get the same title, but each has to attain it on their own. Some titles may come through skill, some through birth, others through being in the right place at the right time. Some titles are important, others, less so.
Just like I have to try and make the same face and hair color. I'm forced to do that because there're rigid classes. And they require different races to work well.TheShadowScout wrote: »Actually it doesn't - you just create another toon with the same tatoo. The tatoo is not automatically selected in chargen after all, you have to do it by hand, right?
Those show much effort you are willing to spend period. It shouldnt' be on that character because the character is irrelevant. What relevant is how much time and luck you got.TheShadowScout wrote: »Those are the trial titles. The Master Angler title and similar? Totally just showing how much effort you were willing to spend on that character....
In wow it's acknowledged. IT's true regardless of the game. Characters spend no effort. The only thing they spend effort on is traits. Because they learn those even when you're offline. Other than that characters don't do anything unless you're playing them.TheShadowScout wrote: »That is why I only say it -may- mean that in WoW, because I cannot speak for that game.
But the fact does not change that some games may achievement-count the effort spent for the player who spent the effort, and other games count the effort spent for the character it was spent on.
Which means your notion that your way is the only way is invalid. And just repeating it as absolute statement in denial of the other possibilities does not make the other point of view disappear...
Yeah no. Canvas is not a character. Canvas isn't a tool. It's painter's hands or tools that are similar to characters, definitely not painting. It's nonsense, not an analogy. come up with another one.TheShadowScout wrote: »Its also not the canvas who makes the painting, and yet once the painter has painted it, the effort spent sticks to the canvas, and does not copy over to all other canvasses (or sticks) the painter (or player) may own.TheShadowScout wrote: »And yet, effort spent on your tool sticks to the tool and not to the person.
Sharpen one knife, and that knife will be sharp, yet your others won't. You can throw it away and pick up another, but the other won't be sharper for your effort to sharpen the first knife, yes?
Paint one knife with pretty pictures, and that knife will be pretty (depending on your skill in paining), yet your others won't
Have one knife signed by a famous smith, and only that knife is signed, yet your others won't be.
Call one knife a special name, and that name too sticks to this knife... (well, most knives are not worth special names, but... you get the point, I hope?).
No it doesn't stick to the tool. I become an NHL champion and stay one long after I break or throw away my hockey stick. Sharpening, signing etc are physical changes, they aren't similar to titles. Making those "analogies" doesn't help your cause.
Titles are a decoration too then. Some pets and polymorphs/costumes only come from one source and can only come from this source. They show off what you achieved much more than the title. e.g. - Maelstrom baron costume. You can't get it anywhere else but in maelstrom immersion wise.TheShadowScout wrote: »Yes. Because those I can see as mere decoration - immersion wise, pets can be gotten from many a source, clothes from every tailor, and so forth, yet a title is a sign of that characters reputation. Even if its all make believe..
You make no sense anymore. Just being selfish and hypocrite.Ok equal rules? Cool. So if some rewards are shared, then others should be shared too. Costumes, dyes, pets are already shared. If you are for equal rules - titles should be shared too. If you're against that - you aren't for equal rules. Or nothing should be shared. How do you think which one would be more popular? Create a poll and check yourself lol.TheShadowScout wrote: »You keep seeing all as "rewards" and I keep making a distinction between OoC stuff (like costumes, pets, dyes, that fluff-wise would not drop from the sky upon attaining some achievement, but would be bought from traders, just the powers that be choose this out of character mechanic to parcel them out instead) and IC stuff (like titles, which fluff-wise could only be earned for a character by that character doing the thing that gains them the title - even if its all virtual). And yet you yourself make a distinction between skill based titles and those where the character used may not matter... contradicting yourself? Not the best way to go about for an argument...
I see things for what they are. You unlock titles in exactly the same way as, say, dyes. You get them as rewards for some achievements. They are rewards. Yes I do make distinction between skill-based and non skill based stuff. that would include pets etc. All rewards should be either skill-based or not. I'm not contradicting myself.It would be convenient for more than 50% of players for all we know according to multiple polls on forums. And for others nothing would change. So yeah, it only adds to enjoyment of some without lessening anything.
Title's value would not be lessened too of course. Still, only that player would be able to use it and he still would have spend the same amount of effort.
Aghahahha oh it would because you say so? You would never know if I used the new system. You'd just see my character with the title I earned. I would still spend the same effort. Just that now if someone asks me if I did such and such thing, I can just show it right away instead of relogging.TheShadowScout wrote: »Oh, it would. You keep saying that, yet you contradict yourself when you mention how some titles take too much effort to go for and your "shared effort" idea as way tro make it easier.
The point is, if the current effort currently buys the title for One character, then IF there was a shared system, the effort to buy the same title for All characters would logically have to be much greater, yes?
As for a solution where really "nothing changed" for me and those of like mind... again, lets just entertain the idea of an account-overview tab, completely seperate from the current system. Just without shortcuts and cheapened titles.
Since you keep agruing for your system isntead of that reasonable idea... I can only conclude you really only want the shortcuts and the cheap titles, and all your arguments are mere rethoric in hopes of attaining your goal.
Perhaps the similarity to politicians speeches is one of the things I dislike about them...
No, I can't do it, no PvA player would accept this as a viable alternative. How about you don't tell us how to play when we don't tell you how to play. We are asking for stuff for us, not to take away from you. We don't ask to spend less effort either. We're okay to spend 100% of effort, just not 800%.TheShadowScout wrote: »So do it. Noone is -forcing- you to fish. But the fishing is the price for the Master Angler title... you make your choice if the title is worth spending the effort, just like anybody else.TheShadowScout wrote: »But few look closely enough to tell if that color is the special one, or just a similar non-special one. Same with the pets, I really don't bother remember which one are special, and which are not. Same with costumes, though as a roleplayer, I generally consider people in costume without a RP reason for the costume to be... something I would get censored mentioning here.
But titles... those I can see, and they tell me what to think on their own. Thus they are more important to me, since I take notice...
As for effort - not so. If you have a "kill 500 critters" achievement, and you fill an average of 200 of it just by going through the mainstory... then you have to spend 300 critters worth extra effort beyond the mainstory en passant critter killings to gain the achievement. But if it was shared, you could have two more characters go through the mainstory, spending only the usual effort to get there, yet have it count towards the achievement as well... without having to spend the extra effort. Saving you 300 critters worth of extra effort. And if shared... you'd get even cheaper, as the whole thing would then have cost 300 extra critters worth of effort per character... with the three mentioned, it would be saving 900 critters worth of extra effort. A number which would only increase...
I can see why many people would want the shortcut, really I do.
I just don't agree with the idea that they should get it....
You can't fill 200 critters "just" by doing the story. YOU HAVE TO ATTACK AND KILL THEM. And it doesn't matter if you do that doing the main story or something else. You still spend the same extra effort.
And yes, everyone knows skil-based pets and costumes. If they don't - they don't remember titles either, they just don't care for all taht stuff all together.
Good, so if you care - do not use those titles on your character. So easy. You'd still see who got which achievement etc. Don't deny others what they want.TheShadowScout wrote: »Personally I kinda learned decent english from computer games, since I started back in the days when german translations were not even a consideration... and the school english doesn't really help through computer RPGs or text adventures...
The main point about roleplaying however is to see your character different from yourself, a "role you play"... and once you get to that point of view, it makes perfect sense that the "mass murderer" achievement belongs to that particular character, and not you the player, despite you playing that character as murderer. And from there onwards... it gets important, since titles Have an in-character equivalent in "reputation", whereas costumes and dyes and all that is ICly just decoration... from an IC point of view, that special dye is just a color, but getting through some arena to the champion title, or being an expert fisherman, or a master explorer, well, that is something to brag about... as well as an indication to other roleplayers as to what type of character you play... what is this character known for, how might it mesh with my character idea, what points of reference might be used? (I might be less keen on titles if we had an actual "short backstory" tab for other people to inspect, really...)
They wouldn't affect you. You can still choose not to look at them and not to use shared titles. You would still have your checkpoints. Your way of playing would be fine, why can't we have our way and have fun too?TheShadowScout wrote: »Mostly I care little for things that do not affect me. But shared achievements would. That is why I keep trying to come up with alternatives that might cater to those who want an account overview, without them changing things for me in terms of achievement checkups, effort or title handling...
Again, it might be a good idea to bury the "account wide achievement" discussion and start a new one, maybe "Account Achievement Overview" where we could try to think of something that may not have shortcuts, but would give those players who like to see their account total something to enjoy... (But I warn you, I totally will argue for multiple achievement countings and added rewards for those if we did! )
And that's exactly what almost everyone means but account-wide achievements. I mean, if you played other mmos who have that you'd see how it works. NOt surprisingly, many players here used to play wow at some point.
But why would he want them to be that way?TheShadowScout wrote: »Well, one could reasonably compare some achievements as endurance test... the trick is, to make it fun for you regardless. And since noone forces you to get theose achievements right now... you can always do a little, make some steps, enjoy the road, and get there next year or whenever. Which incidentally leaves you more stuff to look forward to for the future...1 -
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Wrong. You are saying, the character does not know which book they read? Does not know which crafting style they learned, which landmark they had found, et cetera??Only the journal is something a "character" knows.
I might agree that maybe some of the things in there are semi-OoC... yet even the trial leaderboards show characters and not account names, so...
Well, duh!It does reflect their opinion - it addresses the player directly in the imperative mood mentioning the character in the 3rd person.
I mean, I did state that the thing is to convey character knowledge to the player, didn't I? Of -course- it has to adress the player - but the achievement itself was changed, from a way that could be done with help from an alt, to one that had to be done All On That Particular Character.
Which for me is a pretty strong statement, concerning the developers intentions about achievements in the question about account-wideness...
And this is where you are wrong again.Not at all irrelevant. Yes, there are separate cars and suits with their own specific features. Characters have their features too - class,race,gear, appearance. Titles belong to a player and shouldn't be one of those features unless it matters which character was used. Once again, if you acknowledge players behind characters - you have no right to keep pretending there's something character-specific. Especially since there's no good reason to have it that way.
Titles do not belong to players.
Titles "belong" to characters, just like a inspection mark would "belong" to the tool/car/whatever inspected, and not to the owner of that tool/cat/whatever.
And it is that way in ESO because that is how the developers decided to do it.
I say again, stating your opinion as absolute does not make it truth...
And I myself find good reason to have it that way.
No, -you- think it's a wrong choice, and you again post your personal opinion as absolute statement.Where's the contradiction? It's a wrong developer's choice then.
-I- think it's a right choice.
Not gonna. Because I want more then a stupid "waaaaaaarrrrgghhh!" story, and I definitely do not want cartoonish looks - I want immersion in a world, roleplaying, and thus a realistically feel is very important to me.Yeah so why can you have it your way but we can't have it our way? PLay wow. If you want rich lore and stuff - there's NO OTHER GAME as good.
That is something we can agree on then.The only game that comes close is ESO (one of the reasons I play it. Not fun playing in a noname world I don't care about).
The journal. The library. The cadwells almanac. And yes, definitely the achievement tab, no matter how much you dislike that one being character specific.As shown above, it doesn't. Not the all that tab. Just the journal with quests. Definitely not leaderboards with scores, definitely not the achievement tab.
The leaderboard... I would have to grant a half-half on that one, it IS somewhat OoC, yet it Does still use character info (duh, even you agree that characters are important to that kind of stuff)
You keep using that sentence. I don't think it means what you think it means...yes, but it's not at your expense. You aren't losing anything.
Actually... if you were to check some of my older posts, you'd find me arguning against such costumes wearable in battle, and suggesting they split them into "combat costumes" (aka, costumes with armor visuals) and "non-combat costumes" (aka wedding dresses and other civilian clothes) that would unequip as soon as you take damage.People got shortcut when they expanded undaunted skill line after some of us got all the dungeons achievements - we got punished for that, they maxed the line faster. That was unfair and affected the balance directly. They let huge bearded nords run around in wedding and other dresses + this new climber costume - that directly ruined immersion. Go fight with that. Did you even say anything about that when it was happening? Are you asking for that be fixed now?
I have no issues with burly, hairy nord boys wearing dresses if they want to look pretty though... that is entirely their lifestyle choice. My issue stems from people wanting to run around in those costumes yet still enjoy full armor protection... (Come to think of it, that might be an alternate option to handle this to my satisfaction - make a costume "inactive-fy" all armor worn and replace the values with a costume specific armor value... and let people find out on their own why armor is a good thing on a medieval-ish battlefield!)
Never fought in a wedding dress. Or any other costume, really. My characters wear bloody armor when going into battle... and use the costumes for RP occasions only.Because it's fun for you to fight in a wedding dress at the expense of my immersion.
But that sort of thing is -exactly- what I think about your "let's change all achievements to account wide" suggestions, you wanting fun at the expence of my immersion and enjoyment by changing a feature I like the way it is
If you work hard to gain something, and the next week it is handed out for poractically free to everyone, you "loose" the effort you spent.Now my fun wouldn't take away from you at all. You'd still keep everything, so nothing is at your "expense".
Yes, that sort of thing may happen, and if it does, it will vex many people.
Doesn't mean I won't argue against it happening though.
Which brings us here...
You also keep using the word "forced". And I don't think it means what you think it means...Yes, and you are supporting it. Every single achievement oriented player is forced to either play one toon or grind achievements again if he wants to play another toon. Because a player like that feels like he isn't progressing/wasting his time until he reaches his old achievement score. They still have to do effort and they earn this title, not the character.
Noone is forcing anyone to do anything.
Some players may choose to do something. Others may not.
Some players may choose to play an alt. Others may not.
Some players may choose to chase achievements. Others may not.
Yes, some players may feel they do not progress until they do something uniquely new. But those people will be pretty disappointed by games in general, play through them once, then leave for the next because they have "dunnidall". But the very same applies for those players and cadwells. Which is the reason why that one will in a week or so become optional... yet anyone who wants all the skyshards, mages guild books and quest skillpoints from those areas still is going to have to do it.
Same for the achievements.
Want the stuff? Do the work.
Don't want to do the work? Do without the stuff.
If it was only that, we would not be arguing, since I have no issues whatsoever with an additional tab showing account achievement overview and total score.It was said 100 times it would be an addition. Simply showing total score removes the feeling that the time playing with the alt is wasted.
The issues I am arguing against is the shortcuts derived from changing the current achievements to account-wide...
Actually, seeing characters as pretend-persons -is- the very core of an RPG. Which also applies to an MMORPG. That is what you bought - it says so in the game description last time I looked.I paid full purchase price when I bought a game and paid sub/bought DLCs. Now being forced to do something that's not fun for my money is exactly that - a pole up the rear. It's painful and I don't want to do it, but you support that law. I say - if you enjoy it, then just put it up the rear all you want, just don't force others do it.
If you want to see characters as pretend-persons - do so. Don't force me to do so if that means it limits the game for me.
Sorry you were not aware of that... but you feeling "limited" by the nature of the game is no reason for the game just to change to conform to your ideas.
Adding shortcuts would ruin it for others - unless those shortcuts came at a price.You are not obligated to use any shortcuts if you don't want to. Stop ruining it for others.
Soon there will be a "shortcut" to max level, but at the price of missing out on a few things. I am okay with that.
But a shortcut that lets people get full stuff at a fraction of the effort? That I disagree with...
I wouldn't spend 800% effort myself... I'd just spend it on one character, and let the others do without. As can everyone else if they want to.Not everyone wans to spend 800% of effort for 1 title. You can do it if you want, I don't ask to take that away from you. Why wouldn't you want others to play how they want?
Of course, then I could not show off the title on any of my alts... which is as it should be, since from my point of view, the titles are character-specific and not player awards.
And that is where my point of view and your point of view differ.Nah, it's you who say that I need to spend effort multiple times for one title. It's a player who spends the effort, not the character, so it's the player who owns the title and does whatever he wants with it.
I say, the player does not own the title, as it is an control stamp affixed to that particular character. You agree with skill based titles. I say, it works the same for all titles, thus the current system is working as intended.
You did not earn the title for yourself. You earned it for That character.
Actually from your point of view, your suggestion would be beneficial to me, with having eight characters and a great many achievements left undone.No, you're arguing because you personally don't care. It's not balance, it's hypocrisy. You only support things that are beneficial to you personally,not the players overall.
It would also cheapen the benefit.
And I do not want this to happen.
If everyone is "special", then noone is. I'd like to see special titles retain some meaning in the game... no matter how much the "gimme crowd" cried for "convinience" when they actually mean "shortcuts"
So... when your arguments fail, they suddenly "do not matter"...I'm not talking about the legal side of this. It doesn't matter who actually owns it.
...you do know that cartoons have voice actors, right?Once again, movies have nothing to do with it. In movies Sean Bean doesn't control what zeus will do. He acts according to the screenplay. And that's that case where a player is irrelevant. Anyone could play and the result would still be the same. You could even have a cartoon = no actor is playing zeus and he still would do stuff.
And you are saying, without a actor a movie is still the same? If you really think that...The games are exactly the opposite: without a player there's nothing.
Anyways, roleplaying games and movies differ in only -one- point - who writes the script. In movies its all from the writer, in roleplaying its half from the player(s).
That is all the difference.
Yes, because as I noted, that title belongs to Zeus.Zeus is king of gods, when he uses his avatar -that avatar is also a king of gods. When he then switches to another one - still king of gods.
If Zeus appears as golden shower, he might gain a "most sparkly" title - but that title would not carry over to the next time when he chooses to appear as swan. Only when he goes back to golden rain does he get "most sparkly" again.
JUST like the "Jedi Knight" titlte belonged to "Obi-Wan Kenobi", and not to Alec Guiness or Ewan McGregor.
JUST like the "Pact Hero" titlte belongs to the character(s) that finished the ebonheart pact storyline, and not the newbie you just made, or the player behind the character.
I say again, if you put effort in painting a picture, and it gets burned, that effort too is lost. If you put effort in playing a consome game and your console harddrive crashes badly, that effort too is lost.I should benefit from them as a player. What if my characters get deleted or something? Technically it is possible. But my efforts should be lost completely.I'm wondering what happens if I delete all toons - will my pets costumes etc stay unlocked and I have access to them when I create 1 more character.
It's called "life".
(And I would presume all your account unlocks would stay on your account even if you deleted all characters, ready to be picked up again as soon as you make a new one... and if not, then someone messed up with the coding! Not that I'd ever want to start this particular experiment...)
Obviously its the player completing stuff With That Character!Yes, they complete it with that one because they can't use more than one at a time. It doesn't mean that titles shouldn't be account-wide: obviously it's a player who completed stuff, not the character.
Obviously the title is floating above the head Of That Character!
So obviously the title should be character specific. As it is right now.
Working as intended...
...actually... if they made an additional acocunt wide tab, and then a second title version unlocked account wide for titles... some sort of "My other character is a Master Angler" that I would not mind... Because that I could just ignore as OoC info - it would not pretend to be "truth" for that character, yet allow you to show off the achievements you reached with another character... I wonder, would that satisfy you?Cool, so let us have our fictional titles. We won't claim they are true. We'll just wear them in silence.
I see them as the same way, in that a character is a work by a person, it starts out as blank canvas, and then gets buiolt up through questing and doing things. And the titles are part of that, part of the things you paint on your canvas... one title corresponds to "painted a moon", another might be "painted a flower"... but I do see them as part of the painting, NOT the accolates the painter gets for it.It's not "just like" that. You are really bad with analogies. The relations between things aren't conserved. Paintings aren't titles and aren't related in the same way to a painter.
That is an -artist- title. And if you had a "best ESO player of 2016" title, THAT would be a -player- title.Picture is not a title. Best artist or whatever of 2016 is a title...
The ones in the game are -character- titles...
YOU did not get the "pact hero" title, that character of yours did, and those characters of yours didn't, yet.
Et Cetera.
Not so. The bonus can be shared, but the title should not be, since those are the actual checkpoint marks. See above for the "pact hero" thing...That makes no sense. Titles and costumes are rewards. In this case, an achievement is the mark that the character was somewhere and if a costume is a bonus than a title is a bonus, too. Therefore, both or none should be shared.
That is what you think.it doesn't have more than enough. It doesn't even have enough. It needs account-wide titles+some counter for the max achievement score across all toons.
I think something else.
Like mentioned, I have no problem with adding options - as long as the ones already there do not get shortened. And since you sidestepped that one, I can only presume that all your "total score" talk is a smokescreen and you really are only concerned with talking your way into shortcuts...And you will be able to do that. You will be able to see what you completed with a toon, you will be able to put in extra effort if you want etc. And I think it's not cool you limit my options when I'm not trying to limit yours and just support adding more options for others.
Actually, I don't mind other stuff to be shared because I see them not as "rewards", but as the achievements a clumsy way to unlock them. And would spend extra effort and yes even crowns to unlock the ones I wanted to use if I had to...That's just selfish. You don't mind other achievement rewards to be shared, because you want to use them on your toons but don't want to put extra effort or spend extra crowns to unlock them.
...and titles I do NOT see as the same, those I see as a bechnmark for the character, and thus I am against them being shared. Like mentioned above... I would not mind alternate versions of titles to show off account progress, but I would not want to see title-claims to things not achieved on that character...Titles are the same, but you don't care for them so you don't let others have that option.
Tools do not improve ny use, quite the opposite, they get worn and needs replacement. When was the last time you had to replace a character because it got too worn down to work?No, it's not at all "just like" painting. Stop bringing it up because you definitely didn't think this one through. It doesn't look like an analogy and I don't see any similarities. For example. how are painting different canvases = playing toons? Characters are tools, canvases are something you paint on. You can't have an analogy when something you do action with you claim to be similar to something your action is directed at.
Characters start like a blank canvas... you draw an outline on it in chargen and your mind, then build upon that until your character is the way you want them to be. And maybe in the progress of that, you change your mind a little, and go a different direction - as might happen with paintings, or any work of art really.
Yes, viewed from another point of view characters also are something you use to affect the game world. Paintings don't usually do that (except in horror stories I suppose). My analogy was looking from the other point of view to convey that other point of view... the one which you seem incapable or unwilling to grasp.
You mean, like being forced to PvP if you want the PvP achievements despite just being here for the achievements and not for the PvP?That's exactly what I want. Except for that crap with multiple unlocks. Many players won't like it including me. That forces us to play more than one toon. Forcing to play one or more than is equally bad - it has to be optional. ANd yes, it is forcing us. There's a type of players who work on achievements. Like PvE or PvP, there's also PvA.
The point is, in every game I have seen account wide achievements done, there were some for multiple runs. Play through the game with each class. Play through the game for each faction. Play through this or that storyline option.
So if there was some account overview, there would almost certainly be new account wide achievements like those. It only makes sense.
And I would also think, that the idea of offering more rewards for playing through character achievements multiple times might be a nifty one as well. It certainly would let them have "spots" to put rewards in, which I would appreciate more then them just selling all future options in the crown store, really... the point being, those rewards ought to be -optional-, and nothing anyone really needed. Or even better, things that can be attained in other ways as well... I would love to see if if there were stuff like, say, hairstyles and other appereance options that could be either bought in the crown store as bundle, or "won" individually though multiple achievement playthroughs...
Then is we avoid the topic of changing the current system to make the current titles shared in effort and effect, we are in agreement.
lolwut? that's exactly what I want. What you said is exactly that.TheShadowScout wrote: »That is how you want it.
I would want both the individual scores and achievements as they are now, and maybe an added account total.
Finally.
Maybe it really IS time to start a new thread about this "Account Achievement Overview" then...
Actually... the reserved colors were less for their individual achievements, and more for their social status... their family, and so on. In other pieces of history, it was a unit thing, the first step towards uniforms... red cloaks for spartans, yellow clothes for persians (Yes, historically the persian royal color was yellow, and the "immortals" in all black a hollywood thing...). Or simply showing off wealth - purple became the "royal color" because it was the most expensive of all hues back in ancient rome...p.s. dyes tied to character progress make perfect sense. Think about heraldry. A character is only allowed to use a certain color if he achieved something.
Ah, makes me wish again dye stations required payment for another gold sink... and my immersion
Analogies can Never be the same as the patterns they try to convey. Just like a map is never the landscape.Exactly = it's a bad analogy. Because of what you quoted you can't compare characters and books. No, now you are inventing artificial conditions to try and make your "analogy" work. It doesn't work, come up with the new one. Once again - signature is an appearance change of the book, not the title that you are getting.
And a title is an optional appearance change of your character, since you have the option to show it on that character. Just like you have an option to show the signature on the first page of your book. That still does not mean you get to have the signature on all your books - unless you carry them to the signing event as well.
EXACTLY!Oh, "though more...." so it's not a physical change. SO it's not "also a change". Stop trying to piggyback my arguments. It's not "also", it's not "just like" and it's definitely not "EXACTLY!". It's also a game, not real world. So it's not important who was born there etc. In this game every title is earned. You have no title when you just create an account.
And you have No Title when you just created a new character!
And why should you? Its a NEW character.
Your other character may be the "Pact Hero", but your new character is freshly escaped from coldharbour and may gain that title later in the course of your adventuring. Your other character may be the "Master Angler", but your new character never sae a fishing hole in their short life. Your other character may be the "Savior of Nirn", but your new character has yet to clear a single dolmen.
Thus it makes a great deal of sense from my point of view to have titles character-specific.
Again, you are not "forced" to do anything. You -chose- to do some things, because they amuse you. Just like I chose to make my characters they way they are...Just like I have to try and make the same face and hair color. I'm forced to do that because there're rigid classes. And they require different races to work well.
You keep not reading, dontcha?In wow it's acknowledged. IT's true regardless of the game. Characters spend no effort. The only thing they spend effort on is traits. Because they learn those even when you're offline. Other than that characters don't do anything unless you're playing them.
I agree that only a player spends effort. That is always true, no matter what. Even for trait research - the effort is clicking, the effect just takes the research time to come into being.
I keep saying, the difference is in how the effort is counted - per player, or per character.
Some games count them per player, others per character. The existance of one way does not mean it is the only or true way.
Maybe you really should go play games that conform to your narrow point of view instead of demanding ALL games cater to your ideals only?
I am not sure that comparison works well - if you ask a thousand painters, they will likely tell you their toolsa re their brushes and not their canvas...Yeah no. Canvas is not a character. Canvas isn't a tool. It's painter's hands or tools that are similar to characters, definitely not painting. It's nonsense, not an analogy. come up with another one.
The point I am trying to make, again, is that a character in ESO is NOT a completed "tool", but a work in progress, and achievements are parts of that progress. Spending effort on one work in progress does NOT carry over to a different work in progress.
And any title -YOU- gain will stick to you long after you stop playing ESO. Go out, get your doctorate then!No it doesn't stick to the tool. I become an NHL champion and stay one long after I break or throw away my hockey stick. Sharpening, signing etc are physical changes, they aren't similar to titles. Making those "analogies" doesn't help your cause.
But the in-game titles of ESO are not "your" titles - they are character benchmarks, nothing more. Even if you spent the effort, they still are only marks on your character, and not titles for you. That's why the flaot over your characters head and not yours.
And that 100% buys the title for one character. Just like you can buy a license for using a program for one computer, but if you want the version for more computers, you have to pay a good deal more.No, I can't do it, no PvA player would accept this as a viable alternative. How about you don't tell us how to play when we don't tell you how to play. We are asking for stuff for us, not to take away from you. We don't ask to spend less effort either. We're okay to spend 100% of effort, just not 800%.
I mean, I get it, you want to have it all for cheap.
I just disagree that it would be good to give out -everything- too cheaply.
But, you have to attack and kill them to get through the story. And then you have to attack and kill more to get the achievement - that is how it was intended. And when you do a second character, you have to attack and kill those critters once again to get through the story. And then... you would have to attack and kill extras to get the achievement, or say "meh, nope, doing it once is enough, I'd rather do something more interesting" - and leave your alt without that achievement, because you did not achieve it on that alt.You can't fill 200 critters "just" by doing the story. YOU HAVE TO ATTACK AND KILL THEM. And it doesn't matter if you do that doing the main story or something else. You still spend the same extra effort.
You want that changed to not have to spend the extra effort, and yet gain the title for all your characters.
I prefer not to see the titles devalued like that.
We keep disagreeing, and that will not change.
The point is, they don't -need- to know the titles, because the tiles carry their mineaing in the words. Hard to recall which pet came from the crown store, and which was hard-won by some achievement, hard to recall which exact hue is the "special" one, but the title says it all in its words - that's the point!And yes, everyone knows skil-based pets and costumes. If they don't - they don't remember titles either, they just don't care for all taht stuff all together.
I dont deny others what they want - unless it is getting something without putting in the required effort. And yes, by that I mean multiple times for multiple titles.Good, so if you care - do not use those titles on your character. So easy. You'd still see who got which achievement etc. Don't deny others what they want.
Want it for one of your characters? Spend the effort for that character.
Don't want to spend the effort again? Have that character do without and keep the title on your main for bragging rights.
Like mentioned, I would have no problem whatsoever if there was a new "Angler Legacy" title added to an account overwiev tab that meant you had achieved "Master Angler" on a different character to show off your "account effort". I just would like the actual title we have now remain as it is for those people who care about the current titles, for those people who spent the effort... some of them even multiple times.
I played othr MMOs. None of them did it account wide. Not one. All of them had LESS account wide stuff then ESO. And I agree that some of their features were less oiptimal then ESO... at a certain point, having to work too much to keep all your characters "current" becomes a drag, whereas ESO has this nifty champion system...They wouldn't affect you. You can still choose not to look at them and not to use shared titles. You would still have your checkpoints. Your way of playing would be fine, why can't we have our way and have fun too?
And that's exactly what almost everyone means but account-wide achievements. I mean, if you played other mmos who have that you'd see how it works. NOt surprisingly, many players here used to play wow at some point.
But I disgress.
The point is, I do not wish to see the current achievements cheapened, and the effort some people spent neglected by changing the way they are. You talk so much about effort being valued... I know I would feel robbed if someone could do what I struggled for with half the effort. And I am guessing, I am not the only one feeling that way.
So instead I try to come up with possible solutions that might let both of us have what we'd like. Ways that keep the current system and its effort requirements as they are, yet also gives those who like to see their account progress something to enjoy and have fun with...
An added Account Achievement Overview tab, where you see which achievements you did account wide, with a total score from all your character-achieved achievements, and maybe some new "account titles" version for titled achievements in the overview tab that allow you to show off titles you achieved with your main or whatever character on all your alts, and maybe even some new rewards for multiple completions to be added...
...but no sharing of effort between characters to cheapen the old achievements, and no sharing the old titles between characters.
How about it? That something we could agree on? If so, let's bury all the arguments above it and start anew talking about this one possibility...1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There are acheivements that should NEVER be shared. Dungeon clears and related achievements should only be character based. No one should have a acheivement for a dungeon clear on s character they haven't figured out how to play it. Same with the associated titles.
With that I could care less about fishing acheivements.3 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭You are being a hypocrite. You aren't for immersion and realism. You just want other players to stick a pole up their butts, simply because you enjoy it. You obviously don't care about equal rights, since you're ok with pets/mounts etc being shared, but not the titles. Just because something is in the crown store it doesn't mean it should be shared. According to you - want it on another character? Buy it for another character.
Not to mention that I haven't seen you starting threads about gold not having mass etc etc. You don't give a daedrat's ass about realism, don't lie to yourself.
Yes, things lose their value over time. It's normal, it's like that in real life, it happened multiple times in this game as well. Expanding undaunted skilline is one example, removing vet ranks is another one (now 16 ranks grinded after lvl50 make no sense). It's a natural process and if a few people have their stuff devalued - oh well, it's their problem. If it makes more people happy, than unhappy, then it must be done.
No, the game clearly addresses the player and clearly admits that it's the player spending effort and doing the achievement. It could be arguable if it was simply in the imperative mood, but it mentions a character in the 3rd person which makes it clear that it's just a tool. THere's no reason to not share some titles. Some other achievement rewards are already shared. And no, characters don't own anything. They are themselves owned by players.
And I know what the word "Forced" mean, unlike you. A PvA player plays to get achievements. If he has to use more than one toon - he is forced. And that is why absolutely not to your suggestion. Multiple completions? Forcing players to play more than one toon? Then what's the point of account-wide achievements? And yes, it's the same thing that you call an "overview" or whatever. No one is asking to have all achievements completed on every character.
Yes, I'm almost done with my doctorate's. No clue how it's related to the thread, though.
And if they change the requirements for a PhD, I won't cry that I lost something because others can get it easier. Similarly, you aren't losing anything when others get it. It's a game, it's sad if your self-esteem is tied to how much more virtual stuff you have compared to others. It's not something that should be encouraged by devs and stop them from making the change that most players ask for and will welcome.
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TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
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It has gotten a bit out of hand, has it not...?Are you guys thinking of publishing your exchanges in book form?
I'd let it rest, having made several such suggestions, but... well... here we go again...
I really would not mind all crown store items being character-specific at roughly the eighth of the current price... since I often buy one for one character only and never use it with another... yet I can see how they made it like this to gather more profit. Since more profit is what keeps the game alive, I am wise enough not to argue against it...You are being a hypocrite. You aren't for immersion and realism. You just want other players to stick a pole up their butts, simply because you enjoy it. You obviously don't care about equal rights, since you're ok with pets/mounts etc being shared, but not the titles. Just because something is in the crown store it doesn't mean it should be shared. According to you - want it on another character? Buy it for another character.
But the fact remains that you equate the current achievement system with your wierd bumpole fixation (the things Freud would say about this...), while I simply see it as the most logical option from a roleplayers point of view, and I see your arguing as a attempt to fast-talk yourself out of paying the full developer-intended price. I do not like people who think they deserve an advantage that would end up a disadvantage for others, so I oppose your notion.
And I would think, for wanting skill-based titles character specific but arguing all others ought to be shared, you'd have a higher hypocritical rating then me... not that I would take enjoyment from calling other people names, nor see ad hominem attacks as valid rethoiric strategy...
I do enjoy realism, though I also am wise enough to know the game lives through a balance of immersion and convinience. I do sometimes make posts asking for more realism, like skimpy costumes having no armor value, meaningful darkness and need for torches/lights, or armor affecting swimming (including the "sink like a dstone in full plate" thing), but that is another topic entirely... and I am somewhat reluctant to start threads, preferring to take a more reactive then active role. As you may have figured out from our exchange already...Not to mention that I haven't seen you starting threads about gold not having mass etc etc. You don't give a daedrat's ass about realism, don't lie to yourself.
Just because it happens does not mean it always should happen. Maybe for purchases, yes, but not for some other things... would you like it if your work lost value over time? If instead of a raise, you get a reduced salary each year? If so, I am sure whoever you may go work for would just be too happy to accomodate your special wishes...Yes, things lose their value over time. It's normal, it's like that in real life, it happened multiple times in this game as well...
And yet the semantics aside, which are indeed for the players benefit to convey metagame-information to a player, the -effect- of the achievements is character-specific, and has seen alterations to make them more character-specific (the "Truly Legendary" going from something you could use alt halp for to something each character would have to do on their own...)No, the game clearly addresses the player and clearly admits that it's the player spending effort and doing the achievement. It could be arguable if it was simply in the imperative mood, but it mentions a character in the 3rd person which makes it clear that it's just a tool. THere's no reason to not share some titles. Some other achievement rewards are already shared. And no, characters don't own anything. They are themselves owned by players.
Personally I count function first, form second...
And I say again, the reason I am somewhat opposed to sharing of titles is because I see those as benchmarks, and all other stuff as mere window dressing. And I just consider it wrong for a newly made character just arrived on Davons Watch to have access to "Pact Hero" merely because a different character on the same account already made it through the pact storyline. And thus the same must follow for all the other titles as well for my reasoning to be consistent.
On the other hand... if you really, really insist for getting titles like that, considering zanimax past choices I would think they might put title unlocks in the crown store instead... you know, "for convininence"... much like bank expansions or riding lessions... and I suspect that option would make both of us equally unhappy, yes?
Obviously you do not know the meaning of the word.And I know what the word "Forced" mean, unlike you. A PvA player plays to get achievements. If he has to use more than one toon - he is forced.
A PvA player may well play to get achievements, but either that player is "forced" to do anything as you say, which is pretty silly since noone is holding a gun to their heads and making dire threats for the possibility that they were not to do so, so they just choose for themselves if getting this or that achievement is worth the effort. And usually decide, yes, for them it may just be - that is what makes them PvA players then, whereas a PvE or PvP player may have different priorities for where they put their effort, and what they use to measure their progression...
The point I am trying to make is, you are arguing -entirely- for shortcuts, and are using the "ooo, account wide" arguments as smokescreen to sneak in your shortcuts through the backdoor. Whereas I am saying, if they were to start looking at the whole account, achievement-wise, multi-character-completion achievement tracking and rewards are the next logical step.
Obviously your only true "point" is adding shortcuts... not "progression on alts", not "account progress overview", not even "more fun" - not any of that, you just want the achievements and be done with them, yet are unwilling to put in the effort the developers established for getting them in the first place. And you want to do them once, then have that one completion copy over to all characters appearently.And that is why absolutely not to your suggestion. Multiple completions? Forcing players to play more than one toon? Then what's the point of account-wide achievements? And yes, it's the same thing that you call an "overview" or whatever. No one is asking to have all achievements completed on every character.
I just happen to disagree that it should work like this, that's all.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You are being a hypocrite. You aren't for immersion and realism. You just want other players to stick a pole up their butts, simply because you enjoy it. You obviously don't care about equal rights, since you're ok with pets/mounts etc being shared, but not the titles. Just because something is in the crown store it doesn't mean it should be shared. According to you - want it on another character? Buy it for another character.
Not to mention that I haven't seen you starting threads about gold not having mass etc etc. You don't give a daedrat's ass about realism, don't lie to yourself.
Yes, things lose their value over time. It's normal, it's like that in real life, it happened multiple times in this game as well. Expanding undaunted skilline is one example, removing vet ranks is another one (now 16 ranks grinded after lvl50 make no sense). It's a natural process and if a few people have their stuff devalued - oh well, it's their problem. If it makes more people happy, than unhappy, then it must be done.
No, the game clearly addresses the player and clearly admits that it's the player spending effort and doing the achievement. It could be arguable if it was simply in the imperative mood, but it mentions a character in the 3rd person which makes it clear that it's just a tool. THere's no reason to not share some titles. Some other achievement rewards are already shared. And no, characters don't own anything. They are themselves owned by players.
And I know what the word "Forced" mean, unlike you. A PvA player plays to get achievements. If he has to use more than one toon - he is forced. And that is why absolutely not to your suggestion. Multiple completions? Forcing players to play more than one toon? Then what's the point of account-wide achievements? And yes, it's the same thing that you call an "overview" or whatever. No one is asking to have all achievements completed on every character.
Yes, I'm almost done with my doctorate's. No clue how it's related to the thread, though.
And if they change the requirements for a PhD, I won't cry that I lost something because others can get it easier. Similarly, you aren't losing anything when others get it. It's a game, it's sad if your self-esteem is tied to how much more virtual stuff you have compared to others. It's not something that should be encouraged by devs and stop them from making the change that most players ask for and will welcome.
Who in the hell are you talking to. Since your post csme right after mine I will asume your talking to me.
First, getting my that doctorate has fried your brain it seems.
Second, you'd better get off that high horse before you hurt yourself. And maybe chill out. Somethings gonna burst.
Third and final, scroll back up and read my post again. Not still applies and is still appropriate.2 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheShadowScout wrote: »Just because it happens does not mean it always should happen. Maybe for purchases, yes, but not for some other things... would you like it if your work lost value over time? If instead of a raise, you get a reduced salary each year? If so, I am sure whoever you may go work for would just be too happy to accomodate your special wishes...
It's a natural process. THere's no "should" or "shouldn't", it just happens regardless of whether you like it or not. You do get a reduced salary each year (well I do) because the cost of living increases but they don't increase the salary. My rent went up like 30%. I still teach the same amount of classes and still get the same amount money for it.I wasn't tracking other prices, maybe they went up as well. That's just how economics works.
And ZOS already created too many precedents to understand that they won't care about the needs of few if they can satisfy the needs of many(including their own need for money). Just look at the past: undaunted skill line, nerfing alliance war skill line grind, removing vet ranks, discounts in crown store when others already paid the full price. After all that there's absolutely no reason to care about your feelings about your achievements. At the very least you're not losing anything and most achievements don't have titles anyway, so you won't even know if others have them ->their "devaluation" won't affect you in a bit, unlike seeing people with all those mounts that they didn't pay the full price for.TheShadowScout wrote: »And I say again, the reason I am somewhat opposed to sharing of titles is because I see those as benchmarks, and all other stuff as mere window dressing. And I just consider it wrong for a newly made character just arrived on Davons Watch to have access to "Pact Hero" merely because a different character on the same account already made it through the pact storyline. And thus the same must follow for all the other titles as well for my reasoning to be consistent.
On the other hand... if you really, really insist for getting titles like that, considering zanimax past choices I would think they might put title unlocks in the crown store instead... you know, "for convininence"... much like bank expansions or riding lessions... and I suspect that option would make both of us equally unhappy, yes?
It's like you don't read at all. I already mentioned this. You wouldn't be able to use a title on a character if that character can't technically get that title. So you won't see lvl3 heroes, stormproofs etc. Think of a CP system, all characters unlock CP once they hit some certain level (lvl50 in this case). Similar thing can be implemented with the titles.
Yes, because that is not convenience. That's paying money instead of getting it in game. It's a robbery, not convenience.TheShadowScout wrote: »Obviously you do not know the meaning of the word.
A PvA player may well play to get achievements, but either that player is "forced" to do anything as you say, which is pretty silly since noone is holding a gun to their heads and making dire threats for the possibility that they were not to do so, so they just choose for themselves if getting this or that achievement is worth the effort. And usually decide, yes, for them it may just be - that is what makes them PvA players then, whereas a PvE or PvP player may have different priorities for where they put their effort, and what they use to measure their progression...
The point I am trying to make is, you are arguing -entirely- for shortcuts, and are using the "ooo, account wide" arguments as smokescreen to sneak in your shortcuts through the backdoor. Whereas I am saying, if they were to start looking at the whole account, achievement-wise, multi-character-completion achievement tracking and rewards are the next logical step.
You're not holding gun, you just took their money already. I know what forced means, but you obviously don't know what a pva player is, since your logic is nothing like such player's logic.
They pursue every single achievement, not the ones that "worth it". It's a reward in itself. That's how they know the completed content.
A character for many is their alter ego. Forcing them to play more than 1 toon - is a sucker punch. I'm not supposed to create more than 1 character at all. I won't even go into TES traditions, no rigid classes and ability to experience every type of game play with just one character who's kinda you.
Obviously not. Read posts again. It's not shortcuts or anything like that. Will still put the same effort to get an achievement. Not and should not be supposed to do it more than once if it's not fun. And most of them are not fun.TheShadowScout wrote: »Obviously your only true "point" is adding shortcuts... not "progression on alts", not "account progress overview", not even "more fun" - not any of that, you just want the achievements and be done with them, yet are unwilling to put in the effort the developers established for getting them in the first place. And you want to do them once, then have that one completion copy over to all characters appearently.
I just happen to disagree that it should work like this, that's all.1 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
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It's called "inflation", stranger, and does not have anything to do with the salary, but with the money becoming less in value because they print more of it without increasing the values backing it...It's a natural process. THere's no "should" or "shouldn't", it just happens regardless of whether you like it or not. You do get a reduced salary each year (well I do) because the cost of living increases but they don't increase the salary...
But its funny how you mention how the requirements for your renting a place went up, and then try to use that to argue how the requirements for gaining an achievement should go down instead because "its a natural process"... go on, make the argument with your landlord about the rent. Look where it gets you.
I did read that. And I am still opposed to people just gaining a title by reaching a point - if they could "do it", and if they want the title, they bloody well ought to "do it" with that character as well instead arguing that their alt should just gain the title because they "already done it" on another character.It's like you don't read at all. I already mentioned this. You wouldn't be able to use a title on a character if that character can't technically get that title...
I mean, really... take the other stuff. You don't get a mainstory complerion handed to you just because you "already done it" on your main. You don't get a cadwells completion dropped into your lap just because you "done it" with your main. (Sure, that one has become more or less optional at this point - but if you want to unlock all the wayshrines, grab all the skyshards and find all the mages guild books or whatever, you still have to go and do it.) You don#t get Alliance rank you PvPlayed for on your main handed over to your alts. You don't get a maxed riding handed to all your alts because you managed it on your main (though the gimme crown keeps arguing for that too). You don't get crafting research from your main copied to your alts.
Same for titles, in my opinion.
They call it convinience when they seell riding lessions for those foolish and impatient enough to not want to wait and get it in the game. You can call it robbery if you like, but noone is forcing anyone to buy the darn riding lessions... and the smart petient ones won't, not for something they can do in-game instead.Yes, because that is not convenience. That's paying money instead of getting it in game. It's a robbery, not convenience.
And yet, that is Their reaction to those people crying "Wah, I took half a year to max riding on my main, now I have to do it all over again on an alt, I deserve to get it for free, gimme!"
Why would their reaction be all that different for titles?
Exactly. And when it requires some more effort... they choose to spend that extra effort, whereas other types of players may not. And if "extra effort" would mean doing it all over again with an alt... they'd have to decide how serious they were about being "PvA players", wouldn't they?You're not holding gun, you just took their money already. I know what forced means, but you obviously don't know what a pva player is, since your logic is nothing like such player's logic.
They pursue every single achievement, not the ones that "worth it". It's a reward in itself. That's how they know the completed content.
I am just saying, "do it again with another class" and "make all the different choices" are classic examples that show up in account wide achievement systems; yes, a cheap ploy to make people spend more time on the game through multiple playthroughs, but it IS something that might logically follow any such account wide system...
Yes, it is an alter ego. Some like to have different alter egos for different aspects of their personality, others lack the ability or inclination to do so, character-play wise. Both is all right, and to be respected.A character for many is their alter ego. Forcing them to play more than 1 toon - is a sucker punch. I'm not supposed to create more than 1 character at all...
As for what you are supposed to do... well, the fact that we All start with eight character slots speaks more loudly on that then what you write here, dontcha think?
(and I actually would not have minded if the game was set up to restrict people to one character only and instead let them do -everything- on that... have every skill open to learn and so... let people decide on their own in game where to go with their character... but they choose to do it differently. Maybe some other game, maybe the next time...)
But, the same type of people who would not want to make more then one character would not care one bit about anything you are arguing for, since it had no meaning for them. They already have all the things you want - since they only have one character to pursue achievements with.
So it kinda feels like you are arguing in circles here... for account wide achievements, but only where it benefits you with shortcuts, and against anything that would actually expand the achievement system...1 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nope, it's not that requirements of getting a place went up, it's that requirements for the landlord to make a dollar went down. It's not just inflation. It's not just about the value of money, in that case my salary would go up as well, I'd just spend more on everything and the buying power of my salary wouldn't go up. In this case - I still make the same, but have to give more.TheShadowScout wrote: »
It's called "inflation", stranger, and does not have anything to do with the salary, but with the money becoming less in value because they print more of it without increasing the values backing it...It's a natural process. THere's no "should" or "shouldn't", it just happens regardless of whether you like it or not. You do get a reduced salary each year (well I do) because the cost of living increases but they don't increase the salary...
But its funny how you mention how the requirements for your renting a place went up, and then try to use that to argue how the requirements for gaining an achievement should go down instead because "its a natural process"... go on, make the argument with your landlord about the rent. Look where it gets you.
I did read that. And I am still opposed to people just gaining a title by reaching a point - if they could "do it", and if they want the title, they bloody well ought to "do it" with that character as well instead arguing that their alt should just gain the title because they "already done it" on another character.It's like you don't read at all. I already mentioned this. You wouldn't be able to use a title on a character if that character can't technically get that title...
I mean, really... take the other stuff. You don't get a mainstory complerion handed to you just because you "already done it" on your main. You don't get a cadwells completion dropped into your lap just because you "done it" with your main. (Sure, that one has become more or less optional at this point - but if you want to unlock all the wayshrines, grab all the skyshards and find all the mages guild books or whatever, you still have to go and do it.) You don#t get Alliance rank you PvPlayed for on your main handed over to your alts. You don't get a maxed riding handed to all your alts because you managed it on your main (though the gimme crown keeps arguing for that too). You don't get crafting research from your main copied to your alts.
Same for titles, in my opinion.
They call it convinience when they seell riding lessions for those foolish and impatient enough to not want to wait and get it in the game. You can call it robbery if you like, but noone is forcing anyone to buy the darn riding lessions... and the smart petient ones won't, not for something they can do in-game instead.Yes, because that is not convenience. That's paying money instead of getting it in game. It's a robbery, not convenience.
And yet, that is Their reaction to those people crying "Wah, I took half a year to max riding on my main, now I have to do it all over again on an alt, I deserve to get it for free, gimme!"
Why would their reaction be all that different for titles?
Exactly. And when it requires some more effort... they choose to spend that extra effort, whereas other types of players may not. And if "extra effort" would mean doing it all over again with an alt... they'd have to decide how serious they were about being "PvA players", wouldn't they?You're not holding gun, you just took their money already. I know what forced means, but you obviously don't know what a pva player is, since your logic is nothing like such player's logic.
They pursue every single achievement, not the ones that "worth it". It's a reward in itself. That's how they know the completed content.
I am just saying, "do it again with another class" and "make all the different choices" are classic examples that show up in account wide achievement systems; yes, a cheap ploy to make people spend more time on the game through multiple playthroughs, but it IS something that might logically follow any such account wide system...
Yes, it is an alter ego. Some like to have different alter egos for different aspects of their personality, others lack the ability or inclination to do so, character-play wise. Both is all right, and to be respected.A character for many is their alter ego. Forcing them to play more than 1 toon - is a sucker punch. I'm not supposed to create more than 1 character at all...
As for what you are supposed to do... well, the fact that we All start with eight character slots speaks more loudly on that then what you write here, dontcha think?
(and I actually would not have minded if the game was set up to restrict people to one character only and instead let them do -everything- on that... have every skill open to learn and so... let people decide on their own in game where to go with their character... but they choose to do it differently. Maybe some other game, maybe the next time...)
But, the same type of people who would not want to make more then one character would not care one bit about anything you are arguing for, since it had no meaning for them. They already have all the things you want - since they only have one character to pursue achievements with.
So it kinda feels like you are arguing in circles here... for account wide achievements, but only where it benefits you with shortcuts, and against anything that would actually expand the achievement system...
Titles and riding are two completely different things in principle. That's another lousy analogy of yours which is not worth discussing. Come up with a real analogy - then we talk. Hint: titles are rewards for achievements, like dyes, some pets, costumes..
They don't choose to spend extra effort x8. It makes no sense. After you've done it once, you aren't pursuing anything new doing it again. And IT here is itself a repetitive and boring action.
Exactly both should be respected. Right now only your approach is respected, while mine isn't. Starting with 8 slots doesn't say anything except that it gives an option to those who want to have alts to have alts. And yes, I agree - let people decide. So far all polls show that most players support what I'm asking for, besides those who want to have "different alter egos" don't lose anything - they still have them. Absolutely no reason not to let me have what I want - which is have my ONE alter ego in 8 versions (each class, stam and magicka. And I wouldn't have to do that if not class system and races affecting endgame performance so much - we shouldnt' have any of that in a TES game). We pay as much as you do and there's more of us. So, ZOS, don't listen to these griefers please. They just don't want us to have fun and want everyone to do dumb, unnecessary stuff, just because THEY enjoy it.
One-character example is bad. It would work if this game didn't have classes, but since balance changes all the time AND people get tired and bored with playing the same class when there are others - that doesn't work. pvaers can't enjoy playing alts as they'd like.
And no, it wouldn't expand the system. It would simply be a slap in the face for those who don't like doing dumb repetitive grind once again. It's like you want to drive people from the game. I'm all for expanding the system with non-grindy achievements. Add something like kill "female breton dk", "male redguard sorc" etc in Cyro achievements. All possible race and class combos, that'd be fun. But forcing players to play more than one toon to get 100% achievement score? That's wrong in so many ways that I don't even know where to start, considering that you're a humanities major, too.1 -
Elvent✭✭✭✭I love account wide achievements in games. I get to enjoy trying to get as many achievements as I can. But in character specific achievements I have no interest in achievements because I don't stick with only one character, I like playing lots of different characters, I will never have a "main" character that I only play so why would I want to get all achievements on a character that I won't play very much or at all?
Achievements in this game just feel like a waste of time to me, if I get one cool...whatever, I probably already had it on my other character anyways whoopty doo. If they were account wide I would care and I would be getting every possible one that I could.
Otherwise it would just be way too repetitive. But a lot of people in this game has a thing for grinding, they love their boring grinds so I can see those types of people loving repetitive so they enjoy this kind of achievement system.
The last time I seen so many people that love grinding in an MMO was the last korean MMO I ever played years ago. I will never understand the love for grinding in video games, it's insanity. I have to have a story, a quest, a journey, variety, fun, exploration.
Sitting in a area grinding on the same mobs for hours and hours...good god I feel bored already just thinking about it...
But that's their play style and it seems like they outnumber the rest of us so I have a feeling character specific achievements are here to stay permanently.2 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »Or this is to much to ask?
If it was an MMO, maybe.... but then I wouldn't be here.
It's an mmoRPG which means it's about the CHARACTER, not the player.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis3 -
SahrotRein✭✭✭✭I wouldn't want that.Today we make our stand. Today we take back the Ruby Throne, which is ours by ancient right and the blessings of the Divines.- A Dominion of peace. The fair and just rule of Tamriel0 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
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For one, that does not make any sense at all.Nope, it's not that requirements of getting a place went up, it's that requirements for the landlord to make a dollar went down...
For another...
...you are contradicting yourself.My rent went up like 30%.
Either your rent (aka, requirements you need to meet to have your place) went up, ot it didn't. Pick one.
Everything is worth discussing.Titles and riding are two completely different things in principle. That's another lousy analogy of yours which is not worth discussing. Come up with a real analogy - then we talk. Hint: titles are rewards for achievements, like dyes, some pets, costumes..
Though it was not meant as analogy, but as a reminder that those things too are demanded by the gimme crowd with the "because I already did it on my main" argument, at one time or another. And yes, if I stumble across any of these, I argue against them as well.
And while you may see the titles as "reward" for the player, I see them as checkpoint mark for the character. Has this character finished that faction storyline and gained the "pact/dominion/covenant hero" title already, or not yet? Has this character finished the mages guild storyline and gained the accompaning title? Has this character gained the "Master Angler" title? Et cetera...
Sure it makes no sense from an achievement hunter point of view- now. (well, except for some things that already make sense... like, finishing maelstrom arena with your sorc, and then trying it with your templar to see how that build does with it, etc.) It might make sense if added multiple completions gave added incentive... which is one possible option for future expansion of the achievement system.They don't choose to spend extra effort x8. It makes no sense. After you've done it once, you aren't pursuing anything new doing it again...
It does make more sense from a roleplayers point of view... IF they really want some title for one of their characters to show off... say they are making some marco polo type character you enjoy roleplaying as such, then they might like to flaunt a "Master Explorer" title, or they make some grizzled bounty hunter and want a "Monster Hunter" title to show off their backtory "profession"... stuff like that is important for roleplayers.
Whut? The "play only one character" approach is very, very respected in ESO! What other game allows you to see all its sights/quests with one character through a mechanic like cadwells???Exactly both should be respected. Right now only your approach is respected, while mine isn't...
Agreed, with class-based systems, one character setups are suboptimal.One-character example is bad. It would work if this game didn't have classes...
In fact, one-character setups are generally iffy to do in MMOs, doubly so if there are huge differences in ability effects. But that is another topic entirely...
Personally I would like non-grindy achievements. I would also like to see the current grindy ones become less grindy... just not in an "let's just spread them all over our different characters" way.And no, it wouldn't expand the system. It would simply be a slap in the face for those who don't like doing dumb repetitive grind once again. It's like you want to drive people from the game. I'm all for expanding the system with non-grindy achievements. Add something like kill "female breton dk", "male redguard sorc" etc in Cyro achievements. All possible race and class combos, that'd be fun...
I mean, I hate grinding as much as any roleplayer, and I dislike farming for drops just as much - mindlessly repetetive actions make my brain feel like its liquefying and sloshing around my skull... I especially hate those trophy achievements, and wish there were opportunities to kill something with hugely increased trophy drop chance... like, take down this or that world boss, dungeon boss, etc., and have a 50% chance at a trophy for that monster type... or have a greatly increased chance for general spawn on, say, cyrodil dolmens... Or maybe some consumable that is super-annoying to get (aka psijic ambrosia - either work your bum off for it, or buy through crown store) but immensely increases your chances for trophy drops or general spawns...
That's the kind of thing I want to see to make my achievement hunting less grindy.
And I really like the idea of more non-grindy achievements... build-combo hunting in cyrodil? Bring it on! (and listen to the cries of despair from all those achievement hunters about how they cannot find nord sorcerors or argonian dragonknights... while drowning in breton templars, altmer sorcerors, khajiit nightblades or dunmer DKs). Anything else of the sort, right up my alley!
However, I am just stating that IF the whole achievement system was expanded to any kind of account overview, then the option for multiple completions being counted and rewarded would be a logical step. As much as you may dislike that.
...and that pretty much sums it up for my position as well!newtinmpls wrote: »If it was an MMO, maybe.... but then I wouldn't be here.
It's an mmoRPG which means it's about the CHARACTER, not the player. Edited by TheShadowScout on May 28, 2016 5:35AM1 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
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Not at all. Yes it went up, so the landlord gets more money than before for doing the same work. Or I pay more for the same (even worse) thing. So either work of landlords of the past is devalued or my salary is. It's actually the combination of two, but you can pick either one if you want.TheShadowScout wrote: »...you are contradicting yourself.
Either your rent (aka, requirements you need to meet to have your place) went up, ot it didn't. Pick one.
The point is - things lose value over time, it's normal. Happens IRL, happened in ESO quite a few times, too.TheShadowScout wrote: »Everything is worth discussing.
Though it was not meant as analogy, but as a reminder that those things too are demanded by the gimme crowd with the "because I already did it on my main" argument, at one time or another. And yes, if I stumble across any of these, I argue against them as well.
And while you may see the titles as "reward" for the player, I see them as checkpoint mark for the character. Has this character finished that faction storyline and gained the "pact/dominion/covenant hero" title already, or not yet? Has this character finished the mages guild storyline and gained the accompaning title? Has this character gained the "Master Angler" title? Et cetera...
No, that makes no sense. If titles are checkpoint marks, then so are dyes, some costumes, some pets. The mechanism of obtaining them is the same.
Yes duh, makes no sense, so why keep it. And yes MA is different because it demands knowing how to play a certain class. Adding multiple completions to achievements - tusk that. Who would you do it for? It's a slap in the face of achievement hunters, it would force them to play alts. We just want an option to play alts if we want and not waste time, not be forced to play them.TheShadowScout wrote: »Sure it makes no sense from an achievement hunter point of view- now. (well, except for some things that already make sense... like, finishing maelstrom arena with your sorc, and then trying it with your templar to see how that build does with it, etc.) It might make sense if added multiple completions gave added incentive... which is one possible option for future expansion of the achievement system.
It does make more sense from a roleplayers point of view... IF they really want some title for one of their characters to show off... say they are making some marco polo type character you enjoy roleplaying as such, then they might like to flaunt a "Master Explorer" title, or they make some grizzled bounty hunter and want a "Monster Hunter" title to show off their backtory "profession"... stuff like that is important for roleplayers.
Well roleplayers can keep their approach. They aren't forced to use Monster Hunter on a character who didn't hunt monsters. THey aren't losing anything. They already see people who bought motifs in the Crown Store instead of grinding for chapters and they don't care. Because for all they know those motifs were obtained in-game. Same here - for all they know those titles could be obtained on that character. And they still can choose not to use it on their own characters if it's so important to them. They'll still see progression of 1 character and what titles are his.
It's awesome and some achievements are tied to cadwells. So in a way the game doesn't allow me to see all quests with one character, in a way, it forces me to do so. And I don't complain, I want all achievements. I just don't like that I can't enjoy playing alts or re-roll.TheShadowScout wrote: »Whut? The "play only one character" approach is very, very respected in ESO! What other game allows you to see all its sights/quests with one character through a mechanic like cadwells???TheShadowScout wrote: »Personally I would like non-grindy achievements. I would also like to see the current grindy ones become less grindy... just not in an "let's just spread them all over our different characters" way.
I mean, I hate grinding as much as any roleplayer, and I dislike farming for drops just as much - mindlessly repetetive actions make my brain feel like its liquefying and sloshing around my skull... I especially hate those trophy achievements, and wish there were opportunities to kill something with hugely increased trophy drop chance... like, take down this or that world boss, dungeon boss, etc., and have a 50% chance at a trophy for that monster type... or have a greatly increased chance for general spawn on, say, cyrodil dolmens... Or maybe some consumable that is super-annoying to get (aka psijic ambrosia - either work your bum off for it, or buy through crown store) but immensely increases your chances for trophy drops or general spawns...
That's the kind of thing I want to see to make my achievement hunting less grindy.
And I really like the idea of more non-grindy achievements... build-combo hunting in cyrodil? Bring it on! (and listen to the cries of despair from all those achievement hunters about how they cannot find nord sorcerors or argonian dragonknights... while drowning in breton templars, altmer sorcerors, khajiit nightblades or dunmer DKs). Anything else of the sort, right up my alley!
However, I am just stating that IF the whole achievement system was expanded to any kind of account overview, then the option for multiple completions being counted and rewarded would be a logical step. As much as you may dislike that.
It would be a bad step. It wouldnt' be that bad if achievements weren't grindy though. Say, multiple completions of vMA - that makes sense. Multiple grindy stuff like trophies, fishing etc - please no. I'd go back to two categories I distinguish: character and player-specific achievements. Counting multiple completions of character-specific achievements wouldn't be so bad.
And you still can have yours and NOT use shared titles.TheShadowScout wrote: »...and that pretty much sums it up for my position as well!1
