daemonios wrote: »

Fine. I'll keep lurking in the forums, catching these threads and adding my voice to those who don't want achievements to be account-wide

In this game we present ourselves as different characters, often with different skill sets. I don't think it makes sense to present my character as "Boethia's Scythe" when I've never set foot in DSA, "Master Angler" when I've never caught a fish, "Anchor Shatterer" when all I've done is each dolmen once to paint them white on my map...

Achievements were meant to be character-specific from the get-go. They were designed that way. If you make them account-wide all you get is a whole lot of nonsense IMHO.

Sure, your opinion is as valid as mine. But please read the thread. I already mention multiple times that most titles if not all shouldn't be shared. We just want to have our player achievement score, like in wow.
p.s. Seriously though, there's a huge difference between vDSA and fishing. It doesn't matter whatsoever which character you completed fishing achievements with.

Tandor wrote: »

I never have a problem with people asking for things they want, others have the opportunity to comment for or against and, as in this case, the devs can draw a clear view on where the balance of opinion lies.

As I said sure, let's see how it all ends. But you and the guy I quoted above should understand, that what you're doing is simply refusing to let others play the way they want without gaining anything. You wouldn't lose anything and wouldn't be forced to change anything if the achievement system was changed a little bit to become more like it is in wow.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Neither do achievements or titles change anything, they just show where the character has been.

As for sticker procurement... go on, earn a achievement without using any of your characters. Or read my metaphor again, and take notice that the relevant part is the sticking the sticker to your car.
If it helps, imagine you cannot buy any stickers at all, they can only be handed out by the "game". You drive there with your car(acter), you get the achievement sticker - on that car(acter). Want it on the other car(acter)? Drive there again with that one.

A character hasn't been anywhere. IT has been taken somewhere by a PLAYER.

Now this paragraph it like telling P.Kane to win NHL without a hockey stick. Duh, he can't do it. But he has more than one and it's him who wins the title, not either of his hockey sticks. I'm wondering why you still can't get it.

And no, you don't drive there again. You buy 2 stickers when you've driven there the first time. And put them on both cars of yours. You are the one who's driven there and YOU are the one who HAS the stickers, not your car.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Actually... that one is a point where I can see us finding agreement.
Because... I would have no objection at all against them adding a new "account achievements" tab - as long as that one was with new achievements, and not sharing the current, character-specific ones. Stuff like "completed the mainstory on all four classes" or "completed this or that character achievement with all four classes", "completed this or that PvP achievement from all three factions", "played XXX hours across all characters", "gained XXX chamion points" or "maxed X riding skills"... etc.
With an nice, big "Champion Achievements" score for people to brag about and compare the sizes of their... scorings.

Pretty much with a few corrections. 1 - we might as well just compare achievements that already exist. Like in wow 2 - it is not cool to force players to play more than one character and more than one faction. That IS a slap in the face to completionists who want 100% scores.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And this is where your logic proves to be faulty.
Since achievements Do Not affect character effect - for your DPS it is completely irrelevant what achgievements you have.
But gear on the other hand Does affect character effect - for your DPS it makes a great differece.
Go on, tell us how all that gear your characters have is purely decoration, and you can play through everything just as effectively without it...

The titles -are- decoration. As in, purely ornamental. Yes, some ornaments are hard to get. Take actual skill, or lots of time spent on them. Just like some decorations are hard to get. And others are easy enough so everyone can get them.

No it doesn't. If you care about numbers which I wasn't talking about in this thread, then ok, I'll agree that gear doesn't fit here. I meant gear just because of how it looks.
In this case it's costumes/skins/pets and appearance. Not the achievements. Achievements show what master achieved using his tools.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And that IS what I have been saying.
You got it with that character.
Not "you got it" - you got it With That Character.
That is the distinction that pops your "I did it, so all my characters should have it" bubble.

The you got it part is irreplaceable here. For most achievements the "with the character part" is replaceable. So the key part here is YOU, not your character. (see how it goes? YOUR character, not the character's you).

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Yes, the game allows a lot of account-shared stuff. That however is no reason to demand -everything- to be account shared. Especially not the ones that are actually having a function as character-specific stuff, be it skill based achievements, or collection based achievements...

And should allow more of such stuff. IT's us players playing the game and caring about achievement scores, not the characters. Characters don't care about anything and don't do anything.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Exactly.
Why are you still saying the blessing=title should carry over to your other cars then?

Are you effing serious? I'm tired of repeating it - no, this title should not carry over anywhere, because it, how you said, "changed" the car. The car is now blessed. It is important that this car was a part of it. When you talk about a sticker from a country - it does not matter which a car a driver used to get there and therefore that title should carry over.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And you are saying that. Because you keep saying "only achievements that require skill to get should remain character-specific" - visiting a place does not require skill, just going there. I used the "blessed by the pope" metaphor for that, exactly... all the achievements that just require going somewhere, waiting in line until you get the "blessing" (or lines to collect all the small blessings before you get the big one), then done.

I don't think you know how analogies work. In cars analogy skills are not skills in-game. I mean in that case NOTHING required skills talking about getting stickers. No, in cars analogy skills is taking this particular car and changing it. Like in this case the car got blessed.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Those tools would be your characters gear...
Because characters are NOT interchangeable as tools would be. For Einstein, it does not matter which pencil he writes with. For you... do you think your level 3 newbie toon could do the same stuff as your V16 main?

No gear are just upgrades of my tools. Characters don't have tools, because they don't control anything. A player controls the character AND his gear. And yes, it didn't matter which pencil he writes with. And yes that was my point - some achievements can't technically be obtained by level 3 alts, therefore those titles shouldn't be shared until some requirements are met. In case of vMA - vMA should be completed with that toon. In case of, say, fishing - that toon should reach there level at which he can technically complete that achievement. Really, if you read my comments you would see that I always said about limitation and it's not like you would see lvl 10 stormproofs all over the place.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I am afraid you messed up here - because ornamentation is by definition without effect, and gear... well, play the game with your characters stripped of their gear, and you will notice the difference in effect.

Tools also do not get "better" with use, they at best remain the same, and usually get worse in the real world (and we are all very happy this does not happen in game worlds) You get better at using the tools... but that's it.

Perhaps a better analogy would be mounts... you could see your characters as the virtual horses you ride through the virtual world of the game. They get better with experience. You get better at riding them. But they are still different horses... and if one were to get a nice mark stuck to it for something, the others don't automatically get the same.

Ok remove gear from the list. It's costumes, pets, skins, appearance of the character.

Yeah in other news, world is not the game. That's why it's called analogy. Cars also get worse worse with the use, but you still used that analogy.

ANd if you get a sticker somewhere - you can buy it for all your horses. And if you have a ranch with horses they all have your stamp.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Your opinion.
And possibly something like an account achievement score may come.
But account-shared achievements? Jury is still out on that one!
And like I keep mentioning... it makes a lot of sense to keep track of them per character, so one can check up on what one has done, or yet to do, which skyshards were missed, which crafting style chapter is still to be on the lookout for, etc.
You may disagree.
That does not make your opinion into fact.

There's no reason to introduce some new score. We already have enough achievements to complete and compare. Jury is not out lol. It's been done in other games long time ago. And yes, it all started with character-specific achievements, but that's just not what most MMO crowd wants. Ugh, and I said multiple times that you WILL see what your character is missing. Nothing will change for a specific character. There will simply be a metachivement thing above all your characters that will show achievement score combined (for the unique achievements).

TheShadowScout wrote: »

The main thing is, most of our argument is grounded in the fact that we have opposing points of view about the meaning of our characters. I from a roleplayers perspective, and you from a gamers perspective.
We will not agree on this.
So let's not.
I can respect that you see things differently.
I will never agree to your proclamation that your point of view is the only valid one.
Can you respect that I see things differently?

Obviously you see characters as animate things that do stuff by themselves and player isn't involved. I never said I disrespected that or you. I dare you to find anything like that in my posts lol. When did I say that my point of view is the only valid one? Were you fighting a strawman this whole time?

I am trying to say there should be a system that won't change anything for your characters but will allow me to see all my achievements. Nothing will change for you. You won't be forced to see assassin achievements as completed on your templar. You won't be forced to use the titles you don't want to share. Everything will stay the same for you, but will become more convenient for me. So it's a positive-sum situation: no one loses, some players gain. No reason not to implement it.

Absolutely. The whole point is to get them, not the process of getting them.

That's that case where it's about the destination, not the journey.

Artis wrote: »

A character hasn't been anywhere. IT has been taken somewhere by a PLAYER.

A Player hasn't been anywhere but his room, staring on his monitor. To get somewhere into the virtual game world, he has to take a CHARACTER.

Artis wrote: »

Now this paragraph it like telling P.Kane to win NHL without a hockey stick. Duh, he can't do it. But he has more than one and it's him who wins the title, not either of his hockey sticks. I'm wondering why you still can't get it.

That is valid for RL titles. It would be valid for -player- titles as well. But there are no player titles.
You keep saying, the achiement titles are like "this player won the race"
I keep saying, they are like "this car driven by that player won the race" - because if you "win the race" with a ferrari, it does not follow you did the same with a VW beetle. And THAT is why I do not like account-wide titles. Even when its an endurance race and not a skill race.

I really wouldn't mind if we had a second, seperate achievement tab for player based achievements... I just object to those who say they want the current achievements made account wide, because I really like using them to see what this or that character has done already, and yet has to do.

Artis wrote: »

And no, you don't drive there again. You buy 2 stickers when you've driven there the first time. And put them on both cars of yours. You are the one who's driven there and YOU are the one who HAS the stickers, not your car.

...read it again...

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...imagine you cannot buy any stickers at all, they can only be handed out by the "game"...

And there goes your "buy two stickers" idea.
You can imagine them as control point stamps if you prefer. Since that is how it works in the game. Go there with one car(acter), get the stamp for that car(acter). Some just come with a decoration that gets slapped on the car(acter) to display to other people in their car(acters) to get all awed and envious...

Artis wrote: »

Pretty much with a few corrections. 1 - we might as well just compare achievements that already exist.

Possibly, as long as it is seperate from the character-individual tabs, AND does not count invididual progress towards the achievement as common progress. So if you want that "kill 500 mudcrabs" achievement, do it on one character, like all of us. But I would not mind a "total achievement attained" tab - as long as it does not replace the character-specific one, but is only added, and as long as the titles are not shared.

Artis wrote: »

2 - it is not cool to force players to play more than one character and more than one faction. That IS a slap in the face to completionists who want 100% scores.

...that one is a good point. And one I have to concede as valid.
Though IF they made an account wide achievement score... well... such "done it with all options" achievements would certainly be rather likely to become part of it, and those who prefer not to play any alts just cannot get them, exactly like those who do not PvP cannot get any of the PvP achievements... I see no problem with that. You make your choices, you get your results. You want other results? Make other choices.

Artis wrote: »

No it doesn't. If you care about numbers which I wasn't talking about in this thread, then ok, I'll agree that gear doesn't fit here. I meant gear just because of how it looks.
In this case it's costumes/skins/pets and appearance. Not the achievements. Achievements show what master achieved using his tools.

Costumes and such definitely are ornamentation.
But again, a character is not a mere tool, since those are interchangable, and characters are too personalized for this to be true. You agree on this for skill based achievements. I just say it is also true for the others.

Artis wrote: »

The you got it part is irreplaceable here. For most achievements the "with the character part" is replaceable. So the key part here is YOU, not your character. (see how it goes? YOUR character, not the character's you).

If it is replacable, then show me how you got the same achievement when replacing "With The Character". Do it by yourself. Without using a character.
Doesn't work?
Then BOTH parts are irreplacable.
Can do it with a different character? Did it?
Great, now you have the achievement on that different character as well.
Could do it, but don't want to bother?
Then why should you be allowed to show off the achievement on that different character as well?

Artis wrote: »

And should allow more of such stuff. IT's us players playing the game and caring about achievement scores, not the characters. Characters don't care about anything and don't do anything.

And I think it should NOT allow any more. (Well... maybe one more thing, motiv books from the crown store. I mean... at those prices?)
And I care not about account achievement scores, I only care about character specific achievement scores.
Because I prefer to keep track of my characters -as character- and not have a "Master Crafter" sticker to my nooby gatherer character... (or see anyone else use titles on characters that had not earned them)
Like I said at the start - want it on both, do it on both, want it on all, do it on all.

Artis wrote: »

Are you effing serious? I'm tired of repeating it - no, this title should not carry over anywhere, because it, how you said, "changed" the car. The car is now blessed. It is important that this car was a part of it. When you talk about a sticker from a country - it does not matter which a car a driver used to get there and therefore that title should carry over.

Still inconsistent. The "blessing" represents no skill, just waiting in line. Just like "Master Angler". Does that mean you finally agree ALL titles should stay character specific? Because then we can end this line of discussion and maybe agree on more as well...

Artis wrote: »

I don't think you know how analogies work. In cars analogy skills are not skills in-game. I mean in that case NOTHING required skills talking about getting stickers. No, in cars analogy skills is taking this particular car and changing it. Like in this case the car got blessed.

I was referring to how the stricking a sticker to a car changes it as well. Because it is now a car with a sticker on it. THAT is why I keep trying to convey I mean the action of sticking the sticker to the car, not the purchase of the sticker...

Artis wrote: »

No gear are just upgrades of my tools.

Okay, let's use your tool metaphor, shall we?
Now... if you upgrade one tool... does that mean ALL your tools now have the same upgrade? No, it doesn't.
And if you go to some place, and do something, be it by skill or by simple patience, which makes someone we call "the game" give your tool a decorative stamp... does that mean all your other tools now have the stamp as well? No it doesn't.
Same for achievements.
Yes, you conceded the point for achievements that take skill.
I expand that to the others as well. Because a newbie level 3 should also NOT have "Master Angler" when it cannot even access most of the regions to fish in. Or "Explorer". Or "Monster Hunter". Or any of them.
Want them on your newbie toon?
Play for them on your newbie toon.
Don't care for doing them again? Fu... uhm... forget about getting them on your newbie toon then - I may like hunting achievements on my main, but I could noit care less what my testbed alts achieve or not - except when I check it to see if I missed something important, like a skyshard, or clearing some public dungeon group event... (or on the crafting alts - learned some motiv chapter)

Artis wrote: »

There's no reason to introduce some new score. We already have enough achievements to complete and compare. Jury is not out lol. It's been done in other games long time ago. And yes, it all started with character-specific achievements, but that's just not what most MMO crowd wants. Ugh, and I said multiple times that you WILL see what your character is missing. Nothing will change for a specific character. There will simply be a metachivement thing above all your characters that will show achievement score combined (for the unique achievements).

We disagree. And jury IS still out. Just because WoW has done it, doesn't mean other games do it. In fact, none of the games I played had done it. I could assume that the people who like things the WoW way are already busy playing WoW, and thus maybe not so much of a target group for other games because they spend all their available money on WoW already.

And again, I have no issue with an additional combined "account wide total score". None. At. All.
I have an issue with account wide titles, and with account wide contribution as that would make many of the achievements much, much easier to get, and I would not like to see them cheapened that way.
And considering how they changed the game to prevent people from sending trophies gotten from their alts over to their main for use in adding to the achievements, but instead made them "effect on pickup"... I would say someone at ZOS might see it like me as well, wouldn't you?

Artis wrote: »

I am trying to say there should be a system that won't change anything for your characters but will allow me to see all my achievements. Nothing will change for you. You won't be forced to see assassin achievements as completed on your templar. You won't be forced to use the titles you don't want to share. Everything will stay the same for you, but will become more convenient for me. So it's a positive-sum situation: no one loses, some players gain. No reason not to implement it.

That one I can agree with. A system that allows to -see- "achievements achieved" account wide.
Not a system that -makes- achievements account wide with the sharing of titles or effort, or prevents me from checking on my individual progress. That one is the part I am arguing against. Not the other.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

A Player hasn't been anywhere but his room, staring on his monitor. To get somewhere into the virtual game world, he has to take a CHARACTER.

Yeah, staring on his monitor AND making it so that the monitor is showing him certain things and certain actions are performed. All that is happening because of the player.
Yes, he has to take a character just like P.Kane has to take his hockey stick to play hockey. These are the rules of it - you can't play hockey without a hockey stick. So what was the point? We were over it many times alreadA character doesn't do anything without a player. It's a player who used a character to perform some actions somewhere. A character is not a subject, it's an object.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

That is valid for RL titles. It would be valid for -player- titles as well. But there are no player titles.
You keep saying, the achiement titles are like "this player won the race"
I keep saying, they are like "this car driven by that player won the race" - because if you "win the race" with a ferrari, it does not follow you did the same with a VW beetle. And THAT is why I do not like account-wide titles. Even when its an endurance race and not a skill race.

No, it's a driver who won the race. If you put another driver in the same car - he won't be able to win. Yes, ferrari and beetle are different cars. That's why car specific titles wont' be shared: Ferrari race winner or beetle race winner. Just like only the character who a player used to complete vMA will be able to use The Flawless Conqueror. Because in this case it MATTERS which character/car you used. IN some cases it doesn't matter which car or character was used. For example - all grinding achievements.

I feel like I'm repeating myself for the 3rd time or something. It's been shown already that some achievements/titles are character-specific and some arent'.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I really wouldn't mind if we had a second, seperate achievement tab for player based achievements... I just object to those who say they want the current achievements made account wide, because I really like using them to see what this or that character has done already, and yet has to do.

Yes, you will still see achievements of a specific character. You would just have a meta-tab that shows all unique achievements combined. That was mentioned more than once already. Why do you still not understand that your character won't have all achievements completed. You will still see what THIS toon didn't complete.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

And no, you don't drive there again. You buy 2 stickers when you've driven there the first time. And put them on both cars of yours. You are the one who's driven there and YOU are the one who HAS the stickers, not your car.

...read it again...

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...imagine you cannot buy any stickers at all, they can only be handed out by the "game"...

And there goes your "buy two stickers" idea.
You can imagine them as control point stamps if you prefer. Since that is how it works in the game. Go there with one car(acter), get the stamp for that car(acter). Some just come with a decoration that gets slapped on the car(acter) to display to other people in their car(acters) to get all awed and envious...

Why? Would I imagine artificial limits like that? If they made sense I would, but they don't. Control point stamps aren't for showing off and they don't show you achievements. Yes it does work like you said in the game for some dumb reason. And that's exactly what we are trying to make them fix. It makes no sense because most achievements and titles do not depend on the character. And it's dumb that we can't play alts or reroll - that would mean we won't be progressing as players for YEARS. A player who got, say, 17k achievement score is now forced to play this character to reach 100% score and keep up as new achievements are added.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Possibly, as long as it is seperate from the character-individual tabs, AND does not count invididual progress towards the achievement as common progress. So if you want that "kill 500 mudcrabs" achievement, do it on one character, like all of us. But I would not mind a "total achievement attained" tab - as long as it does not replace the character-specific one, but is only added, and as long as the titles are not shared.

And that's what I said would be happening in my first comment. See, you say "go play wow" and argue, but if you googled or something you'd see that it's exactly the system that works good and players complain way less than here.
Your character won't share achievements. You will see if something is still not completed on a character, you will see a notification whenever you complete something. So you will still be able to keep track of this toon's individual progress. You will lose absolutely nothing. But ON TOP of that you will see your combined score + share some titles and dyes.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...that one is a good point. And one I have to concede as valid.
Though IF they made an account wide achievement score... well... such "done it with all options" achievements would certainly be rather likely to become part of it, and those who prefer not to play any alts just cannot get them, exactly like those who do not PvP cannot get any of the PvP achievements... I see no problem with that. You make your choices, you get your results. You want other results? Make other choices.

Yeah no, that would make sense in a speech about how to make money or something. When the system is present and you have to react to it to get result. Now it is clear that forcing players to play more than one toon is unfair and you say make other choices? How about just not force me? And especially more than 1 faction. What if I play 8 toons but I am loyal to my faction, so they are all there. And then you add this type of achievement? Like ok, maybe something like "level N toons" is fine, but forcing to play different factions/races/classes is unfair. One of the reasons - some players already used their slots.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Costumes and such definitely are ornamentation.
But again, a character is not a mere tool, since those are interchangable, and characters are too personalized for this to be true. You agree on this for skill based achievements. I just say it is also true for the others.

Yes they are a tool. Characters are interchangeable in MOST achievements. It doesn't matter which character you used to open locked chests, fish, grind trophies, buy motifs etc. They are completely interchangeable in those scenarios. Whatever you say is "personalized" about them is simply ornamentation in this context.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

If it is replacable, then show me how you got the same achievement when replacing "With The Character". Do it by yourself. Without using a character.
Doesn't work?
Then BOTH parts are irreplacable.
Can do it with a different character? Did it?
Great, now you have the achievement on that different character as well.
Could do it, but don't want to bother?
Then why should you be allowed to show off the achievement on that different character as well?

They are absolutely replaceable. Doesn't matter which character you used for some achievements. They still require no skill of playing that particular character from you. Yes you are allowed to show achievements that don't require skill with a particular character if you completed them on another character. Because its' YOU who completed them and it's YOU who your character represents in the game. It's YOUR tool-avatar. It is fair if your tools display your stamp.
Also, your different toons wouldn't have achievements complete. They would just share some titles, like they already share dyes/mementos/costumes/pets. Most of those are obtain by one character and are still shared. Do you think it would be cool and more fun if we couldn't share them? I guarantee that most players wouldn't like it, just like many players would like if we could share some titles and have a tab with achievements of your main displayed on alts.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And I think it should NOT allow any more. (Well... maybe one more thing, motiv books from the crown store. I mean... at those prices?)
And I care not about account achievement scores, I only care about character specific achievement scores.
Because I prefer to keep track of my characters -as character- and not have a "Master Crafter" sticker to my nooby gatherer character... (or see anyone else use titles on characters that had not earned them)
Like I said at the start - want it on both, do it on both, want it on all, do it on all.

Oh that makes no sense. So now motif sharing is ok because you pay real money? What about other motifs then? You aren't consistent. Absolutely all motifs should be shared then. THey require no special skill. All or none. No question about it.
What is "Master Crafter"? What are you talking about? Is there such a title in ESO?
And nah, it's ok if an alt has it. It requires no special skill to get it AND players will know that YOU can craft for them with one of your toons. They'll whisper the alt, you will relog on a crafter and craft for them. It's a player who controls characters and crafts using them. Without a player characters can't craft anything.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Still inconsistent. The "blessing" represents no skill, just waiting in line. Just like "Master Angler". Does that mean you finally agree ALL titles should stay character specific? Because then we can end this line of discussion and maybe agree on more as well...

The blessing represents that this car was changed. If you replace transmission in a car and have a sticker for it - then only that car can have it. Same with blessing. Master angler doesn't require a specific skill/character and therefore can be shared. When the car is blessed it is important that it was this particular car that the driver took there. It doesn't matter which character you used for fishing or grinding. In fact, you could even use a combination of toons for fishing. It's the same dumb grind for all of them. Therefore this title is not character specific.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I was referring to how the stricking a sticker to a car changes it as well. Because it is now a car with a sticker on it. THAT is why I keep trying to convey I mean the action of sticking the sticker to the car, not the purchase of the sticker...

No, sticker is just a piece of paper. If the car was BLESSED that's something that changed with it and that is unique to this car. You can buy multiple stickers for all your cars and even put some on your bicycle. But the pope is the only pope and if he blessed only one car - that makes it different and IS car-specific.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Okay, let's use your tool metaphor, shall we?
Now... if you upgrade one tool... does that mean ALL your tools now have the same upgrade? No, it doesn't.
And if you go to some place, and do something, be it by skill or by simple patience, which makes someone we call "the game" give your tool a decorative stamp... does that mean all your other tools now have the stamp as well? No it doesn't.
Same for achievements.
Yes, you conceded the point for achievements that take skill.
I expand that to the others as well. Because a newbie level 3 should also NOT have "Master Angler" when it cannot even access most of the regions to fish in. Or "Explorer". Or "Monster Hunter". Or any of them.
Want them on your newbie toon?
Play for them on your newbie toon.
Don't care for doing them again? Fu... uhm... forget about getting them on your newbie toon then - I may like hunting achievements on my main, but I could noit care less what my testbed alts achieve or not - except when I check it to see if I missed something important, like a skyshard, or clearing some public dungeon group event... (or on the crafting alts - learned some motiv chapter)

Exactly, it doesn't. Therefore we don't get copies of our gear for every character (we still can share it through the bank though...). Gear = upgrade in this metaphor. Decorative stamp = appearance. And no you create it for each character separately.
No it's not the same for achievements. Because achievements aren't decoration or upgrades. They showed what a master achieved with a tool. NHL champion only uses one hockey stick at a time, but every stick he uses after he got the title is a stick of a champion.
Yes, that is fair expansion. I absolutely agree with it and I think I mentioned it in one of my previous comments. But if you missed it I'll repeat again: therefore Master Angler can only be used by a toon who can technically complete the achievements, i.e. has to have access to all zones (currently is completing cadwell's silver, soon - just completing the main quest). Same with Explorer. Monster hunter can be completed by a toon well before he completes vet zones, so it can be shared earlier.

Yes, the whole point is to hunt achievements on one toon only. But that shouldn't restrict us from playing alts. We already are "punished" by having to level them again. Besides, I don't propose that alts should share skill points(skyshards) and other things that affect the numbers and character's strength. Only titles that they could get technically.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

We disagree. And jury IS still out. Just because WoW has done it, doesn't mean other games do it. In fact, none of the games I played had done it. I could assume that the people who like things the WoW way are already busy playing WoW, and thus maybe not so much of a target group for other games because they spend all their available money on WoW already. .

Please, at least google. You don't know what you're arguing about. People who played wow went to ESO massively. Because back in 2014, when dungeons and vet zones were hard, 4man dungeons were so much fun and challenge. Man, once I saw the game on beta test, I unsubbed from WoW, just not to waste time because I knew I would start playing ESO. But see, wow had good things too. Sure, it looks worse than ESO. But all the systems were very well thought off and raids were nice and pvp more or less stable. That game is way older and more mature than ESO and there are some things that they made almost perfect.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And again, I have no issue with an additional combined "account wide total score". None. At. All.
I have an issue with account wide titles, and with account wide contribution as that would make many of the achievements much, much easier to get, and I would not like to see them cheapened that way.
And considering how they changed the game to prevent people from sending trophies gotten from their alts over to their main for use in adding to the achievements, but instead made them "effect on pickup"... I would say someone at ZOS might see it like me as well, wouldn't you?.

Well then why are you arguing? That's exactly what I want. I don't even insist on titles, but I am convinced they should be shared between the characters that can technically get the title. No reason not to do it. It won't make any achievements easier to get because you will still have to do the same amount of work. A+B will still be equal to C.
And no, it's not cheapening them, because you will only be online with one character at a time and he will only be able to use the title if he can technically get it (grind achievements, collections, motifs etc) or if he got it (skill-based titles).

Not sure about the last thing. They did that, but then later they shared all mementos, pets, costumes. So that overwrites trophies. And then again, if they are doing that to force players to grind instead of playing and having fun - that's a bad thing to support and you should change you view in that case: understand that they are doing it to make the game artificially "longer".

TheShadowScout wrote: »

That one I can agree with. A system that allows to -see- "achievements achieved" account wide.
Not a system that -makes- achievements account wide with the sharing of titles or effort, or prevents me from checking on my individual progress. That one is the part I am arguing against. Not the other.

Well thank you. That's exactly what is needed. None of your characters will get achievements completed. It's gonna look like that more or less.

And no, you won't be forced to use those titles, so how would that be a problem? You'd be able to use them if you want, but you'd know they aren't earned by this character in particular. You'd still be able to keep ALL your character's individual progress. Nothing would prevent you from checking it. You literally wouldn't lose anything.

Tandor wrote: »

I'm not refusing to let others play the way they want, I'm resisting attempts by mainly one person to have the game changed from the way it was set up so that it's more like another game than this one and in a way that will adversely affect the way I play and enjoy this game.

If you simply want an account notification system that tells you on a screen which character has earned which achievements, that's fine. If you want an account achievement system that rewards player-earned things in addition to the existing character-specific achievements then fine. But if you want anything that is currently character-specific altered to be account-wide across all the characters then I'm against it.

Umm yes you are. Nothing would've changed for you but you're against the changes others would like. And no, I'm not the only person who wants it. Look at the reactions. If anything I got more agrees and others than the opposite side. I'm just the only one voicing this view.

Oh are you against it? Link me to your older posts where you were against making costumes/pets/skins/mementos account-wide please. And just because the game was designed some way, it doesn't mean it wasn't ***. Wow had its achievement system designed one way too. They changed it when they realized what players would really like.

Once more, unto the breach!

Artis wrote: »

Yeah, staring on his monitor AND making it so that the monitor is showing him certain things and certain actions are performed. All that is happening because of the player.
Yes, he has to take a character just like P.Kane has to take his hockey stick to play hockey. These are the rules of it - you can't play hockey without a hockey stick. So what was the point? We were over it many times alreadA character doesn't do anything without a player. It's a player who used a character to perform some actions somewhere. A character is not a subject, it's an object.

And a archievement is not a player trophy, its a character decration. Yes, the decorations on that "hockey stick" happen to be applied because of the player. Doesn't mean it happens on all his other hockey sticks as well, nor shoult it.

If you as the player bring your hockes stick to have it signed by some people (and in case it is unclear - this is meaning all those "go to place, do something, go to different place, do something" achievements like "master angler"), that doesn't mean all your hockey sticks are now signed as well, does it?

Artis wrote: »

No, it's a driver who won the race. If you put another driver in the same car - he won't be able to win. Yes, ferrari and beetle are different cars. That's why car specific titles wont' be shared: Ferrari race winner or beetle race winner. Just like only the character who a player used to complete vMA will be able to use The Flawless Conqueror. Because in this case it MATTERS which character/car you used. IN some cases it doesn't matter which car or character was used. For example - all grinding achievements.

I feel like I'm repeating myself for the 3rd time or something. It's been shown already that some achievements/titles are character-specific and some arent'.

No, ALL ARE!
You are just saying some should not be.
I just do not agree.

If you have a car with a "this is the car that visited every capital in europe" distinction, then you cannot make the claim for your other car as well. Yes, the driver most likely also visited every city (unbless he paid some korean to drive, which is prohibited by the ToS, and thus I hope ne does) - but that Does Not mean all his other cars also have visited every capital city.
And you keep saying, because the -driver- visited every city, it should.
I just do not agree.

Artis wrote: »

Why? Would I imagine artificial limits like that? If they made sense I would, but they don't. Control point stamps aren't for showing off and they don't show you achievements. Yes it does work like you said in the game for some dumb reason. And that's exactly what we are trying to make them fix. It makes no sense because most achievements and titles do not depend on the character. And it's dumb that we can't play alts or reroll - that would mean we won't be progressing as players for YEARS. A player who got, say, 17k achievement score is now forced to play this character to reach 100% score and keep up as new achievements are added.

Its nothing to be fixed.
You just don't like the way it is done in ESO.
I just like it the way it is done in ESO.

You are not "forced" to do anything. You can choose to do something, or you can choose not to do something. And if you want that "100%"... you gotta decide if its worth the effort, not whine about how much effort it is and demand they make it less effort.

Artis wrote: »

And that's what I said would be happening in my first comment. See, you say "go play wow" and argue, but if you googled or something you'd see that it's exactly the system that works good and players complain way less than here.
Your character won't share achievements. You will see if something is still not completed on a character, you will see a notification whenever you complete something. So you will still be able to keep track of this toon's individual progress. You will lose absolutely nothing. But ON TOP of that you will see your combined score + share some titles and dyes.

And I keep arguing against the sharing of titles.
And I will keep arguing against the sharing of titles.
And I keep arguning against sharing of effort.
And i will keep arguing against the sharing of effort.

Maybe someday the powers that be will agree with you and change things.
Maybe the powers that be will keep agreeing with me and not change things.
Jury is still out on that one until they make a decision, despitre what you are trying to argue.

Artis wrote: »

Yeah no, that would make sense in a speech about how to make money or something. When the system is present and you have to react to it to get result. Now it is clear that forcing players to play more than one toon is unfair and you say make other choices? How about just not force me? And especially more than 1 faction. What if I play 8 toons but I am loyal to my faction, so they are all there. And then you add this type of achievement? Like ok, maybe something like "level N toons" is fine, but forcing to play different factions/races/classes is unfair. One of the reasons - some players already used their slots.

Same argument like "forcing people" to PvP to get the PvP achievements, or "forcing people" to run dungeons to get the dungeon archievements.
Doesn't work there either.
Want something? Do what you gotta to get it.
Don't want to do something? Live without those achievements.

BtW, they are gonna sell more slots...

Artis wrote: »

Yes they are a tool. Characters are interchangeable in MOST achievements. It doesn't matter which character you used to open locked chests, fish, grind trophies, buy motifs etc. They are completely interchangeable in those scenarios. Whatever you say is "personalized" about them is simply ornamentation in this context.

Exactly.
And if you ornament one "tool", the ornamentation does NOT magically carry over to your other tools.
Want to ornament them all?
Gotta ornament each one of them...
You were saying?

Artis wrote: »

Oh that makes no sense. So now motif sharing is ok because you pay real money?

Not because you pay real money - but because you pay That Much real money. That price ought to buy it account wide IMO. But not in an "shared" way that some tools could maybe misunderstand and abuse in an "let's make all motivs account-wide" argument, but in unlocking a feature that allows you to draw as many bound copies of the book as you like so you can learn it on all your characters.

Artis wrote: »

The blessing represents that this car was changed. If you replace transmission in a car and have a sticker for it - then only that car can have it. Same with blessing. Master angler doesn't require a specific skill/character and therefore can be shared. When the car is blessed it is important that it was this particular car that the driver took there. It doesn't matter which character you used for fishing or grinding. In fact, you could even use a combination of toons for fishing. It's the same dumb grind for all of them. Therefore this title is not character specific.

Not true. If you use a combination of toons for fishing, you would not gain the title.
And neither you should.
Just like if you use a combination of cars for one endurance race, you'd get disqualified and not gain the title as well.

Want the Angler title? Fish for it on one character. It's just like waiting in line for the popes blessing... and when you finally catch that last fish, your character will get the title and then be changed by that "blessing" from the game. Doers not mean all your other characters should get it.

YOU on the other hand can stick a "achieved Master Angler in ESO" patch to your jacket if you like. Because as you say, you did it. And walk around that wherever you go, proudly showing it off to all who might care (which most likely, will not be many, but hey, you never know...). That would then be a RL "title" of sorts, which would be fitting for a player. The tiltes in ESO on the other hand... are for characters.

Artis wrote: »

No, sticker is just a piece of paper. If the car was BLESSED that's something that changed with it and that is unique to this car. You can buy multiple stickers for all your cars and even put some on your bicycle. But the pope is the only pope and if he blessed only one car - that makes it different and IS car-specific.

And the blessing is just a couple of words from a man in white clothes. Doesn't change anything, really... except maybe your belief about your car, depending on your religion.
I would argue that the sticker changed the car MORE, because people can see it, no matter their beliefs.
(as for the pope being the only pope... not even that has been true throughout all of history)

Now, some stickers can be bought and used as seen fit - those would be the costumes/pets/mounts/etc.

But some stickers cannot be bought, but will only be stuck on your car(acter) by this mysterious "the Game" as proof you completed something with it, be it the skill-based race or the simple patience based "visit every capital city" tour.
Those change the car(acter) as they are marks of "proof" about where it has been, and what it had done.
Yes, the driver also did it. With That Particulat Car(acter).
The driver can thus claim he dunnit, and sew a patch to his RL jacket.
Still doesn't mean the sticker magically appears on all his other cars as well.
Still doesn't mean it should.

Artis wrote: »

Exactly, it doesn't. Therefore we don't get copies of our gear for every character (we still can share it through the bank though...). Gear = upgrade in this metaphor. Decorative stamp = appearance. And no you create it for each character separately.
No it's not the same for achievements. Because achievements aren't decoration or upgrades. They showed what a master achieved with a tool. NHL champion only uses one hockey stick at a time, but every stick he uses after he got the title is a stick of a champion.

But does every other stick he uses afterwards also get the "this is the stick that won the championship" stamp?
No?
Then why should titles be shared?
I say, they should not.
You keep saying they should.
And using faulty examples to desperately try and prove your point.

Artis wrote: »

Well then why are you arguing? That's exactly what I want. I don't even insist on titles, but I am convinced they should be shared between the characters that can technically get the title.

...and that is why we are arguing!
Want them for characters who can get them? Get them with that characters!
Don't want to spand the time and effort once again? Have those characters do without.

Artis wrote: »

No reason not to do it. It won't make any achievements easier to get because you will still have to do the same amount of work. A+B will still be equal to C.

Not so. If achievments were shared, then some would become much, much easier. The ones involving luck, like trophies or dolmen generals... definitely. No need to do lots of dolmens hunting the generals if you could just tally all that appeared and fell to your alts... The ones just involving kill numbers - too, since you would have a lot less "hunting for extra kills" but instead fill them up just by doing the casual storyline questing across several toons.

Artis wrote: »

Not sure about the last thing. They did that, but then later they shared all mementos, pets, costumes. So that overwrites trophies. And then again, if they are doing that to force players to grind instead of playing and having fun - that's a bad thing to support and you should change you view in that case: understand that they are doing it to make the game artificially "longer".

Not so.
Pets and costumes (as well as mounts) were shared before, as part of the crown store implementation. Then they changed the trophy thing. And later on, they added mementos to collections, possibly because of the "clogging up inventory" issue.

Now... I really, really hate grinding, so I am tempted to go against my principles for trophies. But I much, much rather see a different solution - like, say, increased trophy drop chances with boss mobs, as in "kill that world/dungeon boss, and have 50% chance of trophy drop, so you'll get it soon enough" so I don't have to hunt down a few hundred more daedroths to get my oblivion collection filled... (did I mention my luck with drops is usually awful?)

Artis wrote: »

Well thank you. That's exactly what is needed.

Yes, that point we agree on. Personally I would love it to have an "account overview" screen, like mentioned, accessible from the character select screen, where you can see exactly which character had done what achievement, and which character hasn't. They could switch the dyes over to that one...
And it could have an "account total score", for people to brag about when comparing epeen sizes... (for those who are into that sort of thing)

Artis wrote: »

And no, you won't be forced to use those titles, so how would that be a problem? You'd be able to use them if you want, but you'd know they aren't earned by this character in particular. You'd still be able to keep ALL your character's individual progress. Nothing would prevent you from checking it. You literally wouldn't lose anything.

That one we will keep disagreeing with - people should NOT be able to show titles on characters who haven't earned them in their (and by that I mean the characters) own right.
But if neither of us has convinced the other of their opinion, we won't. So let's just stop wasting effort arguing about it, hm? Unless of course you are just here to have a good argument...

Artis wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I'm not refusing to let others play the way they want, I'm resisting attempts by mainly one person to have the game changed from the way it was set up so that it's more like another game than this one and in a way that will adversely affect the way I play and enjoy this game.

If you simply want an account notification system that tells you on a screen which character has earned which achievements, that's fine. If you want an account achievement system that rewards player-earned things in addition to the existing character-specific achievements then fine. But if you want anything that is currently character-specific altered to be account-wide across all the characters then I'm against it.

Umm yes you are. Nothing would've changed for you but you're against the changes others would like. And no, I'm not the only person who wants it. Look at the reactions. If anything I got more agrees and others than the opposite side. I'm just the only one voicing this view.

Nope, we are realy simply resisting the suggestion that an existing game feature should be changed from what it is now, just because some people want to have it easy.
We both said it: account overview for achievements - fine; additional account-wide achievements - sure; but making our current character-specific achievements account wide - nope!

Artis wrote: »

And just because the game was designed some way, it doesn't mean it wasn't ***. Wow had its achievement system designed one way too. They changed it when they realized what players would really like.

If it was "what players would like" you wouldn't get that much opposition to your posts, and you wouldn't have to strugge so much to try and argue your point.
Obviously ESO players must be of a different breed then WoW players then!
But hey, if you run out of faulty arguments and have to resort to insulting the game system now... well... generally that is not a good way to convince others of your point of view, you know...

Iluvrien wrote: »

Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. Although I am sure you, as a person who has steeped themselves in the study of logic, will be aware of that. For my part, I have been just quietly watching the discussion and not really feeling the need to jump in, until now, because I felt that people like @TheShadowScout and the others were making many of the points I would... and felt no need to further clutter the forums with "me too"s.

Yep, and it's applied the other way around too. Some people agree with me, you must be blind not to see it. That's why topics like that appear every now and then.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

No, an achievement shows what a player achieved With That Particular Character.
You just want is -changed- to show what the player achieved instead.

No an achievement shows what a player has done. In most cases it doesn't mean which toon was used. It doesn't matter which hockey stick was used by P.Kane to win a stanley cup. Moreover, if - and it happened to me - the achievement is gone on 1 character, does it mean that I haven't spent effort? No it doesn't. The effort was spent.

If someone learnt a rare motif, crafted gear for another player and then deleted the crafter, is the crafted gear gone? No, the effort was spent and the gear is crafted, but who crafted it if that character doesn't exist? Everything done in this game is done by a player. Characters spend no effort, players do.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Putting on a costume is not a physical change, its a temporary decoration. Like tying a bow to it. It can be removed again when you tire of having a boy on your stick.
A signature on the other hand... especially one done as proof that, yes, you Were there, and aou Did do whatever...

There is no contradiction. It's a temporary physical change. The title can be removed as well. Wanna look at my character in-game and try and guess which achievements I have? For all you know I can have none or all of them.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

True. But are all of them "the stick what won you the championship"?
No?
What about the plastic kiddie hockey stick you also have... would it be right to call that one a "championship stick"?
No?

Like I keep saying... there is a difference.

It doesn't matter, whichever stick is yours is a champion's stick and will be sold on the auction when you're dead as a champion's stick. Moreover, during the NHL season you use more than 1 stick. THere's no 1 stick you won the championship with. And no, there's no such thing as "the stick what won you the championship" not just because you used more than one, but also because it's YOU WHO WON the championship, not a stick. Sticks are interchangeable in this equation, but a player isn't. Another player wouldn't do as well with the same sticks.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

That is what you say.
I say different.

You say any car can have an "this car visited rome" sticker if the driver visited rome.

I say a "this car visited rome" sticker on the car that didn't visit rome is a lie, no matter if the driver had been there with his other car.

This is what it is. Put a car and driver separately and see which one of them will get to the destination first.Or should I say - at all? And yes if a sticker specifically says "this car" - it's one thing, but if a sticker just says "rome" or has an italian flag or something - then it doesn't matter which car you put it on and it's not gonna be a lie.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

If you allow account wide achievements like you seem to want, then the effort would be shared.
Think of it as a hot dog eating contest...
If you could win by eating one hot dog a day (or per character), and then total the amount, it would be easy. Shared effort. But winning something that way would not be worth much...

Yes, you could argue it as "rewarded fully" - I argue it as "trying to role-lawyer your way to victory". Every -sane- person would throw a contestant like that out.

No, it won't be shared. It's THE PLAYER who spent the effort. He doesn't share effort with other players. It's just him alone. In a hot dog contest if it lasted many days, other players would also eat hot dogs for more than 1 day, so it's not granted that I would've won.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Noone is forcing anyone to do anything. All the things people do in ESO are done of their own will and desire.
If they desire some achievement they should have to do what is needed.
If they do not desire to do something, they should have to do without that archievement.
And if they do something on their main, but don't feel like doing it again on their alt... then their alt should do without.
Easy.

As for slots... you can either delete an old character, or buy new slots. Your choice. Still noone forcing anyone to do anything.

Yes, if you have a player who is the achievement hunter and you know they are players like that - then you force them to pvp/pve if there are achievements for those things. But that isn't that bad until you start requiring more than 1 character.

No, it's a game, not ***. Developers are supposed to create a fun atmosphere, so players can have fun and achieve their goals and not be forced to do anything. Completionists are a huge percent of players and zos knows that. And players asked for achievement system way before release, thats' why we have it. The only problem they didn't have enough time to make it account-wide like it was supposed to be in 2014.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Again, achievements show what a "master" has done With That Tool.
And titles would be a note written on the tool by "the game" to prove something was done.

If you achieve something with a tool that is special, it does not make all your tools special. If you slay a dragon with your mastercrafted sword, it does not make every other sword of yours a "dragonslayer" Especially not the wooden toy sword.

Yes, you might be a dragonslayer. So stitch the title to your RL vest. Or have that account wide tab. But do not ask for your toy sword to becalled a dragonslayer blade...
The same applies to other names too, you know.
If one sword gets the title of "grass-cutting sword" for reasons we won't go into too closely, it does not mean all your other swords can claim the title as well, now does it. Not without doing the same that won that swors its title..

No, in most achievements it does not matter which tool was used. Therefore, if it's like that right now - it has to be fixed asap. It's extremely annoying.

It doesn't even make your tool special. It makes YOU special. If you killed a dragon and then lost a sword - the dragon is still dead, you still are the one who killed him. The effort still was spent.

And yes it does. Any of my swords can cut the grass. It's my skill that makes it possible. All that's needed from a sword is to be sharp enough and be there.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Ad hominem when you run out of logic?
In any case, I am saying, At That Price the crown motiv should be an unlock that allows every character to learn it. Had they cost, oh, only 10 bucks worth of crowns for the rare ones, I would be of a different opinion. At 50 dollars on the other hand, I would demand more.
Not that it matters, since I would rather not waste crowns on something I can get with effort in the game, and have fun pursung it. So what if it took me eighteen months before I found an imperial motiov for my crafing character? So what if there's still several styles I am working on?

And yes, I am opposed to sharing motivs. And crafting research, since that has been asked for before as well. And when I want something on more then ne character, I friggin well -work- for it on more then one character.
Just like if I wanted a second TV for my bedroom, I would have to work for getting that instead of claiming they owe me one for free because "I already done the work for my living room"

I never run out of logic. It's just not possible.

Again, what you're saying is purely subjective. For Bill Gates 50 bucks is nothing. Well for anyone with high income. No, sharing crafting research would be too much. Might as well share skill lines etc. Which is not that bad of an idea, tbh, to use characters as gear since it's the players competing anyway lol, but no, it wouldn't work for this game.

Ugh again this. And you then tell me something about logic? There's a huge difference between IRL and game. And in TVs example it is room-specific. You put a certain TV in a certain room. Also, they don't owe you anything. You bought a TV once and it's yours. In ESO you're basically paying their salary so in a way you're an employer lol. And they are supposed to provide you with the fun experience. Doing something boring and repetitive is not fun. Why would you want players to do that? "If they want blahblahblah". It's a game, not real like, not work, players aren't getting paid for doing this crap. Are you trying to convince us, players, that it's a good thing we need to spend that much TIME in game without having fun? Without progressing after all!

TheShadowScout wrote: »

No you shouldn't, just like you shouldn't gain the hot dog contest winner title for eating the most hot dogs over the course of the last three months.

I absolutely should. There's absolutely no reason for me not to. Just like I will gain the title if I win the contest with the rules like that: where everyone will count all hot dogs they are in last 3 months. Everyone is in the same conditions. I wouldn't qualify for a title for eating hotdogs within 15secs.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...another personal insult? I must be winning the argument then! Good to know.
It may not matter to you.
But for people who can tell the virtual and the real world apart, it may matter a great deal.
I say again...
You say any tool can have an "this tool caught all the fish" mark if the driver caught all the fish

I say a "this tool caught all the fish" mark on the tool that didn't catch all the fish is a lie, no matter if the player had been doing it with their other tool.

Feel free to sew a "this player caught all the fish" mark on your RL jacket though - that is what your argument supports. Not account-wide titles though.

Yeah, maybeyou started first. And no, you aren't. You are just not capable of getting very simple logic and this particular example reveals it. But really, not insulting you - you should seriously consult a specialist about it. No joke, it might be serious.

Of course you need to tell virtual and real world apart. Nothing in virtual world exists. There're players and they control all characters. So characters spend no effort - players do.

See? Seriously though, do something about that thing with you and logic. Again, you are talking about a tool-specific sticker, whereas most of them are not. A player can be doing it with many tools changing them every now and then. In the end - the fish is caught and he's the one who caught it. Tools don't get honorary titles, masters do.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Please do not try too twist my words.
I am saying, the sticker does not matter, but the car is changed by placing it. Because then others can see the sticker. And if the sticker is as I outlined, not placed by the driver as decoration, but bhy an race official or mechanic inspector as proof of this particular car having passed a checkpoint, inspection, whatever... then your argument of interchangability of cars will get you in trouble with the race officials or DMV.

No offence, but really - get it checked. That's exactly what I said - when a particular car is important - your stickers are car-specific. Like inspection or something like that. There are also stickers that can be put on any car and it won't be illegal. Those are shared.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Funny, I am thinking the same about you.
Classic case of projection, I would think...

And I have already established that if they ADDED something new but DID NOT change what we have now, I would agree.

You keep arguing that they should change things because right now "many players can't enjoy the game", and yet you keep arguing "nothing would change for me". Either things change, or they remain the same. Having both is a bit of an oxymoron, don't you think?

Now... if you started arguing that the things which are there now could remain the same, but something should be added that helps you and your ilk enjoy the game more... then we might find agreement and could stop arguing.

They won't change anything for you. You will still keep what you had and you won't be forced to look at your total achievements or use the titles. Your enjoyment won't decrease, while ours will increase + it can bring more players to the game (or back to the game). Positive-sum strategy for sure.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Personally I would prefer it if these were not account wide.
But I can see it as neccessary evil for the crown store powered collections system
And I am not suffering delusions of grandeur to think making an argument against it woule make them spend the effort needed to redo their system. So I don't.

So did you argue about it when they announced it? Link, please. Looks like no, you just came to troll in this topic.
And anyways, if you want to be consistent, you need to understand, that the precedent is created already. There are account-wide things that are included for convenience. No reason not to make another system more convenient for many players.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

And yet another personal attack. I shall take it as another sign that your argument is failing you...

No, I'm just showing you where your arguments fall apart. You're either trolling - then that's how it's uncovered, - or you truly think you are consistent. In this case might print this thread and highlight the moments when I called you a troll, so whenever you go to a specialist to check it, he will have easier time looking for examples and maybe identifying why you have this problem. Stay strong, it's not terminal.

I'm not trying to offend you, I'm just saying what I see. You are indeed inconsistent and can't get simple things in a couple of places in the comment. And it keeps happening, so I just assumed it's something that you might wanna check. Nothing personal here, anyone who would think like in those places would make me confused. So, no offence.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

So you really think if you complete a "any car" race with your ferrari, the "this car won that race" sticker on your WV beetle would not be a lie?
And you really think if there was such a "offical" sticker, the race officials should let you stick it to any other car but the one what won the race?
I am not going to post what I think about that...

If it's a "THIS CAR" sticker - then yes. If it's a "THIS RACE champion" sticker - then no. Don't you see that you're walking in circles? Is it really that hard to understand, that in some cases characters matter in others(all grindy achievements that don't require skill) - they don't?

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Ooo, that one is new, personal attack on my age.
I have you know I have been of age to play any kind of game for some time now...

Ahaha ok I see it now. You are a humanities major. Notice how you still didn't comment on the main part, but instead react to something unimportant. I'll repeat: NO stick gets the stamps as sticks are replaceable/interchangeable. More over, some will be thrown (a character deleted) away and some will be made way after the season where he won. But they still will be sticks of a champion. Titles should be shared absolutely. No question about this.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

As for sticks. You are saying, if they auction off "the stick that won the grand championship", they do not have to sell the real stick used in that particular grand championship match, but they can sell any stick that champion ever owned?

The law would call that "fraud"...

So much for your argument, criminal scum!

What? Sticks DO NOT WIN anything. There's no such thing as the stick that won the grand championship. If you let it participate if will just be lying where you left it. Also, players use more than 1 stick throughout the season.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Your opinion.
Mine differs.

And sometimes you do spend effort, but something gets messed up. The meal you have been cooking burns. The TV you have been saving for and bought gets knocked over by the cat. The dungeon you have been clearing doesn't count bedcause there is a power failure during the last bossfight.

C'est la vie.

You just deal with the frustration, and do it all over again.

That does not mean you should be able to get free meals for all days of the week because you spent the effort cooking one on monday. It does not mean you should get free TVs for every room because you bought one for your living room.

So why should it mean you should get to share titles again?

It's not an opinion. It's a fact. If I spent the effort - the effort was spent. If something got messed up but it's easily fixable - there's no reason not to fix it. In this case - there's no reason to force players to do stuff again if zos can just change the system to avoid it all together.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

You still want all the hod dogs you ate during your normal life be counted for the hot dog eating contest, dontcha?

Yes, it Will make it easier. Since right now, you have to do "extra effort" to reach many of the kill marks. Combining across multiple characters, you'd fill them during your normal playthrough, en passant.

Wut?(jackie chan.jpg). How is that related? Even when you play 1 toon you get credit for achievements if you happen to kill something during questing. No, it won't make anything easier. You still kill the same amount and walk the same distance. Moreover, in case achievements are account-wide I don't benefit from doing quests, I will be doing them for fun only if I want to.

Or are you saying that players should be forced to do something not fun when you can easily avoid that and do something that most people will enjoy more? With this approach, I'm wondering how soon would your game got free-to-play if you were to own one.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Saw the pic. Was not impressed. Definitely did not love it. Am still a player of sorts...

The looks can be different of course. No one said ALL players loved it (pls check that thing with logic). If players who don't love it don't lose anything and other players love it - then it should be implemented.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Equal rights for all achievements!
We will continue to disagree on this point. because I still think that even the "this character visited all those places and spent time not requiring skill doing something" achievements should stay character specific, just like a "this car visited every capital city" achievement should remain for the car that actually did it, or "this hockey stick won the championship" should remain for the stick that actually did it, and not for any of the other cars/sticks the "player" owns.

The character did NOT visit anything, did NOT spend any time. The car didn't visit anything and the stick didn't win anything. It was all the player. Characters DO NO DO anything whatsoever. They also don't pay sub and don't buy crowns. Players do all that and players spend effort.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Who is that "we" in your delusion? You and your other personality? Or have you started channeling royalty now?
Neither is considered a good sign in terms of pyschic health, you know...

I say again, IF you finally started trying to sell me a change to the system by trying to tell me nothing would change for me, and concentrated on something non-changy that would add the bits you would like to see to increase your enjoyment of the game, then we could stop arguing.

But "making achievements account shared" IS changing things. And not in a way I for one would enjoy.

The obvious solution is to leave the currnet system as it is, but add another, some account wide overwiew. It has been mentioned before in this thread. I would agree to that. Put the dyes into the accout wide, keep the titles individual. Things truly remain as they are for me, and you get an extra tab to check your "player progress".

"We" is all creatures capable of reading and logical/critical thinking.

I'll repeat again, I don't care about you. I care about what's better for the game. And things will remain the same for you . YOu won't be forced to use the titles you still didn't get (even if they are shared). Sharing achievements means adding the account-wide overview of a sort, not that you create an alt and he has all the achievements. Mentioned it multiple times already.

So no, nothing will change for you. You will still track progress with certain toons.

Also, another example of inconsistency. Why share dyes? There are, just like titles, rewards for the achievements. Why share some rewards, but not other?

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Why do you think your calling the current system names will convince ZOS?

I don't call system names. I'm just saying the facts. If zos are controlled by humanities majors who can't get logic and instead care about from over substance, then they will go bankrupt soon anyways. Probably would've gone by now. I'm hoping they will make the right choice, that's all. Blizzard did and players were happy. And not many (if any at all) left the game/stopped paying because of that.

Iluvrien wrote: »

Do feel free to highlight the section that makes you believe that I suggested that nobody agrees with you. Here's a hint, it isn't there. However, my post does suggest that your assertion that, and I quote, "There are no different breeds of players" might need reconsidering.

I do notice that you saved me further effort by not addressing the rest of my post. Considerate of you.

I am too lazy to go back and look for the quote, not you, but another dude was implying if not outright saying that. And yes, I only address parts worth addressing. The first one was some RP pasta, which I didn't get at all.

Iluvrien wrote: »

And my post was to add credence to the idea that more than one type of person plays this game, i.e. more than one breed. Hence my rebuttal of your quote.

So the rest of my post wasn't worth addressing? Interesting. Just because you didn't get it, doesn't mean it was worthless. Something to consider, perhaps.

Obviously more than one. At least two in any MMO. But they aren't that different apart from what content they enjoy playing.

Yup, pretty much. Didn't add anything new to the thread. If that was trying to show that one of the characters didn't even go fishing - well then if it all matters to you, do not use the title on him. Problem solved. No one is asking to remove individual progress. Every toon should have their own achi.... ugh just google wow's system or look at the pic I linked at least. That's why not worth addressing - it's just something that was stated many times. And yes, usually it's the speaker who has something to consider if his target audience doesn't get him. If the comment was addressed to me, it's up to you to make it readable, keeping in mind that not everyone here is an english-speaker.