TieFighter wrote: »

ah well let's put it this way, let's not put in bags and see the beginner players squirm instead of expecting everything to be given to them. if you need convenience then you are still learning the game which is cool. you either have the space for tradeskill items or you dont. at 150 bank spaces i can hold onto any tradeskill item including the guild i own which has 500 spaces. there is ways to achieve your goal without expecting eso to give it to you through the cash store.

dimensional wrote: »

TieFighter wrote: »

ah well let's put it this way, let's not put in bags and see the beginner players squirm instead of expecting everything to be given to them. if you need convenience then you are still learning the game which is cool. you either have the space for tradeskill items or you dont. at 150 bank spaces i can hold onto any tradeskill item including the guild i own which has 500 spaces. there is ways to achieve your goal without expecting eso to give it to you through the cash store.

The bags haven't been in the game since launch and they still aren't, yet where are these beginner players squirming about and expecting things to be given to them? There are none because it is a non-issue.

wayfarerx wrote: »

GaldorP wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

GaldorP wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

GaldorP wrote: »

Crafting bags would right now open up about 200 item slots in my bank. They're basically an additional bank for crafting mats that gets accessed automatically from any location on all characters without any limit to item slots you can realistically ever reach while the previous existing bank system is limited to 240 item slots and can only be accessed at banker NPCs. Crafting Bags are a feature that completely changes how inventory and bank item management works.

Limiting such an important feature to just subscribers does feel kinda wrong in a B2P game where you also have the option to permanently buy DLCs instead of subscribing. Sure, it's just convenience, you can play the game without Crafting Bags, but this time the convenience factor is so huge, it saves any active crafter/mat farmer a considerable amount of their play time and those who don't have access to it will waste hours on inventory and bank space management every week which they could have saved if they had access to Crafting Bags.

Give ESO+ subscribers better XP, inspiration, and research time bonuses, priority access to Cyrodiil campaigns at population cap, reduced fee when selling something in the guild store, and all this in addition to unlimited access to all DLCs and 1'500 crowns per month! But don't make a system like Crafting Bags which completely changes how inventory and bank space management works exclusive to subscribers.

First of all access to DLCs and 1500 crowns per month are not perks. Thats the base service you pay for when you sub. Remove either and noone subscribes. Even with those 2 things you get less bang for your buck with a sub than with purchasing content piece by piece. Even more so if you consider crown sales.

Better XP, inspiration, research time bonuses, etc. are all things that on one hand fall in the p2w category of perks (if theyre actually high enough to make a meaningful difference) and on the other become worthless over time. Priority access to Cyrodil is similar. For players who dont pvp it would be worthless (also for low pop campaigns) and people who do pvp but dont sub would feel like 2nd class customers.

As someone who's bought all 3 previous DLCs with crowns I feel cheated. There's a game-changing new inventory/bank/item management feature and I won't have access to it unless I subscribe which I'm certainly not going to do now having bought all previous DLCs for crowns. ZOS offered 2 different payment options for new content since the game went B2P: subscription or one-time purchase of DLCs. Now, one of them is clearly inferior and they're trying to force more people into subbing. I feel cheated having chosen the wrong payment option and now being forced into using the other if I want access to a game-changing new feature.

Here's what I don't get:

Yes, you bought the previous DLCs instead of subscribing, but did you take some kind of pledge that you'll never subscribe? You played the DLCs over the last year and paid for the privilege just like subs did, but you didn't buy every DLC that the future holds. If you subscribe now you'll get access to new DLCs as they come out without having to buy them as well as the other perks, and subscribing will not in any way deprive you of the ones you previously bought.

How does the fact that you've bought at least one DLC in the past make you married to the non-sub model forever?

If I subscribe now, I don't benefit from one of the main perks of a subscription: access to all DLCs 'cause I already have that. So I'd have to pay for the subscription just for 1500 crowns (which I don't really want) and Crafting Bags. The other perks have no meaning to me since I've researched everything, am at Champion Rank 501+. Sorry, but I'm not going to pay for a subscription just for Crafting Bags (which is such an important feature that it should be part of the base game/obtainable in the game).

Gotcha, sunk cost fallacy.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

GaldorP wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

GaldorP wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

GaldorP wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

GaldorP wrote: »

Crafting bags would right now open up about 200 item slots in my bank. They're basically an additional bank for crafting mats that gets accessed automatically from any location on all characters without any limit to item slots you can realistically ever reach while the previous existing bank system is limited to 240 item slots and can only be accessed at banker NPCs. Crafting Bags are a feature that completely changes how inventory and bank item management works.

Limiting such an important feature to just subscribers does feel kinda wrong in a B2P game where you also have the option to permanently buy DLCs instead of subscribing. Sure, it's just convenience, you can play the game without Crafting Bags, but this time the convenience factor is so huge, it saves any active crafter/mat farmer a considerable amount of their play time and those who don't have access to it will waste hours on inventory and bank space management every week which they could have saved if they had access to Crafting Bags.

Give ESO+ subscribers better XP, inspiration, and research time bonuses, priority access to Cyrodiil campaigns at population cap, reduced fee when selling something in the guild store, and all this in addition to unlimited access to all DLCs and 1'500 crowns per month! But don't make a system like Crafting Bags which completely changes how inventory and bank space management works exclusive to subscribers.

First of all access to DLCs and 1500 crowns per month are not perks. Thats the base service you pay for when you sub. Remove either and noone subscribes. Even with those 2 things you get less bang for your buck with a sub than with purchasing content piece by piece. Even more so if you consider crown sales.

Better XP, inspiration, research time bonuses, etc. are all things that on one hand fall in the p2w category of perks (if theyre actually high enough to make a meaningful difference) and on the other become worthless over time. Priority access to Cyrodil is similar. For players who dont pvp it would be worthless (also for low pop campaigns) and people who do pvp but dont sub would feel like 2nd class customers.

As someone who's bought all 3 previous DLCs with crowns I feel cheated. There's a game-changing new inventory/bank/item management feature and I won't have access to it unless I subscribe which I'm certainly not going to do now having bought all previous DLCs for crowns. ZOS offered 2 different payment options for new content since the game went B2P: subscription or one-time purchase of DLCs. Now, one of them is clearly inferior and they're trying to force more people into subbing. I feel cheated having chosen the wrong payment option and now being forced into using the other if I want access to a game-changing new feature.

Here's what I don't get:

Yes, you bought the previous DLCs instead of subscribing, but did you take some kind of pledge that you'll never subscribe? You played the DLCs over the last year and paid for the privilege just like subs did, but you didn't buy every DLC that the future holds. If you subscribe now you'll get access to new DLCs as they come out without having to buy them as well as the other perks, and subscribing will not in any way deprive you of the ones you previously bought.

How does the fact that you've bought at least one DLC in the past make you married to the non-sub model forever?

If I subscribe now, I don't benefit from one of the main perks of a subscription: access to all DLCs 'cause I already have that. So I'd have to pay for the subscription just for 1500 crowns (which I don't really want) and Crafting Bags. The other perks have no meaning to me since I've researched everything, am at Champion Rank 501+. Sorry, but I'm not going to pay for a subscription just for Crafting Bags (which is such an important feature that it should be part of the base game/obtainable in the game).

Gotcha, sunk cost fallacy.

If I'd subscribed instead of buying the DLCs I could have lots of pets, mounts, and costumes or just crowns now to spend on anything I want and I would have had access to the DLCs at the same time (and an XP bonus of 10%). I might have ended up paying a bit more in total than I spent on crowns to buy the 3 DLCs, but I would be in a much better position now as someone who wants access to Crafting Bags.
I probably would have chosen the subscription option had I known from the beginning that Crafting Bags would be what they are now.

You know starting a subscription now will give you access to -future- DLCs and ESO+ perks.
Now that crafting bags are a thing, you can feel pretty confident there will be other perks, which (by your logic) would seem to justify starting a subscription now.

TieFighter wrote: »

just dont get too crazy about what is offered in the cash store regarding perks. in all actuality i may be biased and hold resentments about how it ruined past games- cash stores and what they ended up offering over a period of time. i guess i may be paranoid and see this as a beginning to that process.

Bluepitbull13 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

How about...

• 10% Public Crown Store discount: This would entice players to buy more as subscribers!
• Ownership of DLC as Loyalty Bonuses over time For every 3 consecutive months players are subscribed they get a "DLC Token" That token can be spent on the DLC or the Token + 2000 Crowns can be spent on the collectors edition.
• Able to join up to 10 Guilds Players who subscribe should be able to join more guilds than those who do not. The additional guilds should be under the "subscriber guilds" and should be clear as to which the player will loose access to if they unsubscribe.
• Additional Character slots Players should have access to additional character slots, which they loose access to if they unsubscribe. I think 2-4 additional slots would be cool.
• Priority queuing when entering game and zoning: Subscribers should be at the front of the line to get into the game and to move from one area to another.
• Access to a subscriber-exclusive area of the Crown Store. In a special subscriber-only area of the crown store players will still have to buy items with Crowns but the 10% Subscriber discount should NOT apply to these items. ALL players should be able to view the Subscriber Crown Store, but only Subscribers should be able to buy from it. Additionally, this could include the following 3 features.
  • 1 month early access to all Costumes and Mounts: Giving a month's early access to Costumes and Mounts will do a lot to make subscriptions desirable. Subscribers who buy these items early will not get the 10% crown store discount.
  • 5 day early access to all DLC expansions: Giving 5 days early access will entice players who feel like they must play the newest content right away won't be able to resist subscribing!
  • Longer access to limited time items: ZOS could add limited sale items to the ESO+ section of the crown store one week early... and take them out one week later.
  • More frequent Limited Item Rotation: If ZOS is planning to have a specific item only available one time a year in the Crown Store, it could be available one additional time per year in the ESO+ section of the crown store.
• Monthly Subscriber Treasure Maps: Each month, Subscribers should get at least 1 map (1 in each faction would be nice) that leads players to treasures. These treasures could include things like special subscriber hats and subscriber exclusive clothing that don't have any stats.
• Assistant Summons: Subscribers should get the ability to summon both the Merchant and the Banker. This ability would come with a cooldown. Maybe it's 24 hours... maybe it's longer.

lol all these suggestions but crafting bags is where you draw the line? crafting bags is the one thing that shouldn't be a perk? but non- subscribers should "deal with it" in any of your suggestions? lol

• Console text chat... but only for subscribers.
• A lag-free version of Cyrodiil that's accessible only to subscribers.
• The upcoming grouping tools... exclusively to subscribers.
• A Subscriber-Only Auction House.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Cherryblossom wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I agree that this isn't something that should be exclusive to ESO+, these Crafting Bags will fundamentally alter the way people who use them play the game significantly for the better, and to say that all the players who pay money directly for DLC's shouldn't have the option to buy this also is a slap in the face to all of us.

I understand and agree that there isn't nearly enough of an incentive to buy ESO+ currently but that doesn't justify adding something this important and giving it only to Subscribers, two wrongs do not make a right and while it's wrong to have ESO+ not be more rewarding it's also wrong to give them something that should be available to everyone just to appease Subscribers and incentivize more people to Subscribe.

This incident really makes me question the validity and practicality of offering two different payment methods for DLC's in the first place, and if this is how hard ZOS is going to push to emphasize Subscribing as the superior option then I think it was a mistake to ever drop the Subscription model. If they are going to continue to have these two alternatives coexist, then they need to be equitably implemented, and while it was unfairly balanced before against Subscribing, now it's going to be unfairly balanced in favor of Subscribing, and while I fully understand all the Subscribers who selfishly want this to stay for them alone, that isn't remotely fair or reasonable for the rest of us.

Just because ESO+ people were getting the shaft before doesn't mean everyone else should be getting the shaft now just to compensate, and that seems to be the rationale behind a lot of people's arguments, that ESO+ is and should be the better option and anyone too cheap to use it can suck it, and that you deserve anything you can get just to make ESO+ actually be worth your money. Newsflash, you don't, we all deserve access to such fundamentally important and game-changing additions, including people who have no interest in Subscribing but who have and will continue to buy DLC content outright.

If they want ESO+ to be more worthwhile then there are lots of other ways they could improve it that won't deprive everyone else of such important content, and anyone saying that the crafting bags finally justify their Subscription and should stay exclusive should be spending their time doing something more useful and coming up with other ways they can get their money's worth that doesn't screw over the rest of us. Seriously that isn't even a valid argument in the least, that's like saying it's not fair that Women don't get equal pay and suggesting that the solution is to give them even more than Men, which is patently ridiculous. You can't fix something that's broken by going overboard in the other direction, it fixes nothing and just stirs up trouble.

You say there are better ways to make ESO+ worthwhile, can you give some? Really give some, where someone else like yourself, doesn't say's its unfair I want that too, but I don't want to support the game to get it.

This is not fundamental to the game, its convenient, everyone who's played from launch has done so without the crafting bag, so it being fundamental to the game, is fundamentally wrong based on the evidence of the last two years without this convenience.

If this convenience is wanted so badly by many players, may be they will see the benefits of subscribing, which will be a win for the game.

Its nice though that you think people who are supporting the game are screwing you over though.

You want other ways to make ESO+ worthwhile @Cherryblossom ?

How about...

• 10% Public Crown Store discount: This would entice players to buy more as subscribers!
• Ownership of DLC as Loyalty Bonuses over time For every 3 consecutive months players are subscribed they get a "DLC Token" That token can be spent on the DLC or the Token + 2000 Crowns can be spent on the collectors edition.
• Able to join up to 10 Guilds Players who subscribe should be able to join more guilds than those who do not. The additional guilds should be under the "subscriber guilds" and should be clear as to which the player will loose access to if they unsubscribe.
• Additional Character slots Players should have access to additional character slots, which they loose access to if they unsubscribe. I think 2-4 additional slots would be cool.
• Priority queuing when entering game and zoning: Subscribers should be at the front of the line to get into the game and to move from one area to another.
• Access to a subscriber-exclusive area of the Crown Store. In a special subscriber-only area of the crown store players will still have to buy items with Crowns but the 10% Subscriber discount should NOT apply to these items. ALL players should be able to view the Subscriber Crown Store, but only Subscribers should be able to buy from it. Additionally, this could include the following 3 features.
  • 1 month early access to all Costumes and Mounts: Giving a month's early access to Costumes and Mounts will do a lot to make subscriptions desirable. Subscribers who buy these items early will not get the 10% crown store discount.
  • 5 day early access to all DLC expansions: Giving 5 days early access will entice players who feel like they must play the newest content right away won't be able to resist subscribing!
  • Longer access to limited time items: ZOS could add limited sale items to the ESO+ section of the crown store one week early... and take them out one week later.
  • More frequent Limited Item Rotation: If ZOS is planning to have a specific item only available one time a year in the Crown Store, it could be available one additional time per year in the ESO+ section of the crown store.
• Monthly Subscriber Treasure Maps: Each month, Subscribers should get at least 1 map (1 in each faction would be nice) that leads players to treasures. These treasures could include things like special subscriber hats and subscriber exclusive clothing that don't have any stats.
• Assistant Summons: Subscribers should get the ability to summon both the Merchant and the Banker. This ability would come with a cooldown. Maybe it's 24 hours... maybe it's longer.

Not to poop on your suggestions but, none of those are especially appealing to me.
I subscribe because I'm not super excited about the Crown Store or having to make purchases. Giving me discounts and larger windows to make purchases doesn't incentivize me at all since a significant reason I subscribe is to avoid the Crown store.

Gidorick wrote: »

And that's fine @ShedsHisTail ... not every perk is going to incentivize every player. The point is, ZOS could have added other options to the subscription that weren't "fixes for a broken system".... I have given some examples. Want more? I can give more.

Gidorick wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

And that's fine @ShedsHisTail ... not every perk is going to incentivize every player. The point is, ZOS could have added other options to the subscription that weren't "fixes for a broken system".... I have given some examples. Want more? I can give more.

No, @Gidorick I don't need more.
However, I think it's worth noting that just as not every option will incentivize every player, neither will every system fit every play-style. Just because the current system isn't working for you doesn't make it broken.

I don't have any issues with the system as is. Having to manage my bank/inventory space is something I'm capable of doing and it doesn't interfere with how I want to play the game. Your "broken system" works just fine for me and, I imagine, a healthy chunk of the population.

I welcome the crafting bag, it'll be handy. But it's something I, and many others, have been living without just fine for a very long time.

"Works fine" is much different than "works efficiently" @ShedsHisTail . We have dealt with and learned to accept the inventory as it is because that is what we had to do. We had no choice in the matter. Now we have a choice... subscribe and get the new-improved inventory... or don't subscribe and continue with the system that "works fine".