Does nobody else see how wrong this is? (craft bags)

FLuFFyxMuFFiN · May 2016

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

nope nothing wrong with it, sub for the bag.

A lot people aren't smart enough to comprehend this @Mojmir

The bags were always intended to be a sub benefit but people still complain. The only thing I have to say to the people who refuse to sub for the bag and complain about not having one is to either shut up and be happy with what you have or leave and don't come back. It is their own fault for not subbing that they don't have the bag.

The crazy thing is, they claim to buy Crowns all the time. If they purchase anything more than 1500 Crowns they have no reason NOT to sub. They get the 15 dollars worth in crowns, all the benefits and can still purchase whatever it is they set out to purchase.

If youre buying up the LTO mounts or costumes every month. Youre definitely buying more Crowns then youd need for the Sub. At that point why not invest in the sub and still get what youre after?

Exactly. I don't understand why people can get that through their heads.

WhoThenNow7 · May 2016

I wish they would just make the game pay to play so everyone gets the same benefits, or get rid of eso+ all together. Lets face it, 10% extra experience is an absolute joke. As soon as crafting bags hit the crown store, I'm cancelling my sub.

ManwithBeard9 · May 2016

WhoThenNow7 wrote: »

I wish they would just make the game pay to play so everyone gets the same benefits, or get rid of eso+ all together. Lets face it, 10% extra experience is an absolute joke. As soon as crafting bags hit the crown store, I'm cancelling my sub.

The "infinite" crafting bag will never hit the crown store. They should offer a limited size version or at least start increasing bank/carry space.

Xylphan · May 2016

wayfarerx wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

The idea behind subbing for many people has always been that people sub so that they can support the game, support developers making choices that they like, and help move the game to newer and cooler places.

Due to the XP bonus, but even more so now due to the extra inventory space, the subscription model is turning into one in which people feel the urge to sub for bonuses rather than the urge to sub to help others help the game.

That is where the issue lies. Any bonus tied to giving the game money is not only pay to win, but it is also a perversion of our societal values or morals because the bonuses, yes cause disparity between subs and non-subs, but also undermine the notions that build a donation base; being generous, supporting others, and guiding the development of the game via a subscription are those undermined notions.

What? This is a business, and people pay for a product. What they choose to sell and what we choose to buy don't have anything to do with societal values or morals. I hope you are being sarcastic and that my sarcasm meter needs batteries.

Capitalism without values guiding that aspect of life results in a perverse monster.

Forgive me, I might have nodded off a bit in the depths of this thread, but we're still talking about video games here, right?

No, this thread is now about twinkies. Or kittens. Or twinkies stuffed with kittens.

I'm not a sub, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with subs getting a crafting bag perk. They're willing to fork over cash every month so my cheap butt can keep playing. I don't see crafting bags anything remotely P2W. As long as ZOS doesn't start adding P2W crap, anything they can do to increase sub rates so I can keep playing without forking over cash every month is fine by me.

I thank the subs for subsidizing my entertainment. May RNGesus bless you all.

alexkdd99 · May 2016

I have a great idea for all you people not wanting to buy eso+. They can offer the craft bags by themselves for 15$ a month. I mean after all you just want to get them without purchasing eso+. If it is so important to you then you would pay the money every month and most certainly would not stop playing because you don't have an item that you have always played without.

WhoThenNow7 · May 2016

I didn't mean to sound harsh in my last post.. But I just realized something. If subscribers thought they were getting their money's worth, then they wouldn't be arguing the way they are about keeping this bag exclusive to us. But, as long as ZOS doesn't add anything that makes it an actual advantage, then I will continue to be a subscriber and be content with the system they have now. Little perks like the bag will be good for subscribers, and it is not game breaking. I do feel for the people who bought all the DLC's already; but to be honest, if you love the game and want the bag, then subscribe anyway and don't buy extra crowns. I am actually planning on saving the crowns I get each month just to buy the DLC's, that way i know I'll always have them.

OK, this post was way longer than I expected. Mixed emotions about this whole thing, I guess.

jircris11 · May 2016

Honestly i have been a ESO+ member since the launch of the game. (paid from beta to B2P then continued to sub) and to be honest, the EXP boost is laughable, the DLC rental is nice BUT if i do not pay my sub it goes bye bye. And the crowns they grant go quick. The crafting bag is a perk that will actually entice people to sub and it is nice.

Personofsecrets · May 2016

Honestly, buying BIS items would be much more satisfying and productive than grinding for them anyhow. I guess that I should just enjoy the decline.

wayfarerx · May 2016

Xylphan wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

The idea behind subbing for many people has always been that people sub so that they can support the game, support developers making choices that they like, and help move the game to newer and cooler places.

Due to the XP bonus, but even more so now due to the extra inventory space, the subscription model is turning into one in which people feel the urge to sub for bonuses rather than the urge to sub to help others help the game.

That is where the issue lies. Any bonus tied to giving the game money is not only pay to win, but it is also a perversion of our societal values or morals because the bonuses, yes cause disparity between subs and non-subs, but also undermine the notions that build a donation base; being generous, supporting others, and guiding the development of the game via a subscription are those undermined notions.

What? This is a business, and people pay for a product. What they choose to sell and what we choose to buy don't have anything to do with societal values or morals. I hope you are being sarcastic and that my sarcasm meter needs batteries.

Capitalism without values guiding that aspect of life results in a perverse monster.

Forgive me, I might have nodded off a bit in the depths of this thread, but we're still talking about video games here, right?

No, this thread is now about twinkies. Or kittens. Or twinkies stuffed with kittens.

Honestly, that sounds like more fun. I'm in.

DaveMoeDee · May 2016

FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

nope nothing wrong with it, sub for the bag.

A lot people aren't smart enough to comprehend this @Mojmir

The bags were always intended to be a sub benefit but people still complain. The only thing I have to say to the people who refuse to sub for the bag and complain about not having one is to either shut up and be happy with what you have or leave and don't come back. It is their own fault for not subbing that they don't have the bag.

The crazy thing is, they claim to buy Crowns all the time. If they purchase anything more than 1500 Crowns they have no reason NOT to sub. They get the 15 dollars worth in crowns, all the benefits and can still purchase whatever it is they set out to purchase.

If youre buying up the LTO mounts or costumes every month. Youre definitely buying more Crowns then youd need for the Sub. At that point why not invest in the sub and still get what youre after?

Exactly. I don't understand why people can get that through their heads.

The problem with starting the sub is that when you stop the sub, you walk away missing a bunch of DLC. Sure, I can save up a lot of 1500 crown gifts, but $1 per 100 crowns is a horrible rate compared to 5500 for $24, which is what I have been buying them for. It feels like a fair deal if the crafting bags are worth $8 or a month since 1500 crowns is $7 worth based on what I've been paying. With a sub, I get Wrothgar for a single month, half the crowns needed to buy Wrothgar, and then no Wrothgar when the sub lapses for $15. Buying crowns, I got Wrothgar forever for under $15.

Plus, if I sub, the crowns feel pretty useless apart from the bank assistant -- which isn't near as useful with crafting bags.

DaveMoeDee · May 2016

jircris11 wrote: »

Honestly i have been a ESO+ member since the launch of the game. (paid from beta to B2P then continued to sub) and to be honest, the EXP boost is laughable, the DLC rental is nice BUT if i do not pay my sub it goes bye bye. And the crowns they grant go quick. The crafting bag is a perk that will actually entice people to sub and it is nice.

All of these points are good except the once about the crowns going quick. If you like buying crown store stuff, they would still go quick if you bought crowns outright.

A more reasonable argument is that $15 for 1500 crowns is overpriced compared to the 5500 packs so many players bought for $24.

clayandaudrey_ESO · May 2016

Does nobody else see how wrong this is? (That this thread is still going)

Mojmir · May 2016

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

Does nobody else see how wrong this is? (That this thread is still going)

yep, that i do

Necrelios · May 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Necrelios wrote: »

A lot of people seem to be missing the OP's point. That point being, ZoS should make craft bags available for purchase, in addition to being made available to ESO+ members. ZoS get's paid, customer gets crafting bag, and ESO+ members still get there perks in a way that doesn't slap other loyal customers in the face. It's a win+win situation, and everyone is happy. It is the only reasonable way crafting bags should be implemented.

But that's not true.
As outlined in my math above, subscribers run in a state of perpetual deficit in comparison with non subscribers. The ammount of deficit changes depending on how much time has passed between DLCS, but the fact remains.

Crafting bags are an incentive to those willing to accept and commit to that deficit.

In raw Quantity per Crown,non subs always run cheaper than subs. And a one-time purchase won't change that.

I agree there is a deficit, and ESO+ members should get more benefits. That is another dead horse we have been kicking for a long time. By all means, give ESO+ members a crafting bag, but also make it available for purchase just like DLC. However, it should really be included with the base game like item locking since it is such a basic feature. To make up for the deficit, give ESO+ members more crowns with each subscription or give them any of the options discussed on these forums.

The crafting bag need not be exclusive, however. Most games these days have separate inventories for crafting mats, provided with the base game. This is a feature that should have been included with ESO at launch, for everybody, and it is sickening they are trying offer it as an exclusive "benefit" when it is something so basic that should have been in the game in the first place like every other game.

TL;DR
ESO+ Does need more benefits, but the crafting bag should not be considered a benefit since it is a feature that should have been in place since the game launched like any other recent MMO. Take a look around, and you will see that it is just a trick to rip players off. That is not a sustainable business practice by any means.

khele23eb17_ESO · May 2016

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

WhoThenNow7 wrote: »

I wish they would just make the game pay to play so everyone gets the same benefits, or get rid of eso+ all together. Lets face it, 10% extra experience is an absolute joke. As soon as crafting bags hit the crown store, I'm cancelling my sub.

The "infinite" crafting bag will never hit the crown store. They should offer a limited size version or at least start increasing bank/carry space.

Im curious, what 'limited size' would you be satisfied with? (I realize this is a perfect setup for a dirty joke, but lets not

)

Necrelios wrote: »

TL;DR
ESO+ Does need more benefits, but the crafting bag should not be considered a benefit since it is a feature that should have been in place since the game launched like any other recent MMO. Take a look around, and you will see that it is just a trick to rip players off. That is not a sustainable business practice by any means.

Im curious about this too. What benefits would you give ESO+ that would be desirable and meaningful but couldnt be given a 'this should be in base game' or 'this is p2w' spin?

Hallothiel · May 2016

@Necrelios - agree.

Zos need to decide whether this game is sub or not. It sold itself after the revamp as not requiring a sub so maybe that is why some are annoyed. And if you have tried the game & now like crafting, feels a bit like they are pulling a fast one.

And those saying that it helps the business etc - relying on subbing didn't work before so why would it now?

Also subbing is not that usual on consoles - yes I know there are some - but mostly you just buy the game & dlcs etc and that's it. It might not be much but have to pay for PSN & then to sub on top? All adds up when £ can be tight. And there are apparently issues with subbing on consoles.

That's all.

Ep1kMalware · May 2016

a single month of eso+ is nearly enough to buy the dlc, so think of the money you save when they let you buy it that way. Im not an eso+ member, anrI'm glad they did this. I think the subscribers should get a few extra perks. eso+ is expensive. good on zos for giving them a plus.

Kendaric · May 2016

Hallothiel wrote: »

@Necrelios - agree.

Zos need to decide whether this game is sub or not. It sold itself after the revamp as not requiring a sub so maybe that is why some are annoyed. And if you have tried the game & now like crafting, feels a bit like they are pulling a fast one.

I have 8 characters, each of them crafting their own equipment for the most part and I can asure you, it works just fine without the craft bag. It's purely a convenience item, nice to have but not needed. Especially with the conversion of vet ranks to CP.
If I could trade my crafting bag for 2 character slots, I'd do so immediately.

Aisle9 · May 2016

Wow, 14 pages ?

Come on, still arguing about it ?

It's not going to happen.

GaldorP · May 2016

Crafting bags would right now open up about 200 item slots in my bank. They're basically an additional bank for crafting mats that gets accessed automatically from any location on all characters without any limit to item slots you can realistically ever reach while the previous existing bank system is limited to 240 item slots and can only be accessed at banker NPCs. Crafting Bags are a feature that completely changes how inventory and bank item management works.

Limiting such an important feature to just subscribers does feel kinda wrong in a B2P game where you also have the option to permanently buy DLCs instead of subscribing. Sure, it's just convenience, you can play the game without Crafting Bags, but this time the convenience factor is so huge, it saves any active crafter/mat farmer a considerable amount of their play time and those who don't have access to it will waste hours on inventory and bank space management every week which they could have saved if they had access to Crafting Bags.

Give ESO+ subscribers better XP, inspiration, and research time bonuses, priority access to Cyrodiil campaigns at population cap, reduced fee when selling something in the guild store, and all this in addition to unlimited access to all DLCs and 1'500 crowns per month! But don't make a system like Crafting Bags which completely changes how inventory and bank space management works exclusive to subscribers.

ChildOfLight · May 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

In short.....
-The bag should be a base game feature and the ability to obtain the bag should be in-line with:
-crowns
-in-game gold
-ESO Plus

There are a lot of arguments or opinions but bottom line is this. ZOS has moved away from their initial confirmation of what would be linked to a subscription and what would be in the crown store.

Also, the fact that ESO Plus doesn't work as it should on Xbox One, the bag or any other features should be exclusive to a sub.

How have they gone away with what they said as far as subscription and crown store? the BAG is convenience like literally if I could describe the bag I would say: a bag to conveniently store crafting items instead of having to visit the bank or mule alts.

The first and most obvious is what I mention as respects to Xbox One...this has been the case since day 1 and it still occurs as recent as April 28th 2016

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2015/03/17/crown-store-showcase
" Don't forget that members of ESO Plus receive a monthly allotment of crowns in addition to other in-game bonuses! "

The other concern is items that are locked behind a sub or crowns
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2015/02/12/the-road-ahead---february
"he most important thing to remember about Tamriel Unlimited's virtual currency system is that we're not adjusting the base game—it will be exactly the same game, with the same leveling pace, experience point gain, user interface, etc.
We're adding customization and convenience items in the Crown Store, but those will be added to the game as it is now; we're not going to make it harder for you to enjoy the game you already play to encourage you to use the Crown Store."

"Game Director Matt Firor explained that the base game will maintain "the same levelling pace, experience point gain, [and] user interface" it always has, and promised that it won't be made more difficult to play for those who don't spring for real-money items."

"An item in the Crown Store serves one of two purposes: It either provides a visual upgrade or distinction for your character, or it provides a way to save time at the expense of spending Crowns," he wrote. "When it comes to this second category of items, we will generally make in-game variants of similar items available either as drops or as player-craftable items as well."

Not sure if you're on PTS but ther

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Thank you for your oppinion. However I disagree. ESO has every right to provide these bags exclusively to subscribers and no need to bow threads like this one.

Anyone with basic economic and marketing knowledge would understand that subscriptions are the prefered source of income for a great many reasons. At that this carrot added to the ESO+ benefits is a big plus for marketing subscriptions.

In the end, crafting bag exclusive to ESO + is a win win for Zos. You can sub if you want to.

@Giles.floydub17_ESO just read right above....its not a matter of opinion according to my comments above. While others have input their opinions and such, when the director of any company goes public with statements, that company should always make decisions around those statements.

This literally makes the game more difficult in respects to inventory management without a sub so a few things.
1. This is in conflict of earlier promises that were made on ESO Live about the words in the article linked above.
2. The company hasn't resolved outstanding issues specific to xbox one and the crowns or DLC access under ESP Plus
3. Making any feature exclusive to a subscription with no other options partial or incomplete of the subscription feature is not a win nor is it an intelligent business practice specifically due to earlier statement made by the companies director
4. Anyone with basic economic and marketing knowledge would understand that subscriptions ARE NOT a preferred source of income. Actual cash is a preferred source. All a subscription does is create another study pattern to monitor a customer base. Once you factor in charge-backs, canceled CC, failed charges, customer service costs, etc. its nothing more than another form of payment. thats all it is
5. The real issue if that ZOS refuses to offer meaningful ESO Plus benefits so they've came up with this idea which is going to back-fire around June 20th 2016

This.

MattT1988 · May 2016

OP said that all characters NEED these bags. No they don't. Yes crafting bags are very convient, but they're not essential, not even for the jack of all trades crafters. Good personal bank management goes a long way. Especially for someone who crafts everything like I do, but I easily manage. I'm not a sub and I won't be subbing for these bags. Couldn't care either way if ZOS backflips and makes it available to everyone.

khele23eb17_ESO · May 2016

GaldorP wrote: »

Crafting bags would right now open up about 200 item slots in my bank. They're basically an additional bank for crafting mats that gets accessed automatically from any location on all characters without any limit to item slots you can realistically ever reach while the previous existing bank system is limited to 240 item slots and can only be accessed at banker NPCs. Crafting Bags are a feature that completely changes how inventory and bank item management works.

Limiting such an important feature to just subscribers does feel kinda wrong in a B2P game where you also have the option to permanently buy DLCs instead of subscribing. Sure, it's just convenience, you can play the game without Crafting Bags, but this time the convenience factor is so huge, it saves any active crafter/mat farmer a considerable amount of their play time and those who don't have access to it will waste hours on inventory and bank space management every week which they could have saved if they had access to Crafting Bags.

Give ESO+ subscribers better XP, inspiration, and research time bonuses, priority access to Cyrodiil campaigns at population cap, reduced fee when selling something in the guild store, and all this in addition to unlimited access to all DLCs and 1'500 crowns per month! But don't make a system like Crafting Bags which completely changes how inventory and bank space management works exclusive to subscribers.

First of all access to DLCs and 1500 crowns per month are not perks. Thats the base service you pay for when you sub. Remove either and noone subscribes. Even with those 2 things you get less bang for your buck with a sub than with purchasing content piece by piece. Even more so if you consider crown sales.

Better XP, inspiration, research time bonuses, etc. are all things that on one hand fall in the p2w category of perks (if theyre actually high enough to make a meaningful difference) and on the other become worthless over time. Priority access to Cyrodil is similar. For players who dont pvp it would be worthless (also for low pop campaigns) and people who do pvp but dont sub would feel like 2nd class customers.

Valrien · May 2016

Hallothiel wrote: »

@Necrelios - agree.

Zos need to decide whether this game is sub or not. It sold itself after the revamp as not requiring a sub so maybe that is why some are annoyed. And if you have tried the game & now like crafting, feels a bit like they are pulling a fast one.

And those saying that it helps the business etc - relying on subbing didn't work before so why would it now?

Also subbing is not that usual on consoles - yes I know there are some - but mostly you just buy the game & dlcs etc and that's it. It might not be much but have to pay for PSN & then to sub on top? All adds up when £ can be tight. And there are apparently issues with subbing on consoles.

That's all.

Actually a subscription did work before. They had to drop it because I believe one of the console companies didn't want to negotiate working with Zenimax on the subs.

Besides, it doesn't require a sub. You'll still be able to log on and play. You'll still be able to craft and store mats. Just because a game "doesn't require a sub", doesn't mean subscribing shouldn't have incentives.

NeillMcAttack · May 2016

Just gonna copy paste my thought from a previous thread;

First off,
I have subbed pretty much constant since the game released on console. Crafting bags are going to guarantee that I remain subbed, probably until I no longer enjoy the game so much. Saying that, I would not be against some sort of option for players that craft and support the game through DLC purchases etc. Perhaps a 'loyalty system' that gives (let's call them casuals for now, and for a laugh) casual players that keep up to date with DLC purchases access to something similar to the craft bag without de-valuing the craft bag.

Let's face it, the craft bag is supposed to give a keen incentive for players to sub, and it will, so making it available to all with once off purchases or gold would be completely counter productive to what is the intended design.

Besides, if it is a once off payment to greatly increase inventory size that people want then, and I honestly can't understand why people won't agree that it is a completely valid option, just sub for a month and load all your mats into the bag. You will still be able to remove anything you want, you just won't be able to continue storing stuff into it. You're not even going to use the majority of the mats people are hoarding for a loooong time.

And to add to that;

The argument in the OP, to me, would be the very same as me coming on here and making a thread complaining that subs should have access to a personal banker. But you don't see them, as they are widely accepted to be a different product, totally separate purchases or commitments.

Nermy · May 2016

jircris11 wrote: »

Honestly i have been a ESO+ member since the launch of the game. (paid from beta to B2P then continued to sub) and to be honest, the EXP boost is laughable, the DLC rental is nice BUT if i do not pay my sub it goes bye bye. And the crowns they grant go quick. The crafting bag is a perk that will actually entice people to sub and it is nice.

I'm the same, I have subbed since beta and the crafting bags are a nice addition for subbers.

The sense of entitlement from players of this game bowls me over, you ruined IC with this pathetic argument, I damn well hope you don't ruin a perk that is meant purely for people who sub.

If you're that worried about it, start bloody subbing, otherwise please be quiet... (i.e. STFU)

KICHZY · May 2016

Crafts bags should stay eso plus only, People are just being salty because they feel entitled. They don't effect overall gameplay nor give advantages over others...it's simply a convenience perk for people who subscribe. Get over yourselves!

idk · May 2016

Mojmir wrote: »

nope nothing wrong with it, sub for the bag.

Want the crafting bag then follow this guys advice.

The only reason non-subs are upset about this is because this bag is such s perfect subscription perk. Non subs save $$$ by just buying DLCs and would have to pay more on average to get this perk.

I think it's fabulous.

Uriel_Nocturne · May 2016

Oh, Gods...

This argument is still going!?

How much more circular can it get!?!? I thought it would induce narcolepsy yesterday, but today... O.o

idk · May 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

This whole issue is so devisive it does neither 'side' any favours and frankly some of the attitudes shown leave a bad taste in the mouth. The whole debacle has left me less than enamoured with this game & its players, even more than all the PVE /PVP nerf rubbish that is one of the main whinges.

Same here @Hallothiel ... ZOS' actions (not just this, but others) have made me question the integrity of the future of ESO and the attitudes presented on this thread really makes me question if I want to be participate with this community much longer.

Hmm... ZOS better be thanking the Divines this is a TES game...

Are you serious? Entitlement runs strong with this one. Lol

if you understood basic economic principles and marketing then it would be obvious that Zos is better off with higher sub numbers. This perk is a fabulous enticement to obtain and retain subscribers.

Value of the business increases more per subscriber vs players that buy DLC.
Revenue flow is greater via subscribers vs DLC for just playing the game.

Thx Zos for this subscriber exclusive perk. Fabulous idea which is evident by the passion some non-subs have had.