Give me a reason to run vICP and vWGT

idk · May 2016

When I returned to ESO a few months ago I thought it was a great design to have a normal version of the new dungeons coupled with a more challenging version of the same dungeons. When TG dropped I felt Zos had finally started designing the trials as they should have been from the beginning with a normal version and a more challenging version and no longer shutting a group down once they had X number of deaths.

This design catered to players who challenge themselves to get the most out of their characters and have a lot of time to spend in game and provide enjoyment to those who spend less time in game, the player who we generally call a casual or moderate player.

The game must cater to both sides of the spectrum to have good long term success.

However, we are facing a nerf to the only 4 man dungeons that provide the slightest challenge to those that have worked hard at it and their characters over the months. These dungeons also drop what is considered the BiS gear for some build that require huge RNG to get the gear and the gear in the desired traits.

Today on the PTS more traits were added to the drops for those gear sets in at lest the vaults for the respective dungeons decreasing the challenge of obtaining the desired trait by almost half.

I ask the devs what reason we have to continue running these dungeons if they are boring due to lack of challenge and the gear is almost double the already long grind to obtain? No challenge and no gear is a waste of time.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_TristanK @ZOS_GaryA @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Finn @zos_seiffer

Ep1kMalware · May 2016

This is veru true. As far as already being a challenge, thats not even the case. I ran 2 new people through prison last night. first run was a practice run, with hardmode achievement. The second run one guy left so we pulled in a guildmate and we got a nodeath speedrun with no healer.

I've pulled alot of folks throught vwgt tanking on my dps character. More like taunting with some extra dodgerolls. All fast, smooth runs. We dont need a nerf, half these people just want spellpower cure. This nerf harms everybody.

I dont mind the health nerf, it helps us farmers farm, but the damage nerfs are uncalled for. I nodeath tank with 15k health in medium armour not blocking already.

Khaos_Bane · May 2016

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

This is veru true. As far as already being a challenge, thats not even the case. I ran 2 new people through prison last night. first run was a practice run, with hardmode achievement. The second run one guy left so we pulled in a guildmate and we got a nodeath speedrun with no healer.

I've pulled alot of folks throught vwgt tanking on my dps character. More like taunting with some extra dodgerolls. All fast, smooth runs. We dont need a nerf, half these people just want spellpower cure. This nerf harms everybody.

I dont mind the health nerf, it helps us farmers farm, but the damage nerfs are uncalled for. I nodeath tank with 15k health in medium armour not blocking already.

Sounds like medium armor needs a nerf !

RoyJade · May 2016

Well, about the new traits added to the table loot, there is also one good point they forgot to mention : the increased drop rate. See Jessica's post :

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We've seen the requests for adding the Impenetrable Trait to the Imperial City dungeon loot tables. It's something we're discussing.

Regarding the change from yesterday's patch, we missed a few key patch notes from the initial Dark Brotherhood patch that go hand-in-hand with the addition of the Traits that were missing from item set drops in White-Gold Tower and Imperial City Prison. Those notes are below. Our overall goal is for you to be able to collect sets with the Traits you desire, and do so at a quicker pace than before. With the significant drop rate increases detailed below, it will now be easier for you to complete these sets with your desired Traits. You will also be able to assemble an entire set with any Trait faster than before.

We’ve increased the chance of Bosses in Imperial City Prison and White-Gold Tower dropping Set Items.
Bosses in the Normal mode of Imperial City Prison and White-Gold Tower will now drop a set item 50% of the time.

Bosses in the Veteran mode of Imperial City Prison and White-Gold Tower will now drop a set item 100% of the time.

Champions in the Imperial City Prison will drop a Set item 10% of the time, on both Normal and Veteran modes. The Clivia's Dragonguard fight in Normal White-Gold Tower will drop a Set Item 30% of the time; on Veteran, 100% of the time.

The addition of the missing Traits (Sturdy, Training, and Prosperous) were to bring these item sets in-line with the Trait options for those you receive from killing monsters in those same dungeons. Thank you for calling to our attention the missing patch notes—they will be included in the launch Dark Brotherhood patch notes.

We’ll continue to monitor the drop-rates and the Traits after the Dark Brotherhood update launch. As always, we appreciate your feedback!

Oakmontowls_ESO · May 2016

Any idea what is considered a champion to them? Like are we talking just the dragon guard, scission of wrath and the atro thing at the beginning (in vwgt) or would this also include things like crematorium guard and the more powerful xyvkin?

notimetocare · May 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

When I returned to ESO a few months ago I thought it was a great design to have a normal version of the new dungeons coupled with a more challenging version of the same dungeons. When TG dropped I felt Zos had finally started designing the trials as they should have been from the beginning with a normal version and a more challenging version and no longer shutting a group down once they had X number of deaths.

This design catered to players who challenge themselves to get the most out of their characters and have a lot of time to spend in game and provide enjoyment to those who spend less time in game, the player who we generally call a casual or moderate player.

The game must cater to both sides of the spectrum to have good long term success.

However, we are facing a nerf to the only 4 man dungeons that provide the slightest challenge to those that have worked hard at it and their characters over the months. These dungeons also drop what is considered the BiS gear for some build that require huge RNG to get the gear and the gear in the desired traits.

Today on the PTS more traits were added to the drops for those gear sets in at lest the vaults for the respective dungeons decreasing the challenge of obtaining the desired trait by almost half.

I ask the devs what reason we have to continue running these dungeons if they are boring due to lack of challenge and the gear is almost double the already long grind to obtain? No challenge and no gear is a waste of time.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_TristanK @ZOS_GaryA @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Finn @zos_seiffer

Then find something else to do with your life?

Ep1kMalware · May 2016

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

This is veru true. As far as already being a challenge, thats not even the case. I ran 2 new people through prison last night. first run was a practice run, with hardmode achievement. The second run one guy left so we pulled in a guildmate and we got a nodeath speedrun with no healer.

I've pulled alot of folks throught vwgt tanking on my dps character. More like taunting with some extra dodgerolls. All fast, smooth runs. We dont need a nerf, half these people just want spellpower cure. This nerf harms everybody.

I dont mind the health nerf, it helps us farmers farm, but the damage nerfs are uncalled for. I nodeath tank with 15k health in medium armour not blocking already.

Sounds like medium armor needs a nerf !

And increase roll dodge cost 500% immediately!

SienneYviete · May 2016

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

Any idea what is considered a champion to them? Like are we talking just the dragon guard, scission of wrath and the atro thing at the beginning (in vwgt) or would this also include things like crematorium guard and the more powerful xyvkin?

As far as I know the dragonguard in WGT and lord wardens council in ICP are considered champions while the rest are bosses.

Ep1kMalware · May 2016

SienneYviete wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

Any idea what is considered a champion to them? Like are we talking just the dragon guard, scission of wrath and the atro thing at the beginning (in vwgt) or would this also include things like crematorium guard and the more powerful xyvkin?

As far as I know the dragonguard in WGT and lord wardens council in ICP are considered champions while the rest are bosses.

That makes sense, but the dragon guard got cursed. I just thought it meant xyvkin elite. So this is a good question indeed.

acw37162 · May 2016

Funny, you want to cater to both groups for long term success but not at the expense of the content you want to be left alone.

These changes are for other content, I presume.

You have had the better part of 6 months to farm VWGT and VICP till your fingers are blue and numb from mouse clicks or controller work.

ZOS has six months of actual data on attempts and clears for these dungeons and they obviously are not where ZOS wants them.

So for he people who have mastered VWGT and VICP congratulations ZOS is reducing the bell curve and allowing others to play in your playground, sorry not sorry. And while not a dungeon will have given You two Veteran mode trials to keep you occupied until they give you new dungeons.

Which I will bet dollars to doughnuts you will get to play with for six months until they adjust them to.

This is as you out it good for the long term health of the game.

Mush55 · May 2016

Practice, practice , practice 3 manned wgt yesterday no tank and im not the best player but did it with 1 wipe.

Also got a random icp run ,now only done that one a couple of times the guys were brilliant and we blasted through it with me dieing 3 time due to not being to sure of certian things.

Needles to say because I listened they have invited me to come on the next runs they do.

As I said above these dungeons dont need a nerf the players who struggle just need to practice instead of giving in afte 2 or 3 wipes

Valrien · May 2016

acw37162 wrote: »

Funny, you want to cater to both groups for long term success but not at the expense of the content you want to be left alone.

These changes are for other content, I presume.

You have had the better part of 6 months to farm VWGT and VICP till your fingers are blue and numb from mouse clicks or controller work.

ZOS has six months of actual data on attempts and clears for these dungeons and they obviously are not where ZOS wants them.

So for he people who have mastered VWGT and VICP congratulations ZOS is reducing the bell curve and allowing others to play in your playground, sorry not sorry. And while not a dungeon will have given You two Veteran mode trials to keep you occupied until they give you new dungeons.

Which I will bet dollars to doughnuts you will get to play with for six months until they adjust them to.

This is as you out it good for the long term health of the game.

Generally before you nerf old content you put out content to replace it. There isn't any new dungeons coming out to replace vWGT and vICP.

idk · May 2016

notimetocare wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

When I returned to ESO a few months ago I thought it was a great design to have a normal version of the new dungeons coupled with a more challenging version of the same dungeons. When TG dropped I felt Zos had finally started designing the trials as they should have been from the beginning with a normal version and a more challenging version and no longer shutting a group down once they had X number of deaths.

This design catered to players who challenge themselves to get the most out of their characters and have a lot of time to spend in game and provide enjoyment to those who spend less time in game, the player who we generally call a casual or moderate player.

The game must cater to both sides of the spectrum to have good long term success.

However, we are facing a nerf to the only 4 man dungeons that provide the slightest challenge to those that have worked hard at it and their characters over the months. These dungeons also drop what is considered the BiS gear for some build that require huge RNG to get the gear and the gear in the desired traits.

Today on the PTS more traits were added to the drops for those gear sets in at lest the vaults for the respective dungeons decreasing the challenge of obtaining the desired trait by almost half.

I ask the devs what reason we have to continue running these dungeons if they are boring due to lack of challenge and the gear is almost double the already long grind to obtain? No challenge and no gear is a waste of time.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_TristanK @ZOS_GaryA @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Finn @zos_seiffer

Then find something else to do with your life?

A pointless post. Narrow minded.

idk · May 2016

acw37162 wrote: »

Funny, you want to cater to both groups for long term success but not at the expense of the content you want to be left alone.

These changes are for other content, I presume.

You have had the better part of 6 months to farm VWGT and VICP till your fingers are blue and numb from mouse clicks or controller work.

ZOS has six months of actual data on attempts and clears for these dungeons and they obviously are not where ZOS wants them.

So for he people who have mastered VWGT and VICP congratulations ZOS is reducing the bell curve and allowing others to play in your playground, sorry not sorry. And while not a dungeon will have given You two Veteran mode trials to keep you occupied until they give you new dungeons.

Which I will bet dollars to doughnuts you will get to play with for six months until they adjust them to.

This is as you out it good for the long term health of the game.

The premise of your post, the first sentence, demonstrates you have failed to read my thread and maybe are unrealistic or not familiar of the live versions of these two dungeons.

The current live versions offer a vet dungeon for those up to the challenge and a normal version for those that are not. Now the vet version is becoming more like the normal leaving absolutely zero challenge for the rest of us.

DjSolJAH · May 2016

Because the game has become stale and boring and aside from vMSA it's the only "difficult" content left aside from trials

OrphanHelgen · May 2016

its ok to nerf it so its safer with pugs and quicker to farm.
But I dont want scatching mage in training!

Btw, before we used to do a prison run with persons to test for guilds. What can we test them in now? Maelstrom score?

idk · May 2016

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

its ok to nerf it so its safer with pugs and quicker to farm.
But I dont want scatching mage in training!

Btw, before we used to do a prison run with persons to test for guilds. What can we test them in now? Maelstrom score?

Why are you concerned with testing. If your ok with nerfing these dungeons to make it easier to put why not nerf everything so everything is safer. Then all decent players will find another game due to boredom.

kadar · May 2016

Valrien wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Funny, you want to cater to both groups for long term success but not at the expense of the content you want to be left alone.

These changes are for other content, I presume.

You have had the better part of 6 months to farm VWGT and VICP till your fingers are blue and numb from mouse clicks or controller work.

ZOS has six months of actual data on attempts and clears for these dungeons and they obviously are not where ZOS wants them.

So for he people who have mastered VWGT and VICP congratulations ZOS is reducing the bell curve and allowing others to play in your playground, sorry not sorry. And while not a dungeon will have given You two Veteran mode trials to keep you occupied until they give you new dungeons.

Which I will bet dollars to doughnuts you will get to play with for six months until they adjust them to.

This is as you out it good for the long term health of the game.

Generally before you nerf old content you put out content to replace it. There isn't any new dungeons coming out to replace vWGT and vICP.

Exactly. YES, there are people that have not (yet) mastered vICP/vWGT, but THAT is something that is good for the long-term health of the game. MMOs simply do not get better when they get easier. There are plenty of precedents for this.

What ZOS has done is take from the ~5% of hard content, and added it to the already ~95% of easy content that makes up ESO. Almost the entire game already caters to the "casual" or non-min/maxed player. There must be hard 4 man content for the games health alone. And like Valrien said, there's no new content to replace what vICP/vWGT provided: reasonably challenging 4-man content.