Grouping, Hybrid Builds, and Theorycraft

Psyonico · May 2016

Hi all,

Been playing the game on and off for a little over a year now and think I am finally starting to understand some of the combat mechanics (though, to be honest, a lot of the information i'm finding online is 2 years old, so I don't know how accurate it is.)

my MMO background comes mostly from City of Heroes, which handled teaming conventions very different than any other MMO I've seen, but I think that ESO may have the potential, if not to the same extent.

Rather than focusing on Healer-DPS-Tank holy trinity, COH teams were most effective by stacking buffs and debuffs, making a team of all support-class way stronger than a "balanced" team.

Now onto the thinking/questions.

I know that "Hybrid builds" are far from meta, you sacrifice damage for safety, and safety for damage, etc, but how about when this is combined over several individuals? example:

Currently I'm running a Breton magic NB with 5 heavy/2 light armor. I have no problem with AOE damage, though my ST is a bit lacking. I also don't really have the defense to be a full on tank.
However, if I modified my build, and had a team that had flexible builds as well, including things like Circle of Protection, and Blood Alter, along with 2nd bar Resto staffs with 1 or 2 AoE heals, individual class buffs/debuffs for damage mitigation and extra damage, and rather than taunting enemies, rely on roughly the same damage output per player to cause aggro to naturally shift (with the occasional taunt thrown in to save a struggling ally) can this work?

Naturally this is a total break of everything the playerbase as a whole works with, and is not the kind of thing that would ever be widespread, but could you, hypothetically, run end-game content this way? What else would you throw in the mix?

TL;DR: Is the holy trinity (Tank/Healer/DPS) really the end-all-be-all?

Acsvf · May 2016

Hybrids in this game generally refers to characters who use both magicka and stamina scaling abilities. These you generally should stay away from, at least for the foreseeable future.

Mixing roles generally should work, but I would not suggest it be done in the way that you have mentioned. For example, a templar tank who heals both themselves and their allies or a magicka healer that dps' when healing isn't neededworks because it's complementary, but relying on having every character do every role all the time probably won't. Tanking, for example, requires you to be dedicated because if you are just 'more tanky' the only result is that you won't be one shotted like everybody else.

ZakuBeta · May 2016

I am wondering if the poison thing is meant to make hybrids viable again. A good defense, it appears, is to be able to draw from both resources, as it looks like you can't mix the magicka/stamina reduction poisons into one poison. So a character who can use both will be less affected by being hit by one of the reduction poisons.

DeadlyRecluse · May 2016

Having an "off" role is always a plus for PvP (off heals are really important, and the ability to turtle a bit and be tanky when focused can be useful).

But for PvE, achieving top DPS usually takes up most/all of your skill slots. And while tanks and healers contribute to DPS, for most groups it just works better for them to focus on their roles (unless you are in a clutch 3-4 DPS run).

Psyonico · May 2016

Acsvf wrote: »

Mixing roles generally should work, but I would not suggest it be done in the way that you have mentioned. For example, a templar tank who heals both themselves and their allies or a magicka healer that dps' when healing isn't neededworks because it's complementary, but relying on having every character do every role all the time probably won't. Tanking, for example, requires you to be dedicated because if you are just 'more tanky' the only result is that you won't be one shotted like everybody else.

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

But for PvE, achieving top DPS usually takes up most/all of your skill slots. And while tanks and healers contribute to DPS, for most groups it just works better for them to focus on their roles (unless you are in a clutch 3-4 DPS run).

I think you guys are missing the point. I recognize that on the individual level mixed roles is not optimum. I'm talking about overall team composition. Are 2 DPS running at 100% really better than 4 mixed builds who can do 80%?

Do you need a dedicated tank when all 4 players have solid mitigation and can manage aggro?

Is a dedicated healer better than a team that can share support abilities?

I'm purely talking about PvE in this case. PvP has far more variables that would need to be taken into consideration

Acsvf · May 2016

Psyonico wrote: »

Do you need a dedicated tank when all 4 players have solid mitigation and can manage aggro?

That's the issue.
With a highly experienced group it's possible and honestly perfectly viable to go 4 DPS and just not get hit at all, but if you're expecting to get hit then you'll need a dedicated tank.

leshpar · May 2016

I play a hybrid character that heals in dungeons and has a second set of gear for stam dps when I am solo. My 2 bars are resto staff and dual daggers. I can solo pretty much anything in pve out in the world, even the group bosses, and I have never had anyone complain about my lack of healing ability.

DeadlyRecluse · May 2016

Psyonico wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

But for PvE, achieving top DPS usually takes up most/all of your skill slots. And while tanks and healers contribute to DPS, for most groups it just works better for them to focus on their roles (unless you are in a clutch 3-4 DPS run).

I think you guys are missing the point. I recognize that on the individual level mixed roles is not optimum. I'm talking about overall team composition. Are 2 DPS running at 100% really better than 4 mixed builds who can do 80%?

Do you need a dedicated tank when all 4 players have solid mitigation and can manage aggro?

Is a dedicated healer better than a team that can share support abilities?

I'm purely talking about PvE in this case. PvP has far more variables that would need to be taken into consideration

I get what you are saying--and 4 DPS packing their own heals, playing fight mechanics CAN pass 90 percent of the 4-man content in this game. Hell, most of it can be duoed or soloed by good players.

But for endgame PvE--trials and whatnot--running at 80 percent just isn't good enough. And there are still a few fights in 4-man content that become miles easier with a designated tank and healer (or tank/healer).

So...sure, kind of what you are talking about works, for some stuff. But running actual endgame content, especially if you are using

Psyonico wrote: »

things like Circle of Protection, and Blood Alter

, without the trinity, it's going to be rough.

Just my opinion, YMMV.

Psyonico · May 2016

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

...sure, kind of what you are talking about works, for some stuff. But running actual endgame content, especially if you are using

Psyonico wrote: »

things like Circle of Protection, and Blood Alter

, without the trinity, it's going to be rough.

Just my opinion, YMMV.

Without actually having tried it. Is circle of protection's 8% damage reduction not useful?

failkiwib16_ESO · May 2016

It's better to have a shield up + blocking or dodgerolling than using Circle of Protection.

Hybrid builds are very good, but only with certain groups.

Some damage dealers dislike running with hybrids, because they need dedicated roles that does resource management for them. These players often lack sustainability of their resources, so they need to be fed stamina or magicka as much as possible during fights.
Some damage dealers love running with hybrids, because they can be 3 damage dealers + 1 tank/healer, so the fights go faster - often these damage dealers have a tiny bit higher sustain than the ones mentioned above.
Some groups prefer to have an off-healer and an off-tank, all 4 players deal damage. These can be the same type of damage dealers, that dislike running with hybrids - because in a team of 4 equal dps players, they burn things down fast enough so that resource management will not stand in their way. They use minimum resources on healing and tanking.

Hybrids have more access to utilities, that is why it's best to take at least 1 support role, if you play a hybrid. Such as:
Tank/DD
Tank/Heal
Heal/DD (althought stamina DD & heal is bad combo, you gain most from being a pure magicka Heal/DD than you do as a stamina or hybrid Heal/DD.)

Hybrids are not viable for trials, because the enemies there are extremely hard compared to group dungeon enemies. There are also many DPS-checks, if your group does not pull enough damage during a boss-fight within certain amount of time, the boss will kill the entire group. So it doesn't matter how good you are at supporting eachother, if you don't have the damage in order, your entire group dies.

Hybrids are very viable for group dungeons in support roles, as I mentioned above. Because they have great access to a wide amount of utilities, that more dedicated builds don't have.

Different groups synergize differently, and v16's achieving about 15-17k dps as a hybrid build can be done, and that is enough to get through all group dungeons.

This is a cute example of a hybrid Tank/Healer, and for that matter all 3 Damage Dealers in the group could be hybrids dealing damage: The Differently Geared: Pro Tanking This group is far from optimal, and some hybrid Damage Dealers would wipe them sideways, but they are having fun and enjoy the game at their own speed.