Boneshield - Can we get 1 stam scaling morph and 1 health scaling morph.

Cathexis · May 2016

It doesn't have to be complicated.

I'm all for health builds having access to more tanking utilities, but stam builds need a way to absorb excessively high damage too. You even said it yourselves in your combat changes sticky: damage shields are a utility for absorbing stacked burst damage. We need that utility too. Just like mag builds and health builds.

Taisynn · May 2016

I agree. A morph option would please both sides and add more versatility to the kinds of builds people can make. I don't see why they can't do that. It certainly wouldn't hurt anyone's feelings (or so I hope.) Many people were excited about the potential for a stamina shield.

Cathexis · May 2016

Taisynn wrote: »

I agree. A morph option would please both sides and add more versatility to the kinds of builds people can make. I don't see why they can't do that. It certainly wouldn't hurt anyone's feelings (or so I hope.) Many people were excited about the potential for a stamina shield.

I was jacked about it. I've polished my stam sorc tank and the biggest thing holding it back is a lack of reliable focus fire defense.

I really can't see anyone getting their heartbroken over this since only a small minority seem to even use health scaling shields.

exiledtyrant · May 2016

I'm not seeing where the big push for stamina bone shield is coming from. If your using a stamina tank your health should be higher than your stamina to begin with. If your a DPS using a stamina race you will more than likely be in the 40k stamina range. That's a 12k shield in PvE and a 6k shield in PvP. If for some reason you forgo the much better mitigation or healing CP passives you could get another 600-900 more shield for a build that uses no other shield.

That still leaves it under 7k. Shields in PvP go by a "you must be this tall to enter" limit and 7k isn't it. Shielding in PvE was likely going to be outclassed by healing because heals crit in an environment where crit rating can get as far as 90%+.

Tormy · May 2016

Why put anything into health if the shield scales off max stamina? Having the shield scale off max health is better for diversity. You want a bigger shield? Stack more health. We shouldn't be limited to just maxing stam for survivability IMO

Cathexis · May 2016

exiledtyrant wrote: »

I'm not seeing where the big push for stamina bone shield is coming from. If your using a stamina tank your health should be higher than your stamina to begin with. If your a DPS using a stamina race you will more than likely be in the 40k stamina range. That's a 12k shield in PvE and a 6k shield in PvP. If for some reason you forgo the much better mitigation or healing CP passives you could get another 600-900 more shield for a build that uses no other shield.

That still leaves it under 7k. Shields in PvP go by a "you must be this tall to enter" limit and 7k isn't it. Shielding in PvE was likely going to be outclassed by healing because heals crit in an environment where crit rating can get as far as 90%+.

A 7k shield would go an extremely long way for my build. Also good luck health stacking a stam sorc in heavy and doing any damage. Youd basically only be useful in pillow fights. Currently I have to work with a huge health deficit to get adequate regen, enough resources to cast, and barely adequate damage. A 7k spammable damage shield would be a perfect buffer between incoming damage and the time it takes to regen. You also have to factor in stacking hardened ward on top and any other comparable shield buffs.

Cathexis · May 2016

Tormy wrote: »

Why put anything into health if the shield scales off max stamina? Having the shield scale off max health is better for diversity. You want a bigger shield? Stack more health. We shouldn't be limited to just maxing stam for survivability IMO

The same argument could be made about offering a morph in each category. It's better for diversity. You can still use health if you want to. No one is stopping you.

zuto40 · May 2016

There is no reason this shouldnt happen

PainfulFAFA · May 2016

If they think scaling it to stam was TOO OP, maybe give the stamina version a flat value or something

Khaos_Bane · May 2016

TOO OP. PERIOD.

/lockthread

EsoRecon · May 2016

No

Tormy · May 2016

Cathexis wrote: »

Tormy wrote: »

Why put anything into health if the shield scales off max stamina? Having the shield scale off max health is better for diversity. You want a bigger shield? Stack more health. We shouldn't be limited to just maxing stam for survivability IMO

The same argument could be made about offering a morph in each category. It's better for diversity. You can still use health if you want to. No one is stopping you.

That's the thing, if it scaled with stam then why even stack health? There would be no reason as stacking stam is better for every situation over health (damage, blocking, breaking free, roll dodging). So now if someone wants a shield they need some "build diversity" and stack a little health instead of going full stam.

Ajaxduo · May 2016

Here comes the magicka tears!

Ghost-Shot · May 2016

Stamina is already really strong for this patch, a damage shield on top of an already strong tool kit would be way over the top.

Jaronking · May 2016

Personally. I feel they should do that with all shields if they make Bone shields scale with Health all shields should be like that.

Elder_III · May 2016

A morph for Stamina and Health seems sensible to me.

dodgehopper_ESO · May 2016

The only thing I have to say here is that Health is not meaningful enough as a stat.

Calboy · May 2016

Sorry mate. Even though a stam sorc could benefit, other classes such as a stam dk would be too op.

Justice31st · May 2016

Lol @ the players who want to hit strong with max stamina and have just as strong damage mitigation in return. OP much?

Strider_Roshin · May 2016

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

TOO OP. PERIOD.

/lockthread

Yes, only magicka is allowed to be OP.

Farorin · May 2016

That would be a nice option.

Farorin · May 2016

Calboy wrote: »

Sorry mate. Even though a stam sorc could benefit, other classes such as a stam dk would be too op.

There are soo many counters and measures against shields now, it wouldn't be a problem.

Minalan · May 2016

Don't care. With no points to spare in bastion, a Stam build will end up with a 4-5K shield. Big f****** deal.

A Stam build that DOES put points into bastion is missing out on a s***-ton of damage.

Now can we please fix sorc shields too?

Cathexis · May 2016

Tormy wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Tormy wrote: »

Why put anything into health if the shield scales off max stamina? Having the shield scale off max health is better for diversity. You want a bigger shield? Stack more health. We shouldn't be limited to just maxing stam for survivability IMO

The same argument could be made about offering a morph in each category. It's better for diversity. You can still use health if you want to. No one is stopping you.

That's the thing, if it scaled with stam then why even stack health? There would be no reason as stacking stam is better for every situation over health (damage, blocking, breaking free, roll dodging). So now if someone wants a shield they need some "build diversity" and stack a little health instead of going full stam.

So its ok for mag builds to put full offensive stats and get a defensive utility, but stam builds have to split and sacrifice offense? Seems kind of biased to me. Seems like you are just trying to force people who are stam to go health if they want shields. Thats not build diversity, its pigeonholing. Its saying "You must do A to have B, or you must do C to have D." Diversity means "You can do A or you can do B, and either way you can have C and/or D." It means opening up combinations, not locking them down.

But lets say I take your argument for a moment, then the only option is for me to start calling out to nerf mag shields.

Nerfing things is not the answer. Nerfing things is what brings the game down, instead of balancing them.

GreenSoup2HoT · May 2016

I'm kind of happy it's back to max health. That mean's my imperial can get more use out of it. I wanted to run the Orsinium Max Health and Stamina Recovery food on him with Clever Alchemist. Since Clever Alchemist has two bonuses of health, i should be able to pull off a decent shield and provide synergy's for my stam friends.

Personally i think the 5 second duration is pretty lame.. however all shields are now 6 seconds.

Cathexis · May 2016

Furthermore...You can have high health and be able to spam shields if you also stack stam regen. Thats not a problem. Thats a defensive combo, health + shields, and you still get roll static cost roll dodge at the same relative rate as everyone else (costs are exponential as you dodge, so your most efficient dodges wait for the dodge cost increase period to end, during which time you regen, on any build irrespective of health or stam base).

Now we look at it the other way. Damage + more sequential exponential cost dodges due to higher stam. Great. But why can't I, instead of using those resources on sequential dodges, instead invest in shields. I'm going to assume that dodge roll and shields are, as it keeps being suggested, equitable.

If thats the case, then you have to consider that the amount of resources as a stam/dps build I have to invest in either one still remains finite.

Lets say I can static rolldodge or shield X times. I can't do both at the same time, I can only choose one or the other. Then I can most cost efficiently roll dodge and spam shields in between roll dodge cost increase periods, but I lose shield casts during roll dodge. So the difference between a shield spamming mag build and a shield spamming stam build in that regard is that every few seconds I get a brief, 1 second immunity to projectile or melee based attacks and their extra effects, and I can CC break a bit more, at the cost of popping a new damage shield or two (to resist channeled/aoe/dot/etcetc attacks). The drawback? CC breaks and also extra dodge rolls will come at the cost of my offensive resource pool (a problem which mag builds don't face, although admittedly, mag builds get less dodge rolls and cc breaks, so they are more apt to simply constantly spam shields, but again the benefit is that your dodge rolls and cc breaks are separate resources from your offensive pool).

Furthermore, damage+shields, by your own argument, would be a sacrifice of some defensive options. It means less tanking for more damage. This means, compared to health builds, I do less direct damage tanking, but I can CC break more and do a few more exponential cost dodge rolls.

TLDR: Fundamentally, there is still a choice. Health + Shields for more tanking, or Stam + Shields for more damage/CC breaks/exponential cost dodge rolls, or Mag + Shields for precision CC+dodge/pure shield spam/separate dodge+CC and damage resource pools.

Boom: Build Diversity.

Ep1kMalware · May 2016

I agree there should be 2 morphs. By the time you have enough health to make the shield worthwhile you won't need it. I was actually looking forward to using this in vmsa on my stamplar. Would save me a lot of agony in round 5

LorDrek · May 2016

Yes, stamina need same system as magicka, need 1 morph scaled to stam.

GRYM.LOCKE · May 2016

Elder_III wrote: »

A morph for Stamina and Health seems sensible to me.

I agree 100%

For the PVE environment / Story/ to play " how you want " "the way you want" we need to stop this changing of PVE for PVP sake

get rid of PVP would be good but never going to happen

Ep1kMalware · May 2016

GRYM.LOCKE wrote: »

Elder_III wrote: »

A morph for Stamina and Health seems sensible to me.

I agree 100%

For the PVE environment / Story/ to play " how you want " "the way you want" we need to stop this changing of PVE for PVP sake

get rid of PVP would be good but never going to happen

I agree, pvp is harming the game more than anything else. I don't blame the players. Really it's Zenimax not thinking things through. Pvp players aren't at fault that there's a huge lack of competative skills and gear out there. Instead of build diversity we all get pushed into the same build meta, others will come out ahead (stam dk), and the whole process starts anew.

KenaPKK · May 2016

ZOS realized that stamina shouldn't have a strong shield as long as they can dodge roll so many more times as magicka.

Bone Shield never should have scaled with max stam to begin with.

GRYM.LOCKE wrote: »

Elder_III wrote: »

A morph for Stamina and Health seems sensible to me.

I agree 100%

For the PVE environment / Story/ to play " how you want " "the way you want" we need to stop this changing of PVE for PVP sake

get rid of PVP would be good but never going to happen

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

GRYM.LOCKE wrote: »

Elder_III wrote: »

A morph for Stamina and Health seems sensible to me.

I agree 100%

For the PVE environment / Story/ to play " how you want " "the way you want" we need to stop this changing of PVE for PVP sake

get rid of PVP would be good but never going to happen

I agree, pvp is harming the game more than anything else. I don't blame the players. Really it's Zenimax not thinking things through. Pvp players aren't at fault that there's a huge lack of competative skills and gear out there. Instead of build diversity we all get pushed into the same build meta, others will come out ahead (stam dk), and the whole process starts anew.

This is primarily a PvP game -- or at least it was developed with that intent.

It is also entirely possible for the game to be balanced between PvP and PvE.

Do not fault PvP for ZOS' incompetence in balancing their game. Their methods have been consistently poor and half-assed. That doesn't make PvP bad for the game.

If they would balance player skills and sets around PvP and then balance PvE mobs, zones, and encounters around the resulting player characters, then all would be well. The problem is that ZOS balances for PvE first, then uses band-aid fixes for PvP, breaks something that never should have been broken to begin with, and then nerfs it for both PvP and PvE.