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Why NB's are OP in 1 picture
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genjutsu_kami✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Or that one gal going on about NB burst heals...nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
No accounting for scrubs. Jules just straight called us all biased for disagreeing with her and playing Nightblade. Great debate tactic
no actually she's probably just tired of showing factual evidence of how night blades as a class have head over heels buffs compared to every other class in the game ..... which is FACT and yet night blade players will come on here deny the fact that they have more buffs and more alternatives than any other class, not only do you make claims that these abilities are not used by "top tier PVP players" (thats what you claim) you also argue that you need more assistance in improving night blades when you not only have a buff in the PTS and now do disease damage.....which will be more potent with new poisons ..... you also have an instant dps ability that hits very hard and has a low cost.... with a super low cost ultimate that stuns at all times with debuffs and damage buffs......if you asked me she has kept it classy.
I really don't understand why the delusion in some of these comments is overshadowing actual FACT... night blades have more buffs and are more efficient in their class abilities. You can not Tell me these statements are not FACT..... you probably won't and divert the question with a false argument that night blades suffer from being competitive in PVP. (classic night blade bias defence)
Plurality of buffs does not equal OP. It's focusing on one aspect of a clas to the exclusion of all others sand presenting it at the whole picture. An example: Templars have no spammable single target skill. That is a true statement. However, it excludes that they have Jabs, one of the most OP monster skills in the game.
You can be technically correct about the things you're saying while leaving out a lot of information that is inconvenient to your argument. This is what Jules is doing, intentionally or not. And she's been extremely dismissive to everyone who tries to point this out. Considering how long we've known each other and the general respect we've expressed for the others' skills over that time, I'm quite taken aback she'd rather dismiss my opinions as biased.
just to clarify on your statement are you STATING.... surprise attack is not the best instant stam dps ability in the game? is that what you are saying ....... just to be clear.
Another good example of what I'm talking about. Is it the best single target instant cast Stam DPS ability ? Probably. But as a Nightblade I'd use Dizzying Swing over SA. Always have. I also think Jabs > SA if we want to make multi class comparisons.
It's ok for classes to have the best of some things. It's not ok present those as evidence of class imbalance without context.
Thank you for clarify that for me and i am not being condescending here I'm actually glad a night blade player can state a fact with out digressing.
they do have the best stam instant dps ability. from a perspective of balance should this ability not be adapted to other abilities that are in the same context of class ability in terms of damage potential and efficiency of its utility. this question is not for just this one ability but for the class itself.0 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Or that one gal going on about NB burst heals...nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
No accounting for scrubs. Jules just straight called us all biased for disagreeing with her and playing Nightblade. Great debate tactic
no actually she's probably just tired of showing factual evidence of how night blades as a class have head over heels buffs compared to every other class in the game ..... which is FACT and yet night blade players will come on here deny the fact that they have more buffs and more alternatives than any other class, not only do you make claims that these abilities are not used by "top tier PVP players" (thats what you claim) you also argue that you need more assistance in improving night blades when you not only have a buff in the PTS and now do disease damage.....which will be more potent with new poisons ..... you also have an instant dps ability that hits very hard and has a low cost.... with a super low cost ultimate that stuns at all times with debuffs and damage buffs......if you asked me she has kept it classy.
I really don't understand why the delusion in some of these comments is overshadowing actual FACT... night blades have more buffs and are more efficient in their class abilities. You can not Tell me these statements are not FACT..... you probably won't and divert the question with a false argument that night blades suffer from being competitive in PVP. (classic night blade bias defence)
Plurality of buffs does not equal OP. It's focusing on one aspect of a clas to the exclusion of all others sand presenting it at the whole picture. An example: Templars have no spammable single target skill. That is a true statement. However, it excludes that they have Jabs, one of the most OP monster skills in the game.
You can be technically correct about the things you're saying while leaving out a lot of information that is inconvenient to your argument. This is what Jules is doing, intentionally or not. And she's been extremely dismissive to everyone who tries to point this out. Considering how long we've known each other and the general respect we've expressed for the others' skills over that time, I'm quite taken aback she'd rather dismiss my opinions as biased.
just to clarify on your statement are you STATING.... surprise attack is not the best instant stam dps ability in the game? is that what you are saying ....... just to be clear.
Another good example of what I'm talking about. Is it the best single target instant cast Stam DPS ability ? Probably. But as a Nightblade I'd use Dizzying Swing over SA. Always have. I also think Jabs > SA if we want to make multi class comparisons.
It's ok for classes to have the best of some things. It's not ok present those as evidence of class imbalance without context.
Thank you for clarify that for me and i am not being condescending here I'm actually glad a night blade player can state a fact with out digressing.
they do have the best stam instant dps ability. from a perspective of balance should this ability not be adapted to other abilities that are in the same context of class ability in terms of damage potential and efficiency of its utility. this question is not for just this one ability but for the class itself.
I don't understand what you're implying. Would you mind restating for me? I'd rather not misrepresent your argument in my reply.Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Or that one gal going on about NB burst heals...nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
No accounting for scrubs. Jules just straight called us all biased for disagreeing with her and playing Nightblade. Great debate tactic
no actually she's probably just tired of showing factual evidence of how night blades as a class have head over heels buffs compared to every other class in the game ..... which is FACT and yet night blade players will come on here deny the fact that they have more buffs and more alternatives than any other class, not only do you make claims that these abilities are not used by "top tier PVP players" (thats what you claim) you also argue that you need more assistance in improving night blades when you not only have a buff in the PTS and now do disease damage.....which will be more potent with new poisons ..... you also have an instant dps ability that hits very hard and has a low cost.... with a super low cost ultimate that stuns at all times with debuffs and damage buffs......if you asked me she has kept it classy.
I really don't understand why the delusion in some of these comments is overshadowing actual FACT... night blades have more buffs and are more efficient in their class abilities. You can not Tell me these statements are not FACT..... you probably won't and divert the question with a false argument that night blades suffer from being competitive in PVP. (classic night blade bias defence)
Plurality of buffs does not equal OP. It's focusing on one aspect of a clas to the exclusion of all others sand presenting it at the whole picture. An example: Templars have no spammable single target skill. That is a true statement. However, it excludes that they have Jabs, one of the most OP monster skills in the game.
You can be technically correct about the things you're saying while leaving out a lot of information that is inconvenient to your argument. This is what Jules is doing, intentionally or not. And she's been extremely dismissive to everyone who tries to point this out. Considering how long we've known each other and the general respect we've expressed for the others' skills over that time, I'm quite taken aback she'd rather dismiss my opinions as biased.
just to clarify on your statement are you STATING.... surprise attack is not the best instant stam dps ability in the game? is that what you are saying ....... just to be clear.
Another good example of what I'm talking about. Is it the best single target instant cast Stam DPS ability ? Probably. But as a Nightblade I'd use Dizzying Swing over SA. Always have. I also think Jabs > SA if we want to make multi class comparisons.
It's ok for classes to have the best of some things. It's not ok present those as evidence of class imbalance without context.
Actually you get more DPS with Jabs & Rapid Strikes, so by definition they'd be the better DPS abilities.
As for other uses, Surprise Attack sure has quite a few that makes it an attractive option. But is it really better than Jabs, or even Rapid Strikes?- Jabs counters NBs really hard by preventing any usage of Cloak. It also drains stamina much quicker than Surprise Attack and is an AoE, meaning it puts better pressure on opponents in 1vX. Also procs Skoria very well.
- Rapid Strikes is clunkier to use & animation cancel than Jabs (yes, it's quite easy to weave medium attacks inbetween) or Surprise Attack, but it deals the most single target DPS. Also, if you use vMSA dual wield weapons it synergizes well with DBOS (Dawnbreaker of Smiting) by boosting the DoT damage of the ultimate significantly. Also procs things like Skoria or Sorc Implosion passive very well.
- Surprise Attack can benefit from Major Empower & synergizes well with Cloak (on the rare occasions when it works), while also applying a debuff worth 8% mitigation on your opponent.
- Wrecking Blow is the ultimate combo skill next patch, providing you with the high burst spike of damage from connecting the skill itself & then applies Major Empower to the follow-up DBOS. A deadly combo for sure.
I'd say all these skills are pretty much even and which one you choose to use depends very much on your playstyle & the aim of your build. The balance here is spot on (for PvP) - and I don't get to say this very often when talking about this game.Edited by DDuke on May 15, 2016 11:48PM1 -
genjutsu_kami✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Or that one gal going on about NB burst heals...nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
No accounting for scrubs. Jules just straight called us all biased for disagreeing with her and playing Nightblade. Great debate tactic
no actually she's probably just tired of showing factual evidence of how night blades as a class have head over heels buffs compared to every other class in the game ..... which is FACT and yet night blade players will come on here deny the fact that they have more buffs and more alternatives than any other class, not only do you make claims that these abilities are not used by "top tier PVP players" (thats what you claim) you also argue that you need more assistance in improving night blades when you not only have a buff in the PTS and now do disease damage.....which will be more potent with new poisons ..... you also have an instant dps ability that hits very hard and has a low cost.... with a super low cost ultimate that stuns at all times with debuffs and damage buffs......if you asked me she has kept it classy.
I really don't understand why the delusion in some of these comments is overshadowing actual FACT... night blades have more buffs and are more efficient in their class abilities. You can not Tell me these statements are not FACT..... you probably won't and divert the question with a false argument that night blades suffer from being competitive in PVP. (classic night blade bias defence)
Plurality of buffs does not equal OP. It's focusing on one aspect of a clas to the exclusion of all others sand presenting it at the whole picture. An example: Templars have no spammable single target skill. That is a true statement. However, it excludes that they have Jabs, one of the most OP monster skills in the game.
You can be technically correct about the things you're saying while leaving out a lot of information that is inconvenient to your argument. This is what Jules is doing, intentionally or not. And she's been extremely dismissive to everyone who tries to point this out. Considering how long we've known each other and the general respect we've expressed for the others' skills over that time, I'm quite taken aback she'd rather dismiss my opinions as biased.
just to clarify on your statement are you STATING.... surprise attack is not the best instant stam dps ability in the game? is that what you are saying ....... just to be clear.
Another good example of what I'm talking about. Is it the best single target instant cast Stam DPS ability ? Probably. But as a Nightblade I'd use Dizzying Swing over SA. Always have. I also think Jabs > SA if we want to make multi class comparisons.
It's ok for classes to have the best of some things. It's not ok present those as evidence of class imbalance without context.
Actually you get more DPS with Jabs & Rapid Strikes, so by definition they'd be the better DPS abilities.
As for other uses, Surprise Attack sure has quite a few that makes it an attractive option. But is it really better than Jabs, or even Rapid Strikes?- Jabs counters NBs really hard by preventing any usage of Cloak. It also drains stamina much quicker than Surprise Attack and is an AoE, meaning it puts better pressure on opponents in 1vX. Also procs Skoria very well.
- Rapid Strikes is clunkier to use & animation cancel than Jabs (yes, it's quite easy to weave medium attacks inbetween) or Surprise Attack, but it deals the most single target DPS. Also, if you use vMSA dual wield weapons it synergizes well with DBOS (Dawnbreaker of Smiting) by boosting the DoT damage of the ultimate significantly. Also procs things like Skoria or Sorc Implosion passive very well.
- Surprise Attack can benefit from Major Empower & synergizes well with Cloak (on the rare occasions when it works), while also applying a debuff worth 8% mitigation on your opponent.
- Wrecking Blow is the ultimate combo skill next patch, providing you with the high burst spike of damage from connecting the skill itself & then applies Major Empower to the follow-up DBOS. A deadly combo for sure.
I'd say all these skills are pretty much even and which one you choose to use depends very much on your playstyle & the aim of your build. The balance here is spot on (for PvP) - and I don't get to say this very often when talking about this game.
so let me just clarify your detailed statement ...... are you suggesting/stating as a night blade player.... you would not pick surprise attack part of your Stamina night blade build in a PVP environment out of them abilities you have brought up in your statement above..... and you honestly stand on that SA is not the most efficient class ability out of the abilities you have suggested/stated.0 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Atleast he didn't claim Reaper's Mark is a burst heal... or that Blur returns magicka.
Reaper's mark is a burst heal. It heals for 60% of your max health.
And blur does not return magicka, true.
Please, no. Stahp. It's ok to be wrong sometimes, it happens to us all. Doubling and tripling down on mistakes does you no favors.
I'm not wrong. It IS a burst heal. Unless 60% of your max health is not bursty enough for you?
It's not an on demand burst heal comparable to BOL, but it is still a burst heal.
This is the height of pedantry. The entire point of a burst heal is that you need it Right Now, otherwise any old heal over time will do. Either it functions as a burst heal or it doesn't. And it demonstratively Does Not.
You will also remember that YOU raised this point in response to me saying that Nightblades lacked good defensive skills and burst heals. Even if I were so generous as to grant you that a "Heal on Kill" skill is a burst heal (it is not), it was at best a willful sidestepping of my argument. Countering "I have no burst heals" with "you have a non functioning and non viable burst heal" is NOT an acceptable answer.
just because the circumstances does not suit your vision of a burst heal doesn't mean it is not a burst heal notice how i identify your statement to something of perspective because thats what your statement translate to... a perspective point of view that is completely situational, it still does change the fact to when i log on and i go on my night blade that ability is still available and yes a burst heal regardless of your perspective of situations to use it in. that is a factual statement.
It's a heal on kill. It's not a burst heal, it's essentially a proc that can only proc when you don't need it because it procs when you WIN.
BOL is a burst heal. Do you see the difference between the two?
The only argument you have here is a purely pedantic one. If I relent on this silly argument you will have successful argued that the only possible class burst heal a Nightblade has is a skill that is so unviable that stamblades in 1.2 playing without access to vigor or rally found it a Waste of Space.
Congratulations, you played yourself.
Edit: but yeah, still not a burst heal. But it's ok, now you don't have to argue NB class heals are broken and need buffs!Edited by Satiar on May 15, 2016 11:57PMVehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost1 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Or that one gal going on about NB burst heals...nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
No accounting for scrubs. Jules just straight called us all biased for disagreeing with her and playing Nightblade. Great debate tactic
no actually she's probably just tired of showing factual evidence of how night blades as a class have head over heels buffs compared to every other class in the game ..... which is FACT and yet night blade players will come on here deny the fact that they have more buffs and more alternatives than any other class, not only do you make claims that these abilities are not used by "top tier PVP players" (thats what you claim) you also argue that you need more assistance in improving night blades when you not only have a buff in the PTS and now do disease damage.....which will be more potent with new poisons ..... you also have an instant dps ability that hits very hard and has a low cost.... with a super low cost ultimate that stuns at all times with debuffs and damage buffs......if you asked me she has kept it classy.
I really don't understand why the delusion in some of these comments is overshadowing actual FACT... night blades have more buffs and are more efficient in their class abilities. You can not Tell me these statements are not FACT..... you probably won't and divert the question with a false argument that night blades suffer from being competitive in PVP. (classic night blade bias defence)
Plurality of buffs does not equal OP. It's focusing on one aspect of a clas to the exclusion of all others sand presenting it at the whole picture. An example: Templars have no spammable single target skill. That is a true statement. However, it excludes that they have Jabs, one of the most OP monster skills in the game.
You can be technically correct about the things you're saying while leaving out a lot of information that is inconvenient to your argument. This is what Jules is doing, intentionally or not. And she's been extremely dismissive to everyone who tries to point this out. Considering how long we've known each other and the general respect we've expressed for the others' skills over that time, I'm quite taken aback she'd rather dismiss my opinions as biased.
just to clarify on your statement are you STATING.... surprise attack is not the best instant stam dps ability in the game? is that what you are saying ....... just to be clear.
Another good example of what I'm talking about. Is it the best single target instant cast Stam DPS ability ? Probably. But as a Nightblade I'd use Dizzying Swing over SA. Always have. I also think Jabs > SA if we want to make multi class comparisons.
It's ok for classes to have the best of some things. It's not ok present those as evidence of class imbalance without context.
Actually you get more DPS with Jabs & Rapid Strikes, so by definition they'd be the better DPS abilities.
As for other uses, Surprise Attack sure has quite a few that makes it an attractive option. But is it really better than Jabs, or even Rapid Strikes?- Jabs counters NBs really hard by preventing any usage of Cloak. It also drains stamina much quicker than Surprise Attack and is an AoE, meaning it puts better pressure on opponents in 1vX. Also procs Skoria very well.
- Rapid Strikes is clunkier to use & animation cancel than Jabs (yes, it's quite easy to weave medium attacks inbetween) or Surprise Attack, but it deals the most single target DPS. Also, if you use vMSA dual wield weapons it synergizes well with DBOS (Dawnbreaker of Smiting) by boosting the DoT damage of the ultimate significantly. Also procs things like Skoria or Sorc Implosion passive very well.
- Surprise Attack can benefit from Major Empower & synergizes well with Cloak (on the rare occasions when it works), while also applying a debuff worth 8% mitigation on your opponent.
- Wrecking Blow is the ultimate combo skill next patch, providing you with the high burst spike of damage from connecting the skill itself & then applies Major Empower to the follow-up DBOS. A deadly combo for sure.
I'd say all these skills are pretty much even and which one you choose to use depends very much on your playstyle & the aim of your build. The balance here is spot on (for PvP) - and I don't get to say this very often when talking about this game.
so let me just clarify your detailed statement ...... are you suggesting/stating as a night blade player.... you would not pick surprise attack part of your Stamina night blade build in a PVP environment out of them abilities you have brought up in your statement above..... and you honestly stand on that SA is not the most efficient class ability out of the abilities you have suggested/stated.
Wrecking Blow has always been King for Stam DPS with Nightblades. There's a reason they're nerfing it. Wrecking Blow heavy attack combos with an ambush/Crit charge thrown in > SA combos.
Yonkit would probably disagree with me, he loved SA. There is room for debate here for certain. But SA is far from being the undisputed single target King.Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Or that one gal going on about NB burst heals...nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
No accounting for scrubs. Jules just straight called us all biased for disagreeing with her and playing Nightblade. Great debate tactic
no actually she's probably just tired of showing factual evidence of how night blades as a class have head over heels buffs compared to every other class in the game ..... which is FACT and yet night blade players will come on here deny the fact that they have more buffs and more alternatives than any other class, not only do you make claims that these abilities are not used by "top tier PVP players" (thats what you claim) you also argue that you need more assistance in improving night blades when you not only have a buff in the PTS and now do disease damage.....which will be more potent with new poisons ..... you also have an instant dps ability that hits very hard and has a low cost.... with a super low cost ultimate that stuns at all times with debuffs and damage buffs......if you asked me she has kept it classy.
I really don't understand why the delusion in some of these comments is overshadowing actual FACT... night blades have more buffs and are more efficient in their class abilities. You can not Tell me these statements are not FACT..... you probably won't and divert the question with a false argument that night blades suffer from being competitive in PVP. (classic night blade bias defence)
Plurality of buffs does not equal OP. It's focusing on one aspect of a clas to the exclusion of all others sand presenting it at the whole picture. An example: Templars have no spammable single target skill. That is a true statement. However, it excludes that they have Jabs, one of the most OP monster skills in the game.
You can be technically correct about the things you're saying while leaving out a lot of information that is inconvenient to your argument. This is what Jules is doing, intentionally or not. And she's been extremely dismissive to everyone who tries to point this out. Considering how long we've known each other and the general respect we've expressed for the others' skills over that time, I'm quite taken aback she'd rather dismiss my opinions as biased.
just to clarify on your statement are you STATING.... surprise attack is not the best instant stam dps ability in the game? is that what you are saying ....... just to be clear.
Another good example of what I'm talking about. Is it the best single target instant cast Stam DPS ability ? Probably. But as a Nightblade I'd use Dizzying Swing over SA. Always have. I also think Jabs > SA if we want to make multi class comparisons.
It's ok for classes to have the best of some things. It's not ok present those as evidence of class imbalance without context.
Actually you get more DPS with Jabs & Rapid Strikes, so by definition they'd be the better DPS abilities.
As for other uses, Surprise Attack sure has quite a few that makes it an attractive option. But is it really better than Jabs, or even Rapid Strikes?- Jabs counters NBs really hard by preventing any usage of Cloak. It also drains stamina much quicker than Surprise Attack and is an AoE, meaning it puts better pressure on opponents in 1vX. Also procs Skoria very well.
- Rapid Strikes is clunkier to use & animation cancel than Jabs (yes, it's quite easy to weave medium attacks inbetween) or Surprise Attack, but it deals the most single target DPS. Also, if you use vMSA dual wield weapons it synergizes well with DBOS (Dawnbreaker of Smiting) by boosting the DoT damage of the ultimate significantly. Also procs things like Skoria or Sorc Implosion passive very well.
- Surprise Attack can benefit from Major Empower & synergizes well with Cloak (on the rare occasions when it works), while also applying a debuff worth 8% mitigation on your opponent.
- Wrecking Blow is the ultimate combo skill next patch, providing you with the high burst spike of damage from connecting the skill itself & then applies Major Empower to the follow-up DBOS. A deadly combo for sure.
I'd say all these skills are pretty much even and which one you choose to use depends very much on your playstyle & the aim of your build. The balance here is spot on (for PvP) - and I don't get to say this very often when talking about this game.
so let me just clarify your detailed statement ...... are you suggesting/stating as a night blade player.... you would not pick surprise attack part of your Stamina night blade build in a PVP environment out of them abilities you have brought up in your statement above..... and you honestly stand on that SA is not the most efficient class ability out of the abilities you have suggested/stated.
When I play on my nightblade (I currently do not play my nightblade, they are weak), I use Surprise Attack because it fits the playstyle I've envisioned for my Nightblade. I know plenty of extremely talented NBs who use Wrecking Blow however (and have used it for literally years), and next patch we'll see people using Rapid Strikes/Bloodthirst as well.
So yes, if I was to make a different build that plays differently I would not use Surprise Attack
And if I were a Stamina Sorc & had access to Surprise Attack, would I use it? No, because Bloodthirst synergizes much better with stamina sorcerer passives & crit surge.
I don't know what you mean by "efficient" (if you mean the stamina cost, those don't matter in a game where everyone has infinite resources), but is it the best stamina spammable? For some builds, for others not.Edited by DDuke on May 16, 2016 12:07AM0 -
genjutsu_kami✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Atleast he didn't claim Reaper's Mark is a burst heal... or that Blur returns magicka.
Reaper's mark is a burst heal. It heals for 60% of your max health.
And blur does not return magicka, true.
Please, no. Stahp. It's ok to be wrong sometimes, it happens to us all. Doubling and tripling down on mistakes does you no favors.
I'm not wrong. It IS a burst heal. Unless 60% of your max health is not bursty enough for you?
It's not an on demand burst heal comparable to BOL, but it is still a burst heal.
This is the height of pedantry. The entire point of a burst heal is that you need it Right Now, otherwise any old heal over time will do. Either it functions as a burst heal or it doesn't. And it demonstratively Does Not.
You will also remember that YOU raised this point in response to me saying that Nightblades lacked good defensive skills and burst heals. Even if I were so generous as to grant you that a "Heal on Kill" skill is a burst heal (it is not), it was at best a willful sidestepping of my argument. Countering "I have no burst heals" with "you have a non functioning and non viable burst heal" is NOT an acceptable answer.
just because the circumstances does not suit your vision of a burst heal doesn't mean it is not a burst heal notice how i identify your statement to something of perspective because thats what your statement translate to... a perspective point of view that is completely situational, it still does change the fact to when i log on and i go on my night blade that ability is still available and yes a burst heal regardless of your perspective of situations to use it in. that is a factual statement.
It's a heal on kill. It's not a burst heal, it's essentially a proc that can only proc when you don't need it because it procs when you WIN.
BOL is a burst heal. Do you see the difference between the two?
The only argument you have here is a purely pedantic one. If I relent on this silly argument you will have successful argued that the only possible class burst heal a Nightblade has is a skill that is so unviable that stamblades in 1.2 playing without access to vigor or rally found it a Waste of Space.
Congratulations, you played yourself.
Edit: but yeah, still not a burst heal. But it's ok, now you don't have to argue NB class heals are broken and need buffs!
so not only have you made it clear that your opinions are not only based on your perspective but you also highlight the the problem with biased players, you completely overlook a fact.... no you digress at the obvious facts with situational suggestions.
i will try my best to simplify the obvious fact.
here i go ..... you are thirsty..... you complain about being thirsty all day.... but a bottle of water is next to you and its been there all day..... you can drink this bottle of water to rid yourself of thirst ....... but you 'CHOOSE' (key word) not to drink this water because you "THINK' (key word) coke is better, therefor you will not acknowledge that you have water right there with you....... because you want coke.
moral of the story is..... at least you have it.
1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Or that one gal going on about NB burst heals...nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
No accounting for scrubs. Jules just straight called us all biased for disagreeing with her and playing Nightblade. Great debate tactic
no actually she's probably just tired of showing factual evidence of how night blades as a class have head over heels buffs compared to every other class in the game ..... which is FACT and yet night blade players will come on here deny the fact that they have more buffs and more alternatives than any other class, not only do you make claims that these abilities are not used by "top tier PVP players" (thats what you claim) you also argue that you need more assistance in improving night blades when you not only have a buff in the PTS and now do disease damage.....which will be more potent with new poisons ..... you also have an instant dps ability that hits very hard and has a low cost.... with a super low cost ultimate that stuns at all times with debuffs and damage buffs......if you asked me she has kept it classy.
I really don't understand why the delusion in some of these comments is overshadowing actual FACT... night blades have more buffs and are more efficient in their class abilities. You can not Tell me these statements are not FACT..... you probably won't and divert the question with a false argument that night blades suffer from being competitive in PVP. (classic night blade bias defence)
Plurality of buffs does not equal OP. It's focusing on one aspect of a clas to the exclusion of all others sand presenting it at the whole picture. An example: Templars have no spammable single target skill. That is a true statement. However, it excludes that they have Jabs, one of the most OP monster skills in the game.
You can be technically correct about the things you're saying while leaving out a lot of information that is inconvenient to your argument. This is what Jules is doing, intentionally or not. And she's been extremely dismissive to everyone who tries to point this out. Considering how long we've known each other and the general respect we've expressed for the others' skills over that time, I'm quite taken aback she'd rather dismiss my opinions as biased.
just to clarify on your statement are you STATING.... surprise attack is not the best instant stam dps ability in the game? is that what you are saying ....... just to be clear.
Another good example of what I'm talking about. Is it the best single target instant cast Stam DPS ability ? Probably. But as a Nightblade I'd use Dizzying Swing over SA. Always have. I also think Jabs > SA if we want to make multi class comparisons.
It's ok for classes to have the best of some things. It's not ok present those as evidence of class imbalance without context.
Actually you get more DPS with Jabs & Rapid Strikes, so by definition they'd be the better DPS abilities.
As for other uses, Surprise Attack sure has quite a few that makes it an attractive option. But is it really better than Jabs, or even Rapid Strikes?- Jabs counters NBs really hard by preventing any usage of Cloak. It also drains stamina much quicker than Surprise Attack and is an AoE, meaning it puts better pressure on opponents in 1vX. Also procs Skoria very well.
- Rapid Strikes is clunkier to use & animation cancel than Jabs (yes, it's quite easy to weave medium attacks inbetween) or Surprise Attack, but it deals the most single target DPS. Also, if you use vMSA dual wield weapons it synergizes well with DBOS (Dawnbreaker of Smiting) by boosting the DoT damage of the ultimate significantly. Also procs things like Skoria or Sorc Implosion passive very well.
- Surprise Attack can benefit from Major Empower & synergizes well with Cloak (on the rare occasions when it works), while also applying a debuff worth 8% mitigation on your opponent.
- Wrecking Blow is the ultimate combo skill next patch, providing you with the high burst spike of damage from connecting the skill itself & then applies Major Empower to the follow-up DBOS. A deadly combo for sure.
I'd say all these skills are pretty much even and which one you choose to use depends very much on your playstyle & the aim of your build. The balance here is spot on (for PvP) - and I don't get to say this very often when talking about this game.
so let me just clarify your detailed statement ...... are you suggesting/stating as a night blade player.... you would not pick surprise attack part of your Stamina night blade build in a PVP environment out of them abilities you have brought up in your statement above..... and you honestly stand on that SA is not the most efficient class ability out of the abilities you have suggested/stated.
Wrecking Blow has always been King for Stam DPS with Nightblades. There's a reason they're nerfing it. Wrecking Blow heavy attack combos with an ambush/Crit charge thrown in > SA combos.
Yonkit would probably disagree with me, he loved SA. There is room for debate here for certain. But SA is far from being the undisputed single target King.
They didn't even nerf Wrecking Blow tbh by removing the CC - it's better to Wrecking Blow->DBOS for stun because your opponent has then taken more damage before he can break CC
They just changed how the skill functions - it's now more of a combo piece than a spammable do-it-all.1 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Atleast he didn't claim Reaper's Mark is a burst heal... or that Blur returns magicka.
Reaper's mark is a burst heal. It heals for 60% of your max health.
And blur does not return magicka, true.
Please, no. Stahp. It's ok to be wrong sometimes, it happens to us all. Doubling and tripling down on mistakes does you no favors.
I'm not wrong. It IS a burst heal. Unless 60% of your max health is not bursty enough for you?
It's not an on demand burst heal comparable to BOL, but it is still a burst heal.
This is the height of pedantry. The entire point of a burst heal is that you need it Right Now, otherwise any old heal over time will do. Either it functions as a burst heal or it doesn't. And it demonstratively Does Not.
You will also remember that YOU raised this point in response to me saying that Nightblades lacked good defensive skills and burst heals. Even if I were so generous as to grant you that a "Heal on Kill" skill is a burst heal (it is not), it was at best a willful sidestepping of my argument. Countering "I have no burst heals" with "you have a non functioning and non viable burst heal" is NOT an acceptable answer.
just because the circumstances does not suit your vision of a burst heal doesn't mean it is not a burst heal notice how i identify your statement to something of perspective because thats what your statement translate to... a perspective point of view that is completely situational, it still does change the fact to when i log on and i go on my night blade that ability is still available and yes a burst heal regardless of your perspective of situations to use it in. that is a factual statement.
It's a heal on kill. It's not a burst heal, it's essentially a proc that can only proc when you don't need it because it procs when you WIN.
BOL is a burst heal. Do you see the difference between the two?
The only argument you have here is a purely pedantic one. If I relent on this silly argument you will have successful argued that the only possible class burst heal a Nightblade has is a skill that is so unviable that stamblades in 1.2 playing without access to vigor or rally found it a Waste of Space.
Congratulations, you played yourself.
Edit: but yeah, still not a burst heal. But it's ok, now you don't have to argue NB class heals are broken and need buffs!
so not only have you made it clear that your opinions are not only based on your perspective but you also highlight the the problem with biased players, you completely overlook a fact.... no you digress at the obvious facts with situational suggestions.
i will try my best to simplify the obvious fact.
here i go ..... you are thirsty..... you complain about being thirsty all day.... but a bottle of water is next to you and its been there all day..... you can drink this bottle of water to rid yourself of thirst ....... but you 'CHOOSE' (key word) not to drink this water because you "THINK' (key word) coke is better, therefor you will not acknowledge that you have water right there with you....... because you want coke.
moral of the story is..... at least you have it.
Dude.
I'm dying of thirst. I ask you for water and you give me a cup of sea water. Have you technically given me "water"? Yes! But you've been supremely unhelpful and deep down you probably know it.
There is no bias here. I claimed Nightblades had a lack of class defensive abilities and burst heals, and Jules countered with a skill that cannot function as a burst heal in combat. This is fact. It's a glass of sea water: only a compete pedant would insist that I can drink it because it "technically qualifies as water".Edited by Satiar on May 16, 2016 12:11AMVehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost3 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Or that one gal going on about NB burst heals...nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
No accounting for scrubs. Jules just straight called us all biased for disagreeing with her and playing Nightblade. Great debate tactic
no actually she's probably just tired of showing factual evidence of how night blades as a class have head over heels buffs compared to every other class in the game ..... which is FACT and yet night blade players will come on here deny the fact that they have more buffs and more alternatives than any other class, not only do you make claims that these abilities are not used by "top tier PVP players" (thats what you claim) you also argue that you need more assistance in improving night blades when you not only have a buff in the PTS and now do disease damage.....which will be more potent with new poisons ..... you also have an instant dps ability that hits very hard and has a low cost.... with a super low cost ultimate that stuns at all times with debuffs and damage buffs......if you asked me she has kept it classy.
I really don't understand why the delusion in some of these comments is overshadowing actual FACT... night blades have more buffs and are more efficient in their class abilities. You can not Tell me these statements are not FACT..... you probably won't and divert the question with a false argument that night blades suffer from being competitive in PVP. (classic night blade bias defence)
Plurality of buffs does not equal OP. It's focusing on one aspect of a clas to the exclusion of all others sand presenting it at the whole picture. An example: Templars have no spammable single target skill. That is a true statement. However, it excludes that they have Jabs, one of the most OP monster skills in the game.
You can be technically correct about the things you're saying while leaving out a lot of information that is inconvenient to your argument. This is what Jules is doing, intentionally or not. And she's been extremely dismissive to everyone who tries to point this out. Considering how long we've known each other and the general respect we've expressed for the others' skills over that time, I'm quite taken aback she'd rather dismiss my opinions as biased.
just to clarify on your statement are you STATING.... surprise attack is not the best instant stam dps ability in the game? is that what you are saying ....... just to be clear.
Another good example of what I'm talking about. Is it the best single target instant cast Stam DPS ability ? Probably. But as a Nightblade I'd use Dizzying Swing over SA. Always have. I also think Jabs > SA if we want to make multi class comparisons.
It's ok for classes to have the best of some things. It's not ok present those as evidence of class imbalance without context.
Actually you get more DPS with Jabs & Rapid Strikes, so by definition they'd be the better DPS abilities.
As for other uses, Surprise Attack sure has quite a few that makes it an attractive option. But is it really better than Jabs, or even Rapid Strikes?- Jabs counters NBs really hard by preventing any usage of Cloak. It also drains stamina much quicker than Surprise Attack and is an AoE, meaning it puts better pressure on opponents in 1vX. Also procs Skoria very well.
- Rapid Strikes is clunkier to use & animation cancel than Jabs (yes, it's quite easy to weave medium attacks inbetween) or Surprise Attack, but it deals the most single target DPS. Also, if you use vMSA dual wield weapons it synergizes well with DBOS (Dawnbreaker of Smiting) by boosting the DoT damage of the ultimate significantly. Also procs things like Skoria or Sorc Implosion passive very well.
- Surprise Attack can benefit from Major Empower & synergizes well with Cloak (on the rare occasions when it works), while also applying a debuff worth 8% mitigation on your opponent.
- Wrecking Blow is the ultimate combo skill next patch, providing you with the high burst spike of damage from connecting the skill itself & then applies Major Empower to the follow-up DBOS. A deadly combo for sure.
I'd say all these skills are pretty much even and which one you choose to use depends very much on your playstyle & the aim of your build. The balance here is spot on (for PvP) - and I don't get to say this very often when talking about this game.
so let me just clarify your detailed statement ...... are you suggesting/stating as a night blade player.... you would not pick surprise attack part of your Stamina night blade build in a PVP environment out of them abilities you have brought up in your statement above..... and you honestly stand on that SA is not the most efficient class ability out of the abilities you have suggested/stated.
Wrecking Blow has always been King for Stam DPS with Nightblades. There's a reason they're nerfing it. Wrecking Blow heavy attack combos with an ambush/Crit charge thrown in > SA combos.
Yonkit would probably disagree with me, he loved SA. There is room for debate here for certain. But SA is far from being the undisputed single target King.
They didn't even nerf Wrecking Blow tbh by removing the CC - it's better to Wrecking Blow->DBOS for stun because your opponent has then taken more damage before he can break CC
They just changed how the skill functions - it's now more of a combo piece than a spammable do-it-all.
True but it was always better as a combo. WB spam can be countered because it's predictable.Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost0 -
genjutsu_kami✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Atleast he didn't claim Reaper's Mark is a burst heal... or that Blur returns magicka.
Reaper's mark is a burst heal. It heals for 60% of your max health.
And blur does not return magicka, true.
Please, no. Stahp. It's ok to be wrong sometimes, it happens to us all. Doubling and tripling down on mistakes does you no favors.
I'm not wrong. It IS a burst heal. Unless 60% of your max health is not bursty enough for you?
It's not an on demand burst heal comparable to BOL, but it is still a burst heal.
This is the height of pedantry. The entire point of a burst heal is that you need it Right Now, otherwise any old heal over time will do. Either it functions as a burst heal or it doesn't. And it demonstratively Does Not.
You will also remember that YOU raised this point in response to me saying that Nightblades lacked good defensive skills and burst heals. Even if I were so generous as to grant you that a "Heal on Kill" skill is a burst heal (it is not), it was at best a willful sidestepping of my argument. Countering "I have no burst heals" with "you have a non functioning and non viable burst heal" is NOT an acceptable answer.
just because the circumstances does not suit your vision of a burst heal doesn't mean it is not a burst heal notice how i identify your statement to something of perspective because thats what your statement translate to... a perspective point of view that is completely situational, it still does change the fact to when i log on and i go on my night blade that ability is still available and yes a burst heal regardless of your perspective of situations to use it in. that is a factual statement.
It's a heal on kill. It's not a burst heal, it's essentially a proc that can only proc when you don't need it because it procs when you WIN.
BOL is a burst heal. Do you see the difference between the two?
The only argument you have here is a purely pedantic one. If I relent on this silly argument you will have successful argued that the only possible class burst heal a Nightblade has is a skill that is so unviable that stamblades in 1.2 playing without access to vigor or rally found it a Waste of Space.
Congratulations, you played yourself.
Edit: but yeah, still not a burst heal. But it's ok, now you don't have to argue NB class heals are broken and need buffs!
so not only have you made it clear that your opinions are not only based on your perspective but you also highlight the the problem with biased players, you completely overlook a fact.... no you digress at the obvious facts with situational suggestions.
i will try my best to simplify the obvious fact.
here i go ..... you are thirsty..... you complain about being thirsty all day.... but a bottle of water is next to you and its been there all day..... you can drink this bottle of water to rid yourself of thirst ....... but you 'CHOOSE' (key word) not to drink this water because you "THINK' (key word) coke is better, therefor you will not acknowledge that you have water right there with you....... because you want coke.
moral of the story is..... at least you have it.
Dude.
I'm dying of thirst. I ask you for water and you give me a cup of sea water. Have you technically given me "water"? Yes! But you've been supremely unhelpful and deep down you probably know it.
There is no bias here. I claimed Nightblades had a lack of class defensive abilities and burst heals, and Jules countered with a skill that cannot function as a burst heal in combat. This is fact. It's a glass of sea water: only a compete pedant would insist that I can drink it because it "technically qualifies as water".
just to let you know salt water can be purified.... to clean water. which would make it fresh water. but wow you know what you need salt water to then purify it to fresh water..... hmmm wait you have salt water right.... yes so that means..... wow you can purify it and make fresh water ..... thats amazing. (the fact still stands you have something that you can improve).
1 -
holosoul✭✭✭✭They didn't even nerf Wrecking Blow tbh by removing the CC - it's better to Wrecking Blow->DBOS for stun because your opponent has then taken more damage before he can break CC
They just changed how the skill functions - it's now more of a combo piece than a spammable do-it-all.
You didn't realize this was a grievous nerf?
Wow.
Without the knockdown you won't be killing magicka builds as easily.
I know this, because I am a magicka build. (edit: because I know exactly what kills me, to be clear)
You got nerfed.
I think we'll see a rise in the use of dizzying, because the knockdown is better than the empower in PVP. The knockdown is what makes your combo possible since it removes at least 2 GCDs (or whatever) from your opponent and immobilizes them during that time frame.
I bet you think sorcs got a shield buff also, are you one of "those" ones?Edited by holosoul on May 16, 2016 12:19AM0 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Atleast he didn't claim Reaper's Mark is a burst heal... or that Blur returns magicka.
Reaper's mark is a burst heal. It heals for 60% of your max health.
And blur does not return magicka, true.
Please, no. Stahp. It's ok to be wrong sometimes, it happens to us all. Doubling and tripling down on mistakes does you no favors.
I'm not wrong. It IS a burst heal. Unless 60% of your max health is not bursty enough for you?
It's not an on demand burst heal comparable to BOL, but it is still a burst heal.
This is the height of pedantry. The entire point of a burst heal is that you need it Right Now, otherwise any old heal over time will do. Either it functions as a burst heal or it doesn't. And it demonstratively Does Not.
You will also remember that YOU raised this point in response to me saying that Nightblades lacked good defensive skills and burst heals. Even if I were so generous as to grant you that a "Heal on Kill" skill is a burst heal (it is not), it was at best a willful sidestepping of my argument. Countering "I have no burst heals" with "you have a non functioning and non viable burst heal" is NOT an acceptable answer.
just because the circumstances does not suit your vision of a burst heal doesn't mean it is not a burst heal notice how i identify your statement to something of perspective because thats what your statement translate to... a perspective point of view that is completely situational, it still does change the fact to when i log on and i go on my night blade that ability is still available and yes a burst heal regardless of your perspective of situations to use it in. that is a factual statement.
It's a heal on kill. It's not a burst heal, it's essentially a proc that can only proc when you don't need it because it procs when you WIN.
BOL is a burst heal. Do you see the difference between the two?
The only argument you have here is a purely pedantic one. If I relent on this silly argument you will have successful argued that the only possible class burst heal a Nightblade has is a skill that is so unviable that stamblades in 1.2 playing without access to vigor or rally found it a Waste of Space.
Congratulations, you played yourself.
Edit: but yeah, still not a burst heal. But it's ok, now you don't have to argue NB class heals are broken and need buffs!
so not only have you made it clear that your opinions are not only based on your perspective but you also highlight the the problem with biased players, you completely overlook a fact.... no you digress at the obvious facts with situational suggestions.
i will try my best to simplify the obvious fact.
here i go ..... you are thirsty..... you complain about being thirsty all day.... but a bottle of water is next to you and its been there all day..... you can drink this bottle of water to rid yourself of thirst ....... but you 'CHOOSE' (key word) not to drink this water because you "THINK' (key word) coke is better, therefor you will not acknowledge that you have water right there with you....... because you want coke.
moral of the story is..... at least you have it.
Dude.
I'm dying of thirst. I ask you for water and you give me a cup of sea water. Have you technically given me "water"? Yes! But you've been supremely unhelpful and deep down you probably know it.
There is no bias here. I claimed Nightblades had a lack of class defensive abilities and burst heals, and Jules countered with a skill that cannot function as a burst heal in combat. This is fact. It's a glass of sea water: only a compete pedant would insist that I can drink it because it "technically qualifies as water".
just to let you know salt water can be purified.... to clean water. which would make it fresh water. but wow you know what you need salt water to then purify it to fresh water..... hmmm wait you have salt water right.... yes so that means..... wow you can purify it and make fresh water ..... thats amazing. (the fact still stands you have something that you can improve).
If ZoS ever makes reapers Mark viable, I'm happy. Until than, useless skill is useless. I played Nightblade when we had no heals at all and it was STILL useless. I invite you to 1v1 me with your "burst heal" and show me how it works tho.
Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭They didn't even nerf Wrecking Blow tbh by removing the CC - it's better to Wrecking Blow->DBOS for stun because your opponent has then taken more damage before he can break CC
They just changed how the skill functions - it's now more of a combo piece than a spammable do-it-all.
You didn't realize this was a grievous nerf?
Wow.
Without the knockdown you won't be killing magicka builds as easily.
I know this, because I am a magicka build. (edit: because I know exactly what kills me, to be clear)
You got nerfed.
I think we'll see a rise in the use of dizzying, because the knockdown is better than the empower in PVP. The knockdown is what makes your combo possible since it removes at least 2 GCDs (or whatever) from your opponent and immobilizes them during that time frame.
I bet you think sorcs got a shield buff also, are you one of "those" ones?
Wrecking Blow->Leap/DBOS (CC)i]CC Break[/i *another skill hits*
is better than
Wrecking Blow (CC)i]CC Break[/i->Leap/DBOS *heals up/blocks* *another skill hits*
It's really simple - the lower health the target is when he gets CC'ed, the better your chances of killing that target.
Your health after Wrecking Blow and DBOS is significantly lower than just after Wrecking Blow.
I hope this makes sense.
The skill got nerfed in the way that you need to slot another CC (or go for Dizzying Swing) for when you're simply CC'ing to drain someone's stamina - but as a combo piece it got buffed significantly.Edited by DDuke on May 16, 2016 12:31AM1 -
manny254✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Publius_Scipio wrote: »Again all this back and forth about skills, buffs, and a whole host of theoretical crap! In the real world, you make your superstar NB build, put it in the hand of the best player you know, and send it against Mojican or any similar spec'd templar for that matter. Then lets all discuss the meaning of "overpowered".
And don't take it from me. Let that red beady-eyed elf Mojican come into this thread and explain. I know you're out there Mojican! I know you're there watching, reading, listening in! Stop being coy! You want a piece of me!!!! COME IN HERE AND GET ME!
In terms of stam builds I would have to agree. I have played everything except sorc, and this is what I think.
The current hierarchy of overall PVP stam builds is:
1.Templar
2.DK
3.NB
4.Some silly class Wrobel forgot about for TG.
Although a redguard stam DK will be the strongest possible dueling build (because of godly sustain), and DK is the best at zerging people (High burst, and good defenses). Personally though purify puts templar ahead of DK for solo play. It is the best counter to RD, and it prevents you from being healing debuffed. As it stands purify is one of the best defensive PVP skills in the game. Next update it will cost more, but it will last longer and snare.
What currently puts Templar and DK on top is major mending. Major mending is overpowered with vigor and rally. Not much else to say really. I have no idea how they should fix this, but I feel it over performs.
Personally I think next patch DK will be retake the overall #1 spot, and NB will be #2. I mostly edge templar down because incap will over perform, and the WB nerf actually hit templar the most. This is simply because templar lacks burst options, and DK will still have leap. It is to early to definitively say though.
To answer the question "Is NB op?"
I think NB is pretty balanced for the TG patch. The physical resist CP and cloak dot change went a long way for balance. Next patch I think incap stike will be too strong, but not simply because of the damage. Incap will have too many negative effects for one global cool down. Personally they just need to revert or remove the stun.
As the stealth class NB good at ganking, but isn't that the point of a stealth class? The mechanics for high stealth damage is available to all classes. The imbalance here lies in the game mechanics, and not the class.- Mojican10 -
genjutsu_kami✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Atleast he didn't claim Reaper's Mark is a burst heal... or that Blur returns magicka.
Reaper's mark is a burst heal. It heals for 60% of your max health.
And blur does not return magicka, true.
Please, no. Stahp. It's ok to be wrong sometimes, it happens to us all. Doubling and tripling down on mistakes does you no favors.
I'm not wrong. It IS a burst heal. Unless 60% of your max health is not bursty enough for you?
It's not an on demand burst heal comparable to BOL, but it is still a burst heal.
This is the height of pedantry. The entire point of a burst heal is that you need it Right Now, otherwise any old heal over time will do. Either it functions as a burst heal or it doesn't. And it demonstratively Does Not.
You will also remember that YOU raised this point in response to me saying that Nightblades lacked good defensive skills and burst heals. Even if I were so generous as to grant you that a "Heal on Kill" skill is a burst heal (it is not), it was at best a willful sidestepping of my argument. Countering "I have no burst heals" with "you have a non functioning and non viable burst heal" is NOT an acceptable answer.
just because the circumstances does not suit your vision of a burst heal doesn't mean it is not a burst heal notice how i identify your statement to something of perspective because thats what your statement translate to... a perspective point of view that is completely situational, it still does change the fact to when i log on and i go on my night blade that ability is still available and yes a burst heal regardless of your perspective of situations to use it in. that is a factual statement.
It's a heal on kill. It's not a burst heal, it's essentially a proc that can only proc when you don't need it because it procs when you WIN.
BOL is a burst heal. Do you see the difference between the two?
The only argument you have here is a purely pedantic one. If I relent on this silly argument you will have successful argued that the only possible class burst heal a Nightblade has is a skill that is so unviable that stamblades in 1.2 playing without access to vigor or rally found it a Waste of Space.
Congratulations, you played yourself.
Edit: but yeah, still not a burst heal. But it's ok, now you don't have to argue NB class heals are broken and need buffs!
so not only have you made it clear that your opinions are not only based on your perspective but you also highlight the the problem with biased players, you completely overlook a fact.... no you digress at the obvious facts with situational suggestions.
i will try my best to simplify the obvious fact.
here i go ..... you are thirsty..... you complain about being thirsty all day.... but a bottle of water is next to you and its been there all day..... you can drink this bottle of water to rid yourself of thirst ....... but you 'CHOOSE' (key word) not to drink this water because you "THINK' (key word) coke is better, therefor you will not acknowledge that you have water right there with you....... because you want coke.
moral of the story is..... at least you have it.
Dude.
I'm dying of thirst. I ask you for water and you give me a cup of sea water. Have you technically given me "water"? Yes! But you've been supremely unhelpful and deep down you probably know it.
There is no bias here. I claimed Nightblades had a lack of class defensive abilities and burst heals, and Jules countered with a skill that cannot function as a burst heal in combat. This is fact. It's a glass of sea water: only a compete pedant would insist that I can drink it because it "technically qualifies as water".
just to let you know salt water can be purified.... to clean water. which would make it fresh water. but wow you know what you need salt water to then purify it to fresh water..... hmmm wait you have salt water right.... yes so that means..... wow you can purify it and make fresh water ..... thats amazing. (the fact still stands you have something that you can improve).
If ZoS ever makes reapers Mark viable, I'm happy. Until than, useless skill is useless. I played Nightblade when we had no heals at all and it was STILL useless. I invite you to 1v1 me with your "burst heal" and show me how it works tho.
(loses argument results to "one v one me bro"......)
so you agree you have something. wether it be useless (in your opinion) or useful you finally agree that its is there at your disposal. and yes if ZOS wanted to they could improve it. but what if your a class that doesn't have it.... you can not adapt something that does not exist. conclusion to the debate. wether you perceive an ability as useful or useless it still does not change the fact that you have something that can be used, changed, adapted, improved.
while other classes do not have as much. (and now night blades want more cause the toys they got for xmas was not enough to satisfy there already noticeable, factual collection of advantages, now tell me why night blades suffer from being competitive again....? oh cause its hard to beat stam DKs.... excuse me while i go laugh out loud somewhere)1 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Atleast he didn't claim Reaper's Mark is a burst heal... or that Blur returns magicka.
Reaper's mark is a burst heal. It heals for 60% of your max health.
And blur does not return magicka, true.
Please, no. Stahp. It's ok to be wrong sometimes, it happens to us all. Doubling and tripling down on mistakes does you no favors.
I'm not wrong. It IS a burst heal. Unless 60% of your max health is not bursty enough for you?
It's not an on demand burst heal comparable to BOL, but it is still a burst heal.
This is the height of pedantry. The entire point of a burst heal is that you need it Right Now, otherwise any old heal over time will do. Either it functions as a burst heal or it doesn't. And it demonstratively Does Not.
You will also remember that YOU raised this point in response to me saying that Nightblades lacked good defensive skills and burst heals. Even if I were so generous as to grant you that a "Heal on Kill" skill is a burst heal (it is not), it was at best a willful sidestepping of my argument. Countering "I have no burst heals" with "you have a non functioning and non viable burst heal" is NOT an acceptable answer.
just because the circumstances does not suit your vision of a burst heal doesn't mean it is not a burst heal notice how i identify your statement to something of perspective because thats what your statement translate to... a perspective point of view that is completely situational, it still does change the fact to when i log on and i go on my night blade that ability is still available and yes a burst heal regardless of your perspective of situations to use it in. that is a factual statement.
It's a heal on kill. It's not a burst heal, it's essentially a proc that can only proc when you don't need it because it procs when you WIN.
BOL is a burst heal. Do you see the difference between the two?
The only argument you have here is a purely pedantic one. If I relent on this silly argument you will have successful argued that the only possible class burst heal a Nightblade has is a skill that is so unviable that stamblades in 1.2 playing without access to vigor or rally found it a Waste of Space.
Congratulations, you played yourself.
Edit: but yeah, still not a burst heal. But it's ok, now you don't have to argue NB class heals are broken and need buffs!
so not only have you made it clear that your opinions are not only based on your perspective but you also highlight the the problem with biased players, you completely overlook a fact.... no you digress at the obvious facts with situational suggestions.
i will try my best to simplify the obvious fact.
here i go ..... you are thirsty..... you complain about being thirsty all day.... but a bottle of water is next to you and its been there all day..... you can drink this bottle of water to rid yourself of thirst ....... but you 'CHOOSE' (key word) not to drink this water because you "THINK' (key word) coke is better, therefor you will not acknowledge that you have water right there with you....... because you want coke.
moral of the story is..... at least you have it.
Dude.
I'm dying of thirst. I ask you for water and you give me a cup of sea water. Have you technically given me "water"? Yes! But you've been supremely unhelpful and deep down you probably know it.
There is no bias here. I claimed Nightblades had a lack of class defensive abilities and burst heals, and Jules countered with a skill that cannot function as a burst heal in combat. This is fact. It's a glass of sea water: only a compete pedant would insist that I can drink it because it "technically qualifies as water".
just to let you know salt water can be purified.... to clean water. which would make it fresh water. but wow you know what you need salt water to then purify it to fresh water..... hmmm wait you have salt water right.... yes so that means..... wow you can purify it and make fresh water ..... thats amazing. (the fact still stands you have something that you can improve).
If ZoS ever makes reapers Mark viable, I'm happy. Until than, useless skill is useless. I played Nightblade when we had no heals at all and it was STILL useless. I invite you to 1v1 me with your "burst heal" and show me how it works tho.
(loses argument results to "one v one me bro"......)
so you agree you have something. wether it be useless (in your opinion) or useful you finally agree that its is there at your disposal. and yes if ZOS wanted to they could improve it. but what if your a class that doesn't have it.... you can not adapt something that does not exist. conclusion to the debate. wether you perceive an ability as useful or useless it still does not change the fact that you have something that can be used, changed, adapted, improved.
while other classes do not have as much. (and now night blades want more cause the toys they got for xmas was not enough to satisfy there already noticeable, factual collection of advantages, now tell me why night blades suffer from being competitive again....? oh cause its hard to beat stam DKs.... excuse me while i go laugh out loud somewhere)
I've lost no arguments. I have merely invited you to prove the theory. Show me the value of this "burst heal" that I have overlooked.
And mate, I don't even know what the rest of your argument even is. It makes no sense. Having access to a skill that doesn't function in a viable way is MEANINGLESS.Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost4 -
genjutsu_kami✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Atleast he didn't claim Reaper's Mark is a burst heal... or that Blur returns magicka.
Reaper's mark is a burst heal. It heals for 60% of your max health.
And blur does not return magicka, true.
Please, no. Stahp. It's ok to be wrong sometimes, it happens to us all. Doubling and tripling down on mistakes does you no favors.
I'm not wrong. It IS a burst heal. Unless 60% of your max health is not bursty enough for you?
It's not an on demand burst heal comparable to BOL, but it is still a burst heal.
This is the height of pedantry. The entire point of a burst heal is that you need it Right Now, otherwise any old heal over time will do. Either it functions as a burst heal or it doesn't. And it demonstratively Does Not.
You will also remember that YOU raised this point in response to me saying that Nightblades lacked good defensive skills and burst heals. Even if I were so generous as to grant you that a "Heal on Kill" skill is a burst heal (it is not), it was at best a willful sidestepping of my argument. Countering "I have no burst heals" with "you have a non functioning and non viable burst heal" is NOT an acceptable answer.
just because the circumstances does not suit your vision of a burst heal doesn't mean it is not a burst heal notice how i identify your statement to something of perspective because thats what your statement translate to... a perspective point of view that is completely situational, it still does change the fact to when i log on and i go on my night blade that ability is still available and yes a burst heal regardless of your perspective of situations to use it in. that is a factual statement.
It's a heal on kill. It's not a burst heal, it's essentially a proc that can only proc when you don't need it because it procs when you WIN.
BOL is a burst heal. Do you see the difference between the two?
The only argument you have here is a purely pedantic one. If I relent on this silly argument you will have successful argued that the only possible class burst heal a Nightblade has is a skill that is so unviable that stamblades in 1.2 playing without access to vigor or rally found it a Waste of Space.
Congratulations, you played yourself.
Edit: but yeah, still not a burst heal. But it's ok, now you don't have to argue NB class heals are broken and need buffs!
so not only have you made it clear that your opinions are not only based on your perspective but you also highlight the the problem with biased players, you completely overlook a fact.... no you digress at the obvious facts with situational suggestions.
i will try my best to simplify the obvious fact.
here i go ..... you are thirsty..... you complain about being thirsty all day.... but a bottle of water is next to you and its been there all day..... you can drink this bottle of water to rid yourself of thirst ....... but you 'CHOOSE' (key word) not to drink this water because you "THINK' (key word) coke is better, therefor you will not acknowledge that you have water right there with you....... because you want coke.
moral of the story is..... at least you have it.
Dude.
I'm dying of thirst. I ask you for water and you give me a cup of sea water. Have you technically given me "water"? Yes! But you've been supremely unhelpful and deep down you probably know it.
There is no bias here. I claimed Nightblades had a lack of class defensive abilities and burst heals, and Jules countered with a skill that cannot function as a burst heal in combat. This is fact. It's a glass of sea water: only a compete pedant would insist that I can drink it because it "technically qualifies as water".
just to let you know salt water can be purified.... to clean water. which would make it fresh water. but wow you know what you need salt water to then purify it to fresh water..... hmmm wait you have salt water right.... yes so that means..... wow you can purify it and make fresh water ..... thats amazing. (the fact still stands you have something that you can improve).
If ZoS ever makes reapers Mark viable, I'm happy. Until than, useless skill is useless. I played Nightblade when we had no heals at all and it was STILL useless. I invite you to 1v1 me with your "burst heal" and show me how it works tho.
(loses argument results to "one v one me bro"......)
so you agree you have something. wether it be useless (in your opinion) or useful you finally agree that its is there at your disposal. and yes if ZOS wanted to they could improve it. but what if your a class that doesn't have it.... you can not adapt something that does not exist. conclusion to the debate. wether you perceive an ability as useful or useless it still does not change the fact that you have something that can be used, changed, adapted, improved.
while other classes do not have as much. (and now night blades want more cause the toys they got for xmas was not enough to satisfy there already noticeable, factual collection of advantages, now tell me why night blades suffer from being competitive again....? oh cause its hard to beat stam DKs.... excuse me while i go laugh out loud somewhere)
I've lost no arguments. I have merely invited you to prove the theory. Show me the value of this "burst heal" that I have overlooked.
And mate, I don't even know what the rest of your argument even is. It makes no sense. Having access to a skill that doesn't function in a viable way is MEANINGLESS.
yet again i receive a delusional broken record type of statement....."just because XY and Z it doesn't make it VIABLE' but you still have it to comment on its lack of viability. your not getting this so ill slow it down for you and add a few more dots to break up the words ever so slightly. you.......have......more.....passive.... boost... abilities......than.....other......classes.......
i really hope that helps you understand better. look i just would like to point out that night blades are in a great position better than most. they do not suffer from being competitive and they do not need boost they actually over perform significantly more than they should. and they have more versatility on paper. those are facts. no lies here just hard cold facts. i know the truth hurts. not to mention you have received buffs next patch..... have you noticed that....the patch notes are on the forums you can find them. just to clarify my argument so its crystal clear for you. night blades are overachieving in their damage potential and their utility of certain abilities climb higher than other class abilities and they don't suffer in PVE (stam night blades can complete vet malestrom arena) or PVP in any way. so concentration should be on adapting night blades generally to be balanced with other classes. (toned down)
simple facts simple fair judgment.1 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Atleast he didn't claim Reaper's Mark is a burst heal... or that Blur returns magicka.
Reaper's mark is a burst heal. It heals for 60% of your max health.
And blur does not return magicka, true.
Please, no. Stahp. It's ok to be wrong sometimes, it happens to us all. Doubling and tripling down on mistakes does you no favors.
I'm not wrong. It IS a burst heal. Unless 60% of your max health is not bursty enough for you?
It's not an on demand burst heal comparable to BOL, but it is still a burst heal.
This is the height of pedantry. The entire point of a burst heal is that you need it Right Now, otherwise any old heal over time will do. Either it functions as a burst heal or it doesn't. And it demonstratively Does Not.
You will also remember that YOU raised this point in response to me saying that Nightblades lacked good defensive skills and burst heals. Even if I were so generous as to grant you that a "Heal on Kill" skill is a burst heal (it is not), it was at best a willful sidestepping of my argument. Countering "I have no burst heals" with "you have a non functioning and non viable burst heal" is NOT an acceptable answer.
just because the circumstances does not suit your vision of a burst heal doesn't mean it is not a burst heal notice how i identify your statement to something of perspective because thats what your statement translate to... a perspective point of view that is completely situational, it still does change the fact to when i log on and i go on my night blade that ability is still available and yes a burst heal regardless of your perspective of situations to use it in. that is a factual statement.
It's a heal on kill. It's not a burst heal, it's essentially a proc that can only proc when you don't need it because it procs when you WIN.
BOL is a burst heal. Do you see the difference between the two?
The only argument you have here is a purely pedantic one. If I relent on this silly argument you will have successful argued that the only possible class burst heal a Nightblade has is a skill that is so unviable that stamblades in 1.2 playing without access to vigor or rally found it a Waste of Space.
Congratulations, you played yourself.
Edit: but yeah, still not a burst heal. But it's ok, now you don't have to argue NB class heals are broken and need buffs!
so not only have you made it clear that your opinions are not only based on your perspective but you also highlight the the problem with biased players, you completely overlook a fact.... no you digress at the obvious facts with situational suggestions.
i will try my best to simplify the obvious fact.
here i go ..... you are thirsty..... you complain about being thirsty all day.... but a bottle of water is next to you and its been there all day..... you can drink this bottle of water to rid yourself of thirst ....... but you 'CHOOSE' (key word) not to drink this water because you "THINK' (key word) coke is better, therefor you will not acknowledge that you have water right there with you....... because you want coke.
moral of the story is..... at least you have it.
Dude.
I'm dying of thirst. I ask you for water and you give me a cup of sea water. Have you technically given me "water"? Yes! But you've been supremely unhelpful and deep down you probably know it.
There is no bias here. I claimed Nightblades had a lack of class defensive abilities and burst heals, and Jules countered with a skill that cannot function as a burst heal in combat. This is fact. It's a glass of sea water: only a compete pedant would insist that I can drink it because it "technically qualifies as water".
just to let you know salt water can be purified.... to clean water. which would make it fresh water. but wow you know what you need salt water to then purify it to fresh water..... hmmm wait you have salt water right.... yes so that means..... wow you can purify it and make fresh water ..... thats amazing. (the fact still stands you have something that you can improve).
If ZoS ever makes reapers Mark viable, I'm happy. Until than, useless skill is useless. I played Nightblade when we had no heals at all and it was STILL useless. I invite you to 1v1 me with your "burst heal" and show me how it works tho.
(loses argument results to "one v one me bro"......)
so you agree you have something. wether it be useless (in your opinion) or useful you finally agree that its is there at your disposal. and yes if ZOS wanted to they could improve it. but what if your a class that doesn't have it.... you can not adapt something that does not exist. conclusion to the debate. wether you perceive an ability as useful or useless it still does not change the fact that you have something that can be used, changed, adapted, improved.
while other classes do not have as much. (and now night blades want more cause the toys they got for xmas was not enough to satisfy there already noticeable, factual collection of advantages, now tell me why night blades suffer from being competitive again....? oh cause its hard to beat stam DKs.... excuse me while i go laugh out loud somewhere)
I've lost no arguments. I have merely invited you to prove the theory. Show me the value of this "burst heal" that I have overlooked.
And mate, I don't even know what the rest of your argument even is. It makes no sense. Having access to a skill that doesn't function in a viable way is MEANINGLESS.
yet again i receive a delusional broken record type of statement....."just because XY and Z it doesn't make it VIABLE' but you still have it to comment on its lack of viability. your not getting this so ill slow it down for you and add a few more dots to break up the words ever so slightly. you.......have......more.....passive.... boost... abilities......than.....other......classes.......
i really hope that helps you understand better. look i just would like to point out that night blades are in a great position better than most. they do not suffer from being competitive and they do not need boost they actually over perform significantly more than they should. and they have more versatility on paper. those are facts. no lies here just hard cold facts. i know the truth hurts. not to mention you have received buffs next patch..... have you noticed that....the patch notes are on the forums you can find them. just to clarify my argument so its crystal clear for you. night blades are overachieving in their damage potential and their utility of certain abilities climb higher than other class abilities and they don't suffer in PVE (stam night blades can complete vet malestrom arena) or PVP in any way. so concentration should be on adapting night blades generally to be balanced with other classes. (toned down)
simple facts simple fair judgment.
There are two separate arguments here:
1. Nightblades have a functioning class burst heal
2. Nightblades are OP
Two very different arguments that intersect but do not really inform the other. Nightblades are great. They just happen to lack good defensive abilities and a burst heal, which tempers thier effectiveness vs classes that have one, the other or a combination of both.
Editing to add: quality > quantity. We have many passive boosts that mean nothing when compared to larger buffs we lack (like major mending). It's like asking if a nickel or a dime is worth more: the nickel is bigger but the dime has more value.Edited by Satiar on May 16, 2016 1:08AMVehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost2 -
genjutsu_kami✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Atleast he didn't claim Reaper's Mark is a burst heal... or that Blur returns magicka.
Reaper's mark is a burst heal. It heals for 60% of your max health.
And blur does not return magicka, true.
Please, no. Stahp. It's ok to be wrong sometimes, it happens to us all. Doubling and tripling down on mistakes does you no favors.
I'm not wrong. It IS a burst heal. Unless 60% of your max health is not bursty enough for you?
It's not an on demand burst heal comparable to BOL, but it is still a burst heal.
This is the height of pedantry. The entire point of a burst heal is that you need it Right Now, otherwise any old heal over time will do. Either it functions as a burst heal or it doesn't. And it demonstratively Does Not.
You will also remember that YOU raised this point in response to me saying that Nightblades lacked good defensive skills and burst heals. Even if I were so generous as to grant you that a "Heal on Kill" skill is a burst heal (it is not), it was at best a willful sidestepping of my argument. Countering "I have no burst heals" with "you have a non functioning and non viable burst heal" is NOT an acceptable answer.
just because the circumstances does not suit your vision of a burst heal doesn't mean it is not a burst heal notice how i identify your statement to something of perspective because thats what your statement translate to... a perspective point of view that is completely situational, it still does change the fact to when i log on and i go on my night blade that ability is still available and yes a burst heal regardless of your perspective of situations to use it in. that is a factual statement.
It's a heal on kill. It's not a burst heal, it's essentially a proc that can only proc when you don't need it because it procs when you WIN.
BOL is a burst heal. Do you see the difference between the two?
The only argument you have here is a purely pedantic one. If I relent on this silly argument you will have successful argued that the only possible class burst heal a Nightblade has is a skill that is so unviable that stamblades in 1.2 playing without access to vigor or rally found it a Waste of Space.
Congratulations, you played yourself.
Edit: but yeah, still not a burst heal. But it's ok, now you don't have to argue NB class heals are broken and need buffs!
so not only have you made it clear that your opinions are not only based on your perspective but you also highlight the the problem with biased players, you completely overlook a fact.... no you digress at the obvious facts with situational suggestions.
i will try my best to simplify the obvious fact.
here i go ..... you are thirsty..... you complain about being thirsty all day.... but a bottle of water is next to you and its been there all day..... you can drink this bottle of water to rid yourself of thirst ....... but you 'CHOOSE' (key word) not to drink this water because you "THINK' (key word) coke is better, therefor you will not acknowledge that you have water right there with you....... because you want coke.
moral of the story is..... at least you have it.
Dude.
I'm dying of thirst. I ask you for water and you give me a cup of sea water. Have you technically given me "water"? Yes! But you've been supremely unhelpful and deep down you probably know it.
There is no bias here. I claimed Nightblades had a lack of class defensive abilities and burst heals, and Jules countered with a skill that cannot function as a burst heal in combat. This is fact. It's a glass of sea water: only a compete pedant would insist that I can drink it because it "technically qualifies as water".
just to let you know salt water can be purified.... to clean water. which would make it fresh water. but wow you know what you need salt water to then purify it to fresh water..... hmmm wait you have salt water right.... yes so that means..... wow you can purify it and make fresh water ..... thats amazing. (the fact still stands you have something that you can improve).
If ZoS ever makes reapers Mark viable, I'm happy. Until than, useless skill is useless. I played Nightblade when we had no heals at all and it was STILL useless. I invite you to 1v1 me with your "burst heal" and show me how it works tho.
(loses argument results to "one v one me bro"......)
so you agree you have something. wether it be useless (in your opinion) or useful you finally agree that its is there at your disposal. and yes if ZOS wanted to they could improve it. but what if your a class that doesn't have it.... you can not adapt something that does not exist. conclusion to the debate. wether you perceive an ability as useful or useless it still does not change the fact that you have something that can be used, changed, adapted, improved.
while other classes do not have as much. (and now night blades want more cause the toys they got for xmas was not enough to satisfy there already noticeable, factual collection of advantages, now tell me why night blades suffer from being competitive again....? oh cause its hard to beat stam DKs.... excuse me while i go laugh out loud somewhere)
I've lost no arguments. I have merely invited you to prove the theory. Show me the value of this "burst heal" that I have overlooked.
And mate, I don't even know what the rest of your argument even is. It makes no sense. Having access to a skill that doesn't function in a viable way is MEANINGLESS.
yet again i receive a delusional broken record type of statement....."just because XY and Z it doesn't make it VIABLE' but you still have it to comment on its lack of viability. your not getting this so ill slow it down for you and add a few more dots to break up the words ever so slightly. you.......have......more.....passive.... boost... abilities......than.....other......classes.......
i really hope that helps you understand better. look i just would like to point out that night blades are in a great position better than most. they do not suffer from being competitive and they do not need boost they actually over perform significantly more than they should. and they have more versatility on paper. those are facts. no lies here just hard cold facts. i know the truth hurts. not to mention you have received buffs next patch..... have you noticed that....the patch notes are on the forums you can find them. just to clarify my argument so its crystal clear for you. night blades are overachieving in their damage potential and their utility of certain abilities climb higher than other class abilities and they don't suffer in PVE (stam night blades can complete vet malestrom arena) or PVP in any way. so concentration should be on adapting night blades generally to be balanced with other classes. (toned down)
simple facts simple fair judgment.
There are two separate arguments here:
1. Nightblades have a functioning class burst heal
2. Nightblades are OP
Two very different arguments that intersect but do not really inform the other. Nightblades are great. They just happen to lack good defensive abilities and a burst heal, which tempers thier effectiveness vs classes that have one, the other or a combination of both.
thank you for agreeing to the truth.
they are great.... i would of preferred over performing but were making progress.
wether they are effective because of the lack of defence abilities is questionable..... but the positive here is that the silver lining is we agree they are great and suffer not, not to mention are buffed even more.
concentrations should be on bringing them to balance. and yes defence capabilities also adjusted. one thing is clear though they don't need extra than they already have.
(the chief was never the bad guy in oliver twist.... but oliver himself for being greedy and asking for more when others have none at all)1 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Atleast he didn't claim Reaper's Mark is a burst heal... or that Blur returns magicka.
Reaper's mark is a burst heal. It heals for 60% of your max health.
And blur does not return magicka, true.
Please, no. Stahp. It's ok to be wrong sometimes, it happens to us all. Doubling and tripling down on mistakes does you no favors.
I'm not wrong. It IS a burst heal. Unless 60% of your max health is not bursty enough for you?
It's not an on demand burst heal comparable to BOL, but it is still a burst heal.
This is the height of pedantry. The entire point of a burst heal is that you need it Right Now, otherwise any old heal over time will do. Either it functions as a burst heal or it doesn't. And it demonstratively Does Not.
You will also remember that YOU raised this point in response to me saying that Nightblades lacked good defensive skills and burst heals. Even if I were so generous as to grant you that a "Heal on Kill" skill is a burst heal (it is not), it was at best a willful sidestepping of my argument. Countering "I have no burst heals" with "you have a non functioning and non viable burst heal" is NOT an acceptable answer.
just because the circumstances does not suit your vision of a burst heal doesn't mean it is not a burst heal notice how i identify your statement to something of perspective because thats what your statement translate to... a perspective point of view that is completely situational, it still does change the fact to when i log on and i go on my night blade that ability is still available and yes a burst heal regardless of your perspective of situations to use it in. that is a factual statement.
It's a heal on kill. It's not a burst heal, it's essentially a proc that can only proc when you don't need it because it procs when you WIN.
BOL is a burst heal. Do you see the difference between the two?
The only argument you have here is a purely pedantic one. If I relent on this silly argument you will have successful argued that the only possible class burst heal a Nightblade has is a skill that is so unviable that stamblades in 1.2 playing without access to vigor or rally found it a Waste of Space.
Congratulations, you played yourself.
Edit: but yeah, still not a burst heal. But it's ok, now you don't have to argue NB class heals are broken and need buffs!
so not only have you made it clear that your opinions are not only based on your perspective but you also highlight the the problem with biased players, you completely overlook a fact.... no you digress at the obvious facts with situational suggestions.
i will try my best to simplify the obvious fact.
here i go ..... you are thirsty..... you complain about being thirsty all day.... but a bottle of water is next to you and its been there all day..... you can drink this bottle of water to rid yourself of thirst ....... but you 'CHOOSE' (key word) not to drink this water because you "THINK' (key word) coke is better, therefor you will not acknowledge that you have water right there with you....... because you want coke.
moral of the story is..... at least you have it.
Dude.
I'm dying of thirst. I ask you for water and you give me a cup of sea water. Have you technically given me "water"? Yes! But you've been supremely unhelpful and deep down you probably know it.
There is no bias here. I claimed Nightblades had a lack of class defensive abilities and burst heals, and Jules countered with a skill that cannot function as a burst heal in combat. This is fact. It's a glass of sea water: only a compete pedant would insist that I can drink it because it "technically qualifies as water".
just to let you know salt water can be purified.... to clean water. which would make it fresh water. but wow you know what you need salt water to then purify it to fresh water..... hmmm wait you have salt water right.... yes so that means..... wow you can purify it and make fresh water ..... thats amazing. (the fact still stands you have something that you can improve).
If ZoS ever makes reapers Mark viable, I'm happy. Until than, useless skill is useless. I played Nightblade when we had no heals at all and it was STILL useless. I invite you to 1v1 me with your "burst heal" and show me how it works tho.
(loses argument results to "one v one me bro"......)
so you agree you have something. wether it be useless (in your opinion) or useful you finally agree that its is there at your disposal. and yes if ZOS wanted to they could improve it. but what if your a class that doesn't have it.... you can not adapt something that does not exist. conclusion to the debate. wether you perceive an ability as useful or useless it still does not change the fact that you have something that can be used, changed, adapted, improved.
while other classes do not have as much. (and now night blades want more cause the toys they got for xmas was not enough to satisfy there already noticeable, factual collection of advantages, now tell me why night blades suffer from being competitive again....? oh cause its hard to beat stam DKs.... excuse me while i go laugh out loud somewhere)
I've lost no arguments. I have merely invited you to prove the theory. Show me the value of this "burst heal" that I have overlooked.
And mate, I don't even know what the rest of your argument even is. It makes no sense. Having access to a skill that doesn't function in a viable way is MEANINGLESS.
yet again i receive a delusional broken record type of statement....."just because XY and Z it doesn't make it VIABLE' but you still have it to comment on its lack of viability. your not getting this so ill slow it down for you and add a few more dots to break up the words ever so slightly. you.......have......more.....passive.... boost... abilities......than.....other......classes.......
i really hope that helps you understand better. look i just would like to point out that night blades are in a great position better than most. they do not suffer from being competitive and they do not need boost they actually over perform significantly more than they should. and they have more versatility on paper. those are facts. no lies here just hard cold facts. i know the truth hurts. not to mention you have received buffs next patch..... have you noticed that....the patch notes are on the forums you can find them. just to clarify my argument so its crystal clear for you. night blades are overachieving in their damage potential and their utility of certain abilities climb higher than other class abilities and they don't suffer in PVE (stam night blades can complete vet malestrom arena) or PVP in any way. so concentration should be on adapting night blades generally to be balanced with other classes. (toned down)
simple facts simple fair judgment.
There are two separate arguments here:
1. Nightblades have a functioning class burst heal
2. Nightblades are OP
Two very different arguments that intersect but do not really inform the other. Nightblades are great. They just happen to lack good defensive abilities and a burst heal, which tempers thier effectiveness vs classes that have one, the other or a combination of both.
thank you for agreeing to the truth.
they are great.... i would of preferred over performing but were making progress.
wether they are effective because of the lack of defence abilities is questionable..... but the positive here is that the silver lining is we agree they are great and suffer not, not to mention are buffed even more.
concentrations should be on bringing them to balance. and yes defence capabilities also adjusted. one thing is clear though they don't need extra than they already have.
(the chief was never the bad guy in oliver twist.... but oliver himself for being greedy and asking for more when others have none at all)
I have never argued NBs suffered. Not once. I have only pointed out how quantity of buffs does not equal quality, and that a class analysis needs to be broader than "you have more passive buffs". By all means dissect Nightblades and categorize them. But do so thoroughly, don't add up some worthless passives and tell me they're worth more than something like Major Mending or a strong class self heal.Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost0 -
Jules✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Atleast he didn't claim Reaper's Mark is a burst heal... or that Blur returns magicka.
Reaper's mark is a burst heal. It heals for 60% of your max health.
And blur does not return magicka, true.
Please, no. Stahp. It's ok to be wrong sometimes, it happens to us all. Doubling and tripling down on mistakes does you no favors.
I'm not wrong. It IS a burst heal. Unless 60% of your max health is not bursty enough for you?
It's not an on demand burst heal comparable to BOL, but it is still a burst heal.
This is the height of pedantry. The entire point of a burst heal is that you need it Right Now, otherwise any old heal over time will do. Either it functions as a burst heal or it doesn't. And it demonstratively Does Not.
You will also remember that YOU raised this point in response to me saying that Nightblades lacked good defensive skills and burst heals. Even if I were so generous as to grant you that a "Heal on Kill" skill is a burst heal (it is not), it was at best a willful sidestepping of my argument. Countering "I have no burst heals" with "you have a non functioning and non viable burst heal" is NOT an acceptable answer.
just because the circumstances does not suit your vision of a burst heal doesn't mean it is not a burst heal notice how i identify your statement to something of perspective because thats what your statement translate to... a perspective point of view that is completely situational, it still does change the fact to when i log on and i go on my night blade that ability is still available and yes a burst heal regardless of your perspective of situations to use it in. that is a factual statement.
It's a heal on kill. It's not a burst heal, it's essentially a proc that can only proc when you don't need it because it procs when you WIN.
BOL is a burst heal. Do you see the difference between the two?
The only argument you have here is a purely pedantic one. If I relent on this silly argument you will have successful argued that the only possible class burst heal a Nightblade has is a skill that is so unviable that stamblades in 1.2 playing without access to vigor or rally found it a Waste of Space.
Congratulations, you played yourself.
Edit: but yeah, still not a burst heal. But it's ok, now you don't have to argue NB class heals are broken and need buffs!
so not only have you made it clear that your opinions are not only based on your perspective but you also highlight the the problem with biased players, you completely overlook a fact.... no you digress at the obvious facts with situational suggestions.
i will try my best to simplify the obvious fact.
here i go ..... you are thirsty..... you complain about being thirsty all day.... but a bottle of water is next to you and its been there all day..... you can drink this bottle of water to rid yourself of thirst ....... but you 'CHOOSE' (key word) not to drink this water because you "THINK' (key word) coke is better, therefor you will not acknowledge that you have water right there with you....... because you want coke.
moral of the story is..... at least you have it.
Dude.
I'm dying of thirst. I ask you for water and you give me a cup of sea water. Have you technically given me "water"? Yes! But you've been supremely unhelpful and deep down you probably know it.
There is no bias here. I claimed Nightblades had a lack of class defensive abilities and burst heals, and Jules countered with a skill that cannot function as a burst heal in combat. This is fact. It's a glass of sea water: only a compete pedant would insist that I can drink it because it "technically qualifies as water".
just to let you know salt water can be purified.... to clean water. which would make it fresh water. but wow you know what you need salt water to then purify it to fresh water..... hmmm wait you have salt water right.... yes so that means..... wow you can purify it and make fresh water ..... thats amazing. (the fact still stands you have something that you can improve).
If ZoS ever makes reapers Mark viable, I'm happy. Until than, useless skill is useless. I played Nightblade when we had no heals at all and it was STILL useless. I invite you to 1v1 me with your "burst heal" and show me how it works tho.
(loses argument results to "one v one me bro"......)
so you agree you have something. wether it be useless (in your opinion) or useful you finally agree that its is there at your disposal. and yes if ZOS wanted to they could improve it. but what if your a class that doesn't have it.... you can not adapt something that does not exist. conclusion to the debate. wether you perceive an ability as useful or useless it still does not change the fact that you have something that can be used, changed, adapted, improved.
while other classes do not have as much. (and now night blades want more cause the toys they got for xmas was not enough to satisfy there already noticeable, factual collection of advantages, now tell me why night blades suffer from being competitive again....? oh cause its hard to beat stam DKs.... excuse me while i go laugh out loud somewhere)
I've lost no arguments. I have merely invited you to prove the theory. Show me the value of this "burst heal" that I have overlooked.
And mate, I don't even know what the rest of your argument even is. It makes no sense. Having access to a skill that doesn't function in a viable way is MEANINGLESS.
yet again i receive a delusional broken record type of statement....."just because XY and Z it doesn't make it VIABLE' but you still have it to comment on its lack of viability. your not getting this so ill slow it down for you and add a few more dots to break up the words ever so slightly. you.......have......more.....passive.... boost... abilities......than.....other......classes.......
i really hope that helps you understand better. look i just would like to point out that night blades are in a great position better than most. they do not suffer from being competitive and they do not need boost they actually over perform significantly more than they should. and they have more versatility on paper. those are facts. no lies here just hard cold facts. i know the truth hurts. not to mention you have received buffs next patch..... have you noticed that....the patch notes are on the forums you can find them. just to clarify my argument so its crystal clear for you. night blades are overachieving in their damage potential and their utility of certain abilities climb higher than other class abilities and they don't suffer in PVE (stam night blades can complete vet malestrom arena) or PVP in any way. so concentration should be on adapting night blades generally to be balanced with other classes. (toned down)
simple facts simple fair judgment.
There are two separate arguments here:
1. Nightblades have a functioning class burst heal
2. Nightblades are OP
Two very different arguments that intersect but do not really inform the other. Nightblades are great. They just happen to lack good defensive abilities and a burst heal, which tempers thier effectiveness vs classes that have one, the other or a combination of both.
thank you for agreeing to the truth.
they are great.... i would of preferred over performing but were making progress.
wether they are effective because of the lack of defence abilities is questionable..... but the positive here is that the silver lining is we agree they are great and suffer not, not to mention are buffed even more.
concentrations should be on bringing them to balance. and yes defence capabilities also adjusted. one thing is clear though they don't need extra than they already have.
(the chief was never the bad guy in oliver twist.... but oliver himself for being greedy and asking for more when others have none at all)
gold medal to this dude for explaining in 1 page what I failed to do in 10.1 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Atleast he didn't claim Reaper's Mark is a burst heal... or that Blur returns magicka.
Reaper's mark is a burst heal. It heals for 60% of your max health.
And blur does not return magicka, true.
Please, no. Stahp. It's ok to be wrong sometimes, it happens to us all. Doubling and tripling down on mistakes does you no favors.
I'm not wrong. It IS a burst heal. Unless 60% of your max health is not bursty enough for you?
It's not an on demand burst heal comparable to BOL, but it is still a burst heal.
This is the height of pedantry. The entire point of a burst heal is that you need it Right Now, otherwise any old heal over time will do. Either it functions as a burst heal or it doesn't. And it demonstratively Does Not.
You will also remember that YOU raised this point in response to me saying that Nightblades lacked good defensive skills and burst heals. Even if I were so generous as to grant you that a "Heal on Kill" skill is a burst heal (it is not), it was at best a willful sidestepping of my argument. Countering "I have no burst heals" with "you have a non functioning and non viable burst heal" is NOT an acceptable answer.
just because the circumstances does not suit your vision of a burst heal doesn't mean it is not a burst heal notice how i identify your statement to something of perspective because thats what your statement translate to... a perspective point of view that is completely situational, it still does change the fact to when i log on and i go on my night blade that ability is still available and yes a burst heal regardless of your perspective of situations to use it in. that is a factual statement.
It's a heal on kill. It's not a burst heal, it's essentially a proc that can only proc when you don't need it because it procs when you WIN.
BOL is a burst heal. Do you see the difference between the two?
The only argument you have here is a purely pedantic one. If I relent on this silly argument you will have successful argued that the only possible class burst heal a Nightblade has is a skill that is so unviable that stamblades in 1.2 playing without access to vigor or rally found it a Waste of Space.
Congratulations, you played yourself.
Edit: but yeah, still not a burst heal. But it's ok, now you don't have to argue NB class heals are broken and need buffs!
so not only have you made it clear that your opinions are not only based on your perspective but you also highlight the the problem with biased players, you completely overlook a fact.... no you digress at the obvious facts with situational suggestions.
i will try my best to simplify the obvious fact.
here i go ..... you are thirsty..... you complain about being thirsty all day.... but a bottle of water is next to you and its been there all day..... you can drink this bottle of water to rid yourself of thirst ....... but you 'CHOOSE' (key word) not to drink this water because you "THINK' (key word) coke is better, therefor you will not acknowledge that you have water right there with you....... because you want coke.
moral of the story is..... at least you have it.
Dude.
I'm dying of thirst. I ask you for water and you give me a cup of sea water. Have you technically given me "water"? Yes! But you've been supremely unhelpful and deep down you probably know it.
There is no bias here. I claimed Nightblades had a lack of class defensive abilities and burst heals, and Jules countered with a skill that cannot function as a burst heal in combat. This is fact. It's a glass of sea water: only a compete pedant would insist that I can drink it because it "technically qualifies as water".
just to let you know salt water can be purified.... to clean water. which would make it fresh water. but wow you know what you need salt water to then purify it to fresh water..... hmmm wait you have salt water right.... yes so that means..... wow you can purify it and make fresh water ..... thats amazing. (the fact still stands you have something that you can improve).
If ZoS ever makes reapers Mark viable, I'm happy. Until than, useless skill is useless. I played Nightblade when we had no heals at all and it was STILL useless. I invite you to 1v1 me with your "burst heal" and show me how it works tho.
(loses argument results to "one v one me bro"......)
so you agree you have something. wether it be useless (in your opinion) or useful you finally agree that its is there at your disposal. and yes if ZOS wanted to they could improve it. but what if your a class that doesn't have it.... you can not adapt something that does not exist. conclusion to the debate. wether you perceive an ability as useful or useless it still does not change the fact that you have something that can be used, changed, adapted, improved.
while other classes do not have as much. (and now night blades want more cause the toys they got for xmas was not enough to satisfy there already noticeable, factual collection of advantages, now tell me why night blades suffer from being competitive again....? oh cause its hard to beat stam DKs.... excuse me while i go laugh out loud somewhere)
I've lost no arguments. I have merely invited you to prove the theory. Show me the value of this "burst heal" that I have overlooked.
And mate, I don't even know what the rest of your argument even is. It makes no sense. Having access to a skill that doesn't function in a viable way is MEANINGLESS.
yet again i receive a delusional broken record type of statement....."just because XY and Z it doesn't make it VIABLE' but you still have it to comment on its lack of viability. your not getting this so ill slow it down for you and add a few more dots to break up the words ever so slightly. you.......have......more.....passive.... boost... abilities......than.....other......classes.......
i really hope that helps you understand better. look i just would like to point out that night blades are in a great position better than most. they do not suffer from being competitive and they do not need boost they actually over perform significantly more than they should. and they have more versatility on paper. those are facts. no lies here just hard cold facts. i know the truth hurts. not to mention you have received buffs next patch..... have you noticed that....the patch notes are on the forums you can find them. just to clarify my argument so its crystal clear for you. night blades are overachieving in their damage potential and their utility of certain abilities climb higher than other class abilities and they don't suffer in PVE (stam night blades can complete vet malestrom arena) or PVP in any way. so concentration should be on adapting night blades generally to be balanced with other classes. (toned down)
simple facts simple fair judgment.
There are two separate arguments here:
1. Nightblades have a functioning class burst heal
2. Nightblades are OP
Two very different arguments that intersect but do not really inform the other. Nightblades are great. They just happen to lack good defensive abilities and a burst heal, which tempers thier effectiveness vs classes that have one, the other or a combination of both.
thank you for agreeing to the truth.
they are great.... i would of preferred over performing but were making progress.
wether they are effective because of the lack of defence abilities is questionable..... but the positive here is that the silver lining is we agree they are great and suffer not, not to mention are buffed even more.
concentrations should be on bringing them to balance. and yes defence capabilities also adjusted. one thing is clear though they don't need extra than they already have.
(the chief was never the bad guy in oliver twist.... but oliver himself for being greedy and asking for more when others have none at all)
gold medal to this dude for explaining in 1 page what I failed to do in 10.
He misses the exact same points you do.
Quantity of buffs > quality of buffs.
Also:
Buffs are not the only aspects to examine when determining if a class is OP or not.
Somehow you've managed to ignore these simple facts for almost 20 pages.
FFS Jules! How can you even pretend Nightblades wouldn't trade more than half the buffs you list for Major Mending?Edited by Satiar on May 16, 2016 1:21AMVehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭There's no point arguing with people who don't listen, I'd just let it go and let this thread sink.
You can clearly see the true intentions of Jules below on her reply:Your class' overwhelming access to these buffs and stam options are but a small piece of why they are OP.
NBs, the weakest 1v1 class in the game - are "op" and need to get nerfed.
No point in giving these people a platform by bumping their thread - maybe one day they'll learn to play rather than make QQ threads.Edited by DDuke on May 16, 2016 1:38AM4 -
Jules✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Atleast he didn't claim Reaper's Mark is a burst heal... or that Blur returns magicka.
Reaper's mark is a burst heal. It heals for 60% of your max health.
And blur does not return magicka, true.
Please, no. Stahp. It's ok to be wrong sometimes, it happens to us all. Doubling and tripling down on mistakes does you no favors.
I'm not wrong. It IS a burst heal. Unless 60% of your max health is not bursty enough for you?
It's not an on demand burst heal comparable to BOL, but it is still a burst heal.
This is the height of pedantry. The entire point of a burst heal is that you need it Right Now, otherwise any old heal over time will do. Either it functions as a burst heal or it doesn't. And it demonstratively Does Not.
You will also remember that YOU raised this point in response to me saying that Nightblades lacked good defensive skills and burst heals. Even if I were so generous as to grant you that a "Heal on Kill" skill is a burst heal (it is not), it was at best a willful sidestepping of my argument. Countering "I have no burst heals" with "you have a non functioning and non viable burst heal" is NOT an acceptable answer.
just because the circumstances does not suit your vision of a burst heal doesn't mean it is not a burst heal notice how i identify your statement to something of perspective because thats what your statement translate to... a perspective point of view that is completely situational, it still does change the fact to when i log on and i go on my night blade that ability is still available and yes a burst heal regardless of your perspective of situations to use it in. that is a factual statement.
It's a heal on kill. It's not a burst heal, it's essentially a proc that can only proc when you don't need it because it procs when you WIN.
BOL is a burst heal. Do you see the difference between the two?
The only argument you have here is a purely pedantic one. If I relent on this silly argument you will have successful argued that the only possible class burst heal a Nightblade has is a skill that is so unviable that stamblades in 1.2 playing without access to vigor or rally found it a Waste of Space.
Congratulations, you played yourself.
Edit: but yeah, still not a burst heal. But it's ok, now you don't have to argue NB class heals are broken and need buffs!
so not only have you made it clear that your opinions are not only based on your perspective but you also highlight the the problem with biased players, you completely overlook a fact.... no you digress at the obvious facts with situational suggestions.
i will try my best to simplify the obvious fact.
here i go ..... you are thirsty..... you complain about being thirsty all day.... but a bottle of water is next to you and its been there all day..... you can drink this bottle of water to rid yourself of thirst ....... but you 'CHOOSE' (key word) not to drink this water because you "THINK' (key word) coke is better, therefor you will not acknowledge that you have water right there with you....... because you want coke.
moral of the story is..... at least you have it.
Dude.
I'm dying of thirst. I ask you for water and you give me a cup of sea water. Have you technically given me "water"? Yes! But you've been supremely unhelpful and deep down you probably know it.
There is no bias here. I claimed Nightblades had a lack of class defensive abilities and burst heals, and Jules countered with a skill that cannot function as a burst heal in combat. This is fact. It's a glass of sea water: only a compete pedant would insist that I can drink it because it "technically qualifies as water".
just to let you know salt water can be purified.... to clean water. which would make it fresh water. but wow you know what you need salt water to then purify it to fresh water..... hmmm wait you have salt water right.... yes so that means..... wow you can purify it and make fresh water ..... thats amazing. (the fact still stands you have something that you can improve).
If ZoS ever makes reapers Mark viable, I'm happy. Until than, useless skill is useless. I played Nightblade when we had no heals at all and it was STILL useless. I invite you to 1v1 me with your "burst heal" and show me how it works tho.
(loses argument results to "one v one me bro"......)
so you agree you have something. wether it be useless (in your opinion) or useful you finally agree that its is there at your disposal. and yes if ZOS wanted to they could improve it. but what if your a class that doesn't have it.... you can not adapt something that does not exist. conclusion to the debate. wether you perceive an ability as useful or useless it still does not change the fact that you have something that can be used, changed, adapted, improved.
while other classes do not have as much. (and now night blades want more cause the toys they got for xmas was not enough to satisfy there already noticeable, factual collection of advantages, now tell me why night blades suffer from being competitive again....? oh cause its hard to beat stam DKs.... excuse me while i go laugh out loud somewhere)
I've lost no arguments. I have merely invited you to prove the theory. Show me the value of this "burst heal" that I have overlooked.
And mate, I don't even know what the rest of your argument even is. It makes no sense. Having access to a skill that doesn't function in a viable way is MEANINGLESS.
yet again i receive a delusional broken record type of statement....."just because XY and Z it doesn't make it VIABLE' but you still have it to comment on its lack of viability. your not getting this so ill slow it down for you and add a few more dots to break up the words ever so slightly. you.......have......more.....passive.... boost... abilities......than.....other......classes.......
i really hope that helps you understand better. look i just would like to point out that night blades are in a great position better than most. they do not suffer from being competitive and they do not need boost they actually over perform significantly more than they should. and they have more versatility on paper. those are facts. no lies here just hard cold facts. i know the truth hurts. not to mention you have received buffs next patch..... have you noticed that....the patch notes are on the forums you can find them. just to clarify my argument so its crystal clear for you. night blades are overachieving in their damage potential and their utility of certain abilities climb higher than other class abilities and they don't suffer in PVE (stam night blades can complete vet malestrom arena) or PVP in any way. so concentration should be on adapting night blades generally to be balanced with other classes. (toned down)
simple facts simple fair judgment.
There are two separate arguments here:
1. Nightblades have a functioning class burst heal
2. Nightblades are OP
Two very different arguments that intersect but do not really inform the other. Nightblades are great. They just happen to lack good defensive abilities and a burst heal, which tempers thier effectiveness vs classes that have one, the other or a combination of both.
thank you for agreeing to the truth.
they are great.... i would of preferred over performing but were making progress.
wether they are effective because of the lack of defence abilities is questionable..... but the positive here is that the silver lining is we agree they are great and suffer not, not to mention are buffed even more.
concentrations should be on bringing them to balance. and yes defence capabilities also adjusted. one thing is clear though they don't need extra than they already have.
(the chief was never the bad guy in oliver twist.... but oliver himself for being greedy and asking for more when others have none at all)
gold medal to this dude for explaining in 1 page what I failed to do in 10.
He misses the exact same points you do.
Quantity of buffs > quality of buffs.
Also:
Buffs are not the only aspects to examine when determining if a class is OP or not.
Somehow you've managed to ignore these simple facts for almost 20 pages.
I never said that buffs were the only aspect, they are simply a piece. YOU said that I said that. YOU assumed that I think that, I did not and do not.
Buffs are but a piece of the pie. However, they are a valid piece that people like you keep trying to diminish. Your class' overwhelming access to these buffs and stam options are but a small piece of why they are OP. And I mean, cut the ***. You're basically only talking about major mending. So why not just say it. NB doesn't get major mending. That's about the only buff they don't.
But I mean, on flip side, major fracture on a stamina single target sounds like one of those "quality" buffs to me, but idk, what you think bro? No one else has that.2 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Atleast he didn't claim Reaper's Mark is a burst heal... or that Blur returns magicka.
Reaper's mark is a burst heal. It heals for 60% of your max health.
And blur does not return magicka, true.
Please, no. Stahp. It's ok to be wrong sometimes, it happens to us all. Doubling and tripling down on mistakes does you no favors.
I'm not wrong. It IS a burst heal. Unless 60% of your max health is not bursty enough for you?
It's not an on demand burst heal comparable to BOL, but it is still a burst heal.
This is the height of pedantry. The entire point of a burst heal is that you need it Right Now, otherwise any old heal over time will do. Either it functions as a burst heal or it doesn't. And it demonstratively Does Not.
You will also remember that YOU raised this point in response to me saying that Nightblades lacked good defensive skills and burst heals. Even if I were so generous as to grant you that a "Heal on Kill" skill is a burst heal (it is not), it was at best a willful sidestepping of my argument. Countering "I have no burst heals" with "you have a non functioning and non viable burst heal" is NOT an acceptable answer.
just because the circumstances does not suit your vision of a burst heal doesn't mean it is not a burst heal notice how i identify your statement to something of perspective because thats what your statement translate to... a perspective point of view that is completely situational, it still does change the fact to when i log on and i go on my night blade that ability is still available and yes a burst heal regardless of your perspective of situations to use it in. that is a factual statement.
It's a heal on kill. It's not a burst heal, it's essentially a proc that can only proc when you don't need it because it procs when you WIN.
BOL is a burst heal. Do you see the difference between the two?
The only argument you have here is a purely pedantic one. If I relent on this silly argument you will have successful argued that the only possible class burst heal a Nightblade has is a skill that is so unviable that stamblades in 1.2 playing without access to vigor or rally found it a Waste of Space.
Congratulations, you played yourself.
Edit: but yeah, still not a burst heal. But it's ok, now you don't have to argue NB class heals are broken and need buffs!
so not only have you made it clear that your opinions are not only based on your perspective but you also highlight the the problem with biased players, you completely overlook a fact.... no you digress at the obvious facts with situational suggestions.
i will try my best to simplify the obvious fact.
here i go ..... you are thirsty..... you complain about being thirsty all day.... but a bottle of water is next to you and its been there all day..... you can drink this bottle of water to rid yourself of thirst ....... but you 'CHOOSE' (key word) not to drink this water because you "THINK' (key word) coke is better, therefor you will not acknowledge that you have water right there with you....... because you want coke.
moral of the story is..... at least you have it.
Dude.
I'm dying of thirst. I ask you for water and you give me a cup of sea water. Have you technically given me "water"? Yes! But you've been supremely unhelpful and deep down you probably know it.
There is no bias here. I claimed Nightblades had a lack of class defensive abilities and burst heals, and Jules countered with a skill that cannot function as a burst heal in combat. This is fact. It's a glass of sea water: only a compete pedant would insist that I can drink it because it "technically qualifies as water".
just to let you know salt water can be purified.... to clean water. which would make it fresh water. but wow you know what you need salt water to then purify it to fresh water..... hmmm wait you have salt water right.... yes so that means..... wow you can purify it and make fresh water ..... thats amazing. (the fact still stands you have something that you can improve).
If ZoS ever makes reapers Mark viable, I'm happy. Until than, useless skill is useless. I played Nightblade when we had no heals at all and it was STILL useless. I invite you to 1v1 me with your "burst heal" and show me how it works tho.
(loses argument results to "one v one me bro"......)
so you agree you have something. wether it be useless (in your opinion) or useful you finally agree that its is there at your disposal. and yes if ZOS wanted to they could improve it. but what if your a class that doesn't have it.... you can not adapt something that does not exist. conclusion to the debate. wether you perceive an ability as useful or useless it still does not change the fact that you have something that can be used, changed, adapted, improved.
while other classes do not have as much. (and now night blades want more cause the toys they got for xmas was not enough to satisfy there already noticeable, factual collection of advantages, now tell me why night blades suffer from being competitive again....? oh cause its hard to beat stam DKs.... excuse me while i go laugh out loud somewhere)
I've lost no arguments. I have merely invited you to prove the theory. Show me the value of this "burst heal" that I have overlooked.
And mate, I don't even know what the rest of your argument even is. It makes no sense. Having access to a skill that doesn't function in a viable way is MEANINGLESS.
yet again i receive a delusional broken record type of statement....."just because XY and Z it doesn't make it VIABLE' but you still have it to comment on its lack of viability. your not getting this so ill slow it down for you and add a few more dots to break up the words ever so slightly. you.......have......more.....passive.... boost... abilities......than.....other......classes.......
i really hope that helps you understand better. look i just would like to point out that night blades are in a great position better than most. they do not suffer from being competitive and they do not need boost they actually over perform significantly more than they should. and they have more versatility on paper. those are facts. no lies here just hard cold facts. i know the truth hurts. not to mention you have received buffs next patch..... have you noticed that....the patch notes are on the forums you can find them. just to clarify my argument so its crystal clear for you. night blades are overachieving in their damage potential and their utility of certain abilities climb higher than other class abilities and they don't suffer in PVE (stam night blades can complete vet malestrom arena) or PVP in any way. so concentration should be on adapting night blades generally to be balanced with other classes. (toned down)
simple facts simple fair judgment.
There are two separate arguments here:
1. Nightblades have a functioning class burst heal
2. Nightblades are OP
Two very different arguments that intersect but do not really inform the other. Nightblades are great. They just happen to lack good defensive abilities and a burst heal, which tempers thier effectiveness vs classes that have one, the other or a combination of both.
thank you for agreeing to the truth.
they are great.... i would of preferred over performing but were making progress.
wether they are effective because of the lack of defence abilities is questionable..... but the positive here is that the silver lining is we agree they are great and suffer not, not to mention are buffed even more.
concentrations should be on bringing them to balance. and yes defence capabilities also adjusted. one thing is clear though they don't need extra than they already have.
(the chief was never the bad guy in oliver twist.... but oliver himself for being greedy and asking for more when others have none at all)
gold medal to this dude for explaining in 1 page what I failed to do in 10.
He misses the exact same points you do.
Quantity of buffs > quality of buffs.
Also:
Buffs are not the only aspects to examine when determining if a class is OP or not.
Somehow you've managed to ignore these simple facts for almost 20 pages.
I never said that buffs were the only aspect, they are simply a piece. YOU said that I said that. YOU assumed that I think that, I did not and do not.
Buffs are but a piece of the pie. However, they are a valid piece that people like you keep trying to diminish. Your class' overwhelming access to these buffs and stam options are but a small piece of why they are OP. And I mean, cut the ***. You're basically only talking about major mending. So why not just say it. NB doesn't get major mending. That's about the only buff they don't.
But I mean, on flip side, major fracture on a stamina single target sounds like one of those "quality" buffs to me, but idk, what you think bro? No one else has that.
Who cares? Literally, who cares? Major Fracture is meaningless. Take it, no one cares. Burst is so high in this game that i couldn't care if it stays or goes. On a Stamblade I use WB anyways. NEXT.
And yes, Nightblades lack major mending. Probably the best buff in the game right now. Period. And we can't get it. So yeah, let's talk about that Jules. 1-2% Crit here, a minor ward there (lol), some petty magica return on kill, etc etc etc etc. No one cares. You're throwing all these buffs at me and I'm like yeah, they're *nice*. But none of them are game changers, not even in aggregate. So yeah, I'm really really dismissive of the argument that quantity of buffs = OP when I'd trade almost all of them for the buffs that actually matter.
And actually, it was YOU who presented a simple picture of a list of buffs and used it to call Nightblades OP. It's in the freaking thread title ffs. If you look back to the early pages, I was the one who brought up core class mechanics as what makes us really function well and you dismissed it out of hand!
To sum, your OP is built off a faulty premise. Nightblades have a great variety of buffs that allow us to play a variety of builds BUT we lack certain buffs that push other classes over the top! The lack of major mending and a class based burst heal is a big set back that should be strongly considered when accusing Nightblades of being obviously overpowered.
Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost1 -
Dyride✭✭✭✭✭genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »genjutsu_kami wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »
And what does it change that only one class got a way to gain major evasion from his class specific trees, if others can get the very same buff easily aswell? Its simply irrelevant in a game where you can pick from various skill lines and not only the class specific ones. Thats why I think a list of minor/major buffs each class cannot get by any way would be much more interesting, but it would certainly require a lot more work.
People keep acting like, "well you can just run weapon skills, so what does it matter, we get the same buff!"
I'll tell you exactly why it matters.
It's very relevant when 1 class gets options for these buffs through their class skills. Why? Because it allows for them to choose their weapons based on what they want to run instead of what they need to run.
A good example of this is NB's having ambush. A gap closer is fairly necessary for every person in Cyrodiil. So where as nb can look at the weapon lines and say, should I run DW for more damage? Or s&b for more tankiness, or 2h for rally? They always have that very viable class gap closer (ambush) which allows them to be more creative with their builds. Same goes for their single target. Other classes would kill for a stamina instant cast single target. Nb is the only class in the game that has these things at their disposal right within their class so of course that is fairly imbalanced.
I mean... templars have a spamable called jabs... yeah its a channel but its also conal. If you wanna talk about what classes have and what others dont. I dont see any stamina class dots on anything but a DK... weeeer wheres my nb stam dots WEEEEEER. better go make a post how classes are not the same.
This is a post you cant win jules.
If I can't win its not because I'm not right as much as it is that you are resistant to logic and/or you just don't know how to read.
Within nb class lines, for stam option skills they have:
An AOE
A single target
An ultimate
A gap closer
An execute
A buff that is also a damage proc
Dks:
An ultimate
2 dots
Templars:
A cc
An aoe
Sorcs:
A buff
An aoe
The fact that you would even have the audacity to propose that that's balanced is literally mind boggling.
Yes nightblades do have all those things. You know why?! because its a rouge class.
You dont see anyone else making posts about how the templar has too many magic abilitys and heals.
Have you played any other MMOS? last i checked this is something so common around a rouge class everything you mentioned there... is pretty much in any other MMO.
There are so many people on this post calling you out on this post and saying you are wrong yet you refuse to think out side the box. Clearly you dont like NBs... we get it and we dont care.
It isn't about liking nightblades. It isn't about personal preference. It's about one class having the accessibility to stamina skills and major/minor buffs way way way above that of what the others have access to.
And it doesn't matter how many people can "call me out" and say I'm wrong. Take a poll bro. I guarantee you 80%+ of those people on this thread are nightblades who dont want to get nerfed.
Nightblades know their class best. Disqualifying the very people capable of proving you wrong on such a flimsy pretext is kinda shady.
I beg to differ from some players. Aka, those nb's who didn't know the old cloak pruge morph purged 4 dots not 1.
Or the kid who told me two pages ago that surprise attack only applies major fracture from stealth.
Atleast he didn't claim Reaper's Mark is a burst heal... or that Blur returns magicka.
Reaper's mark is a burst heal. It heals for 60% of your max health.
And blur does not return magicka, true.
Please, no. Stahp. It's ok to be wrong sometimes, it happens to us all. Doubling and tripling down on mistakes does you no favors.
I'm not wrong. It IS a burst heal. Unless 60% of your max health is not bursty enough for you?
It's not an on demand burst heal comparable to BOL, but it is still a burst heal.
This is the height of pedantry. The entire point of a burst heal is that you need it Right Now, otherwise any old heal over time will do. Either it functions as a burst heal or it doesn't. And it demonstratively Does Not.
You will also remember that YOU raised this point in response to me saying that Nightblades lacked good defensive skills and burst heals. Even if I were so generous as to grant you that a "Heal on Kill" skill is a burst heal (it is not), it was at best a willful sidestepping of my argument. Countering "I have no burst heals" with "you have a non functioning and non viable burst heal" is NOT an acceptable answer.
just because the circumstances does not suit your vision of a burst heal doesn't mean it is not a burst heal notice how i identify your statement to something of perspective because thats what your statement translate to... a perspective point of view that is completely situational, it still does change the fact to when i log on and i go on my night blade that ability is still available and yes a burst heal regardless of your perspective of situations to use it in. that is a factual statement.
It's a heal on kill. It's not a burst heal, it's essentially a proc that can only proc when you don't need it because it procs when you WIN.
BOL is a burst heal. Do you see the difference between the two?
The only argument you have here is a purely pedantic one. If I relent on this silly argument you will have successful argued that the only possible class burst heal a Nightblade has is a skill that is so unviable that stamblades in 1.2 playing without access to vigor or rally found it a Waste of Space.
Congratulations, you played yourself.
Edit: but yeah, still not a burst heal. But it's ok, now you don't have to argue NB class heals are broken and need buffs!
so not only have you made it clear that your opinions are not only based on your perspective but you also highlight the the problem with biased players, you completely overlook a fact.... no you digress at the obvious facts with situational suggestions.
i will try my best to simplify the obvious fact.
here i go ..... you are thirsty..... you complain about being thirsty all day.... but a bottle of water is next to you and its been there all day..... you can drink this bottle of water to rid yourself of thirst ....... but you 'CHOOSE' (key word) not to drink this water because you "THINK' (key word) coke is better, therefor you will not acknowledge that you have water right there with you....... because you want coke.
moral of the story is..... at least you have it.
Dude.
I'm dying of thirst. I ask you for water and you give me a cup of sea water. Have you technically given me "water"? Yes! But you've been supremely unhelpful and deep down you probably know it.
There is no bias here. I claimed Nightblades had a lack of class defensive abilities and burst heals, and Jules countered with a skill that cannot function as a burst heal in combat. This is fact. It's a glass of sea water: only a compete pedant would insist that I can drink it because it "technically qualifies as water".
just to let you know salt water can be purified.... to clean water. which would make it fresh water. but wow you know what you need salt water to then purify it to fresh water..... hmmm wait you have salt water right.... yes so that means..... wow you can purify it and make fresh water ..... thats amazing. (the fact still stands you have something that you can improve).
If ZoS ever makes reapers Mark viable, I'm happy. Until than, useless skill is useless. I played Nightblade when we had no heals at all and it was STILL useless. I invite you to 1v1 me with your "burst heal" and show me how it works tho.
(loses argument results to "one v one me bro"......)
so you agree you have something. wether it be useless (in your opinion) or useful you finally agree that its is there at your disposal. and yes if ZOS wanted to they could improve it. but what if your a class that doesn't have it.... you can not adapt something that does not exist. conclusion to the debate. wether you perceive an ability as useful or useless it still does not change the fact that you have something that can be used, changed, adapted, improved.
while other classes do not have as much. (and now night blades want more cause the toys they got for xmas was not enough to satisfy there already noticeable, factual collection of advantages, now tell me why night blades suffer from being competitive again....? oh cause its hard to beat stam DKs.... excuse me while i go laugh out loud somewhere)
I've lost no arguments. I have merely invited you to prove the theory. Show me the value of this "burst heal" that I have overlooked.
And mate, I don't even know what the rest of your argument even is. It makes no sense. Having access to a skill that doesn't function in a viable way is MEANINGLESS.
yet again i receive a delusional broken record type of statement....."just because XY and Z it doesn't make it VIABLE' but you still have it to comment on its lack of viability. your not getting this so ill slow it down for you and add a few more dots to break up the words ever so slightly. you.......have......more.....passive.... boost... abilities......than.....other......classes.......
i really hope that helps you understand better. look i just would like to point out that night blades are in a great position better than most. they do not suffer from being competitive and they do not need boost they actually over perform significantly more than they should. and they have more versatility on paper. those are facts. no lies here just hard cold facts. i know the truth hurts. not to mention you have received buffs next patch..... have you noticed that....the patch notes are on the forums you can find them. just to clarify my argument so its crystal clear for you. night blades are overachieving in their damage potential and their utility of certain abilities climb higher than other class abilities and they don't suffer in PVE (stam night blades can complete vet malestrom arena) or PVP in any way. so concentration should be on adapting night blades generally to be balanced with other classes. (toned down)
simple facts simple fair judgment.
There are two separate arguments here:
1. Nightblades have a functioning class burst heal
2. Nightblades are OP
Two very different arguments that intersect but do not really inform the other. Nightblades are great. They just happen to lack good defensive abilities and a burst heal, which tempers thier effectiveness vs classes that have one, the other or a combination of both.
thank you for agreeing to the truth.
they are great.... i would of preferred over performing but were making progress.
wether they are effective because of the lack of defence abilities is questionable..... but the positive here is that the silver lining is we agree they are great and suffer not, not to mention are buffed even more.
concentrations should be on bringing them to balance. and yes defence capabilities also adjusted. one thing is clear though they don't need extra than they already have.
(the chief was never the bad guy in oliver twist.... but oliver himself for being greedy and asking for more when others have none at all)
gold medal to this dude for explaining in 1 page what I failed to do in 10.
He misses the exact same points you do.
Quantity of buffs > quality of buffs.
Also:
Buffs are not the only aspects to examine when determining if a class is OP or not.
Somehow you've managed to ignore these simple facts for almost 20 pages.
I never said that buffs were the only aspect, they are simply a piece. YOU said that I said that. YOU assumed that I think that, I did not and do not.
Buffs are but a piece of the pie. However, they are a valid piece that people like you keep trying to diminish. Your class' overwhelming access to these buffs and stam options are but a small piece of why they are OP. And I mean, cut the ***. You're basically only talking about major mending. So why not just say it. NB doesn't get major mending. That's about the only buff they don't.
But I mean, on flip side, major fracture on a stamina single target sounds like one of those "quality" buffs to me, but idk, what you think bro? No one else has that.
You make a post with an assertive "NB are OP" and use a list that only relates to the # of available buffs. How was anyone supposed to think you were taking any other appoarch?
Steve never said the number of buffs is inconsequential, but duplication of certain buffs and lack of others is a huge point towards his arguments.
If you had based your argument how NBs outperform other classes resource using Siphoning Attacks, I would agree and you could have found room to continue your arguments elsewhere.
I honestly think Manny gave a good summary, though I think he is discounting how hard his DBOS will hit next patch when he says Stamplars have no burst.
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