Min/Max and Hybrid Classes

Bonzodog01 · May 2016

One of the things that has struck me in the past year of playing this game is that the devs behind the game always had Hybrid classes as a central theme, yet seemingly destroyed them early on by removing soft caps. An example of this is the sheer amount of blatantly Hybrid Class NPC's running about - most bosses in the storylines are Stam Sorcs who run equal magicka and stamina pools from the way they use their abilities.

So my big question is - why is there still such a thing as min/max-ing in this game and what could be done to encourage hybrid builds?

I have thought of a couple of ideas, but at least one of them would require an almost complete re-write of the base game code. Still, I'll air my idea in a nutshell -

Remove two or three of the four locked racial passives from all races, and make it so that at character creation, you choose 2 or 3 racial passives to add to the two already in - maybe make it so that you can choose the weapon passive, and choose whether that character gets magicka, stamina or health bonuses. That way, any race can have bonuses to both magicka and stamina, or you can choose to roll a pure character.

Also, make it so that again, during character creation, you choose the 3 skill trees you want to play that character with. Essentially, remove classes entirely from the game.

This way, in theory, would allow you to build a Wood Elf char with bonuses to Max magicka, magicka regen, and Staves, but retains the locked passive of Stealth bonus.

You could then equip that char with say - Shadow, Dawns Wrath, and Storm calling. This is just an example. Once these decisions are made, they are locked.

Its just an idea, as it would allow to some-one to build a character with Max Stamina bonus, max Magicka bonus, and choose 3 skill trees that mix both magicka and stamina.

Jeckll · May 2016

I like Min/Maxing.

Aisle9 · May 2016

I like Min/Maxing too.

Sallington · May 2016

No hybrid builds without soft caps. None that are competitive in any way at least.

Sunburnt_Penguin · May 2016

I like min/maxing three.

CasNation · May 2016

I am also like min maxing...I also also generally against the idea of removing classes on this game. I think it would create more problems than it would solve in terms of balance and min maxing.

KaleidoscopeEyz · May 2016

Diversity stinks. We should all be the same 2 or 3 builds. That was sarcasm. They should really have a font for that.

Fallen_Ray · May 2016

Racial bonuses shouldn't be touched. Its more of a lore related thing. Altmers are skilled in magicka, Dunmers are skilled in magicka and blades (they are also good with bows but that was scrapped here). Some racials were already altered to fit the online play style if we compare them to previous Elder Scrolls games.

I agree with you on the rest. We should be able to create own own classes by choosing 3 specialization Main skill lines that way we can make an effective hybrid like it was possible on Oblivion, Morrowind and Skyrim.

Rex-Umbra · May 2016

Soft caps would probably add more diversity

idk · May 2016

Sallington wrote: »

No hybrid builds without soft caps. None that are competitive in any way at least.

Hybrid builds were never competitive. I have played the game since early release. The best builds were always pure.

First problem is gearing. Either one does not stack crit chance or weak on crit chance for one side of the build.

Second, there was merely a soft cap. One could continue to stack magika or stam and this would continue to increase the damage skills did.

Granted, hybrid builds can be fun but that's all they've been. It's a great game with many choices. Much more than any big box MMO that I've seen. In the end it comes down to some choices we better then others.

To the idea of creating our own class. Never. Absolutely miserable idea as you will still not have a choice and build variety would be reduced to 3 builds, tank, heal and dps. Fortunately Zos has enough sense to not go down that road.

myrrrorb14_ESO · May 2016

Hybrids are for tanking and for entertainment purposes only. Back when we had soft and hard caps it was possible but difficult to do and remain competive.

You can still run hybrids. I do. But I will never put out the numbers of pure builds.

The Devs scale content to min/max so hybrids will most likely never happen in any appreciable numbers. Don't get me wrong, most of the content is easy. But most of the new Bosses and trials you need a min/max build for.

More to your point. It would take a major rewrite to make hybrids happen. Maybe if you severed damage from stats and just used them for sustain.

NMT · May 2016

Hybrids are only an issue in pvp. In pve they could be very viable.

The problem is ZOS are trying to be all things to all people.

TheShadowScout · May 2016

I like hybrids.
I dislike min/maxing.

I believe all min/maxxers will go to that "special" hell, right with the people who talk at the theater...

And I really would love to see softcaps return, or some diminishing returns system like they have for CPoints for stat points as well, to encourage people to not min/maxx their way to victory.

Or trial setups that somehow punish people for min/maxed builds.

But hey, that's me...

Esquire1980g_ESO · May 2016

As far as I can see, the main problem with hybrids is the inclusion of damage with points in mag/sta. If they removed that system and turned it into damage from specials/weapons that would go along way to even the score, so to speak.

Another problem is armor mitigation still capped at 50%. To remove the caps in place at launch for damage but still include the cap of mitigation was an large oversight that creates nothing but imbalance. Too many developers keep adding DPS in a game but leave out a way to balance that added damage. New gear, new systems, P2W, new DLCs, all of them can bring in new DPS and the min/maxer will figure that out pretty quickly. We commonly call this "power creep". And then with that power creep, devs have no other alternative but to create bosses that are massive hit point bags to offset the other systems, added DPS/etc which throws boss fights into the many minutes -.5 hr range. Vet levels are going the way of the dino, but CP will give you........, you guessed it, MORE POWER, all with that cap on mitigation still in place. Poor design.

These problems not only affect builds diversity within PVP in an adverse manner, but PVE and future PVE all come with their problems as well.

dday3six · May 2016

Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »

As far as I can see, the main problem with hybrids is the inclusion of damage with points in mag/sta. If they removed that system and turned it into damage from specials/weapons that would go along way to even the score, so to speak.

Another problem is armor mitigation still capped at 50%. To remove the caps in place at launch for damage but still include the cap of mitigation was an large oversight that creates nothing but imbalance. Too many developers keep adding DPS in a game but leave out a way to balance that added damage. New gear, new systems, P2W, new DLCs, all of them can bring in new DPS and the min/maxer will figure that out pretty quickly. We commonly call this "power creep". And then with that power creep, devs have no other alternative but to create bosses that are massive hit point bags to offset the other systems, added DPS/etc which throws boss fights into the many minutes -.5 hr range. Vet levels are going the way of the dino, but CP will give you........, you guessed it, MORE POWER, all with that cap on mitigation still in place. Poor design.

These problems not only affect builds diversity within PVP in an adverse manner, but PVE and future PVE all come with their problems as well.

The resist caps are there to make sure no one hits 100% damage mitigation. You cannot seriously think that would be in any way healthly for the game.

susmitds · May 2016

After DB drops, I will present you the ultimate Min-maxed hybrid builds.

myrrrorb14_ESO · May 2016

susmitds wrote: »

After DB drops, I will present you the ultimate Min-maxed hybrid builds.

Sounds good! Drop a hint on what you're planning?

susmitds · May 2016

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

After DB drops, I will present you the ultimate Min-maxed hybrid builds.

Sounds good! Drop a hint on what you're planning?

Imagine running into mobs with both proxy detonation and steel tornado at the same time and both being viable.

Ser Lobo · May 2016

As a person who dislikes min-maxing, and generally chooses his character's race, armor, and weapons based on the backstory I created the character off of, I support any system which includes the removal of classes, and supports more random builds and creative design.

The less the players focus on numbers and stats, the better in my opinion.

xblackroxe · May 2016

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I like hybrids.
I dislike min/maxing.

I believe all min/maxxers will go to that "special" hell, right with the people who talk at the theater...

And I really would love to see softcaps return, or some diminishing returns system like they have for CPoints for stat points as well, to encourage people to not min/maxx their way to victory.

Or trial setups that somehow punish people for min/maxed builds.

But hey, that's me...

What is weong with min/maxing?
There will always be min/maxing as people want to be the best in what they do (many not all). It doesn't matter if there are softcaps or hybridbuilds will somehow be viable or whatever comes there will always be a "best" (in terms of dps, tanking, healing) way to make a build and people will find it for certain.

MasterSpatula · May 2016

This ship sailed a long time ago. The game was built to encourage hybrid builds, but min/maxers just went straight for for pure builds, and the complaints of how Stamina builds weren't viable and Magica builds were overpowered began approximately the moment the first player got into the game.

ZOS listened, and ever since they've been trying and failing to balance two distinct styles that were never intended to exist.

They've invested far too much time and effort in trying to correct their failure to anticipate how people would actually play the game. They can't turn back now.

EDIT: In case that sounded really down on ZOS, I blame the players more on this one. We had a chance at something innovative, but the short-sighted need to maximize power ruined it.

Dagoth_Rac · May 2016

People will just min/max their racial bonuses and 3 class skill lines. And the min/max builds will end up even more powerful than they are right now.

And people seem to have some rose-colored glasses when it comes to softcaps. No one was running hybrid builds in endgame PvE at that time. It was all magicka DK DPS with destro staves and magicka Templar healers with resto staves. Maybe the tank was a hybrid, but more likely they were still a light armor tank.

I actually see much more diversity in builds now in PvE than when there were soft caps.

They came out with those "Undaunted Unweaver" and "Undaunted Infilitrator" sets when the game still had softcaps. Explicitly hybrid sets. No one wore them.

Miszou · May 2016

Disconnecting the damage bonus from the stat pools would be a good start.

I get so sick of hearing people say "But I'm a stam-build and I can't use xyz magicka skill".

Yes. Yes you can. You just don't want to, because you've gimped it by putting all your eggs in another basket. That's your fault. Stop crying about it and accept the build choices you made.

xblackroxe · May 2016

Miszou wrote: »

Disconnecting the damage bonus from the stat pools would be a good start.

I get so sick of hearing people say "But I'm a stam-build and I can't use xyz magicka skill".

Yes. Yes you can. You just don't want to, because you've gimped it by putting all your eggs in another basket. That's your fault. Stop crying about it and accept the build choices you made.

This wont change a thing though. People will still min/max just without stacking ressources too. There was never a time where hybrids were better than pure builds.

xblackroxe · May 2016

MasterSpatula wrote: »

This ship sailed a long time ago. The game was built to encourage hybrid builds, but min/maxers just went straight for for pure builds, and the complaints of how Stamina builds weren't viable and Magica builds were overpowered began approximately the moment the first player got into the game.

ZOS listened, and ever since they've been trying and failing to balance two distinct styles that were never intended to exist.

They've invested far too much time and effort in trying to correct their failure to anticipate how people would actually play the game. They can't turn back now.

EDIT: In case that sounded really down on ZOS, I blame the players more on this one. We had a chance at something innovative, but the short-sighted need to maximize power ruined it.

Yeah you're right those idiot who players that like to play the game different than you definitely destroyed the game. I alwaS have to laugh at such comments like yours. Thinking that your way to play is the only reasonable one. LOL
Its still an mmo people will always try to be the best at what they are doing. And thats not a bad thing.

TheShadowScout · May 2016

xblackroxe wrote: »

What is weong with min/maxing?
There will always be min/maxing as people want to be the best in what they do (many not all). It doesn't matter if there are softcaps or hybridbuilds will somehow be viable or whatever comes there will always be a "best" (in terms of dps, tanking, healing) way to make a build and people will find it for certain.

Not sure there is something wrong with it per se... I -personally- think its wrong that it is the most effective way to get through a game. But as I mentioned, it is a personal opinion of mine. I would like it when characters that put all their skill points in magica never made it past one stage of a dungeon that required people to have some health at least. I would like it is people who had put it all in stamina could not get past one magic lock that required at least a single point "wasted" on magica or something like that.
In that spirit, I would love it if the game system favored balanced builds over min/maxxed ones.
It doesn't. Not by a wide margin.
But again, that's me. Others may love to min/max their builds.

I also dislike it if there is one "best" build - I much prefer is if different builds have different strengths and weaknesses. And if the content is done in a way that requires different strengths at different points, to make it interesting for every flavor of build.
Again, that's me. Others may prefer if they can build a hammer character, and then go encounter only nail type quests for the rest of their game lives...

Acrolas · May 2016

We'll have twelve character slots soon. Plenty of room to be both competitive and experimental on the same account and in the same alliance.

I appreciate the rebels and outlaws, though. Rebecca Lirlane is my homegirl.

Firerock2 · May 2016

BRING BACK SOFTCAPS

Helluin · May 2016

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

They came out with those "Undaunted Unweaver" and "Undaunted Infilitrator" sets when the game still had softcaps. Explicitly hybrid sets. No one wore them.

In PvP I and some others in my guild were using those for small scale.

Mix/max surely is not a problem, it's obvious that everyone wants to improve his/her character and it's part of the fun.

Some players asked to remove softcaps for build diversification but nowadays instead I see really similar or copycat builds, more than before.
Some other players found quite "difficult" to understand why a skill was using weapon crit and spell damage, etc.
To help them with their "hard" dilemma (or their limitations, if you prefer), devs went for an huge rework - rebalance.

Surely pre 1.6 game required several adjustments but the removal of softcaps + Champion System + skills divided into stamina/magicka was too much at the same time and the main reason that lead to several problems that devs had to solve because of infinite resources, power creep, etc.
We have some of these problems still nowadays and sets that are a legacy of pre 1.6 system.

At least Pelinal's Aptidude is an acknowledgement for those who are missing their fun hybrid builds, even if something more could be done.
What @Miszou suggested could be a good start.

MasterSpatula · May 2016

xblackroxe wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

This ship sailed a long time ago. The game was built to encourage hybrid builds, but min/maxers just went straight for for pure builds, and the complaints of how Stamina builds weren't viable and Magica builds were overpowered began approximately the moment the first player got into the game.

ZOS listened, and ever since they've been trying and failing to balance two distinct styles that were never intended to exist.

They've invested far too much time and effort in trying to correct their failure to anticipate how people would actually play the game. They can't turn back now.

EDIT: In case that sounded really down on ZOS, I blame the players more on this one. We had a chance at something innovative, but the short-sighted need to maximize power ruined it.

Yeah you're right those idiot who players that like to play the game different than you definitely destroyed the game. I alwaS have to laugh at such comments like yours. Thinking that your way to play is the only reasonable one. LOL
Its still an mmo people will always try to be the best at what they are doing. And thats not a bad thing.

Whoooah, slow down there, buddy. You've made some rather extreme leaps in your logic there. I wouldn't say it's completely unreasonable to draw the conclusions you drew from what I said--it's more like "spectacularly unlikely" or "somewhat unhinged."

ZOS resisted adding in a death recap and giving us access to hard numbers of how much damage we were doing for a reason. They had a cool idea, a notion of getting away from the min/max paradigm that was so popular in so many MMO but was completely offputting for a lot of potential customers. And why not? It's not like people who were into min/max didn't have every other game on the market to play if that's what they wanted.

The players rejected it.

You think it was a good choice. I think it was maybe a good choice, maybe a bad choice. I lean a little to the "bad choice" side, because I'm intrigued by what the game could have been. That disagreement is fine. But:

Thinking that your way to play is the only reasonable one. LOL

Not gonna say that conclusion is 100% on you, but it's in the high 90s.

Back on topic, I'll just repeat what I said before: Interesting ideas, but far too late. The game's going in the opposite direction now, for better or for worse.

Esquire1980g_ESO · May 2016

dday3six wrote: »

Esquire1980g_ESO wrote: »

As far as I can see, the main problem with hybrids is the inclusion of damage with points in mag/sta. If they removed that system and turned it into damage from specials/weapons that would go along way to even the score, so to speak.

Another problem is armor mitigation still capped at 50%. To remove the caps in place at launch for damage but still include the cap of mitigation was an large oversight that creates nothing but imbalance. Too many developers keep adding DPS in a game but leave out a way to balance that added damage. New gear, new systems, P2W, new DLCs, all of them can bring in new DPS and the min/maxer will figure that out pretty quickly. We commonly call this "power creep". And then with that power creep, devs have no other alternative but to create bosses that are massive hit point bags to offset the other systems, added DPS/etc which throws boss fights into the many minutes -.5 hr range. Vet levels are going the way of the dino, but CP will give you........, you guessed it, MORE POWER, all with that cap on mitigation still in place. Poor design.

These problems not only affect builds diversity within PVP in an adverse manner, but PVE and future PVE all come with their problems as well.

The resist caps are there to make sure no one hits 100% damage mitigation. You cannot seriously think that would be in any way healthly for the game.

In fact I can.

50%, as on live, is almost nothing, so much nothing that most builds I've seen here do not even try to factor mitigation into anything. You choose armor based on DPS passives, NOT anything to do with mitigation.

And no, no1 should be able to mitigate 100%, but perhaps 80% should be obtainable with heavy armor. With the nerfs to sta regen and now the coming blocking, perma blocking will suddenly become a thing of the past. I'm sure that perma shields are soon to go the way of the dino as well. Already started that 1 with lowering the time shields are up to cause more need for resources.

All the while, more DPS is being factored into the system. The new patch includes what? MORE DPS for heavy armor and less blocking. EVERY time they up the CP cap, will result in additional DPS and I'm sure they're not to going to leave it as it is forever, maybe this DLC, but how about the next one or the one after that?

If you're all that worried about players being hard to kill in PVP, some of the best PVP fights I've had are the very long ones, back in SWG, some could go on for even as long as a 1/2 hour before we called it a draw. The other end of the spectrum is STO, keep adding DPS, nerfing tanking, and you suddenly end up with 1-shot kills (Vapeing - whoever hits the button 1st) and that one totally killed some really good PVP over there. You know it's bad when a dev comes to the forums saying "we could take PVP totally out of the game and no1 would even notice".