please reconsider vampire changes, no incentive to feed

camilla_noctis · May 2016

I wanted to provide constructive criticism that I think is very important to the overall gameplay and feel of the vampire line/feature.

On live it is typical to stay at stage 4, because the costs are reduced and the downside, health regen decrease, has a negligible impact on combat due to the abundance of heals that are much greater than the regen. This is not an opinion on the state of health regen - personally I wouldn't mind having it be more useful, but this is just how it is currently.

The issue with PTS changes, is that it makes that problem more exaggerated. Since the passives are tied to hunger stages, and the only way to have all the passives is to be at stage 4, then I feel like I want to stay at stage 4 even moreso than before. A notable difference is that your fire vulnerability gets reduced as you feed. Perhaps this is useful in particularly difficult situations involving fire damage that requires optimization. However in general, most don't consider the fire vulnerability a deal breaker, and would probably still stay at stage 4 to actually have more fun as a vampire.

On live, I occasionally feed to stage 3 for appearance's sake, but I know I'm taking a (albeit small) "hit" to my performance. If these PTS changes go live as-is, I will never feed again. Why give up those passives? Maybe stage 4 sneak speed is niche, but it's fun and good for Thieves Guild, and stage 3 required for the Undeath damage mitigation is pretty good. The reason this bothers me, is because if you had to pick one thing vampires were "about", it's feeding on blood. Yet, the way vampire gameplay works in this game, we don't feed at all; many of us are basically not blood drinkers, period. As far as specifics go, for one thing, past Elder Scrolls games did have vampirism that worked in a similar way, but some key differences are that the fire penalty was much larger at higher stages, and NPCs became hostile to you at stage 4. Both these things may, but probably wouldn't, fit well into ESO being an mmo.

Bottom line: players with vampirism mostly don't feed, PTS changes make that worse. Feeding is essential to the fantasy of playing a vampire. Please consider other ways of tuning the feed scale with more trade-offs.

emily3989 · May 2016

I can see someone, like a vamp tank, feeding before fire-based dungeons.

I cannot remember the last time I fed, and cannot see why I would after DB comes out either

EXCEPT

if they don't fix triggers for feeding and assassinating that lap on top of each other, then Stage 1 might be necessary just to run DB quests without wanting to throat bunch a developer in frustration.

In which case I can just spam cast back to stage 4 anyway, so that is nice.

camilla_noctis · May 2016

One more thing, what I DO LIKE about the new changes, is the longer stages with the option to use abilities to advance it. If there were more trade-offs, this would become a very fun minigame of going up and down the stages, changing your style slightly as your abilities changed. But at least as it is, if I run into the unfortunate event of accidentally feeding, at least I have a way back to full power quickly.

xylena · May 2016

It would've made sense if it was solely a direct tradeoff between fire weakness and cost reduction... but tying the passives to higher feeding stages just ensures that stage 4 will continue to be the best for combat.

camilla_noctis · May 2016

xylena wrote: »

It would've made sense if it was solely a direct tradeoff between fire weakness and cost reduction... but tying the passives to higher feeding stages just ensures that stage 4 will continue to be the best for combat.

Yeah, if this were the case I would feed for dungeons and let it drop for pvp. Basically, I like the idea of making the fire resist change, but keep the passives all the time/with skills slotted. This is at least a simple solution.

Another idea of how to buff fed stages, is replace health regen being recovered, with a bonus to max health. A more used stat, at least for tanking, and fits the feeding for vitality theme.

dsalter · May 2016

having access to all the passives at stage 4 is what causes it to become meh.
as someone who used a vampire long term before i HAD to cure it due to lives 1shot vamp deaths becoming stupid common, having access to Dark Stalker and bats were the main reason i put up with it for so long and now it's basically if i want my speedy sneak passive i'v gotta starve anyways? while everything else is just ok at best.

should have just been:
stage 4 = ULTI cost reduction and not just bats cost reduction and 30% fire damage increase and a reduced health.
stage 1 = 0 ulti reduction and 0 fire damage weakness and a 10% bonus health regen.

gives you a reason to consider stage one as a mutagen stage or stage 4 as a fighting stage.

this is how i'v always considered ES vampires, superior mortals when well fed and looked after, deadly fighters when starved. none of this other nonsense of stealth if starved, taking more damage in a state of weakness etc, this is what kills the vampire changes for me, it's only a buff if your doing exactly what you did in live to begin with.

for others like myself who use vampire mainly for Dark stalker and access to bats (stam sorc so needed the devouring) so i feed. and often. now i'm nerfed for doing what i did to begin with cause it's outside the everyone no-breakfast club, i now lose my dark stalker passive, the main vampire perk that compelled me to use the curse to begin with.

ManDraKE · May 2016

camilla_noctis wrote: »

Bottom line: players with vampirism mostly don't feed, PTS changes make that worse. Feeding is essential to the fantasy of playing a vampire. Please consider other ways of tuning the feed scale with more trade-offs.

Your bottom line pretty much summarize what is wrong with your post. If you want to play the "fantasy", why we all should be forced to do it? The day that RP affects balance, is the day that this game goes to the dump. If you like to feed, FEED, nobody is stopping you.

xylena · May 2016

Your bottom line pretty much summarize what is wrong with your post. If you want to play the "fantasy", why we all should be forced to do it?

It's not about forcing players to feed, it's about making feeding a viable choice for combat, as opposed to something that simply gimps your vampire.

camilla_noctis · May 2016

ManDraKE wrote: »

camilla_noctis wrote: »

Bottom line: players with vampirism mostly don't feed, PTS changes make that worse. Feeding is essential to the fantasy of playing a vampire. Please consider other ways of tuning the feed scale with more trade-offs.

Your bottom line pretty much summarize what is wrong with your post. If you want to play the "fantasy", why we all should be forced to do it?

Most people don't feed because it diminishes your powers, some may or may not want to. No one wants to force you to do anything. If balanced, it would simply give an alternative way to play.

ManDraKE wrote: »

The day that RP affects balance, is the day that this game goes to the dump. If you like to feed, FEED, nobody is stopping you.

Story/lore makes the game possible and matters to many players. Nonetheless, we want to feed and be viable just as much as you have expressed wanting to be viable without feeding. These should both be choices encouraged by the game.

ManDraKE · May 2016

xylena wrote: »

Your bottom line pretty much summarize what is wrong with your post. If you want to play the "fantasy", why we all should be forced to do it?

It's not about forcing players to feed, it's about making feeding a viable choice for combat, as opposed to something that simply gimps your vampire.

do you think that forcing vampires to run away of combat to feed is a good "choice for combat"? Can't imagine being on cyrodril in a middle of a big fight, and having to run away to feed.

This post is about RP, not about combat. If you wanna talk about combat, lets talk about the passives and the skills, not about the "fantasy of being a vampire"

camilla_noctis · May 2016

ManDraKE wrote: »

do you think that forcing vampires to run away of combat to feed is a good "choice for combat"?

camilla_noctis wrote: »

...just as much as you have expressed wanting to be viable without feeding. These should both be choices encouraged by the game.

CasNation · May 2016

From a game play perspective, I think the changes are phenomenal. Now, I can take my vamp NB into PvE content without being a liability to my team, OR go all the way up to stage 4 and have the advantages (and risks) that come with Vampirism in PvP.

Overall, I completely disagree with your post in that with this patch I have much MORE of a reason to feed and manage my stages. Besides, TES vampires has pretty much always gained power and vulnerability when hungry, so this actually fits quite well with the existing lore.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · May 2016

My magicka NB like the changes. Nothing changes for her.

My magicka tank templar love the new changes. I can pop down to stage 3 and have less fire vulnerability.

My stamina NB hates the changes, as she has to be ugly to keep the stealth bonus, which was the only part of vampire she used.

These changes just cemented the meta that there is NO reason not to be at stage 4 and there is no reason ever to feed.

Health recovery is an utterly irrelevant stat in the game. It has no impact on any gameplay if you have 0 or 2000 in it.

SanTii.92 · May 2016

So, you want to be a vampire, but you don't like how they look, and you also want to min-max? Yea, something is off here. The trade off is just fine mate.

dsalter · May 2016

sAnn92 wrote: »

So, you want to be a vampire, but you don't like how they look, and you also want to min-max? Yea, something is off here. The trade off is just fine mate.

it's more of the fact that feeding is mostly negatives and more positives for not feeding. feeding should be better for survival but less power while not feeding should give you more power and less survival as with all ES games.

Undeath and Dark Stalker (sneaking is survival) not working when fully fed goes against that rule, giving you more survival at the starved stage.

they should just change the ulti thing to ALL ulti costs reduction but reverse the passives so you get less passives and more raw power as you starve.
like a true ES Vampire, recklessly overwhelming your pray with raw power when starving, and being a superior mortal with the cunning to hide among other lesser mortals when well looked after.

Older Elder scrolls fans can vouch for me on this.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · May 2016

sAnn92 wrote: »

So, you want to be a vampire, but you don't like how they look, and you also want to min-max? Yea, something is off here. The trade off is just fine mate.

There is no min max , stage 4 = bonus, whatever you get out of the other stages is irrelevant.

As to appearance, my bosmer looked silly as a non vampire, vampire made her look great at stage 1..... and it is a stam NB where the cost reductions didn't mean anything for her... until this patch where she now HAS to be stage 4 just like EVERY F... other vampire.

SanTii.92 · May 2016

That's just not true, it is only from a pure dps perspective. Not being weak to fire is significant as always, and health regen is indeed an important stat, specially for pvp. And correct m we if I'm wrong but don't you get passing be magicka regen at stage one without any skill slotted?
The changes are a buffed across the board and fairly well implemented

emily3989 · May 2016

I thought passives only kicked in for stages 2-4.

Siluen · May 2016

I believe the changes to vampires are excellent. You can really balance out how much extra fire damage you take and the passives you want, it is a tradeoff you will have far more control of than you do now. And from a roleplay perspective, it is in general amazing for anyone that has a prefered vampirism stage besides stage 4, I personally really like the look of stage 2 on my character, but I could only stay there for a really brief window of time before hassling with the stages again. This patch is going to be amazing in that regard.

camilla_noctis · May 2016

Siluen wrote: »

I believe the changes to vampires are excellent. You can really balance out how much extra fire damage you take and the passives you want, it is a tradeoff you will have far more control of than you do now. And from a roleplay perspective, it is in general amazing for anyone that has a prefered vampirism stage besides stage 4, I personally really like the look of stage 2 on my character, but I could only stay there for a really brief window of time before hassling with the stages again. This patch is going to be amazing in that regard.

At stage 2 I would lose Undeath and Dark Stalker, and that's a deal breaker. I think the fire weakness is overstated in general, and that lowering it isn't enough incentive to lose passives AND ability costs, especially not in the average dungeon - really it's not even that threatening unless you like standing around in fire aoes.

I love the detail of the appearances of the stages, but again losing that sneak bonus for feeding at all just makes me not want to ever. 'Fed' stages need a buff. In the very least, if nothing else, leave the passives unaffected by stage and that would allow a little more flexibility.

ElliottXO · May 2016

ManDraKE wrote: »

camilla_noctis wrote: »

Bottom line: players with vampirism mostly don't feed, PTS changes make that worse. Feeding is essential to the fantasy of playing a vampire. Please consider other ways of tuning the feed scale with more trade-offs.

Your bottom line pretty much summarize what is wrong with your post. If you want to play the "fantasy", why we all should be forced to do it? The day that RP affects balance, is the day that this game goes to the dump. If you like to feed, FEED, nobody is stopping you.

Forced? Who forced you to take the dark curse of vampirism?

You probably just took it for the higher numbers.
With the DB patch I feel forced to play vampire, because basically all trade offs are gone.

KenaPKK · May 2016

We need a reason to feed in PvP combat other than a breakable (and therefore useless) cc that also increases our ability costs.

We need explicit and useful buffs that each max out at either Stage 1 or 4 and fade as you advance stages to the other, counterbalancing each other and promoting different play styles across the different stages.

Combine that with a strong incentive to feed in combat, and suddenly every vamp experiences all the stages for different reasons and at different times, and has to put explicit effort into maintaining the stage they want for a while and then advancing back through the stages either in combat or after combat.

We also need more abilities and alterations to the passives.

I have a whole big ol' list of changes that I'd like to see for vampirism akin to my monster post on Imperial City PvP objectives here that I might just have to write out...

GreenSoup2HoT · May 2016

I'd like to see some to incentive to feed while stage 4.

bardx86 · May 2016

I do not want to have to feed. leave it alone.

Hutch679 · May 2016

Why not reverse the stages to the opposite as in stage 4 buffs/debuffs are now stage 1, making feeding absolutely a necessity to have all the buffs. I've never fed before and don't plan on ever doing it especially now that it's changing so you don't even get some of the buffs unless youre stage 4. Still think the fire debuff is slightly too strong. I think it should be 20% instead of 25%. I think the vamp buffs for DB look mediocre tbh. Werewolves get dire wolves now? They already have an entire skill bar devoted to them... Where are the additional vampire skills? Weak if you ask me...

Overall I give it a D+ on the changes coming. Idk if this was really thought out. There are literally HOURS of reading from community feedback on the forums regarding vamp changes and I would be surprised if the ideas and changes coming in the new update really took more than 45 minutes to come up with.

Poor effort.

Digiman · May 2016

I think the idea is to make it so when you behave like mortal not using your powers and hiding among the populace, this advancement to the next stage when you use vamp abilities was something I modded in ES games.

It makes sense that when you start draining blood nonchalant you become inhuman and the beast would take over as you dropped bodies

Reminds of Vampire the Masquerade: blood lines where you lost humanity when you killed innocents.

As for the stages before I didn't think turning into a vamp was beneficial and more of a causality because you needed to use vamp powers to be effective, now it seems like it improves your character at a choice rather then waiting for the timer.

I think you will see a lot of players feeding more now because they want to reduce their stage when they don't feel like being disadvantaged because they wanted to use vampire abilities..

This seems like a pretty good change

dsalter · May 2016

Digiman wrote: »

I think the idea is to make it so when you behave like mortal not using your powers and hiding among the populace, this advancement to the next stage when you use vamp abilities was something I modded in ES games.

It makes sense that when you start draining blood nonchalant you become inhuman and the beast would take over as you dropped bodies

Reminds of Vampire the Masquerade: blood lines where you lost humanity when you killed innocents.

As for the stages before I didn't think turning into a vamp was beneficial and more of a causality because you needed to use vamp powers to be effective, now it seems like it improves your character at a choice rather then waiting for the timer.

I think you will see a lot of players feeding more now because they want to reduce their stage when they don't feel like being disadvantaged because they wanted to use vampire abilities..

This seems like a pretty good change

the only vampire abilities worth using are all at stage 4. the worst stage to only want passives. being in stage 4 should also boost damage or something by 5%, and remove the stage dependant passives, honestly it's offputting

phaneub17_ESO · May 2016

Shouldn't a well-fed vampire have increased damage? They are at their full potential rather than being starved at stage 4, I'm not saying that you should get any damage penalties for progressing in stages, but it would be an incentive if feeding gave you a damage boost that degrades as you go through each hunger stage.

Stage 1 - 3% increase to weapon and spell damage.
Stage 2 - 2% increase to weapon and spell damage.
Stage 3 - 1% increase to weapon and spell damage.
Stage 4 - no change.

I'm only citing weapon and spell damage as a full on increase to all damage would be too much, it's a small incentive to want to feed, but doesn't change enough to have to always feed to have the upper hand. Gives player a choice where they want it.

Epona222 · May 2016

Hasn't vampire in TES always worked that the more you feed, the more human (and less vampire powers) you are?
Feeding restores your humanity, not feeding brings out the worst/best excesses of being a vampire. TES has a bit of a history of taking fantasy/horror tropes and subverting them in some way, making them a bit different.

There always has been one good reason for feeding prior to DB, and that is if you are going into a group dungeon with a boss mechanic that involves fire all over the place, that is good reason enough to be at stage 1. Having a longer timer between the stages is good for that reason, and if you do not want to stay at stage 1 you can always spam abilities which reduces the timer to the next stage.

Lokryn · May 2016

Maybe if they added another effect to feeding it might incentive folks to use it? Perhaps cause it to do damage or give you a temporary buff of some sort.

camilla_noctis · May 2016

Lokryn wrote: »

Maybe if they added another effect to feeding it might incentive folks to use it? Perhaps cause it to do damage or give you a temporary buff of some sort.

Another idea I am enthusiastic about, is this: feeding granting a food buff.

I found it weird that I was constantly shoving regular food in my face as a vampire, then it occurred to me, since keeping a food buff up is something everyone is used to for gameplay in general, it would be both thematic and mechanically simple to give vamps the option to feed to acquire that buff instead of eating. I don't know what specifics would be best, whether there's a general stat boost that everyone could use, or work the other strengths/weaknesses in there. The goal here would be to allow normal gameplay of using food, or replacing food with feeding, with both as viable choices.