Poisons, AoE Caps & Stacking Snare: Teaching players bullying is acceptable conduct by rewarding it.

Docmandu · May 2016

Ajax_22 wrote: »

The poisons are just plain garbage for PvP. They are the worst things added to this game since the Champion Point system. Which was the worst thing added to this game since .

Poisons plus the insane cost increase is going to destroy Non Vet, and Non CP campaigns. The drain poisons have to go, or poisons need to be bared from Cyrodiil. I'd prefer the latter so that PvEers can have their cool toys without any impact on us.

Have to agree on this.. the game is already very gear / potion dependent, hence gold > skill.. these poisons aren't going to help with that.

The difference between running in gold gear and with decent pots.. versus purple with crap or no pots is night an day.

timidobserver · May 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I haven't tested poisons at all, but can you really have 5 different poisons on you at one time? If so, you are right that they are potentially going to cripple solo/small scale play.

My understanding is each player can have one active poison and you can be affected by multiple poisons but forgive me if I am mistaken.

Hmmm that is going to be a pain. I do like the idea of the poison system, but I can definitely see myself only running in coordinated bomb groups or gank groups if running solo will subject me to multiple people applying multiple poison debuffs that disable my own buffs.

Are you intentionally skipping over the posts that have said that only ONE NAMED poison can be active at a time... meaning that if five enemy players are using xx poison against a player, only ONE of those poisons will impact the player- NOT all five. However, if five players are using five different named poisons, then yes, it appears it could put a person in pretty bad shape. Perhaps a solution is to make it so that only ONE poison can be active on any one person at a time.

Yes, I am intentionally ignoring those posts because they aren't what I am talking about. I have an issue with multiple poisons of different names impacting the same player not the same name.

Do you have an issue with multiple radiant opps affecting the same player?
Multiple Crushing shock?
Multiple snipes?
Multiple Ambush?
Multiple meteor?
Multiple cfrags?
multiple swallow soul?
multiple silver shards?
multip;e lava whips?
multiple surprise attacks?
multiple shrouded daggers?
multple (insert 90%) of the content of the game except for dedicated non-damaging cc)

yes, if five people coordinate five simultaneous attacks against you so that they aren't gonna conflict then you take all five... whether it be poison or almost anything else.

Should all these "five can coordinate" be similarly cut back like poisons?

this "many v one thing is some sort of boogeyman being throw out instead of saying "like almost every other attack power in the game"...

I really dont get it other than "we minmaxed and dont want something added that can steal our buffs so this sounds like a truthy counter argument"

Poisons will not only change the meta, they will make "metas" unreliable and combat very unpredictable and that seems to make a subset of folks unhappy.

me? I love it!!!

The difference between poisons and the various attack skills you listed is that poisons bring the potential possibility of coordinated debuff spamming a target, which will make outnumbered/solo play more difficult. This is different from the list of attacks you listed that primarily do damage with an occasional/minor side debuff.

The idea that poisons will change the meta is pretty naive. Poisons won't change anything in the grand scheme of things. It will just add even more of a disadvantage to being outnumbered. While potentially crippling outnumbered/small scale play, it will have little to no impact at all on zergs.

Rune_Relic · May 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

I suggested a while back that instead of trying to make 1 on 10 winnable which would seem to mske 1 on 1 unwinnable, zos should apply a group fsctor.

If hit by more thsn x sources in a tivk, all dsmage is hslved.
If hit by more thsn 2x, alk damage is quartered,

If 3x damage is 10%

Spevific ZONES and events could have different X values.

This would discourage zergs in "patrol" zones where x=3
But alloe RAIDS where x=10
Etc etc

When you entered a pvp area, the x factor would apoear.

Stop trying to screw with fights at the powers level and just provide a dialable oversight factor that allows for customized scalsble conflicts.

Kind of agree.
Xv1 is just as much and issue as 1vX.

Part of me says....well you have been outnumbered so you should melt.
Part of me says...why play if you are outnumbered every where you go and instantly melt before you get a shot off ?

Shoud we disable Xv1 or enable 1vX ?
Should we simply enforce population balance and rely on our allies for help rather than our own godlike powers ?

Rune_Relic · May 2016

I am not on PTS.
Is their antidotes to pre-emptively negate the poison effects ?
Or is it a one sided combat mechanic.

NBrookus · May 2016

TrueNord47 wrote: »

..... the pvp isnt designed for small scale so maybe stop trying to play like that and you know help your alliance? im sure they will make something for all you people who hate teamwork eventually. anybody who thinks they can run around solo in pvp is just asking for it.

Who do you think is scouting and making the calls when enemy forces are moving, or alerting early when there is siege on a keep? Who do you think is hitting reinforcements lines and taking out forward camps? Ever seen a small force take out a siege line with a flank attack?

Stacking on crown and hitting 3 when the leader tells everyone to start their prox det is not the only way people play this game.

Ultimately, the whole alliance is suppose to be the team that works together.

artal · May 2016

It seems to me that people that cant 1vx don't want anyone else to do it.
Why should it be game over if i face 1v5. If I'm better player than them I should get chance to kill them or kill few, or at least give them good fight. Its what I enjoy doing in this game. If someone enjoys running in big groups and just spam skills, I don't mind and I'm not telling them to change their playstlye.
I dont mind if my enemies shut me down with skillful play but giving such high reward on something that can proc on light or heavy attack and completely destroy one player is stupid. I can see groups running poisons with different effects and stacking them on people.
Thing is that even if you get hit by only 1 poison it can seriously gimp you with some combinations.

If you really want to push poisons in pvp than i would suggest to tone them down a lot and let only one poison can effect you at a time.

Cathexis · May 2016

Rune_Relic wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

I suggested a while back that instead of trying to make 1 on 10 winnable which would seem to mske 1 on 1 unwinnable, zos should apply a group fsctor.

If hit by more thsn x sources in a tivk, all dsmage is hslved.
If hit by more thsn 2x, alk damage is quartered,

If 3x damage is 10%

Spevific ZONES and events could have different X values.

This would discourage zergs in "patrol" zones where x=3
But alloe RAIDS where x=10
Etc etc

When you entered a pvp area, the x factor would apoear.

Stop trying to screw with fights at the powers level and just provide a dialable oversight factor that allows for customized scalsble conflicts.

Kind of agree.
Xv1 is just as much and issue as 1vX.

Part of me says....well you have been outnumbered so you should melt.
Part of me says...why play if you are outnumbered every where you go and instantly melt before you get a shot off ?

Shoud we disable Xv1 or enable 1vX ?
Should we simply enforce population balance and rely on our allies for help rather than our own godlike powers ?

This is exactly the dilemma that leads to me making the decision to quit. When there is a massive population imbalance, you can't rely on your allies... And unfortunately, there is a massive population imbalance a lot of the time. Being able to even the odds by playing well is what makes PvP enjoyable. When I go into cyrodiil now the only time there is a good fight is when there are equal numbers of forces of equal strength, otherwise it's just a crusade simulator. First one zerg takes the keeps, logs off, then another zerg retakes the keeps. There's no actual open PvP.

The other day I tried to engage a seige line off the wall and I got a message from the other side saying "stay in your keep."

Like I need to sit there while they seige, like it's my job or something. Screw you, i'll fight if I feel like it.

Esquire1980g_ESO · May 2016

I was looking at PVP for end game and if this goes live the way it has been explained here, I doubt I'll ever hit a PVP area.

I'm already unbuffed enough by playing Nords/Hybrid Templars. (no sustain, damage tied to how many points you have in Mag/Sta).

Never did care that much for "programmed to die" or FoTMs. And if these devs played SWG as much as I think they have, then they can remember that "Dire Snare" was about the worst thing that was added during the NGE which pretty much killed PVP for certain profs and made Mando the must have in PVP - abilities that can NOT be countered. Nothing more that will get me out of PVP faster than being perma-anything that all I can do is clone due to game systems.

ContraTempo · May 2016

Are there a lot of players who do 1vX with any class other than NB? I'm not asking if you have ever happened to find your Templar/Sorc/DK temporarily outnumbered, but if you frequently go out solo seeking groups of the enemy to engage. Every time I see this it seems to be a NB.

Are we mostly talking about the playstyle of a single class?

artal · May 2016

ContraTempo wrote: »

Are there a lot of players who do 1vX with any class other than NB? I'm not asking if you have ever happened to find your Templar/Sorc/DK temporarily outnumbered, but if you frequently go out solo seeking groups of the enemy to engage. Every time I see this it seems to be a NB.

Are we mostly talking about the playstyle of a single class?

Actually I played 1vX on all classes. Currently I'm running nb but its tanky char without cloak. Only nb skills i use are ultimates, surprise attack and fear (not even ambush). Any char i play I am solo 80% of the time, for the rest of time I run with 1 buddy. Am I pwning everyone i see? No. But i win plenty of outnumbered fights, and often i survive against big groups for a loong time. I am certainly not the best player but I enjoy trying to fight multiple opponents and often winning. Thats what I'm seeking in this game.
I had lots of sucsess with dmg dealer stam sorc, tanky stamplar and dk to, and ofc magicka nb and sorc (these 2 are most simple to do 1vx for me at least).

Ajax_22 · May 2016

TrueNord47 wrote: »

..... the pvp isnt designed for small scale so maybe stop trying to play like that and you know help your alliance? im sure they will make something for all you people who hate teamwork eventually. anybody who thinks they can run around solo in pvp is just asking for it.

This is incorrect. Originally this game was designed so that groups of all sizes had things they could do to help their alliance win the campaign. Small highly skilled and coordinated groups of 4-8 people use to be able to hold off large uncoordinated zergs at the gates and bridges. They were also excellent at flanking a siege line to either by time for more allies to arrive or completely routing the siege. However, if these smaller groups went against similarly coordinated medium or large groups they could put up a good fight, but were very often DOA. ZOS has been implementing mechanics that result in this play style becoming nonexistent, and promoting this whoever can get the most people to follow a single person wins meta. AOE caps and the removal of Dynamic Ult were the first two, and these poisons are just another to add to that list.

ContraTempo wrote: »

Are there a lot of players who do 1vX with any class other than NB? I'm not asking if you have ever happened to find your Templar/Sorc/DK temporarily outnumbered, but if you frequently go out solo seeking groups of the enemy to engage. Every time I see this it seems to be a NB.

Are we mostly talking about the playstyle of a single class?

No, 1vX is not restricted to a single class. Magic Vamp DKs were the original 1vX class way back when. Magic Sorcs were also the king of 1vX for a while. 1vX against a decent group requires either good survivability or great mobility. Temps and DKs use to have amazing survivability and Magic Sorcs had both. NBs are the only class that really haven't had their mobility destroyed.

Rune_Relic · May 2016

Cathexis wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

I suggested a while back that instead of trying to make 1 on 10 winnable which would seem to mske 1 on 1 unwinnable, zos should apply a group fsctor.

If hit by more thsn x sources in a tivk, all dsmage is hslved.
If hit by more thsn 2x, alk damage is quartered,

If 3x damage is 10%

Spevific ZONES and events could have different X values.

This would discourage zergs in "patrol" zones where x=3
But alloe RAIDS where x=10
Etc etc

When you entered a pvp area, the x factor would apoear.

Stop trying to screw with fights at the powers level and just provide a dialable oversight factor that allows for customized scalsble conflicts.

Kind of agree.
Xv1 is just as much and issue as 1vX.

Part of me says....well you have been outnumbered so you should melt.
Part of me says...why play if you are outnumbered every where you go and instantly melt before you get a shot off ?

Shoud we disable Xv1 or enable 1vX ?
Should we simply enforce population balance and rely on our allies for help rather than our own godlike powers ?

This is exactly the dilemma that leads to me making the decision to quit. When there is a massive population imbalance, you can't rely on your allies... And unfortunately, there is a massive population imbalance a lot of the time. Being able to even the odds by playing well is what makes PvP enjoyable. When I go into cyrodiil now the only time there is a good fight is when there are equal numbers of forces of equal strength, otherwise it's just a crusade simulator. First one zerg takes the keeps, logs off, then another zerg retakes the keeps. There's no actual open PvP.

The other day I tried to engage a seige line off the wall and I got a message from the other side saying "stay in your keep."

Like I need to sit there while they seige, like it's my job or something. Screw you, i'll fight if I feel like it.

I'm the same....if i see a siege line I am stright out their stealth sabotaging every single one of them if I can.
Its worth the ride back
No siege ....no lost keep..

Frawr · May 2016

staracino_ESO wrote: »

This is (video game) war... not schoolyard recess. Superior numbers are one of the most surefire ways to win.

yes because they have engineered it that way, presumably because incompetent players were being slaughtered.

TrueNord47 wrote: »

..... the pvp isnt designed for small scale so maybe stop trying to play like that and you know help your alliance? im sure they will make something for all you people who hate teamwork eventually. anybody who thinks they can run around solo in pvp is just asking for it.

PVP has been deliberately engineered to protect incompetent players in large blobs from being killed by good players in small groups.

i.e., AOE caps.

you are correct in that it is designed for large scale. It is just such a shame that the Welfare PVP is designed to make bad players die less, rather than to provide an even field for all.

STEVIL · May 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I haven't tested poisons at all, but can you really have 5 different poisons on you at one time? If so, you are right that they are potentially going to cripple solo/small scale play.

My understanding is each player can have one active poison and you can be affected by multiple poisons but forgive me if I am mistaken.

Hmmm that is going to be a pain. I do like the idea of the poison system, but I can definitely see myself only running in coordinated bomb groups or gank groups if running solo will subject me to multiple people applying multiple poison debuffs that disable my own buffs.

Are you intentionally skipping over the posts that have said that only ONE NAMED poison can be active at a time... meaning that if five enemy players are using xx poison against a player, only ONE of those poisons will impact the player- NOT all five. However, if five players are using five different named poisons, then yes, it appears it could put a person in pretty bad shape. Perhaps a solution is to make it so that only ONE poison can be active on any one person at a time.

Yes, I am intentionally ignoring those posts because they aren't what I am talking about. I have an issue with multiple poisons of different names impacting the same player not the same name.

Do you have an issue with multiple radiant opps affecting the same player?
Multiple Crushing shock?
Multiple snipes?
Multiple Ambush?
Multiple meteor?
Multiple cfrags?
multiple swallow soul?
multiple silver shards?
multip;e lava whips?
multiple surprise attacks?
multiple shrouded daggers?
multple (insert 90%) of the content of the game except for dedicated non-damaging cc)

yes, if five people coordinate five simultaneous attacks against you so that they aren't gonna conflict then you take all five... whether it be poison or almost anything else.

Should all these "five can coordinate" be similarly cut back like poisons?

this "many v one thing is some sort of boogeyman being throw out instead of saying "like almost every other attack power in the game"...

I really dont get it other than "we minmaxed and dont want something added that can steal our buffs so this sounds like a truthy counter argument"

Poisons will not only change the meta, they will make "metas" unreliable and combat very unpredictable and that seems to make a subset of folks unhappy.

me? I love it!!!

The difference between poisons and the various attack skills you listed is that poisons bring the potential possibility of coordinated debuff spamming a target, which will make outnumbered/solo play more difficult. This is different from the list of attacks you listed that primarily do damage with an occasional/minor side debuff.

it will be DIFFERENT, yes, but not nec more lethal.

IN GENERAL the buff in enchantments will make the offenses more lethal and posions will make the combat a lot more unpredictable but having poisons with a % chance of procing (not a guarantee), 10sec cooldown, etc "coordinated" isnt necessarily more lethal than 5 coordinated automatic skill debuff attack cc combos.

I would much rather endure 5 light attacks with less than half procing poisons than an ambush, a reaper's mark, and 3 stealth surprise strike auto-crits myself in an opening salvo. (Obviously depends on setup but you get the point.)

YMMV

I.m looking forward to poisons once they fix the lesser power with multi-effects thing. i expect maybe half my chars will use them regularly, others taking advantage of the seriously increased enchants.

timidobserver · May 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I haven't tested poisons at all, but can you really have 5 different poisons on you at one time? If so, you are right that they are potentially going to cripple solo/small scale play.

My understanding is each player can have one active poison and you can be affected by multiple poisons but forgive me if I am mistaken.

Hmmm that is going to be a pain. I do like the idea of the poison system, but I can definitely see myself only running in coordinated bomb groups or gank groups if running solo will subject me to multiple people applying multiple poison debuffs that disable my own buffs.

Are you intentionally skipping over the posts that have said that only ONE NAMED poison can be active at a time... meaning that if five enemy players are using xx poison against a player, only ONE of those poisons will impact the player- NOT all five. However, if five players are using five different named poisons, then yes, it appears it could put a person in pretty bad shape. Perhaps a solution is to make it so that only ONE poison can be active on any one person at a time.

Yes, I am intentionally ignoring those posts because they aren't what I am talking about. I have an issue with multiple poisons of different names impacting the same player not the same name.

Do you have an issue with multiple radiant opps affecting the same player?
Multiple Crushing shock?
Multiple snipes?
Multiple Ambush?
Multiple meteor?
Multiple cfrags?
multiple swallow soul?
multiple silver shards?
multip;e lava whips?
multiple surprise attacks?
multiple shrouded daggers?
multple (insert 90%) of the content of the game except for dedicated non-damaging cc)

yes, if five people coordinate five simultaneous attacks against you so that they aren't gonna conflict then you take all five... whether it be poison or almost anything else.

Should all these "five can coordinate" be similarly cut back like poisons?

this "many v one thing is some sort of boogeyman being throw out instead of saying "like almost every other attack power in the game"...

I really dont get it other than "we minmaxed and dont want something added that can steal our buffs so this sounds like a truthy counter argument"

Poisons will not only change the meta, they will make "metas" unreliable and combat very unpredictable and that seems to make a subset of folks unhappy.

me? I love it!!!

The difference between poisons and the various attack skills you listed is that poisons bring the potential possibility of coordinated debuff spamming a target, which will make outnumbered/solo play more difficult. This is different from the list of attacks you listed that primarily do damage with an occasional/minor side debuff.

it will be DIFFERENT, yes, but not nec more lethal.

IN GENERAL the buff in enchantments will make the offenses more lethal and posions will make the combat a lot more unpredictable but having poisons with a % chance of procing (not a guarantee), 10sec cooldown, etc "coordinated" isnt necessarily more lethal than 5 coordinated automatic skill debuff attack cc combos.

I would much rather endure 5 light attacks with less than half procing poisons than an ambush, a reaper's mark, and 3 stealth surprise strike auto-crits myself in an opening salvo. (Obviously depends on setup but you get the point.)

YMMV

I.m looking forward to poisons once they fix the lesser power with multi-effects thing. i expect maybe half my chars will use them regularly, others taking advantage of the seriously increased enchants.

Most decent players animation cancel, so you are going to be getting the poisons along with the surprise attacks combo. In PvP poisons will just present another tool to outnumber/gank squad people with. They will have little to no impact on larger groups.