Poisons, AoE Caps & Stacking Snare: Teaching players bullying is acceptable conduct by rewarding it.

Cathexis · May 2016

So... If 5 people are hitting you with 5 different poisons... They steal all your buffs and cripple all your casting pools?

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So now we have this on top of AoE caps and unbreakable stacking stuns.

I really hate saying it because it's an AvA combat videogame - believe me I struggle with the irony of pointing the finger on this one, but enough is enough. Something has to be said.

Every time I see the argument against solo or small group play, all I can think is mechanics like these are increasingly reinforcing bullying. They are teaching players that it's socially acceptable to hide in groups and outnumber opponents because if you do, your opponent will be unable to fight back.

Quite frankly, I can't believe that it's not a bigger issue that this is what the game is fostering in its social environment.

staracino_ESO · May 2016

This is (video game) war... not schoolyard recess. Superior numbers are one of the most surefire ways to win.

Cathexis · May 2016

staracino_ESO wrote: »

This is (video game) war... not schoolyard recess. Superior numbers are one of the most surefire ways to win.

As I said, I struggle with pointing the finger because it's a videogame, and I agree superior numbers is a strong strategy to win.

But rewarding numbers is different from using it as a strategy, and bullying behaviour is bullying, whether it's in a school yard or in a videogame. I think there's a difference between playing as a team to pool your assets, and being given special treatment so you can beat up on players more effectively as a group.

Also I should also preface my argument by saying this is in no way an easy line to draw - focus fire, for instance is a bullying mechanic, but crossfire in large scale combat is inevitable. Is focus fire counterable to some degree though by the individual? Most would argue yes.

timidobserver · May 2016

I haven't tested poisons at all, but can you really have 5 different poisons on you at one time? If so, you are right that they are potentially going to cripple solo/small scale play.

Cathexis · May 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

I haven't tested poisons at all, but can you really have 5 different poisons on you at one time? If so, you are right that they are potentially going to cripple solo/small scale play.

My understanding is each player can have one active poison and you can be affected by multiple poisons but forgive me if I am mistaken.

STEVIL · May 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

I haven't tested poisons at all, but can you really have 5 different poisons on you at one time? If so, you are right that they are potentially going to cripple solo/small scale play.

Just like 5 DIFFERENT enchants or 5 different dots or 5 different radiant boomo or 5 different cfrags or 5 different etc etc etc etc.

Poisons provide NAMED effects so they cannot stack 5 of the same from 5 different sources.
Poisons have a longer cooldown than enchants so a single attacker cannot stack 5 different on your quickly.

Poisons like the general enchant upgrade make combat more dangerous and that as a whole helps mobs vs one for the mobs but other than that the main real, underlying OMG factor for poisons driving the panic is...

Poisons allow enemies to strip carefully calculated buffs from optimized builds and so really trash meta minmaxing.

IMO

Ajax_22 · May 2016

The poisons are just plain garbage for PvP. They are the worst things added to this game since the Champion Point system. Which was the worst thing added to this game since

.

Poisons plus the insane cost increase is going to destroy Non Vet, and Non CP campaigns. The drain poisons have to go, or poisons need to be bared from Cyrodiil. I'd prefer the latter so that PvEers can have their cool toys without any impact on us.

Cathexis · May 2016

Ajax_22 wrote: »

The poisons are just plain garbage for PvP. They are the worst things added to this game since the Champion Point system. Which was the worst thing added to this game since .

Poisons plus the insane cost increase is going to destroy Non Vet, and Non CP campaigns. The drain poisons have to go, or poisons need to be bared from Cyrodiil. I'd prefer the latter so that PvEers can have their cool toys without any impact on us.

They don't even have to go, group mechanics just need to be counterable by the solo player. Period. There is no excuse for creating systems that essentially virtually victimize players. As a social practice it is ugly and reflects poorly on the series.

timidobserver · May 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I haven't tested poisons at all, but can you really have 5 different poisons on you at one time? If so, you are right that they are potentially going to cripple solo/small scale play.

Just like 5 DIFFERENT enchants or 5 different dots or 5 different radiant boomo or 5 different cfrags or 5 different etc etc etc etc.

Poisons provide NAMED effects so they cannot stack 5 of the same from 5 different sources.
Poisons have a longer cooldown than enchants so a single attacker cannot stack 5 different on your quickly.

Poisons like the general enchant upgrade make combat more dangerous and that as a whole helps mobs vs one for the mobs but other than that the main real, underlying OMG factor for poisons driving the panic is...

Poisons allow enemies to strip carefully calculated buffs from optimized builds and so really trash meta minmaxing.

IMO

Right, I get that a single attacker can't apply one poison multiple times. What I am referring to is multiple attackers. So ,if 10 enemies use 10 different poisons will you get 10 poisons applied to you when they attack you?

Cathexis · May 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I haven't tested poisons at all, but can you really have 5 different poisons on you at one time? If so, you are right that they are potentially going to cripple solo/small scale play.

Just like 5 DIFFERENT enchants or 5 different dots or 5 different radiant boomo or 5 different cfrags or 5 different etc etc etc etc.

Poisons provide NAMED effects so they cannot stack 5 of the same from 5 different sources.
Poisons have a longer cooldown than enchants so a single attacker cannot stack 5 different on your quickly.

Poisons like the general enchant upgrade make combat more dangerous and that as a whole helps mobs vs one for the mobs but other than that the main real, underlying OMG factor for poisons driving the panic is...

Poisons allow enemies to strip carefully calculated buffs from optimized builds and so really trash meta minmaxing.

IMO

Right, I get that a single attacker can't apply one poison multiple times. What I am referring to is multiple attackers. So ,if 10 enemies use 10 different poisons will you get 10 poisons applied to you when they attack you?

Provided they all proc, my understanding is yes.

Ajax_22 · May 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I haven't tested poisons at all, but can you really have 5 different poisons on you at one time? If so, you are right that they are potentially going to cripple solo/small scale play.

Poisons like the general enchant upgrade make combat more dangerous and that as a whole helps mobs vs one for the mobs but other than that the main real, underlying OMG factor for poisons driving the panic is...

Poisons allow enemies to strip carefully calculated buffs from optimized builds and so really trash meta minmaxing.

IMO

The exact opposite is currently happening in PTS dueling right now. High burst meta builds are almost unaffected as they can usually kill a target before the increased resource cost becomes noticeable. Sustain builds are being hit the hardest by the cost increase poisons.

In open world Cyrodiil the solo/small group players will be hit exponentially harder than larger groups. If your in a larger group and you are hit by multiple poisons you can either sit there heavy attacking, or retreat to the back lines of your group to recover. That is impossible in a small group.

One of the biggest things people seem to not consider is the effect these poisons have on Non CP campaigns. You can't take over a CP star worth of sustain from someone who doesn't have that CP star to take it from. BWB and Azura's will be completely broken by the drain poisons. It will be worse on the newer players. Just like when you could go into BWB with 500+ CP and roll over all the newer players.

Another major factor is there is no way to determine if you have been hit by a drain poison. Ultimately this will have little effect on PC because addons will made for it, but what about console players. Players have to be able to easily tell if their skills are going to cost 30% more, because you will have to play differently while you have a poison on you.

Toc de Malsvi · May 2016

Which makes it extremely rewarding to run with a group, especially so if you use any sort of communication to focus fire. Time will tell how heavily this actually impacts PVP but it really isn't that hard to see that it appears to be a bad idea. As far as I can tell, until they open up Arena and Battleground content ZOS is invested in discouraging small group or solo PVP play. Giving capture-able points in IC will bring more players into IC but it will do nothing to encourage small group play as without a cap on players in the zone it will still encourage zerg tactics with largest group wins dynamics.

Rune_Relic · May 2016

Ajax_22 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I haven't tested poisons at all, but can you really have 5 different poisons on you at one time? If so, you are right that they are potentially going to cripple solo/small scale play.

Poisons like the general enchant upgrade make combat more dangerous and that as a whole helps mobs vs one for the mobs but other than that the main real, underlying OMG factor for poisons driving the panic is...

Poisons allow enemies to strip carefully calculated buffs from optimized builds and so really trash meta minmaxing.

IMO

The exact opposite is currently happening on PTS dueling right now. High burst meta builds are almost unaffected as they can usually kill a target before the increased resource cost becomes noticeable. Sustain builds are being hit the hardest by the cost increase poisons.

In open world Cyrodiil the solo/small group players will be hit exponentially harder than larger groups. If your in a larger group and you are hit by multiple poisons you can either sit there heavy attacking, or retreat to the back lines of your group to recover. That is impossible in a small group.

One of the biggest things people seem to not consider is the effect these poisons have on Non CP campaigns. You can't take over a CP star worth of sustain from someone who doesn't have that CP star to take it from. BWB and Azura's will be completely broken by the drain poisons. It will be worse on the newer players. Just like when you could go into BWB will 500+ CP and roll over all the newer players.

Another major factor is there is no way to determine in you have been hit by a drain poison. Ultimately this will have little effect on PC because addons will made for it, but what about console players. Players have to be able to easily tell if there skills are going to cost 30% more, because you will have to play differently while you have a poison on you.

I guess we should have figured out ..ZOS has no concept of subtle.

Go big or go home.
Where does 'meaningful' sit on the scale between Godlike and non-existant

Gottbeard · May 2016

staracino_ESO wrote: »

This is (video game) war... not schoolyard recess. Superior numbers are one of the most surefire ways to win.

Yes but superior numbers is the advantage. ZOS is designing extra advantages for out numbering your opponent that compound with the already existing intrinsic advantage of out numbering your opponent. That is what the OP is calling foul play on. And it is a fair point.

NativeJoe · May 2016

staracino_ESO wrote: »

This is (video game) war... not schoolyard recess. Superior numbers are one of the most surefire ways to win.

And thats why there are AFK guiilds that log on to alts just to make another side of the alliance war pop cap and be down a raid group so the othersides can take whatever they want.

Cathexis · May 2016

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I haven't tested poisons at all, but can you really have 5 different poisons on you at one time? If so, you are right that they are potentially going to cripple solo/small scale play.

Poisons like the general enchant upgrade make combat more dangerous and that as a whole helps mobs vs one for the mobs but other than that the main real, underlying OMG factor for poisons driving the panic is...

Poisons allow enemies to strip carefully calculated buffs from optimized builds and so really trash meta minmaxing.

IMO

The exact opposite is currently happening on PTS dueling right now. High burst meta builds are almost unaffected as they can usually kill a target before the increased resource cost becomes noticeable. Sustain builds are being hit the hardest by the cost increase poisons.

In open world Cyrodiil the solo/small group players will be hit exponentially harder than larger groups. If your in a larger group and you are hit by multiple poisons you can either sit there heavy attacking, or retreat to the back lines of your group to recover. That is impossible in a small group.

One of the biggest things people seem to not consider is the effect these poisons have on Non CP campaigns. You can't take over a CP star worth of sustain from someone who doesn't have that CP star to take it from. BWB and Azura's will be completely broken by the drain poisons. It will be worse on the newer players. Just like when you could go into BWB will 500+ CP and roll over all the newer players.

Another major factor is there is no way to determine in you have been hit by a drain poison. Ultimately this will have little effect on PC because addons will made for it, but what about console players. Players have to be able to easily tell if there skills are going to cost 30% more, because you will have to play differently while you have a poison on you.

I guess we should have figured out ..ZOS has no concept of subtle.
Go big or go home.
Where does 'meaningful' sit on the scale between Godlike and non-existant

I think you are confusing godlike with fighting against a severe technical handicap.

If you tie your opponents hands behind their back before you fight them, it doesn't make you godlike, it just makes you some guy beating up a guy who can't fight back.

artal · May 2016

As player only interested in pvp who runs mostly solo or with 1 friend I'm really afraid that these poisons have game breaking potential. I never really said something like this, but if this turns out how I fear it might turn out I will probably quit game.

I don't see point in being so locked down not even being able to fight back.

STEVIL · May 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I haven't tested poisons at all, but can you really have 5 different poisons on you at one time? If so, you are right that they are potentially going to cripple solo/small scale play.

Just like 5 DIFFERENT enchants or 5 different dots or 5 different radiant boomo or 5 different cfrags or 5 different etc etc etc etc.

Poisons provide NAMED effects so they cannot stack 5 of the same from 5 different sources.
Poisons have a longer cooldown than enchants so a single attacker cannot stack 5 different on your quickly.

Poisons like the general enchant upgrade make combat more dangerous and that as a whole helps mobs vs one for the mobs but other than that the main real, underlying OMG factor for poisons driving the panic is...

Poisons allow enemies to strip carefully calculated buffs from optimized builds and so really trash meta minmaxing.

IMO

Right, I get that a single attacker can't apply one poison multiple times. What I am referring to is multiple attackers. So ,if 10 enemies use 10 different poisons will you get 10 poisons applied to you when they attack you?

Yes as long as none of the different poisons have same named effects. Its like EVERY OTHER ATTACK POWER IN THE GAME. If they apply named effects they dont stack. If they are truly different effects, they stack. As far as i know cc immunities etc still apply unless a specific effect removes them.

Again, translation, JUST LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE.

STEVIL · May 2016

I suggested a while back that instead of trying to make 1 on 10 winnable which would seem to mske 1 on 1 unwinnable, zos should apply a group fsctor.

If hit by more thsn x sources in a tivk, all dsmage is hslved.
If hit by more thsn 2x, alk damage is quartered,

If 3x damage is 10%

Spevific ZONES and events could have different X values.

This would discourage zergs in "patrol" zones where x=3
But alloe RAIDS where x=10
Etc etc

When you entered a pvp area, the x factor would apoear.

Stop trying to screw with fights at the powers level and just provide a dialable oversight factor that allows for customized scalsble conflicts.

Cathexis · May 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

I suggested a while back that instead of trying to make 1 on 10 winnable which would seem to mske 1 on 1 unwinnable, zos should apply a group fsctor.

If hit by more thsn x sources in a tivk, all dsmage is hslved.
If hit by more thsn 2x, alk damage is quartered,

If 3x damage is 10%

Spevific ZONES and events could have different X values.

This would discourage zergs in "patrol" zones where x=3
But alloe RAIDS where x=10
Etc etc

When you entered a pvp area, the x factor would apoear.

Stop trying to screw with fights at the powers level and just provide a dialable oversight factor that allows for customized scalsble conflicts.

I agree... Or let players invest into cp, gear, and skills that give them a fighting chance specifically when they are outnumbered.

timidobserver · May 2016

Cathexis wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I haven't tested poisons at all, but can you really have 5 different poisons on you at one time? If so, you are right that they are potentially going to cripple solo/small scale play.

My understanding is each player can have one active poison and you can be affected by multiple poisons but forgive me if I am mistaken.

Hmmm that is going to be a pain. I do like the idea of the poison system, but I can definitely see myself only running in coordinated bomb groups or gank groups if running solo will subject me to multiple people applying multiple poison debuffs that disable my own buffs.

ADarklore · May 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I haven't tested poisons at all, but can you really have 5 different poisons on you at one time? If so, you are right that they are potentially going to cripple solo/small scale play.

My understanding is each player can have one active poison and you can be affected by multiple poisons but forgive me if I am mistaken.

Hmmm that is going to be a pain. I do like the idea of the poison system, but I can definitely see myself only running in coordinated bomb groups or gank groups if running solo will subject me to multiple people applying multiple poison debuffs that disable my own buffs.

Are you intentionally skipping over the posts that have said that only ONE NAMED poison can be active at a time... meaning that if five enemy players are using xx poison against a player, only ONE of those poisons will impact the player- NOT all five. However, if five players are using five different named poisons, then yes, it appears it could put a person in pretty bad shape. Perhaps a solution is to make it so that only ONE poison can be active on any one person at a time.

NBrookus · May 2016

And each these named poisons can have multiple effects.

Honestly it all depends on how strong poisons are, are they halved in power in Cyro, and how effective counter poisons are. I can't imagine coordinated groups won't all be coordinating poisons. If you get focused you are likely to have your health, magicka and stam reduced and costs increased plus a few other nasty effects.

"Zerg up" seems the most likely counter-play.

timidobserver · May 2016

ADarklore wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I haven't tested poisons at all, but can you really have 5 different poisons on you at one time? If so, you are right that they are potentially going to cripple solo/small scale play.

My understanding is each player can have one active poison and you can be affected by multiple poisons but forgive me if I am mistaken.

Hmmm that is going to be a pain. I do like the idea of the poison system, but I can definitely see myself only running in coordinated bomb groups or gank groups if running solo will subject me to multiple people applying multiple poison debuffs that disable my own buffs.

Are you intentionally skipping over the posts that have said that only ONE NAMED poison can be active at a time... meaning that if five enemy players are using xx poison against a player, only ONE of those poisons will impact the player- NOT all five. However, if five players are using five different named poisons, then yes, it appears it could put a person in pretty bad shape. Perhaps a solution is to make it so that only ONE poison can be active on any one person at a time.

Yes, I am intentionally ignoring those posts because they aren't what I am talking about. I have an issue with multiple poisons of different names impacting the same player not the same name.

Mettaricana · May 2016

Kinda thought point of war was to win and the bigger better army usually wins or the smaller army needs to git guder. Poison or not its war not I'm telling the teach cuz I got beat up get some friends who can fight and Poison stack and whip them back.

TrueNord47 · May 2016

..... the pvp isnt designed for small scale so maybe stop trying to play like that and you know help your alliance? im sure they will make something for all you people who hate teamwork eventually. anybody who thinks they can run around solo in pvp is just asking for it.

Cathexis · May 2016

TrueNord47 wrote: »

..... the pvp isnt designed for small scale so maybe stop trying to play like that and you know help your alliance? im sure they will make something for all you people who hate teamwork eventually. anybody who thinks they can run around solo in pvp is just asking for it.

The phrase "anybody who thinks they can run around solo in PvP is just asking for it" is an exact example of the kind of bullying attitude these game mechanics are creating socially.

And running solo, prior to these mechanics, was very much a potential source of assistance for your alliance. Engaging seige lines solo BEFORE reinforcement arrived was one of my favourite pass times, and contributed hugely in delaying and sometimes even collapsing enemy seige lines. The assumption that being a solo player was ineffective is just hogwash, and it astounds me how many players have been brainwashed into believing the game has to be this way.

Mettaricana wrote: »

Kinda thought point of war was to win and the bigger better army usually wins or the smaller army needs to git guder. Poison or not its war not I'm telling the teach cuz I got beat up get some friends who can fight and Poison stack and whip them back.

As I said before, there is a difference between pooling your assets, and receiving game breaking bonuses for outnumbering opponents.

newtinmpls · May 2016

Cathexis wrote: »

But rewarding numbers is different from using it as a strategy, and bullying behaviour is bullying, whether it's in a school yard or in a videogame. I think there's a difference between playing as a team to pool your assets, and being given special treatment so you can beat up on players more effectively as a group..

Well I cannot argue with your logic.

Dyride · May 2016

This PVP was originally intended for all group sizes to contribute and make a difference even though it is a large scale Alliance vs Alliance game.

I personally run in a large raid (17-24 max) but also enjoy times running around in small groups of 3-5 people.

I rarely solo but could see how these poison effects would be incredible detrimental to that playstyle.

STEVIL · May 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I haven't tested poisons at all, but can you really have 5 different poisons on you at one time? If so, you are right that they are potentially going to cripple solo/small scale play.

My understanding is each player can have one active poison and you can be affected by multiple poisons but forgive me if I am mistaken.

Hmmm that is going to be a pain. I do like the idea of the poison system, but I can definitely see myself only running in coordinated bomb groups or gank groups if running solo will subject me to multiple people applying multiple poison debuffs that disable my own buffs.

Are you intentionally skipping over the posts that have said that only ONE NAMED poison can be active at a time... meaning that if five enemy players are using xx poison against a player, only ONE of those poisons will impact the player- NOT all five. However, if five players are using five different named poisons, then yes, it appears it could put a person in pretty bad shape. Perhaps a solution is to make it so that only ONE poison can be active on any one person at a time.

Yes, I am intentionally ignoring those posts because they aren't what I am talking about. I have an issue with multiple poisons of different names impacting the same player not the same name.

Do you have an issue with multiple radiant opps affecting the same player?
Multiple Crushing shock?
Multiple snipes?
Multiple Ambush?
Multiple meteor?
Multiple cfrags?
multiple swallow soul?
multiple silver shards?
multip;e lava whips?
multiple surprise attacks?
multiple shrouded daggers?
multple (insert 90%) of the content of the game except for dedicated non-damaging cc)

yes, if five people coordinate five simultaneous attacks against you so that they aren't gonna conflict then you take all five... whether it be poison or almost anything else.

Should all these "five can coordinate" be similarly cut back like poisons?

this "many v one thing is some sort of boogeyman being throw out instead of saying "like almost every other attack power in the game"...

I really dont get it other than "we minmaxed and dont want something added that can steal our buffs so this sounds like a truthy counter argument"

Poisons will not only change the meta, they will make "metas" unreliable and combat very unpredictable and that seems to make a subset of folks unhappy.

me? I love it!!!

ContraTempo · May 2016

We have been told that a poison with multiple effects will have the effect/duration of those effects reduced. I wonder if getting hit with multiple effects from different attackers will also reduce the effect/duration. It seems like a practical way to handle it.

This poison seems to help with control effects. I put it on my back bar so it won't proc before I need it and put me in a cooldown. Perhaps if something like this did a more general cleanse it would balance out some of the problem of getting hit with multiple effects.