Stamina NB: Redguard or Imperial?

Strider_Roshin · April 2016

Other

TheSpin wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

Both are very good, and you will do well with either. Imperial pulls slightly ahead IMO because of the HP buff. You still need to have about 20k HP buffed, and Imperial can get that without any HP enchants. Leaving you open to do full stamina and Robust enchants on your gear, adding to their already 12% stamina buff, which increases your DPS more.

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Nord

Excellent health recovery, max health, and damage mitigation

Only focusing on damage output will make you an easy kill.

Imperial has more than double the HP buff than Nord. And 4% damage mitigation is so puny that it's irrelevant.

If you're clueless about a race; then don't talk about them.

Nords have 9% max health buff, 6% damage mitigation from all sources, and 30% health recovery.

Also Redguard and Imperials have a 10% max stamina buff; not 12%

Im not clueless, Im just not at home, and confused the 10% stam buff with the 12% HP buff. And I ams till correct that Imperial is better for stamina DPS.

Sure if made a character and you were focused on PvE DPS, I can see how imperial would be better considering you have a tank for agro and a healer for keeping your health up. However if you're PvP focussed; like the OP is, Nords are better.

The reason? In Cyrodiil you take 50% less damage than enemy players, Nords take 56% less damage because of that passive. Healing is also reduced by 50%, but health regeneration isn't. With a 30% increase in health regeneration, my health recovery is more powerful than resolving vigor.

I hope this response isn't considered 'necroing' an old thread, but I was thinking of the race I want for my NB and I am very curious to know if these calculations are correct.

My main question (math story problem haha!)
If you take 50% less damage in Cyrodil...

An attack would normally do 100 damage, therefore in Cyrodil it would do 50 damage
As a Nord, would the reduction be calculated as a 6% reduction in the 100 damage that would be done outside of cyrodil (44 damage), or would the 6% reduction be calculated against to the 50 damage you actually take (47 damage)?

Has anyone crunched these numbers?

Have I crunched numbers? No, I can't give you the digits because I did not write them down, however let me tell you about the testing I did do. Both me and my cousin have stam Nightblades, and about 2 weeks ago we decided to do some testing to see what the optimal CP allocation would be at the 501 cap. So I logged into my level 46 DC Nightblade since he mirrors my main VR16 EP in terms of abilities, and CP but not gear (not going to waste molag kena, leki's focus, and the agility set on a level 46). So overall, in cyrodiil our characters were extremely similar. We used the same kind of weapons with the same traits, our CP was identical as well as our crit resistance. The main difference was that his surprise attack did 1,000 more damage than mine according to the tool tip. Wanna hear the surprising thing? When we exchanged hits, my attacks were doing more damage to him than his were to me. Now want to hear the best part? That was my level 46. My main VR16 Nord Nightblade does identical damage to his VR16 Imperial (he uses 1 piece blood spawn, and I use 2 pieces Leki's Focus in case you're wondering why he doesn't do more damage than I do). So in my opinion the Nord is superior to any max stat race since the damage exchange will be in the Nord's favor. If you're concerned about PvE, I've beaten VMSA, and I can kill the Blood Spawn in 78 seconds. Did I mention that I run 2H and Bow?

dodgehopper_ESO · April 2016

dancing.in.the.webeb17_ESO wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

That's a tough choice... Here to help you decide:

Imperial
....

Redguard
....

Khajit
....

Bosmer
.....

I'd hesitate between Redguard and Khajit, depends really on what you want to build. If your end-game build will be stacking stamina like crazy, you're probably better off with Redguard, otherwise, Khajit.

EDIT: Added bosmer

Orcs needed to add too, they are now also good stamina race

- Increases Max Health and Stamina by 6%
- Increases Health Recovery by 30%
- Reduces Sprint cost by 12% and increases Sprint speed by 10%
- Increases your damage with melee weapon attacks by 4%

I agree, Orc needs mention. Orc is Tanky but also has a very aggressive mobile profile. In many ways I think Orc is a better Imperial now.

EDIT: Woops, this an old thread, and I already did a much better assessment a few posts up.

emily3989 · April 2016

Other

edit. removed, did not see pvp focus.

Cogo · April 2016

Other

Blud wrote: »

PvP focus. Which race is better for stam NB and why?

Wrong all over. Sorcerer and Kajiit, if you want a NB stamina redguard.

mr_wazzabi · April 2016

Redguard

Remember that Imperials have no regen.
Redguards have the 9% regen AND stam return from melee. In combat they have the highest stam return in the game, even more than Bosmer.

Highest resource return and highest stam pool means highest dps potential and lowest likelihood of running out of resources in a fight.

Imperials do equal damage due to the stam pool, but will gas out in long fights and die because with no stamina, you can't attack, can't block, can't roll and can't break out.

Amdar_Godkiller · April 2016

Other

Maximum crit chance x maximum crit damage=Crit Ceiling

Khajit Nightblades are the only race/class that can reach it.

Oh, and stamina regen.

Just started one today.

All daggers

10% Stamina bonus comes out to only about 400 more damage.

100 CP Precise Strikes+hemmorage+7 Divine Shadow Mundus=~1.8x crit damage

With a Khajit NB 26000 stamina and 2500 Weapon damage you create more damage than other races with base crit and 40000 stamina + 4000 Weapon Damage.

dday3six · April 2016

Other

At the time of this poll I would've said Redguard, currently it's definitely Khajiit. Carnage is no longer broken, and a crit focus is better for overall damage output on a Stamina Nightblade. 5pc Night Mother's Grace is just that good. Reguard would still be a strong second, along with Imperial. Dark Brotherhood could shake things up, but it's doubtful.

EsoRecon · April 2016

Imperial

Imperial because of the 12% more hp. That comes in handy.

D0ntevenL1ft · April 2016

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Maximum crit chance x maximum crit damage=Crit Ceiling

Khajit Nightblades are the only race/class that can reach it.

Oh, and stamina regen.

Just started one today.

All daggers

10% Stamina bonus comes out to only about 400 more damage.

100 CP Precise Strikes+hemmorage+7 Divine Shadow Mundus=~1.8x crit damage

With a Khajit NB 26000 stamina and 2500 Weapon damage you create more damage than other races with base crit and 40000 stamina + 4000 Weapon Damage.

Except not on shields.

clayandaudrey_ESO · April 2016

Other

Khajiit all the way.

Septimus_Magna · April 2016

Redguard

Redguard would be my choice for a dps build.
For tanking I would go with Imperial though.

Blud · May 2016

Other

I wound up making a Khajiit and loving it.

lassitershawn · May 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

Both are very good, and you will do well with either. Imperial pulls slightly ahead IMO because of the HP buff. You still need to have about 20k HP buffed, and Imperial can get that without any HP enchants. Leaving you open to do full stamina and Robust enchants on your gear, adding to their already 12% stamina buff, which increases your DPS more.

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Nord

Excellent health recovery, max health, and damage mitigation

Only focusing on damage output will make you an easy kill.

Imperial has more than double the HP buff than Nord. And 4% damage mitigation is so puny that it's irrelevant.

If you're clueless about a race; then don't talk about them.

Nords have 9% max health buff, 6% damage mitigation from all sources, and 30% health recovery.

Also Redguard and Imperials have a 10% max stamina buff; not 12%

Im not clueless, Im just not at home, and confused the 10% stam buff with the 12% HP buff. And I ams till correct that Imperial is better for stamina DPS.

Sure if made a character and you were focused on PvE DPS, I can see how imperial would be better considering you have a tank for agro and a healer for keeping your health up. However if you're PvP focussed; like the OP is, Nords are better.

The reason? In Cyrodiil you take 50% less damage than enemy players, Nords take 56% less damage because of that passive. Healing is also reduced by 50%, but health regeneration isn't. With a 30% increase in health regeneration, my health recovery is more powerful than resolving vigor.

Nords are not better at surviving in PvP because passive mitigation is almost always inferior to active mitigation, which both redguards, imperials, and bosmer can do better. As a redguard, imperial, or bosmer, you can dodge roll more, have larger heals and shields (by virtue of having more stamina) and cast these heals and shields more. And then on top of having better active defenses they all do significantly more damage.

For purely absorbing damage, nords are better, and they make good PvE tanks (though imo still inferior to imperial) because of this.

Health regeneration is a horrible stat to invest in, and if your HP regen is returning more HP than resolving vigor, you must have invested significantly in it, meaning if you had instead invested in boosting your damage/heals your resolving vigor would be way better and outheal your HP regen by far.

Strider_Roshin · May 2016

Other

lassitershawn wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

Both are very good, and you will do well with either. Imperial pulls slightly ahead IMO because of the HP buff. You still need to have about 20k HP buffed, and Imperial can get that without any HP enchants. Leaving you open to do full stamina and Robust enchants on your gear, adding to their already 12% stamina buff, which increases your DPS more.

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Nord

Excellent health recovery, max health, and damage mitigation

Only focusing on damage output will make you an easy kill.

Imperial has more than double the HP buff than Nord. And 4% damage mitigation is so puny that it's irrelevant.

If you're clueless about a race; then don't talk about them.

Nords have 9% max health buff, 6% damage mitigation from all sources, and 30% health recovery.

Also Redguard and Imperials have a 10% max stamina buff; not 12%

Im not clueless, Im just not at home, and confused the 10% stam buff with the 12% HP buff. And I ams till correct that Imperial is better for stamina DPS.

Sure if made a character and you were focused on PvE DPS, I can see how imperial would be better considering you have a tank for agro and a healer for keeping your health up. However if you're PvP focussed; like the OP is, Nords are better.

The reason? In Cyrodiil you take 50% less damage than enemy players, Nords take 56% less damage because of that passive. Healing is also reduced by 50%, but health regeneration isn't. With a 30% increase in health regeneration, my health recovery is more powerful than resolving vigor.

Nords are not better at surviving in PvP because passive mitigation is almost always inferior to active mitigation, which both redguards, imperials, and bosmer can do better. As a redguard, imperial, or bosmer, you can dodge roll more, have larger heals and shields (by virtue of having more stamina) and cast these heals and shields more. And then on top of having better active defenses they all do significantly more damage.

For purely absorbing damage, nords are better, and they make good PvE tanks (though imo still inferior to imperial) because of this.

Health regeneration is a horrible stat to invest in, and if your HP regen is returning more HP than resolving vigor, you must have invested significantly in it, meaning if you had instead invested in boosting your damage/heals your resolving vigor would be way better and outheal your HP regen by far.

What you say, and what is true are two different things. I'm not going to keep repeating myself. If you want keep believing that the damage exchange is in your favor as a Redguard or an imperial, then it's more AP for me.

Derra · May 2016

Other

If you´re set on one of the human races i´d go with redguard.

Woodelf would be my personal choice. I love the little evil gnomes.

ArchAngeI-X · May 2016

Imperial

Personally I like imperial over redguard and I mainly pvp and do a little bit of PVE. I don't have any problems with resources or killing players, and the extra health sometimes saves me from poor proxy vicious bombs.

lassitershawn · May 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

Both are very good, and you will do well with either. Imperial pulls slightly ahead IMO because of the HP buff. You still need to have about 20k HP buffed, and Imperial can get that without any HP enchants. Leaving you open to do full stamina and Robust enchants on your gear, adding to their already 12% stamina buff, which increases your DPS more.

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Nord

Excellent health recovery, max health, and damage mitigation

Only focusing on damage output will make you an easy kill.

Imperial has more than double the HP buff than Nord. And 4% damage mitigation is so puny that it's irrelevant.

If you're clueless about a race; then don't talk about them.

Nords have 9% max health buff, 6% damage mitigation from all sources, and 30% health recovery.

Also Redguard and Imperials have a 10% max stamina buff; not 12%

Im not clueless, Im just not at home, and confused the 10% stam buff with the 12% HP buff. And I ams till correct that Imperial is better for stamina DPS.

Sure if made a character and you were focused on PvE DPS, I can see how imperial would be better considering you have a tank for agro and a healer for keeping your health up. However if you're PvP focussed; like the OP is, Nords are better.

The reason? In Cyrodiil you take 50% less damage than enemy players, Nords take 56% less damage because of that passive. Healing is also reduced by 50%, but health regeneration isn't. With a 30% increase in health regeneration, my health recovery is more powerful than resolving vigor.

Nords are not better at surviving in PvP because passive mitigation is almost always inferior to active mitigation, which both redguards, imperials, and bosmer can do better. As a redguard, imperial, or bosmer, you can dodge roll more, have larger heals and shields (by virtue of having more stamina) and cast these heals and shields more. And then on top of having better active defenses they all do significantly more damage.

For purely absorbing damage, nords are better, and they make good PvE tanks (though imo still inferior to imperial) because of this.

Health regeneration is a horrible stat to invest in, and if your HP regen is returning more HP than resolving vigor, you must have invested significantly in it, meaning if you had instead invested in boosting your damage/heals your resolving vigor would be way better and outheal your HP regen by far.

What you say, and what is true are two different things. I'm not going to keep repeating myself. If you want keep believing that the damage exchange is in your favor as a Redguard or an imperial, then it's more AP for me.

That wasn't what I was arguing, but lets get a bit more in depth here... the damage they are getting from 10% max stamina is dependent on how much base stamina they have before the boost. The point at which the damage exchange becomes favorable to them is when the 10% stam can net them at least 3600 stamina which means base stamina of 36,000 before racials, which is unlikely, so yes a damage exchange will typically favor you. You are right on this, but I never said you were wrong.

However, a redguard is also going to heal away damage they take faster than you, limiting your benefit from a damage exchange, and have more stamina to roll and cast abilities (if you are out of stamina, you are dead). You will have to invest in significantly more stamina regen or cost reduction to reach an acceptable level for your build then a redguard would, limiting the amount of damage bonuses you can have from gear/mundus compared to a redguard. Furthermore, your final bonus is unchanged by CP, while a redguard's will keep increasing in power as the CP cap goes up (as will their regen bonus up to a point, as will the relative effectiveness of their stamina bonus). So while a nord may win in a damage exchange, a redguard wins overall imo.

I still want to know how high your HP regen is to be able to outheal resolving vigor.

Strider_Roshin · May 2016

Other

@lassitershawn

Hmmm okay, we can talk about this a bit more in depth then. You see it's all in the context of PvP, and I know you know this but I'm repeating it in order to keep the information fresh on our mind. In PvP, our damage is cut in half and our healing is cut in half.

First let's talk about damage. I haven't tested the breaking point to which the extra stamina matches the mitigation that the Nords have; however, if you have 36000 stamina in PvP; you're going to be hurting somewhere; whether it is health, or some form of resource regen. Now, a viable amount of stamina that's a bit on the high side will be around 30k, and at that point the Nord will be dealing more damage to a redguard/imperial with an identical build than they would be doing to the Nord.

Now let's discuss healing. Okay now I use a 2H and bow combination, and I keep vigor on my bow bar with Rally on my main bar so if you're a 2H/DW user and you keep your vigor on your DW bar, it will obviously be higher than what mine is. Okay, my vigor when fully buffed heals me for 12,500 over 5 seconds. This equates to 6,250 over 5 seconds; which is 1250 health per second (not counting crits). Now my health regen as a Nord is 1129 with a purple regen drink. Now is my regen the equivalent of a Resolving Vigor? Heck no, however it is worth half the value of vigor, and it's constantly active; and it is not vulnerable to any defiles (the exception being the meat bag).

So now let's put this all together, for starters resource management isn't an issue when you're a Nightblade since we have Siphoning Attacks. As a Nord Nightblade with hunding's rage, molag kena, 2 leki, 5 agility, and 3 pieces of Robust agility rings that all have weapon damage enchants on them; my stamina goes up as I'm attacking with Siphoning attacks. Now in a practical PvP build the damage exchange will be in the Nord's favor as we have established. But the aspect where the Redguard will outperform will be healing. However, the difference of 28k to 30/31k stamina will be around 700 more healing in 5 seconds; which equates to 350; which equates to 70 more health per second. 70 more health per second is the equivalent of 140 additional regen. As a Nord you'll have on average around 264 more health regen, and that's always active.

So you see the damage exchange will be in the Nord's favor (the Nord will do more damage to his opponent than his opponent will do to him), the Nord's health regen outweighs the benefits of the additional healing you'll get from being a Redguard or an Imperial, with the damage reduction you'll have to heal less often than an Imperial or Redguard would have to (which means you'll have to spend less stamina), and with Siphoning Attacks your resource management should be excellent.

Now let me re-emphasize this point. All of this is dependent on being in Cyrodiil. In PvE the Reguard, and especially the Imperial outperforms the Nord; unless it's a Nord tank (no competition).

Resipsa131 · May 2016

Other

Since I like to use ranged on my Stamina NB in PvP I chose a Wood Elf. The Stamina, Regen, Extra damamge from cloak is pretty nice.

lassitershawn · May 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

@lassitershawn

Hmmm okay, we can talk about this a bit more in depth then. You see it's all in the context of PvP, and I know you know this but I'm repeating it in order to keep the information fresh on our mind. In PvP, our damage is cut in half and our healing is cut in half.

First let's talk about damage. I haven't tested the breaking point to which the extra stamina matches the mitigation that the Nords have; however, if you have 36000 stamina in PvP; you're going to be hurting somewhere; whether it is health, or some form of resource regen. Now, a viable amount of stamina that's a bit on the high side will be around 30k, and at that point the Nord will be dealing more damage to a redguard/imperial with an identical build than they would be doing to the Nord.

Now let's discuss healing. Okay now I use a 2H and bow combination, and I keep vigor on my bow bar with Rally on my main bar so if you're a 2H/DW user and you keep your vigor on your DW bar, it will obviously be higher than what mine is. Okay, my vigor when fully buffed heals me for 12,500 over 5 seconds. This equates to 6,250 over 5 seconds; which is 1250 health per second (not counting crits). Now my health regen as a Nord is 1129 with a purple regen drink. Now is my regen the equivalent of a Resolving Vigor? Heck no, however it is worth half the value of vigor, and it's constantly active; and it is not vulnerable to any defiles (the exception being the meat bag).

So now let's put this all together, for starters resource management isn't an issue when you're a Nightblade since we have Siphoning Attacks. As a Nord Nightblade with hunding's rage, molag kena, 2 leki, 5 agility, and 3 pieces of Robust agility rings that all have weapon damage enchants on them; my stamina goes up as I'm attacking with Siphoning attacks. Now in a practical PvP build the damage exchange will be in the Nord's favor as we have established. But the aspect where the Redguard will outperform will be healing. However, the difference of 28k to 30/31k stamina will be around 700 more healing in 5 seconds; which equates to 350; which equates to 70 more health per second. 70 more health per second is the equivalent of 140 additional regen. As a Nord you'll have on average around 264 more health regen, and that's always active.

So you see the damage exchange will be in the Nord's favor (the Nord will do more damage to his opponent than his opponent will do to him), the Nord's health regen outweighs the benefits of the additional healing you'll get from being a Redguard or an Imperial, with the damage reduction you'll have to heal less often than an Imperial or Redguard would have to (which means you'll have to spend less stamina), and with Siphoning Attacks your resource management should be excellent.

Now let me re-emphasize this point. All of this is dependent on being in Cyrodiil. In PvE the Reguard, and especially the Imperial outperforms the Nord; unless it's a Nord tank (no competition).

Only one class has siphoning attacks. Bottom line imo is that a redguard will always be killing enemies faster (even if vs a nord the damage exchange is in nord's favor slightly) and be able to sustain for much longer than a nord in the same build with the same skills slotted. Considering the massive importance of sustain in PvP, especially with new higher costs on skills and poisons that increase costs MASSIVELY coming up, I think races with a sustain bonus will be more important than ever.

If it were me, for PvP I would probably choose a bosmer or redguard for sustain bonuses (and bosmer has the additional stealth damage which has great synergy with NBs), but nord definitely isn't a bad race. I just think stronger active defenses and much better sustain beat passive defense. Ultimately it is a subjective decision because both races offer things that the other race cannot ever get without sacrificing elsewhere.

EDIT:
I forgot to include the % stamina boost from CP in my original break-even calculation, which if included brings the base (before racials) stamina required to only 30000 for a redguard to break even with a nord in terms of damage. This is easily achievable without sacrificing elsewhere.

EDIT #2:
Even if a redguard starts getting more out of the damage exchange at 30k base stamina, I suppose that the nord still has 9% more max HP and an HP regen buff which did seem not as bad as I thought initially especially if the nord is using tristat drinks like you. I'm still in favor of redguard, but I'm going to admit I attacked your argument a little too quickly without really looking at its merits.

Wuuffyy · May 2016

I would just like to say that NBs naturally have more health and w/ PvP and undaunted alongside it. You can have say like 24k health, 4.1k we dmg, 40k+ stam, w/ 50%+ base crit as redguard in PvP. As an imperial, like 27k+. I'd say for anything, redguard is acceptable, w/ imperial protecting you from being one shot in pve but still investing full points in stam. As it's only race, it helps but having anything that helps w/your DMG and/or sustain make everything else minimal. As a NB, you have Siphoning Attacks which really makes it all easy.