ZOS, PLEASE BALANCE WEAPON TRAITS!

susmitds · April 2016

In this patch, we are seeing a good effort to balance the traits.

BUT THAT BALANCE IS BADLY LOST ON SOME OF THE TRAITS!!!

Theoretical Gain in DPS by some traits.

For this comparison I am using legendary one handed swords as a basis.

Precise - 3.5% weapon and spell critical per weapon. 7% crit DW - This increases DPS by 3.5-4.5% depending on critical damage multiplier.
Nirnhoned - Increases weapon and spell damage of weapon by 11%. 11% increase in total damage of both weapons in DW - 3.5 - 5.5% increase in DPS depending on how abilities are scaling with weapon damage.
Sharpened - Increases Weapon and Spell penetration by 2580. 5160 with DW - This gives an almost flat 8% increase in damage.

TEST 1
Character - Stamina Sorcerer with 40 CP in each Ritual star and Lady stone mundus
Attack - Flurry
Target - Mammoth

Weapons with no trait - 12760 DPS
Precise - 13259 DPS - 3.902% increase
Nirnhoned - 13323 DPS - 4.407% increase
Sharpened - 13773 DPS - 7.939% increase

TEST 2
Character - Magicka Nightblade with 40 cp in each Apprentice star and Lady stone mundus
Attack - Swallow Soul
Target - Mammoth

Weapons with no trait - 10341 DPS
Precise - 10761 DPS - 4.113% Increase
Nirnhoned - 10798 DPS - 4.419% Increase
Sharpened - 11167 DPS - 7.98% Increase

As you can see from the tests, Sharpened trait is now much more effective than the other two.
In PvP, this trait will now bypass almost all of Light Armor defences. Add a major defence debuff to it and as far you are concerned, most light armor and medium armor users are running naked.
Sharpened should bypass around 1600 armor with each 1h weapons at a maximum. That will give it a DPS increase of 5%, which is still higher than Precise and Nirnhoned. Otherwise the purpose of balancing won't be solved at all.

And also there is:
Defending - 2580 physical and spell resistance. 5160 with DW
Now this is ridiculous. A weapon can now provide more defence than many single pieces of armor, which is totally ***.
Same as sharpened, the value of this trait should also be changed to around 1600 maximum per weapon.

Mojmir · April 2016

nirn should have never been as rare as it was to get.now it will drop more and it's weaker ZOS logic

susmitds · April 2016

Mojmir wrote: »

nirn should have never been as rare as it was to get.now it will drop more and it's weaker ZOS logic

BUT sharpened is easy to get and downright OP right now!!!
And if not changed after launch, there is no meaning using any thing else.

Mojmir · April 2016

that's what I'm saying,they're buffing nirn drops but they nerfed it's usage

susmitds · April 2016

@Wrobel , @ZOS_GinaBruno

Noobslayer3255 · April 2016

well..sharpened does absolutely nothing for you when attacking a shielded target, while nirn still does. Of course, this only matters for PvP

susmitds · April 2016

Noobslayer3255 wrote: »

well..sharpened does absolutely nothing for you when attacking a shielded target, while nirn still does. Of course, this only matters for PvP

True, but in that precise needs a small buff as well. Precise does not do any bonus on shields and adds the lowest DPS increase amongst all 3 traits.

BEZDNA · April 2016

These feedback is so poorly made. You only compare dps output from weapons, but don't talk about other sides.

Sharpend is clearly best trait chose if you only aim for best damage, howeawer Nirnhoned will increas you final spell/weapon damage, what will directly affect tooltip values of skills and it will not only affect damage, but also healing. So by chosing nirnhoned you get less dps increas then sharpend, but better hps.

Same goes for Precise trait, it is not noly result you avarage dps, but also affects your healing done.

Taking in mind everything sad above i don't see a reason of your complaints. Sharpened trait being a better option for dps increase is very obvious and logical choice.

susmitds · April 2016

BEZDNA wrote: »

These feedback is so poorly made. You only compare dps output from weapons, but don't talk about other sides.

Sharpend is clearly best trait chose if you only aim for best damage, howeawer Nirnhoned will increas you final spell/weapon damage, what will directly affect tooltip values of skills and it will not only affect damage, but also healing. So by chosing nirnhoned you get less dps increas then sharpend, but better hps.

Same goes for Precise trait, it is not noly result you avarage dps, but also affects your healing done.

Taking in mind everything sad above i don't see a reason of your complaints. Sharpened trait being a better option for dps increase is very obvious and logical choice.

That is exactly why I am still asking to keep the bypass to 3200 total which is 5% extra DPS and higher than the other two.
Now tell me honestly, do you really think nirnhoned or precise will now show up anywhere but in restoration staffs? Every single person will flock to sharpened to get the extra DPS because that is what counts the most in this game.

Minno · April 2016

BEZDNA wrote: »

These feedback is so poorly made. You only compare dps output from weapons, but don't talk about other sides.

Sharpend is clearly best trait chose if you only aim for best damage, howeawer Nirnhoned will increas you final spell/weapon damage, what will directly affect tooltip values of skills and it will not only affect damage, but also healing. So by chosing nirnhoned you get less dps increas then sharpend, but better hps.

Same goes for Precise trait, it is not noly result you avarage dps, but also affects your healing done.

Taking in mind everything sad above i don't see a reason of your complaints. Sharpened trait being a better option for dps increase is very obvious and logical choice.

It's also marginally better (by a thousand or so dmg by quick reference.) It was said by asayre that sharpened sucks against trash mobs due to the zero mitigation.

It is a very pure DPS trait but only in regards to armor.

xblackroxe · April 2016

susmitds wrote: »

BEZDNA wrote: »

These feedback is so poorly made. You only compare dps output from weapons, but don't talk about other sides.

Sharpend is clearly best trait chose if you only aim for best damage, howeawer Nirnhoned will increas you final spell/weapon damage, what will directly affect tooltip values of skills and it will not only affect damage, but also healing. So by chosing nirnhoned you get less dps increas then sharpend, but better hps.

Same goes for Precise trait, it is not noly result you avarage dps, but also affects your healing done.

Taking in mind everything sad above i don't see a reason of your complaints. Sharpened trait being a better option for dps increase is very obvious and logical choice.

That is exactly why I am still asking to keep the bypass to 3200 total which is 5% extra DPS and higher than the other two.
Now tell me honestly, do you really think nirnhoned or precise will now show up anywhere but in restoration staffs? Every single person will flock to sharpened to get the extra DPS because that is what counts the most in this game.

Precise is and will be the best trait for max DPS PvE builds. Especially on magicka where you run scathing mage. The thing is with all the debuffs on mobs the resistance is already nearly 0 so sharpen doesn´t help as much as you think.

And in pvp with a open stamina and magicka shield (though honestly I haven´t tried boneshield so no idea how effective it is) there is so little resistance to bypass anyway.

BEZDNA · April 2016

susmitds wrote: »

BEZDNA wrote: »

These feedback is so poorly made. You only compare dps output from weapons, but don't talk about other sides.

Sharpend is clearly best trait chose if you only aim for best damage, howeawer Nirnhoned will increas you final spell/weapon damage, what will directly affect tooltip values of skills and it will not only affect damage, but also healing. So by chosing nirnhoned you get less dps increas then sharpend, but better hps.

Same goes for Precise trait, it is not noly result you avarage dps, but also affects your healing done.

Taking in mind everything sad above i don't see a reason of your complaints. Sharpened trait being a better option for dps increase is very obvious and logical choice.

That is exactly why I am still asking to keep the bypass to 3200 total which is 5% extra DPS and higher than the other two.
Now tell me honestly, do you really think nirnhoned or precise will now show up anywhere but in restoration staffs? Every single person will flock to sharpened to get the extra DPS because that is what counts the most in this game.

Yeh, defenetly.
In PvE most likely you will want to go for Sharpend as a DD. (still need test to be done in specific builds like high WD stam builds, or scathering mage build).
In PvP sharpend is not that obvious chose already. It will be only good for gank or glass canon builds. In pvp you can get use of all traits, even new waighted, infused etc - that is alredy depends on your build.

Tavore1138 · April 2016

There are other armour debuffs even for solo players but especially in groups for pve and as others have pointed out apart from burst builds many other traits might find a home in PvP... Defending to counter sharpened for example...

However the point is interesting and worth raising.

Personally between the resource pool balancing, poisons and making many more traits valuable I am hoping there will be more build diversity.

f047ys3v3n · April 2016

Did some DPS testing on the different traits with a buddy. My findings were the same in ranking as yours but much more dramatic in magnitude probably because we tested on the first boss of VWGT. For reference she has about average spell resist for a boss and she was also affected with major breach throughout the test as in a normal boss fight. Sharpened was better than 2k dps better than either other trait. The others were quite close with nirn edging precise.

I have sold almost all the potent nirn that I had. Bummer I have to make new staves but honestly, stave mats are cheap so who cares about the new ones I have to make. Bad balancing decision though. Nirn was a rare and expensive ingredient, sharpened is common as can be. The change also destroys everyone's expensive weapons at a time that is not a scheduled obsolescence. Bad form. I am growing very used to bad form.

Do you guys even run basic numbers on this stuff? I almost think that maybe you thought spell damage nirn would be good because "spell damage is what they are always after." It is all about magnitudes though man. The spell damage amount of nirn is just not near the value the penetration used to have.

SublimeSparo · April 2016

Results of my basic tests;
Gold cp160 staffs
CP160 Giant in wrothgar
Hard cast frags

Nirnhoned 16984 crit
Sharpened 18048 crit.

With major breach up from elemental drain

Nirnhoned. 18507
Sharpened 18048

We can infer Giants have low spell resistance due to nirnhoned being more effective when major breach was active, and can be considered 'trash mob status' (giants obviously have spell resistance <=5600 )
Typically in gameplay it is of little point debuffing trash mobs with major Fracture/ Breach, so here generally Sharpened would be preferable and as we can see from mine and others' results as long as a targets resistances are high enough that debuffs do not render them with 0 resistance, ie bosses and elites then sharpened will do more damage than nirn

oibam · May 2016

should be:

sharpened - armor pen
nirn - spell pen + some little bonus (because it's nirn)

Derra · May 2016

susmitds wrote: »

Noobslayer3255 wrote: »

well..sharpened does absolutely nothing for you when attacking a shielded target, while nirn still does. Of course, this only matters for PvP

True, but in that precise needs a small buff as well. Precise does not do any bonus on shields and adds the lowest DPS increase amongst all 3 traits.

But precise adds defense for all healing mechanics (as does nirn now admittedly).

Armitas · May 2016

susmitds wrote: »

As you can see from the tests, Sharpened trait is now much more effective than the other two.
In PvP, this trait will now bypass almost all of Light Armor defences. Add a major defence debuff to it and as far you are concerned, most light armor and medium armor users are running naked.

Put on a maul and Heavy Armor is running naked. Penetration in this game has always been ridiculous. They really, really need to to fix it.

LorDrek · May 2016

Stamina test with svords, hammers or daggers. Best kombo is hammers/maul with precise?

susmitds · May 2016

Sharpened needs adjustments seriously.

DPS increase of 8% is just too much.
Increase of 5-5.5% is more logical, given that the other two affect DPS by 3.8% average(4% with CP).

susmitds · May 2016

susmitds wrote: »

Sharpened needs adjustments seriously.

DPS increase of 8% is just too much.
Increase of 5-5.5% is more logical, given that the other two affect DPS by 3.8% average(4% with CP).

@Wrobel

Rex-Umbra · May 2016

Agree alot of us wasted a lot on nirn if that is the case.

GaldorP · May 2016

Don't forget that giants and mammoths have very high Armor and Spell Resistance values. On regular monsters with low Armor/Spell Resistance, Sharpened will give you much less increased damage (only like 3-4.5%). Also, consider that most bosses in group content will have their Armor/Spell Resistance reduced from several debuffs already (Armor debuffs: Major Fracture, Minor Fracture, Crushing Glyph, Corrosive Armor for DKs that use it) which also makes Sharpened less efficient. If you have any points in a Champion passive that ignores a certain amount of enemy Armor/Spell Resistance or any passive from skills that adds Armor Penetration/Spell Penetration, that also makes Sharpened less efficient for Weapon Damage/Spell Damage respectively.

Sharpened is the best trait on high Armor/Spell Resistance targets if you don't have any other sources of high Armor Penetration or Armor Reduction/Spell Penetration or Reduction of Spell Resistance. Otherwise it isn't in my opinion. With Aggressive Warhorn up a lot of the time, Precise might still be the best trait for trials, Nirnhoned the best for 4-player groups where you have strong Armor/Spell Resistance debuffs or Penetration already.

Destruent · May 2016

You guys forget to factor in additional buffs to your critdamage modifier. Bump this up to ~220...230% and you have precise as your best option bc. it will give you 8.5...9% dmg-increase. Even with a 200% CDM you are at 7% damage increase. Factor in additional proccs like NMG or Scathing mage and precise wins again against sharpened. The imbalance is not as big as you may think.

Flak · May 2016

Actually it's balanced pretty good I think. Nirn is best for PvP, Precise for PvE-chars with a high Crit Modifier and sharpened is only better if there is enough Resistance left to ignore.
With buff to crushing enchant and poisons I think Precise will be the best in a well-organized group.

susmitds · May 2016

Destruent wrote: »

You guys forget to factor in additional buffs to your critdamage modifier. Bump this up to ~220...230% and you have precise as your best option bc. it will give you 8.5...9% dmg-increase. Even with a 200% CDM you are at 7% damage increase. Factor in additional proccs like NMG or Scathing mage and precise wins again against sharpened. The imbalance is not as big as you may think.

With all crit modifiers(NB/Templar passive+ Minor Force+ Major Force+CP) precise reaches 8.5% and that too only for a limited time.
But yeah, a well organized group with several crit. build DD will make better use of precise. But for every other case sharpened is better.

Destruent · May 2016

susmitds wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

You guys forget to factor in additional buffs to your critdamage modifier. Bump this up to ~220...230% and you have precise as your best option bc. it will give you 8.5...9% dmg-increase. Even with a 200% CDM you are at 7% damage increase. Factor in additional proccs like NMG or Scathing mage and precise wins again against sharpened. The imbalance is not as big as you may think.

With all crit modifiers(NB/Templar passive+ Minor Force+ Major Force+CP) precise reaches 8.5% and that too only for a limited time.
But yeah, a well organized group with several crit. build DD will make better use of precise. But for every other case sharpened is better.

That's exactly what i said.
So for critbuilds-->precise
noncritbuilds-->sharpened
pvp -->nirn when fighting against shielded targets

not that bad imo.

btw. what's that "limited time" you speak about?

OrphanHelgen · May 2016

First of all, Im not sure here but I think you can use too much armor reduction debuffs on a mobs, so that sharpened weapon dont have any effect at all.
In our raid, we have 4 types of armor reduction on a boss:
Minor fracture debuf
Major fracture debuf
Night mother set
And reduce targets armor enchant in weapon

If this is enough to almost reduce targets armor to nothing, sharpen is not good at all.

Then we have crit buffs, thats buffing your crit dmg, for example warhorn.
Then we have passives called exploitation from sorcs, and the passives from nightblades, giving group crit chances.

This setup I just wrote about, gives a precice weapon more valure then sharpened.

If you are testing for pvp only, then I think clear answer is sharpened it best, but if have always been like that anyway, specially with the impen trait everyone are running.

But for pve, we need our crits, so this looks balanced to me

Different traits , different playstyles.